Selects: How ESP Works (?)

Even though almost half of Americans believe in it, ESP usually is treated as a load of bull by skeptics. But some respected researchers have dared to apply the scientific method to investigate ESP and a few have found some surprising results. Find out all about it with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:39Josh Clark?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh, and for this week's select, I've chosen our 2015 episode on ESP. It's a really good one. We talk about all sorts of things about ESP, including the science. And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, science and ESP? Yes, indeed. And that's one of the things that makes this episode so cool. So I hope you will open your mind, tune in, turn on, drop out, keep on truckin', and enjoy this episode.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:21Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W., Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's over there. I didn't even have to look.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  Why?

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  I just knew.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, and dudes and dudettes, we are in our new studio.

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, can you tell? Does it sound different?

• 2:39Speaker 03

  It's the very first one, and it's tiny.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  Wait, what do you mean it's the very first one?

• 2:45Speaker 03

  Very, very first podcast that we've recorded in here.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Uh, I was gonna say, I said tiny, but it's not tiny. It's cozy, but it is all, uh, all ours.

• 2:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  All ours.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  Everybody else at House of Works doesn't really know that yet, but they will.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, because when, uh, we actually have butt detection, and when someone sits down in these seats that aren't us, they get a shock.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and plus an alarm goes off at our desks.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, what's that called? DMR?

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  TMI.

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Oh. Uh, how are you, sir?

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  I'm pretty good.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  I feel like this is fancy. This is our first real, like, studio. That's not true.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  Uh, no, I'm trying to remember. The last one was, no.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  But it's not a utility closet. It's not a lactation room.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  It's not, yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  It's not a murder room.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  It's not in, like, an office with, like, desk, like, office furniture?

• 3:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  It's a, it's a studio that was built out for the specific purpose of recording podcasts.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Yep, all we have to do, uh, is put up our Aaron Cooper originals, the artwork.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  Got a couple of those waiting to go.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  And, uh, we gotta work on the lighting in here a little bit.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Jerry said she's gonna hang some china balls for us.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she keeps pushing the china balls.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Um, so anyway, enough about that. We just wanted to say we're super excited to be in our new office and our new studio.

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  It does feel good.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  Kudos for that intro.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:09Josh Clark?

  Uh, I'm not gonna say that I knew you were gonna say that.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say that, too.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  I knew that you were thinking of saying that, Chuck.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yes, uh, ESP.

• 4:21Josh Clark?

  Do you believe in ESP?

• 4:23Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:24Josh Clark?

  No, not at all.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  What do you think it is? Because surely, I mean, just about anyone could agree that humans have some sort of ability somehow to make good guesses or to predict the future, whatever you want to call it. Do you agree? Or do you think it's strictly just us selectively paying attention to random instances over others?

• 4:48Speaker 03

  I think it's that. And as we'll talk about, I think it's the, just the nature of coincidence is going to happen because so many things happen every day that something is bound to seem like something you dreamed about the night before at some point in your life.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  But the other millions of dreams you have that don't, I think those are the ones that are the tell.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  I got you.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  You know? Do you?

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  I don't know. Like, I want to. I spent so many years of my life believing in stuff like that. And wanting to go to Duke University to study at their parapsychology department.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Did you really?

• 5:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You know, believing in ghosts and all this. And just that's how I spent my childhood, just reading about stuff like that voraciously.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  So Ghostbusters really did a number on you?

• 5:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, when that came along, I was like, this was made for me.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  But as an adult, it's not so much that I believe in ESP. It's more that I refuse to just utterly disbelieve in the possibility of it.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Sure. Okay.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean?

• 6:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got you there because we don't know everything about everything yet.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  But, yeah, I'm in the other camp. And I'm not even going to say the skeptic camp because those people just bug me.

• 6:14Josh Clark?

  Has a bad name, due to some bad apples. Not all skeptics.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  But there are some that are horses' asses.

• 6:23Josh Clark?

  Can we say that?

• 6:25Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 6:25Josh Clark?

  We'll find out.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Um, all right, well, let's talk about, and I thought this was interesting because I never knew that ESP is just a big collective term for all manner of paranormal phenomena, which you could also call psi.

• 6:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so a dude named JB Rhine,

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  who we'll talk about later, he coined ESP.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  The granddaddy.

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  Uh huh, and then in the 40s, another guy coined the term psi. And psi is the, a Greek letter, and it's equated with psyche or the soul.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, PSI.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  And the reason that the guy chose psi is because he felt ESP suggested it was something supernatural.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  And psi, he felt suggested that this is a normal part of humanity, we just don't understand it.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  It's, it sounds like science.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  You're right.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Um, but there are several categories of ESP. Um, and this is the one I never knew the actual definitions for these. I sort of just threw them all in a bag together.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  Uh, you have telepathy, and that's when you can, you know, you're over there reading my thoughts.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Like Chuck is really not happy to be in the new studio.

• 7:31Josh Clark?

  That's not true.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  He'd rather be at home on the couch.

• 7:34Josh Clark?

  I'm reading your thoughts right now, and I know that you like this place.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. Well, you're, you're a telepath.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Uh, clairvoyance, which is the ability to see events or things, objects, happening somewhere else at the same time. So, are you do, are you clairvoyant?

• 7:49Josh Clark?

  I am. I'm seeing your couch right now, and I'm seeing it's not that comfy.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  So you're not missing that much at the moment.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  I know, somewhere Jonathan Strickland is waxing his head. His bald head.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  That's just a logical assumption.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Okay. Uh, then we have our precogs, precognition, that's when you see into the future. Uh, retrocogs, retrocognition, you can see into the distant past.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  That's, there's another, um, that's a widely accepted definition of retrocognition.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:18Josh Clark?

  Like seeing, you know, a cave, like tuk tuk running around with the dinosaurs like you do, which I guess never would have happened.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Um, but there's another term for retrocognition, whereas Something in the future affects something in the past. So a decision you make in the future.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:35Josh Clark?

  Affects your past. And an example given is that you have a dream about a dinosaur. Now, let's say a spotted dog.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:45Josh Clark?

  And then the first thing the next morning, you go outside to water your lawn and the same spotted dog or a similar spotted dog walks by. The idea isn't that that was very coincidental or that you had ESP in your dreams.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:59Josh Clark?

