Selects: How Rape Kits Work

Rape kits are simple forensic evidence collection kits used when someone is sexually assaulted. But the story is deeper than this. Learn all about rape kits, the sad backlog problem, and what you can do to help, in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:09Speaker 02

  Hey everybody, happy Saturday. Chuck here with the selects pick for the week. And this week it's a pretty heavy one, everyone. This is about rape kits and the episode is how rape kits work. And this is from April 2nd, 2019. And the reason that I chose this select is because it's just a super important topic about the funding of rape kits, the lack of funding, rather, for rape kits and the backlog of processing rape kits. And it's something that should be known far and wide. So that's why I picked it for this week's episode.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:58Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there. And now whatever chipperness you might hear in my voice can decline from here on out.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. This is another one of those that's a tough topic. It's not going to be loaded with jokes.

• 2:16Josh Clark?

  No. I can't, I couldn't, I can't think of a single one. And anytime like I started it'd be like, oh, maybe we should come up with jokes. No.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  It's not like we do that, anyway.

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Like, this would be a good place for a joke. Let me get our writers on it.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Insert joke here in brackets.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yes, obviously. I mean, if you saw the title about rape kits, hopefully that is the trigger warning you need, but we might as well just say it out loud. A trigger warning for this one. That's all we need to say, I think, right?

• 2:46Josh Clark?

  Pretty much. I mean, we're talking about rape, sexual assault in general. And specifically, I want to say, Chuck, I've had on the list for a really long time rape as a topic itself. I think it definitely deserves it. But it's, I've just been kind of walking past it every time I go down the list, you know?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  I think it's due, especially after this one.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  But it's almost like we needed to do this one first, or else it wouldn't be stuff you should know.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  If we didn't do something tangential to the bigger topic.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  So we'll do that eventually.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, this comes out, this is one of those happenstance things. As I was researching and reading this stuff, I was like, oh, you know what? We should check and see when Sexual Assault Awareness Month is. And it turned out, it's April. And it turned out that April 2nd, the day that this drops, is Day of Action. So they encourage people to wear teal on April 2nd, which is today.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  I'm almost wearing-

• 3:46Speaker 02

  And you're wearing teal today.

• 3:47Josh Clark?

  I'm wearing, well, it's mint green, but it's awfully close to teal.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's weird how this is all coming together like this. So-

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  You know what Action Day should be for Sexual Assault Awareness Month?

• 3:56Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  It should be like A Purge. Like The Purge. Yeah, that's what it should be like.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I haven't seen the movie, but I get it.

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I haven't either, but I know the premise.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  And that Sexual Assault Awareness Month is carried out by NSVRC.org, the National Sexual Violence Resource Center.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  And also, I know that we're doing a lot of precursoring here.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  But there is one section here on what to do if you've been sexually assaulted.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Two dudes.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Explaining this, like, just do this, like, we're not taking it that lightly, you know?

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Like, we know that it is extremely difficult to do anything, much less, like, follow all the exact steps.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  So many sexual assaults and rapes get unreported for a thousand reasons. So, we're not taking this lightly, but this is our job, this is what we do, and this is an important topic, so.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Please excuse two dudes explaining a section on what to do when you're sexually assaulted.

• 4:57Josh Clark?

  But I think that also raises another point that I want to touch on too, Chuck. Sexual assault doesn't just happen to women.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:03Josh Clark?

  It happens to men.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  The trans community is also a big target for sexual assault, unfortunately. So, while it is largely women.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  From what I've seen, women between 18 and 35. It hits all demographics and targets.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Across the spectrum of human beings.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:23Josh Clark?

  Including men.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24Josh Clark?

  So, I wanted to say that as well.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  All right, now, on with the show.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  So.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Should we do the history part first, I think?

• 5:32Josh Clark?

  I was thinking so. I think we should say what a rape kit actually is.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Oh, that's something we always do wrong.

• 5:38Josh Clark?

  But we're doing it right, though. We've hit everything right so far, I think. I think. A rape kit, and I'm so sorry, everybody, to keep saying rape kit. They're also called sexual assault evidence collection kits. You can understand why people call them rape kits.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  But from here on out, maybe we'll just try to say kit.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  They are really simply a box. I saw shoebox size. Ed says microwave oven size.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Guess it depends on the oven.

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  It's a big old box.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:10Josh Clark?

  And inside this box is all the stuff you need to collect the evidence of a sexual assault.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that a professional uses.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is not like a home thing.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  No, but it does include such thorough step-by-step directions that someone who's not specifically trained to do this can carry out this kind of examination.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  I wonder if anyone does this, like, can you buy these and perform this at home? If you're too. A thousand reasons why you wouldn't go into a hospital?

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. I think that you, you can, you can buy them from medical supply or law enforcement supply places. Both of them sell kits and they're actually relatively cheap. I saw between five, 15, 25 bucks. So yeah, you totally could.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Is it still evidence, though?

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  Probably not. The defense would just shoot holes in it all day long and the jury would be like, "I'm sorry."

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Right, which they're already looking to do.

• 7:07Josh Clark?

  Part of the, part of the process of, of collecting this evidence and combining it all together to create this, this kit is, it begins a chain of custody.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:18Josh Clark?

  And if you do it at home and then bring it in, they're gonna be like, "Come on."

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Right, and there are a lot of problems with the chain of custody that we're obviously gonna cover as well. When you leave it to the professionals.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  It's just a big mess, but...

