Selects: What exactly is stoicism?

The word stoic has taken on its own meaning apart from the philosophical movement which gave it life. In this classic episode, learn all about the early stoics, what the philosophy is all about and where the movement stands today. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 03

  Hi, everybody. I'm feeling very stoic today, so we're going to use what exactly is stoicism as our weekly select selection. This one was released in July, July 4th, in fact, 2017. What a great 4th of July topic. Learn all about stoicism right here, right now.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:41Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant, guest producer Noel. Jerry's been out a lot lately, Chuck. Have you noticed?

• 1:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  Nah, I haven't really either.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Of course, Jerry's got big life things going on.

• 1:57Josh Clark?

  She does.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Buying and selling houses. She's like a real estate mogul.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Visiting the mall, doing all sorts of stuff.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  We're just a couple of deep thinkers hanging out on the stoia.

• 2:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Specifically, what is it, the stoic? Did you practice the word, this pronunciation at all?

• 2:22Speaker 03

  I tried to pronounce a lot of this. But, you know, ancient Greek, you know, the phrase, "It's all Greek to me."

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  It comes from not being able to pronounce these things.

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  Quite literal. The stoic poikili. I think that's probably pretty close, man.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  So, can I start this with a couple of quick thoughts?

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  First of all, I took four different philosophy quizzes before we recorded.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Like what kind of philosophy do you subscribe to type quiz?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, the ones that are super accurate.

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Because they can figure that out in eight to 15 questions.

• 3:04Josh Clark?

  Sure, and then you can move on and find out what muppet you are.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  So, here's my results here. For the first one, I was Epicurean.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  The second one, existentialism.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  The third one, atheist existentialist.

• 3:19Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  And the fourth, Nietzsche slash stoic.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  Nietzsche was a huge critic of Stoicism. I'm surprised they put those two together.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Well, that is Chuck, though. You know what I'm saying?

• 3:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're a contradiction in terms. You're yin and yang.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Well, I am. The reason why I took these is because when I was doing the research on Stoicism, I found me, I found myself a lot of times going, "Yep, yep, totally." And then a lot of times going, "No, that's really not me."

• 3:50Josh Clark?

  Same here, same here. And I think even the Stoics from back in the day realized that there were very few, very, very few actual, what they called sages, walking around, Stoic sages, who really fulfilled every aspect of this to a T.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  And I think that, I think one of the reasons why Stoicism today is making a comeback and it's so appealing is because, well, there's two reasons. One, more than kind of a navel gazing type philosophy, where you're trying to figure out the nature of existence or something like that, it's more a blueprint for existing day to day in a useful, happy way.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  And then, secondly, it's a...

• 4:41Josh Clark?

  You can kind of pick and choose. It's almost like a buffet. You can pick and choose what aspects of it you want to adopt or use. And no, you know, Greek ghost is gonna come along and spear you in the face.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  With a trident.

• 4:56Josh Clark?

  Right. Poseidon punch.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think that's, I mean, first of all, the age of reason fascinates me to no end. And second, I've kind of wanted to cover some of the great philosophies of all time.

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  That sounds like a good start.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Well, it is, but it's just kind of daunting because people spend, like, that's their life's work, you know? And for us to try and summarize any of them in 30 to 45 minutes is kind of like, you know, I don't know what philosophy you would liken that to. Foolishism?

• 5:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, dunce-ism.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  But that's what we do, you know?

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  Well, let's, how about this? If this one goes well, maybe we'll take it as a sign that we can tackle some other ones. But you're absolutely right. Like, even the, even just like, say, the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is meant, you know, it's sharp and it's detailed and it's exhaustive, but it's also clearly meant for laypeople interested in philosophy, right? It's just stoicism is so involved that it's not possible for us to like really capture all of it, even in an overview, you know? Or giving it, just hitting the highlights. We can't possibly hit all the highlights. There's just too much to it. And that's just stoicism. I still say it's worth talking about, though, just because it's so interesting.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  So if I get up in the middle, you're gonna pull me back?

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  I'll just keep going.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Well, I like the Urban Dictionary definition.

• 6:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Stoic is someone who does not give a beep about the stupid things in this world that most people care so much about. Stoics do have emotions, but only for the things in this world that really matter. They are the most real people alive. And then in their little example is a group of kids sitting by the porch. Stoic walks by. One kid says something very mean.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Hey, you're a blankety-blank and you blank-blank. And the Stoic says, good for you, and keeps going.

• 6:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  So part of me really, like, I hear that and I'm like, man, I am so that person on so many levels, but then sometimes I'm totally not. And I think what the difference is, or what matters is, well, it depends on if they say something that matters to you.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Um.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  Or if something does matter to you, like, I might get really riled up about some stuff.

• 7:17Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, that would make you not Stoic.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  That doesn't rile anyone else up, but I also, some things that really make other people irate, I'm just like, man, can't change it, it is what it is. And I only can get upset about the things I can change.

• 7:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you could apply that to everything, you'd be pretty, pretty high up there in the Stoic, um, pantheon.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  I'd be a Stoic, uh, five-star general.

• 7:45Josh Clark?

  Pretty much. Five-finger punch guy.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  All right, so we beat around the bush. I mean, that was a pretty good definition, actually, even though it was from the Urban Dictionary, but, um.

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  We should say we picked that one up from an Aon article, "Why Stoicism is One of the Best Mind Hacks Ever Devised."

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a good one.

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  By Larry Wallace, yeah. He did a good job, kind of, giving an overview of the whole thing.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  I think Larry Wallace is one of the great modern Stoicists.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  Maybe. There's plenty of them running around these days.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, but we're, uh, I mean, we'll, we'll go back in time and study the beginnings of Stoicism because we're talking about, like, you hear the word Stoic today.

