Selects: The Tale of the Church of the SubGenius

The Church of the SubGenius is a religion, but really a parody of religion. Learn all about this group of weirdo outsiders in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Stuff You Should Know is brought to you by Granger. When you're a commercial property manager at a large scale office complex, the job's nonstop, keeping units ready, systems running, tenants happy.

• 0:45Josh Clark?

  Granger helps you stay ahead with access to about 1.5 million products from thousands of trusted suppliers. Granger delivers lighting fixtures, HVAC filters and more, so you can stay supplied while managing your inventory and budget needs more efficiently. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com or stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Hey everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's select, I've chosen our October 2021 episode on the Church of the Subgenius. It's a neat little romp through what started out as a couple of guys who liked pamphlets and turned a whole generation, well, some percentage of a whole generation into interesting

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  people skeptical of anything someone is trying to sell them on. As you can hear from this intro, it's kind of difficult to describe, so just enjoy listening to the episode.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there wandering around in circles and this is Stuff You Should Know, the podcast about the Church of the Subgenius at long last.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  When did you become acquainted with the Church of the Subgenius?

• 2:13Josh Clark?

  I had a group of friends that walked on the otter side of life, darker side of life, less, you know, less serious side of life, I'm not sure, in the 90s. And there was one guy who was big time into the Church of the Subgenius.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  That's how it happens, right?

• 2:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was my first introduction. Then I actually came across the hour of Slack on Georgia Tech Student Radio once, like in the early 2000s.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Rec. Radio.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  I never got into it, though. Are you actually like a secret subgenii?

• 2:50Speaker 02

  No, same as you. I had a friend in college, a very influential friend, actually, who turned me on to a lot of different things as I was just getting into college and exploring different ways of life and thought patterns and...

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  And sherm sticks?

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, my buddy Jason, he turned me on to a lot of things in life and I've been able to tell him so, which is always a nice thing. And Bob Dobbs in the Church of the Subgenius was one of them.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. And like, you might not be utterly familiar with the Church of the Subgenius, but I'll bet there's a pretty good chance that a lot of Stuff You Should Know listeners are at least familiar with it without even being fully aware of what it is. But there's a very, very famous picture of a clean-cut, mid-century, middle-aged dude with a pipe clenched in his teeth and almost like a... Patrick Bateman psychotic look on his face.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Patrick Bateman meets Ward Cleaver.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Yes, Chuck. I don't think anyone's ever put it better than that. And that is J.R. Bob Dobbs, who is the high prophet of the Church of the Subgenius. And he has popped up everywhere, from the background at Pee-wee's Playhouse. There was a Sublime record that had him on there. Like, he shows up all over the place. It's almost like code. And so you probably have seen it, even if you're not familiar with the Church of the Subgenius. That's called the Dobbs Head.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Right. Gathered from clip art, which we will see. It's kind of one of the fun end jokes about a pseudo-religion, a satire and parody of religion. And it's, you know, it was formed by two guys. We'll get into the history, but I have a sort of a favorite definition, and I know you do. And maybe we'll just read both of them.

• 4:49Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Mine comes from Steve Davis of the Austin Chronicle. And he said this, "In the late 70s, the Church of the Subgenius was intended as a dogmatic antidote to a reemergent mediocrity, embracing an aesthetic inconfluence with evolving new wave sensibilities and tropes in music, film, and pop culture. It was an end joke with a half-serious punchline."

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  Very nice. That was great.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  And what you, yours was from Ed the Grabster himself. He kind of put it nicely, didn't he?

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, also from the Austin Chronicle. Yeah, so Ed said that it's, that the best way to explain the church is, it is a joke, but to get the joke, you have to see that it isn't really a joke at all, but is actually getting at harrowing truths about the world.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Not bad, Ed.

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  Not bad. So the whole thing of-

• 5:41Speaker 02

  I think it scared Ed a little bit.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  I think so too. It's hilarious and cute. But the whole thing is that it is a parody of a religion, a parody of a cult, a UFO sex cult, if you want to get technical. It's a, it's an absurdist in-joke. And the whole thing is one big in-joke made up of like millions of tiny little in-jokes that anybody in the church can kind of generate and create. But it's all kind of hung on the skeleton of this, um, this doctrine of the prophet Bob Dobbs, who is this, the world's greatest salesman, um, who is basically carrying out the will

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  of an alien god who may or may not love us, or the subgenie, as they're called in plural. And it, like, either it sucks you in immediately and you're like, I want to know more about this because this is hilarious, or it repulses you because it is making fun of everything that you hold dear. There's not a lot of middle ground, although I would count myself as somebody in the middle ground, to tell you the truth.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  That was so awesome, Chuck. Nicely done.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, what I just did there, and you'll see this a lot if you watch the documentary, if you see any YouTube footage of, uh, people from the sub genius church hanging out at one of their, uh, devivals, they don't call them revivals, they call them devivals. Uh, they will do this thing where they kind of, uh, juggle their throat with their hand as they sort of do this weird chant.