• 7:31Josh Clark?

  It is a big mess, but, but it's still, more often than not, it seems to be, it seems to have been a good invention.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  And that, that is the thing, it is an invention. And it wasn't always around. It's actually a relatively new invention. It wasn't until, I think, 1978 that the first ones actually came into official use by the, I believe, the police department in Chicago and then later on Illinois, which served as a bit of a laboratory for it. And it was so successful that within another year, it started to spread around the country.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just, I mean, it sounds like, it's hard to believe, but just collecting and having the tools in a box and collecting the evidence and putting it in a box for storage, just that alone coming around, went a long way toward helping victims be taken seriously.

• 8:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, legitimizing rape and sexual assault.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's sad, but that's, that's the case. When they were first brought out, they were called Vitullo kits in a lot of circles, V-I-T-U-L-L-O. And Louis or Lewis? I never know.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  I'm thinking since he's in Chicago Louis.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Oh, really? I thought you were gonna say Louis, cause Chicago.

• 8:45Josh Clark?

  I think it'd be IE if it were in Chicago Louis.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  All right, well, we'll go with Louis.

• 8:50Josh Clark?

  Let's just call him Chicago Lou.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Chicago Lou Vitulow. Now, he sounds like a mobster.

• 8:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Chicago Lou Vitulow?

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  I think the Vitulow's really not helping.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  No, but he was not a mobster. He was actually, uh, worked in the Chicago PD's forensic crime lab. He was a sergeant and lieutenant who, uh, did not invent the rape kit, but he was, um, charged with sort of codifying it and putting his stamp. Because he was one of the first people in law enforcement that was trying to create a standardized procedure.

• 9:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was already a very well-respected forensic investigator.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  So for him to say, "Hey, I'm a big-city forensic investigator, widely respected, and this thing is the bomb."

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:33Josh Clark?

  "This is a great invention. We should all start using it, and here's how." It really helped spread and give it a boost early on. But even though they were called Vitulow kits, um, there's, there, it's not to say like, he was like, "Yeah, I invented this."

• 9:48Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  I think he was just, um, uh, known in the mind of other law enforcement agents that, like, they associated him in, in these kits. So that's what everybody else called it. But really, if you wanna nail down an inventor of the rape kit, it was a woman named, um, Martha Marty, uh, Goddard?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, Goddard. And Vitulow, I read some interviews with his grandkids, and it's like a really proud legacy. They still get letters from people and from women. Um, Goddard is, she is unplugged. Like, uh, I saw one interview with her where they talked about, and we're gonna cover this heavily later, but the, um, the kit backlog. She didn't even know about it because she's like, no TV, no internet, no newspapers. She really just sort of checked out.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  And she was like, "That's really sad to hear about that."

• 10:38Josh Clark?

  It is very sad. So I saw a quote somewhere that, um, I think is Vitulow's grandkid said that, that he would be spinning in his grave if he knew about this backlog, which we'll get to later.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Um, so Goddard was, uh, a survivor of sexual assault, and she got together with some other victims, basically.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  The writing was on the wall like that, you know, things weren't being taken seriously in many police departments.

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she saw firsthand that like that they weren't collecting evidence correctly, that they weren't, they weren't taking it seriously, which is still a huge problem.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:11Josh Clark?

  And she's, she decided to do something about it.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Well, the first questions and still in a lot of areas, probably the first questions still are like, well, what was the situation?

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  What were you wearing?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  And if it starts with, well, I met a guy at a bar, then you're sort of discounted, like out of the gate.

• 11:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Very, very sad and very unfair, but she formed a group called Citizens for Victims Assistance in the 1970s and went to work like she said she was doing 16 hour days, visiting hospitals, talking to cops, going to police stations, lawyers, judges, basically learning and working on everyone she could.

• 11:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  About how to get a better system going.

• 11:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  But she needed money and she got that from of all places, the Playboy Foundation.

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Hugh Hefner's foundation, his daughter Christie was friends with Marty Goddard. And I think Playboy gave her 10 grand, which is equal to about 42 grand in today's money.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:12Josh Clark?

  And that was enough to go start assembling these kits because one of the points from the outset of these, these kits was that they be inexpensive because hospital, they wanted to remove as many barriers as possible for hospitals to start implementing these things widely. And one, one really easy way to do it was to say, here, these are virtually free or in some cases, these are free because this community group raised a bunch of money to purchase the implements of these kits, put them all together and now here you're, you just use them, that's all.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Which is a success story in and of itself, when you know how like Big Pharma works and the medical community in America, like I could have seen this being like, well, these swabs and envelopes and combs, this will be $7,000.

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Per kit.

• 12:58Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Because we put it all in a box for you.

• 13:00Josh Clark?

  Marty Goddard got in the way of that from the outset and still to this day, I mean, that's why they're not any more than five to 25 dollars, even from like a medical supplier.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, amazing.

• 13:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she's a hashtag hero.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Are we doing that now?

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Hashtag in it?

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  We're late to the game, my friend.

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  As always. Have you heard about this hashtag thing?

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  You gotta go like this with your two fingers on each hand. Hashtag. Okay.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  See, I knew you'd get a funny in there.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  So they were developed before DNA evidence was even around. So this was back when it was just like hair and fiber, fingernails, stuff like that. Still very valuable. And I think one of the kits that's sort of common these days is what's known as the Southwestern Sexual Assault Evidence Collection Kit.

