Sixdegrees.com: A Social Media Origin Story

Before Facebook and MySpace, before even Friendster, there was SixDegrees. Dive in today to learn about the first social media site, that was a few years too early. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:20Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck, here's Jerry, and we're going to take a nice little stroll down internet memory lane around Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is something I had never heard of. Had you heard of this?

• 1:33Josh Clark?

  No, I ran up past Yumi and she was like, oh, man, yes, I think I've heard of it. And I don't know if she has or not.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Well, Yumi is an early adopter.

• 1:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she was definitely more internet-y than I was at that time.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So what we're talking about here is the first, what's regarded as the first social media website, the thing that started the degradation of all mankind. Way back in 1997, it was called sixdegrees.com, spelled out S I X degrees.com. It was founded by a guy named Andrew Weinreich. And for about three years in the late 90s, they were able to come online when not a ton of people were online and garner ultimately about three and a half million users, which pales in comparison to what we look at today, but for the time, wasn't too bad.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not too shabby. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to get them over the hump and give them staying power, but I think they were also a victim of timing, as we'll see.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  But yes, the deck was stacked against them and the fact that they were essentially very much ahead of their time. They were a social media site before there were enough people online, not just enough people to come and use your social media site. There was only something like, I mean, if they had three and a half million users, there's probably like 3.6 million users on all of the internet at the time. I don't know if that's a correct estimate, but something like 18% of households, according to the US Census, in 1997, when six degrees launched, only 18% had internet at home at the time.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a, it was a competing stat from Pew Research Center that said 36% did, but there was different methodologies and stuff. So let's just say, you know, somewhere in between those numbers, I bet it was more, more like 18. This was, you know, 97 was one, two, three, four, five years before Friendster launched. Friendster? That's hard to say for some reason. And but by that time, the percentage of people in 2002, that had flipped. It was more like 39% of people did not use the internet and 61% of people did. So it was right at that, you know, it was just terrible timing, right? There, the

• 3:57Speaker 02

  end of the 90s when the dot com bubble burst and just right on its heels, other sites came along that did far, far better.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And just one thing, I like that Pew data because it doesn't have like that small slice of like, don't know, not sure. It's either yes, I use it or I don't use it. It's a nice, solid survey.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 4:19Josh Clark?

  So yeah, so there's a lot of what ifs, could have been's kind of thing. And we'll get into those a little bit more, but there were more things that that six degrees was up against. Another really, really big one was the slow speed of internet.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  And, you know, today you might look back and think, well, we had no comparison back then. Didn't matter. It was so slow that it would make you angry waiting around for a song to download or a webpage to even load.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  There were transfer speeds using dial-up modems of 56 kilobytes per second. That was what you had to deal with, not a gig per second, a kilobyte times 56 per second. That was the transfer speed at the time and that was the maximum.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, we've laughed about it before, but just the days of, of just seeing a picture appear on the screen like three lines at a time, down, down, down. And you're just, I just want to know what this thing looks like. And if you wanted to know, you had to sit there for five minutes or whatever.

• 5:27Josh Clark?

  I mean, you had time to go make and eat toast while a picture was downloading.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I ate a lot of toast back then.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  So that was a, that was a big challenge for it too. And then one of the other problems too is we'll see is that people, I mean, if you have a social media site, it's kind of helpful to have pictures and they just weren't around at the time.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and we'll, we'll get to that, all the reasons why in a minute. But just to sort of, you know, locate it on the timeline. In 1997, when it launched, like google.com had just registered as a domain. So it wasn't even a real thing yet. The word weblog had just been coined, or, you know, what it would become is blog. And Netflix was sending DVDs through the mail. So

• 6:13Josh Clark?

  I remember that.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  It seems like a thousand years ago, but it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  No, and it's kind of sad that six degrees has kind of gotten lost to history. Most people think Friendster was the first social media site. No, six degrees was, and it wasn't even one of those things where it's technically the first social media site, even though it really was not, it didn't resemble social media at all. No, this was the first social media site and it essentially laid the groundwork for all the social media sites to come. It just was so far ahead of its time that it got lost to history.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Friendster ultimately got about 10 million, but they had a lot of technical problems, so they didn't last. MySpace was the next big one in 2003. They were the first to reach a million monthly active users, which was a big deal. Some people say that at one point, it was the most popular site in the United States.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  I believe that.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, even if only for a brief amount of time. But then in 2008, Facebook came along and sort of smashed everything. And just to put it perspective, three and a half million users for Six Degrees, Facebook has more than three billion users. And Blue Sky has 33 million, and that's looked at as like a tiny thing.

