The Rosenbergs

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for espionage in 1953. Whether or not they were both guilty remains unclear, though most historians believe that at least Ethel was innocent. Learn all about this historical stain in today's episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and this is Stuff You Should Know, the podcast.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  That's right. The We Didn't Start the Fire edition.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  It's funny because I, that may have been the first time I've heard about the Rosenbergs.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Rosenberg's H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom.

• 1:36Josh Clark?

  What was that last part? I've never known what the heck he was saying.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  P A N M U N J O M, one word, Panmunjom. Brando the King and I and the catcher in the ring.

• 1:47Josh Clark?

  Right, back up. What is Panmu Jam?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know, buddy. You'll have to listen to the We Didn't Start the Fire history podcast because I was like, earlier today, I was like, oh, man, what a great basis for a history podcast.

• 2:00Josh Clark?

  No.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course it was a thing. But you know, it's got a shelf life because they, I guess, went through all of them. From twenty one, twenty twenty one to twenty twenty three?

• 2:11Josh Clark?

  So was each, each lyric its own episode?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, I, I would, I mean, that's how I would do it because you can get a lot of mileage out of that song.

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  For sure. That's really cool. Hats off.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't check it out. Uh, but yeah, I mean.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  I didn't check it out.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  There's a, ah, man, there, surely they didn't do one each because there are so many references and they only ran for two years unless it was a daily show.

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  Maybe they just got bored after like halfway through. They're like, forget this.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Anyway, this is a, that's Billy Joel's worst song probably. And this is a, this is a podcast about the Rosenbergs.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  Well, what was his best song? And if you don't say Uptown Girl, you're wrong.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Probably Miami twenty seventeen.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  I don't even know what that is.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I've seen the lights go out on Broadway. That's a great song. But I'm a Billy Joel, like, super, I'm a stan, so.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  Are you really?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. You didn't know that?

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  No, I had no idea.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, Glass Houses was the first record I ever bought. Then I've seen him live like a dozen times.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  I had no idea.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  I, like, it's kind of cool to listen to Billy Joel now, but I, I suffered many decades of people making fun of me. Because I would like go see a pavement show and then put on Billy Joel the next day.

• 3:26Josh Clark?

  Man, people just stink sometimes.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Hey, man, you got, I have a variety of tastes, as do you.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  For sure. And people should be left alone and not have their tastes made fun of.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll go to bat for Billy Joel any day of the week, my friend.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  Um, I'll tell you who maybe should have been left alone, and that's Ethel Rosenberg.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I guess we should give a sort of an overview of this before we dig in.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  So the Rosenbergs, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, were a married couple. Uh, they lived in New York City, were from New York City. And they were convicted. Of committing espionage in 1951 and executed and put to death. Which was, this is a very big deal for a few reasons. One is because a lot of historians basically say like, I don't think Ethel did this and she was probably innocent. Even though Julius did. And a lot of people say, and even if he did, and she might have known about it, like executing these two people with two young sons. When no one else was getting executed for this at the time was a travesty of justice.

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And as we'll see, they got caught up in Cold War communist hysteria. And were basically put into a deadly game of chicken. Essentially is what it amounts to.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  It's one of those blemishes on the Department of Justice that's never really going to go away that they did this. We'll see. We'll explain. But it's just a sad story all around. We want to say Julius Rosenberg definitely was a spy for the Soviet Union. An enthusiastic one whose spy career spanned more than a decade.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:10Josh Clark?

  Ethel probably was in some way, shape or form, at least abetting it. If not some way minorly supporting it. She may have also played an even bigger role. But I personally do not think that both of them were innocent. Some people say that. Just based on the research I've done, it just seems clear as day that they weren't both innocent. But to put them both to death, they were the, not the only spies who were caught and convicted during the Cold War. They were the only spies caught and convicted during the Cold War who were executed. And that's what makes the whole thing so significant.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So let's go back and talk a little bit about their early life. We can kind of breeze through this first part. But I mentioned they were both born in New York. Ethel was born there in 1915. Had a few brothers, went to Seward Park High School. She was big into theater and this would come up because she loved to sing and dance. And later on, when she started to get a little political and was going to union events, she would like perform sometimes. I guess to, you know, just make it a little more fun. Like, hey, here's, we're at the union meeting and now here's a song from Ethel, I guess at the time, Greengrass.

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The Communist Blues with the nice little communist tap dance.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Julius was also born in New York. He's a few years younger, born in 1918 to Polish immigrants. And he also went to Seward Park High School, but I don't think they knew each other there. It seemed like they met when he was at City College and she was working as a secretary.

• 6:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and by this time when they met, they had both, their interests in communism had definitely blossomed.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  I think Julius is even more than Ethel's by then, but Ethel, I think, had participated in a strike and was fired from her workplace for participating in a strike. And she was like, hmm, I think I'm into workers' rights now.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  So when they met, it was at a charity benefit for the International Siemens Union, S E A M E N. And so they were both like, I'm a communist, you're a communist, let's get together and make little communist babies.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  And do the communist shuffle?