• 13:52Josh Clark?

  It's like the gold standard.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  I guess so. And it's called the Southwestern, obviously. It was in Texas. The Attorney General's Office there in 1998 kind of created this one. And that's sort of, like you said, the one that people look to or base theirs on.

• 14:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because I mean, they took the groundwork that Marty Goddard came up with, going from to all of what you'd call in the corporate world and buzz speak, all the stakeholders in the process of apprehending and convicting people who are, who sexually assault other people.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:27Josh Clark?

  You know, scumbags.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  You can just say monsters.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, monsters. And she figured out exactly how to put this together and laid the groundwork. And then from what I understand in the late 90s, the Texas Attorney General's Office said, let's purify this. Let's make it even better.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Like using what we know. And then that's what's in use largely today. Although you're gonna find different kits, there's no, there's no actual standard, it's a de facto standard.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:54Josh Clark?

  And in the same point, different hospitals you go to, even in the same state, are gonna follow slightly different procedures. They might use slightly different kits.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:04Josh Clark?

  But some states have said, no, this is important enough, like, here is how you do this. Here is the law of how you conduct a rape kit examination.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so Goddard and Vittulo, you know, his stamp of approval, her working hard to get these things, you know, built from the ground up. The work that they did together was like really set the standard in the late 70s for this across the country just becoming. Just a more normalized way to collect evidence and take it more seriously.

• 15:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  It was a big, big deal.

• 15:37Josh Clark?

  Big one, yeah. Not just literally having, you know, all of the implements you need to conduct this investigation, but just the very presence of these sexual assault evidence collection kits. The fact that they exist says law enforcement is saying, okay, yeah, this is a bigger deal than we've been treating it.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:56Josh Clark?

  You want to take a break?

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 15:58Josh Clark?

  We're going to take a break, everybody. I don't know if you just heard, but we'll be right back.

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  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 18:28Josh Clark?

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• 19:40Josh Clark?

  All right Chuck, so the very reason that these kids exist is because sexual assault is a very unique kind of crime in that the victim, the body of the victim is a crime scene.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:56Josh Clark?

  A walking, talking crime scene. I mean, like if you're murdered or something and like your body is dumped somewhere, your body is still a crime scene.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:05Josh Clark?

  But you're walking around, moving, you can actually contaminate the very crime scene from your assault, just by doing things that any normal human being would want to do.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:16Josh Clark?

  After being sexually assaulted.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 20:18Josh Clark?

  It's in that sense, a very unique kind of crime scene. And that's what Sexual Assault Evidence Collection kids are for, is to step by step, methodically, systematically collect that evidence and preserve it so that it can later be analyzed and used in court.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so these are the recommended steps if you've been a victim. And like I said, there are a thousand reasons that you would not want to do any and all of these things. And we totally get that. But, and I think Ed puts it in a really good way in this article. He said, "To receive the best possible care, just medically for yourself, and to have the best chances of collecting good evidence, it needs to be within a 24-hour window, ideally."

• 21:04Josh Clark?

  It's critical. The 24 hour is critical. And then apparently up to three days, it's still viable. But after three days, most experts are like, "It's not going to get anything."

• 21:12Speaker 02

  As far as DNA, which is the real, you know, really what you're looking for.

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  You will be very upset, and you may be in literal shock. You may have had one or more panic attacks. All of these things make it very difficult to carry out like logical steps.

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  But, experts say that the first thing you want to do, obviously, is get somewhere safe as soon as you can. Get away if your attacker is around, and try and find someone, you know, an advocate for you, whether it's a friend or a family member, who can kind of be with you in the first, you know, hours after this horrific event has happened.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Go to the emergency room. Even if you're not injured, quote unquote, physically, like, you really should go to the emergency room as soon as you can.

• 22:03Josh Clark?

  This is a big one, not just because the emergency room is where you're going to have this kid administered.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  But also because it takes such tremendous reserve, to draw on such tremendous reserves, to take yourself out of the comfort and safety of your home, which is probably where you went. To not take a shower, which is another huge step, too.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:28Josh Clark?

  And to just say, "I'm going to go to the emergency room."

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:31Josh Clark?

  And undergo this procedure and let a bunch of strangers poke and prod me and tell them about what just happened. That's the ideal of what you're supposed to do.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:40Josh Clark?

  But if you look at it in that respect, that's just such a, that's such a huge thing on top of what just happened.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:47Josh Clark?

  That this is required of you to catch the person who just did it.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  I mean, from a bystander's perspective, it just makes you want to catch them even more, you know? But that's on top of the assault as well.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's not like the trauma is over for you.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Anyway, it may never be, but go to the ER as soon as you can. If it's not right, if you, if you go to sleep and wake up the next day, you can go to the emergency room then. Like, it's just important that you go whenever you feel like you can do so. And like you said, it's probably the least intuitive thing you could imagine, to not want to shower and bathe yourself. But that gets rid of a lot of evidence. So, it's terrible, but they say, "Please do not shower."

• 23:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  They say, "Please."

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Please, with a capital P.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  If you...

• 23:46Speaker 02

  You should keep the clothes you're wearing on if you can. If understandably you can't or don't want to, save them.

• 23:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, put them in a bag and take them to the ER with you.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, if you have the wherewithal to change clothes, and this is something that they will have you do in the hospital, have you stand over like butcher paper or maybe even a towel. If you have the wherewithal to do that, wherever you are, whether it's at home or in a hotel or someplace, put that in there too, because when you're changing your clothes, that's when, you know, DNA evidence can fall out, whether it's a hair.

• 24:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Or whatever.

• 24:22Josh Clark?

  Skin particles.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Right, just collect everything you can and put it in a bag. Certainly do not wash those clothes. And then take those with you to the emergency room.

• 24:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  And then the last thing, you should know, just because you're going to an emergency room, and even if you are tested with this forensic kit, you're not required to file a police report, ever.

• 24:44Josh Clark?

  That's a big one.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  But especially right away, it's not like they're gonna have a cop in there grilling you. You can file this police report whenever you want to.

• 24:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you are not comfortable filing a police report right then, you can do what's called a Jane Doe, or I imagine a John Doe examination, where they just go through all the steps and collect all the evidence, but you never see a cop. They don't call the police until after you've left. So that's a big one for a lot of people.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  Ed points out, though, in some states, there is still a statute of limitations of between 10 and 21 years, although some states have removed the statute of limitations for a felony sexual assault. But there can be a clock ticking.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  But we're talking 10 years.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  At the least, right?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  So yeah, you don't have to, this isn't something you have to knock out that day.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:38Josh Clark?

  If you don't want to, if you're not ready to.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:41Josh Clark?

  When you go to the ER for this kind of examination, you are signing up for a few hours, it's gonna take a few hours, it's not a quick procedure.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  And there's something else that you should know, that I really hope won't discourage you, but you should go into it knowing, it is an invasive procedure.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:02Josh Clark?

  They have to collect evidence from everywhere that the guy who did this to you, or the person who did this to you was.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:10Josh Clark?

  And they're also going to ask you, they're gonna take an oral history, and they're going to ask you. To basically recount the worst thing that's ever happened to you. Within 24 hours after it happened. And then they're going to go over all of the spots with things like swabs and tweezers and combs and things like that to collect this evidence and it's going to take a while. But you should expect to be treated very gently and with a tremendous amount of respect from the people who are going to administer this examination. And I would guess to a hospital, there will be counselors available there to be there with you if you don't have like a friend or a family member there with you or anything.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, in rural areas are where they're, they still need to do a lot of catch up work in hospitals and things like that. But if you're in any major city, there will almost 100% chance that you'll have what's called a sexual assault nurse examiner on staff. This is a nurse who has received extra training on how to administer this exam.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Like we said before, like any nurse can do this and do a great job. But if you have a S A N E, a sane trained person on staff, then that's who you'll be seeing. And you know, like I said, in rural areas, they're just, it's just tough to staff up for, for things like this. So they're still doing all they can to get grant money and stuff like that to get these people trained up.

• 27:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's just a question of extra funding because if you give a hospital funding that's set aside for sane nurses, you just created a new position in a hospital that wasn't there before.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  You've given the nursing staff there an incentive to go further their education, invest in their education so that they can have this better job.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:51Josh Clark?

  In the same hospital and help people as well. So it's really just a question of, of funding.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  That's it, you know?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  I mean, a lot of this stuff sadly is a question of funding.

• 28:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, luckily there is enough agitation at the bottom up.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:06Josh Clark?

  That, that like the, the, the pocketbooks have kind of loosened up over recent years.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  It is, it is something that, that hasn't been, it's been as a result of agitation and bad press rather than, you know, this is the right thing to do.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Consent is a big part of the entire procedure. They're gonna ask you basically before everything like, hey, I have a speculum here. We need to do a vaginal exam. Is that okay with you? And you can say no to any and all of this stuff. This is all up to you.

• 28:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  On how you want to proceed with this.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  And they're gonna ask for your consent for the whole procedure first. And then step by step, before each step, they're going to ask for your consent as well. And they're gonna explain what's coming up, like you said.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and as far as the interview portion, this is really important stuff as far as what will eventually wind up with investigators. And the questions about like, were you on drugs or had you been drinking? Like, this isn't to set you up for future, you know, grilling by a prosecutor.

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Necessarily, but like if you, you may have been drugged or you may have had a drink spiked or something like that.

• 29:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  So all of this is like just super, super important.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  So they need to know, they need to say, hey, future lab tech, test for roof and all.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  Or something like that, whatever. If that, if you were in a bar and you suddenly woke up on the side of the road.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  That's the kind of history they're taking for you for those reasons, not, not, you know, what were you doing in a bar by yourself?

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  That's not what this is. Again, this is not a detective asking you or performing this exam. They might not even be aware of your case yet.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:54Josh Clark?

  This is a trained nurse, or at the very least, a registered nurse, who is performing this with, one would expect, a tremendous amount of like compassion and respectfulness.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You're gonna be giving blood and urine samples. This is super important to provide a DNA baseline. They will pluck hairs from your scalp. They will swab your mouth. They will use a comb to collect pubic hair. There will be, you know, we already mentioned a genital exam, whether it's vaginal or anal. They really, like you said, they just. They have to go over with a sort of a fine tooth comb everywhere where the assault happened.

• 30:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so they're gonna ask you awful questions like where you penetrated anally, was an object used, did the perpetrator lick you or kiss you or anything like that?

