Selects: How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work

Conversion therapy is a misguided attempt by religious zealots to convert people from gay to straight. News flash - it doesn't work. Learn all about this abhorrent practice in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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  Hey, everybody. You ever show up late to the game and your friends have already saved your seat and your drink and even a plate? Well, that's looking out, and that's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know that staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T: Connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Just visit att.com/guarantee for details. Good day, everyone. This is Chuck here on a Saturday with a select episode about conversion therapy. Boo. And you know what? Regardless of what you think about conversion therapy, it doesn't work.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  And so that's why this episode is titled "How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work" from November 2019. And if you're wondering before you listen, what is conversion therapy? That's when parents try to make their LGBTQ, let's just put it in that whole bucket, child not that. And it's just not possible because that's who they are. So I hope you enjoy this episode, and if you don't, keep it to yourself.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W., Chuck Bryant. There's guest producer Josh over there. Don't be confused, everybody. There are more than one Josh in the world.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  It's nice to hear you finally admit that.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  It's taken a long time. A lot of therapy.

• 2:47Speaker 04

  Hey, nice segue.

• 2:50Josh Clark?

  It's like a short stuff. I'm like, let's get to it. Let's get going.

• 2:53Speaker 04

  Well, I have a COA to issue.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  You know what cracks me up is people who are still like, what does that mean?

• 3:00Speaker 04

  You figure it out. You can email us.

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Eventually, some people will.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, so my COA is just a personal COA that I'm going to try and just disguise my disdain for this entire topic.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  OK.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  But I might not do a great job about it.

• 3:14Josh Clark?

  Well, you've already shown your hand.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  All right, good. That's my COA.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, I don't think there's too many stuff you should know, listeners, who are probably into this.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, but part of the problem is, we'll see later in this episode, is part of the problem with conversion therapy's coverage in the media.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Is that it has largely been fairly even-handed and described as like, this controversial therapy, and not said, this scam and this junk science fraud perpetrated by zealots.

• 3:48Josh Clark?

  Super harmful.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  So that's where I am.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  You know, that stuck out to me, too, that in the late 90s, we'll talk about it, especially when it was treated even-handedly.

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  And it made me think, like, we should do an episode on that. Like, should the media treat all sides of an issue equally? And if it does, does that just perpetuate ignorance? Or if it doesn't, does that support fascism?

• 4:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  Like, it's a hornet's nest. I really think we should do it sometime.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  It is. That's a good call.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  Thank you, Charles.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  I don't know how we... I mean, I guess it could be researched.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Surely, somebody's done a think piece on it that we can springboard off of. You know?

• 4:33Speaker 04

  A think piece.

• 4:34Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Those are great.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  That's what we do most of our research on, is think pieces.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  This is from one of our great writers, Julia Layton. And she put this, a lot of this stuff together for us.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she did a good job on this.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  I like the additional histories you found out, though.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because this, so we'll define it first, and then we'll talk about some histories. But this stuff goes back way further than you would think. But what we're talking about today is called conversion therapy, reparative therapy, ex-gay therapy, where...

• 5:08Speaker 04

  Reparative therapy is trademarked, by the way, we should say.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  Well, you couldn't hear it, but under my breath, I said, "T."

• 5:15Speaker 04

  More like TS.

• 5:17Josh Clark?

  It was, yeah, it was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Nicolosi.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Senior. So, what conversion therapy is probably what we're gonna mostly call it, though. What it's, what it is, is it's an alleged psychological theory and practice that is based on the idea that all people are born heterosexual.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  And because of certain, certain events.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Past traumas, usually.

• 5:51Josh Clark?

  Traumas typically, but also the family dynamics.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:56Josh Clark?

  Plays a huge role.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  People who would otherwise are meant to be heterosexual can be accidentally steered into homosexuality.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  And therefore can be, or purposefully steered back.

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  Right, cured.

• 6:09Speaker 04

  Yes, cured.

• 6:10Josh Clark?

  Of being gay.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  Right, back to the righteous land of heterosexuality.

• 6:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And as you can imagine, that this is a very popular with the fundamentalist Christian right.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  And, I mean, like, that's not even, like, a guess, like, overtly is. They've adopted and taken on ex-gay, the ex-gay movement, as, as basically one of the, what's it called, an attempt pole, a temp post?

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  One of the planks in the, in the Christian rights platform for social change.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Oh, it is a, it was officially part of the 2016 Republican Party platform, even.

• 6:51Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  Wait, the whole RNC?

• 6:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, which has been called, the 2016 platform has been called, uh, by far the most anti-LGBTQ platform in the nation's history.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  Wow. I mean, yeah, if that's a plank in the party's platform, that's pretty significant. Like, they don't throw just anything in there.

• 7:10Speaker 04

  No, they don't.

• 7:11Josh Clark?

  So, um, with the, with, with, um, the ex-gay movement and, uh, conversion therapy, I saw it described, at least back in the late 90s, as a front in the culture war that's as strong and as significant as abortion. Like, the, the, the Christian right, in particular, is, has basically dedicated itself to stamping out gayness and by do, by converting gay people to, to straightness. The problem is, is there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that that is even possible.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Right. And the problem is, when you try and stamp out gayness, that creates a good beat that you can dance to.

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  It makes that sound and...

• 7:57Speaker 04

  They're like, "No, no, no, no, no. Stop stamping."

• 7:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 7:59Speaker 04

  I had, actually, I went to, well, should I say this?

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Sure. Why not? Because this is the truth. I went to a church camp once when I was a youth.

• 8:07Josh Clark?

  Well, I figured a story or two, like, this we're getting.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  That they talked about, uh, stomping your feet to the music or whatever they were playing, and they literally said, "Don't alternate feet, because that's too close to dancing."

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  Right?

• 8:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  And these weren't like, uh, I mean, these are pretty mainstream Baptist church camps. It wasn't like I went to some...

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  Snake handling thing?

• 8:29Speaker 04

  No, not at all.

• 8:30Josh Clark?

  We did a really good episode on that.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was a good one. So, anyway, stomp your feet, everybody. Just don't alternate.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  So, you stomp them both at once? Because that's...

• 8:41Speaker 04

  No, just stomp one foot. Just stomp your right foot.

• 8:43Josh Clark?

  I was gonna say, that's just jumping lightly. Okay, so, that's what we're talking about, is conversion therapy. And like I said, it, it, um, became part of the, uh, Christian right's kind of philosophy and part of their, their culture war, the culture war they're fighting. Um, but it goes back way further than that, than, I think it was the late 90s when the right kind of adopted it. Um, as a matter of fact, like, as, into the 19th century... There were people who subscribed to this, but they were all psychologists. This is back in the time when you could be a ghost investigator and say, "I'm a psychologist." This is the times when you could say, you know, "This cigar reminds you of your mother." You know what I'm saying?

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  And you could be a psychologist. You could be a father of psychology at that point.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. You dug up a great article from history.com called "Gay Conversion Therapy Is Disturbing: 19th Century Origins" by Erin Blakemore. And...

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  Made a nice attribution, Chuck.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, Erin wrote a great article. And in it, she talks about in 1899, this hypnosis... Well, again, in the days where you could be a hypnotist and be a legitimate scientist at the same time.

• 9:58Josh Clark?