• 7:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was definitely more into it. He joined a group called the Steinmet Society. He was an affiliate of the Young Communist League. And he had a couple of friends that are gonna come up later in a sort of a small-ish way, but just put pins. And the names Morton Sobel and Max Elickter, who were buddies he made while he was sort of in this affiliated with the Young Communist League group society.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they had very similar ideas to his. And in 1940, did you say that he trained as an electrical engineer? That's what he studied?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  No, but that's, you're right.

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He was hired as an engineer for the US Army Signal Corps. And when he was hired, he clapped his hands and rubbed them together and said, what can I steal? And pass along his secrets to the Soviet Union, essentially.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically. He had one minor brush with the FBI in 1941. He was called into what's called a loyalty meeting, I guess, to sort of sniff people off the case and see how loyal they were to the United States. Because they found a couple of mentions of Ethel in the FBI files. One that she had signed a petition for a communist city council candidate, and another that was just someone who gave a tip that accused her of having communist leanings. But he was like, "I'm not even into politics that much," which is a lie.

• 8:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Let alone communism, which was also a lie. And so they pretty much dropped the case. And in 1942, they moved to the Lower East Side, to the Knickerbocker Village, and started having those baby communists, like you said.

• 9:06Josh Clark?

  Is the Knickerbocker Village still around? Is that like a neighborhood in the Lower East Side?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  I don't hear it referenced. I mean, I'm sure you could tell where it was, but I don't know if there are any modern references or signage or anything like that. Or I might be wrong, but I've never seen it.

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Maybe it's the KBV that all the cool people in New York talk about.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  Knickerbocker Village?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Oh, gotcha.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  Okay, so we've laid the foundation. There's Julius, there's Ethel, their kids have come along. They're both very loyal communists, especially as we'll see. And Julius is big time into spying. And he became a spy. It's not actually clear how that happened, to tell you the truth. There's many different accounts. One is Julius's account, which is that he never spied and that he was framed by the government.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  That's demonstrably untrue. His brother-in-law David's account, which we'll get into more later, but he basically said that Julius would like, he actually went so far as to go to the Soviet Embassy in New York and said, "Hey, can I do some spying for you guys? I'm a big fan." Like, he would basically just, he wanted to spy. He was putting himself out there. And then there were a couple of others that are probably likelier than either of the other two.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, one Soviet agent named Alexander Fekhslav said he was just introduced to another Soviet agent at a Labor Day rally in Central Park. His name was Semyon Semyonov. And then other people said, no, it was another intelligence person. So we don't know how he got into it. But to set the stage of why he might have done this, it was a time in the 1940s when the US and the Soviets were allied against the Nazis. And there are historians that say like Julius didn't think he was betraying the US. He thought he was fighting fascism when he sort of started getting into spying for the Soviets. I don't know about that, but that's what some people say.

• 11:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think that's the most polite way you could put it. Another way to say it is maybe betraying the United States was just an incidental part of it.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

• 11:19Josh Clark?

  But I saw that one of the things he was well known for, it's like he hated fascism so much that he would like, like be seen walking down the street and be like, I hate you fascism. And he'd be punching the air.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:29Josh Clark?

  He hated fascism. So that was one of his big motives for sure.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:33Josh Clark?

  And in 1942, so he was hired in 1940. I guess he laid a little bit of groundwork for people trusting him. In 1942, he started passing weapons information to the Soviets. And some pretty big ones, too. One of the ones I saw was a proximity fuse. And that is a tiny radio that is used in anti-aircraft guns that basically tells the anti-aircraft gun, okay, that plane is now in range to do maximum damage to it, fire.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:06Josh Clark?

  That's definitely something you want to have on your anti-aircraft gun. And he passed that along to the Soviets. That was just one example. And he was, he was first handled by Semyon Semyonov, who you mentioned earlier.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 12:21Josh Clark?

  He got handed off then to Alexander Fekhlasov, who you also mentioned earlier. And so those two's account of how he got into spying are probably the likeliest because they were his spymasters when he was a spy.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed. Also. During this time, and this is pretty key, he was trying to recruit other people who had that sort of same political leanings as him and recruit them. And one of those people was the aforementioned brother in law. So this is David Green Glass, and this is Ethel's brother.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  So in March 1945, he was fired from the Signal Corps. The FBI said, wait a minute, you've got a Communist Party membership card. And it's got your name on it. And he was like, oh, okay. So I don't work there anymore. I'm going to start my own business with Ethel's brothers, David, who I just mentioned, and Bernie. And it's called Pit Machine Products. And that did not go well. I guess that it just wasn't a good business. I think David accused Julius of being a bad business person. He accused David of being a bad foreman. And by 1948, the company was almost not a company anymore.

• 13:28Josh Clark?

  No, it was just down to the original investors. I just made scare quotes. Who were Julius and Ethel's two brothers, David and Bernie, right? So another big part of this problem, I guess we should say what we're describing now is animosity that kind of grew up.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:46Josh Clark?

  Between David and Julius specifically. There was just some tension, even though they still remained in one another's lives, highly involved in one another's lives. Some historians point to this specific instance of them going into business together, which is

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:02Josh Clark?

  always a bad idea to go into business with family across the board. Okay. Again, we'll go back to my original motto, never trust family.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Never trust family. Man, you've been saying that for years.