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  And depending on these questions, they're going to investigate further. But they're going to, they're going to follow certain steps that no matter what. But then if you say, yes, the guy licked my face on like my left cheek.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  There's gonna be a swab on your left cheek that they otherwise may not have included in the normal steps.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and again, this is like, I mean, I can't imagine having to relive something like this and there are.

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  Right, within like 24 hours, ideally 24 hours after it happened. Like the worst thing that happened to you in your life, let's talk about it. Here, point to where it happened.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:25Josh Clark?

  You know, from a stranger.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Well, and there are plenty of interviews that, that we both read where, you know, women said it was, it was reliving it. And I felt like I was being, even with a great caregiver, like I was being assaulted all over again. Uh, it's just so important to try and, try and do if you can, if you can get there.

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  If you can't, there's no blame, there's no judgment. Like it's, that's a, that's a normal reaction. This is a lot to ask from somebody, but this is what it takes to, to collect the evidence and preserve it in a way that you can catch the person who did this.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're gonna test for, uh, well, it's not required actually to test for STDs. But they will ask you about STDs. Uh, I would imagine, uh, ask if you want to be tested.

• 32:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Uh, they will offer, um, emergency contraception as well. And you're not going to be charged for that procedure or the kit.

• 32:20Josh Clark?

  Here's the thing, go on.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Or you shouldn't be.

• 32:23Josh Clark?

  No, you won't be, not for the, not for the, the, the administration of the kit.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  Which is, that's great, that's substantial. I mean, it's a $16 kit, but this is also four or five hours of an ER nurse's, potentially a highly trained ER nurse's time. So it's great they're not charging you. But what's, what's a shame, what's shameful, I should say, is that. You will still be charged for any treatment of injuries. Say like you, you were hit and you need to be treated with like stitches or whatever. You'll get a bill for stitches. If you say, yes, I do want antiviral drugs because I'm afraid of having contracted an STD. Or I do want emergency contraception. They'll say, here's your prescription and the pharmacist will charge you for that.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:07Josh Clark?

  That's not okay. As a society, we should not ask rape and sexual assault victims to pay for their own medical treatment.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:16Josh Clark?

  Directly coming from a rape or a sexual assault. We should bear that burden ourselves and then it should give us that even slighter additional incentive to go get the guy who did it.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:28Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean?

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  We should, nobody should pay a cent. And then even worse than that, and I'm sorry, I realize I'm standing on a pretty big soapbox right now. But worse than that Chuck, prior to the Affordable Care Act, you could not, you, you, it was possible that you would be denied future healthcare coverage, insurance. If you were the victim of a sexual assault or rape who went to go get treatment.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  Because they treated it as a pre-existing condition.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 33:58Josh Clark?

  A pre-existing condition was rape. Can you believe that?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Sadly, I can.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  All right, step down.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  They're gonna take this kit, they're gonna seal everything up, they're gonna store it. Everything is like, you know, all the clothing and everything and all the swabs are dried out and labeled. And then it's sealed back in that original box as part of the, I guess, the genius of this kit was that everything that comes out of it goes right back in and it is also the storage device.

• 34:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Where it's, you know, labeled and then. It's all shipped to local law enforcement and then it's stored, quite possibly till the end of time, sadly.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Or destroyed. We'll get to both of those things.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  And ideally, and under just about any procedure, every single person who takes custody of that is supposed to sign the label on the outside of the box. So there's a clear chain of custody. It goes from the ER nurse to the cops, to the prosecutors, to the lab, to the prosecutors, and so on. But there's supposed to be a clear chain of custody so that there's no questions about whether it was tampered with or anything.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  I always, that's the one thing that weirds me out about any kind of blood sample I'm ever asked to give, or any kind of procedure I'm ever tested for, is when I see them take my blood, or whatever specimen, and they're writing on the little thing.

• 35:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  And it leaves the room. I don't know why, my first thought is always like, well, they're gonna mix that up with somebody.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Which is not true. But I'm always just like, alright, well, it's out of my vision, so.

• 35:38Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  I don't trust it.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  I don't know what that is.

• 35:41Josh Clark?

  It probably stems from having been switched at birth in the hospital. That's the only explanation.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Alright, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back and talk after this about the horrific problem of rape kit backlog and destruction, right after this.

• 36:10Josh Clark?

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• 36:48Speaker 02

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• 37:13Speaker 02

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• 37:24Josh Clark?

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• 37:47Josh Clark?

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• 37:59Speaker 02

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• 38:15Josh Clark?

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• 38:39Speaker 02

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• 38:52Josh Clark?

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• 39:21Speaker 02

  All right, so we told you the history of the kit, how it works, your ideal scenario for what you should do if you're ever a victim. And the great ending to this story would be is, and then those kits go off and they all get tested.

• 39:39Josh Clark?

  100% conviction rate.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  And they have great conviction rates.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And

• 39:44Josh Clark?

  There's no more rape. So long rape.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Sadly, that is not the case. And this is all over the news for years now, as it should be. But, well, first of all, this is what happens in the ideal scenario. They do store this. It is tested in a DNA lab.

• 40:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  And then it's checked against the CODIS, the C-O-D-I-S, the Combined DNA Index System. That's the database from the FBI of DNA profiles of bad people. And if a hit comes up, then you have a pretty good chance then of finding this person.

• 40:20Josh Clark?

  The other thing about CODIS is this, when you submit a sample, a DNA sample to CODIS from a crime like a sexual assault, and there's not a hit, that sample, you know, you just go, okay, sorry, CODIS, can I have my sample back? Like, that sample stays there.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:34Josh Clark?

  And so future detectives, say they have a suspect or somebody who comes in.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:38Josh Clark?

  And as a matter of routine, they run the suspect's DNA, which I think, like, just a matter of course now, when you're charged with a crime, they swab your cheek and then run it through CODIS. That DNA may be hit.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:50Josh Clark?

  And all of a sudden, this thing, like, you got caught robbing somebody's house, but now you're up for a rape charge from two years ago.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:55Josh Clark?

  Because your DNA was entered through this rape kit. So even if you don't get a hit, that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a conviction. It's not like the rape kit was all for naught.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:05Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  For sure. Sadly, that's not the way it always works. In the 2000s, there started to be some, there were some reporters digging around, found a story, and found out that there are tens of thousands of rape kits all over the country sitting in warehouses and sitting on shelves for years and years and years, untested.

• 41:28Josh Clark?

  It was so bad, Chuck, that it became known as "The Backlog."

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:33Josh Clark?

  Like, some dating back to the 90s, where they just, like you said, sitting in warehouses, untested. And at first When I think some reporters started digging this up and found out like, whoa, this is not okay. How widespread is this? And started looking around and found it's like everywhere. And some towns are worse than others. Like Akron, Ohio had something like 3,000, I think.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  2,000 kits in Akron, Ohio alone.

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  So Detroit had, sorry Akron, I didn't mean to put more on you than you had. I was confusing you with Phoenix. Phoenix had 3,000 kits.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  Dallas had 4,000. Memphis has 12,000.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  And in Detroit, a few years back, somebody wandered into a police storage facility and was like, oh, there's 11,000 untested rape kits that have just been, that we just forgot we had. Here's the problem with that. There's a couple of problems with it. But the first one, Chuck, is that every single one of those kits represents a person who found the wherewithal to

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:34Josh Clark?

  drag himself or herself to the ER and go through this hours-long procedure and suffer a second violation, basically is what it feels like.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:47Josh Clark?

  In order to give the cops the evidence that they need. And the cops didn't even bother to send it to the lab.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  That is a third violation.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the other problem is that this could be like while they're sitting in there. And this often sadly is the case is that these people commit more sexual assaults.

• 43:09Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  When they could be behind bars.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. In Detroit, so there was 11,000 untested kits they found.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:17Josh Clark?

  Let's say that each one was a different perpetrator.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  The recidivism, that's a bonehead word. The recidivism rate, they think, for sexual offenders of sexual assault is between 5 and 32% over a 15-year period.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:34Josh Clark?

  So if those kits sat there untested for 15 years.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:37Josh Clark?

  That means that an additional 550 to 3,520 rapes were carried out by the same people whose DNA was in those kits, untested.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 43:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So that's unacceptable, right? And as a result, Congress was like, here's $150 million to get rid of this backlog.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  That should solve it.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  It did. It helped a lot, right? It got the labs going and everything like that.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Still not enough.

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  Right. The problem is, is it funded labs. That's what everybody said was, well, the labs are overworked. What are you gonna do? So they got more technicians, they got more labs, and the backlog got worked through in a lot of cases. In Detroit in particular, the prosecutor, or one of the prosecutors there named Kim Worthy, who's another hashtag hero of this story, has been like, this number is going down. We're going through those kits and it's systematically and methodically.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  That's what it takes. It takes someone or a body of people, like, not just like throwing money at something, but like specifically following up on the ground.

• 44:38Josh Clark?

  Right. Okay. So the funding went toward the labs, but that left another half of this formula, which is a big one, the cops. So this backlog got moved through the labs, but that doesn't mean that the cops followed up on the results. And including cases where there were hits in CODIS. Later, later research by reporters found that like, a lot of these cases in the backlog that got worked through hadn't been followed up on. Which is another problem.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, there have been some federal guidelines laid down since then, specifically the Safer Act of 2013 Sexual Assault Forensic Evidence Reporting. Different states have new laws in place. Like in New York State, it is law now that requires kits to be sent in within 10 days of collection and tested by the lab within three months. And they set up a timeline for processing backlog kits. But it's, you know, it still depends on what city you live in and what state you live in, because it still happens. It still happens a lot. It says here, in 2011, a report from the National Institute of Justice,

• 45:47Speaker 02

  18% of all unsolved rapes between 2002 and 2007 involved this kind of evidence that had never been processed. 18%.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  Yep. And so, in the cops' defense here, they're, they're, they're basically saying, most of them are saying, "Okay, so great, that was great. You guys funded the lab, we're still overworked and understaffed."

• 46:11Speaker 02

  And out of room.

• 46:12Josh Clark?

  Out of room.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Literally to store these kits.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  So here is another thing, right? So the, all this stuff went, all this focus went on the backlog. As a matter of fact, the third hashtag hero from this story is Mariska Hargitay.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 46:23Josh Clark?

  From Law and Order SVU.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:25Josh Clark?

  Just from doing Law and Order SVU, her eyes were so open to this whole backlog problem, that she started a foundation called the Joyful Heart Foundation, that is basically dedicated to getting rid of the rape kit backlog.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, actually, that's a larger foundation, but within that is inthebacklog.org. And here's what you can do, everyone, since it is National Awareness Month.

• 46:48Josh Clark?

  First, put on something teal.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Put on something teal, on April 2nd. Go to inthebacklog.org and click on "Take Action", and there are a number of things you can do, but at the bottom, there's a donation button. And donate. I set up a monthly today.

• 47:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  That as far as I'm concerned, I'll donate monthly till the day I die.

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Which hopefully is a long time.

• 47:07Josh Clark?

  Long, long time. #LongTime.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but just go to inthebacklog.org. If you don't have money to give, there are other things you can do under the "Take Action" banner.

• 47:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 47:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, um, the, back in 2016, while everybody was talking about the backlog, worrying about the backlog, doing something about the backlog,

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  the Fayetteville, North Carolina Chief of Police held a press conference and said, "Hey, um, the city attorneys told me not to do this, but I feel morally, a moral responsibility to tell the public this, but we destroyed about 300 untested rape kits."

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  Uh, in cases where the statute of limitations hadn't run out.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, this isn't sitting on a shelf, this isn't untested.

• 47:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  This is, "We threw them away."

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  They were incinerated. The evidence is gone forever, and it was never sent off to a lab, and the statute of limitations was, was not up in. In these cases.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:08Josh Clark?

  And that was huge. That was a big, a big deal. And he, he committed his town, his police department to going through all those cases, contacting the victims and seeing if they could still build a case for all of them. They made it a priority. But it opened Pandora's box around the country. And CNN got a speculum of their own and started crawling around law enforcement agencies all over the country and saying, hey, have you guys ever done that? Have you ever destroyed rape kits? What's your policy for that?

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:39Josh Clark?

  When's the last time you did it? Were any of them still within the statute of limitations? And they found out that it happens a lot, actually.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:47Josh Clark?

  Like a lot. Police, to make, to make room in evidence rooms, they will destroy rape kits. Some of them have official policies in place. Some of them is just a detective deciding that the case isn't going anywhere and will say, yeah, you can destroy that rape kit.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's a misunderstanding of what the statute of limitations is.

• 49:09Josh Clark?

  Yes. But these kits have never gone on, have never gone, have never been tested and never will be tested. That evidence is gone forever.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:19Josh Clark?

  And that is even worse than the backlog everyone has concluded, and I think rightfully so.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, this, and like you mentioned earlier, just having this stuff entered into CODIS is huge because let's say you do nab someone and it turns out that they, it comes up with like six hits from sexual assaults over the years. Like, I mean, prison sentences aside, the, the value that that has for a victim to know that that person was caught and is finally going to pay for their crime.

• 49:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Is, can't be measured, you know?

• 49:50Josh Clark?

  Right. And also, like, if you go through this procedure and you, you still don't get a hit in CODIS, but that DNA evidence is in CODIS, this, if this perpetrator gets caught down the line, you've contributed to a much stronger conviction against them and probably a bigger sentence because you've helped establish a pattern of criminal behavior.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  And in fact, that's how they call the Golden State Killer, I believe, is from this backlog of rape kits being put through and that guy popped up. I think they got him for like 12 or 13 rapes.

• 50:24Josh Clark?

  During his serial killer career.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 50:26Josh Clark?

  Through this backlog being moved through. And that opportunity is lost if you just destroy this evidence untested. Secondly, it also gives, it ruins any opportunity for a wrongfully convicted person.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  Who was convicted previously before DNA evidence was used.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's happened a lot.

• 50:46Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  If you destroy this evidence, it may, it removes that possibility as well. So I think the Justice Department issued some guidelines that say you should hold rape kit evidence for a minimum of 50 years or the statute of limitations, whichever comes first. And then that's that. And everybody said, that's really great, but we really only legally have to listen to our state's guidelines, which are all over the place.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wonder if any kind of like penalty and accountability would help.

• 51:19Josh Clark?

  Well, I think CNN like crawling up everybody's butt is, is helping.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  For sure. I think it's, it's kind of opened some people's eyes. And that was the same thing that, that brought so much attention to the backlog. So hopefully the same attention will come to this too.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:31Josh Clark?

  And we can start funding police departments around the country to like carry the, carry out the legwork on this.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just have one more thing. If you just, and I imagine you could do this in any given week or day now, if you just type in rape kit and hit news on your search engine, many articles will come up like that day of, of cases like this. Just today, there was one Austin Police Department could potentially reopen dozens of rape investigations after getting the backlog, results from a backlog of 20, almost 2,700 untested kits. I believe they got a grant from New York. I'm not sure. How that happened, but they got like a million bucks from a grant from Manhattan to Austin, Texas.

• 52:21Josh Clark?

  They're like, we got a lot of money. You want some of it, Austin?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Maybe, but that allowed them to test like almost 2,700 kits. Another story, a Tucson man was convicted of raping seven women over a 12-year period after police received a grant to test rape kits. And it said, "In a change to mindset over which kits get tested." And then Orlando, Florida, a man is now in jail today. He fled the state and found him in Puerto Rico. And once again, this was a long unsolved rape case that they, you know, they finally cracked open that kit, tested it, and bam, this guy comes up.

• 52:58Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  And they got him in Puerto Rico.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  Yep. Still a territory, doofus.

• 53:04Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about rape kits, just do what Chuck said and search it on your favorite search engines news, okay?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, go to inthebacklog.org for sure.

• 53:14Josh Clark?

  Even better.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Just poke around there for a while.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  And put on something teal.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:18Josh Clark?

  And in the meantime, it's time for listener mail.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  I don't think I have anything teal.