• 7:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it kind of puts their three and a half million users into perspective.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  So Six Degrees may sound familiar to people. It's actually very much related to the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, or Six Degrees of Separation, the play by John Guerre, and then later, the movie adaptation starring Stoker Channing, of course. But it's actually, I didn't realize this, based on a study that Stanley Milgram, of the very famous Milgram experiment, where he had people shock some unseen person in another room to find out just how obedient people were to authority, even against their own set of morals. You know that one, right?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:17Josh Clark?

  He also carried out a study where he was one of the first to kind of determine how far apart the average person was from the other, from anybody else in the world.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got together with another psych professor named Jeffrey Travers. And this is pretty cool. I think it was a pretty lo-fi way to do it. But this is, I mean, what year was this? Was this the 1950s?

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  No, it was the late 60s.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Late 60s, okay. But what they did was, they said, all right, let's get some people in Kansas. Let's get some people in Nebraska. They said, here's a folder, and it has a document with a target person that we want you to get this to them. But you can't just look them up and see if you can find their address and mail it to them. One of the people was in Cambridge, one was in Sharon, Massachusetts. And they said, what you want to do, or what we want you to do, rather, is send it to a person that you personally know, who you think might be able to get it to another person. Who could get it to another person who could eventually get it to this target person. And then we will measure that and see what the the average or the mean might

• 9:27Speaker 02

  be. So literally, a farmer in Kansas got it, you know, this is just one example, got it to the wife of a student in Massachusetts, who gave it to an Episcopalian minister in this town, who gave it to an instructor at the theological seminary there, who got it to that target. So that would be one, two, three, four degrees of separation, which is pretty remarkable, I think.

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I also think, Chuck, that it's kind of funny that to Stanley Milgram, Nebraska and Kansas are the most socially remote locations in all of the United States, because that's where he started, right? To see how long it took to get to, I guess, civilization like Boston. But they actually did a lot of analysis of this. They released a version of the study in Psychology Today, which was meant for a general audience. But then they did like the real deal in a journal called Sociometry in 1969. And they found that there was a mean length, mean is the one in the middle. No, mean is average. It's

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  another word for average. Just say average, you know, of 4.4 to 5.7 intermediaries. So they found that people have a degree of separation of 4.4 to 5.7. And this was all the way back in the mid to late 60s. Think about how closer we are now.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, what I wonder too is, did they throw out the ones, because apparently most of the folders never even made it. Did they just toss those and say, of the ones who got there, this is how they're connected?

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  Yes, but I believe that most of the ones that didn't get there were because the initial farmers in Kansas and Nebraska just threw them out. They didn't participate.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 11:12Josh Clark?

  I think that's what happened to the majority of them. So, yeah, it wasn't like the most robust study of all time, but it was so fascinating that it just captured the imagination of people and became kind of a pop cultural meme. But what's interesting about it is that later scholarship that was pretty robust studies, supported what Milgram and his collaborator Jeffrey Travers found in that study.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was one in 2003 that found a median of five to seven.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  This is pretty old data, but in 2011, they did the degrees of separation on other social media sites. And for Facebook at the time, it was 4.74. And for the, at the time named Twitter, it was 4.67. But the caveat there is like, you're not necessarily counting just the people that you know. Like, I know plenty of people when I was on Facebook that had lots of, like, what were they in Facebook? Friends? Yeah, friends who they, they had no idea who they were. It was just more of a, maybe a networking thing, kind of like LinkedIn?

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And as we'll see, six degrees too.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Laura, Dr. Claw, who helped us out with this, points out that social media kind of has a stretch. The definition of what we consider a connection, like you just said. And also, you said what used to be called Twitter. I think it's hilarious because very frequently you'll see Twitter used in like some sort of article or whatever. And then in parentheses after that, it'll say X.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, everyone still says Twitter, it seems like.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it just didn't take, like, sorry. The, the name change for the business you bought did not take.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's because X is dumb.

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  I guess so. Twitter was just so perfect, I guess.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I don't know if Twitter's a good name or not, but it had such recognition. It's just like, yeah.

