Pod Insights Stuff You Should Know SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: The True Story of BlacKkKlansman About this episode In 2018, director Spike Lee brought the story of Ron Stallworth to the big screen to great effect. Today, Josh and Chuck discuss the true story behind the Oscar nominated film.
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1:09 Speaker 02 Hey everybody and welcome to the Summer Movie Playlist, the place where we group some fun movie content because of summer movie season. We thought you might like this, so we gave it a shot and today you're going to be listening to the replay of our episode on Black Klansman, the true story behind that movie. It was a great movie, love it, love Spike Lee, and this is a great one, so I hope you enjoy the show.
1:36 Speaker 03 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.
1:46 Josh Clark? Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles Bryant, there's Jerry over there. You put the three of us together, it's movie crush. I mean, stuff you should know.
1:59 Speaker 02 This does have some stank on it, doesn't it? It's a movie stank.
2:03 Josh Clark? Uh huh. I know your game. It's cool.
2:05 Speaker 02 Uh, I didn't even ask you, have you seen Black Klansman?
2:09 Josh Clark? I, I was like, I can't, I can't do this episode without having seen it. So I watched it last night.
2:14 Speaker 02 Oh, nice.
2:15 Josh Clark? Yeah.
2:15 Speaker 02 Good, huh?
2:17 Josh Clark? Yeah, it's pretty good.
2:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:18 Josh Clark? I like, uh, I like his choice at the end, like to completely pull a somersault on the viewer.
2:24 Speaker 02 Oh, sure. With that last bit?
2:26 Josh Clark? Yeah, like spoiler alert.
2:27 Speaker 02 Pretty powerful.
2:28 Josh Clark? There's an end to the movie. Yeah, for sure. We should probably say that out of the gate. If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first.
2:36 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:37 Josh Clark? But, um, yeah, the, I guess now that we've said that, we can speak freely, right?
2:41 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:41 Josh Clark? So, um, the, if, if the entire movie was basically to disarm you up to the end, then I, I think it's one of the greatest movies I've ever seen in my life. And even if it wasn't, that wasn't the entire point of the movie. It was still, it was still great in, and how he pulled it out at the end, I think.
3:02 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, this was, I don't know if you remember, but this is the movie I saw in Perth, Australia.
3:07 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah.
3:08 Speaker 02 That happens at the end, that big, uh, you know, sort of gut punch.
3:13 Josh Clark? Yeah.
3:13 Speaker 02 Of realism at the end. And, uh, I stood up and I was like, hmm, like, I wonder what they, they're thinking here in Perth.
3:21 Josh Clark? They're probably thinking, what just happened? What's wrong with America?
3:25 Speaker 02 Yeah. And I'm going, aye, mate. Uh, good to see ya. I'm not American.
3:31 Josh Clark? I'm Canadian. Can't you tell, bloke?
3:37 Speaker 02 Oh goodness. Uh, yeah, it was, it was one of those things where I was like, I'm kind of slightly embarrassed right now.
3:42 Josh Clark? Yeah. It was like that.
3:44 Speaker 02 I enjoyed the movie though. I thought to see Spike Lee, who, um, just, he's one of my favorite filmmakers in his sixties, still just bringing the juice like this. I loved it.
3:54 Josh Clark? Yeah. I also loved that it was controversial too, um, in that like, some people criticized Spike Lee for like, not going far enough for maybe kind of, um, glossing over some of the ugly aspects of the, the story.
4:08 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, you want to get to that at the end, maybe?
4:10 Josh Clark? Yeah, yeah, for sure. But we'll, we'll give it a pre-mention shout out, which is what we just did.
4:17 Speaker 02 Right, so we are talking about the, uh, the true story of the film Black Klansman, Spike Lee's movie that won the grand prize at the Cannes Film Festival.
4:27 Josh Clark? Mm-hmm.
4:28 Speaker 02 It's nominated for Academy Awards.
4:32 Josh Clark? Yeah, three Oscars, I believe, for, including Best Picture.
4:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think Picture Director and...
4:37 Josh Clark? Supporting Actor.
4:39 Speaker 02 Uh, for who?
4:40 Josh Clark? I would guess Adam Driver. I didn't see.
4:42 Speaker 02 Really?
4:43 Josh Clark? Yeah, I was surprised because Denzel's son did a wonderful job as well.
4:48 Speaker 02 He loves, he loves that, being known as that.
4:50 Josh Clark? Right. I can't remember his first name, but you know, Denzel's son. He, uh, he was, um, like, there were several times when he was talking and I was like, oh, you're definitely Denzel Washington's son, man. Just the, the way he talked, the, um, the sound of his voice, but also his acting, too. He's a good actor.
5:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, so, all right, Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Adam Driver, uh, Best Director and Best Original Music Score.
5:16 Josh Clark? Oh, nice.
5:17 Speaker 02 Uh, but yeah, he is, uh, I didn't know he was Denzel's son till after the movie.
5:23 Josh Clark? Yeah, I could see that.
5:24 Speaker 02 And he was a football player. Did you know that?
5:27 Josh Clark? I didn't. Who'd he play for?
5:28 Speaker 02 He played for Morehouse here in Atlanta. He was a running back. And then played NFL in the practice squad for the Rams.
5:35 Josh Clark? Uh-huh.
5:36 Speaker 02 And then eventually played a few years in NFL Europe and the UFL until he hung up his cleats six years ago.
5:43 Josh Clark? Oh, that's cool.
5:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:45 Josh Clark? Playing football in Europe has gotta be a surreal experience. You know?
5:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, 'cause it's a soccer ball.