• 14:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well Julius Rosenberg would agree with me. So would Ethel. But so David started to become resentful, and there was animosity.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  Throughout this, this period, and some people point to that as, as the basis of what came later.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. David had borrowed a lot of money from Julius without returning it. So the animosity is building. His wife, David's wife, Ruth, so their sister-in-law, the Rosenberg sister-in-law, she in February of 1950 was lit a fire when her nightgown brushed up against a heater of her apartment. She had a lot of hospitalization and severe burns and high medical bills and gave birth to a daughter while she was recovering from this. So all this is just to basically set up, like you said, that David is, he's, he's in a pretty bad place in his life at this time.

• 15:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's going through a rough patch.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:11Josh Clark?

  So we'll talk a little bit more about what happened because there's different accounts depending on who you talk to. But what we do know that happened next was that they started to get caught. So the whole thing kicked off in February of 1950 when a guy named Klaus Fuchs, who was a physicist, he was British, he was discovered by MI6 as being a Soviet spy. And he was a big time Soviet spy. Apparently, the spying he did is estimated to have helped the Soviets skip ahead an entire year in their development of the atomic bomb. Huge, huge damaging spy. And when he was caught, he implicated others,

• 15:56Josh Clark?

  but he didn't know others' names. He only knew their code names. And he mentioned Raymond. Well, the FBI, the US government had what are now known as the Venona cables. The, the US had cracked secret cables that were encrypted that the USSR had sent during World War II.

• 16:16Josh Clark?

  And in it, it talked about a lot of the spies working for them. And by having these Venona cables and knowing people's different code names, they were able to basically root out at least 100 spies using these cables. And Klaus Fuchs was first, and then after Klaus Fuchs was Harry Gold, who was the Raymond that Klaus Fuchs mentioned in his confession.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. So he was his US contact, Fuchs's US contact. And then eventually that trickled down and Gold led them to David Greenglass, the Rosenberg's brother and brother-in-law.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  So on June 15th, 1950, the feds got David Greenglass and they rounded him up, brought him to HQ to question him. And he was like, I'm not into espionage at all, like deny, deny, deny, which is, I guess, the sensible thing to do. But then they said, no, this guy Harry Gold identified a photo of you. And he went, okay, you got me. I am committing espionage. He was arrested and he said, I passed on this atomic information, and we'll get to how he knew this stuff in a minute. I passed it on to Harry Gold in June 1945. I was initially recruited to do this by my wife Ruth,

• 17:33Speaker 02

  and Ruth was recruited by my no-good brother-in-law Julius. Key to all this is that he never mentioned Ethel being involved at first.

• 17:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a big one right there. Just put that in your pipe and stick it in your hat, right?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:48Josh Clark?

  Should we take a break now and talk about what came next?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good cliffhanger.

• 17:53Josh Clark?

  Okay, we'll be right back.

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• 21:34Josh Clark?

  So the feds have David Greenglass now, who is one degree removed from the Rosenbergs. And he's already implicated Julius, but not Ethel. So the FBI goes to start talking to Julius. They questioned him in June of 1950. And I guess basically the day after they started talking to David Greenglass's brother-in-law.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, they moved pretty quick.

• 21:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they didn't have enough on Julius to bust him yet. They knew enough, because again, remember, they had the Venona cables, and all of these people are mentioned in the Venona cables. They had basically figured out who is who, but the Venona cables were so sensitive and so highly classified. The FBI, the Department of Justice, could not use them in court.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:21Josh Clark?

  So they could only use them as a background information. And then they had to extract these confessions and piece together like, as if those things didn't exist. So they knew everything, but they had to basically get David Greenglass, and then later, his wife Ruth, to talk.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, which they did over the course of a month or so. They started talking to Ruth, kept talking to David and about, yeah, like one month later, July 17th, they said, all right, we got enough, we're gonna arrest Julius. And then a little less than a month later, on August 11th, after Ethel participated in the grand jury hearing for her husband, she was also arrested. And they were both charged with conspiracy to commit espionage, and that was under the Espionage Act of 1917.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. For some reason, going and being just a part of a grand jury trial and then getting arrested right after, I can't compare it to anything, but it just seems almost mean. Like, there should be a break in between. Like, you think you're going in and you're gonna be fine, and then bam, you get arrested on the, like, as you're walking out. It's just, just mean.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  It's like the, when they invited everyone to the football game, the criminals.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was a good one.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Operation, what was that?

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  Uh...

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Was it?

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  Mint's Meat. No, that wasn't, that was the one where they created the corpse that they threw overboard in World War II to fool the Nazis?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that inspired a Broadway show, but I think maybe a Broadway show should be inspired by the Redskins football game.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  I agree, and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, or at least a Simpsons episode.

• 23:53Josh Clark?

  I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet. No, it did, remember? We talked about it, where they had the free boat giveaway?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  That's why I said wink wink.

• 24:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha. I didn't know you were winking at me.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  You're like, I thought you were just flirting.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  All right, so we should tell the story, and this is the official story, according to the Department of Justice, on how this all went down. So we're just gonna kinda tell it that way, to begin with.