• 13:08Josh Clark?

  It's like the people who bought the Sears Tower and tried to change the name. And everybody's like, nope, still Sears Tower, sorry.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that when a corporate sponsor takes over and they're like, no, we're still going to call it the thing it was before.

• 13:18Josh Clark?

  It's still the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl, sorry. Sorry, Cars.com.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Well, you mentioned Kevin Bacon, and we should mention real quick, the six degrees of Kevin Bacon was a very popular thing created by some college students where, and the idea is that Kevin Bacon has been in so many varied movies over the years that you can connect any actor in Hollywood to Kevin Bacon in less than, in six degrees or less. But the Bacon number apparently is 3.12 and there are 522 actors who have a smaller connectivity number or Bacon number than that.

• 13:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're, they're more connected to people than Kevin Bacon. I didn't know that, Chuck. Did you?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Well.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  There were 522 or that there were more connected actors?

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  Both.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I figured there were more connected actors because there were people, well, Eric Roberts is the number one with 2.90841 because he has 865 IMDB entries as an actor. So I figured there were people that were in way more movies and that's just math, you know?

• 14:27Josh Clark?

  Sure, it is, but also you can make a case that Kevin Bacon's 111 movies typically are with more stars who have more work. So there it's likelier that the people he worked with are in more movies with more other people. Whereas Eric Roberts is probably in movies with people like this is their one and only movie.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Or people who are in like 600 movies that you just have never heard of.

• 14:52Josh Clark?

  That's true, too. That's possible. If Riff Trek taught me anything, it's that. Like I, I know who Cameron Mitchell is for Pete's sake.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Who's that?

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  He's one of those guys who's in a million movies that you've never heard of.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  But you recognize his face?

• 15:06Josh Clark?

  Face, name. Yeah, I think I actually know some of his family members now.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Right. I'm gonna have to look this guy up.

• 15:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Oh, man. It will take you on an odyssey. And don't even bother watching the original version of the movies. Just watch the Riff Trek version of Cameron Mitchell's movies.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Uh, a rare in store or in show lookup Cameron Mitchell. Huh. Oh, no, he's a restaurateur.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  It's not him. Look up Cameron Mitchell's space mutiny.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that guy. Was he in Plan 9?

• 15:38Josh Clark?

  Maybe he really might have been.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Well, and now I'm seeing a picture of him as an older gentleman and I've seen him in movies as an older gentleman, too.

• 15:47Josh Clark?

  Speaking of space mutiny, that's a really great riff tracks to start with.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Those guys are the best.

• 15:52Josh Clark?

  And wait, actually, I think that's an MST 3K to start. Watch that. Watch both versions. How about that?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  All right. Well, that's what I meant, but yeah.

• 16:00Josh Clark?

  Okay. So do you want to take a break, Chuck?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's take a break and talk more about old internet right after this.

• 16:21Josh Clark?

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• 17:21Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 17:24Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 17:27Speaker 02

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• 17:51Josh Clark?

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• 18:14Josh Clark?

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• 18:18Speaker 05

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• 18:24Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. The holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family, like really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 18:35Josh Clark?

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• 19:39Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so we said we were going to take a stroll down internet memory lane. And this was a time when, like, I think the year before, Six Degrees launched, Craigslist launched, Amazon.com launched, and they were just selling books at the time.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:56Josh Clark?

  One of the big search engines was Ask Jeeves. And it was revolutionary because you could use natural language rather than have to figure out exactly what keyword you needed to put in to get results.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  Like with Lykos.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 20:11Josh Clark?

  Which, by the way, Ask Jeeves is Ask.com now. Did you know that?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Uh, I think I did know that. I knew it changed into something.

• 20:18Josh Clark?

  Well, it changed.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  They just got rid of Jeeves, which is super sad.

• 20:21Josh Clark?

  I know, it is pretty sad. They retired him. He went off to live on a farm, as they say.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Josh Clark?

  Which means they killed him.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  How Six Degrees work, though, is interesting because not only was it the name copped from Six Degrees of Separation, they actually organized the website in such a way. And it seemed like part of the fun of it, and again, this is early internet. If you're a youngster out there, you may think this is super funny that people thought this was fun. But it seems like part of the fun of SixDegrees.com was finding people you didn't know and then tracing that connection through the website.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  Right. So one of the things that you would do is go through the, I guess, the registry of other Six Degree users. And there were so few initially that you could do that, rather than go through three and a half million people. It was just a few hundred potentially. And you'd be like, oh, I know them. I know them. And you would make a connection with them. They would confirm it. And now you were a first-degree connection YouTuber because you actually know each other, right?

