Editorial Cartoons: Art as Satire

Editorial, or political cartoons, have a rich history in the United States and abroad. And though the Golden Age may have passed, the use of images to create satire and sway public opinion is still alive and well. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. And that's it. It's the and um edition.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is about editorial cartoons, AKA political cartoons.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  They are one in the same. They're, you know, usually appear in the traditionally in the editorial section or the opinion section of newspapers. So that's why you can call them either. And this is a profession that that appears to be dying out. If you look at the number of editorial cartoonists that are like full time staff at major newspapers.

• 1:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Cause there used to be more than 2,000 about a hundred years ago. Now there's less than 20. And Dave, you know, helped us with this and found that stat. And I think we were both initially like, oh, my God, they're all going away. Not necessarily true. Those are full time staffers on newspapers. Newspapers are in trouble. So that's a big reason why we'll get to that. But there are still plenty of editorial cartoonists and political cartoonists mainly working online.

• 2:21Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. And for syndication companies, like you can work for a syndicate and they'll distribute it to newspapers that want to run your political cartoon, just like with comics.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's, I won't say like, we're at peak, the golden age of it, but it's, it's still alive and well, and just sort of a different form.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I've seen the golden age referred to as in the 19th century. And I'm like, these people didn't live through the 80s. That was the golden age, baby.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I saw, if I had a dime for every like cartoonish drawing of Tip O'Neill or Ronald Reagan, I saw growing up as a kid.

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I didn't even, like, who are these people?

• 3:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, that's a really great point that they editorial cartoons are like of the moment. Sometimes like of the day where they like, they'll still make sense later that week, but they're not hidden because something already changed or moved on. And they don't as such. It's very rare that editorial cartoon can still like land the way it originally did. That means that whatever it was talking about was so historic that people decades on know what the, what like the ins and outs of it that the, the political cartoon is referring to. But for the most part, it's like daily minutia of ongoing politics and government.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  And if you just go back like 10 or 15 years, it's like, I forgot John Boehner even existed until I went back and looked at some of the old political cartoons. And it's so important at the time. But, you know, all these years on, it does not matter what that political cartoon was saying. At the time it wasn't. That's a huge point about those things. That's why.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Michael Dukakis drove a tank?

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  I remember that.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Who's Michael Dukakis?

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  Yep. I remember. And Kitty.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Funny stuff. Oh yeah, his wife Kitty, that's right. And Dan Quayle spells potato wrong. Like, it's so funny to kind of think about the greatest political hits of our childhood.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  Yep. Yeah, it's, it's really far away, Chuck.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like you said, it's sort of like greatest hits. You can look back at some Nixon Watergate political cartoons and totally get it and they land. But they're not always funny. And that's the whole point of this, or not the whole point, but it's satire. It's satire can be super, super funny. Like if you read The Onion or something like that, or a well-made satirical film or television show. But it's a different kind of humor. A lot of times satire isn't necessarily laugh out loud stuff, because the point of satire usually is to influence what somebody thinks about something through, in this case, an image.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  Right. One of the explanations I saw for satire is that it uses like a surface level presentation of a point to point out that the counterpoint is actually the more sensible thing.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  I can, if I thought about that and saw it written down, I could probably figure out exactly.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Okay, I've got one for you. Alexander Pope said, praise undeserved is satire in disguise. No, still nothing? Okay, go watch the movie Soul Plane or Brian's Song, and you will know what I'm talking about with satire.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Brian's Song. You know, they used to use that in crying studies. That's the one thing I remember about Brian's Song was when I was a kid, I saw a news report where they're like, this new movie is so sad. And it showed people like in a room watching Brian's Song with these little tear gutters strapped to their face.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And just like bawling at that movie.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  And I'm sure the political cartoon of the day about that had people crying. And somebody said, are they watching Brian's Song? And the guy says, no, they just found out Ronald Reagan was re-elected governor.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Well, we also, you and I, as we said on record many times before, grew up as adherents to Mad Magazine. And they didn't, I mean, they did political cartoons, essentially. It just wasn't for a newspaper, but there was plenty of that stuff in there.

• 6:27Josh Clark?

  Nice point. One of the other things about political cartoons is they present an opinion, they do it in a way that's humorous, that's recognizable. You don't have to know how to read, which was for a long time, the point of political cartoons. And it's presented in a way so that it takes everything you know, it makes assumptions about what you know, but usually they're pretty good at that. And it takes everything you know and can turn it on its head, can point out the folly, the ridiculousness of usually governments, politicians, policies, that kind of stuff. But sometimes it's aimed unfairly at groups of people.

• 7:10Josh Clark?

  The other point about it is that the actual types of art it uses have been shown to neurologically like hit us different than, say, like a photograph.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, like when you draw a caricature of someone or exaggerate, exaggerate?

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  That was beautiful.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  The three-year-old, if you exaggerate something.

• 7:32Josh Clark?

  Wait, hold on.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Right?

• 7:34Josh Clark?