• 24:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  I mentioned David Greenglass had atomic secrets, and how he got those was, he was in the Army in 1943, and he was transferred to Los Alamos in August of 1944, and was around the work of the Manhattan Project all of a sudden.

• 24:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was rubbing elbows with Oppenheimer.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  So that was August of 1944, when he started working on the atomic bomb project. A few months later, Ruth came to visit David.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  His wife.

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  Yes, his wife Ruth. So by this time, when she came to visit her husband in Albuquerque, she had actually been recruited as a spy by at least Julius Rosenberg. And she essentially went to Albuquerque to convince her husband to become a spy. All of these, like both couples were very much into the Soviet Union, very much into communism. So they have very similar views. This wasn't like, didn't take a lot of persuading, from what I understand. And she basically said, hey, Julius figured out, probably his Soviet handlers told him, that you're working on the atomic bomb project. So he wants you to tell me everything you know about it, and then I'm going to take it back to him.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  Then he's going to pass it on to the USSR and our glorious leader, Joseph Stalin.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  That's right. January of 1945, David went back to New York on furlough. And just a couple of days after he got back, Julius came around, knocked on the door of his apartment, and he said, hey, what else you got for me on this atomic bomb? He said, write it all down, anything you can think of that's useful, I'll pick it up tomorrow. His wife, David's wife Ruth, was like, his handwriting is terrible. You're not going to be able to read this. And Julius said, according to the DOJ, said, not a problem. Ethel, did I mention to you he was a secretary? She can type like the wind. She'll type everything up, so it's nice and neat and orderly. And we'll all be a working family together in this espionage project.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  All attention will dissolve after we start spying together.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:19Josh Clark?

  In that same furlough visit in January 1945, David and Ruth have dinner with the Rosenbergs, and they're actually introduced to a Soviet operative named An Sidorovich. And a really interesting plan is hatched here that ultimately leads to the downfall of David Greenglass. Julia says, hey, Anne is going to be your contact. Now, she's going to come visit you in Albuquerque. By the way, Ruth, why don't you move to Albuquerque to be with your husband and you guys can spy more effectively together?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:52Josh Clark?

  But when Anne comes to visit, you just give her all the information and she will give it to me. We should say there were people like Anne, like Harry Gold. Their entire job was to act as couriers. And the reason why is because the Soviets rightly assumed that the feds were following all of their operatives in the United States, so they couldn't possibly use an operative to connect two spies. They had to use a third spy to work as a courier. That's what Anne was doing. But somebody said, what if Anne is indisposed? What if she gets a stomach bug and is just pooping everywhere? Or what if she falls in love and runs off and gets married and forgets all about the USSR?

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  And Julia said, I've got a great idea, a Plan B, if you will. And that is where the phrase Plan B was coined.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Are you messing with me?

• 27:46Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, so one small detail here is that Anne was in Denver, so Ruth would get the information from David in Albuquerque, then visit Anne in Denver to pass this along.

• 27:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  And if Anne had that stomach bug, this was the brilliant plan that Julius came up with. He said, hand me that Jell-O box over there.

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  Raspberry.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  And they were like, we've already had dessert. Why do you want this Jell-O box? He ripped the Jell-O box open and took one of the cardboard pieces and he ripped that in half, handed Ruth one, and said, I'm going to give this other half to someone with a secret identity that you don't know yet. That's our Plan B person. So if you show up to Denver, Anne is not there, and somebody shows up with this Jell-O box half that I'm holding and showing you, remember. It's gonna match. You can put it together like a locket.

• 28:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  That that will be the confirmation of their identity, which is so lo-fi, it's actually kind of brilliant.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  It is brilliant. And I think that Jell-O box, those two pieces are in a spy museum somewhere.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  They got it.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  And rightfully so. But it actually came into play because Ann did get indisposed in some way that I hadn't figured out. And Harry Gold, who, again, one of his, his only job was as serving as a courier. He showed up in New Mexico on David and Ruth's doorstep and said, hey, Julia sent me, I'm a spy. And they said, you got the password, you got the code, you got the, I don't know, what would you call an object that serves as a password? Passkey?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  They probably said, do you have the ripped piece of Jell-O box?

• 29:26Josh Clark?

  Right. Or, or they said, I am the key master, are you the gatekeeper?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Gozer, sure.

• 29:32Josh Clark?

  So he said, yes, I am the key master. Check this out. And he produced the half of the Jell-O box and Ruth.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  What a moment.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Ruth or I think it was one of the other, Ruth or David produced the other half and they put it together. And they said, let's, let's rap, brother.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  So he's now the guy, David writes up as much as he knows at that point, you know, the extra stuff about the bomb that he, you know, since the last meeting. And also like here's some other people that, you know, they're always trying to recruit people within Los Alamos and elsewhere. And Gold said, great, thanks a lot. Here's 500 bucks. Which is interesting because they, I mean, they weren't doing it for money, right? Was this just a bit of a bonus for being a good soldier?