• 8:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  And it means, it was taken from this, but it's kind of someone, like, sort of a grim-faced Stoic, doesn't say much. And that, that's not what Stoicism, and they say in our article several times with a capital S, really is all about.

• 8:38Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. To these days, people typically, or I should say, these days, up to about three years ago, people thought of Stoics as somebody who could watch their dog get hit by a car and, you know, their reaction was to raise their chin a little higher up in the air, you know?

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:54Josh Clark?

  Like, just grin and bear it. As Larry put it, Larry, we're, I'm on a first-name basis with Larry Wallace.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  Lair.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  That it's a philosophy of grim endurance, tolerating rather than transcending life's agonies and adversities, just kind of trudging through, um...

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Just taking hit after hit from life as it deals deals them to you, right? That was the idea of Stoicism. You can kind of like, it's not like that's just radically unlike actual Stoicism, but it's an outsider's interpretation of what the Stoics are actually doing, what's actually going on, the purpose of the whole thing. That outsider's view that doesn't really fully understand it became the popular view. Until recently, until it started to kind of gain some traction lately.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you know, throughout the years, Stoicism has informed some religions. These days, there are a lot of atheists that are Stoics. But I like how our article says it. Above all, it teaches the value of emotional control in living one's life fully.

• 10:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so here's the basis of it. The basis of it is if you can detach yourself from emotional responses to things, then something that comes along, whether good or bad, is not going to get your goat.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:19Josh Clark?

  Stoicism is all about protecting your goat and not letting anything get it. And the way that the way that they do that is by saying, there are very few things that I can control in life. And everything that I can't control, I'm not going to get riled up over. You know, lose my job? Oh, well, it happens. It doesn't mean I'm any less of a person. I just need to go out and get another job. Dog gets hit by a car? Well, that's really awful because I really like that dog. But I'll just go get another dog or maybe I'll just learn to live without the dog. Maybe I was becoming too attached to the dog. Things like that, that's Stoicism. But the whole point of it is it's not just to get your goat, it's or to protect your goat from being gotten.

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  It's about living a moral life where you're a very good human being. And the idea is that the only way to really do that is through things like rationalism and investigating the universe and being understanding of knowledge. And then pursuing ethics, specific ethics. And they figured out the best way to do that is dispassionately.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think my bumper sticker would say, onboard, colon, part-time Stoicist, full-time dreamer.

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  Okay. That is, that is a specific.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, right?

• 11:43Josh Clark?

  Bumper sticker.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  I used to have a lot of bumper stickers in high school and now I loathe them so much.

• 11:48Josh Clark?

  Really? What did you have, like?

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Oh, I had an old Volkswagen Beetle and that was, my family actually bought brand new in 1968 and was passed down from kid to kid to kid.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  It's an heirloom.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  It was. It was very cool, I thought at the time. Well, it is cool. I love those old Beetles. But I just went through one of those phases where I was like, you know, here's a Native American saying and here's something about Mother Nature and this Bob Marley had this to say and

• 12:14Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Just, yeah, I was one of those. And now I see those cars with all the things and I'm just like, shut up. Nobody cares.

• 12:25Josh Clark?

  That's funny.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  Maybe I'm a cynic too.

• 12:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, did you have a 311 sticker?

• 12:32Speaker 03

  No, this was pre 311, actually.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Okay, gotcha. So did your mom come out and be like, what'd you do to the family heirloom?

• 12:38Speaker 03

  No.

• 12:38Josh Clark?

  You put stickers all over it.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  No, it's funny that that car had a, the rear floorboard was missing on one side.

• 12:47Josh Clark?

  My dad had a car like that, a Malibu.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  So you could like see the street?

• 12:50Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  I had a piece of wood there.

• 12:53Josh Clark?

  Now that I look back, oh, he didn't even have a piece of wood. Now that I look back, I'm like, that was extraordinarily irresponsible to be driving around with kids in the backseat

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  with the, with the street visible?

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  I love that your dad was just like, watch your feet, kids.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Easy does it.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  All right. So look, you want to go back and talk about the history a little bit?

• 13:14Josh Clark?

  No, I want to keep beating around the bush.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  All right. Let's get in the wayback machine and

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  we need to really juice it up.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Because we're going way back.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  Got some kerosene, got some banana peels

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  and got some airplane glue, but that's just for us.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  That's right, because it's a long ride.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Ancient Greece is where we're headed, to the time of the great philosophers. And like we said earlier, sitting here on the stoa, that was a joke, but it wasn't. And you, you know, you said stoa, you gonna try it again?

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  The stoa poikili.

• 13:53Speaker 03

  Yes, or painted porch is what it means. And that was a public space in Athens, Greece.

• 13:57Josh Clark?

  It was like a portico.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, where people would hang out and talk and chew the fat. And that's what I love about this time was people would just, they were just alive with ideas. These philosophical ideas of trying to figure it all out.

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but don't you think like every once in a while you'd just be like, oh, everybody shut up?

• 14:16Speaker 03

  Like go do something. Go do something useful.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  Plant a field.

• 14:21Josh Clark?

  Just stop talking.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  No, but I, I agree with you. Overall, it was a pretty thrilling time.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  Did you take philosophy in college at all?

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  No, no, I didn't.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  I really did not. I don't think I took a single philosophy class now that I think about it, not even a survey.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  I took the one kind of general class. I guess it was the 101. And I actually made an A, which I didn't make a ton of As in college. And I remember at the time, kind of the same thing, about half the class, I was like, man, so fascinating. And then the other half, I was just like, oh, man, what a waste of time. Like do something useful. Go like volunteer for a charity.

• 15:00Josh Clark?

  Go make something out of wood, anything.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  All right, so back to the stoa. We're on this painted porch, this portico, as it were.

• 15:09Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  People are everywhere running their mouths about what they think is important. And then this dude wanders up, Xeno of Sidium.