• 7:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  And I didn't find much information on that specifically, but I did see them doing it all over the place.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  Well, it is a huge, huge rabbit hole. And as we'll see, like, some people accidentally take it seriously. And that's not the right thing to do at all. That is, that is a, um, that is a mentally unsound thing to do. That's not what the intention is or anything like that. The intention is, is to basically point out how just warped our consumer culture is. And it made a lot more sense in the eighties before our culture ended up becoming the parody that the Church of the Subgenius was, was carrying out.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it had, it had a very Mad Magazine vibe. You know, something I know that you and I both grew up loving and cherishing. And I could see like, you know, if that's something as mainstream as you want to liken it to, to help people understand, it's almost as if Mad Magazine started a religion and Alfred E. Newman was the god. And it was all just one big joke about consumer culture. And then if people end up taking it seriously, you can really see why like that would be a very strange thing.

• 8:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Of course Alfred E. Newman is not god. And of course Bob Dobbs is not god.

• 8:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Or the prophet. But these two guys founded this, this kind of funny joke religion in the late 1970s because they were like-minded dudes. And what started as a joke grew into a, I guess, a mini phenomenon?

• 8:47Josh Clark?

  I don't know, man. I think it's-

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Or major phenomenon.

• 8:52Josh Clark?

  I would say major as far as cult classic or cult phenomenon go. And also, we should also, I think we should preface all this, if it's not too late, to all of the Church of the Subgenius members out there, past and present and future. This is one of those things where like, if you explain what makes something funny-

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  It is like, that's the least funny thing you can do. So if we traipse into that just by virtue of explaining things, we're sorry.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  I know. Cause it is a fun, kind of cool thing that was created for people that felt like they were on the outside of things.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Precisely, yes.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  For, for outcasts and weirdos who didn't fit in necessarily, they found common ground before the internet-

• 9:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  -by writing letters back and forth to each other. They kind of had the internet through pen and paper in these devivals. And we have Douglas St. Clair Smith and Steve Wilcox to thank for this.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the original outsider weirdos.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  That's right. You may not know him by that name. If you're familiar with the Church of the Subgenius, you know them as Ivan Stang and Philo Drummond.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  And these were two guys, like I said, who were, they were in Texas. I think Philo grew up in a religious family, but, and had a really good childhood. It wasn't some stifling situation. But he was always sort of, didn't quite fit in and felt like the outsider at school and was seeking outsider culture. And whereas Stang was, I think he described himself in the documentary as secular humanist scientist in his upbringing, super liberal family, whereas, I keep wanting to call him Wilcox. Whereas Philo's was more conservative, to be sure. But they found common ground when a friend introduced them.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  They said, "You both love comic books. You both love Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart. Get together and you might have a new friend." And they were immediate friends.

• 10:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, they definitely hit it off. In part also because they both kind of just felt like they didn't really fit into Dallas, Texas at the time.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  That helps.

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  One of the other things they really had in common was a love of earnest, bona fide extremist pamphlets.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Right, they're fun.

• 11:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, whether it's extremist religious groups, extremist like, you know, like white supremacist groups, which I'm sure Dallas, Texas in the seventies had quite a bit of. Like anybody who was just kind of off the rails and was trying to recruit other people to be off the rails with them and made a pamphlet about that. These guys would collect it and relish it. And that also included, remember the Jack Shick tracks in the Satanic Panic episode? They were huge into that. It had a huge influence on them as well. Those comic strips about how somebody, you know, had sex before marriage and now they were burning in hell kind of stuff.

• 11:56Josh Clark?

  Like, they took all these things together and they kind of used them as the basis for this outlook on the world, which is, humans are totally nuts in a lot of ways. And then even more than that, they can be dangerously nuts when they try to foist or impose their own crazy thoughts onto you and make you behave a certain way because of their crazy thoughts. That that's the danger that comes out of modern life. And I think that's one of the things that really stuck out to them and the thing that drove them to kind of, kind of try to fight that however they could.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have to say, I see the appeal of what they did because if you remember a few years ago, God, this is quite a few years ago now, our buddy Joe Randazzo and I wrote a TV pilot together about a Scientology-esque religion, and it never went anywhere. We even had a few pitch meetings and nothing happened with it. But in writing that script, we had to create our own religion for that pilot. And you can't just say, well, let's just call it this and it's whatever. Like, you have to really kind of explore the tenets of it and make it a real thing. And we did that. And I made a pamphlet, Joe and I made it together, and I kind of put it together. And we brought the pamphlet to the pitch

• 13:16Speaker 02

  meetings and it, I'll send you one sometime. It's really funny. Our religion was called Binarism, and it was like numbers, this numbers-based kind of Scientology thing. But it was so much fun. And all I could think about when these two guys got together in 1979 and hatched this idea was, yeah, it's a lot of fun to create a phony religion, even for a screenplay.

• 13:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And they were definitely inspired by L. Ron Hubbard and his success at basically founding Scientology based on some science fiction ideas that he had and then becoming rich. There's a famous quote attributed to L. Ron Hubbard that you can't get rich writing science fiction, but you can get rich by writing or by founding your own religion. And so, so we should be really careful here. They weren't inspired by L. Ron Hubbard in the sense like they wanted to take advantage of people. I think they were more fascinated by the fact that there are plenty of people out there who will buy into this. And I think they kind of wanted to explore that. Not, not in any kind of like, it's weird. It's

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  the whole thing is kind of a cynical, it comes from a cynical place where you just have to be cynical to be, to be critical enough of society to see it for what it is. But it's also like a very humanist. Group as well, where like they're not trying to hurt you, they're not trying to exploit you. They definitely come off as superior a lot of times, especially if you're not in on the joke, because that makes you by definition, part of the butt of the joke.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Right, make you a normie.