  You can't do it as well as you.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  That's all right, that's pretty good. Yeah, it has more of a, like neurologically more of an impact than an actual photograph of somebody doing something even ridiculous.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's called a supernormal stimulus or a super stimuli, which is it just hits your brain that much harder. And so the caricature, like it's just something, people just figured out over time, building little by little, to create like the optimal political cartoon, which apparently popped up around the 1950s.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Well, or if you go to, you know, a theme park or the streets of Paris or something, and you see a caricature artist parked next to the realistic, like I'll do a realistic pencil sketch of you.

• 8:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  You got like one person over there. You got 10 people in line trying to get their big old fat head version of themselves.

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they want to be super stimulated.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Can I amend one thing that you said? You said that they use humor. Almost always that's the case, but some of my favorite political cartoons over the years, sometimes they'll have just the really brutally gut punchy sad ones.

• 8:46Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  That are very, very effective, you know?

• 8:49Josh Clark?

  Hilarious.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, they definitely, it doesn't always have to be humor. You're right, for sure.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  But what it always has to do is prove some kind of a point. There's never a political cartoon that's like, oh, this is just funny or something.

• 9:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Because that's a comic stripper. That's Family Circus.

• 9:09Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So I say we go back, way back, to potentially the origin of political cartoons, which were religious in nature, because back in the 16th century, when Martin Luther was trying to reform the Catholic Church and ended up just kind of spinning off his own jam, religion was politics. They were interchangeable. It was one and the same. So when he started printing woodcut cartoons that were really unflattering depictions of the Pope and the bishops and the cardinals who aided the Pope, he was making a political statement.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  And so some people say that some of these prints from like way back in 1545, there's one called The Birth and Origin of the Pope, that this was essentially the first political cartoon ever printed. Because that's another thing, too. You have to have a mass medium to spread this idea. And so this was shortly after the printing press was invented and almost off the bat, Martin Luther was among the people who were using it to make political statements using cartoons.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  That's right. And if you're at home saying like, I bet he did that because so many people couldn't read yet, you're exactly right. The printing press was brand new and that changed literacy for the world, basically. But right after it was invented, a lot of people still couldn't read. And so he knew that if he wanted to hit his target audience in the right way, The Birth and Origin of the Pope was a good way to do it. We'll describe a few of these that are sort of easy to picture. We're not going to get in the weeds, I think, kind of describing in detail pictures on an audio show, but this one is very simple. It was the Pope and the Cardinals. Being pooped out by a she-devil.

• 11:01Josh Clark?

  And then, yeah, and then nursed by other she-devils. Medusa's breastfeeding. It looks like a bishop in one, one part of this. It's a, it's really something. And that was, I think, I think I said 1545. And then

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  Nothing happened for 200 years. And then a guy came along named William Hogarth. And those of you who really, really, really pay attention to the stuff we say, might, might find that that name rings a bell. And that would be because we talked about William Hogarth in our gin episode.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  That's right. There was a political cartoon he drew about, you know, drunks, basically. Living at the corner of Beer Street and Gin Lane. And that was Hogarth, who's considered the grandfather of political cartoons. He was a serious painter. But then he got into making fun of, of rich folks in London.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  Yes, for sure. And he also, it was a social commentary. So it was satire. It was exaggerated. That's another kind of key part of political cartoons. And it, it made a point about, in this case, society rather than politics. And so as, as a result, William Hogarth is considered the grandfather of political cartoons. He was not making political cartoons, but he definitely set out some of the points on the table that would later be picked up. Actually fairly quickly by printers, publishers and cartoonists.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  Among whom was Benjamin Franklin, who started, he ran what's considered the first American political cartoon back in 1754.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that was only, you know, a couple of decades after Hogarth. Yeah. Hogarth.

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  Hogwart?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Uh, his earliest work. So it was sort of in the same era and as we all know, or maybe some people don't know this, Benjamin Franklin ran a newspaper.

• 13:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Uh, the Philadelphia Gazette. And it was a cartoon, it was a, it was a cut up rattlesnake with each section of the snake, uh, being a colony, like, you know, New York had the abbreviation of the colony and it said, "Join or Die."

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  And it was, you know, to try and rally people to unify against, uh, France, um, in the lead up to the French and Indian War. And he is credited as, uh, even though he, he probably didn't draw this thing, he ran it, he is credited for making the rattlesnake a popular symbol for the colonies of the United, the, well, not United States yet, the colonies.

• 13:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  That's all I need to say.

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  And that's a pretty famous image, that cut up snake, as far as

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:40Josh Clark?

  the US is concerned. Um, but that was almost like a little, uh, sidestep for political cartoons, because again, nothing happened for a good 50 years. And then along came James Gilray. He is considered the father of political cartoons. He was drawing satirical images to lampoon and point out the folly of, um, people in charge. In this case, the, um, King George III was his favorite, um, his favorite target because he was British. He was also anti-colonial too. Um, and so there was one very famous one that he did that depicts, um, the prime minister at the time, William Pitt, with Napoleon carving up the world.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  To eat.

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's in the form of a plum pudding, also known as plum poutine. And, um, Pitt and Napoleon are, are sitting at a table carving it up, just greedily eating the rest of the world. And apparently Napoleon was well aware of James Gilray, cause he had a pretty great quote, didn't he?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I used to do good Napoleon. I'm not gonna try though.