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you, like you said, you had to confirm that connection, but you could also include people who weren't on it yet. Like, I'm just gonna list out my family members or whatever and put their email addresses in. Keep in mind, this is at a time where you didn't get a lot of email. You didn't get much, if any, spam email. And sometimes getting an email was like, oh, wow, look at this. This is cool.

• 21:46Josh Clark?

  Squeeeet.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  So if you think about that now, like, oh, yeah, just put all your family and friends and put their emails in. That's like a fireable offense.

• 21:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Like socially.

• 21:55Josh Clark?

  Actually, you can go to jail.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  I think you can. But back then, it was a different deal. So you can include people, put their emails, and they would get an email asking for confirmation and saying, and also, do you want to sign up for this cool new thing?

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  No.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  So the people that knew the people you knew, but you weren't directly connected to them, you were now second-degree connected with them. And then those people were connected to people that you didn't know, and they were third-degree connections. I think it didn't go beyond third degree. Like, they didn't go all the way up to six. I think that was totally unnecessary. But this was like, yeah, this is very groundbreaking and revolutionary, and people were just amazed by people they knew. And the point was, like, who do your friends know that you want to know that you don't know yet? Now you can make a first-degree connection with those people if they confirm you.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's the way it was sort of like a predecessor to LinkedIn. I mean, you'll see, again, like you said, like seeds of all the social media websites. They were doing it because you could create a profile with your professional affiliations and stuff like that. You were encouraged and I think most people probably really did use their real identities because at the time, people were like, well, what kind of a weirdo would just create some fake identity on the internet just to mess with people? So there were real people on there. That was a member of the Trustee Data Privacy Program, which has now been bundled up under TrustARC. But email was very central to it all. It was not an app. They didn't have apps yet.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  You would get an email asking for confirmation. You would reply via email. You would add others via email. So it was just a different time.

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and there were, I mean, you would add your hobbies. You would add who you worked for, what degrees you had maybe. So yeah, again, lots of seeds of LinkedIn for sure. Again, no pictures, and this was a huge stumbling block, as we'll see. But they did have other functionality that was thrilling. It had basically in-network emailing, right? So you could directly contact your contacts had they confirmed you. There are bulletin boards where you could essentially chat. And I think they had a bunch of other kind of bells and whistles that they added over the years. They had something called channels, which were essentially special interest groups. And you could be like, oh, I'm interested in business and finance, or I'm interested

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  in games. I think, meaning at the time, nothing but Oregon Trail.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:31Josh Clark?

  And you could just go and find other people on these message boards that were interested in these things and maybe make some contacts if they confirmed you.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, way ahead of its time with Facebook groups. That's exactly what they did. We got some, and you can go look these up if you want to see like screenshots of what the screen looked like. I believe we were sent one from October 1999, a welcome scream. Scream, screen. And it was, it was cute. It looked like a, a fun website of the day. It had a service marketplace. There was daily trivia on the homepage. There was, this is hysterical. There was a daily poll and on that day in October 1999, this was the poll. When you get a chain letter from a friend, you A, immediately throw it away, B, do what it says ASAP, C, hold on to it for a while and then lose it.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  So it's clearly they weren't like super future facing. If they were like chain letters, that's relatable, right?

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  I found one also Chuck from February 29th, 2000. So that was a leap year. It was the, the question of the day was Bill and Monica. And then your, your choices were love, lust, and as long as it's not Hillary.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  That was the question of the day.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  That's pretty funny. Um, by that time, six or eight months after the October one that was sent, um, and probably in the February, uh, one that you saw, they were, there were little nuggets of engagement boosting that they were trying to use like, hey, here's some content. Here's some, like join this Mother's Day group, or we're going to spotlight this channel. They had, it was, they would tell how many people were online at that moment, which, uh, in the October 1999, it was, uh, 510 people. Which sounds very funny, but I distinctly remember being in like chat rooms where they would say like, like 300 people are in there and I would, it would blow my mind.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  That there were that many?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. It just seemed like, oh my God, dude, I'm in my living room in New Jersey and I'm on this computer and there are 300 people around the world that I can talk to right now.