• 14:55Josh Clark?

  Yes, but for the most part, they're not, they're not like a group of people who like hate or despise other people. I think they're fascinated by the fact that that kind of stuff exists. And they're also fascinated by just how conformist the average person is without even thinking about it. So they were fascinated, I guess is the way to put it, by L. Ron Hubbard and his success with Scientology. And there was another quote that was attributed to Stang. I don't know if it was in the documentary that came out recently or not, but he basically said, if we figured that if Jim Jones can get 900 people to kill themselves, we could get 900 people to send us a dollar. And they kind of wanted to toy around with that and see, you know, if that was the case.

• 15:38Josh Clark?

  Not to exploit people, but just to kind of see, I think, if there was anybody else out there. They were kind of shouting into the wilderness and the way that you told them that you were out there was to mail in a dollar and say, give, send me your pamphlet.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and here's the deal, Stang, it looks like by all accounts has generally made his living doing this over the year.

• 15:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it worked.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  He's, he's not gotten rich. It's not a Scientology thing where it's like, and send me a hundred more dollars and we'll give you another thing. It's really just sort of, mail us some money and we'll send you our comedy goods in the mail.

• 16:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  And he still stuffs envelopes and he still sends pamphlets and CDs and literature today. It's like, you know, it's like paying for a Mad Magazine or something, but it's just done from this guy's house.

• 16:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I also get the impression that the, far and away, the vast majority of the people who understand the Church of Subgenius for what it is, when they send money and they're sending it out of like gratitude for what Stang and Philo have built together.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 16:40Josh Clark?

  That's, that's what it is. They're, they're not being duped in any way. They're in on the joke. They're just showing their support by shoveling money toward those guys.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  All right. I think that is a great preamble. You're either turning off your Hi-Fi system now.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Or you're intrigued by what's to come. And we'll talk about the night it all hatched right after this.

• 17:24Josh Clark?

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• 18:27Josh Clark?

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• 20:47Speaker 02

  All right, so these guys are hanging out. It's 1979. They didn't have, I think Filo was the one who always had a pretty decent job. He kind of had an okay career and he always wanted to, there were times where he kind of dropped in and out of his involvement because he did have a decent career, but he always supported it. Whereas Stang was all in from the beginning and didn't have a ton of prospects for work. But they were hanging out and they were like, kind of wondering why they, you know, didn't have more and why they weren't as successful as they thought they should be. And Stang said, you know, we aren't geniuses, you know, we must be sub geniuses. And he says in the documentary, he was like, that's the moment, it was literally like a lightning bolt out of the sky.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  That hatched this idea, so they kind of took all their interest in all these weird pamphlets and weird UFO cults and pseudo religions and new age beliefs. And they made the original pamphlet, spent $60 on this original pamphlet and were just leaving him at dry cleaners and stuff like that until Stang's wife got mad and she was like, that's a lot of money for us. At least send this to some publishers and see if you can do something with this. So they sent it to every publisher under the sun and got rejected by every publisher under the sun. But it's pretty funny that later they did end up having a fairly successful book, but early on book publishers didn't know what to do with these guys.

• 22:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you can understand why if you've ever seen what's called pamphlet number one now, which is part of the church doctrine. This is like the sacred writings. The idea is that Ivan Stang is the sacred scribe who took down the words of Bob Dobbs. And by the way, Bob Dobbs, the Bob is always in quotes, not just when you say JR Bob Dobbs. Like even if you say Bob Dobbs or even just Bob, it's always in quotes. That's how you write his name. And that Bob was getting his divine inspiration from Jehovah One, that alien overlord that runs earth. And this was kind of like the conceit of the pamphlet.

• 22:59Josh Clark?

  And the front of the pamphlet said things like, "The world ends tomorrow and you may die," in all caps. It asked, "Do people think you're strange? Do you?" I know, I love that one. There was another one that said, "Eternal salvation or triple your money back." So like, these are the things on, like, on and in the pamphlet. And they're going around to publishers being like, "Hey, you want to, you want to give us some money for this?" So of course, everybody said no. The most astounding thing is that eventually somebody actually said yes, I think McGraw-Hill.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was much later when they finally did get their book published, after they had quite a following and the sort of writing was on the wall with these, you know, fairly successful gatherings and live shows. But, um, yeah, the book came later. Early on, they got together and started, just as buddies, getting on the CB radio and doing, and this, again, this was like, you would get on the internet today, back then it was the CB. And they would do these sort of parody voices. It basically hatched what was the beginnings of what would end up being the Hour of Slack radio show, which is 90 minutes long, part of the joke. And people started hollering back at them. He said they were trolls before they were trolls.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  You were kind of trolling people on the CB.

• 24:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  And then other people would troll back and call them, uh, pinks. And that's where the notion of pinks or pink boys came up. And pink boys, uh, they kind of flipped it. Uh, in the Church of the Subgenius, pink boys are the others. They're the squares. They're the ones who just follow along and go to their nine to five job and spend their consumer money in, you know, uh, and on catalog items. And, uh, anyone else outside is a pink or a pink boy.