  Should I get into stage shows or psychology?

• 10:01Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 10:02Josh Clark?

  Maybe both.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  Where's the money? But he was German, of course, and he claimed to have turned a gay man straight after 45 hypnosis sessions and some other therapies. And that's sort of the first evidence of what we would later call conversion therapy, starting up.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  Although I'm sure even before that, people, they probably didn't call it conversion therapy, but if you were an effeminate man, you were, no doubt, probably beaten by your parents and shunned by your community.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  Right. I think one of the other things, it's kind of a hallmark of this long tradition of converting people from being gay to straight or trying to, is this idea that there's something wrong with you if you're gay.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  And that that idea can actually become hung up on the individual, the gay person, so that they actually do seek out help

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:54Josh Clark?

  in becoming straight. But the problem is, is in seeking that help, they're going to be frustrated and they're ultimately probably going to be...

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  They're gonna have feelings of shame, guilt, inadequacy, that they're not capable of helping themselves. There's something wrong with them. Why can't they just be straight, kind of thing? And then if you're a minor and your parents are forcing this on you, then that raises a whole other can of worms of ethical dilemmas.

• 11:22Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 11:23Josh Clark?

  But even from the outset, there were probably people who sought out hypnotists and other psychologists.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:29Josh Clark?

  For help. It wasn't just people walking around kidnapping gay people and taking them off the street and trying to convert them.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Right. It could have very well been some man that's like, wait a minute, I don't feel normal feelings because I'm looking at Joe out there in the field and things are happening.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  If you know what I mean, doc. And they're like, well, come on in.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  Watching him swing that scythe and take his sweaty shirt off, wring it over his face. That kind of thing.

• 11:55Speaker 04

  Right. So just sit down and follow the wristwatch with your eyes.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Or I guess the pocket watch. That'd be a weird technique.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just move.

• 12:03Speaker 04

  Swing your arm.

• 12:04Josh Clark?

  I'm moving my wristwatch.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  But from that samehistory.com article, there she talks about some of the early attempts, like with electroconvulsive therapy.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  Lobotomies. I think we even talked about some of the lobotomies episode.

• 12:17Josh Clark?

  Man, they would give you a lobotomy for anything.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Oh, sure.

• 12:20Josh Clark?

  What about testicular transplantation?

• 12:22Speaker 04

  Right, because that was a theory from a doctor, an endocrinologist named Eugene Steinach, who thought that your testicles were the root of the problem.

• 12:32Josh Clark?

  Well, a lot of people did.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  There was like a

• 12:35Speaker 04

  You could have gay testicles, literally, and they would swap them out for straight ones.

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Right. And there's no, I could not find any evidence, one way or the other, that any of these testicular transplants worked or were successful.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  I don't think they were.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  But I didn't see anything that said, like, all of them just failed or whatever. But like, what happened? Did they just shrivel up and fall off or something? So?

• 12:56Speaker 04

  Do you mean if it actually? Like medically took to the body?

• 13:00Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, that's what I mean.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Okay. Saying like, did it convert them? Did it work?

• 13:05Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  No.

• 13:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 04

  That's the answer. But yeah, I didn't know that you could in the 1920s have a testicle transplant successfully.

• 13:13Josh Clark?

  That's what I'm saying. Like I surely, I mean, at some point, and we must have talked about this in the Michael Dillon episode.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  We talked about the, I don't think it was, but it wasn't a transplant. It was just a straight up removal, an orchiectomy, I believe.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Castration.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  So, but at some point, testicles have been transplanted onto a person successfully. When did that happen is my question?

• 13:39Speaker 04

  It probably did to a dog first.

• 13:41Josh Clark?

  Right. But I mean, think about it, like if it didn't work, well, sorry, you're castrated now.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, they probably didn't say sorry, though.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  No, but we took your gay testicles, the heterosexual testicles just didn't pan out.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:53Josh Clark?

  But now you don't have any testicles, gay or otherwise.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  That's right. Some of the other awful techniques that they would use back in the day were chemicals that they might have to make you retch and vomit when you look at, you know, pictures of people of the same sex.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  Yep, it's called covert sensitization.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Yeah?

• 14:13Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Or if you're cross-dressing, maybe, same thing.

• 14:15Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  Look in a mirror and be disgusted with yourself and retch and vomit.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and very sadly, if you have, say, like a, someone you're in a relationship with that you love, they might show you a picture of that person and carry out aversive therapy or aversive conditioning.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  What's weird, as you said, these are, these are things they used to carry out. From what I've seen, this stuff still goes on today.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, some of it.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  So, what we're talking about, though, back in the 19th and most of the first half or so of the 20th century, this was all like the domain of psychology. And then eventually, gay psychologists and other straight psychologists too were basically like, this is wrong. Like, the science is not adding up. This is just incorrect.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, there were medical doctors too, though. It wasn't just psychologists.

• 15:12Josh Clark?

  Right, sure. So eventually, in 1973, the American Psychological Association said, hey, big news. We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  Right. And a certain part of the population went, yeah, it's 1972. Why did it take this long?

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. But that was a big deal. And at that point, psychology mostly abandoned the idea that being gay was a disorder of any kind. And therefore, there was no point in researching how to cure someone of being gay. And so it turned its back on this whole history of...

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Conversion.

• 15:52Josh Clark?

  Conversion. But it didn't fully die away. And I believe, starting in like the 80s, the Christian right started to kind of pick up on it and kind of breathe new life into it again.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 16:07Josh Clark?

  Think we should take a break?

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. That's a robust and a half setup.

• 16:12Josh Clark?

  Is that...oh, I thought we were already into it. Oh, my gosh.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  No, it wasn't just the setup. It was more. You're right. We'll be right back.

• 16:32Speaker 05

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• 17:52Speaker 04

  All right, so let's talk a little bit about, because there's a couple of, a couple of schools of thought here. And I hesitate to one to call the one more bona fide. But, you know, there's conversion therapy that can happen at a licensed therapist's office. And there's conversion therapy that can happen in, you know, somebody's basement or the basement of a church.

• 18:17Josh Clark?

  I was gonna say basement, too.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, or a room, doesn't have to be a basement.

• 18:20Josh Clark?

  I know, but a basement makes it seem more sinister.

• 18:24Speaker 04

  That's probably why I said it. So there are two sort of ways that can happen. We're going to talk a little bit about the first way, the patented way, reparative therapy trademarked by Joseph Nicolosi, Sr.

• 18:40Josh Clark?

  That guy doesn't even get the Italian accent, man, and I don't blame you.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  He doesn't. Which we should say, by the way, in July of this year, Amazon stopped carrying his works on their website.

• 18:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they considered them...

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  That they promoted fraud.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 18:59Josh Clark?

  Which we'll get to.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, which is interesting.

• 19:01Josh Clark?

  But this guy is like a psychologist.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:04Josh Clark?

  He's a trained psychologist who basically said, I'm gonna take everything I learned and direct it toward curing gay people of being gay.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know much about, do you know much about his religiosity, or?

• 19:15Josh Clark?

  I think he was Jewish.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  And born in Brooklyn, from what I understand. I read a really, really great article, not a think piece, but a memoir, in The American Prospect.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  American Prospector?

• 19:28Josh Clark?