  But that you seeing that dog in the morning affected your dream the night before.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 9:05Josh Clark?

  So that's another definition that's emerging for retro cognition.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 9:08Josh Clark?

  That's getting a lot of traction because of the stuff we're finding on the quantum scale.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Just weirdness like that.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  All right, then you have your mediumship and that's Ms. Cleo, who can channel dead spirits.

• 9:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I forgot about her.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  And then you have-

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  I wonder how much money that woman grossed in the 90s.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  She made a lot of dough.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  I hope so.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:28Josh Clark?

  I mean, she was working hard. She had a finite window of opportunity and she worked that whole time. She didn't like buy a sailboat and sail around the world after like her first million, you know? Like, she worked.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  So you're not in the camp of like she's taking people's money and taking advantage of people?

• 9:46Josh Clark?

  Uh, I see that argument.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  For sure. I also see like if people want to spend their money on that and they get something out of it, knock yourself out.

• 9:54Speaker 03

  All right. And then you have psychometry, which is the ability to read info about a person place by touching the person or object. And that's what I like to call the dead zone.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Christopher Walken, he would place his hands on you and he would see something.

• 10:11Josh Clark?

  Man, I think we talked about it recently, about how that movie holds up still.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  It's such a good movie.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it really is good. Chris Walken.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  There's another one, Chuck, called telekinesis, which is like Yuri Geller stroking a spoon and it bending.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:30Josh Clark?

  Like being able to manipulate matter, just using a light toucher of your mind.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  But there is no spoon.

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, wasn't that from Matrix?

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Um, alright, so basically, uh, like you said, JB Rhine is the, the granddaddy of all this. And he actually started studying, I mean, he was a legitimate scientist, he wasn't some quack. And, uh, this was in the 1930s where he started at Duke University studying para- parapsychology, basically.

• 11:02Josh Clark?

  And, uh, he wasn't the first, he was one of the first, um, laboratory experimenters in academia to really study psi, right? Before him, probably about forty or so years before him, William James and some of his pals at the Society for Psychical Research.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  Um, really laid the groundwork for applying the scientific method to the study of paranormal phenomenon.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:27Josh Clark?

  And they did two things. They outed frauds, like fraudulent mediums, like, uh, very famously Madame Blavartsky.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  But then they also investigated ones like, they approached them typically with like an open mind.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  Um, and if they found somebody that they just couldn't explain, they would, they studied them. So they were, they were studying each one with an open mind and the ones they figured out were frauds, they outed as frauds. The ones they figured out, uh, couldn't quite explain.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:57Josh Clark?

  They sought to investigate scientifically rather than just saying, "Oh, they're a fraud somehow."

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  So that was the groundwork of the study of psi.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  What was, uh, Madame Blavartsky's deal of the Coney Island Blavartsky's?

• 12:09Josh Clark?

  She was, um, she actually, she, she was almost a cult leader. You could argue she was. She, um, she created, um, oh, man, it's called like theodism, I think?

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  Which is, um, it was, it was almost a cult, it was a huge, um, movement in the 19th century where like you'd go to like a seance and there was a medium there and they would channel like the spirits of the dead, relatives of people who were there holding hands in the circle and stuff like that. And she gained a lot of power and wealth and prestige until she was outed as, as a fraud. And I don't remember the, the, um, it's theosophy, that's what it is, not theo- theoism. Theoism has to do with Theo Huxtable.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Did you see The Source Family, by the way, that documentary?

• 12:59Josh Clark?

  No, I haven't.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  About the LA cult in the 70s?

• 13:02Josh Clark?

  I saw the icon on Netflix and it clicked. Is it good?

• 13:06Speaker 03

  It's really good. And it's awesome, actually. I recommend everyone see it. It's one of those where like they interview a lot of them today and they weren't like, you know, they didn't commit suicide. Like, everyone was like, it was pretty great.

• 13:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're all fine. They're all just a bunch of hippies still.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  They were out in LA?

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, right in Hollywood.

• 13:25Josh Clark?

  There was one in, um, there was a documentary I saw about a cult in Miami. And they were like, super fundamentalist Christian.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  But they also were, um, the basis of their religion was formed on pot, too.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  Well, that's what The Source Family was.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  I wonder if they were related?

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Well, it was the 70s.

• 13:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  There were a lot of pot cults, I bet.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  But did they turn into like huge pot dealers?

• 13:51Speaker 03

  No, I don't think so.

• 13:52Josh Clark?

  This cult did.

• 13:53Speaker 03

  They had a band, though, and the-

• 13:55Josh Clark?

  Called The Source?

• 13:56Speaker 03

  Mm, you know, I can't remember the name of the band, but it's pretty interesting to listen to.

• 14:01Josh Clark?

  Manhattan Transfer?

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was it. It's a really good documentary, though. It's just funny to see all these people now. They're like, it was awesome.

• 14:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Had a lot of sex and smoked a lot of weed.

• 14:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's kinda what this one did, too. They, these guys didn't seem to have a lot of sex, though. They were like real, like, um, compartmentalized gender-wise and like male dominance and all that, but they just smoked a ton of pot all the time, including their little kids.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Oh, well, that's not good.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  Like, like, four-year-olds smoking pot.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  Oh, that's terrible.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was in the documentary. It's worth seeing. I don't remember what it's-

• 14:31Speaker 03

  You had me up. You lost me there.

• 14:33Josh Clark?

  I lost everybody there in that documentary.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, all right, so back to this ESP thing.

• 14:40Josh Clark?

  JB Rhine?

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, JB Rhine. Well, basically, there's a, there's a lot of different outlooks on what ESP might be. Um, some people think that everyone's got it, but some people, um, it just pops up every now and then. Um, like, I might have a dream that comes true or whatever. Uh, other people think that only certain people have it. They have this, the gift, as they say.

• 15:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Uh, and that they have to be in this special, like, you know, mental state to access it.

• 15:09Josh Clark?

  The shenan?

• 15:11Speaker 03

  The shitting. And then other folks say that everyone has that potential, but, um, some people are just like in tune with it. And some people aren't.

• 15:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And you fall in the none of those three camp.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  So we'll talk a little more about some ideas of what ESP is right after this.