• 24:49Josh Clark?

  Yes, but, but there's a distinction between, uh, say, people like you and I and actual dyed-in-the-wool pink boys. The kind, like, middle manager types who are like, not only fully bought into the, the con, the great con that's going on, they actually like, like, almost violently defend it in its existence and its, its rightness. Those are, those are pinks. They're irreparable. There's nothing that's ever gonna help them. And they're genuine humans. Now, there are plenty of subgenii out there who don't know they're subgenii. They haven't been exposed to the Church. They've never seen a Dobbs head, maybe. Whatever reason, they're, they're not aware that they're a subgenius yet.

• 25:31Josh Clark?

  And if you're a true subgenius, then you have yeti blood coursing through your veins.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  Now, if you're an actual subgenius, that means that you are a, uh, of yeti heritage, uh, who is, who has basically become aware of the teachings of Bob and are now actively, um, working against the conspiracy and exploiting pink boys anytime you get a chance. Because again, they're, they're hopeless. They're, they're never going to be converted because they, they don't have any yeti blood in them.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Right. And to reiterate, I don't know if I kind of just tossed it off earlier, but

• 26:06Josh Clark?

  You tossed it off.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Bob Dobbs is a piece of clip art, literally that face that you see was a piece of clip art from clip art catalog and they loved clip art because it was free.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  And a lot of their early stuff was just collage from clip art that they had found. And this was from a clip art catalog and now it's, you know, one of, you know, arguably one of the most famous pieces of clip art there is.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I don't know if it was a joke. It's so hard to tell what's a joke and what's not because they play everything so straight.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're in character, basically.

• 26:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But I saw on one of their websites, they said, reminder, this is a, this is, this is a trademarked piece of art now as part of like the subgenius or copyright subgenius. So I don't know if they actually did copyright it. I could totally see them doing that in real life. Or if they were just joking about it. Either way, yeah, it's kind of great.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  So I think we probably can't go any further without explaining this concept of slack.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  I mentioned that the radio show is called The Hour of Slack and kind of the major, I guess, philosophy and tenet of their religion is, is this concept of slack.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  Are you having trouble describing it?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  No, I mean, they, they even say in the documentary, it is not even to be described, that they can't even describe it. So whatever we do is going to be our own attempt.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Slack is different for every person, but the definite idea is what you think, which is being slack, like kind of, but not just being lazy, having everything you need in life and being content while giving up as little as possible exertion wise.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exertion wise, exactly. Like, like having done as little as possible to actually attain it. That's one definition of slack for sure. The point is, like, I think it's one of those things where you

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  Or what is not slack is easier to recognize than what is slack. And I'll give you an example of something that happened today.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, because I've been thinking about this. I'm like, how are we going to define slack?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  So I knocked over the toilet brush behind the toilet in my bathroom, right?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  And you know, like the little drippings that end up in like the toilet brush holder?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:30Josh Clark?

  They spilled out on the floor.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are the worst drippings.

• 28:33Josh Clark?

  The worst drippings. I would have rather spilled like, like, like raw pork juice onto my floor than those drippings. They're bad drippings, right?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Bad drippings.

• 28:42Josh Clark?

  So I spent the next 10 minutes not only like cleaning up those drippings, and I mean like cleaning it up, like there's, there's some floor missing now. I scrubbed it so hard. And then also cleaning the holder for the scrub brush before I put everything back. And this is a totally unintentional, totally avoidable thing for me to be doing. That took up 10 minutes of my life. I did not want to be doing it. It was gross. It was yuck. And I realized this is the, this is the perfect example of what is not slack.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  It's the conspiracy.

• 29:12Josh Clark?

  It was the conspiracy that probably had something to do with it. But the, the point was is like, I was doing something I didn't want to do. And I was doing it, I was getting no reward from it whatsoever. I was a little stressed out about it. It was not slack. So slack is the opposite of that. It's where things are going your way. It's where you are content and happy. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have everything in life, like all the trappings of life. It very frequently doesn't mean that. Instead, it's just whatever it is that makes you content. And because it's undefinable, that means that it's up to every subgenii to define what is slack for them.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the conspiracy is are the things that prevent you from achieving slack. Originally, I think the conspiracy was literally like the man, that kind of thing. But it evolved over the years to the point where one of the guys in the documentary said it evolved to, you know, it was like when it rained really hard on a day you were gonna do something like that's the conspiracy.

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  I got you.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  It's things I think conspiring against you. That toilet brush knocking over, that's definitely the conspiracy.

• 30:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Uh, because it prevented you from, I guess, taking your your mid morning nap.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  Right, and the, under the teachings of of Bob, the conspiracy is actually an acronym for cliques of normals secretly planning insidious rituals aimed at controlling you.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Ooh, that's a good, that's a good one.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Agreed, and then under the doctrine, like this is an actual group who they don't know what slack is, but they know it exists. And they're bent on stealing as much of it as possible, and they start stealing it from everybody, pinks and yeti, from the moment you're born. Um, and so it's up to you to um, to steal it back, to get as much slack as you possibly can. But the problem with the conspiracy is they're the ones running the show here on earth. They're the ones who are behind consumer culture, um, and they've created this illusion that that what what normals and pinks um, and uh,

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  non-subgenia yeti who haven't figured themselves out yet, um, buy into as life is all just this vast consumer conspiracy. And that uh, they'll, they actually offer what appears to be slack, but it's like

• 31:38Speaker 02

  False slack.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  False slack is what they call it. Yeah, it's manufactured slack. So it's like, um, the subgenius wiki is awesome, and they give examples of um, like pre-planned recreation. Like days off from work that you earn or are given, like these are, this is all false slack. Like it's somebody else deciding what your slack is and you buying into it. And that is the, that is not slack. Slack is you have to decide what slack is.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Right, and there is original slack. We're all born with original slack, according to the church. And the conspiracy chips away at that slack or sells you false slack over the years to degrade your your natural slack that you're born with.