• 26:39Josh Clark?

  That's neat. And what did you say?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  That, well, I did have one specific interaction with, uh, someone, of course, at the time I thought it was a real girl about our love of Cat Stevens. And we had a real back and forth going and a lot in common. And I'm sure that was probably a nine-year-old boy.

• 26:57Josh Clark?

  You got catfished over Cat Stevens.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  I might have, who knows, but I remember thinking like, hey, man, this girl sounds super cool. And there are no pictures, so I bet, you know, she's cute as far as I know.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Well, a nine-year-old boy who's into Cat Stevens is probably pretty cool, too.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that probably would have been a better online friend to chat about real music.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:18Josh Clark?

  Another thing I saw on that February 2000 page was the theme of the week. And this theme was to thine own self improve. So there was like, you could click on to Zen Practice Group.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Self-help.

• 27:31Josh Clark?

  Feng Shui, Reiki, there was a book club. They were just throwing everything they could.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:39Josh Clark?

  At this to just get people to interact more and more and more because

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  the more engaged you were, the more likely you were to send out those emails to your friends and be like, hey, join me on here. It's pretty awesome.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  So maybe let's talk about pictures real quick and then we'll take a break because the lack of pictures is the big deal, especially when you look at the modern internet. A website with just text and maybe, you know, clip art and stuff like that isn't super engaging, obviously. So the reason why they didn't have pictures is because there was no way to get pictures there, you know, there weren't digital cameras. The, there was the Apple Quick Take 100 that was released a few years before. If you look up pictures of this, it's about the size of a sandwich, kind of funny looking. It was the first digital camera. It costs 750 bucks. The Canon Powershot was the first digital camera that could write images to a hard disk.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  That was released, kind of one, yeah, one year before.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Six Degrees came online in 1996. That was almost $1,000. Had 176 megs of storage. But the first camera phone didn't come along until 99 and that was Kaiocera Visual Phone VP210.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was actually cheap considering it's 634 bucks in today's dollars for a camera phone. It was a 0.11 megapixel camera. For comparison, the iPhone 16 has as much as 48 megapixels.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  But if you look up some of like the promotional images of this, there's like like Japanese women holding the phone that's showing a picture of themselves. You can clearly see who it is. Yes, that's another word for it. I'm using 1997 terminology though. They like, you can see, you can tell it's them. I think one version of it is in color. It's not that bad, especially for 650 bucks. Yeah, you don't have to like, like squint your eyes to make the pixels come together. And you're like, is that Popeye? It's like, you can tell it's them, I guess. Yeah, I was impressed by it.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  So it did its most basic function as an image capturing device.

• 29:58Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Being able to tell it was that thing.

• 30:00Josh Clark?

  Right. Oh, one other thing I saw about the Apple Quick Take 100. At its highest resolution, it could store up to eight photos at once.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 30:11Josh Clark?

  This is so much fun. I love making fun of the early internet.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  I know, that we lived through. This is also a true story. Weinreich, the founder, would get emails where people would say, "Hey, can I snail mail you a physical photo? I have it. Can you, can I send it to you via the US Postal Service? And can you scan it and attach it to my profile? Because you really need pictures on this thing."

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  Right. And they were like, "Maybe." And then somebody around the table at the bowl session said, "Well, wait, what if people want to start like updating or changing their photos?" And Andrew Wein, I think it's Weinreich maybe, said, "Yeah, let's just skip that."

• 30:52Speaker 02

  All right.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  Okay. No, no, I'm saying Weinreich said that, not us.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  Well, there's like a rare in-show edit that didn't get edited on purpose.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Should we take that break now?

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  I feel like we need to, yes.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  All right, I'm gonna go do 20 pushups for that and I'll be right back.

• 31:24Josh Clark?

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• 31:34Speaker 02

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• 31:46Josh Clark?

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• 32:02Speaker 02

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• 32:27Josh Clark?

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• 32:45Speaker 02

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• 33:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury, quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  All right, so Weinreich, it's Weinreich?

• 33:52Josh Clark?

  Wine, Wine Rich, I think.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Wine Rich?

• 33:56Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how, um, I think it was Wikipedia that had the pronunciation. And I think it said Wine Rich.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Okay, all right. Maybe he was trying to seem less German.