• 15:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, who'd recently been shipwrecked.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  And there were other Xenos, not to be confused.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  I know, that is confusing. There should be one Xeno.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  There can be only one.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  In all of, in all of history.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  There were Xenos of other things, but this is Xeno of Sidium. And you're right, he was shipwrecked and he was wandering around after a trip from Cyprus.

• 15:40Josh Clark?

  Did you say we're in Athens?

• 15:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, not Georgia.

• 15:43Josh Clark?

  No.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Although we did our fair share of sitting around on porches, talking nonsense there as well.

• 15:48Josh Clark?

  But that's a porch porch.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:51Josh Clark?

  Not a Greek porch.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  And so Xeno took a little bit of insight from the cynics and then eventually said, you know what, I got my, kind of forming my own thoughts here. And I think everyone else is doing it. I have my own philosophy.

• 16:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  And it's called Stoicism.

• 16:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, named after later, later, I don't think he called it that. I'm not sure. He probably called it Xenoism. They're like, nah, that sucks. We're gonna call it Stoicism after the porch.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:19Josh Clark?

  But this is, I mean, like, the Stoicism very quickly became one of the big philosophies at the time.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:27Josh Clark?

  And it rivaled some of the philosophies that it grew out of, like Socratic philosophy. And like you said, cynicism, the cynics.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 16:36Josh Clark?

  And actually, if you look at Stoicism, it's kind of a compromise between Socrates, or so crates, as Bill and Ted call them.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:46Josh Clark?

  Philosophy, which was that to lead a good life, and this was the point of all of the philosophies at this time during this age of reason.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Was achieving what was called eudaimonia. And eudaimonia is a life worth living. It's thriving, it's flourishing, it's being happy, like real happiness, right? That was the pursuit of all of these different ideas that were floating around at the time was how to achieve that. Socrates had the idea that you achieve that through like 12 cardinal virtues. And some of them were things you could cultivate in yourself, like courage, a sense of justice, that kind of stuff. But then there are other ones too, that had like everything to do with luck, like being good looking was one of them, right?

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:33Josh Clark?

  If you weren't good looking, if you were ugly, sorry buddy, you could never achieve eudaimonia, right?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:38Josh Clark?

  On the other end of the spectrum were the cynics, and the cynics believed that earthly trappings like wealth and fame and glory, anything like that was the path to ruin. And that the true path to eudaimonia was living simply and living in poverty. And so Xeno comes along and hears all these, and as he's formulating his own ideas, he's like, Socrates makes some sense over here, and so do the cynics a little bit, but I'm gonna put them together. And that's where Stoicism came from. It was a compromise between the two where you live a life of, of pursuing eudaimonia through these virtues, four virtues.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  I think there's justice, courage, wisdom, and then temperance, right? So you're practicing those four virtues. So that's kind of a nod to Socrates.

• 18:32Josh Clark?

  And you don't have to live in poverty. You can be wealthy. Because if Stoicism is anything, it's wealthy people who got into philosophy that weren't quite sure how to feel about being wealthy.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, to say, to kind of come to the point that like, having money's not a bad thing.

• 18:51Josh Clark?

  Right, right. And so what they, what they came up with was, sure, you can be wealthy, and that's okay. You can prefer to be wealthy, but you just can't be attached to it. You can't desire to be wealthy because you can't control being wealthy. And if you pursue being wealthy, you're pursuing something beyond your control. So if you just happen to be wealthy, that's great. You can be happy with it, but also be prepared to lose it at any given time. And that's a big part of Stoicism.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's so funny, though, to think about, like, thousands of years ago in ancient Greece, like, they spent so much time thinking about living this, all these schools of thought of living this life. So like, putting so much thought into living to life to its fullest and all the different ways that they defined it. And eventually, like, over the years, like, as recently as, like, the generation of our parents and grandparents in the United States, like, the philosophy of life was like, you just go to work and you work hard until you die, and that's the only thing that matters.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Like, all that other stuff is garbage.

• 20:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, I think that's one of the reasons why Stoicism is becoming appealing again, is this idea that, like, work seems to be kind of going through a weird transformation, doesn't it?

• 20:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:13Josh Clark?

  Like, it's not like that anymore. Like, that ethic is still around for sure, but, like, how many people do you know work from home? Like, almost entirely?

• 20:23Speaker 03

  Ah, a lot.

• 20:25Josh Clark?

  A lot, and that's fairly new. So I wonder if, like, this changing work dynamic is leading to this resurgence in Stoicism, that you can find happiness through other stuff.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  I mean, part of me thinks this is all, like, super worthwhile, and part of me thinks, and it's sort of indulgent.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  And a bit, like you said, navel gazy. And like, put, just start practicing good things instead of sitting around thinking about the best way to live life.

• 20:53Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll talk about criticisms of them later on, but I think you hit a big one, though, Chuck, is the idea that it's self indulgent because it demands introspection almost every moment of every day.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:06Josh Clark?

  You want to take a break and then get back to it?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I gotta, I gotta get my head together. Where's that airplane glue?

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  Here you go.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  All right.

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• 24:53Josh Clark?

  Nothing like airplane glue to get your head back on straight, isn't it?

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Just kidding, of course, everyone.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  We're smart guys. We don't do that kind of thing.

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  No, it's pretty tough to be smart and huff model airplane glue.

• 25:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:07Josh Clark?

  You're pretty much making a choice between that and being smart.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  That's what they teach you early on.

• 25:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  Like, you want to go somewhere in life, you want to huff airplane glue.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  It's the one thing Nancy Reagan didn't lie about.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  All right, so Xeno got things going.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Peace of mind that comes with living a life of virtue in accordance with reason and nature. And then other dudes got on boards, and of course, got on boards, got on board. And they were all dudes back then, because everything was from the man's perspective.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Just want to point that out.

• 25:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because it's changed so dramatically since then.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  But some of the other early Stoicists, Cleanthes, Cato.