5:51 Josh Clark? Then everyone's like, what are you doing? This is all wrong.
5:56 Speaker 02 All right, so should we way back it to the 1970s, the groovy 70s of Denver, Colorado?
6:01 Josh Clark? First, first we should say, his name is John David Washington.
6:04 Speaker 02 Oh, sure, you were kidding around.
6:05 Josh Clark? Not just Denzel's son, yes.
6:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:07 Josh Clark? So, yeah, let's get in the wayback machine and see, uh, go inspect their terrible, low-quality pot.
6:20 Speaker 02 So Ron Stallworth is the true to life character's name, who, there was a football player growing, when we were growing up, named John Stallworth. So I'm always wanting to say John Stallworth.
6:30 Josh Clark? This is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stallworth.
6:33 Speaker 02 That's right. And he had a few designations that are pretty important. He was the first African-American police officer to work for the Colorado Springs Police Department, which he joined as a cadet at the age of 19.
6:46 Josh Clark? Yeah.
6:47 Speaker 02 In 72. And then a couple of years later, on his 21st birthday, on his 21st birthday?
6:53 Josh Clark? That's what I saw. Yeah, June 18th, I believe.
6:56 Speaker 02 Nice. Was sworn in as a full-on officer of the law.
6:59 Josh Clark? Right. And I'm not sure if like, they just swear you in on your 21st birthday, or if it just so happened that the swearing-in ceremony was on his 21st birthday. But regardless, it was a big deal. He's the first African-American cop, and then later on detective for Colorado Springs. So that's, that's a big deal, especially starting out at age 21, too. That takes a lot of cojones, as they call it in Colorado.
7:21 Speaker 02 No, I think they call those Rocky Mountain oysters.
7:24 Josh Clark? That's right. That is what they call them, for sure.
7:28 Speaker 02 So he worked undercover for about 30 years. Long, great careers in undercover detective. But it was this case, which only came out about four years ago, when he wrote a book about it, about his career, when he went undercover as a, well, as a Klansman, but it's a little more complicated than that.
7:50 Josh Clark? It is a, it was a very complicated operation, right?
7:55 Speaker 02 Yeah. And this wasn't something that like, I mean, he even says in this NPR interview that he didn't, it was just a job at that particular point in time. And when that particular job ended, that is the undercover stint, which was about, what, eight or nine months, and moved on to something else. And it just happened by circumstance. So he didn't come in there. With a bone to pick with the Klan, aside from probably every bone to pick that he had with the Klan.
8:22 Josh Clark? Right.
8:23 Speaker 02 Just as a black man in America.
8:25 Josh Clark? Yeah, and it would probably help to give a little background on the Klan at the time, because, you know, the Klan was very well-known for being really big and really violent at, over three waves is basically how the Klan history is divided.
8:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:40 Josh Clark? Like, the first wave was when they were founded in the wake of the Civil War. Then they had a, the second wave came around the 19-teens, like 1950, 15, I mean, that era. And then, they had another big resurgence during the Civil Rights Era in the 50s and 60s. But, you know, in between these waves and after that third wave, it's not like the Klan just went away. They just, they kept on going, their profile was lower, and maybe their, the public violence or terrorism that they were engaging in wasn't quite as pronounced, but they were still there.
9:19 Josh Clark? And in Colorado in particular, they had a really long history with the Klan, where basically the city of Denver was in the, under the control of the Klan back in the 20s, just, you know, 50 years before Ron Stallworth started working there.
9:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was, he got, when he, when he got hired there, he got access to files, like secret FBI files.
9:42 Josh Clark? Right.
9:43 Speaker 02 And he got to go in and dig in and look at the history of the Klan in Colorado, and, boy, like, you ain't kidding, they were in the House of Representatives, there were senators.
9:55 Josh Clark? Both senators were Klan's members.
9:57 Speaker 02 The mayor, Benjamin Stapleton, who the airport was named after until 95.
10:02 Josh Clark? Yeah, his great-grandson ran for governor on the GOP ticket this past election, and lost to, who is Colorado's first-ever openly gay Jewish governor.
10:16 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
10:17 Josh Clark? Mm-hmm.
10:18 Speaker 02 Colorado's a weird state.
10:19 Josh Clark? It is an odd state, for sure.
10:21 Speaker 02 You got a lot of different ideologies all packed in together.
10:24 Josh Clark? It's very purple in all sorts of ways.
10:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, so Mayor Benjamin Stapleton was a Klan member, the governor, Clarence Morley was a Klan member. The chief of police, which is, I mean, you don't want anyone in these positions to be Klan members, but I imagine the chief of police is one of the more problematic areas to have a person in that kind of control.
10:46 Josh Clark? Particularly that one, too. He was basically, he was picked by the Klan, the Colorado Klan, and basically foisted on Benjamin Stapleton, who was even like, wow, this guy's even too much for my tastes, and eventually fired him. But like, the Klan picked the chief of police of Denver, Colorado, back in the 20s.
11:10 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. And they tried to recall Stapleton at one point. It didn't work. And when that effort failed, the Klan burned across on the top of Table Mountain as a celebration, a show of public celebration.
11:22 Josh Clark? Right. So, the Klan has deep roots in the old story in Colorado, or at least they used to. And they were still very much around when Ron Stallworth started his investigation, or started as the first black detective in Colorado Springs, right?
11:43 Speaker 02 That's right.
11:44 Josh Clark? And so, he started out, I guess, as kind of plainclothes and was assigned undercover work pretty quickly, just by his, just by being the only African-American officer in the police force, because Stokely Carmichael came to town once.