• 15:44Josh Clark?

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• 16:06Josh Clark?

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• 16:45Speaker 05

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• 17:03Speaker 06

  Man, I'm a black and Mexican kid from San Pedro, and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in LA was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like... What we get to do with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though.

• 17:39Speaker 05

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• 17:56Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, you said that basically how people see ESP is either everyone has it, some people have it, or no one has it, basically.

• 18:08Josh Clark?

  Whether you're a skeptic or a believer.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:11Josh Clark?

  If you are a believer in ESP and somebody comes to you and says, "Okay, explain ESP." Like, what is it?

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  There's actually a couple of very common suggestions or proposals.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:25Josh Clark?

  One made sense for a while.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:27Josh Clark?

  Before we knew a little more about the brain. And that was that ESP was some form or fashion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:37Josh Clark?

  That we were receiving information from outside of our usual senses.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like you said, it fell out of favor because, basically, it didn't explain anything about how it moves through time, or it didn't pick up on some special part of your brain that, like, receives this message.

• 18:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and there was a, did you see that study I sent you that was, I think, from 2010 where they put people in an MRI and then showed them different pictures or whatever?

• 19:11Josh Clark?

  And they did, they showed, like, I put you in the Wonder Machine.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  And now I'm showing you a picture of the flower. And that's it.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Okay. It's lovely, except it sounds like a German rave.

• 19:24Josh Clark?

  Okay, a little bit. But that would be the non-ESP stimuli, the control group.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:31Josh Clark?

  To test ESP and to see if the brain reacted differently and then to see if there was a part of the brain that's picking up on ESP. I would show you the flower and then in the other room, I would also show Emily that flower.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 19:45Josh Clark?

  And have her think about it.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:46Josh Clark?

  And send you the thought of that flower. So you're getting ESP stimuli and then non-ESP stimuli. And from the MRI, they showed that the brain didn't react differently.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  So it suggests that there isn't a sensory organ or region of the brain that's responsible for picking up ESP, which doesn't debunk the possibility of ESP.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  It just undermines the idea that there's a region of our brain that would be responsible for picking that up.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  Plus, if Emily's over there, my first guess is gonna be dog every time. And it's flower and then it's not gonna...

• 20:20Josh Clark?

  Well, it wasn't about guessing, it was just to see, like, showing you the ESP version.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:26Josh Clark?

  And then the non-ESP version of the same thing. So you weren't guessing. Do you understand?

• 20:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I get it now. I would've guessed dog or wine.

• 20:34Josh Clark?

  There wasn't guessing.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  I still would've guessed. Emily thinks she has the gift a little bit, so she would've been disappointed.

• 20:41Josh Clark?

  She's got the chin?

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little, she thinks.

• 20:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  But I think she's just super observant and intuitive.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Well, that's definitely one explanation for it.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, which we'll get to, of course. So these days, there are other theories, one of which is that, it's called spillover, that there's basically another dimension that doesn't, you know, have our laws here and our dimension.

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  And that sometimes stuff just sort of spills over from that and we see the future or the past.

• 21:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And if you're a skeptic, you probably just pulled a decent-sized clump of your hair out of the side of your head at that one.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, because this is something you can't prove, obviously. It's like completely...

• 21:26Speaker 03

  And of course, they'll say, "Exactly."

• 21:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  You know?

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I think I got the impression from this article that they were making that point, like, science is just chasing its tail and trying to explain ESP because it's not currently capable.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:41Josh Clark?

  And science goes, "It doesn't work like that."

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 21:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:45Josh Clark?

  At least with the electromagnetic spectrum explanation, it was pointing to something that we already know exists, right? It's just that there's no way to show that we would be getting, how we would be getting information from it. Because the electromagnetic explanation?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:06Josh Clark?

  It basically says, if you compare it to other findings from ESP, it makes even less sense.

• 22:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:13Josh Clark?

  Because with ESP, one of the hallmarks of it is that, no matter whether you're out there, outside of the studio-

• 22:19Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 22:20Josh Clark?

  -thinking about wine, or a dog, or something-

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  -and I'm picking up on it, or if you're in China, and I'm here, and we're doing the same thing, the signal doesn't weaken at all.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that just flies in the face of all we know about electromagnetic waves.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  No good.

• 22:36Josh Clark?

  Right. So there's a lot of things wrong with the proposals of what ESP is.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, but you know, the reason why people still believe in this stuff is because of either hearing a story about their friend who said, you know, "Listen to this crazy thing happen."

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Or experiencing it themselves in some way or another, having a dream that something similar happened, and all of a sudden, you're like, "Hmm, I might have the gift."

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Or it popped up in me, you know, briefly, at least.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  And there's a, I mean, there's a lot of evidence of strange and unusual occurrences-

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 23:13Josh Clark?

  -that support the idea of ESP.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:15Josh Clark?

  Um, this article gives a really good one, about an 1898 book called Futility-

• 23:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:21Josh Clark?

  -that was written by a guy named Morgan Robertson, right?

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  And in it, the guy details this book, or this boat, called the Titan-

• 23:30Speaker 03

  A ship.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, a ship.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  A boat.

• 23:32Josh Clark?

  A big old boat.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  Um, which is sailing across the Atlantic, and hits an iceberg at night, and sinks, and a bunch of people die because there weren't enough lifeboats.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:43Josh Clark?

  And this is 1898, and if that sounds familiar, the Titanic did the same exact thing. The Titanic, not the Titan-

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  -did the same exact thing 14 years later.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, if there, there are a bunch of similarities. Um, the Titan struck an iceberg in the book on the starboard side on an April night in the North Atlantic off the coast of Newfoundland, and the real Titanic struck an iceberg on the starboard side in April in the North Atlantic off the coast of Newfoundland.

• 24:09Josh Clark?

  And the starless night?

• 24:10Speaker 03

  I don't know about that.

• 24:12Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Uh, they were both said to be unsinkable. Um, more than half of the passengers of the Titanic, uh, perished and more than half of the passengers and crew on the Titan perished. So there's all these things in there, but you do a little more digging and you find out that Robertson was, uh, he was a seaman and he knew a bunch of this stuff and it's not unreasonable to think at the time they wanted to build the biggest ships and the word Titan would be a great name back then for a super big ship.