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  I think so. I don't, I don't know.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Not chump change back then, nor now.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  No, I mean, they were definitely true, true believers in communism and fighting fascism. So maybe it was just a little, a land yap.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  All right, so they gave him 500 bucks. September of 1945, he went back to New York, David did, on another furlough. And here, he provided information right to Julius's face. Said, "Here's some more notes. I even drew a sketch of the atomic bomb." Julius was like, "This isn't very good." And he said, "No, trust me. It looks basically like that." And he claims that Ethel typed up the notes, and then Julius burned those notes in a frying pan, gave David 200 bucks for his troubles. And that's where we find ourselves.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, when I saw that frying pan detail, I was like, "God, how long did they have to heat those up to get them to catch fire?" And then I realized that they were using the frying pan as like, basically a fireplace. Yeah. I got it now, but it took me a couple of days.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  That'd be very funny in the movie, though. It's just like, just another 45 minutes. What's the flashpoint for Jell-O boxes?

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  Right. So are we at another stopping point?

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, let's do it.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Okay, we're gonna stop, everybody, if we just hatched out.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

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• 32:10Speaker 02

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• 32:25Josh Clark?

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• 33:01Speaker 02

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• 33:05Josh Clark?

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• 33:10Speaker 02

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• 33:14Josh Clark?

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• 33:21Speaker 02

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• 33:28Josh Clark?

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• 33:30Speaker 02

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• 33:43Josh Clark?

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• 34:02Speaker 02

  All right, we're back to the contemporaneous present, when everyone had been arrested, basically. Right out of the gate, David and Ruth, the husband-and-wife team, the Green Glasses, hired an attorney named O. John Rogge, or Rogge, or Rogge. I don't know how you pronounce that, R-O-G-G-E. And so they had a pretty good attorney, and he said, hey, here's what you gotta do. Let me ask you this question first. How much do you like your sister and her husband? He said, because what we should really do, if you want to get out of this, is we should blame the Rosenbergs. And if you can make a case against them, then they're probably gonna let you off pretty light. And he was right on the money with that line of thinking.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the Green Glasses said, sure, why not? I have a pet theory that if David and Ethel had been closer in age, she was seven years older than him. We may not have betrayed her quite as easily, but seven years is a pretty decent amount of distance between you and an older sister. And I think that makes the betrayal all the easier.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  My sister's six years older, and I would totally sell her out.

• 35:08Josh Clark?

  There you go. So my pet theory is correct.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  That's right. So they, this led to basically a different account. Some people may say it was an account that shifted. Other people might say, no, David just basically lied about Ethel's involvement.

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  And you might be wondering like, well, what's, what's the rumpus here? Like, they had Julius dead to rights. Like, why did they need to get Ethel involved? This is because they were living in a time of the J. Edgar Hoover FBI and prosecutors like Roy Cohn, who basically were like, hey, if you want to get Julius, you got to get his wife involved and, and use her as, as leverage, basically.

• 35:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the other thing too, is even though they had Julius dead to rights, he was not cooperating in any way, shape or form. He maintained his innocence until the very end. And they wanted more spots. They wanted to flip him and get more and more and more people.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:04Josh Clark?

  So they used Ethel, like you said, as leverage. And they ended up picking her up based on the Green Glass's testimony. Remember when David Green Glass's first, first question, he does not mention Ethel. He mentions Ruth, his own wife. He mentions his brother-in-law, Julius. He does not say Ethel was part of the spy ring. Now, all of a sudden, he is saying she definitely was. And then even more damning, before like the Department of Justice came and said like, hey, why don't you just so touch a perjury to help our case out? He gave the grand jury testimony, the same grand jury that Ethel was arrested right after,

• 36:46Josh Clark?

  rather unfairly. And he said point blank, Ethel was not involved in this.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we know all this is true because in 2001, David Green Glass said, yeah, I lied about my sister because I wanted to save my own wife.

• 36:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He lied during the trial. He perjured himself. He admitted it. So not only did he perjure himself, he perjured himself to implicate his sister, which a lot of people think she was basically innocent, if not fully innocent. So that's a really hard thing to swallow, but we're still not done with the DOJ and what they did here.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Julius and Ethel were tried together along with Julius's college classmate that I mentioned at the beginning that I said to put a pin in, Morton Sobel. You can take that pin out now. So the three of them are being tried. And if David and Ruth hired, you know, an attorney that had a pretty great idea to blame it on the Rosenbergs, they did not hire well because they hired Emmanuel Manny Block. And I think that was Julius's attorney. They had separate attorneys. And Ethels was his father, Alexander. And neither one of these people were criminal attorneys at all.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

  No, Alexander specialized in facilitating the sale of bakeries. I don't get it. I don't understand why they hired them. I didn't see.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  I don't know. There had to be some connection. I doubt if they just yellow paged that, you know?

• 38:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, maybe they were trying to help their careers. I don't know. But it was.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Somebody probably knows. I bet someone will let us know.