• 14:46Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Uh, he said he, that Gilroy did more than all the armies of Europe to bring me down. Uh, and if you look at this cartoon, it's, uh, it, it really sort of looks like what we know as a modern political editorial cartoon. Uh, it's really, really cool looking. It looks great. The art is great, but it just, it sort of has that look. It seems like one of the, or probably the first person who was making these cartoons that look like what we have today.

• 15:12Josh Clark?

  Right. That's why Gilroy is considered the father of the whole thing.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:17Josh Clark?

  And he came around, I think that the plum pudding in danger was the name of the one we were just talking about. That was in 1805. And at the same time, magazines started, um, being established and founded around this time that were dedicated to satire. So the, the form, the art form of political cartoons and political satirical magazines came together at the very beginning of the 19th century, not just in Britain, but France. Turns out France is basically the, the spear's point of satire.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  Did not know that, but that's, it's the truth, everybody.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  I remember when the Charlie Hebdo stuff came out, and we're gonna talk about that toward, in the act three here, but, uh, that's when I sort of learned like how, you know, astute and on point their satire had been for a long, long time. I didn't know that previously.

• 16:07Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Doesn't seem like a very French thing, but I don't know. Maybe it is.

• 16:11Josh Clark?

  I didn't either, but there was a guy from, uh, the early 19th century, I think, named, uh, Enore Domier. Uh, and Domier, um, actually got in trouble. I think he actually went to prison for, um, for his political cartoons, right?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. In the 1830s, they, the French government sort of relaxed their laws against censorship. And so he had a little bit more, um, leeway, I guess, to operate. And initially in 1831, he was threatened with a 6,000 franc fine in 1831. That's, I don't know what the conversion is, but that's gotta be a lot of dough.

• 16:49Josh Clark?

  It's 45,000 US dollars today, which you'd think it'd be way more, but that's what.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Did you really do that?

• 16:56Josh Clark?

  I found a Swedish currency converter, historic currency converter.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  So inflation and currency conversions.

• 17:04Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Amazing. And that's why you're Josh Clark.

• 17:09Josh Clark?

  I didn't make this website. I just used it.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  6,000 franc fine, he drew a caricature of King Louis Philippe with a pear for a head. And then when he was threatened with this fine, he put out a possibly one of the first, or the first multi-panel cartoon, a four-panel cartoon showing the metamorphosis from this king going like he's the king as a caricature, and now he looks a little more like a pear, a little more like a pear, and then he just has a pear for a head.

• 17:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the whole point was, come on, like, the guy looks like a pear. And it's ridiculous that you would try to fine me $6,000 for pointing out something so obvious.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:52Josh Clark?

  And I guess he avoided that fine at the time, but afterward, he's like, okay, I really need to get in trouble, so I'm going to create one called Gargantua. And this one was way worse than than saying the king looks like he has a pear for a head. This was the king giant, like, gorging himself on taxes that were being fed directly to him by the poor people. He's sitting on his throne, and then he's pooping out, like, tax breaks and special treatment for the wealthy friends of his. And that one got him in trouble.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good cartoon. It's like, it's a ramp from the ground, straight up to this giant's mouth with people in their wheelbarrows, just like, walking up and getting in his mouth and being pooped out as spoils.

• 18:42Josh Clark?

  It's a great, great piece of art, too.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Josh Clark?

  Not just the political version of her political aspect, it's beautiful as far as art goes.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  But that got him six months in the huskow. But they let him out, and he started working again. King Philippe was asked about this, and, you know, kind of like, why are you cracking down on this, but people can have a pamphlet printed with words that are very critical of you? And he said, "A pamphlet is no more than a violation of opinion, a caricature amounts to an act of violence."

• 19:14Josh Clark?

  You started out with almost a French accent there for a second.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  And then I debated it, then I came back and then it was British for a hot second. And then it was just regal, general regal.

• 19:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really did evolve that quickly, too.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Failed.

• 19:30Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, King Louis Philippe put his finger on something that that there's something special or something different about a political cartoon that is way different than, say, a news article or even a photograph. You know, you can make the point, the news article for centuries and centuries could only be read by a select number of people. Everybody could get a political cartoon, but there's something more than that, too. There's there's just something about a political cartoon that people who've been taken down by political cartoons have have been able to put their finger on and said, there's this is way worse than just writing about me for some reason.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that tracks to even to like, if you think about in in like, high school, if a teacher caught you writing like a note to your friend that said, you know, Mr. Clark is such a jerk.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  I think that would be taken different than if someone drew a picture of Mr. Clark like bent over being paddled by a line of students or something, you know?

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Don't you think?

• 20:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Or would it be equal?

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  No, it would it'd be equal unless you put like stink lines coming off of me. And then it'd be really hurtful.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Oh, man, stink lines. Who was the first person to do the stink lines?

• 20:46Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I'll bet it was a political cartoonist, too. Wasn't that great?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 20:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about one of the more famous political cartoonists of all time, Thomas Nast.