• 25:49Josh Clark?

  Cato the younger or elder? Younger, right?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Cato the Caelan?

• 25:54Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, I forgot about him.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  I'm not sure which Cato.

• 25:57Josh Clark?

  I think it's the younger. Yeah, we'll find out from two people who email in to let us know.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Seneca, and then a very important Stoicist.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Well, I'm going to pronounce it.

• 26:12Speaker 03

  Ep- epic- epic-ectus?

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  Epictetus.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  Epictetus?

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  Sounds like a vaccine shot.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  It does. E.P.I.C.T.E.T.U.S.

• 26:23Josh Clark?

  It's that C going into a T that's getting you. I think it's just Epictetus or Epictetus. I think Epictetus is what we should go with.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  I want another C in there. I want it to be Epictetus, but it's not.

• 26:34Josh Clark?

  No, it's not. It's Epictetus.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  All right, so, uh...

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, and don't forget Marcus Aurelius, man.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Oh, well, sure. I mean, he comes a little bit later. Like, he was the ruler of...

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Infant? Man, what is my problem today?

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  It's okay, man. Everyone knew what you meant.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  He was the philosopher king, and that was when Stoicism was kind of the most popular thing going.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, apparently they moved from Athens to Rome, which I didn't realize this. I always had the idea that Rome venerated Hellenistic Greece hundreds of years after. Basically, the Greek civilization had had just kind of, you know, gone into a bit of a twilight or had gone out of its heyday.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  No, there was total cross pollination.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 27:23Josh Clark?

  Including some of these early Stoics who traveled from Athens to Rome and basically with with that move transferred the seed of philosophy from Athens to Rome, from Greek to Rome, to Rome, from Greece to Rome. I didn't realize that they were actually like cross pollinating one another at the time.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:42Josh Clark?

  Did you know that?

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Uh, I think I recalled that from deep in my college memory banks.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Uh, so Epictetus, Tetus, man, um, he had a big role in the Stoic movement. Uh, he was a former slave, um, which kind of makes sense in for in terms of Stoicism.

• 28:02Josh Clark?

  He almost, almost single handedly gives, um, credence to Stoicism because so many other Stoics were extraordinarily wealthy, powerful men.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 28:15Josh Clark?

  That it's like, yeah, it's pretty easy for you to go through life saying, you know, it's just, just take what life gives you if life is giving you nothing but Golgolion all the time, right? This guy was born a slave, crippled in the knee for life and and became a Stoic, one of the great Stoic thinkers and just through his life proved that Stoicism can work.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he wrote, uh, a handbook at the time was called an Inqueridion and he wrote the Inqueridion of Epictetus.

• 28:48Josh Clark?

  Inqueridium literally means handbook. It means ready at hand.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  So, uh, it was a very famous handbook and he attributed, uh, I mean, the first line of it was some things are in our control and others not.

• 29:00Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  And that kind of sums it all up. Like he could have said the end, but he decided to dive a little deeper.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  I. Agree with you. I think our brand of Stoicism has about the same contours. Cause that, that, that, right there, that's all, that's everything you need to know, right there. Is some things you can control, most things you can't control. There you go.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Like, don't get too high, too low.

• 29:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Don't get too mad about something.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  Well, ultimately, I think that's what it boils down to. I don't really find much of a problem when people are overjoyed. I don't think that's an issue. And technically with Stoicism, that is, that's a problem. You should not become overjoyed. Experiencing joy is fine.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 29:44Josh Clark?

  But, but just being like overcome with happiness or joy or grief or whatever it is. You're, you're, you're violating one of those four cardinal virtues, temperance, which is just being tempered and even keeled.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:01Josh Clark?

  So, but I think if you're saying, um, don't get upset about something that's out of your control. Don't blame others. Don't try to control other people. Just know that whatever comes, you can handle it. There you go. That's all you need to know for me.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you know, I mean, how many times have you heard me say it is what it is, which is an annoying thing to hear and say.

• 30:21Josh Clark?

  But it's pretty stoic.

• 30:22Speaker 03

  Well, it is, but it's also in my case, like it is what it is until it isn't. It just matters if I personally riled up about something, you know?

• 30:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but I think, again, though, if like, there's probably some people who, who, um, subscribe to at least modern Stoicism, listening to this. And I would guess that they would say, that's because Stoicism is basically meant to apply to every day of your life. Like, no Stoics are really expected to become sages in their lifetimes.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:54Josh Clark?

  That it's something you just do every single day is try to not get riled up. But of course, something's gonna come along and get you riled up. That's just human nature. Stoicism is trying to put a bridal on that human nature.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, and this is insider stuff. Uh, I think you and I complement each other because we rarely get. Worked up about the same thing.

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Just voter suppression?

• 31:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, no, it happens here and there, but just in our personal lives and, and everything to do with work, like, oftentimes I've noticed like something that'll rile me up, you're calming me down and the other way around.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  I mean, I think that's one reason we've lasted so long. Like if two people were so similar, that they're constantly worked up about the same stuff.

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  No one, you know, you're just gonna be working each other up and no one's gonna be there to say, hey, man, it is what it is.

• 31:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, man. Hey, mellow out. Here's a Bob Marley bumper sticker.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Exactly. Uh, so should we talk a little bit about the areas of study?

• 31:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  All right. Well, there are three main ones in Stoicism. Uh, and this is all, you know, to deal with introspection, which is kind of like all philosophies. Um, physics is the first thing, and it's not physics like you think of, uh, that you hate studying in high school.

• 32:13Josh Clark?

  Well, it falls under a larger umbrella term, I guess.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're talking about the, the natural world, the natural universe, and also what lies beyond it. And, and when they say the natural world, they're talking about everything. Um, God, the divine, uh, nature, everything that we know and things that we don't know.