• 24:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  And that sailing route, uh, was a common one and there were icebergs and April might have been a common month for that kind of, uh, voyage. So all of it can be explained away, kind of, um, but it is definitely something you look at and go, ooh, interesting.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  It is interesting and it's amazing coincidence and it focuses the, uh, attention and captures the imagination. Um, but then, yeah, once you hear about Robertson's background, it becomes slightly less impressive. So then kind of to, oh, over the years, that little kernel got erased and added to it was that this idea for this book came to him in a trance, which bolsters the ESP.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. Is that true or has that just been added, uh?

• 25:26Josh Clark?

  I'm sure it was added over the years.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  Which is a big problem with this kind of anecdotal evidence is that, you know, it gets embellished and there's flourishes added.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Urban legendized.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. And, uh, it's just, it's not enough that this is a really interesting, unique.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  Circumstance or coincidence or whatever. There has to be this extra layer of proof, like it came to him in a trance.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 25:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Um, so back to Rhine. He did some, um, like I said, in the 1930s, he started studying this stuff, uh, with one of my favorite inventions, um, by his colleague Carl Zinnor. Uh, of course, if you've seen Ghostbusters, he was using. He was using a version of Xener cards.

• 26:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  The shapes weren't all exact. I think there was one that was different in Ghostbusters. But the original Xener cards were, it was a deck of 25 plain white cards with, each of them had one of five symbols, a circle, a plus sign, a square, a star, five pointed star, and the three wavy lines.

• 26:31Josh Clark?

  Hmm, like water, a river.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Is that what that is?

• 26:34Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  Okay. And the idea is that, just like in Ghostbusters, you hold it up and ask the, you know, not showing them the card, uh, obviously, not the symbol, and say, "What do you see?" And they say what they see, and then you record after the deck how many they got right.

• 26:51Josh Clark?

  Right, but the person holding the card is supposed to be thinking about what they're seeing.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 26:56Josh Clark?

  So that the other person, the target, the receiver, can pick it up telepathically.

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I did, they have these online. I took the test yesterday.

• 27:07Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  And I went through the 25 deck and I only got six out of 25, and at the end it just said, "You are not a psychic."

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 27:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I thought it was kinda funny.

• 27:17Josh Clark?

  Statistically speaking, for just one trial, that is more than chance. You did better than chance, so maybe you do have a touch.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Six of, what would chance be, I guess?

• 27:27Josh Clark?

  Chance would be, if there's five different ones.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  It'd be 20%?

• 27:31Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  And so this was six of 24 would be, uh, is that 25%?

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  No, that's, uh...

• 27:38Speaker 03

  No, that's less.

• 27:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. No, you did six of 24. You did 24 or 25?

• 27:44Speaker 03

  25.

• 27:45Josh Clark?

  So five of 25 would be chance.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Okay, so I got one more?

• 27:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Well, and I think like, three of the first eight or so, or six, I got, and I was like, "Oh, I've got the gift."

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  But I didn't know, like, it's randomly generated, and so it's not like someone was on the other side thinking of that card. So I literally, I was like, "What do I do?" I was like, "I'm just guessing."

• 28:07Josh Clark?

  So that brings up some interesting stuff, like, there's, there's evidence that when a machine is involved,

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:15Josh Clark?

  that there is no telepathy, there would only be clairvoyance, right?

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  So, I mean, if, if, if telepathy is you picking up what's in someone else's mind, and the computer is mindless, then you shouldn't be able, what you were saying, like, you should, it shouldn't, you should not be able to know what Xener card it's going to pick next, right? But there have been investigations using computers and using machines that show above chance.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  That there is some sort of weird interaction.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Like a random number generators?

• 28:48Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:49Josh Clark?

  So Princeton University has a department called the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Department, PER, right?

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  And PER has been doing studies for a couple of decades. They've done millions of trials.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:01Josh Clark?

  And basically, they'll say, this is a random number generator, or this, this machine operates randomly, or whatever. We want you to think of a number, and we want to see if you can influence the numbers that this computer spits out.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  Oh, so you're thinking of the number, then the, you're, okay, that makes sense.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  Like, the human is trying to affect the

• 29:20Speaker 03

  The computer.

• 29:20Josh Clark?

  The output, the behavior of the computer. Of course, if you're sitting across the room, or in another room, thinking about a number that a random generator should put out, it should have zero effect whatsoever.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a computer.

• 29:34Josh Clark?

  The weird thing is, is what Princeton has found, is that, yes, over enough trials, you, there is a slight, very slight, but measurable effect that human thought has on a random number generator.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 29:48Josh Clark?

  It's, it's on Princeton's website, and this is stuff that, like, is apparently accepted in the, in the scientific community, that the, the, um, trials that they are running are so widespread and so repeatable, and have been done so many times, that the data that they're coming up with is, is, it's significant.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  Well, Ryan, with his Zinn and Card experiments in the 30s, did find that some people, um, got what they thought were pretty impressive results, like, you know, a few, I can't remember their names, but

• 30:21Josh Clark?

  Hubert Pierce.

• 30:22Speaker 03

  Was he one of them?

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  He was the one.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Well, how many, what was his percentage?

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  He had one where he got, um, remember how you got three in a row, and you were like, oh my god?

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  He got 25 in a row once.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  25.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  No, I'm not kidding. He was also documented as selecting 558 correct out of 1850, which is, the odds of that happening by chance

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:46Josh Clark?

  were 22 billion to 1.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  Now, were these the early experiments?

• 30:50Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Because, okay, because I did read that, and this seems like, I can't believe he didn't check this, but apparently the early cards were a little translucent.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, some of them were, and then he corrected for that, and the percentages went down. And then they, I know other scientists said that you are somehow influencing with your body tell.

• 31:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Like, basically, you don't have a good enough poker face.

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, in the earliest Ryan experiments with the Zenner cards, he would hold the card up.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  And go square.

• 31:22Josh Clark?

  And he'd be making eye contact. Right, the guy, yeah, the guesser would be like, is it the wavy line? And yeah, he'd start shaking his head, almost impersonating. But he, that's called sensory leakage, where you, the person who is holding the card and knows what the card is.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:43Josh Clark?

  Somehow, there's some detail about your face that when you do 1,000 trials with somebody.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:50Josh Clark?