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• 23:11Speaker 02

  All right, we're back. Josh promised talk of Thomas Nast. He's the most famous American political cartoonist, probably, very influential cartoonist of the 19th century. And that's, you know, early on, you were like, what? What was going on back then? Well, the Civil War was going on back then. And he was a German immigrant who drew for Harper's Weekly, when Harper's Weekly was really growing in their readership with a lot of pro-union political cartoons.

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There was one, I think, kind of tracks with what you were saying. It's not at all funny, but it's super poignant.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Called Compromise with the South.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:52Josh Clark?

  The Democrats had run on a platform that the Civil War had been a failure up to this point for the 1864 election, when Lincoln was standing for reelection, and that we should basically work with the South to just forget about the Civil War and end this. And Thomas Nast didn't like that one bit. So this compromise with the South image shows an amputee, a Union soldier, standing on a crutch, shaking hands with his head bowed, shaking hands with a triumphant Confederate officer who's got-

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Jefferson Davis.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Is it Jefferson Davis? He's got like his boot standing, one foot on a Union soldier's grave. And Columbia, who represents the United States, is weeping at that grave. And then also, poignantly, there's a Union soldier, an African-American Union soldier and his wife, who are now on the Southern side, and they're shackled.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:47Josh Clark?

  It's back to being slaves. So-

• 24:50Speaker 02

  It's a gut punch, man.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  It is. It's a really good example of a political cartoon that isn't funny, but really gets the point across. And apparently, it had a huge impact on America, especially the Union, right?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, some people say that had a lot to do with Lincoln getting reelected. Lincoln referred to Thomas Nast at one point as our best recruiting agent. And in the 1868 election, Ulysses S. Grant credited his win to the sword of Sheridan and the pencil of Nast.

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  I had never heard of Columbia, but you'll see in a lot of these political cartoons, Columbia as a representation of America was used a lot. And I think, this is just a guess, I didn't look it up, but it seems like Lady Liberty, Statue of Liberty, has sort of replaced Columbia as far as the cartoon ship goes. Because anytime there's like a, sort of one of the sad gut punch ones, it's some shameful thing America has done and like Lady Liberty is crying somewhere or something like that.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. I think Uncle Sam also displaced Columbia as well. And Thomas Nast is the one who popularized the current image of Uncle Sam with his hat and

• 26:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 26:05Josh Clark?

  All that. That was Thomas Nast as well. He had a huge, huge impact as a political cartoonist.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Well, he did the, he was the guy who came up with the elephant and the donkey for the two political parties.

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  And also popularized our current conception, American conception of Santa Claus.

• 26:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because remember, German immigrants are the ones who really brought Christmas to the United States and Thomas Nast was a German immigrant, so he loved Christmas. And yeah, he gave us our version of Santa Claus. The thing that he's most remembered for as a political cartoonist, though, is that he is credited with taking down William Boss Tweed, who was one of the most corrupt political officials in the history of the United States. Apparently in a decade, he is thought to have stolen a billion dollars from New York City in today's money.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 27:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  He's popped up a lot in our, obviously, our New York centric episodes about the history of New York. Very corrupt person for the, you know, Tammany Hall political machine. And I think Nast had more than 140 Boss Tweed cartoons alone in Harpers.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it was a, it was a big deal. Boss Tweed, very much like King Louis Philippe, was aware that like these things were having an effect on him. And he apparently said, "Stop them damn pictures. I don't care a straw for your newspaper articles. My constituents can't read, but they can't help seeing them damn pictures." And I mean, there was a lot of reporting at the time by some of the New York newspapers, like about Boss Tweed. And they definitely had some effect on getting him investigated and ultimately put into prison where he died. But, um, like you really can't, um, like you could put all those articles and combine them pretty much equally with Thomas Nast's political cartoons and be like,

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  "This is what, what took down Boss Tweed, these two things basically equally."

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, and you know, there are a lot of times I think people think about political cartoons as coming from the political left or, uh, the, you know, the liberal progressive side. And that is certainly true, but they're, you know, all kinds of newspapers have always had political cartoons and all sorts of issues have been attacked from all angles from political cartoonists over the years. There've been, you know, plenty of examples of both. And Nast was one of those, so it was sort of a contradiction. There's, you know, we'll talk a little bit about immigration and political cartoons throughout history. And he was one who kind of hit it from both sides.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  He, he would draw one, one year in 1870, criticizing anti-immigration, uh, the Know Nothing Party. And that was called "Throwing Down the Ladder By Which They Rose." And about a year later, had political cartoons out, um, you know, criticizing Irish immigrants as violent drunks taking over the country.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  Right. Um, yeah, and this was a time when immigration was huge, huge issue in the United States. For probably the first time, it became like a flashpoint, like issue that you could run an entire campaign on.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:20Josh Clark?

  For example, there was a cartoon from 1903 in a satirical weekly called Judge, called Unrestricted Dumping Ground.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Man, this one's tough.