• 32:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, everything we would view as science, or like you said, nature. Um, yeah, all that stuff. That's physics. And all of it, the, one of the things the Stoics, I think, if they weren't the first to come up with it, they definitely popularized it, was the idea that all of this was interconnected.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:52Josh Clark?

  Which is pretty, I mean, you take it for granted today. Like, everybody thinks that everything's interconnected these days, you know? But, um, I, it's to be among the first to kind of point that out or suggest that's pretty, pretty significant contribution to Western thought.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I imagine that was a pretty deep thing when it first started hitting people.

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  You know?

• 33:13Josh Clark?

  Can't you just see George Carlin being like, oh, he just blew my mind?

• 33:17Speaker 03

  Uh, oh, because he was Socrates?

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Man.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  Wait, no, he wasn't Socrates. He was, um...

• 33:24Speaker 03

  No, he was the...

• 33:25Josh Clark?

  The guy, their spirit animal.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. What was his name?

• 33:31Speaker 03

  We killed on this.

• 33:32Josh Clark?

  We'll just edit this part out.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  I didn't know I had to brush up on my Bill and Ted.

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  I didn't either. I surprised myself. You should have seen my face.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  You know, they kept, uh, they kept talking about remakes, like as recently as a couple of years ago, I think. Or not remakes, but, uh, sequels.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  With the originals?

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Like Keanu Reeves is like, man, I love those movies. I'd love to go make another one.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  Did you see, what, what is, um, so was Keanu Reeves Bill or Ted? Uh, why are we even doing this to ourselves?

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Boy, I want to say he was Ted.

• 34:04Josh Clark?

  So the guy who played the other guy?

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, Alex Winter?

• 34:08Josh Clark?

  Oh, geez, Chuck. Wow, nice job. So Alex Winter was in, um,

• 34:17Josh Clark?

  uh, what was the Charles Bronson vehicle, like his most favorite? Death Wish. Death Wish 3. Death Wish 3 was what he was in, which was when Golan Globus got their hands on it and turned it into like a schlock violent, like, um, almost post-apocalyptic movie.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:34Josh Clark?

  Um, and he's great in it, but he's also in, um, a, a documentary on Golan Globus. I can't remember what the name of the, name of the, um, documentary is, but it's just about how bad the movies they made were and how, how gleefully these guys made them. But, um, he's interviewed in it. That guy hasn't aged a day.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  No.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  He looks exactly.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  Bill.

• 34:58Josh Clark?

  Okay, so he's Bill.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:00Josh Clark?

  All right, so, uh.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  So we got that settled.

• 35:03Josh Clark?

  Physics was done. What's next?

• 35:05Speaker 03

  Uh, logic, which, uh, they wanted to include, um, social sciences, psychology, sociology, history, which I, I kind of like. I'm down with that as far as the philosophies go. They wanted to include all this stuff, uh, but collectively, they kind of called this all reason. And it was a very big deal, uh, to Stoicism, perhaps the biggest deal.

• 35:27Josh Clark?

  Right, and they also were engaged in epistemology, which is theories of what knowledge is, how we gain knowledge, what's true, what's belief, what's false, how do we differentiate between these things? And they spent a lot of time investigating this and putting it all under logic, because it was through logic that you could investigate physics, which included investigating God and the nature of the universe and stuff like that. And then through all that, that investigation, that introspection, that navel gazing, you were ultimately figuring out how to best pursue and best live out the third part, which was the ethics of the whole thing.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you mentioned the four great virtues earlier, courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And the whole idea here is, it's not like you want to block out the bad and only embrace the good. You like, you want to consider both the good and the bad, but just don't let it, any of it, get in the way of anything that you're trying to pursue in your life.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  Right. Pretty simple.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and the whole good, bad thing. Where did you find this, this thing on ethics? Was that the?

• 36:42Josh Clark?

  That was the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, from their, from their entry on it.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:49Josh Clark?

  It was pretty, pretty good. The whole thing-

• 36:50Speaker 03

  It was.

• 36:51Josh Clark?

  Dude, you should have seen how in-depth they go, though, but I thought this one was a good snippet.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  Well, I'm sure, yeah, they dive pretty deep. But I thought this is a pretty good little summation. They're, you know, they're talking about, like you said, like, money isn't just not good, or AKA bad. Things like this, they called indifference, as in I-N-D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T-S.

• 37:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  Not indifference. And it's like, not good or bad. It could be either one. It's really kind of all about not letting something like that get in the way of your pursuit.

• 37:31Josh Clark?

  Right. So, and again, it went back to wealth, right? And this, this person in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy points out that like, money definitely, being wealthy usually is, is helpful or beneficial to the individual.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 37:49Josh Clark?

  But it can also not be beneficial, where, say, you have a big heroin problem. Well, the more money you get, the more money you're gonna spend on heroin. So in that case, being wealthy is detrimental to you, not beneficial.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:02Josh Clark?

  And for something to be a good, it has to be good- Under all circumstances, and to a Stoic, there's only four things that are good under all circumstances, which are those four cardinal virtues.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:14Josh Clark?

  Everything else, like you said, is an indifferent, and it can either be preferred or dispreferred. Like, wealth typically would fall under being a preferred indifferent, whereas, say, disease, having chronic disease, would be a dispreferred, dis- dispreferred, wow.

• 38:31Speaker 03

  (laughing).

• 38:33Josh Clark?

  A dispreferred indifferent.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Man, that's tough, though.

• 38:37Josh Clark?

  It is. But the, the point is, is whether it's fabulous wealth or diabetes, they should affect you about the same. Or you might want one, you might not want to have one, but if you have either one, you can live with it. And that brings up a huge, huge component of Stoicism that's really been blown up and exploded in the 21st century, which is, you should take adversity and turn it into a, an opportunity for growth. That is a huge aspect of Stoicism that's, that's really being practiced and espoused these days.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm down with that. Like, I don't, I don't think, I like being able to take from all these philosophies and different religions to form your, sort of, pathway through life, you know?

• 39:29Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Like, when I hear sometimes, I started to read about Buddhism, and, and the whole thing with Buddhism of like, every day you start anew, and you have a new chance. Like, that really appeals to me, too.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  What I don't like is, uh, when either religions or philosophies say like, no, like, this is the only way, and everything else is BS.

• 39:53Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  You know?

• 39:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  That just, that's a harsh buzzkill.

• 39:59Josh Clark?

  It really is. Not only is it BS, but I'm gonna kill you for thinking otherwise.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  So Seneca, who was one of the great thinkers of Stoicism, he was an advisor to Nero, and we'll talk about him as criticism of Stoicism later on. But he had a very famous quote where he says, "You are unfortunate in my judgment, for you have never been unfortunate. You have passed through life with no antagonist to face you. No one will know what you are capable of, not even yourself." And that kind of shapes the basis of that idea that no matter what life throws at you, you take it and you say, "I'm gonna become a better person from this." Like, "Oh, this happened. Well, that's great, because that means that I can learn to be better at this."

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  So, my dog just got hit by a car. I'm gonna practice fortitude and make it through this really hard time and become a stronger person on the other side.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, he may as well have said, "You, trust fund kid."

• 41:07Josh Clark?

  Sure. Right, exactly. And I mean, that makes a... People turn that on Seneca as well, but a lot of modern Stoics come to his defense as like, "No, that guy had a harder life than you would think."

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Should we take another break?

• 41:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  All right, let's do it. And we'll talk about Seneca and Cicero and all other kinds of weird names.

• 41:42Josh Clark?

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• 43:57Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, you were saying, you were talking about religion.

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:02Josh Clark?

  Stoicism apparently informed Christianity in a lot of ways.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Buddhism in some ways.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Yet atheists embrace it. It's kind of weird.

• 44:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, these days. But I mean, the early Stoics were definitely, they definitely believed in a divine intervention. It was kind of the basis of the whole thing that this is God's will, so why, why try to control it? Who are you to try to control it? Just roll with the punches.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a big, when, when I was taking all those philosophy quizzes, they're all a little bit different, but you saw through line through a lot of these questions and the free will one was in every single one of them.

• 44:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Like, how do you feel about free will? And they had different ways of asking it, but you know, that.

• 44:45Josh Clark?

  Free will. What do you think?

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Exactly. If you want to find out which philosophy that you jibe with, you have to answer the free will question. Free will question.

• 44:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Hey, that's easier to say than dis-.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Do.

• 45:00Josh Clark?

  Dispreferred indifferent.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  Nice work.

• 45:03Josh Clark?

  So, so one of the big points, especially today for practicing Stoicism, is looking at adversity as an opportunity for growth.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Right. That's just a good tool in life, I think.

• 45:16Josh Clark?

  Another one, and this one I really, this is where I big time diverge from Stoicism as like a part of a daily practice, is something called negative visualization.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, try and, try and imagine the worst case scenario.

• 45:32Josh Clark?

  Constantly.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm not into that at all.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  No. So say you're, say you're at like your child's birthday party, right?

• 45:39Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  And you are, not you specifically, this is you.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 45:42Josh Clark?

  Just a general person. And you're having just the most. Intense moment of of joy and appreciation for your child. According to Stoics, you should follow that up with a thought about how at your child's next doctor's appointment, your child could be diagnosed with terminal leukemia.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  That that is what you should be doing basically all the time, negative visualization. And the idea is, it's twofold. One, you're preventing yourself from becoming overjoyed at that moment.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:15Josh Clark?

  Don't, don't do that.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  And then secondly, you're, you're exploring how you will feel if your kid does get diagnosed with something horrible or something bad happens. And that when it actually happens, you'll say, that's not so bad. I'm already used to it. Or you'll be able to confront it through your imagination and say, this is what I'm afraid of? That's not that bad. But I mean, it's a really extreme horrific example.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  But, but it is ultimately, it's definitely in step with Stoicism. That you should be visualizing the worst case scenario all the time.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the reasons Stoicism has such a downer reputation, such that Cicero wrote, "A Stoic riles enthusiasm. He is much more likely to extinguish any enthusiasm the student may have to begin with."

• 47:11Josh Clark?

  Burn.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a pretty good burn. And, you know, I get that, like, who would, if you, if that was one of the first things you learned, if you started to poke around with Stoicism, 99% of people would probably be like, man, I don't wanna, I don't like the sounds of that.

• 47:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I like the not having to control everything aspect, but the thinking about nothing but negative thoughts all the time.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:37Josh Clark?

  You know, and I, I get the point of it, I just, it doesn't, it doesn't appeal to me.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you shouldn't be Pollyanna either.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Well, no, it's, it's in direct contradiction to the idea of the power of positive thinking.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  Which a Stoics, like, you fool, what are you doing? All you're doing is setting yourself up for nothing but letdowns when that doesn't actually come true.

• 47:59Speaker 03

  Well, but I also agree with that to a certain degree, you know, like, the whole, like, just, you can conjure it up just by thinking positively. I think that's on the opposite side equally BS.

• 48:12Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  Sure, I think so too.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  I'm kind of right down the middle, I guess, when it comes to that stuff.

• 48:18Josh Clark?

  And I think most people are, but I think that's what's fascinating about this kind of thing is it's like, whoa, there's, are some people actually are to these, these degrees, these extremes? It's interesting to me.

• 48:29Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and the other interesting thing is, you know, you're talking about Christianity and then it's weird how Stoicism, on one hand, like atheists, like I can totally see how they'd be down with Stoicism, but also the whole notion that some believers in God and some Christians, like, give it all up to God, because only God can control anything, so all we're gonna do is pray about it. And that's popular among Stoics as well.

• 48:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  So it's just interesting that it has such a wide range as far as from atheism to like, you know, serious, serious, give it up to God Christianity.

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, no, it definitely, yeah, and it almost, it's kind of like, it's that buffet thing again where people can come along and take what they want from it and it becomes part of their own philosophy or their own religion or whatever.

• 49:23Josh Clark?

  Let's talk about some of the ways that it's been used over the years, Stoicism, right?

• 49:28Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:30Josh Clark?

  So there've been a lot of people who have followed Stoic thought, like Adam Smith apparently was very much informed by Stoicism when he wrote The Wealth of Nations, because one of the big, big aspects of it was individual liberty. One, one cool thing about the early Stoics was that everybody's equal.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:51Josh Clark?

  Doesn't matter whether you're a man, woman, gay, straight, black, white, whatever. Everyone is equal, and this was at a time when slavery was rampant, right?

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:03Josh Clark?

  So that was a big, a big, that's a big aspect to, that's a big aspect of The Wealth of Nations, is anybody can come along and become a capitalist, you just have to compete, right? Another place that it popped up kind of famously was in cognitive behavioral therapy.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, which initially when I saw that, I was like, huh, that kind of surprised me, but then it all made sense.

• 50:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  Like exposure to-

• 50:30Speaker 03

  Something bad can help you get over it is kinda like that conjuring up the worst possible, it's almost numbing yourself to the worst possible thing if you think about that.

• 50:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  Worst-case-scenario thing all the time, it's almost a way of preparing for that.

• 50:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it's rooted specifically, one of the founders of CBT, Albert Ellis, was an adherent of Stoicism as a younger man. And what's known as the cognitive model of emotion, which is the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy, is based on Epictetus's maxim that people are disturbed not by things, but by their view of things. And that's part of that whole Stoic philosophy, which is, nothing is good or bad. There's only good in the four virtues, everything else is how you view it.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:26Josh Clark?

  Whether it's losing your job or winning the lottery, those things aren't inherently good or bad. It's you, the person experiencing that, who bestows good or bad on them.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:37Josh Clark?

  And why label things?

• 51:39Speaker 03

  Sure. I'm down with that.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  A little bit.

• 51:43Josh Clark?

  Did you hear about Admiral Stockdale?

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember that name for sure, when he came out with his book, Courage Under Fire: Testing Epictetus's Doctrines in a Laboratory of Human Behavior in 1993. He was a famous prisoner of war in Vietnam. For seven years, endured some of the worst of the worst that you can imagine in war. And what got him through was certainly not Christianity, because he thought that's nothing but false hope.

• 52:18Josh Clark?

  Well, not only that, he shared the POW camp with people who clung to that and did not make it.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he saw it like right up front.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  So what got him through was his Stoic beliefs.

• 52:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was a huge, big time adherent of Epictetus. He'd studied him in college. Apparently, he'd read everything that Epictetus had written or said that had been written down and attributed to Epictetus twice from two different translators. So this guy knew his Epictetus. And he said, "Well, I'm a prisoner of war in Vietnam. I've got some broken bones. I'm starving. I'm being mistreated. I'll be here for seven years." What a perfect opportunity to put Epictetus's teachings to the test in a real-life laboratory experiment. And he said, "Epictetus passed with flying colors," was Stockdale's final report on it.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, he said, "If Epictetus's lecture room was a hospital, my prison was a laboratory, a laboratory of human behavior. I chose to test his postulates against the demanding real-life challenges of my laboratory." So, man, talk about a strong will, like, to be faced with that and be like, "Well, hey, this is a great chance to work on my philosophy of life."

• 53:33Josh Clark?

  Exactly. What else am I gonna do? But that follows in and of itself, on the whole, too, of turning adversity into a room for growth as well.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, man. Stronger than me. Let's just say that.

• 53:47Josh Clark?

  So, you wanna talk about some criticisms of Stoicism?

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Well, Cicero certainly thought it was a big downer.

• 53:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He said, well, you already said what he said, right?

• 53:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:59Josh Clark?

  It basically extinguishes enthusiasm in students. Not a good thing, right? And then, over the years, the fact that some of the great Stoic thinkers of all time have been super wealthy and powerful, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius was the emperor of Rome. He basically ran the free world. I don't know if the free world's right, the Western world for almost 20 years.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:22Josh Clark?

  And when you sit there, and, yeah, again, if you say, yes, you can turn anything into any adversity into an opportunity, if you're super wealthy, you don't have to worry about where your food's gonna come from, like, yes, of course, you can be a Stoic. And then Epictetus came along and, like we said, kind of erased all of that to an extent, for sure. But it is still kind of criticized as like a wealthy person's...

• 54:49Josh Clark?

  Philosophy, and it kind of smacks of that a little bit today, too, Chuck, with its huge resurgence in Silicon Valley.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  Oh, is that happening?

• 54:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Most of the Stoic revival is taking place there. That's where its cradle is right now.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  Oh, well, our own article has a couple of good points to talk about it

• 55:11Speaker 03

  not being as appealing because it lacks the mystique of Eastern practice. And then they also said this, "It's also regarded as a philosophy of merely breaking even while remaining determinedly impassive."

• 55:24Josh Clark?

  Yes. I don't know if that's entirely fair, but it's a, it's, it kind of catches it a little bit.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, because the very next sentence is, "This attitude ignores the promise proffered by Stoicism of lasting transcendence." And that one article that you sent talked about the power of indifference.

• 55:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Which I thought was interesting. It's not about just like not caring about anything. It's about caring about only the right things that you have the power to change.

• 55:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and also, though, I also see that even keel aspect, being indifferent, the power of it. I mean, think about how much time, whenever you are like super happy about something going right or super upset about something going wrong, you're, ultimately, you're being distracted from keeping on, keeping on.

• 56:15Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:15Josh Clark?