12:02 Speaker 02 That's right. And this is in the film. We're going to talk about a few differences between the movie and the real story. But he did, in fact, go to a speech and a rally by famous Black Panther, Stokely Carmichael. And he was, you know, fully kitted out in his bell bottoms and his, wearing a wire. He picked his Afro out. And he, in fact, did make a point to meet him, just like he did in the film. And Carmichael did apparently say, "Arm yourself and get ready, because the revolution is coming." And I imagine Stallworth had some mixed feelings about that assignment.
12:42 Josh Clark? Yeah, I would guess so. It's kind of like, I don't really have any idea of what he personally was like because the movie mixed things up so much and like added layers that weren't necessarily there. So I have no idea what that experience would have been like for him, you know?
12:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, one thing we do know is not true is the character in the film of Patrice, whom he meets at that rally, a young woman that he falls in love with. She was made up for the movie. Spike Lee wanted a love interest, basically, and to represent sort of the female black power movement as a whole.
13:17 Josh Clark? Right.
13:18 Speaker 02 So she was completely made up, but she was terrific in the film.
13:21 Josh Clark? Yeah.
13:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, Laura Harrier, she's in the new Spider-Man movies, too. She's awesome.
13:26 Josh Clark? Cool. The new Spider-verse movie?
13:28 Speaker 02 No, no, no, that's animated.
13:30 Josh Clark? Oh, okay.
13:31 Speaker 02 Well, she could have been a voice actor, I guess.
13:32 Josh Clark? Right, yeah.
13:33 Speaker 02 No, she's in the one, the new ones with the new kid.
13:38 Josh Clark? Okay.
13:38 Speaker 02 The new Spidey Kid.
13:39 Josh Clark? The current Spider-Man.
13:41 Speaker 02 Current Spider-Man, which is great. Those are good movies.
13:43 Josh Clark? I haven't seen any of them.
13:45 Speaker 02 You're not super into that stuff, though, are you?
13:47 Josh Clark? Well, I saw the Infinity War one. He was in that, I think.
13:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:51 Josh Clark? He's a bit of a smart aleck, frankly.
13:53 Speaker 02 He is.
13:57 Speaker 02 So, okay, he does his research on the deep roots of the Klan in Colorado. He goes undercover. And then, I don't think he was even assigned this thing. I think he kind of came up with it on his own, by chance, almost. In October 1978, he was 25 at this point, and he was looking through the local paper.
14:19 Josh Clark? Well, that was part of his assignment, to gather intelligence by reading the paper.
14:22 Speaker 02 Well, right, but I don't think, I think this was his idea to go undercover like this.
14:27 Josh Clark? That's the impression I have, too.
14:28 Speaker 02 He seemed like a self-starter, in a lot of ways. So he found this ad, a classified ad in the paper for the Klan, said, "Get in touch if you want further information." He sent a letter posing as a white racist to a P.O. box, just thinking that he would just get back some pamphlets or something. So he signed his real name, which is, he didn't really think that one through.
14:55 Josh Clark? No, he didn't. And he didn't, he never really fully explained it, aside from the best explanation I saw is that he didn't think anything was going to come of it. He thought he'd get, like you said, a couple of pamphlets and that would be that. And he just wasn't planning to, to create like a, a large investigation out of making contact through this, this ad. And, and again, we should probably state this, it was an ad in the paper for the client to get in touch with the client, to get more info about the client, and maybe you might want to join, who knows?
15:27 Speaker 02 Right.
15:29 Josh Clark? So, so he, he makes contact with them by sending off a letter. And if you ask me, if, if, if Spike Lee were directing this episode, he would put an ad break right here.
15:42 Speaker 02 That was good.
15:43 Josh Clark? Who are we to disagree?
15:44 Speaker 02 All right, we'll be right back.
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18:11 Speaker 04 First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?
18:14 Josh Clark? Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.
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19:23 Josh Clark? Okay, so like we said, Ron Stallworth is thumbing through the newspaper. He mails off a letter to get more info about the Klan. And he uses his real name. And like you said Chuck, he was expecting like a pamphlet or something in return. Like, "So you want to be a Klan member?" or something like that.
19:42 Speaker 02 Right.
19:43 Josh Clark? Instead, about two weeks later, he got a call from the number. So he used everything, as far as the undercover operation would go. He used all of his undercover info, except for his name. So he got a call on his undercover phone line from a guy named Ken Odell. And he was pretty surprised to get this call, because again, he was expecting a pamphlet. And instead, he had a real, live, living, breathing Ku Klux Klansman on the other end of the line, saying, "Hey, I got your letter about hating black people and other minorities. Let's talk."
20:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was like, "Why are you interested?" And Stallworth immediately just kind of goes into character. And I guess that's what you, you know, when you're undercover, you've got to be a part improv actor.
20:30 Josh Clark? Right.
20:31 Speaker 02 To be able to pull that off.
20:32 Josh Clark? Well, he also, he said he drew from his own personal experiences, because he grew up in El Paso and encountered a lot of racism there. And I'm sure on the force in Colorado Springs, too. So he drew from his own experience as well.
20:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, so he basically, right out of the gate, says, "Well, you know, my sister's dating a black man, and every time he puts his hands on her, on her pure white body, I cringe, and I want to do something about it." And Ken Odell says, "You sound like a great guy. Why don't you come on down and let's meet? Because you are just the kind of dude we're looking for."
21:11 Josh Clark? You sound like real Klan material.
21:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, I thought about maybe doing an episode on the Klan.
21:16 Josh Clark? I thought about that, too, and then I'm like, "Do you want to give them a platform?"
21:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, but then I thought, "Or, you know, you could just talk about it and how stupid they are."
21:26 Josh Clark? All right.
21:27 Speaker 02 Like, when I was a kid, I mean, of course, being in Georgia, that stuff was around. I never, like, saw it firsthand, obviously.
21:34 Josh Clark? Yeah.
21:34 Speaker 02 But you heard things even, like, growing up in the 70s in Georgia, and I was always so scared of the whole thing because of the outfits and everything and the fire.
21:44 Josh Clark? Right.
21:44 Speaker 02 And I was a good little Baptist boy, so there was a lot of fear. But then I got a little older and I was like, they're just dumb rednecks wearing sheets.
21:52 Josh Clark? Right.
21:53 Speaker 02 Sort of demystified it.
21:55 Josh Clark? This is the moment you become an adult.
21:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, but, I mean, of course, then I would later learn that they did real horrific things and took lives and, you know, are a terrorist organization.
22:05 Josh Clark? Right, right.
22:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:07 Josh Clark? But I think what you're saying is they made themselves up to be boogeymen.
22:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly.
22:11 Josh Clark? And they definitely can be that way, especially in a young mind or something like that, but, yeah.
22:17 Speaker 02 Sure.
22:18 Josh Clark? So, so, back to the story. Ron Stallworth is on the phone with this guy named Ken Odell, who wants to meet him to see if he'd like to join the Klan. And this is a big problem because I think, as we mentioned a couple of times, Ron Stallworth was African-American.
22:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's like, oh, boy, what do I do here?
22:36 Josh Clark? Right. So, he actually recruited a fellow detective who he, in his book, calls Chuck. That's all he's ever publicly referred to the guy as is Chuck. Wait, was it you, Chuck?
22:47 Speaker 02 It was not me.
22:47 Josh Clark? Okay.
22:48 Speaker 02 That gentleman is, I guess, either still undercover or just never wanted his identity out there.
22:54 Josh Clark? Right. So, he, yeah, he may still live in Colorado Springs, who knows?
22:58 Speaker 02 Maybe he's on a case right now, for all I know.
23:00 Josh Clark? But, so, this Chuck guy, he was recruited by Ron Stallworth to play Ron Stallworth to the Klan because Chuck was white. He was already an undercover narcotics agent, and apparently he was friendly enough with Ron Stallworth to say, yes, I will, I will join this investigation, buddy. Let's do it.
23:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, and here's the thing, though. He was, this wasn't his, like, primary case. So Chuck is undercover on a lot of different assignments. So he's not around as much as Stallworth needs him. So, like in the movie, most of this stuff is done over the phone. Like, he spends a lot of time in this investigation on the phone, speaking to these Klansmen who think that he's a white man. And when they needed to meet, he would send Chuck in, who, and we'll get to the voice part in a minute, because that's when I was watching the movie, I was like, Do none of these dummies not realize that they don't sound anything alike?
23:59 Josh Clark? Right.
23:59 Speaker 02 You know, because they've been talking to him on the phone at length.
24:02 Josh Clark? Yeah.
24:03 Speaker 02 But they had their, they had their first meeting. They, they got together and I believe they met, they met somewhere at first and then went to a bar. After like, it's the second part of that meeting.
24:16 Josh Clark? Yeah, they met at a conveni- so the movie supposedly portrays this realistically. They, they, this Chuck guy who is portraying Ron Stallworth through the Klan.
24:26 Josh Clark? Met, they met at a convenience store and he was said, he was told to get in the car. And then they drove to a second location, which man, that's scary stuff. And also, he's also wearing a wire at the time, like that's something that, that the, the movie kinda gets across. But especially in like, articles about the story, don't necessarily dive into. This Chuck Cat was like, putting himself out there.
24:48 Speaker 02 Oh, sure, as every undercover detective does.
24:50 Josh Clark? Right, so I mean, Ron Stallworth is conducting this investigation. He's the mastermind of it, he's leading this whole thing. But this poor Chuck guy has to go hang out with these, you know, violent Klan's members. Or Klan members on, you know, like fairly frequently from what I understand, so hats off to him.
25:07 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, absolutely, I mean, it was, it was definitely like, it required both of their best efforts to get away with this for that long.
25:14 Josh Clark? Right.
25:14 Speaker 02 It was quite the ruse, so Chuck meets with them, eventually earns their trust. Along with the, the phone work of Stallworth. And then, he actually gets successfully admitted about two months later. And got his little, I guess you get a little membership card.
25:33 Josh Clark? He still has it.
25:34 Speaker 02 He does, he did not throw it away, like in the movie. He has it framed, in fact. And on the back of the card were six codes of conduct. One of which said, never discuss any Klan affairs with any plainclothes officer on a state, local, or national level.
25:49 Josh Clark? Right.
25:50 Speaker 02 So, there is a lot of comedy in the movie, if you haven't seen it.
25:55 Speaker 02 I mean, it's a serious thing that they're doing, but there are a lot of laughs as well.
25:59 Josh Clark? A lot of laughs and a lot of like movie formula steps that Spike Lee purposely follows, you know, very faithfully too.
26:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
26:08 Josh Clark? So there's a big point there that we left out there Chuck. So to get that membership card supposedly, again, as they say in Colorado, the oysters on this guy. His, he had, so he met, so the fake Ron Stallworth Chuck, met with the Klan, impressed them enough between Ron's, the real Ron Stallworth's phone calls and Chuck's, whatever Chuck was saying in person, all this combined made the Colorado Springs Klan members say, okay, we like you, we want you to be a member, fill out this application and we'll send it off to the, to the national director of, again, the Klan, we should say, I don't know if we've ever said this, the Klan calls itself the organization.