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  It is. And there's a lot going on in this

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:35Josh Clark?

  cartoon. Um, there's its color, which is it really pops. But Uncle Sam is basically standing at the shores of the United States. And there's a bunch of immigrants swimming to the shore, but they're rats with human faces, which number one is unsettling, but number two is really offensive. And they're being dumped out of basically, it looks almost like a mailbox or something that says the slums of Europe. Uh, and they're, they're, they're being dumped into New York Harbor. And Uncle Sam's just standing there watching, wondering if he can do anything about it. And then William McKinley is floating in like a cloud. The reason William McKinley was featured is because he was president. He was assassinated by a guy named Leo Cholgosz, uh, in 1899.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  And Cholgosz born in Michigan, but he was considered a, uh, an immigrant, uh, because his parents were immigrants. So like, this was the kind of stuff that was being run, uh, in papers and magazines at the time, basically saying like, like immigrants are rats and like, you can't let them in.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and those rats also, just to further drive the point home, they had labels on these individual, uh, human rats that said like mafia, uh, anarchist socialist. So it was, you know, uh, pretty, um, on the nose, I guess you could say.

• 30:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Uh, there was another ad, um, as far as the immigration front goes, uh, Teddy Roosevelt, at one point talked about hyphenated Americans, uh, being able to vote like that shouldn't happen, Irish, American, German, American. And, uh, this one was from Puck Magazine, which was, uh, is that American? Was that British?

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  I thought that was British.

• 31:18Josh Clark?

  I think Punch was British and Puck was American.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Punch was British. Um, but it had a caption, again, Uncle Sam saying, why should I let these freaks vote when they're only half American?

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's, it's. It's a really bizarre cartoon. It's tough to describe, but go look that one up. So one of the other things we said is that political cartoons sometimes also target policies, social issues. And there was a really good one that Dave turned up called From the Cradle to the Mill that really got across child labor or the need for child labor laws. It's this innocent looking little, probably five-year-old kid, I think he's holding a teddy bear still, and this dark, ghoulish spirit named necessity.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Like a grim reaper, basically.

• 32:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, essentially, has come into the child's house and is taking him by the hand to lead him off to the mill for work. And it really, it gets the point across, like, this was from 1912, and if child labor was still an issue today, you could run it today. It just really just captured what the problem was.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was a time, you know, we talked about the, in France, you know, when the one political cartoonist was put in jail for six months. In America, at this point, there were limits on freedom of speech. So in 1917, that artist who drew that was targeted by the freshly passed Espionage Act, which was, part of which was an attempt to silence critics of us going into World War I. And they almost did put him in prison for a cartoon called Having Their Fling. And this is a pretty brutal one, too, and it showed the, like, editors, capitalist politicians and preachers, like, cheering entry into, you know, an orgy of death, basically.

• 33:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that one hits as well, for sure. Speaking of world wars, World War II was a big, kind of accelerator of political cartoons. Because by this time, newspapers have really hit in the United States and around the world. But there were a lot of newspapers in the middle of the century, the 20th century. And so World War II, like, produced a lot of fodder for political cartoons, one of whom, one of the, I don't know if he was one of the most famous at the time, but today, one of the most noteworthy was Dr. Seuss, who I think we mentioned in our Dr. Seuss episode, was a political cartoonist for a little while during World War I or II.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Theodor Geisel, yeah, we did talk about this because some of the stuff, he worked for a New York newspaper called PM for, I think, two or three years in the early 40s. And it's, you know, it looks like Dr. Seuss stuff in his total signature style. But he would, would, you know, like, some of them would be like against racist and discriminatory hiring practices and policies that are hampering the war effort. But he also, and we talked about this in the Seuss episode, you know, many years later, was kind of called out for having a lot of racist caricatures drawn in his, in his work.

• 34:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, especially there's one of Tojo, who ran Japan at the time during World War II. And the, in just the most racist Japanese stereotype you can possibly imagine, but Dr. Seuss style.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, there was another prominent cartoonist that actually emerged from World War II, like was drawing editorial cartoons on the front lines of World War II. His name was Bill Malden. I want to say Maudlin so bad, but it's Malden.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 34:58Josh Clark?

  And if you see pictures of him, when he was, you know, drawing these cartoons during World War II, he looks like a baby. He looks like the kid that necessity comes and takes from his house to the mill in that one 1912 political cartoon.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Now I'm looking up a picture of him because I didn't actually look up the artist. And yeah, he, he looks like a child.

• 35:19Josh Clark?

  He really does. And he came up with two of the most, the most beloved characters, recurring characters in the history of political cartoons, in part because there's not really that many recurring characters in political cartoons, right? But there were two GIs named Willie and Joe, and he just depicted their life in the front lines, humorously for the most part, but sometimes kind of poignantly as well.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And these, a lot of times were just, I don't think we mentioned, like, you know, sometimes it'll be an image with a, kind of like at the back of the New Yorker with those cartoons, they'll have a caption.

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  Right. The New Yorker is stealing my ideas. Ziggy at the complete window.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Most of these had captions, the Willie and Joe stuff, but not all political cartoons use words at all. Sometimes very few words. Sometimes it's words just in the image, like on a sign or, you know, something like that. But sometimes it's like a character saying something.