• 34:07Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, that always reminds me of, um, that part in 30 Rock where, um, Tina Fey is like, well, she's apologizing and she said, I'm very sorry, like Mr. Wiener Slav. And he said, it's Wiener Slave.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  That's such a good joke.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Have you ever seen Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt? Have you seen that yet?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Uh, I watched it when it, I mean, when it came out years ago, I watched the first like season or so.

• 34:38Josh Clark?

  There aren't that many shows that can make me actually laugh out loud, and that's one of them. And it's because Tina Fey is one of the, the best comedy writers to ever live.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed. Uh, I don't, have you seen the four seasons yet?

• 34:52Josh Clark?

  No, I'm avoiding it. I saw that it's a remake of an Alan Alda film, and I have a strict policy not to watch late seventies, early, early eighties Alan Alda films or their remakes.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Oh, God. Your distaste for Alan Alda is truly disturbing.

• 35:06Josh Clark?

  The thing is, I've got nothing against Alan Alda. Um, personally, it's those kind of movies. Same with Elliot Gould. I can't stand those kind of movies, like where it's just like, like, hey, I can't even do an impression of it, but I can't stand those kind of movies. And, and somebody out there knows what I'm talking about.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Elliot Gould kind of movies?

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  Yes, whether it's Capricorn One or that Shaggy Dog movie that he's in, um, where he plays the detective.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Uh, I will say that one movie I think you would like is The Long Goodbye.

• 35:43Josh Clark?

  That's the one I'm talking about. That's the Shaggy Dog Detective one. I don't think I would.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  What does Shaggy Dog Detective mean? I don't understand what that means.

• 35:51Josh Clark?

  So Shaggy Dog is where like, there's this whole buildup of like, say a mystery or something and it turns out to be nothing. Like, there's really no point to the movie in the end.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Wow, I thought you would like The Long Goodbye. Great Robert Altman noir to me.

• 36:06Josh Clark?

  And I like Robert Altman's stuff, too.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Raymond Chandler book? No? Still nothing, huh?

• 36:10Josh Clark?

  I wouldn't, if you made it, no, I can't make, if you made it before Elliot Gould was in it, I would probably watch it.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  All right, fair enough. Um.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  Wait, one more thing.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:21Josh Clark?

  Speaking of great directors, I finally saw Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai by Jim Jarmusch. Did you see that ever?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  I saw that in the theater, buddy.

• 36:29Josh Clark?

  I was guessing that you had. That is such a good movie, man. I can't believe that slipped under my radar. Cause that totally was in my wheelhouse for that, that time.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Jarmusch is the best. And Forest Whitaker was so good in that.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  Yes, he was.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Good music, too.

• 36:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  All right. Uh, where, how did that start? Weinreich trying to seamless German? This is the six degrees of that conversation, I guess.

• 36:49Josh Clark?

  Mr. Wiener Slave.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, Wiener Slave. So here's what, uh, Wine Rich, I guess, said.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Wait, there's one other thing that reminds me of, too. Do you remember we were talking about the vanity license plate episode?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Uh huh.

• 37:01Josh Clark?

  Um, and like the greatest misconstrued vanity plate of all time is where the guy had Jay is Lord. Like Jesus is Lord, but it's all one word, so it says Jizz Lord.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Jizz Lord.

• 37:16Josh Clark?

  That's the greatest vanity plate anyone's ever had.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Oh, that definitely beats Ass Man even.

• 37:23Josh Clark?

  I think so, too. Which is a good one.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's really funny.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  Jizz Lord.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  Especially taking it in the context.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, fuck who that guy was.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  To be that, you know, dedicated of a Christian to do that on your license plate. And that's what you end up with.

• 37:42Josh Clark?

  Rolling up to church with Jizzlord on your car.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Man.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  I think you can make a movie about that.

• 37:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you could, with starring Elliot Gould as the Jizzlord.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  So Wine Rich said, and this is a quote that just kind of shows how far ahead of his time he was. His vision, it is abundantly clear to me that the world will index all of their relations, everyone's relationship in a single database. And that was like before anyone else is doing it. So they started off this thing as a, just with a launch, like a physical launch event, a party in New York City. They had 200 invited guests and those were the first 200 members. And they were like, now you all go out and, and make this a thing by inviting your friends. So I'm curious like who those 200 people were. It's a pretty interesting way to start a site like this.

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  I think there were a lot of tech savvy people who were kind of like.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 38:37Josh Clark?

  Prime to, to take part in this to begin with. And I think at first they were adding like 50 new users a day.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 38:45Josh Clark?

  Which again, that's really small. And I think even for the time, this was pretty small, but they're doing this through like email and stuff. You know, like it's, it's really, it's a weird transfer from online world to real world. It's straddled both because it had to. Another good example of that is that they would use reps to go to campus to sign people up. Just like that same credit card model that, that credit card companies use to screw college kids' parents out of a thousand dollars.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember I had the Amex College Card. And the only reason I got it, I didn't even really want or need a credit card, but you got three Delta Flight vouchers.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  When you signed up for that card. So I got three plane flights.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  So where'd you go?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I don't remember. Well, I do remember because I know I went to LA for the first time to visit my brother when he lived there.

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  When I was in college.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  Did you go visit the six or nine year old Cat Stevens fan?

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I did, and that was a 75 year old woman.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  Wow. Man, that story goes all over the place.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  It took quite a weird turn, but we're still good friends. She's still around with us. She's 102.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  That's cool, man. Does she listen to the podcast or is she like, no?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Only Cat Stevens, all the time.

• 40:06Josh Clark?

  That would get kind of old, I think.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  So let's talk about the end of this thing because as we all know, it's not still around. Although Dr. Claw said if you went there, it had a homepage. I went there and I got a error.

• 40:19Josh Clark?

  Gateway timeout, the old 504, same here.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  The old 504.

• 40:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, but it's there. It's if it weren't a domain that was active, it would come back as like, hey, you want to buy this domain? But it doesn't do that. It just is so slow that you can't connect to it, but it does seem to be there. Sixdegrees.com, sure.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, considering the, the public knowledge of just that term, it's like you try go to, try and go on out these days and get in a better domain name, you know?

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  You can't do it.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  You just can't. Uh, don't feel too bad for Wine Rich or Reich or Rick, because he sold, uh, in 1999 for 120, 125 million in stock options in youth stream media networks. But this, you know, you know, if you know anything about internet history, you know that this thing shut down in 99 and what that meant, that dot com bubble right there on the horizon in 2000 shut down more websites than you could shake a stick at.

• 41:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And actually you can feel pretty bad for Wine Rich because he took that $125 million in stock in a company that folded like months later because it was debt financed. So I don't know how much he actually walked away with, especially if there was possibly a blackout in him selling those stock options.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Oh, so yeah, what you're saying is Youth Stream itself also went under.

• 41:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they were just borrowing, borrowing, borrowing, and that's how they existed. And then when the, when the dot com bubble burst, they were worth nothing. And so that stock was worth nothing. I, I looked, I couldn't find how much he actually did make from that sale, like in real dollars.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  You can never find that out.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  No, and that usually means that it's not a very good amount.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  They like to leak that stuff when it's like eye popping, but when it's not, they're like, oh, I don't remember.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point. The other problem was it was very early in the internet and that monetization was a real struggle. They had some ads, of course. I believe their question of the day had an actual sponsor. But it was just a little bit too early. Like, right after they fell off, Friendster came along. That also failed again. But then MySpace and Facebook, just, just on the heels of this. He did make some other dough off of it. I think the patent that he had with six degrees for the software for the platform, he sold for 700,000 real dollars to the CEO of LinkedIn.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  And the CEO, Mark Pincus of a website called Tribe, and they were both Friendster investors.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and Reid Hoffman, and he said that he and Mark Pincus were like essentially fans. Like, they were like, Weinreich is a god here. He, he, this patent not only is for the software, it's for the methodology of creating an online social network. No one had ever come up with something like that before. So they actually kind of bought it for a song. I looked and LinkedIn is apparently definitively not built on six degrees architecture, or, and it never was. But it almost seems like they were either taking it to learn from it or almost like they were buying like some memorabilia that they were like fans of. I almost got that impression from an interview with Reid Hoffman.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Oh, very interesting. He, Andrew Weinreich went on to do, you know, a lot of more things like this. He's kind of a serial entrepreneur. And again, it seems like he was always. Uh, right there before the real thing came along, uh, because he had something called, uh, Meet Moi, as in M O I, uh, French for me, right?