  From 2012, yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  That's different.

• 19:31Josh Clark?

  They're gold. By Gabriel Arana.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 19:35Josh Clark?

  It's called My So-Called Ex-Gay Life. It's definitely worth reading, but it's a great look at conversion therapy, but also is like overlaid with his like personal experience with it.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Okay. At any rate, his contention was that, like we said, you develop homosexuality, or homosexual feelings at least, because of a result of environmental conditions, childhood traumas, and they call it same-sex attraction, SSA, and that could stem, in his opinion, from a few different things. Desire for adventure, peer acceptance, loneliness or boredom or curiosity, approval or affection from males. A lot of this is centered on men, although it's certainly, women have been involved in this as well.

• 20:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we'll get to that.

• 20:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, but a lot of them, a lot of this over the years is making gay men straight.

• 20:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, I see what you mean, yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  But it's not exclusive to that.

• 20:31Josh Clark?

  No, it's not.

• 20:32Speaker 04

  General rebellion, which is pretty funny, and then sexual molestation by another male.

• 20:40Josh Clark?

  And I think that is a very, like, I think that, the idea that that leads to being gay is very widespread in culture, well beyond the Christian right or people who believe in conversion therapy. The idea that if you're sexually abused by a man or somebody of your same sex, you become gay.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:59Josh Clark?

  Which is just wrong. But I think a lot of people still believe that. I know, that's what I thought when I was a kid.

• 21:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's not right.

• 21:06Josh Clark?

  Well, no, it's utterly wrong, but yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 04

  And the whole basis of Nicolosi's theory, he takes back to a study from 1992 called "Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents." And this was an actual study from the Journal of Pediatrics that looked at patterns of sexual orientation in high school students in Minnesota. And what they found out was that younger teens in Minnesota in this study were more likely to express sexual confusion about their orientation when they were younger. And as they grew older, they were less confused about their sexual identity and orientation.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  Right, and that's a legit study.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:46Josh Clark?

  And I think that probably anyone who's ever been an early teenager and a late teenager can be like, "Uh, that sounds about right."

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 21:54Speaker 04

  But the extrapolation that Nicolosi did was what the problem is.

• 21:59Josh Clark?

  Right, so Nicolosi was saying like, yes, that shows that like you're you're in a dangerous place earlier on, and that if a couple of things happen in a certain way, you can be veered off of this natural path toward heterosexuality into homosexuality.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  Right, and also more dangerously, that means we gotta get them while they're young.

• 22:20Josh Clark?

  Right, so one of the other things that he's he really based his practice on was this family triad of a domineering, over-attendant mother, a passive detached father, and a sensitive child.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Boogeynights.

• 22:39Josh Clark?

  In, kind of, in, um, that was a good one. In that, that, um, that triangle, like, you would, like, almost certainly have a gay kid.

• 22:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:51Josh Clark?

  If somebody didn't intervene. So he, he decided, like, this was, his career was intervening in that kind of stuff. But that, in and of itself, has never been proven to, um... Create gay kids.

• 23:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  Like whether you believe in conversion therapy or not, if you have a domineering mother and absent father and you're like a sensitive type who likes dolls even, doesn't mean you're gonna turn gay.

• 23:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:14Josh Clark?

  This is the basis of that, though, is that yes, you will turn gay. And still to this day, this idea is allowed to live because science has never fully satisfied the question, like, are we born gay? Do we develop being gay? And it looks like it's on a pretty strong track toward a genetic basis of homosexuality.

• 23:35Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  But it's still, nothing's definitive, and so people can say, well, maybe we do develop, you know.

• 23:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  In adolescence, you know, being gay or whatever, because science has not filled this void quite yet.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah, and the way Nicolosi would write about this stuff and describe it is in a very sort of professional innocuous type way, where a casual reader might say, well, this seems totally valid and above board.

• 24:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, a Newsweek reader.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:03Josh Clark?

  Or an Oprah viewer.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  That's right. This is, this is one of the things, I think this is from one of his books, and this is how he describes the relationship to, from patient to therapist. The client has come to the therapist seeking assistance to reduce something distressing to him, and the RT psychotherapist agrees to share his professional experience and education to help the client meet his own goal, his own goal. The therapist enters into a collaborative relationship, agreeing to work with the client to reduce his unwanted attractions and explore his heterosexual potential, which, again, it seems very innocuous, and there are plenty of cases where a grown man of his, or woman of their own volition, goes and seeks this out.

• 24:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  But what they don't say is, what happens many times, is a parent forces their young child to do this.

• 24:53Josh Clark?

  No, that's a big one.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  It's a big one. In this, that American Prospect magazine, the author was like, in his early teens when he went to Nicolosi's therapy, but he said everybody else in the group was in their like 40s or 50s.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  How interesting.

• 25:09Josh Clark?

  So it was definitely both.

• 25:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:10Josh Clark?

  But there's something here that's really important, because like you said, if you just read this stuff, it does sound innocuous, it's all very much based on things like cognitive behavioral therapy, like stuff that works, which means that this works in a weird, twisted way, which we'll talk about, but not in the way it's ultimately meant to. It works in a bent way.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  Do you want me to explain now? I feel like I should.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  I take issue with the word works at all. There are situations where it might prevent someone from acting on a homosexual impulse.

• 25:43Josh Clark?

  That's what I mean.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that doesn't change the nature of their sexuality.

• 25:48Josh Clark?

  No, no, right. And ultimately, preventing someone or training someone to not act on their sexuality is damaging in and of itself.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:58Josh Clark?

  And causes all sorts of other problems.

• 26:00Speaker 04

  But maybe good enough for a really religious family.

• 26:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  You know?

• 26:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, that's what I read is that over time, as the Christian right adopted the idea of, you know, championing the ex-gay movement, that part of that was accepting gay people.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  Who refrained from gay sex.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:19Josh Clark?

  So if you were like, "I'm gay, I'm never gonna be straight, I tried."

• 26:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:23Josh Clark?

  "But I don't have sex with men."

• 26:25Speaker 04

  But I won't commit the sin of...

• 26:26Josh Clark?

  You would be welcome in church.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So what I was saying, though, is with with Nicholas's thing, there's something fundamentally wrong with it. And that if somebody came to you and said, "I'm tired of being white."

• 26:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:39Josh Clark?

  Or black, or Hispanic.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  Or straight.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  "I can't stand it."

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  You wouldn't say, "Oh, well, let's figure out how to make you not black, or white, or Hispanic, or straight."

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  "Let's figure out how to change you." They would say, any therapist worth their salt would say, "Well, no, there's a lot of great things about being white, or black, or Hispanic, or straight, and let's focus on that so that you can own your identity."

• 27:02Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:02Josh Clark?

  The, like, conversion therapy does the opposite, says, "Yes, let's figure out how to get the gay out of you."

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  "Let's change your identity because this group of society has said that it's unacceptable."

• 27:15Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  And that is an extraordinarily damaging position to come from, and that is the basis

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  of conversion therapy.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and as we'll see later on, the AMA's official stance is that it is, and we'll read the quote later, that it is a damaging prospect.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:31Speaker 04

  And creates real harm.

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  An American prospector.