• 36:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's one that I think really kind of stands out of Bill Malden's that shows a GI returning from World War II. He's sitting in at a table and he's being interviewed by the press and there's an army PR man standing next to him and has his arm around his shoulder and he's speaking on behalf of this GI and he says, "He thinks the food over there was swell. He's glad to be home, but he misses the excitement of battle." You may quote him and it's just kind of, well, I don't know. I'll leave it to you to decide what it means.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, there's another one here that I'm looking at that's Willie and Joe reading the papers of their new soldier brought to the battalion and the new soldier is clearly like, you know, 13 years old or something. And Willie and Joe, he says, "Oh, that's okay. The replacement center says he comes from a long line of infantrymen."

• 37:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, his uniform is like hanging off of him.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so clearly making a point about like sending children to war.

• 37:15Josh Clark?

  There was another thing too that was a recurring theme in these, in Malden's World War II cartoons and that is how important hearing from people back home was to GIs. Like getting mail was a recurring theme throughout that. And there was one that I saw that it was like you were saying, there's no dialogue, there's no caption or anything like that, but it's a soldier and he's sitting there with like, he's, he's sitting down with his back against a tree. He's holding his rifle up, but at his feet is a bunch of packages that say, "Do not open until December 25th." So like he's in battle carrying around this package that he can't wait to open until Christmas. It's like, it's got a touch of humor to it,

• 37:59Josh Clark?

  but more than anything, it really struck me as quite touching, you know?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. The one that artistically is like, I think one of the coolest ones was actually from a, from a German, I mean, I really hate saying this out loud. It was from a Nazi. And what was his name? His name was Harald, he was a Norwegian Nazi named Harald Damslas. And in 1944, he drew a political cartoon. The caption reads, "The USA shall save European culture from destruction. With what right?" And it's a picture, you know, sort of- Uh, pointing out all the hypocrisies of America like, you know, this, this big winged

• 38:44Speaker 02

  sort of multi-armed, multi-legged beast made out of a drum and has a Klansman head and holding a money bag and, uh, and there's a noose hanging off. It's just crazy looking. It looks like something like Pink Floyd would have used on an album cover.

• 39:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is nuts. It's called Culture Terror, but spelled with a K. And I think terror is spelled differently, too. I guess in the Norwegian.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Well, there, there's your band then. Just call your band that and use that as the album cover.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  Culture Terror. Yeah, that's a great idea.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  You're halfway there.

• 39:14Josh Clark?

  But go check it out because it's, it's striking. It's just the art alone is striking. Um, but that, the Nazis calling out America for our own.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Misdeeds.

• 39:26Josh Clark?

  Misdeeds. Great. Thank you. Um, that was also carried on by some Americans, too. There was a black cartoonist named Jay Jackson who drew for the Chicago Defender, which is a black newspaper. Um, and during World War II, did you see the one of the blind leading the blind?

• 39:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:44Josh Clark?

  Uh, I, I mean, talk about striking. So it's, it's America. Uh, it's a figure representing America and he's leading a figure with a swastika. So he's representing Germany. I think it even says Germany on the guy. And they're both, um, blind and they're both wearing dark glasses and on the lenses it says race hate. So what he's saying is that like, you know, both of these countries that are fighting this war for moral superiority are both blinded by their hatred of different races. And, um, it's, it's one of the better political cartoons I've ever seen. Again, not funny, like you were saying, but still just an amazing point.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, we should probably take our last break. Uh, right before the break, I want to mention that they've been giving out a Pulitzer Prize for editorial cartooning. Uh, they started that in 1922 and Bill Malden, uh, won that Pulitzer for his World War II work. And we'll talk about someone else who won several of those awards right after this.

• 40:59Speaker 03

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• 41:28Speaker 04

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• 41:42Speaker 06

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• 42:58Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, I just want to point out, I think we said we weren't really going to describe images.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Right, well, not much, yeah.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  We've been doing it pretty prolifically. I hope it's going well, I can't tell.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Alright, no more.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  Uh, so, I think we should talk about a guy named Herb Block, or Herbloc was his pen name, cartoon name. And he's considered probably the most important political cartoonist of the entire 20th century. He's got three Pulitzer's for cartooning alone, and an additional Pulitzer for public service that he got for just excoriating Nixon over the Watergate scandal.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I imagine if you're a political cartoonist during Watergate, you're kind of licking your chops a bit, you know?

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Or McCarthyism, like, he was really around during a fraught, fraught time politically.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he drew, just Block alone, drew more than 100 cartoons about Watergate between 72 and 74. And that's something that I think bears pointing out. Political cartoonists are expected to draw a cartoon a day. Like, you didn't write an article every day, you didn't go cover something. You drew a political cartoon five days a week to run in the, in the daily newspaper.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and 25 of them for Saturday and Sunday.