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I thought so. I was just making sure. Uh, but that was a location-based dating app. And it was basically this idea that like, hey, dating app or dating websites are really tough, even at the time of the early internet and like, let's at least connect people who are physically close and it might be easier to get real dates. Uh, the dating part of that business was bought by the parent company of match.com. Once again, just right there next to the thing. Uh, and he and his Mee Moi co-founder bought out the business analytics part of their own company and use it to found a data analytics company called indicative.

• 44:40Josh Clark?

  Which is still around from what I can tell and.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  All right. So maybe he's done all right there.

• 44:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so this was, I mean, this was very early 2000s too. And they were like, they were using like location tracking data, um, at the time, and that was huge and new. And so they kept that. I think they ended up either selling it or licensing it to a company called Xify. Not a very good name. They should call it Twitterify.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they had some like high-profile clients. They had Ritz Carlton. They had Staples. They had Sephora, Publishers Clearinghouse.

• 45:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So they were, but they were using those location apps to advertise to you and send you push notifications on your phone, which sadly means that Andrew Weinrich is going to be going to hell for that.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  I mean, did he create that idea? I wonder?

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  He's, he, he gave, or he sold Xify the, the, the ability to do that. So.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  And then IBM bought them, right?

• 45:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So I'm not sure how much he made from these buyouts. I hope a lot because again, this guy is like coming up with ideas and making stuff happen long before they can become viable. And a lot of people probably have gotten very rich off the back of his ideas too. So I hope he's doing well.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Maybe if he's listening, or if someone knows him through their degrees of connectivity, just get to him and have him email us at [email protected] and just send us your bank statement.

• 46:05Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  So we'll know.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  I want to specify, by doing well, I don't mean just financially. I mean, I hope his well-being, his sense of well-being is nice and inflated and happy. And, you know, that he's, he's living a good life.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  No, I agree. I cheapened it by making it financial, and that's why you're the heart of the show.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's me. I'm the one you're not supposed to touch, remember?

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Oh, well, you know what I mean.

• 46:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, one thing that I did see that he's doing now is a podcast called Predicting Our Future. It's about what life is going to be like in the fairly near future. It's pretty cool.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Fantastic.

• 46:40Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, I think there's, that's it for sixdegrees.com. We got 40 minutes out of it.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Hey, not bad. Lots of fun stories in the in-between.

• 46:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And what did you just say? In-between, right?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  Well, then that means it's time for listener mail.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Boy, I'm glad I always know the trigger word.

• 47:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's, it's amazing. You never fail each episode.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Go me. Hey, guys, I'm a 40-something man with autism who lives on his own, and the need for impression management hit close home. So this was, I remember about, we even speculated about impression management, that we might hear from some people with autism.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  This was a great email.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  It's a great, this is a Josh Curated email. "I simply cannot match the body language of others and have to fake it. I don't instinctively smile or look angry. People say I have an almost disturbing calm demeanor. Being calm sounds great, but it has gotten me searched for additional screening at 20 airports and even strip-searched at one. When people grill you for questioning, a straight answer without fear frustrates the hell out of people whose job it is to make you feel uncomfortable. To help mask my autism, I wear sunglasses to hide my eyes, and because of that, I've gotten the nickname Terminator. A flat affect, direct language doesn't help either. Discrimination is very real, guys, but I like to say, getting angry at a person with

• 48:03Speaker 02

  autism who doesn't adhere to societal norms is like getting angry at a person with one leg that doesn't run marathons." Hopefully, people who listen will give people with a bit of a quirk some slack. Thanks from a longtime listener. That is Matt.

• 48:17Josh Clark?

  I'm glad Matt wrote that one in. That was a good, good email. And I think he probably speaks for a lot of people in that situation.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Totally. A good reminder to everybody and something that like we talked about on that episode, as we've gotten older, we try to sort of think about not just that, but what everyone's going through in their life. And maybe they're not having their best day when you meet them, you know?

• 48:38Josh Clark?

  Yep. Too true, Chuck. Too true. If you want to be like Matt and send us a world-class email, we would love that. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordibility. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 49:39Speaker 06

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• 49:55Speaker 07

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• 50:40Speaker 07

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• 51:02Speaker 06

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• 51:09Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Efgartigimod alfa F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.