• 27:35Speaker 04

  So this approach by Nicolosi has four steps to it. The first one is interesting because it's the disclosure of the therapist's personal, professional, philosophical, and religious views on homosexuality, which includes, Nicolosi says, "The gay affirmative therapist also discloses his philosophical views to the client, but from a gay affirmative perspective." Does he just put that in there to like cover his bases?

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  No, it's true, though.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Because you wouldn't send your son or daughter to a gay affirmative therapist to convert them.

• 28:14Josh Clark?

  Into, right. I think this is what he's saying. You've been to therapy before, right?

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 28:21Josh Clark?

  Have you ever noticed that when you first, your first session, the therapist tells you a lot about themselves and what they think about mental health or life or whatever?

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'm always like, "Wait a minute, what about my problems?"

• 28:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I thought we were talking about me.

• 28:31Speaker 04

  I'm getting charged for this?

• 28:33Josh Clark?

  I don't care about your family. That's what he's saying, that they do, but because this is about being gay, that's what they're going to talk about, is their views or whatever.

• 28:45Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 28:46Josh Clark?

  They're gonna share their opinions of it and that they think that there's problems with it.

• 28:51Speaker 04

  You know what my line is at the therapist when they do all that stuff? I'm like, "Great, that's really interesting." At the end, I'm like, "You wanna start the clock now?"

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  Right. Nice. Either that or I can prorate.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  Number two of the four steps is encouragement of the client's inquiry. So basically, asking the client the questions, examining their feelings, to try and discover like what lies beneath.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Number three, resolution of past trauma, if it is in fact one of the reasons they suspect this person has...

• 29:28Speaker 04

  Has gone down the road to homosexuality.

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  And then, um, education regarding features of homosexuality, which includes everything from what motivates you to do this, to, you know, that if you are gay, then this lifestyle ends in a very bad way for you.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  Right, that there's a lot of physical harm, social harm.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  Emotional harm.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:51Josh Clark?

  So, what's weird, though, is like, I can't, Nicolosi's like a tough person to paint with just one brush. Even though I totally disagree with what he dedicated his career to, he doesn't seem, at least from what I've read, including that American Prospect article from somebody who was a patient of his for years.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  He doesn't seem to have been like, any sort of evil man, or anything like that. I don't know if he just thought like, this was a real thing, and he was really helping people, or what.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  But, for example, there's this one quote from, uh, from Gabriel Ariana, who said that, um, he had been like, experimenting with, um, sexual encounters with other men as a teenager. And he said that he'd been meeting men off of the internet. And he told Nicolosi, like, he's like, "I trusted the guy enough to share this in therapy." And he said that Nicolosi, uh, told, he said, "He told me to be careful, uh, meeting men off the internet, but that I shouldn't dwell on it, or feel guilty." He said, "My sexual behavior was of secondary importance. If I understood myself and worked on my relationships with men, the attractions would take care of themselves. I just had to be patient." Which is, I mean, it's a pretty great thing for a therapist to tell a patient.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  Don't dwell on it, you know, don't feel guilty, just, you know, accept it, move on and learn from it, or whatever.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  But then the second part.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  That's where it goes downhill.

• 31:11Josh Clark?

  Yes. And, so, the thing is, though, with conversion therapy, in most cases, Nicolosi is, like, he's almost a shining example, in a weird way, whereas other people associated with it are, it's very easy to paint them with just one brush.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 31:27Speaker 04

  So, we should talk a little bit about, uh, the argument against, a little bit more about the argument against, which includes a little bit more history. Um, you know, we talked about the earliest stages of conversion therapy in the late 1800s. But, uh, it really kind of picked up steam in the United States in the 1960s. Uh, when the civil rights movement, you know, when gay people started coming out of the closet more, presenting themselves more in public, um, gay bars popping up, things like that.

• 31:57Josh Clark?

  Stonewall?

• 31:58Speaker 04

  Stonewall, of course, uh, which, you know, anytime something like that is becoming a little more accepted in the mainstream, there's going to be another side that really roots down and digs in, and that's sort of how the modern gay conversion therapy movement was born, was out of homosexuality becoming more accepted.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I read a really interesting journal article, um, from 2007 by Robinson and Spivey. It was in Gender in Society, the journal. And, um, they basically, they, they looked into the ex-gay movement, not necessarily the psych- the psychology community's basis of it.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 32:37Josh Clark?

  But the later on, the adoption of it by the Christian right. And they explained why the Christian right would be interested in that. And they were interested in it and dug in, like you said, because they saw homosexuality and feminism in particular as signs of a decadent society that would eventually cause us to crumble and collapse. And that the, the, and this is according to Robinson and Spivey, I haven't actually interviewed any one on the Christian right who believes this.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:07Josh Clark?

  Uh, but they are academics and this was a peer-reviewed journal, um, that the, that masculinity is the antidote to that.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:15Josh Clark?

  It's the antidote to homosexuality, it's the antidote to feminism, and that it was up to each man to be a strong leader among women and children and to be as masculine as possible, that's how you, how you did that.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I, I went, I heard sermons every Sunday, well, not every Sunday, but I heard sermons on many Sundays where, uh, they were still saying, wives, submit to your husbands.

• 33:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  Um, straight out of the Bible, um, you know?

• 33:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and, and like, most of the antidote is dads, you're being way too passive, you need to step up and be the leader of your family, but also moms, you can help by saying, "Oh, you have a question? Ask your father. I defer to your father. Go ask your father."

• 33:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 33:59Josh Clark?

  And just, yeah, being passive.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Well, which goes back to that triad you mentioned earlier about the domineering mother, the passive father equals gay son.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  That's basically the basis of the whole thing, from what I could tell, is that, at least among the Christian right, that, that...

• 34:15Josh Clark?

  If the father is not the dominant and leading figure in the family, that's where the trouble comes from. And that can produce homosexual children. Interesting.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  So something we failed to mention as part of the AMAs

• 34:35Speaker 04

  change in 1972, or was that the APA?

• 34:38Josh Clark?

  APA.

• 34:39Speaker 04

  APA. Was they said, and this is an important distinction, is that homosexuality, they deemed a normal variation, not deviation, but a variation

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  in human sexual orientation. And like other normal sexual orientations can't be changed. In other words, you can't make a straight person gay any more than you can make a gay person straight.

• 35:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Is what that equals.

• 35:03Josh Clark?

  And because of that, as we'll see later on, that became the basis for this idea that conversion therapy is, in essence, a fraud.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  Because it purports to do something that can't be done.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  That's right. Should we take another break?

• 35:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, really? They're coming hard and fast.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  We can wait if you want.

• 35:20Josh Clark?

  Like men swinging scythes in sweaty shirts on the field.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's take another break. And we'll talk about what might happen in conversion therapy right after this.

• 35:41Speaker 07

  I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with Dr. Lara Jayhai of Cleveland Clinic about how advanced computing is helping shorten the path from medical discovery to treatment.

• 35:54Speaker 08

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• 36:28Speaker 07

  Learn more about how Cleveland Clinic and IBM are using AI and quantum computing to revolutionize biomedical research at ibm.com/smarttalks.

• 36:41Speaker 09

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• 37:32Josh Clark?

  All right, Chuck, I'm excited about this part.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  You're excited about the horror show of inversion therapy?

• 37:39Josh Clark?