26:50 Speaker 02 Right.
26:51 Josh Clark? Rather than the Klan.
26:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:53 Josh Clark? So they, and, and the guy who ran the thing, I don't know if he still runs it or not, but he definitely did at this time during this investigation, there's a guy named David Duke, who if you grew up in the eighties or I think even the nineties.
27:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:05 Josh Clark? You were probably pretty familiar with David Duke. I believe he ran for president once, didn't he?
27:11 Speaker 02 I don't know. I mean, he was, wasn't he the governor of Louisiana?
27:15 Josh Clark? I don't, maybe that's what it is. Maybe he ran for that, but he was the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and he was trying to make it a more political organization, less of, less of a terrorist organization and more of a political organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan. Like there were still plenty of times when he was wearing robes and stuff. He just never did in public. So during this time, he was, he was the national director, the grand wizard of the Klan. And when Ron Stallworth didn't get his application pushed through fast enough, he picked up the phone and called the national headquarters and ended up talking with David Duke and saying like, hey, my application's taking a while. Is there anything you can do about it? And this kicked off like what,
28:00 Josh Clark? what Ron Stallworth would later characterize in a weird way as a friendship between him, a black undercover detective in Colorado, and David Duke, the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.
28:13 Speaker 02 Yeah. And by the way, I don't want to get. Angry emails from David Duke supporters.
28:18 Josh Clark? Uh huh.
28:18 Speaker 02 He was a Republican Louisiana state rep. He was not governor.
28:25 Josh Clark? But I think he ran for some, some high office.
28:28 Speaker 02 Oh, he did. He ran, uh, he was a candidate for the Democratic presidential primaries in the late eighties. And then the Republican primaries in 92.
28:37 Josh Clark? He ran as a Democrat and then a, I could see that solid south kind of thing.
28:41 Speaker 02 Yeah. And I think he ran for state senate and lost, uh, US senate and lost, uh, US house and lost. And he did run for governor of Louisiana, but he lost.
28:51 Josh Clark? Gotcha. Okay.
28:52 Speaker 02 And, and you may be, if you're, if you didn't grow up in the eighties, you may have heard his name more recently. Because, um, he fully endorsed, uh, Donald Trump's campaign. And after Donald Trump won, he, um, this was his quote on Twitter. Make no mistake, our people have played a huge role in electing Trump. So he was, he was in the news again more recently.
29:15 Josh Clark? Well, he was also in Charlottesville, um, if not leading the, the rally to unite the right. Definitely a, a big speaker at it, a big, a big part of it. And Spike Lee uses some of his footage from that rally. It kind of get across that, you know, this stuff is still going on. This isn't from the seventies or, or earlier.
29:39 Speaker 02 How great was Topher Grace?
29:41 Josh Clark? He was wonderful.
29:42 Speaker 02 He was so good. And he looks a lot like David Duke of the seventies.
29:46 Josh Clark? He really does.
29:46 Speaker 02 Unfortunately for him.
29:47 Josh Clark? The stash and the three piece suits and all that. So.
29:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, he did a good job.
29:52 Josh Clark? But so, so yeah, and the movie Topher Grace from that seventies show, um, always, he will always be from that seventies show.
29:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:00 Josh Clark? He plays, um, what do you want me to say? Like he, he had a bit part in Ocean's Eleven or something? Brad Pitt's character was teaching him to play poker, I think.
30:09 Speaker 02 Forgot about that.
30:10 Josh Clark? You know, that guy.
30:10 Speaker 02 No, he's that seventies show, of course.
30:12 Josh Clark? So, so he, uh, he plays David Duke in the, in the movie and they're, this, this is, this is, it's really funny. Like Spike Lee added stuff that it's just, you, you would think like, well, yeah, of course it's totally believable. Like Chuck. Being Jewish in real life.
30:27 Speaker 02 Right.
30:27 Josh Clark? And he actually wasn't. That's fabricated by the movie. So you would just not even think twice about that, but it turns out that's not true. The stuff that seems the least true is actually the stuff that actually happened. And for a very long time, well, at the very least, over the course of this nine-month investigation, there were multiple phone calls that were very cordial and friendly.
30:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:48 Josh Clark? Where Ron Stallworth would call David Duke and posing as a white Klan member and pump information. They would talk about, you know, David Duke's family and like just have normal conversations that would inevitably turn back to racism and the weakening of the white race at the hands of, you know, the Jewish media and all the minorities who were taking over. And so it would inevitably turn disgusting. But he said later, I think in the book and in interviews where if you could separate that stuff out, he was actually a pleasant person to talk to. And that's where that weird friendship that he characterized it as kind of developed from those conversations. But there is.
31:29 Speaker 02 Like you couldn't make this stuff up, you know?
31:31 Josh Clark? Exactly. But there is at least one video of David Duke basically admitting that yes, this, he had conversations with this guy. He tries to downplay it.
31:40 Speaker 02 Sure.
31:40 Josh Clark? But he does basically verify that yes, that's true. That really happened.
31:45 Speaker 02 Well, and Duke's probably like, I can't remember every phone call I had with every random racist over the years.
31:52 Josh Clark? Right. There were a lot of them.
31:53 Speaker 02 Even this guy posing as one. All right. Well, let's take another break and we're going to go, we're going to talk a little bit more about this weird David Duke relationship right after this.
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34:25 Josh Clark? Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of Vivgart, Vivgart is also known as its generic name, Fgartigamod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from People facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.
34:49 Speaker 02 Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.