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Uh, and Block actually, uh, I mean, I talked about the time that he was there, I mean, it's actually pretty vast. He was there from 46 to 2001.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  So he got to cover quite a bit politically. Um, he coined the term McCarthyism. I think we talked about that in the McCarthyism episode in a 1950 cartoon. Uh, he was definitely, you know, on the, on the left side of the political spectrum, uh, because he would go after, you know, environmental polluters and, uh, the, and war, the immorality of war, uh, the government, you know, as a whole. And they have named, um, since 2004, the best editorial and political cartoonist is named after him, the Herbloc Prize.

• 44:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I went and looked to see, uh, who some of the, uh, recent candidates or winners were. And there's one that I'd, I'd noticed. I was looking through current political cartoons and this guy kept coming up. His name was Pedro X. Molina. And he draws for counterpoint. So he is super lefty. Um, he was a 2024 finalist for the Herblach Prize, but his cartoons are just on point. He's, I think, probably the best working today of the younger generation.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  Um, one of the ones that I saw was, there's an old, um, like a, an extension cord outlet, you know, have like the two outlets that you can plug into.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Oh, you sent me this one, right?

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:40Josh Clark?

  It just looks old and worn and everything. And one of the outlets says Biden and the other one says Trump. And then, and also in the picture is an Apple charger and that says Gen Z. They have no way to, no, no one to plug into. Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:54Josh Clark?

  And it's just, there's no words aside from the names and, and the, and Gen Z. And like, it just, again, really gets the point across. But I like that guy's work.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. It also, instead of saying Gen Z, could have said, a lot of America.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  Right. Right. For sure.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Uh, so we should finish up by talking a bit about Charlie Hebdo, um, as promised early on. Uh, you mentioned that France was, is, has been a hotbed for satire since the, the get go. And the radical satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, um, has been around for a long, long time, since 1960. Their original motto was mean and nasty. And they made, you, we probably would not here in the States unless you just are sort of in the know, not known much about Charlie Hebdo, had it not been for a couple of tragic events.

• 46:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Uh, on, on Halloween day, uh, in 2011, they published, um, an, an issue number 1011. Uh, they retitled, instead of Charlie Hebdo, they retitled the issue, uh, Sharia Hebdo for Sharia law. And they were, it was a, a cover in response to the Tunisian news where an Islamist party had won parliamentary elections there. And on the cover, it featured a cartoon rendering of the prophet Muhammad. And the caption read, 100 lashes if you do not die laughing. And in Islam, any image of Muhammad is very much, uh, forbidden, much less, you know, a cartoon making fun of something.

• 47:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And violence ensued because of this.

• 47:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think in 2012, no, that same year, 2011. So within a couple of months, the offices were firebombed. No one was hurt, but in response, and I didn't know this. I thought it was just that cover, that drawing, which is, you know, like you don't do that. That's a violation of, of like a huge violation of Islamic custom to, to make any kind of, like you said, picture of Mohammed, let alone making him a cartoon. But they, they went even further after the firebombing. And they, in 2012, they published more cartoons, um, one of which was Mohammed naked on all fours. And that actually, from what I can tell is

• 48:12Josh Clark?

  what triggered the, the, um, the, the murders of a bunch of the people who worked at the offices in 2015.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, uh, two men stormed into the offices, murdered 12 people. Uh, this was, you know, the, the biggest news. There's a cat walking around outside my house right now that I do not recognize. Very interesting. Sorry, just caught me off guard.

• 48:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it did.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  I was like, did one of my cats get out? It's like, nope, it's not one of my cats.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  It's a bird.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, murdered 12 people, probably not the best time to mention that during the middle of this awful, awful retelling, uh, including the editor of, of Charlie Hebdo, four other cartoonists. Uh, it also went on to kill four Jewish people and then the French police took them out.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so like immediately there were protests and, and marches in France, like millions of people across the country. And, um, basically a meme was developed almost immediately. It was just we Charlie. And I, it means I am Charlie. And they were saying like, I'm standing up for, um, freedom of expression, freedom of speech. And, uh, that was pretty much the zeitgeist across all of France. Like everyone stood up and supported Charlie Hebdo after that tragedy. Um, and I saw Chuck that 10 years on, the 10 year anniversary just came and went this past January. Um, they, apparently people have

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  changed their opinions in, in some cases, just like 31% of people polled agreed with the idea that Charlie Hebdo brought that on themselves. Whereas

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 49:50Josh Clark?

  that same, the, the answer to that question would have probably been in the low single digits right after the shooting.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  At the time.

• 49:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I just thought that was interesting. I mean, how, how different things can change in 10 years, you know?

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, in the wake of a tragedy like that, yeah. I'm not saying I agree one way or the other. I just, I just, I think a lot of times opinions change on stuff like that over time for certain people.

• 50:15Josh Clark?

  10 years is a long time these days. It didn't used to be, but man, oh, man, a lot can happen in 10 years. We've learned to pack it in.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  So we mentioned early on that there's only 20, like, on-staff, major newspaper cartoonists. The reason for that, as we all know, is newspapers are, are having a tough time. Declining subscriptions mean they don't want to have further declining subscriptions by angering readership on either side of the political spectrum. Because people might cancel over something like that and they just can't afford that anymore. So people are more sensitive these days.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Their sadly editors are not standing behind their cartoonists like they used to.