  And then you go back to, eventually get back to that middle again, which is the baseline, anyway. And so I guess what Stoics are doing is staying on that baseline and not being distracted so they can get further along faster or at a more steady pace.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, there's definitely something that's really frustrating in life, which is when you look back and say, "Man, I've spent two days..." Stressed and worried about something that I have no control over.

• 56:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  And what a waste of time that was, when I could have done X, Y, and Z.

• 56:51Josh Clark?

  One of the big questions I have, it's not necessarily a criticism, I guess it depends on what the answer would be. But my, my big question for Stoicism, since it's so, um, it places so much emphasis on the individual and self-exploration and introspection. How would a Stoic suggest enacting massive social change? Where something, some ill is happening to some large group of people. But nothing's going to change unless you go out of your own personal sphere and work to make others change.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 57:29Josh Clark?

  How do you do that? Do you just say, well, whatever, it's God's will that these people suffer and be put down by the majority forever? Or is there some way that that can be addressed through the Stoic, you know, philosophy? I'm very curious. So anybody who knows that, write in, please.

• 57:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe that's why it appeals to Silicon Valley.

• 57:51Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, that's the other thing too, right? So it also very much smacks, when, when you hear of it from like wealthy people espousing it to anybody. It smacks of that whole, uh, aspect of Christianity where, hey, medieval peasant. You know how your life is terrible and you're gonna live to 35 and all you do is work all the time? And you give most of the spoils of your effort to your king? Well, there's such a thing as Christianity and your treasure is in the afterlife. So don't worry about this life.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:24Josh Clark?

  It smacks of the same thing, where you can keep a population placated and not searching for larger social change. By saying, hey, just focus on these four things and everything else is just, it just happens and you don't need to get worked up about it at all. It seems like a, a bit of a pacifier too.

• 58:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:43Josh Clark?

  Depending on how you look at it.

• 58:46Josh Clark?

  It's, it's fascinating. Are we done with Stoicism?

• 58:49Speaker 03

  I'm finished with it.

• 58:50Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  I think that was a good overview.

• 58:54Josh Clark?

  I think so, too.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  It's a good thought starter.

• 58:56Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about Stoicism, bud, there's a lot more out there than this. Just dive in and see what it means to you. And again, it's a buffet. Take what you like, leave what you don't want. Leave the curdled pudding behind.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 59:11Josh Clark?

  Take the perfectly garliced green beans.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Yum.

• 59:16Josh Clark?

  If you, uh, what else did I, did I already say that one part? Oh, since I said green beans, it's time for listener mail.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Uh, I'm gonna call this Beagle Brigade slash Police Dogs.

• 59:30Josh Clark?

  People love that one.

• 59:32Speaker 03

  Man, who doesn't love beetles? Beagles on Brigade on Parade.

• 59:36Josh Clark?

  No one. Even people who get busted with whole pigs still are like, that beagle's adorable.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  So, uh, this dude, Eric Stover, is a sandwicher, meaning he follows our advice, which is to listen to the newest episode as well as whatever from our back catalog he chooses to.

• 59:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  He's doing it right.

• 59:56Josh Clark?

  Yes, yes.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Uh, hey, guys, I work in the sports and entertainment business in New York. And after 9/11, the use of bomb-sniffing dogs, mostly, uh, German Shepherds, became standard operating procedure for all events. A few hours prior to a concert one night, the K-9 units were sweeping all the backstage areas, and one of the bomb dogs hit on an employee locker. As you can imagine, it caused an immediate and serious response. A bomb squad was dispatched, and that portion of the arena was evacuated. Plans were even made to cancel the show. Uh, he doesn't say what show, which I was very curious about.

• 1:00:26Josh Clark?

  I'm going to say Three Doors Down.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  Okay. Uh, after some very tense moments, the police officers opened the locker. Those guys are super brave. Uh, thankfully, they didn't find a bomb, but did find drugs. An employee must have thought, uh, must have brought in an extra bump for the show.

• 1:00:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, it was definitely Three Doors Down.

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  Uh, you might be asking yourself, um, no, this wasn't the band's green room. This was an employee.

• 1:00:53Josh Clark?

  Oh, I know, I know. Three Doors Down, Three Doors Down's fans are among the most drug-addled of all music fans.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  Are they?

• 1:01:01Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  I thought that was the Juggalos.

• 1:01:03Josh Clark?

  No, they put the Juggalos to shame. Juggalos take time off once in a while, you know what I mean?

• 1:01:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true. Uh, you might be asking yourself, how does a bomb dog find drugs? As it turns out, the dog had failed out of drug school and was retrained as a bomb dog. Poor guy.

• 1:01:25Josh Clark?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  Isn't it?

• 1:01:27Josh Clark?

  Poor guy. Which one, the dog or the guy who just happened to run across the failed drug dog?

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  I guess everyone.

• 1:01:34Josh Clark?

  Who still remembered something.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  There are no winners here. Uh, I guess he didn't completely forget his drug training, though, and he set off a chain of events that scared the crap out of us. Uh, the story ends with the employee getting arrested. The show went on, and the fans, none the wiser. My guess is the dog was reassigned, uh, to, uh, crowd control.

• 1:01:51Josh Clark?

  Just barking at people?

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  I guess.

• 1:01:53Josh Clark?

  Get back in line.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  Uh, thanks for everything you guys do. Please let me know if you ever need anything in New York City. Uh, is that a hint? We don't do drugs, Eric.

• 1:02:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah. We're terrified of dogs.

• 1:02:05Speaker 03

  Uh, that is Eric Stover in New York, and I guess he's still in the sports and entertainment business.

• 1:02:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He's like, you need some sports? Come see me.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  I could use some sports.

• 1:02:17Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Eric. That was a pretty great story.

• 1:02:20Josh Clark?

  Right?

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:02:22Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us like Eric did, you can send us an email to [email protected].

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:02:48Josh Clark?

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• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.