35:01 Josh Clark? These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
35:26 Speaker 02 All right, so he's buddying up with David Duke on the phone. He's fooling everybody. And he even, like, you get the sense that he does have a little bit of sense of humor, Stallworth, because at one point, he even goaded him on the phone a little bit, and this is in the movie, and it was totally true.
35:45 Josh Clark? Yeah.
35:45 Speaker 02 He said, you know, "Mr. Duke, have you ever worried about, like, a black man posing as a white man and infiltrating your organization?" And Duke said, "No." And he said, and this is from the NPR interview with Stallworth, he said, "I can tell you're white because you don't talk like a black man." He said, "You talk like a very smart, intellectual white man, and I can tell by the way you pronounce certain words." And he said, you know, "Give me an example." And he said, "Black people tend to pronounce the word "r", "aura," and I can tell by listening to you that you're not black because you do not pronounce that word in that manner." It's science.
36:24 Josh Clark? Case closed.
36:25 Speaker 02 Oh, boy. He was so easily duped. I love it. And then they also did, in fact, meet in person. That part is true as well. Duke came to town and was having lunch. It was not a big ceremony, like in the movie, but he came to town to have lunch, and the department assigned- Stallworth to protect him. And so he goes there to the restaurant, introduces himself to protect him. Duke says, all right, I appreciate you them, you know, sending someone my way. And Chuck is undercover there as well. And he does, in fact, Stallworth posed with David Duke and gets a Polaroid with him.
37:06 Josh Clark? So this sounded to me like, what was the, what was going on here? Like, I mean, like, you've got this investigation going. This is, this takes place during this undercover investigation that Stallworth's conducting. You have a guy who's already like putting himself out there, Chuck, as, as the white Ron Stallworth. And then the chief says, oh, yes, by the way, you, the only African American police officer in our entire squad, you go be David Duke's bodyguard for the day while he's in town in Colorado Springs. Like, that was just bizarre. And not only do it, do that, that very like obvious overt act, slap in
37:48 Josh Clark? the face to David Duke, which was great, but if it, but it could have jeopardized like this whole, this whole thing, because you also, you had the guy portraying Ron Stallworth in the same room at the same lunch. It just seemed really strange. And again, that was one of those things where when you watch the movie, you would think like, well, that's just made up. No, that actually took place, at least according to Ron Stallworth's memoirs. And that, that Chuck was in the room, was asked to take a picture by Ron Stallworth with David Duke and the Grand Dragon, I guess, who must be like the head of the state in Colorado. And then at the last second, when he was counting down, he put his arms around
38:29 Josh Clark? the shoulders of the two Klan guys, and then got his hands on the picture. Apparently, all of that was the case, but he's since lost the picture.
38:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. And Duke really did try to get it back. And Stallworth like got to it quicker and said, basically like, if you try to take this thing, I will have you arrested for assaulting a police officer. Like, don't do it. Don't think about it.
38:49 Josh Clark? Right. So he said he lost it in a move. He wished he had taken better care of it. But The idea that it was like, that's just so nuts. It tells you a lot about the investigation, though, to me. Like, it makes you say, like, okay, how seriously were they taking this investigation at the time? If Stallworth later said, all right, this is, this is just, you know, this is just another job to me. When I started it, I did the job, and then when it was done, I moved on to another job. The fact that he didn't talk about it much until, I think he spoke about it to the press once in 2006 in a Deseret News article, and then didn't talk about it again until 2014, when his memoirs came out.
39:32 Josh Clark? It was just like a thing that they were doing, that other people were doing other stuff, too. And then to have like that part of it, that the idea that you would jeopardize it in that way, just makes it seem like they weren't taking it as that big of a, an operation, as like the movie would like to believe. I'm not sure.
39:52 Speaker 02 Well, I think in, in real life, it was, it was a information gathering investigation. Like, it was never, we're gonna take down the Klan in Colorado. It was, let's infiltrate and get as much information and fact finding as we can. And in the end, after eight months, that's kind of what happened. It was, he considers, Stallworth considers it a success in that they fulfilled their mission. They did prevent three cross burning ceremonies during that eight month span or a nine month span.
40:24 Josh Clark? Right.
40:25 Speaker 02 And they did identify Klan members who worked at NORAD.
40:30 Josh Clark? Right.
40:30 Speaker 02 Who apparently, they said they, I mean, these days they would be fired probably, but they said they reassigned them to like Greenland or something.
40:38 Josh Clark? Right, because they had access to the, to nuclear weapons. Apparently, they had very high level clearance at NORAD.
40:45 Speaker 02 Which is scary. And then they also found plans that they didn't act on. Like, the whole bomb plot in the movie was, was made up for dramatic purposes, but they did find links between, for a plan to...
41:00 Speaker 02 Bomb a gay nightclub and another plan to steal automatic weapons from an army base, like an inside job.
41:06 Josh Clark? Mm-hmm.
41:07 Speaker 02 So it was, you know, it was valuable work they were doing, for sure. It just wasn't like, we're gonna take the Klan down. Like, I don't think it was the department's big, uh, big job at the time.
41:17 Josh Clark? No, certainly not. And in the memoirs and in the movie, too, the, the reason that's given for the, um, the undercover operation to end is because it started to become successful. Ron Stallworth was nominated to lead the Colorado Springs chapter of the Klan. Like, Ken Odell basically said, "You should take my job. Everybody likes you. You're really good at this. You're smart. You should lead the Klan here." Uh, and the, the police chief of Colorado Springs said, "That's it. Close it down. Burn all the evidence of this investigation." He apparently was worried about what, what a PR nightmare it would be if it got out that some of his detectives were in the Colorado Springs Klan.