  They start to pick up on, and it affects their guess, it influences their guess. So to correct for that, to control for that.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  What's it called?

• 31:59Josh Clark?

  Sensory leakage.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  Gross.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Isn't that gross?

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:02Josh Clark?

  They came up with something called the Gansfeldt experiment.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Ah, yes, the German Gansfeldt. That means whole field in German, and that is when they started putting people, they would start depriving their other senses, basically.

• 32:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  They would be in a, like, a dimly lit room with red lighting, and they would have white noise, and they would have their eyes covered with these special glasses.

• 32:30Josh Clark?

  Or ping pong balls cut in half, like Kermit the Frog.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  I guess later on, they said, we should just make some glasses.

• 32:35Josh Clark?

  Exactly. We've got the funding.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  So basically, the idea was, let's rule out any of that gross sensory leakage.

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which smells.

• 32:48Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, apparently, later on in Ryan's experiments, after he started controlling for stuff, the percentages started to drop.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  Of correct guesses.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  And he got sad.

• 33:01Josh Clark?

  He was also, he's generally a respected researcher.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  For a couple of reasons. One, whenever he did, whenever evidence of like some sort of bias or fraud or something was brought to him, he corrected for it.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, he wore glasses and a white coat.

• 33:18Josh Clark?

  Right, that was another one.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  But also, he was daring enough to stake his entire career on a field of study.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  That will get anybody mocked.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 33:32Josh Clark?

  Publicly, privately, can really shut down a lot of opportunities for you. This guy and his wife, Louisa Rhine, both dedicated their careers to establishing the field of parapsychology and really studying it.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:47Josh Clark?

  Rather than just walking away from it.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't think he was like, I really want to prove this is true, was he?

• 33:53Josh Clark?

  Uh, yes, he did.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 33:55Josh Clark?

  That was, that was a huge criticism of him.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  Gotcha, he wanted to believe in it.

• 34:00Josh Clark?

  He was a definite believer.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 34:02Josh Clark?

  He was quoted by, I don't know what the guy's deal was, but one day he was visited by one person and the interviewer who went on to write a paper, I think in Scientific American, to expose him.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:15Josh Clark?

  He said, he kept a file of people, of the results of tests where people he suspected were purposefully getting things wrong because they didn't like him.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  To mess with his data.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:29Josh Clark?

  He just took those and never published them. He didn't include them in the.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 34:33Josh Clark?

  The results, which would definitely affect the number of correct hits, right?

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:39Josh Clark?

  That was a huge criticism. That's not good science at all.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  But he was definitely a believer, which was another criticism of it. But he was daring and he did, there was another story where, it's called the Levy affair, where a guy named Levy, who was an electrical engineer working in the lab.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:56Josh Clark?

  Unplugged. I guess a sensor that would correct negative hits for a little while during a trial.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:04Josh Clark?

  So that all that were recorded for a little bit were positive hits. And so, and then he plugged it back in. Well, this one guy saw what the guy was doing and went to Ryan, and Ryan went to the guy Levy and said, "Did you do this?" And Levy said, "Yes." He's like, "You're fired." And just like threw the results away and all that. So he wasn't like, he was a true believer, but he wasn't just some like outright fraud.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 35:26Josh Clark?

  But he was, and still is, under the microscope as much as probably any researcher in all of academia ever has been.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  All right. Well, right after this break, we'll talk a little bit about what skeptics say about ESP.

• 35:50Josh Clark?

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• 36:13Josh Clark?

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• 36:51Speaker 05

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 37:12Speaker 07

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions. You know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played, or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know, there's every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio, or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album, so, and you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  All right, Josh, one thing you'll hear skeptics say a lot is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

• 38:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  And I have to agree with them.

• 38:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  And it is an extraordinary claim here, and so far, there hasn't been extraordinary evidence. And one of the things I pointed to earlier that I think is what's going on, if you look at statistics, you look at 6 billion people on planet Earth, and them thinking a gazillion things each day, and that is scientific, by the way.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  Gazillion?

• 38:27Speaker 03

  At some point, somebody is going to think something that it mirrors something that happens in the near future, and it's just chance and coincidence.

• 38:35Josh Clark?

  I have a great example of that, man.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 38:38Josh Clark?

  It happened this very morning.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  What?

• 38:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I did. Um, I was at the printer, you know, we just moved offices. And I was at the printer and I had like an extra piece of paper that I didn't need and I realized like we have no paper recycling here. So on my way back-

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Not yet, that is. Everyone out there is like, what kind of office would not have recycling?

• 38:56Josh Clark?

  Right, we just said, we have a, we have a fifty-five gallon drum that we throw stuff into, that's, it catches on fire.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then we send it out to see-

• 39:03Josh Clark?

  We have a burning drum, that's what it's called.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  No, we're getting those soon.

• 39:06Josh Clark?

  Um, right, and we are getting them soon. I know this because on my way back to my desk, I popped into Izzy, the IT guy who's also the head of all recycling and stuff here.

• 39:16Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 39:16Josh Clark?

  I was like, Izzy, we need a, a paper recycling bins by the printer. And he goes, I'm writing an email right now to everybody-

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:25Josh Clark?

  About that very thing.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  You almost did your Izzy impression.

• 39:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was close. Um, and so like, I thought about it, that's pretty amazing.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:36Josh Clark?

  You know, but it was about nine in the morning, and this is a company-wide email. So it'd be something that Izzy would probably knock out about that time.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:45Josh Clark?

  The reason I was thinking of is because I was just at the printer.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:48Josh Clark?

  We just moved into this office and we didn't have bins yet, so it was still a potential thing for somebody to be thinking about or doing or writing an email about.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  Um, and so there's all these different, really overlooked variables or factors to this whole thing that, that you don't think of. Instead, it just seems like an amazing coincidence or ESP.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:08Josh Clark?

  To me, the really significant thing was that I happened to be researching ESP while this happened.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:15Josh Clark?

  That's what really kind of stood out to me.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:17Josh Clark?

  But if you really kind of look at it, like, there's a finite amount of things that people could think about in any given day, in any given context, in an office or something like that.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:27Josh Clark?

  Like, had, had I been a goat at a petting zoo and I went over and, um, talked to the cow and the cow was writing the email about recycling bins.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 40:38Josh Clark?