• 38:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So the prosecution had a bunch of federal prosecutors led by Irving Sapol, who time called the nation's number one legal hunter of top communists. Not who you want prosecuting you if you are a spy for the Soviets. And then the judge was also not the judge you wanted to draw. His name was Irving Kaufman, and he was known for hating communists. And he used his bench to essentially punish them as harshly as he possibly could. He was the kind of judge who would actually add 10 years onto whatever sentence the DOJ was asking for in trials of communist spies. He was that kind of judge, and that's who they drew.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  You know, it'd be funny, as if who let us know about the connection to those attorneys was Billy Joel. What if he sent us an email, said, I know this guy. And attached, you'll find an additional verse that I cooked up for you.

• 39:11Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  To We Didn't Start the Fire, where I explain about the bakery guy.

• 39:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he'd be like, PS, what's this with my worst song crap, Chuck?

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Right. Oh, man. I can't believe I said that out loud. We might have to edit that out. What I meant to say was, there is no bad Billy Joel song.

• 39:26Josh Clark?

  That was perfect. There you go. We'll just clip that out and put it over what you said originally.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  No, I'm gonna leave it in. I'm gonna stand by it. Hey, listen, it was a big hit. Billy, if you're listening, I love almost everything you ever did, but you can't win them all.

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  That's a great lesson to learn, Billy Joel.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  Really is.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Okay, so, one thing we should point out, getting back on track here about this trial and the prosecution which hated communists. The jury of 12 had one black man, one white woman, and no Jewish members on the jury. The other were 10 white Christian men who all were in favor of the death penalty.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which, you know, in their defense, like, you can't be on a Capitol jury if you are in favor of the death penalty, but still, it was not the kind of position that you would want to find yourself in. Like, this is a-

• 40:21Speaker 02

  I never thought about that. I guess that's true, huh?

• 40:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think we talked about it in the jury episode. I'm pretty sure. That's where I got it from, which means it could be wrong, but, um, yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  If you were against the death penalty, you'd just gum up the works. They don't want you in there.

• 40:34Josh Clark?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:37Josh Clark?

  So, they're in a pickle, I guess is what you want to call it, and they're still like, "This is all wrong. We're just, we're maintaining our innocence." And the prosecution said, "Oh, yeah? We'll sit there while we trot out a bunch of witnesses against you guys." They brought Max Elickter, who was a classmate with Morton Sobel and Julius, remember?

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  Ruth's brother-in-law, Louis Abel, and I guess that was from, I guess she had a sister. I didn't see that anywhere. George Bernhardt, who was Julius's doctor, Harry Gold, the courier for the Soviets, and Elizabeth Bentley, who was also a former spy, and each one had quite a story to tell.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if you're wondering, like, why did they get Julius's doctor in there? It's because he testified that Julius had inquired about going to Mexico and like, "What inoculations do I need to get if I go to Mexico?" Like, very suddenly. And the prosecution was like, hey, and I just made up the very suddenly part, but the prosecution basically took it that way and was like, hey, this is evidence. He was gonna, he was gonna flee, he was gonna go to Mexico, get that doctor in here.

• 41:42Josh Clark?

  Right. So let's see, Elizabeth Bentley, the former spy, she said, I saw him, or somebody who looked like him, once talking to Jacob Golos, who was a known Soviet operative and the head of the Communist Party of the USA, in Knickerbocker Village, the KBV, no less, in 1942. That's a little thin. Some of the other ones were a little more damning, too.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, I know I sounded very dumb earlier when you said KBV right after Knickerbocker Village and I didn't pick up on that. In my defense, I thought it would have been KV because Knickerbocker is one word. That's what confused me.

• 42:18Josh Clark?

  Yes, but people like to, like-

• 42:21Speaker 02

  No, I agree. I'm just letting everyone know. I'm not a, not a 100% moron. I'm just 50% moron.

• 42:27Josh Clark?

  No one thinks you're a moron, or even 50% of a moron.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  You should read the internet.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  People, there's plenty of people who don't like me either.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 42:38Josh Clark?

  You can't take that personally.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  There are people that hate us. No, I don't. I don't read that stuff.

• 42:42Josh Clark?

  Good. Again, they can soak their heads.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  That's right. Kick sand, touch grass, all those things.

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  So like, so like I said, touch grass?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  You haven't heard that?

• 42:53Josh Clark?

  No. Is that, like, they've been knocked down?

• 42:56Speaker 02

  No, I think touch grass is a more modern thing, like when people are just social media fighting, someone will say, touch grass, like, you know, get off the computer, go outside.

• 43:04Josh Clark?

  Yes, yes, yeah, okay.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  I think that's what that means.

• 43:06Josh Clark?

  Weirdly, I came across it for the first time within the last couple of weeks and I promptly forgot it.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know what they should say? Smoke grass. Quit internet fighting. Go smoke some weed.

• 43:18Josh Clark?

  So what about Max Elickter?

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Uh, who was that? Oh, he was the former roommate, I think. And he came out in testimony against him too, right?

• 43:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he said Julius tried to recruit me as a spy.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 43:32Josh Clark?

  Not good. Louis Abel, Ruth's brother-in-law, said, hey, I got some money from Ruth and David, and if you know David, that is weird. So I asked him where they got it, and he said Julius gave it to them, and I suspect for spying. And Manny Block stood up and said, objection. And the judge said, overruled. You caught me? You call me lover?

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, his dad's over there rolling some biscuits out.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Oh, I'm glad you said that, because I have to get this out there. I don't know where it came from, but it will not leave my head.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 44:06Josh Clark?

  That Sir Mix-a-Lot buttermilk biscuits song? It's just-

• 44:10Speaker 02

  I don't know that song.

• 44:10Josh Clark?

  Parts of it are, you don't?

• 44:12Speaker 02

  No, and I love Sir Mix-a-Lot, I just, I don't know the song.

• 44:15Josh Clark?

  It's a weird, like, novelty song that he had, like, very early on, surely from his first album.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Not like the rest of his serious work?

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Exactly. It's even more novel than his later stuff.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, man, Seattle's own, what a legend.

• 44:29Josh Clark?

  I didn't know he was from Seattle.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, because when they did the, do you remember the Judgment Night movie and that amazing soundtrack?

• 44:37Josh Clark?

  I remember the movie.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Well, the movie wasn't great, but the soundtrack was great because they paired rock bands with hip-hop artists, because that was a big thing at the time.

• 44:43Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  And Sir Mix-a-Lot and Mud Honey were paired because they were Seattleites, and their song was awesome.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  Nice. Remember Body Count with Ice-T?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I saw them at the first Lollapalooza.

• 44:55Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  That was when Ice-T was still making music and wasn't like, he's on that, he's on that cop show forever now, right?

• 45:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, this is a rapper who had a song called Cop Killer.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  And he plays a cop, and apparently he's gone through some, like, metamorphosis in the eyes of police and people who support police.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 45:18Josh Clark?

  From hating him to being like, hey, he's actually kind of a good guy, because he plays a cop on TV so well. It's really interesting.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  No, I remember at the time, boy, he was persona non grata for law enforcement.

• 45:29Josh Clark?

  For sure, and Ice-T didn't care. He's like, just watch, I'll be back in the most surprising way you can possibly imagine.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  As literal Ice-T?

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  He's like, well, not that surprising.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Right, the second most surprising thing. You mean, you play a cop on a TV show?

• 45:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he said, yep, bingo. That's what he was known to say, bingo.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Oh, man. We're getting really sidetracked. This is a fun one.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Who knew the Rosenbergs were gonna bring this out?

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  I did not know.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  So it was a three-week trial and all. Like you said, they till the end said they were not guilty. The trial concluded in March of 1951. Guilty, all three defendants. Sentenced the third guy, Morton Sobel, to 30 years in prison. Sentenced the Rosenbergs to death, saying their crime was worse than murder and that their work caused the communist aggression in Korea. So they were really taking the fall for a lot here. There were a lot of appeals that were launched by Manny Block and company. Petitioning the Supreme Court delayed things by a couple of years. All of those failed. But he did launch a pretty successful media campaign that got a lot of people very interested

• 46:40Speaker 02

  in the Rosenbergs' sentence.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he finally got a newspaper to agree to look into the case. It was the National Guardian, a very left-wing paper. And they investigated it and produced a very sympathetic, what I take to be long-form article on the Rosenbergs' case. And that that article created a bunch of other press, which spread further and further, really drummed up public sympathy to the point where they were holding vigils where a thousand people would show up in cities around the world in support of them. And people thought like, this is not, this is not right. Pablo Picasso, Albert Einstein, the Pope, they all said like, these people should not be executed.

• 47:25Josh Clark?

  Certainly not Ethel should be executed. And the judge is like, I don't, I can't hear you. He had his fingers in his ears like, la, la, la.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there are historians that say like, this all just sort of organically came about because of this press. The DOJ, of course, was like, no, no, no. The Communist Party of the United States and the Communist Party overall launched a propaganda campaign on behalf of the Rosenbergs. So, you know, it's a bit of a he said, she said, or they said, they said in this case.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  But here's the deal on the execution. You said it was a game of chicken early on, and I'm sure people that noticed that. That mention, we're like, what is Josh talking about? A game of chicken? And this is what you were talking about was the idea was even Herbert Hoover did not want to execute them. And it was all a ploy to try up until the last moment even, there were supposedly people on the, on the walk to the electric trailer that were like, still want to change your mind? Because you don't have to die right now if you want to give up some names.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, so the, the execution was essentially leverage, just like they used Ethel, they, they railroaded Ethel into a conviction to use as leverage against Julius to get him to flip on other spies. They used the, the death sentence in the exact same way. And they expected one or both of them to be like, okay, okay, that's fine. It's not, we got two young kids at home. Let's all just cool off. We'll give you some names and some information. And Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg did not do that. And in fact, there was the head, I think he was a deputy attorney general at the time, who said Ethel Rosenberg called our bluff.

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  So rather than one party, the DOJ or the Rosenbergs veering off at the last second, they crashed head on and Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg were put to death, even though essentially no one thought that was the right thing to do. And that's how they went down.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, didn't you find too that Hoover even himself got in touch with the judge and was like, hey, listen, we don't want you to install the death penalty here. And the judge was, had his fingers in his ear.