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  And then there's also involuntary slack, which is my favorite slack. And this is like, if you, if you lose your job or something, if you get fired, this is just involuntary slack that Bob is sending your way to force you to take a little time off.

• 32:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw a video from, I guess, 2009 or 10, and it called the Great Recession, the Great Slack Session. And it basically said like, the, the financial markets have melted down. And it had like this real dramatic music of millions of people are out of, out of work. No one has a clue about what to do about it. Victory is at hand.

• 33:07Josh Clark?

  There's one other thing I want to say about Slack too. There are basically two groups, two approaches or philosophies as far as Slack is concerned. And I think it's pretty interesting that like the, the whole concept has gotten this far. It's evolved into something. And I think this is a really good example of what happens with the church's teachings. Like, these guys just wrote some crazy stuff, like back in the like 70s, 80s, even into the 90s. And then other people who kind of vibed on it came along and expanded it. Like, I read, I read an essay on the, the scissors of sight. And apparently that's mentioned offhandedly in pamphlet number one. And somebody wrote a whole essay about how they're still trying to figure out what those are. And they think it's from a crystal in Atlantis.

• 33:52Josh Clark?

  And it was just, just like, that's just what they do. It's almost like they're putting stuff out there as like thought starters for other people's creativity to kind of sprout from. But anyway, the two, the two paths for Slack is kind of split between these two groups, the rewardians and the emergentiles, right?

• 34:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the emergentiles are getting their slack because they're getting the things done that they kind of feel like they want and need to get done. But it's under a deadline from someone else. But then they have their slack. And then the rewardians don't think this is more like Tao of Steve stuff. Did you ever see that movie?

• 34:31Josh Clark?

  No, I need to, though. I'm well aware of it.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  It's sort of, that was sort of that guy's deal. He, he was just like, he had this life philosophy and he would have really fit in with these, uh, with these folks, with the rewardians. They're basically like slack off all the time. Don't do any work until you absolutely have to.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Right. I think there's quite a bit of pot involved every day kind of thing.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Sure. Um, that wouldn't surprise me.

• 34:54Josh Clark?

  And that's what I think most people would think of when they think of like slacking. Like, yeah, that's what you do when you slack. You don't work. You sit around, you smoke pot. You're like never put on pants or anything like that and you're just having the time of your life. As long as like, that's what you want to do. Um, emergent towels, you're like, no, no, there's another way to do this. Like, I feel really good about accomplishing something, about like setting a goal and meeting it about. But that's my goal. Like, I want to learn how to climb a mountain. So I'm going to go learn how to climb a mountain and climb that mountain. And during that whole process, I'm slacking. Like, that's my slack. So those are kind of like the two ways of doing it. And apparently the two groups kind of pity each other and think they have it completely backwards.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  But the, the point is, is neither group is right or wrong because it's all up to the individual what your slack is.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  I mean, what these guys really, it was, uh, it's such a time and place thing. They were born out of this sort of spirit of the merry pranksters, sixties counterculture, Ken Kesey kind of thing.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  But they came along at a time where that had been bulldozed over. And the eighties were being born, which was about as anti, you know, sixties counterculture vibe as you can imagine. But these guys still had that sort of fun playful idea. And, you know, this, this was their invention. I just, I always think it's just so fun and so cool. I, every time I see a, um, devival or a live show, I absolutely do not want to be there.

• 36:26Josh Clark?

  No.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  But I think it's awesome. It was, I liken it to when I saw, um, Spinal Tap in concert. They actually toured when I was in college. And I was such a fan of the movie and they played the Fox Theater and we all went. And I had, it was not fun at all because it was like, it was funny as a movie, but you're at this rock and roll show that is supposed to kind of be funny. But, but there were also people that were really getting into the rock and roll. And I didn't know, I was stuck in between worlds. I didn't know how to feel.

• 36:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's not comfortable.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  And when I was watching these subgenius live shows, I was kind of like, oh, that's like Spinal Tap Live. I don't want to be there, but I'm glad people are enjoying it.

• 37:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's kind of like, um, yeah, and dude, they are enjoying it. The people who go to those are genuinely having like the time of their lives. Like that's their time to like, just, like, just be themselves as much as they ever have in their life.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  It's almost like I would compare it to, um, a, uh, like a meeting of the Juggalos. A, a Comic Con and like Guar Show all mixed together. That's what the devils these days kind of seem like, just based on what I've seen on the internet.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good. I like it. And if you're, if you think this is all really dumb, then you probably would not like their motto. They have a lot of sayings and mottos, but their chief one that they kind of yell out at these, uh, devils is, uh, F them if you can't take a joke, or if they can't take a joke.