• 50:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they definitely.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  And if they flag something, they, you know, they'll pull it and the cartoonist may quit or may be fired.

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, if people complain about a, a political cartoon, it used to be like, hey, it's, it's true. Now it's like, oh, sorry. And then they, they print a retraction and then fire the political cartoonist. That's new. That's, that's the way that the, um, the industry is changing, but

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:21Josh Clark?

  it seems to be pretty much relegated to newspapers and just some newspapers.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:30Josh Clark?

  You know, like Mike Lakovich at the AJC, he's one of the premier editorial cartoonists still working today for a newspaper.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Man, he's been around for a long, long time.

• 51:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he doesn't pull punches. And I think that AJC has stood behind him every single time.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good.

• 51:47Josh Clark?

  So it's not, it's not like. It's going to happen, you know, no matter what newspaper you work at. It just depends on the, usually the outlook of the publisher.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:55Josh Clark?

  And if you offend the publisher, it used to be like the editors would talk them down, but the editors don't do that anymore. And so you can get fired. And there was a very well-known political cartoonist, another Pulitzer winner named Anne Telness. And in 2019, she kind of saw the writing on the wall. And she published like a series, or not a series, it's multi-panel cartoon that basically was an infographic explaining what political cartoonists do, the danger that they're in right now in the United States, as far as like being canceled and fired. And then what the ultimate problem with that is. And she essentially says, political cartoonists are the canary in the coal mine.

• 52:40Josh Clark?

  If we start getting fired for expressing opinions and views that are legitimate, because people don't want to hear that, that is a big red flag.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:50Josh Clark?

  That freedom of expression is under attack in your country. And she was saying, that's basically happening right now. And she ultimately quit just earlier this year, right?

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, she had been at the Washington Post for 17 years and quit because her editors there at the Post refused to publish one of her cartoons based only on her opinion. So it's, yeah, that's kind of the state of things at the Washington Post these days.

• 53:19Josh Clark?

  Yes, so, and across a lot of newspapers. Like, again, they're like an endangered breed, but that's specifically at newspapers. It's still a very thriving art form. And you can make a really good case that it's still around and very popular. It's just transmuted in a lot of cases to memes. I'll give you an example of one I saw recently. You know, the, "This is fine." The dog sitting at the table drinking coffee in a room that's on fire.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  I haven't seen that one.

• 53:54Josh Clark?

  It says, "This is fine."

• 53:55Speaker 02

  I don't see many memes, though.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

  It's a great meme. But in one panel, he's just sitting there and it says arson is free speech now. And then the next panel, it's him just sitting there drinking the coffee in the room on fire and he says, "This is fine." And that, I mean- It's a meme. Somebody put it together, probably using a meme generator. But you can also make a case that that is, in a lot of ways, it bears a strong resemblance to political cartoons.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  All right.

• 54:22Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 54:24Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, since we got nothing else, that means this episode is done and it's time for listener mail.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  This one's Scrabble centric. Before I read this email, we do have to acknowledge that we failed to mention the ultimate Simpsons reference, of course, of quidjibo. Very, very old Simpsons reference from an early episode where Bart Simpson, I think it was Bart, argued for quidjibo, which was just the letters as they appeared on his rack. Was it worth it? Right?

• 54:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Okay. So, sorry about the quidjibo. We heard from a lot of people. But this is a different email. "Hey, guys. The real reason I'm writing is to tell you about the role of Scrabble in my family's history. My parents loved to play Scrabble, and my dad, being the kind of guy he was, made up a table to record their stats by hand, using a ruler, both to make sure the lines were straight and the columns are each the same width from page to page. Ended up using five pages or so of very thin lines. He would record the date in the game that was played and the final score and my mom's final score. Two more columns in which he would track a running total of many games, of how many games each of them had won. Besides being a perfect example of my dad, there's also interesting thing about the dates. There are three periods when they begin to play all the time, following

• 55:43Speaker 02

  periods for which they hardly played at all. In between each, my two siblings and I were born."

• 55:51Speaker 02

  That's pretty funny. They're like, "Why did things drop off for two years?"

• 55:54Josh Clark?

  We had other things to do.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Exactly. "When my dad died, I inherited their Scrabble board and their record was in it. And this is one of my most precious possessions." That is from Reverend Eric.

• 56:08Josh Clark?

  That's a sweet email. Thanks a lot, Reverend Eric.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  That was great.

• 56:11Josh Clark?

  I can just imagine, man, making your own columns and rows with a ruler. That's dedication right there.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  I know those dads. I'm not that dad, and my dad wasn't that dad, but I've known those dads.

• 56:21Josh Clark?

  Yep. If you want to be like Reverend Eric and send us an email that tells us how sweet your parents were, we love those kinds of things. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 56:51Josh Clark?

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• 57:25Speaker 03

  That sound? That's pro squash. Some of the fastest rallies in sport played inches from the crowd. The National Squash League is back in full swing for season four. The sport is heading to the 2028 Olympics for the first time, and you can see it up close right now in a city near you. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at nsl.sport.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 58:49Speaker 03

  This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 58:53Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.