41:59 Josh Clark? But at the same time, what strikes me as odd is that the FBI wasn't like, "Oh, well, jeez, this guy is, like, being nominated to lead the Colorado Springs Klan."
42:09 Speaker 02 Right.
42:10 Josh Clark? He's talking to David Duke. Like, really, this, this could not be kind of blown up into a larger investigation or a larger sting or something like that? And then, secondly, and, um, Ron Stallworth himself addresses this, there's a very frequently a criticism of, "Well, if this was such a big operation and they found all this stuff, why wasn't anyone arrested? Why weren't there any arrests?"
42:32 Speaker 02 Well, that's what David Duke says.
42:34 Josh Clark? Right. Not just David Duke. Stallworth says also that some, that in law enforcement, too, people question that. Like, why wasn't anyone arrested? And he said it was an intel investigation and, and that's what they did, is they gathered stuff. But then he very rightly points out, like you said, like, the fact that they prevented cross-burnings alone makes it a worthwhile and valuable operation. I think just some people on the outside are saying, "Well, why wasn't, why wasn't more done? Why didn't more come out of this?" You know?
43:03 Speaker 02 Well-
43:04 Josh Clark? And I'm not quite sure what they're driving at, but there are, you know, Stallworth brings that up in an interview I read with him, like, that people do ask that and wonder about that.
43:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, and Stallworth, uh- Is very proud of the fact that with the cross burnings, he was like, no, I can't remember the quote, but he said something about like, no children in Colorado Springs got to, you know, no young black kids had to see crosses on fire during that eight or nine month period. And he's very proud of that, as he should be.
43:30 Josh Clark? Yeah, for real.
43:31 Speaker 02 So I mentioned The Voice earlier and the fact that he had a different voice, obviously, than Chuck. And he said, one time, only one time, and I think this was in the movie, wasn't it?
43:43 Speaker 02 Or was it?
43:44 Josh Clark? Yeah, it was, actually. No, it was. I remember.
43:46 Speaker 02 Yeah. So one time in the whole investigation, did someone say like, wait a minute, you sound different. Chuck had just been at a in-person meeting, came back, and then Stallworth wants to follow up on the phone with Ken Odell about something right afterward. So he had just heard Chuck's voice for whatever, this whole meeting, and was talking to him. And he was like, wait a minute, you sound different. What's going on? And he just pulled it off. He coughed and said he had a sinus infection. And Ken Odell was like, oh, well, here's how you clear that up, and gave him some good sinus medication advice.
44:21 Josh Clark? Right. Yeah, that definitely appeared in the movie.
44:24 Speaker 02 I mean, you could not make this thing up, you know? It's crazy.
44:27 Josh Clark? No, for real. No, apparently, for a long time, Stallworth was saying like, yeah, it was just another job. It was just another operation. And I guess he told some fellow, like, law enforcement friends or whatever about it. And they're like, dude, you, this is a movie. You need to write this down. You need to get this out there. You, this is a one in a million story.
44:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, I wonder, one reason it didn't go bigger operation-wise was because the sort of hackneyed way they got into it, like, he's The Voice, but they're sending a white man. Like, it's, I'm surprised he pulled it off for that long.
45:03 Josh Clark? Yeah, I could totally see that.
45:05 Speaker 02 One final thing that did not happen in real life, but did happen in the movie, and this is what, when you usually will change real life, is to get a more satisfying ending. But Stallworth did not, unfortunately, reveal his true identity to David Duke like he does to hilarious effect in the film, unfortunately.
45:26 Josh Clark? No.
45:27 Speaker 02 How sad to learn that.
45:28 Josh Clark? He was saying like, yeah, he just, he didn't really talk about it until the 2000s. So David Duke didn't know until, I guess, the memoirs came out.
45:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, and you know, well, I guess we should talk about Spike Lee getting criticized. Boots Riley, director, who I had on Movie Crush, by the way.
45:47 Josh Clark? I know. What was his movie?
45:50 Speaker 02 Sorry to Bother You was his film that he made.
45:53 Josh Clark? No, I mean, his pick for Movie Crush.
45:55 Speaker 02 His pick was a movie called Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters.
46:00 Josh Clark? Okay.
46:00 Speaker 02 Yeah. It was a great film, and his, like, his knowledge on movies was deep. He turned me on to a lot of cool things.
46:08 Josh Clark? I thought for a very, a very terrible second, you were saying his pick was his own movie.
46:12 Speaker 02 No, no. But he, you know, Boots does not hold back on what he thinks. And while you would think that he would be like, oh, no, I'm gonna be a champion of Spike Lee and telling the story, he came out very publicly on Twitter and very intelligently criticized it. He didn't just bag on it. He wrote a big, long statement on exactly what he thought was wrong with it.
46:37 Josh Clark? Yeah, he basically said, look, man, if you take away all the embellishments that Spike Lee added to this movie, what you have is a guy who, who's probably biggest assignment, and I'm not sure where he got this, but he focused on that, that Stokely Carmichael thing, and the fact that Ron Stallworth had worked undercover to infiltrate the Black Power movement in Colorado Springs, and that he had worked on that for like, three years, and that this Klan thing was just a, like, a nine-month thing. And he also criticized Spike Lee for making it, making the movie seem like law enforcement and the Black Power movement came together to fight racism.
47:17 Speaker 02 Right.
47:18 Josh Clark? And that, like, that was a larger point, or that that was historically accurate, or something like that. It was a really interesting, it was like, a three-page essay that he posted on Twitter that made some good points. He basically said, from what I can tell, it looks like Ron Stallworth was working for COINTELPRO, which is the FBI's...