  It's not all horror show. Some of it is just outright laughable.

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, so statistically about-

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  Also, I'm sorry, everybody. I want to say something, too.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 37:49Josh Clark?

  We typically try to be super objective.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

  This one is very tough.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  We have science on our side, too.

• 37:56Josh Clark?

  This was really hard for me to research.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:58Josh Clark?

  Nothing is ever hard for me to research. This one was. It was like turning over a log and finding it like maggots writhing underneath. That was what researching this one was like. I just kept putting it off.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  I know.

• 38:09Josh Clark?

  I would just keep leaving it and just going and watching like The Office or something like that, just anything but researching this.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  Because it's super sad.

• 38:17Josh Clark?

  It is. It's-

• 38:18Speaker 04

  That children are taken at their most vulnerable time in adolescence, when they don't know what's going on, and they're told that they're wrong, and they're sinning, and they're dirty.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  That is, that is a part of why it's sad. Another part to me of why it's sad is that the idea that grownups would direct this much thought and attention and effort-

• 38:43Josh Clark?

  Slamming their head up against a wall to try to change someone else to a way they think they should be.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  That, I think, is, that's, that's as least as sad to me as the children being misdirected like this, because a kid can go on and grow up and be like, geez, my family was super messed up, I'm really glad I don't speak to them anymore because I'm much happier over here.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  Right. Well, that can't happen in the ideal circumstance.

• 39:10Josh Clark?

  Sure, or the ideal circumstances that the family's just like, hey, we're really screwed up, we're really sorry.

• 39:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 39:16Josh Clark?

  We love you no matter who you are.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:19Josh Clark?

  But the idea that there's a group, a social movement dedicated to just eradicating another group of people.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:27Josh Clark?

  That, I, I find that very hard to swallow.

• 39:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, agreed. So, apparently statistically about, or close to 700,000 people in the United States have undergone conversion therapy, and we should mention that it's a real problem in places like Africa and Asia and South America.

• 39:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, where you can still be imprisoned for being gay.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  Like Uganda's a big, a big place for that.

• 39:52Speaker 04

  Conversion therapy is like on the rise in those places and other places.

• 39:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  But we're talking about the United States in this case, 700,000 people, and like we said, sometimes it is in the, with a licensed therapist, sometimes it's done by a religious advisor in a basement or at a church.

• 40:13Josh Clark?

  You know what that reminded me of is another thing we need to talk about sometime is exorcisms, like church exorcisms.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Oh, we've done exorcisms?

• 40:21Josh Clark?

  We did like straight up Roman Catholic exorcisms.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 40:24Josh Clark?

  I'm talking like the kind that somebody does in the basement of their house.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 40:28Josh Clark?

  Because they're supposedly an exorcist or something like that.

• 40:31Speaker 04

  Sure, backdoor exorcism?

• 40:32Josh Clark?

  Basically, yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  And black market?

• 40:35Josh Clark?

  You'll see, you'll be like, oh, man, we should be talking about this.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  All right, well, I agree already, I trust you.

• 40:40Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  So, the AMA says that conversion therapy programs may utilize harmful psychological techniques.

• 40:49Speaker 04

  We were talking earlier about aversion therapy and giving chemicals. They can still be given noxious stimulus. And I didn't see exactly what that entailed or could entail.

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  There was a guy named Robert Gilbert Heath, who was the father of implanting electrodes into the brain to deliver shocks. And one of the things he directed that toward was curing gay people. I don't think anyone in their basement is implanting electrodes or whatever.

• 41:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:19Josh Clark?

  But there are things like giving people like nausea inducing medications is one.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:27Josh Clark?

  Showing them pictures that might nauseate them and then figuring out how to associate that with masturbating to thoughts of other men or something like that.

• 41:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we should talk about a few of these specifically. I mean, all you have to do is look up on a search engine, conversion therapy horror stories. And there are plenty of people out there saying what happened to them.

• 41:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, look up also conversion therapy, super happy fun stories. And you're going to come up with almost nothing.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Google zero results. There was one teenager who said that he was forced to wear a backpack with 40 pounds of rocks 18 hours a day to just signify the physical burden of being gay.

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  One person's family gave them a fake funeral, closed casket funeral in front of him, where they said that he died of AIDS and they said their final goodbyes because he went down the sinful path.

• 42:19Josh Clark?

  Pretending he wasn't there, like that he was dead and in the casket.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 42:22Josh Clark?

  Talking about him in third person.

• 42:24Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 42:25Josh Clark?

  His family.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  One reported being told to strip naked in front of a mirror and say disparaging things about themselves.

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  I just do that normally, though.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Well, I did read one account where they basically said, the whole idea is to break you down to nothing in the worst way possible and then build you back up again. And the image that they want.

• 42:46Josh Clark?

  So I get the impression that that is one route, but that is not necessarily what you're going to get at any place you go for conversion therapy. There's other ones that say.

• 42:55Speaker 04

  That's the problem is we don't know because so many people don't talk about it.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  Right. There's some that like you would go to that say, okay, we're not going to abuse you or anything like that. But the basis of our beliefs in this is that you.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  You are gay because either you had an absent father, a domineering mother, some combination of the two, or you always like wanted to be like loved and, you know, popular among your male peers, and you didn't get that. So now you are misdirecting this need, this unmet need, toward having anonymous gay sex on the dance floor with some dude in Miami or whatever. So we need to figure out how to meet that need and have you hang out with guys who will tell you how cool you are and how popular you are.

• 43:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, like tailgating or something.

• 43:49Josh Clark?

  Kind of. And while we're at it, we're gonna do that by by accenting the masculinity. We're gonna teach you how to be masculine so that you can hang out with dudes in the real world, and they will think you're cool. So things like, um, we're gonna teach you how to change the oil in your car. We're gonna teach you to sit without crossing your legs. No joke. There was a guy who's-

• 44:11Speaker 04

  You're gonna teach you how to manspread-

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  On the subway.

• 44:14Josh Clark?

  There's a guy who's kind of a prominent thinker. Uh, I think he was, I saw him as a sexologist, maybe a Christian sexologist. Gerhard van den Arde Luig. It's pretty great. I think I nailed it. He said that homosexual men need to unlearn avoidance of getting their hands dirty, doing man-manual work, like chopping wood, painting a house, using a shovel. And that-

• 44:39Speaker 04

  I say no thanks to all three. I chop wood. That's kinda fun.

• 44:42Josh Clark?

  It is fun. And that, not necessarily just, here's an axe, start chopping wood, you're gonna just suddenly become cured, but that that is part of it.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  And in this thought, this tack where they're not abusing you, they're not degrading you or anything like that, they're teaching you masculinity and manliness, that the ultimate aim and goal of that is to go get married and have a kid.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:05Josh Clark?

  Or kids.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  And that that is a, a big part of conversion therapy where it was for a very long time, was saying, you might still be gay or whatever, but you're not really gay. You're now married and you have a kid, and that is what you're dedicating yourself to.

• 45:21Speaker 04

  That's right. You're a wood chopping, football throwing dude.

• 45:26Josh Clark?

  With a pencil thin mustache.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  Oh, no, no, not that. So in 1974, we should talk about George Rutgers. He was a psychologist who, uh-

• 45:37Speaker 04

  Who tested whether or not this was an effective treatment. And he had a four, this wasn't his boy, but this was his, his client. It was a four, I guess client's a weird way to put it.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:50Speaker 04

  This child was forced to go to this person at four and a half years old. And this is a boy manifesting, quote, "childhood cross-gender identity." And they said, "This is based on the clothes that this boy wears." And now, of course, looking at this, it was probably a transgender child.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or gender fluid.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's hard to tell because this was 1974. And the way they wrote about it, it's hard to kind of piece it together.

• 46:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it's also like, just how much of this behavior did this child exhibit? Like, it makes, it makes it seem like this is all the kid did was act like a girl when he was a boy.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:25Josh Clark?

  What else was he into? What else, you know?

• 46:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:27Josh Clark?

  It's just such a narrow picture of the subject.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Of course. So, in the end, Reckers did something super damaging. He trained the, the boy's mother to be the therapist. Like, here's what you need to do, so this kid can get 24/7 therapy from you. And basically, punish feminine behaviors, reinforce masculine behaviors at all times. And they said that, hey, this is working. Because every time this boy gets punished for doing something feminine, he stops and like chops wood or throws the football and gets a reward. So, because he's four and a half years old, he's doing the things that their parents congratulate him for and reward him for.

• 47:08Josh Clark?

  Right. And not doing the things that he's getting punished for.

• 47:11Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  The punishment is what stood out to me. It's just so sad that the mother was instructed to reject him, to basically ignore him when he acted like a girl, but not ignore him, like pretend it's not going on. Like, let him know that she is giving him the cold shoulder and that that's how he learned.

• 47:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  That is just devastating.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  It's heartbreaking, and what's heartbreaking is this is used, was, was used as an example, like, see, this works. This four and a half year old is now acting more masculine and is not going to grow up to be gay. And this, this child died by suicide at the age of 30.

• 47:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  Like, that's the end result of this road. That's where it ends up.

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  And that's what I meant earlier when I said, like, it does kind of work because it follows psychological techniques that actually work. But it works in like, kind of a bent way where, yes, you can train somebody, you can mold a four-year-old to behave in a certain way by conditioning them.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 48:06Josh Clark?

  It's possible. You can get somebody to do just about anything like that.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:10Josh Clark?

  But the ramifications, the results, the damage to the individual's identity that will eventually come out later are widespread and sweeping.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  And that's the point.

• 48:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 48:22Josh Clark?

  That's why you shouldn't monkey around with somebody's identity using proven psychological techniques. That's what's so evil about the whole thing.

• 48:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, my daughter's four and a half. I had a hard time even getting through this stuff.

• 48:33Josh Clark?

  And then also, if somebody, this is the other thing too. If you're a conversion therapy advocate or activist or practitioner, and you say, no, there are people out there who are distressed, who are experiencing psychological distress for being gay. Yes, that's true. I guarantee that there are people like that out there. But directing them toward working on not being gay is not the answer.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, go to regular therapy.

• 48:58Josh Clark?

  And learn to love that you're gay. And go find a church that accepts gay people. There's step two.

• 49:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, because they're out there. Um, let's talk about the science of it because the-

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  We are so contributing to a decadent society.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  In 2009, there was a report from the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation. Quite a read. And, um, this was the actual final stance was, "Sexual orientation change efforts can pose critical health risks to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people." Critical health risks.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  That was the-

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Not emotional, not, I mean, it's part of emotional health too.

• 49:37Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  But critical health risks. And if you read the- The review of research and peer-reviewed literature and the findings of what it can result in, it reads like the worst pharma ad disclaimer you've ever heard. Depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, self-hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress, sexual dysfunction, loss of faith, and suicidality. And on that last note, homosexual teens attempt suicide more often than heterosexual teens. And then among those homosexual teens, you're twice as likely to try that if your parents

• 50:18Speaker 04

  have rejected you, and three times as likely if you have undergone conversion therapy.

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  Three times as likely?

• 50:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 50:25Josh Clark?

  Compared to a heterosexual teen?

• 50:28Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  Man. Well, there you have it. That was just the APA, that a bunch of different associations, like legit medical and psychological associations, have come out and condemned in no uncertain terms conversion therapy.

• 50:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:45Josh Clark?

  And all of their, these condemnations basically follow two different texts. One, there is no science backing up the idea that you can change somebody from homosexuality to heterosexuality.

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  And number two, there is science backing up the idea that trying to do that causes damage to the individual.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 51:07Josh Clark?

  So don't do that. And as a matter of fact, some countries and states in the United States have said, this is outlawed, you can't do this anymore, everybody, which is really touchy stuff, because, again, the Christian right kind of adopted it. And we don't really infringe on religious beliefs, but that's how strong these condemnations have been, that they're saying, we'll kind of start to wade into that with this one.

• 51:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we'll talk about the legalities of recent years in a sec, but before that, between

• 51:43Speaker 04

  The seventies and the APA's stance, changing things a little bit. Then through the eighties and nineties where conversion therapy was really sort of hitting its peak, I think, in America. There were a lot of, there were a few high-profile cases that were exposed that have helped sway things a little bit back to sanity.

• 52:03Josh Clark?

  So first-

• 52:04Speaker 04

  In more recent years.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so before those high-profile cases, and I mean right before them. I think in 1998, a coalition of church groups got together and sponsored an ad campaign, something like a $600,000 ad campaign.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  And things like the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, all of this. And these, this ad featured John and Ann, I believe, Ann Polk. Both of whom were formerly gay, but were now ex-gay.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  And married.

• 52:33Josh Clark?

  And married and had a kid. And said, "Gay conversion helps." And at the time, there wasn't a lot of ink on the other side saying, "Actually, this is totally discredited." And it captured everybody's attention. And this was when the Christian right came in and said, "We're gonna make this huge push in the culture war." And it really worked. That's when that Newsweek story came out.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, they were on the cover of Newsweek. He was the, uh, he was the leader of an ex-gay organization called Exodus International, John Polk was.

• 53:02Josh Clark?

  Right, and it brought a lot of attention.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, he was the poster boy.

• 53:05Josh Clark?

  Yes, and Exodus International in particular became one of two main umbrella organizations. They were kind of like the, this, I saw it put the spiritual version of this, the ex-gay movement. And then something called NARF, the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, was like the scientific branch of the ex-gay movement.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 53:28Josh Clark?

  And, um, so Exodus International became a very well-known, prominent organization in the late nineties. But within two, three years-

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Two.

• 53:39Josh Clark?

  It would be, it would basically be the poster child for how conversion therapy doesn't work.

• 53:46Speaker 04

  Right, because John Polk is gay. In 2000, just two years later, he was photographed coming out of a gay bar in Washington DC. At the time, he refuted that, he didn't refute that he was there. He said, "What you always say. I didn't know it was a gay bar."

• 54:03Josh Clark?

  I went in there asking for directions.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  No, I saw he went in to use the bathroom, so.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  No.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  Either way.

• 54:09Josh Clark?

  I just read the article.

• 54:10Speaker 04

  And then they were like, "Uh, but you were in there for a couple of hours." Like, "Did you get the directions and use the bathroom?"

• 54:16Josh Clark?

  It clearly says "blue oyster" in neon. Have you not seen the Police Academy movies?

• 54:23Speaker 04

  That was the name of it in the Police Academy, right? The Blue Oyster Bar.

• 54:28Speaker 04

  Oh goodness. And John Paul, we should say, now lives life as a gay man and is a chef. He's been on like some celebrity chef shows.

• 54:38Josh Clark?

  Is that right?

• 54:38Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 54:39Josh Clark?

  Cool.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  And he is, uh...

• 54:41Josh Clark?

  Living his best life.

• 54:42Speaker 04

  He's living his best life from what it looks like.

• 54:44Josh Clark?

  So he's no longer married any longer to Ann?

• 54:47Speaker 04

  Actually, that I don't know.

• 54:49Josh Clark?

  Because there are some, but we'll keep going.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  I don't think he is, but there are a couple of people that are. There was, in 2003, Michael Johnston. He was another person touted as an ex-gay success story. Founder of National Coming Out of Homosexuality Day. He actually was, uh, he was found out to be having sex with men that he met online and infected them with HIV.

• 55:16Josh Clark?

  Jeez.

• 55:17Speaker 04

  Very big deal. And then there's Ted Haggard, of course, in 2006.

• 55:21Josh Clark?

  I remember this.

• 55:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, he was a preacher and president of the National Association of Evangelicals. Or was at the time, I guess. Very much an anti-gay leader in the religious circles. And this one sort of unfolded little by little, like, mm, hey, this guy came out and said, "This guy had a relationship with me for like three years. We did crystal meth together." And then Haggard came out and said...

• 55:47Josh Clark?

  So cliche.

• 55:48Speaker 04

  "You know what? I have to admit, I sin. I bought crystal meth, but I didn't use it. I threw it in the trash."

• 55:53Josh Clark?

  I was just...

• 55:54Speaker 04

  "Because I wouldn't succumb to the sin."

• 55:56Josh Clark?

  Is that what he said?

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, he says he did buy crystal meth. And, because I assume that was proof. And he said that he didn't use it at all. He threw it in the trash before he used it, where the other guy was like, "No, we did tons of meth and had gay sex a lot."

• 56:09Josh Clark?

  Right, he's like, "Oh, I know what he's talking about. On like day four of us staying up, he like freaked out and threw it in the trash, but then he went back and got it." And the proof was that he paid for it by check?

• 56:22Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 56:23Josh Clark?

  No.

• 56:23Speaker 04

  No, probably not. I don't think meth dealers take checks anymore, do they?

• 56:26Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  And then that was, he was outed by having a relationship with an underage boy, a sexual relationship.

• 56:34Josh Clark?

  This was Ted Haggard again?

• 56:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the boy sued and it was settled by the church with a dollar figure, I think it was like 180 grand. And then finally in 2011, Ted Haggard comes out and is like, alright, so I did have a relationship with a boy, but we never touched each other, I just masturbated in front of him.

• 56:54Josh Clark?

  And threw him in the trash.

• 56:55Speaker 04

  And in 2011, he said, you know what, I'm bisexual, I'm gonna admit it, I am bisexual, but I am going to choose to live my life as a faithful heterosexual husband to my wife.

• 57:09Josh Clark?

  I wonder if after he admitted that, it came out as bisexual, what that felt like? If he felt like a weight was lifted, or if the anxiety associated with it was just so much, or you know, what his wife knew or didn't know or thought about it? I'd be very curious to know what that, you know, what life has been like for him after that.

• 57:30Speaker 04

  I mean, he's a preacher again.

• 57:32Josh Clark?

  Because I mean, more power to him if he's like, I'm a Christian and I'm just not going to have gay sex, that's as much a personal choice as having gay sex, you know? I mean, the whole underage boy thing, that's a huge problem that I think

• 57:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:46Josh Clark?

  I'm hoping was addressed, but I wonder what his, what his life is like now.

• 57:52Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, he's, like I said, he's preaching again, I think in Colorado.

• 57:56Josh Clark?

  He's probably a Stuff You Should Know listener. Haggard, right in.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  We'd like to hear from you, sir. You want to talk about the law? Because right now-

• 58:06Josh Clark?

  Oh wait, there was one more. Chuck, there's a big one.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  Who, Alan Chambers?

• 58:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so John Polk, when he was outed cruising the Blue Oyster in DC back in 2000, he was running Exodus International.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 58:18Josh Clark?

  He was replaced a couple of years later by Alan Chambers. And about a decade after Chambers took over Exodus International, he said, "I'm gay, I've been gay, conversion therapy doesn't work. We're shutting down Exodus International."

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I apologize to the LGBTQ community.

• 58:37Josh Clark?

  Yes, so within about a decade or so of the Christian right adopting the ex-gay and conversion therapy pillar post as part of the platform for their culture war, the biggest organization, one of two biggest organizations dedicated to conversion therapy, said, "It doesn't work, we're sorry gay people for all the damage we've done."

• 58:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:59Josh Clark?

  That's a pretty big turn of events.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  It is.

• 59:02Josh Clark?

  So, yeah.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Yet it still continues.

• 59:03Josh Clark?

  So that led to, yeah, so that led to a bunch of laws that are trying to keep it from continuing.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the laws are basically usually around minors saying, "You cannot force a minor to do something like this."

• 59:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 59:18Speaker 04

  Not, "Hey, the whole thing is outlawed. If you're an adult and you want to go do this, then that's up to you." As of 2019, this year, 18 states in Washington DC and Puerto Rico have similar bans enacted. And also, it's important to point out that those bans are about the legitimate scientific community, like you will have your license revoked. Doesn't say anything about a preacher that you go to, or a youth counselor, or any, you know, sort of non-licensed church therapist.

• 59:50Josh Clark?

  Right, it's only scientists or licensed counselors, or psychologists or psychiatrists, or doctors, I'm sure, who can lose their license if they practice it.

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:00:00Josh Clark?

  But yeah, that's because there's religious freedom. It's, I guess you can still do that to minors, though, if it's a religious group doing it?

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  That is what I'm not sure about.

• 1:00:12Josh Clark?

  So, for the...

• 1:00:14Speaker 04

  Well, it depends on the state.

• 1:00:16Josh Clark?

  So there was a group, or there was a counseling...

• 1:00:21Josh Clark?

  Organization called Jonah. And Jonah.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  Is this Goldberg and Burke?

• 1:00:26Josh Clark?

  Yes, they ran Jonah, which stood for, I can't find it anywhere.

• 1:00:30Speaker 04

  I gotta hear Jews offering a new alternative for healing.

• 1:00:33Josh Clark?

  Okay, they were not only found practicing in New Jersey. Um, conversion therapy, so they both lost their licenses. They were also sued in a civil suit by former patients for fraud and lost.

• 1:00:48Speaker 04

  It's interesting, I mean, you think about it, like, wait a minute. If this is not possible.

• 1:00:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:00:52Speaker 04

  And you're charging people for it.

• 1:00:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  That's fraud.

• 1:00:54Josh Clark?

  So they, they had like a three and a half million dollar settlement levied against them, but, and lost their licenses, but then they just set up shop under another name, apparently the same year.

• 1:01:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Josh Clark?

  Of the, the verdict in the civil suit. But for the most part, if you're a state and you pass a law banning conversion therapy to minors among medical practitioners or counselors. Um, the courts are going to uphold that law.

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's been upheld in California and New Jersey. Um, most of the challenges are on the grounds of free speech.

• 1:01:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 04

  Um, and the New Jersey, uh, when they upheld the New Jersey, or maybe it was Maryland. The judge said, uh, we're not infringing on your free speech. You can say whatever you want, but you can't practice this therapy.

• 1:01:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  That's different than free speech.

• 1:01:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  You can believe what you want and say what you want, but you can't do this as part of your, you know, licensed therapy.

• 1:01:48Josh Clark?

  It's the same thing as like if you, um, if you carry out quack, uh, cancer treatments.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:01:57Josh Clark?

  That is harmful, like you're poisoning your patients or whatever. And like they become, um, they lose the, the use of their arms and legs because of a treatment that you gave them for cancer that the American Medical Association has specifically said is damaging and harmful. You're totally going to get held accountable for that. You're lucky to just lose your license in that case. This is the exact same principle.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:24Josh Clark?

  So, um, in, because it deals mostly with minors or exclusively with minors, the courts have upheld it. But New York City actually is widely considered to have overstepped its bounds and actually misstepped in this kind of. Culture war about conversion therapy in banning the practice among minors and adults.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:02:45Josh Clark?

  And that got New York City sued.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:47Josh Clark?

  And New York City was like, well, the Supreme Court's actually gotten pretty conservative lately. I don't know if we should test this. And they repealed the ban.

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, as a, as a strategy.

• 1:02:58Josh Clark?

  Right, to keep it from getting tested in the Supreme Court.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:03:01Josh Clark?

  Where the Supreme Court could say, no, all laws against conversion therapy are unconstitutional. You can't outlaw it or ban it in any form.

• 1:03:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I think the Supreme Court already refused to hear one case.

• 1:03:12Josh Clark?

  Which actually upheld the state's outlaw of

• 1:03:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:03:16Josh Clark?

  conversion therapy.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:03:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Speaker 04

  Very interesting. There's a movie I haven't seen yet called The Miseducation of Cameron Post. It's a 2018 film from the 2012 novel by Emily Danforth. Haven't seen it yet, but it's about a girl

• 1:03:30Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 1:03:31Speaker 04

  who undergoes conversion therapy. And it's, uh, Chloe Grace Moritz?

• 1:03:37Josh Clark?

  I

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  You know her?

• 1:03:38Josh Clark?

  I, I do. I can't put the face with the name, but I know both.

• 1:03:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, you've seen her for sure.

• 1:03:43Josh Clark?

  Sure. Uh, if you want to know more about Arrested Development, uh, conversion therapy, all that stuff, you can, well, I guess start researching online. See what you think. Uh, and since I said, see what you think, it's time for Listener Mail.

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  Uh, I'm gonna call this complaint, pedantic complaint.

• 1:04:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  I write to complain. Josh, in the episode on historic districts, you kept referring to them repeatedly with the indefinite article "an" rather than "a", and historic district.

• 1:04:14Josh Clark?

  I said "an".

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  That's what he says.

• 1:04:16Josh Clark?

  That sounds unusual. I don't usually do that.

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:04:18Josh Clark?

  I guess I was just being unconsciously correct.

• 1:04:22Speaker 04

  So is that correct?

• 1:04:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  So what's the rule?

• 1:04:25Josh Clark?

  What I just said.

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  Huh?

• 1:04:27Josh Clark?

  What I just said.

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  That's the rule.

• 1:04:30Josh Clark?

  That's the rule.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  What I say? Okay.

• 1:04:33Josh Clark?

  I try not to exercise it too much.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  Okay, good.

• 1:04:36Josh Clark?

  Only when I'm right.

• 1:04:37Speaker 04

  Uh, Joe says this, "I realize this infuriating practice has become popular in recent years in the US. I feel passionately that it must be discontinued, especially primarily by those voices or attended by large audiences like you. You are no doubt aware the letter H is a consonant." Necessitating, geez.

• 1:04:54Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 1:04:54Speaker 04

  "The use of the indefinite article A rather than an." Citation, all grammar books ever. "I should limit the scope of my gripe with an important caveat, Cockneys. They should probably continue to say an because they pronounce it historic."

• 1:05:07Josh Clark?

  This guy doesn't even know that the rhyming slang episode is coming out. How weird.

• 1:05:11Speaker 04

  But guys, that's not really what I write today. I love the show. I wanted to tell you, uh, I wanted to wait for a halfway plausible pretense to make the email a little more fun, which I hope this has been. Any chance on an episode of How Pedantry Works? Keep up the good work, Joe."

• 1:05:24Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Joe.

• 1:05:25Speaker 04

  He's booking fun.

• 1:05:26Josh Clark?

  Turns out he's good peeps after all.

• 1:05:28Speaker 04

  Yes, is the "an" before an "h," is that a thing?

• 1:05:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 04

  I didn't know that, is it?

• 1:05:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think, um, I don't know if it's proper or not, but I understand where it comes from because the vowel that comes right after the "h" is usually so heavily pronounced in relation to how it's pronounced when it comes after other consonants, like "an historic."

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  "An historic district," sounds okay.

• 1:05:53Josh Clark?

  "An honor, an honor, a honor." Which one sounds better?

• 1:05:56Speaker 04

  Like I was bestowed an honor.

• 1:05:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, say it the other way.

• 1:06:00Speaker 04

  But you wouldn't say-

• 1:06:01Josh Clark?

  It's like dog vomit coming out of your mouth.

• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  "In high school, I had an history teacher that was great." You know? It's really weird.

• 1:06:09Josh Clark?

  Did Joe tell you to say that?

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  No, I just thought of it, because "an historic."

• 1:06:13Josh Clark?

  "I had a history teacher. I had a historic." Yeah, both work. How about this? We're both right, Joe.

• 1:06:20Josh Clark?

  Try not to focus on such stupid stuff.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  I'm curious. I'm curious if there is, I really want to know the rule now because I know it's a consonant, but if people are saying it these days, is that just some sort of a fighting the system?

• 1:06:33Josh Clark?

  That's the descriptivest way. The prescriptivist is like, no, it's this way.

• 1:06:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:06:38Josh Clark?

  Joe's the prescriptivist here. We're descriptiveists.

• 1:06:40Speaker 04

  All right.

• 1:06:41Josh Clark?

  I think we've proven ourselves that.

• 1:06:42Speaker 04

  Maybe we should launch a side podcast called The Descriptivists.

• 1:06:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 1:06:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Josh Clark?

  Almost has like a Civil War era folk band feel to it.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  We'd have to grow curly cues though.

• 1:06:53Josh Clark?

  That's fine.

• 1:06:54Speaker 04

  We're not going to do that.

• 1:06:55Josh Clark?

  We could get fake ones that we just took on and off for publicity.

• 1:06:58Speaker 04

  That's right. Scout mob.

• 1:07:00Josh Clark?

  Right. If you want to get in touch with us, like Joe did, have a little quibble, a little gripe or praise or whatever, you can go onto stuffyoushouldknow.com and check us out. Our social links are all up there. You can also send us an email to [email protected].

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:07:37Josh Clark?

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• 1:08:08Speaker 10

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• 1:09:04Speaker 11

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