  Maybe, but we're in an office, I'm talking to the guy about recycling bins. There's just a lot of stuff that you kind of, once you take that into account, it becomes less amazing. Like, like the, the guy writing the Titan Titanic book.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know what used to happen to me now that I think of it is, um, I used to, and this, it's weird, it was only with phone landlines, it hadn't happened with the cellphone. But I used to, like, know the phone was gonna ring right before it rang.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Like, almost go to reach for it. Um-

• 41:09Speaker 03

  And it, I mean, it's not like it happened all the time, but it happened enough times where I was like, huh, that's weird.

• 41:13Josh Clark?

  Sure, I know what you're talking about.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  But I, and that was all it was to me. I was not like, I have the gift.

• 41:18Josh Clark?

  But think about it, in that respect too, you know fifteen, twenty people. So was it you knew who was calling, or just that the phone was about to ring?

• 41:26Speaker 03

  No, just that it was about to ring.

• 41:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, that is weird. You definitely do have ESP.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  Um, or maybe, I don't know, maybe the phone made a little tick noise right before it rang that I didn't pick up on.

• 41:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  But only subconsciously, you know?

• 41:42Josh Clark?

  Well, that's another explanation for it.

• 41:44Speaker 03

  A tick noise, I don't know.

• 41:45Josh Clark?

  That, um, right, that, um, there is, uh, subliminal stuff in the environment. That is just too weak in nature for us to pick up on consciously, but our unconscious does, or our subconscious does. Which frankly opens up a whole other can of worms, you know? Uh, as far as, you know, how real is that kind of thing? There, but probably a little closer to reality is the idea that, um, our attention isn't focused on everything that we're picking up at all times. Like, like I see your beard and I see your shirt and everything, but I'm still also picking up like sensory information from like Jerry's computer that I can see in my peripheral vision or whatever. My attention isn't focused on it, but my brain is still receiving information.

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  So the idea that our brains can put it together, all this information that we're not aware consciously that we're receiving.

• 42:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  Um, but we're still getting impressions from it. That's, uh, that, that could be a great explanation for ESP as well.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you know what? Now that I think about it, the fact that it's never happened with my cellphone sort of makes sense because maybe there, it was a mechanical function, a, a landline ringing.

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like you said, a click or a tick, but I think you meant like a click.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  And it wasn't even the, the newer model, this was back in the day when it was like.

• 43:01Josh Clark?

  Princess phone.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, a ringing like bell.

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  So maybe that does explain it.

• 43:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I've got another good example that I came across in researching this. Um, let's say that, uh, you and I are hanging out.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:13Josh Clark?

  And you're humming, uh, "Baby, I'm a firework," right? Just over and over again.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  I don't know that song.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  But I'm reading, uh.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Yes, you do.

• 43:22Josh Clark?

  No, I don't.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  Who is it?

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Katy Perry.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  I don't know Katy Perry. Anyway, um.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Although I will have to say I did love that halftime show.

• 43:30Josh Clark?

  It was great.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Well, it was, it was hysterical.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  What's up with the sharks being a meme now? I didn't think they were really significant.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  And she looked like she worked at corn dog on a stick.

• 43:40Josh Clark?

  I don't know what that is. I thought all corn dogs were on sticks.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Nah, it's that place in the, or, uh, hot dog on a stick, maybe it was called. That place in the mall where they wore those big giant, uh, pinwheel colored hats. No, I don't know anything about Katy Perry, but it was the funniest, most, like, the crazy just kept coming and coming and coming. And I was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen.

• 44:00Josh Clark?

  So.

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 44:01Josh Clark?

  In this universe, you're well aware of Katy Perry and her song Firework, and you're humming it to yourself. But I'm sitting there reading, uh, The New Yorker.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:10Josh Clark?

  And I'm engrossed in it, and not, I don't notice that. You get up to go make some nachos, and you come back in, and you catch my attention because you're, you're coming back in with some nachos, and they smell awesome. And now my attention is directed to you, and you're still humming Firework, right?

• 44:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  And I'm like, I was just thinking about that song Firework. I had that in my head. How crazy. We must be connected. I didn't realize that you had been humming it earlier.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 44:35Josh Clark?

  And beneath my awareness, I, I picked it up, although, once I became aware that you were humming it, it seemed to me like I had ESP.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and that ties into another explanation, is that people who do seem to have that gift are just really, really hyper observant on minute details. Like, the same people that can pick up on micro expressions.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  They might feel like they have the gift because they're just really in tune to what's going on around them, and not just, you know, like a big lunkhead walking around.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  So a lot of people who believe in ESP say, yes, we agree with that, especially parapsychology researchers. And there are still plenty of respected ones out there. There's a guy named, um, Daryl Bem.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I saw that thing you sent. He, he's been doing this for a while now.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Legitimately.

• 45:24Josh Clark?

  We should talk about him, but there, to, to button up that point, there is, um... A lot of parapsychologists, or even just plain old psychologists who are researching ESP.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  Um, who say, yes, that definitely, most likely accounts for almost all of it.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  And that's good for us to be thinking about that. And that in and of itself deserves like academic inquiry and research, right?

• 45:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:50Josh Clark?

  But, there are still some experience, experiments that are being produced by guys like Daryl Bim, that um, are showing some weird results that go beyond this kind of explanation.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and one of the prob, well, we'll talk about the problems with even this research, um, about it being reproducible in a second, but, he did a couple of experi, this is from NPR, um.

• 46:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Krowich wrote this.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, from, from, from Radiolab.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Nice, I didn't know that. Um, these are the two that he pointed out. He did nine different experiments, but um, the two that he highlighted was uh, at Cornell, which is where Bim is a, uh, is, does his work, right?

• 46:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he's a, again, a very respected psychologist.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  And this study that, of these experiments was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, which is a respected journal.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so they, the first one was a computer quiz. They took a hundred students, fifty males and fifty women. And um, basically, they showed a computer screen with two little curtains on it, side by side, and said, behind one is nothing, a, a brick wall. And behind the other is something sexy.

• 47:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Some kind of, you know, I, I was about to call it pornographic, but who knows, maybe it's art. Nakedness.

• 47:09Josh Clark?

  Eroticism.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  Eroticism.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  Gross. Um.

• 47:14Josh Clark?

  Does that just make you feel like your dad saying it or something?

• 47:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, this room's too small for you to say this kind of thing. Um, so, basically, he would say, you tell me, um, what, what you think you're going to see. And they were all hooked up to uh, to machines to read the, you know, their, what's going on in their body, of course.

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  And um, you would think it would be a fifty fifty result, but, they actually got a fifty three point one percent result for the, uh, what uh, Krowich calls erotic stimuli.

• 47:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Um, and basically, they.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  They think, or at least that's what Bem thinks, is that one possibility is if there is, if they think they're gonna see something erotically stimulating, then it got passed back through time.

• 48:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's kinda his position, is that retro cognition thing.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:06Josh Clark?

  That they somehow, their future selves who saw the erotic image was stimulated enough that that stimulation traveled backwards three seconds and influenced their choice.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Because they would, they would be slightly stimulated physiologically, right, before they guessed. And he said before the computer even chose which, which one to show.

• 48:27Josh Clark?

  Right, they, right, they were making their choices often correct before the computer chose to show an erotic or non-erotic image. And fifty-three percent, it doesn't sound like much, but Krowich points out a couple of things. One, that when the, there was a control group that was shown just non-erotic pictures.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:46Josh Clark?

  They did forty-nine point eight percent correct, which is chance, fifty-fifty.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  And they were all not happy.

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  They were like, I don't wanna be the control.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  They're like, can we get a little steamier in here? But, and he also pointed out that fifty-three percent, fifty-three point one to be specific, doesn't sound like much, but apparently, that's a point-two percent chance where, on a scale between zero and one.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:15Josh Clark?

  Where zero is, it's not gonna happen, and, and one is that it's definitely gonna happen.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  And apparently, as far as correlation goes, or links between two things, something affecting another, a point-two is about the same as the link between aspirin and heart attack prevention, the link between calcium intake and bone mass, the link between secondhand smoke and lung cancer.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  So, things that are touted as like, pay attention to this.

• 49:45Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so, stuff that we accept, there's like, yeah, yeah. If you're around secondhand smoke, you, you can get cancer from that.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Interesting, but this is probably poo-pooed.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  Has the same, exactly.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:55Josh Clark?

  It is. And later on, a meta-analysis of Bem's experiments, some other experiments that were carried out afterward, and then some other experiments all grouped together, a meta-analysis showed that they, they weren't...

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  It wasn't statistically significant if you took all of the existing body of literature of these experiments.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:18Josh Clark?

  But it was a new scientist article and it was pretty cool. In the comment section, somebody said, "Yeah, it's not reproducible, but a lot of science isn't reproducible." And it reminded me of our scientific method episode.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:33Josh Clark?

  Where like apparently a lot of trials that pharmaceuticals are based on aren't reproducible. Wasn't it like 50% of them or something like that?

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, which doesn't surprise me, of course.

• 50:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  All right, and then there was this other experiment that I need you to explain to me because I didn't understand it.

• 50:50Josh Clark?

  Okay, you ready?

• 50:51Speaker 03

  Like, I got the first part, but I didn't, it didn't make sense to me.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  Because it's a little mind-blowing.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:56Josh Clark?

  So, you know how like if you are studying something?

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

  And you write it down?

• 51:01Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  It gets in your brain a little more?

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:03Josh Clark?

  So that when you're tested on it later, you will recall it more easily?

• 51:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a common study method, write something down.

• 51:11Josh Clark?

  Okay, so Bem carried out a very simple experiment that did the opposite of that. First, he showed some people a bunch of words, 48 random words, I think nouns like tree or something like that.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he told them to visualize it though, right?

• 51:25Josh Clark?

  Right, so they saw all 48 words and thought about them.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Not visualize the letters, but visualize the thing.

• 51:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  Like, see the tree in your head.

• 51:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just to kind of try to memorize all 48 words.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:37Josh Clark?

  Then the computer randomly selected 24 of those words.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  And then, after they'd done that, Bem gave them a test of recall to see how many they recalled, right?

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:49Josh Clark?

  So the people had to type out the words they recalled.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:54Josh Clark?

  Then, after that, the computer randomly selected 24 of the 48 words for the people to type, after they'd already taken the test of recall.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  And those 24 words are the ones that people more consistently got right on the earlier test.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 52:14Josh Clark?

  So, it's another example of that retro cognition, that these people getting the words in their heads after the test somehow went backward.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:24Josh Clark?

  And influenced their recall and memory.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  For the test that they took before they... Learn them.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  That makes more sense.

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  A little.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is a little, but see, time travel melts my brain, too.

• 52:36Josh Clark?

  Right, so this guy published this stuff in like 2010.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:40Josh Clark?

  And like it was, it made a huge, huge splash, huge criticism. The, the academic journal was criticized. And Ben was, you know, pilloried and all that, but he still, you know, put out these, these very reproducible, understandable, simple exercises that still showed statistically speaking, there were some significant results that went beyond chance.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  So when it comes to debunking ESP, one thing that you're not gonna, you know, you said fraud, you're not gonna see a lot of people call researchers outright frauds, because that's just sort of a dangerous thing to say.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  It's not nice. But there are people out there who, I guess, are criticized for, you know, basically trying to call out, and this is something completely different, but these, these onstage psychic shows.

• 53:29Josh Clark?

  Like crossing over with John Edwards.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, it's easy to pick those people out and say, "You're a big fraud, and this is not true, of course, and all you're doing is cold reading." Cold reading, we talked about in the animal, pet psychics episode.

• 53:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  That's basically when you get up on stage and you say, "Sir, I'm sensing someone, you're having some trouble with, with another man in your life, with the name of J, or, or is it H, or O?"

• 53:59Josh Clark?

  Maybe P.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  Or maybe it's P. "Yes, P, my, my boss."

• 54:03Josh Clark?

  Peter.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, exactly. And that's all a cold reading is, is throwing out these really broad things that anyone can latch on to.

• 54:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  So it's really easy to call those people out, and there's a guy, sort of a guy famous for doing that, his name is James Randi, and he's famous for his offer of one million dollars.