• 49:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the FBI took an official stance that, that Ethel in particular should not be executed. That was the official stance of the FBI and it still happened anyway.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  It wasn't a good look. I mean, they were worried about the optics for sure of, especially because they were Jewish and, you know, coming off the heels of World War II. And they were like, they've got two young kids. You cannot execute this woman.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And even more so, Manny Block, remember? He was like an appeal machine. He had one last hail Mary appeal.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  That was on his, that was on the billboard on the highway.

• 50:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. With somebody holding a check for a million dollars that he got for them, for their bakery. So he, he filed one last appeal and he basically said, dude. You're going to execute two Jewish people at the beginning of the Sabbath. Do you know how bad that's going to upset the Jewish community worldwide? And Judge Kaufman, who was Jewish himself, said, you know, I hadn't really thought of that. And Manny Block's like, great, so let's postpone this indefinitely. And Judge Kaufman said, no, no, we're just going to move it three hours earlier before the Sabbath starts.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were put to death at 8:00 PM. And that judge was a real SOB. They had a funeral in Brooklyn on June 21st, 1953, where 10,000 people reportedly attended. They were buried, finally accepted after some closer cemetery said no at the Wellwood Jewish Cemetery in Long Island. And the boys, it's just still hard to believe they didn't, that not, that one of them didn't, you know, for the sake of being a parent to their kids, didn't recant, but they didn't.

• 51:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  And those boys, Robert and Michael, were adopted by Anne and Abel Mirapole. Little interesting side note here, Abel wrote the song Strange Fruit.

• 51:29Josh Clark?

  Which, have you ever heard the Susie and the Banshees version of that?

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Ooh, no, but that's great.

• 51:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's really good. That's how I first heard that song.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Another reference to the first Lollapalooza even, who knew?

• 51:40Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's really something.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Uh, I know, right? Did not expect that. Billy Joel is spinning in his piano stool right now.

• 51:49Josh Clark?

  He's like, I know I should have accepted that offer.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I know. Michael was, got a PhD in economics and Robert Rosenberg became an attorney.

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  And both of them, they've dedicated their lives to trying to clear their parents' names. Finally, after years and years and years, they admitted like, okay, Dad was a spy, but not Mom.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:08Josh Clark?

  And you said that they were criticized by some people for, for basically choosing loyalty to Joseph Stalin over their two children and leaving them behind. And David Greenglass, again, who lied to, and got his sister and brother-in-law killed. I said, they were stupid. He said, that was a really stupid thing for them to do, to not accept some sort of bargain to take the, the death penalty off the table. That's his opinion on the whole thing.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  That's what I said too.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  And, oh, I should say real quick, the reason that the brothers, the sons, finally were like, okay, Dad was a spy, was because those Venona cables we talked about earlier.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:50Josh Clark?

  They were finally released, starting in the 90s, and it showed quite clearly that Julius was a very enthusiastic spy for the Soviet Union. And probably Ethel definitely knew about it, but she may have been involved in recruiting Ruth. And if she did that, she was definitely a spy. But again, that doesn't change most people's thoughts that they probably should not have been executed.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, totally. Because, I mean, that's a, that's a whole different argument, you know? It's like, maybe they were guilty, but you should not have put them to death. That's what a lot of people seem to think.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, including people from their own spy ring, didn't even come close to the death sentence. It was just specifically leverage that just never got taken away. Because the government wasn't about to be like, oh, okay, you got us. All right, we won't kill you.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't do that.

• 53:39Josh Clark?

  It's just crazy.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Boy, this is a fun one, and there was a lot of jokes. I hope it didn't come across as insensitive. I mean, that's kind of what we do here, so not be insensitive, but just try to, you know, kind of make jokes about stuff.

• 53:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you can't laugh about everything, then what can you laugh at?

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 53:59Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 54:02Josh Clark?

  Actually, I don't know if that's exactly true, but still. Since Chuck said exactly.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  That's not to examine that one.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  Exactly. It's listener mail time.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  That's right. This is about, we heard from a lot of our Canadian friends.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  We love it when Canada points out something that they know that we don't. And in this case, it's about Cole's Notes. Great episode about the Cliffs Notes, guys. The name rings a bell to me, probably through American movies and TV. But as a millennial Canadian, I'm far more familiar with Cole's Notes. Cole has a legendary bookstore across Canada, and so every location had a stand of Cole's Notes booklets, focused on books and plays covering, covered in the Canadian school curriculum. I even remember reading them in school alongside Shakespeare plays. To understand them better, yes, they were often used to cram before a test without reading the material. They were also used as Cole intended. Chapters slash Indigo is the big Canadian book retailer now, and they bought out the Coles locations, but they still print and sell Coles notes today. So that guy did all right in the Canadian

• 55:04Speaker 02

  market. Thanks for making me a little smarter each week. And that is from Natalie Gudormson, Gudormson, great name, from Alberta, Canada.

• 55:15Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Natalie. Thanks for making us a little smarter this week. We appreciate it big time. Yeah. And if you want to be like Natalie and tell us something we didn't know, we love that kind of thing. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 55:48Josh Clark?

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• 56:29Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer Fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Wetter, cleans better, and Dude Wipes flushable wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

• 57:11Josh Clark?

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