• 37:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  And I mean, it's right there. Like they're, it's amazing to me that some people took this too seriously because the motto is literally, this is a joke.

• 38:07Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. And it is really kind of like disconcerting because like if you do take it seriously, like you really have to go to great lengths to, to get past all of the winks, the nods, the absurdity of everything. It suggests that there's like, You're worse off than the average cult member because you're actually taking a joke cult as a cult.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  It's like when Fight Club got too serious. They started blowing up buildings and stuff.

• 38:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  Except there was no violence involved in the Church of the Subgenius.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  No, they're peaceful.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  That's right, because they're all stoned.

• 38:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think a lot of them are. I think a lot of them are like the Frank Zappa types, where they're just weird and they have nothing to do with drugs or alcohol or anything like that.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  That too. They were born with original stoned.

• 38:56Josh Clark?

  Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Requires no drugs.

• 39:00Josh Clark?

  Apparently Frank Zappa was a real jerk to people who did drugs. Like, he had that cafe or restaurant or club or whatever, and he would like kick you out if he thought you were on pot.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  That's conspiracy.

• 39:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was a little pink from what I can tell.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 39:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. And you said also, if this kind of stuff seems weird to you or whatever, or you don't like it, like, that's a pretty, like, fairly normal reaction. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:29Josh Clark?

  But one of the reasons that it might make you feel a little wobbly or a little shaky, or like you're missing something, or like you're being made fun of, that kind of weird feeling in your stomach is because you probably are being made fun of. Like, if you're not in on the joke, like I said earlier, by definition, you're part of the butt of the joke. You're a member of that group.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  And if you actually are actively getting offended at what they're saying and doing, because one of the threads of humor that they very frequently use is bad taste, shock value,

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  like, just basically the opposite of PC. Like, they really don't care for PC very much. And if you're deeply offended by this stuff and you actually, like, respond to it,

• 40:16Josh Clark?

  you're actually kind of proving their point, that you are maybe a little too wrapped up in this culture that they're basically saying, like, this is a fraud. This is all a fraud. And like, you're proving that there's problems with it by getting mad at something where, you know, at a joke, basically.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, and... But you know, before you start feeling too sorry for these people because they're being made fun of as like squares who aren't hip to the joke and don't get the joke. I mean, the original reason this was started was because these very people were outcast and being bullied by those very people to begin with.

• 40:54Josh Clark?

  Right. So let's take a break, man, and we'll talk about some of the lower points in the church of the subgenius that have happened across the years, huh?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 41:25Josh Clark?

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• 42:47Josh Clark?

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• 43:39Josh Clark?

  So if you went to a Devival, one of the things you would find Chuck is, especially an early one, is a lot of like put on preaching, like evangelical mock preaching, but what the guy's doing is like doing a fire and brimstone preacher bit.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  But what he's saying is espousing, you know, Bob stuff about, you know, F them if they can't take a joke, or, you know, whatever.

• 44:09Josh Clark?

  And that like doesn't sit very well usually with people, but also it never really sits very well with me because it's obnoxious even in its real form and it's super obnoxious when it's like mocked because...

• 44:19Speaker 02

  That's why I wouldn't want to be there.

• 44:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  And the anti-music is another reason.

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  That was the next thing I was gonna get to is like if you are not super into this and probably on a pretty decent amount of acid back in like 1985 or four, the anti-music would probably turn you off too. I know I don't like it at all either.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's basically the idea is that they would get a bunch of instruments and you could just do whatever you want with them and the idea is that you're not, you can't play these things. These are not skilled musicians or not even musicians at all. And they would just make noise with them. And, you know, when, watching the documentary, you get the idea from some of them that... It's sort of like the drum circle that finally everyone gets in synchronicity for a minute. You're like, oh, okay, something just happened. That would happen occasionally, apparently, with the anti-music is that it would coalesce at a certain point. Or maybe that was the drugs talking. But basically, it's a bunch of people making a lot of awful noise and screaming.

• 45:21Josh Clark?

  Yes. There was actually a time during the, at devivals, I think during the 90s, maybe? Where a schism in the church developed.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Was very much planned, yeah.

• 45:37Josh Clark?

  Right. So the idea was, so one of the big parts of the, one of the tenets of the church is there, like, the world's going to end eventually on X Day. And X Day was originally slotted for July 5, 1998. And that came and went, and there were no UFOs driven by sex goddesses to come whisk off the subgenii to Planet X to live out the rest of their eternity, partying. And then, but the fact that this was coming along, the church decided, like, we don't know what's going to happen to the pinks after that, so we need to decide. And the schism was formed between people who said, well, there'll probably be sub-subgenii

• 46:22Josh Clark?

  who want to stay and rule the world, and we can just let them rule the pinks from there on out. And then the other group said, no, no, no, all the pinks are going to be slaughtered on X Day, there won't be any pinks left. And apparently, this differing opinion on basic church doctrine, like, was a thread that was carried on for a very long time.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  It was, and I think we just need to be really clear. A schism was written into the script of the Church of the Subgenius. It was, nothing formed, it was, they wrote a heel, basically, into their wrestling show with Papa Joe Mama, who was the leader of the Holocaustals, who believed, and again, I'll ingest, but he believed, like, go out and shoot the rich, basically. Like, kill these people. And I think it was Stang was the leader of the Evangelicals, which was, yeah, let's just enslave them, basically, and keep them alive. And two things here, first of all, in that they eventually had a big show in the 80s,

• 47:25Speaker 02

  kind of jumping back in San Francisco, they had had these sort of small tent devivals with 100 people. And then in San Francisco, they booked this theater for two nights, 900-seat theater for two nights. And we're like, we don't really know if we can do this. And they had set builders and set designers, and it became a real, actual thing. The news covered it. And they did, they covered it. And they had a fake assassination of Bob. Bob finally came out.

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  He walked out on stage and then bang.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was immediately shot. But apparently, they started doing this a lot. Bob had, you know, Bob had many, many lives and could be killed over and over again, assassinated. So there was that. And then after X Day, judging from the documentary is when it seemed to like, kind of go bad. And not go bad in that everybody really started believing and it became this really scary thing. But it sort of lost its je ne sais quoi a little bit. And there were some people, and I think one person specifically even went up to Stang. I don't know if it was the X Day.

• 48:28Josh Clark?

  I think it was that San Francisco show in 1984.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Okay. And he was, you know, obviously, someone who needed some real help because he thought this was all real, was livid that it wasn't being taken seriously and that people were laughing. And that's when Stang was like, ah, man, like, kind of this was bound to happen. But it also made him sad because I'd never wanted anything like this.

• 48:55Josh Clark?

  Right. And that was the reason why. So like, the documentary that was made by Sandy K. Boone, who was involved in a few other pretty, pretty great documentaries recently, including Tower? I don't think it's The Tower, just Tower, the one about the The Charles Whitman, the, the shooting at the University of Texas back in the sixties. Oh, it's amazing. So remember Waking Life, that, that whole thing Linkletter did with the animation?

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:22Josh Clark?

  They did that for this documentary and it really like had a great impact.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  The rotoscoping, cool.

• 49:26Josh Clark?

  Yes. So, um, uh, she was involved in that as well, but she made this documentary. Apparently her late husband was like a great adherent and, and the truth of the sub genius. And she made it also kind of as an ode, ode to him as well. But in it, Stang and Philo break character and like they hadn't broken character for thirty something years, right? Like they've done interviews, uh, they've like, like print, TV, radio, like they've done the radio show. They've like written tons of books. Um, they just don't break character. That's just part of their jam. And for this documentary, they did. And they said the reason why, at least Stang said the reason why he did, um, was because they're kind of getting on in years.

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  And he wants to make sure that it's perfectly clear before he dies, that this is a joke and that everybody knows it was a joke. And it's always been a joke and there's like, you need to take it as a joke so that it doesn't accidentally turn into something like Scientology down the, down the line.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, you watched it, right?

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. I didn't watch it right before this. I saw it several months ago.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, um, and this kind of sums it up in, in the way that it makes sense, but it doesn't. And this is in relation to that, that guy who really came up to him and other people that really thought it was real. He said, we wanted, we always wanted to trick people, but we didn't really want to trick people.

• 50:49Josh Clark?

  Right. Yes. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They were fascinated by the fact that people could be tricked.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  And they wanted to explore that and make fun of it. And they invited other people to explore it and make fun of it. But it wasn't to hurt anybody. They weren't, they weren't actually trying to exploit anybody. Like the idea of having you, having you become a part, become a member, sending your dollar, become ordained, buy into all that sales stuff. Was to point out that that's what was going on in the real world, you know?

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this sort of came to a head, um, in the nineties when they, it was just after Columbine. They had a live show planned in Boston and Papa Joe Mama, who was again their sort of scripted heel agent provocateur, got on a, think a radio show. And somehow referenced Columbine. It was a little unclear.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  I think he blamed Columbine on the Church of the Subgenius.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Oh, was that what it was?

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  I believe so.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Okay, cuz I couldn't quite tell what the reference was, but it was clear that that was over the line for both Philo and Stang. And the show was originally canceled by the theater and then a real church, I think like an Episcopal church stepped up weirdly and said, "You can have it at our church." And then they got bomb threats and they said, "Well, no, I guess we can't do that." And then I think they ended up having it in a, like a public park or something. But that was sort of like where it, you know, the 90s weren't too kind to the, not just like the numbers, but you know, once the internet was born and that was like really when the consumer culture and the internet boom happened for real, it was just so antithetical to the Church of the Subgenius.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  It seemed to kind of fade away

• 52:34Speaker 02

  until later on when the internet kind of helped revive it again.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  So my take is that the, what really kind of let it downhill, not to say that there's like, like, not to say that it went downhill on its own, like that just, just the world changed.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:52Josh Clark?

  And there was, there, like, the world became the parody, not, it wasn't like straight any longer. It was just a joke, but that was real life now. So you can't satirize something that is the satire that you're coming up with. There's just no way to do it.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  No, that's absolutely right.

• 53:11Josh Clark?

  And that's, you know, America changed quite a bit in the last like 20 years and the, like, what do you, like, how, you just can't. You can't satirize something when it becomes this

• 53:23Josh Clark?

  weird version of itself that you were using before. It encroached on your turf kind of thing, you know?