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  You can borrow this sweatshirt.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  It's mint, but it's awfully close.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not good with my colors. Emily thinks I'm partially colorblind.

• 53:31Josh Clark?

  I think you might be too.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  I might be. So I'm going to call this ASMR. We've been getting a lot of follow-up on this.

• 53:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  From people that get that tingly feeling and people like me that throw up in their mouth a little bit.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Hey, guys. Been listening for a long time. I'm always intrigued by the topics. I'm a crafter and your show always keeps my mind moving so my creativity can flow in the background.

• 53:56Josh Clark?

  Nice. That's the ideal situation.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Crafting? Yeah. I seriously thought I was the only person who experienced ASMR. Friends I've talked to about it in the past think I'm crazy. No one around here knows anything about it. I love the feeling I get when I can activate the sensation. The best way I describe it is like, for me, getting goosebumps inside my skull. That's pretty good.

• 54:19Josh Clark?

  That's a great one.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  I wish I knew what that felt like.

• 54:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I do too.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  You know?

• 54:23Josh Clark?

  I envy that.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  I want the sensation.

• 54:24Josh Clark?

  I don't have it.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Uh, the first time I found something that triggered it, I was working in a small office in a basement of a hospital. Uh, it was getting repainted and the sound of the paint roller and the people near me in the office set it off. First, I thought it was strange, but I really enjoyed it as our office started to grow up again, wearing headphones on a regular basis and listened to the entire collection of Bob Ross painting. Which I famously, or not famously, but I go to sleep to that sometimes on Netflix.

• 54:52Josh Clark?

  So you're not, you don't have a problem with Bob Ross?

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I love it.

• 54:55Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Uh, very soothing to me. But I don't thi- I mean, I don't think he's ASMR, is he?

• 54:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Is he?

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's, uh, we didn't say that in the, uh, episode?

• 55:03Speaker 02

  I didn't think so.

• 55:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's like a legendary ASMR trigger. For some people. Legendary.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Uh, I listened to the entire collection and found the soft sound of his voice and stiff bristles on the canvas caused the same reaction. Helped me greatly with my anxiety and general stress in the office, actually. I even created a playlist of people painting and would listen to it when I was stuck in traffic. Uh, as I'm writing, I'm listening to your episode and yes, swallowing sounds can give me the tingles too. Bob Ross swallows a lot when he's painting.

• 55:34Josh Clark?

  Gulp?

• 55:35Speaker 02

  And his mic is on his collar.

• 55:37Josh Clark?

  I've never noticed that.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  What, the, uh, the swallowing?

• 55:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  No, you might have to have headphones on for that.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm so excited, guys. You have changed my life. Thanks so much. Uh, Goosebump-headed Candace, uh, Tali or Katali.

• 55:54Josh Clark?

  Is "uh" in there?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's a weird middle name. That might be her, uh, her surname.

• 55:59Josh Clark?

  I got you. Uh. May, uh.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Bearandmermaidart.com.

• 56:05Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  I'm gonna shout out your craft site. It's like jewelry and things.

• 56:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  It's not Bear and Mermaid Art that I could see.

• 56:12Josh Clark?

  I got you.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  It's just a whimsical name.

• 56:14Josh Clark?

  Got you.

• 56:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's like, it's something about painting like slows people down. Like when you're painting and you're talking, you're just that much calmer.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  No one paints fast.

• 56:24Josh Clark?

  There's this dude, like if, like some, some artists will paint, do Instagram Live and paint.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:31Josh Clark?

  And I don't know if you remember him or not, but Gregory Jacobson, he was the artist who came backstage at our Chicago show last time.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:38Josh Clark?

  Okay. He did this for years, for a year. He had like some show coming and he would just sit there and paint. And Yumi started watching him originally and then she got me into it. And it was just him painting.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 56:50Josh Clark?

  He wasn't even in the shot normally, just his hand painting, but he'd be talking about what he's doing and maybe answering some questions. And I never really thought about it before, but it is like super laid back.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:01Josh Clark?

  Something about painting makes you slow. Just slows you down.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Well, you know what you-

• 57:07Josh Clark?

  It makes you swallow loudly.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  You never hear from a painter, an artist that's like, I'm in a hurry. I gotta go knock this painting out real quick.

• 57:13Josh Clark?

  That's true. Let me put some, some-

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I'm under a deadline.

• 57:16Josh Clark?

  Lens players on there.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Or maybe, I don't know. I guess you could be under a deadline and-

• 57:20Josh Clark?

  He was under a deadline, if I remember correctly. He had some huge show coming up and I guess then he decided, well, I think I'll add this extra complication to this, to this crazy deadline. But yeah, it was interesting. Thanks a lot, Candace. Uh, nay, uh. If you want to get in touch with us, you can go to our website, stuffyoushouldknow.com, and you can send us a good old fashioned email to [email protected].

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 58:02Josh Clark?

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• 58:33Speaker 06

  Breathe in and reset with Lincoln Rejuvenate. An available multi-sensory feature in the 2027 Lincoln Navigator SUV. Experience the luxurious massage, visuals, and sense to help you relax in the driver's seat. It's your time for a reset. Visit Lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate unless the vehicle is in park. When the vehicle is off, or if any doors open, do not use the feature in a closed garage or in other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. Lincoln and Navigator are trademarks of Ford or its affiliates. All rights reserved.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.