• 54:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  To anyone that can prove their psychic ability, which of course, no one stepped up to do that. But then he gets poo-pooed a little bit, like, you're just making a mockery of... Trying to legitimately disprove something.

• 54:36Josh Clark?

  And mockery is absolutely the right word.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:39Josh Clark?

  And to me, the presence of mockery indicates the absence of objectivity.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:44Josh Clark?

  Right? So like what you're dealing with then with a guy like that is a set of beliefs, a belief system running up against another belief system.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:54Josh Clark?

  Just like a couple of religions or something like that. It's not objectivity against fraud or anything like that. It's belief against belief or something.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:03Josh Clark?

  Um, and, and yeah, the idea of lumping together John Edwards with Daryl Bem.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:10Josh Clark?

  Is just, that's, you know, fraudulent in and of itself.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's just, they call that theatrics, just like the onstage theatrics of a stage psychic.

• 55:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  And I believe, I totally agree.

• 55:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  You know?

• 55:23Josh Clark?

  I, I do too. I think there's a definite room for a healthy scientific inquiry into just about anything, whether skeptics believe in it or not.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Sure. If you can get some funding for it, who cares?

• 55:35Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  That's my motto.

• 55:38Josh Clark?

  Uh, you got anything else on ESP?

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Uh, let me think.

• 55:43Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 55:44Speaker 03

  No.

• 55:45Josh Clark?

  I've got, uh, one more thing. I found, I came across a 1990, I think, five Nightline with Ted Koppel.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:53Josh Clark?

  Where, um, the news broke that the CIA had been studying ESP and trying to do remote viewing what Ronson was talking about in The Men Who Stare at Goats.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, John Ronson.

• 56:02Josh Clark?

  When it finally became declassified in 1995, Ted Koppel did like a 20-minute Nightline segment on it. Totally worth watching. It's some pretty softball questions, but Robert Gates, who would later become the, the, um, head of defense.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:17Josh Clark?

  He's on there just basically trying as politely as possible to show that he does not believe in any of this, even though he was a former CIA director. And, um, it's just neat.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Plus you get to watch Koppel again.

• 56:29Josh Clark?

  Right. He was a great news man.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I miss those dudes. I miss, uh, I was just thinking yesterday about, uh, Brokaw.

• 56:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, rather.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  I was, I was always a Brokaw man.

• 56:40Josh Clark?

  Did you? I, I liked Peter Jennings, he was great.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't even know.

• 56:44Josh Clark?

  All of them were great.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  I don't even have any idea who does Night in the News now, I don't watch it.

• 56:48Josh Clark?

  It was Brian Williams until about a day ago.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Did he get fired?

• 56:52Josh Clark?

  He, like, got.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  I, I know the whole kerfuffle, but he didn't get fired for that, did he?

• 56:56Josh Clark?

  I, I, I'm using my ESP to predict that by the time this came, this comes out, he will not be there anymore.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 57:03Josh Clark?

  I think this is getting big quick.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 57:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Twitter's involved.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  The Twitter takedown.

• 57:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Uh, if you want to know more about ESP, uh, the internet was virtually set up for you to go find out more about it. Um, you can start by typing ESP in the search bar at howstuffworks.com. Since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, before we do listener mail, I just want to give a quick shout out to my buddy Isaac McNary. Uh, if you remember, I did a Judge John Hodgman episode with Emily, in which I did a bad home renovation. And, um, this dude, Stuff You Should Know listener from Kansas, carpenter, master carpenter, said, "Hey, man, I'll come and stay with you and help you do your, your, uh, project there, right?" And I said, "This sounds crazy." And he actually came and did it. And it looks awesome.

• 57:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  And he's a super cool guy, and if you're in Kansas, the, near El Dorado, Kansas, there's no better guy to hire.

• 58:01Josh Clark?

  The fabled city of El Dorado, Kansas?

• 58:04Speaker 03

  It's El Dorado, actually.

• 58:05Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  He has to point out. But, um, not only is he a great carpenter and a cool guy, but he works with a nonprofit called Outreach Program. Uh, and you can find it at outreachprogram.org, where they're basically feeding the world.

• 58:18Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 58:18Speaker 03

  They package food and they, they get people together in a room and package these mass quantities of food to send to, uh, other countries and, uh, feed the hungry.

• 58:27Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  And he's just a really good dude. So, thanks to Isaac for that. And my kitchen looks looking good. So again, for his nonprofit, that is outreachprogram.org. And if you need a great carpenter and you're in Kansas, check out retrofit remodeling.

• 58:42Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  All right, listener mail. I'm gonna call this Pronunciation Help. Hey, guys, I'm a botanist and just wanted to throw you a rope to help you out with pronouncing plant family names. All plant family names end in A-C-E-A-E.

• 58:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, I thought I got that wrong.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  It is a mess of vowels, guys. When you read it, you should just imagine you are spelling ACE as in A-C-E. So when you read a plant family name, just break off

• 59:13Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, A-C.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  the A-C-E and read the first part and then spell A-C-E. So the plant family for poison oak is Anacardia Anacardia C-E. So it's just Anacardiaceae. I remember it by imagining the aneurysm and cardiac arrest I would have if I fell into it. A-N-A-C-A-R-D-I.

• 59:39Josh Clark?

  What?

• 59:40Speaker 03

  Well, she spelled out Anacardi.

• 59:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  The first two, first letters from each of those words. Anyway, guys, I love your podcast. Find it endearing when you two puzzle out on pronunciations.

• 59:50Josh Clark?

  A-C-E.

• 59:51Speaker 03

  A-C-E.

• 59:52Josh Clark?

  That's good to know.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I love you bunches. And that is from Jane. And she said, PS, in Europe, they pronounce plant families completely differently. Other parts of the US.

• 1:00:02Josh Clark?

  A-E-C.

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

  Other parts of the US might have other conventions, but the above pronunciation is standard in California.

• 1:00:09Josh Clark?

  Oh, well. Okay.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:00:15Josh Clark?

  A-C-E.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  A-C-E.

• 1:00:16Josh Clark?

  If you want to let us know something that we should've known before we even recorded, but you're generous enough with your time and effort to correct us, I guess is a way to put it.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:00:29Josh Clark?

  We, that was very helpful. Thanks a lot, Jane. If you want to be like Jane in other words, you can send us an email to [email protected].

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