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then the last like 10 minutes of the documentary sort of focus on the Trump administration and these fringe groups that started online there, saying this crazy made up stuff. And that really puts a hurting, like you said, on something like the Church of the Subgenius. As far as being, and their, their numbers were never huge, but I get the idea from watching it that Stang. Still has people that write in that still send him some money. He told one funny joke about getting a payment upon receipt envelope that like he had to pay $2 to even open this thing. And he was all perturbed about that. And there was $1,000 in cash.

• 54:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 54:11Speaker 02

  And he took half of it and immediately took it to a sick friend. Like, that's the kind of guy he is.

• 54:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he struck me as that as well.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  But he's still, you know, paying his mortgage, stuffing envelopes.

• 54:21Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, because I think like if you go back and you read the original books and, you know, even still, I was reading like the Wikipedia that explained all of the different stuff is hilarious and like totally worthwhile and still applies today. Like, it's like, in a certain way, it's timeless, even though it screams Reagan era, you know?

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:42Josh Clark?

  But the, it's still, it still makes sense because we still have like a consumer-driven culture that is, that has a lot to do with gender norms and conformity and exploiting people for their labor. Like, all that stuff is still going on. So, the original stuff still, still stands and still holds.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they, you know, Mark Mothersbaugh of Devo and I can't remember the other guy's name in Devo, they were way into it. Penn Gillette, Nick Offerman, Richard Linklater, Paul Rubens, Pee-wee Herman's Playhouse, head of Bob Dobbs on his big wall collage.

• 55:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  These were all people that were attracted to it. It was a lot of dudes, of course, but they do interview a few of the women in the original group that said like, "We were outcasts and we wanted to meet these weirdo guys and this is where we did it." Like, "We went there because it was mostly guys."

• 55:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  And, you know, "We could meet these dudes." But it was very male-oriented and, I don't know, I just, like I said, I never, I always had fun reading about it and hearing about it, but never wanted to get too involved just because I'm too much of a pink, I guess.

• 55:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yes, it is a lot of fun to read about, for sure. Like, there's a lot of stuff out there on the internet to read and I-

• 55:59Speaker 02

  This is like 10% of it.

• 56:00Josh Clark?

  I encourage, yeah, there's, it's huge. It's an enormous, huge, rambling, like, what do you call a group of beliefs in scripture and doctrine? Mythos, I guess?

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Maybe. Yeah, canon?

• 56:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, canon. That's what I was looking for. There's a huge, extensive canon and it's a lot of fun, especially the older stuff. Some of the newer stuff is not that funny because it's, and I don't mean new, I mean like mid 2000s, the mid aughts kind of stuff. Started to really lose its sense of humor. Some people lost their sense of humor and got real serious about it. The 80s and 90s stuff is hilarious. I strongly recommend going to read

• 56:43Josh Clark?

  An Explanation of the Male-to-Female Discrepancy in the Church of the Subgenius by Reverend Nanzi Regalia.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Or by the Bril book.

• 56:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, I don't think that was in the book. That was just supplemental stuff. It was an essay explaining it. But it also is more like a, kind of a call to arms for those girls who never felt like, or always recognized that they were kind of being forced into certain gender roles and didn't ever feel good about it.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:11Josh Clark?

  She had a quote, "It's not enough to simply burn your bras. Why stop there? Burn a few bridal boutiques in City Hall while you're at it."

• 57:20Speaker 02

  It's a great fight club.

• 57:21Josh Clark?

  It's a good essay, for sure. Totally worth reading. So,

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Good stuff.

• 57:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's a lot more to say about the Church of the Subgenius, but we'll just leave it to you. I feel like we should just part with, "It's a joke. It is a joke, ultimately. It's a joke." And take it as that. Okay?

• 57:39Josh Clark?

  Man, you got that down. You got some yeti in you, pink boy.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Ooh, maybe.

• 57:43Josh Clark?

  And since I called Chuck a pink boy, it's time for listener mail.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Keeping it short and sweet here with a quick correction from a new listener.

• 57:54Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Hi, guys. I'm a very new listener and I love what I've heard so far. However, just three episodes in about the Magna Carta, one of you offhandedly suggested that William the Conqueror was a beloved English king because he annexed Normandy after the Battle of Hastings.

• 58:08Josh Clark?

  That was me.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  That's pretty much backwards, guys. He was a Norman king who conquered England at that battle. William's story would make a great episode. That is from Scott Scattergood in Suan, Korea.

• 58:20Josh Clark?

  Well, Scott, since you're new, you obviously don't know that most of the viewpoint that we give on Stuff You Should Know is from the Vikings viewpoint. So we had it right.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 58:33Josh Clark?

  Scott Scattergood? What a great name.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Right?

• 58:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. What happens if you scramble Scott around? Scatters good.

• 58:42Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us like Scott did, you can send us an email to [email protected].

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts for iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 59:08Josh Clark?

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• 59:40Speaker 00

  Hello?

• 59:40Speaker 03

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Oh, hey.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 59:48Speaker 03

  Really?

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Yep. I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 59:50Speaker 03

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 59:52Speaker 00

  And MVP savings.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Oh, you do care.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Obviously.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Okay, I feel better.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Good. Now, let's go get some snacks.

• 1:00:02Speaker 04

  At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 1:00:16Speaker 05

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.