47:40 Josh Clark? It was their, their program to undermine groups, including black power groups, which we mentioned it in the Black Panther episode we did. And they, COINTELPRO definitely deserves its own episode.
47:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:53 Josh Clark? And it was, it was ended officially in 1971, but I think Boots Riley's point was, it may have been officially ended, but the, the work was still going on. And if this guy was infiltrating black power, like groups in Colorado Springs, he was almost certainly trying to break them up, one way or another, probably using COINTEL purposes or practices. And Ron Stallworth, he had a pretty great quote in response to it. He said, "I pray for my demented, dissolute brother," in response to Boots Riley. And Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever. So who knows, but you make a good point that like he's, he's,
48:36 Josh Clark? he's not just giving like blind allegiance to anything.
48:39 Speaker 02 Sure. Well, Spike did comment eventually.
48:42 Josh Clark? Oh, I didn't see that.
48:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was, he was in an interview and the first thing he said was like, "Hey, I'm a, I'm a young man of 61," or something like that. And like, you know, young me might've kind of gotten into a war of words, but he's just not into that anymore. But he did say briefly something about, "Listen, I'm not going to come out and say that all cops are racist and all cops do bad things because they don't all do bad things. There's a lot of great cops. There's also bad cops." And he kind of just couched it in that and then was like, "But you know, I'm not going to be really talking about this anymore."
49:18 Josh Clark? Right. Yeah, I hadn't seen that he'd even had that comment.
49:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:23 Josh Clark? So it's interesting stuff and it's a good movie at the very least.
49:27 Speaker 02 Oh, for sure.
49:28 Josh Clark? You know, I think, I think Ron Stallworth's like, "Man, they made a movie about my story. That's pretty awesome." And at the very least, it's a pretty great movie. How about that?
49:37 Speaker 02 Totally.
49:38 Josh Clark? Totally. So if you, you got anything else?
49:41 Speaker 02 I got nothing else.
49:42 Josh Clark? If you want to know more about Black Klansmen, you should probably go see that movie. And I guess we probably should have said at the outset, this episode is not an ad.
49:50 Speaker 02 Oh, of course not.
49:51 Josh Clark? We just like the movie a lot, right?
49:54 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, you could say it's an ad, but like no one gave us money or asked us to do this.
49:59 Josh Clark? Sure.
50:00 Speaker 02 But I am endorsing it.
50:02 Josh Clark? Okay, there you go. I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were.
50:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:07 Josh Clark? Rest in peace Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel.
50:10 Speaker 02 Two thumbs.
50:12 Josh Clark? Okay, so if, or I already said that. How about some listener mail?
50:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm gonna call this ping pong response from a former pro.
50:22 Josh Clark? Oh, nice.
50:22 Speaker 02 Hey guys, want to commend you on the job you did, covering a sport that you didn't have an extensive extensive knowledge of. I'm a professional table tennis coach and former player. I started playing in college, thought I was really good, until I was coerced to go to a tournament at Princeton University about 20 years ago, and I got destroyed. I didn't like that, so I sought out to coach, and the rest is history. You guys clearly did a lot of research and to highlight the things that most novice players aren't aware of, but there were a few things I couldn't help but point out. Josh, you mentioned the components of the modern racket. You said the pimpled sign, those are called pips, are for spinning the ball, that the smooth side is for defensive play, but the opposite is actually true.
51:02 Josh Clark? Oh, no.
51:03 Speaker 02 I didn't catch that, because I would have pointed that out. I thought everyone knew that.
51:08 Josh Clark? Thank you for that.
51:10 Speaker 02 You get good spin on that smooth side.
51:12 Josh Clark? For real?
51:13 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah. It's grippy.
51:15 Josh Clark? Alright.
51:16 Speaker 02 He said the smooth side is very tacky, as in sticky. And that combined with the sponge underneath allows the ball to sink in just enough so that the tacky surface grips the ball and generates a lot of spin. Also, you can have, really have any combination of rubber that you want, as long as it's ITTF approved. Players are not restricted to having one smooth side and one with pips, but one side does have to be red and the other black. Most defensive players use pips on their backhand, because pips vary the spin that is coming back at you, and is very hard to read. Also Chuck, you mentioned that defensive players are called chislers. They're actually called choppers, as they chop the ball back with varying backspin.
51:58 Speaker 02 I've never heard the term chislers. I'm wondering if it is extremely outdated.
52:02 Josh Clark? Maybe.
52:03 Speaker 02 I bet you that was the case.
52:05 Josh Clark? Yeah.
52:06 Speaker 02 I had old research. Chislers!
52:08 Josh Clark? All right, that's what they call it in the 20s.
52:12 Speaker 02 He said, if you guys are ever in the Dunellen, New Jersey area, stop by
52:15 Josh Clark? We're there right now.
52:17 Speaker 02 Stop by the Lilly Yip Table Tennis Club, and I'll gladly hook you guys up with a lesson.
52:22 Josh Clark? I will gladly humiliate you in person.
52:25 Speaker 02 And that is Thomas from Philly.
52:27 Josh Clark? Thanks, Thomas. Much appreciated. We like it when we are gently corrected because we like to be right. So thanks for that. If you want to get in touch with us, let us know, I don't know, something we got wrong about black Klansmen, let us know. You can find all of our social links on stuffyoushouldknow.com. And as always, send us an email to [email protected] .
52:57 Speaker 03 For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.
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53:53 Josh Clark? Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Previous SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: Why was Titicut Follies banned? Next SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: How Exploitation Films Work Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated