Taylorism: Work Faster!

If you’ve ever lost your job thanks to a management consultant coming through your company or been timed for how fast you work, you can thank Frederick Winslow Taylor, the father of scientific management. If that field sounds made up that’s because it is. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, timing us, telling us to hurry up, scowling at us even, which makes this another average episode of Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  She said, get this in 45 minutes on the nose, no more, no less. And then she went and walked out of the room holding a pillow.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Was that me or Jerry?

• 1:38Josh Clark?

  That was Jerry.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Okay. I'm usually the timekeeper.

• 1:43Josh Clark?

  Are you? I'd never noticed. With your new Swatch?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I just feel like I'm the one that's like, 45 minutes, and you're like, no, let's make it three hours.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  I don't like three-hour podcasts, but I also don't like living under the clock, which is why I probably would not have personally liked Frederick Winslow Taylor.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, should we talk about this guy?

• 2:04Josh Clark?

  I don't think we have any choice. And by the way, this is not a biopic. It's not a biography or a profile. It's about a man that you can't not talk about, but really, this is about his whole system, okay? I just want to make that clear. To use specifically.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Well, I don't want to hear about that guy.

• 2:22Josh Clark?

  Well, TS, you're gonna have to.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  A big thanks to Livia because she pushed out another banger here. Thanks in part by this great, great article in The New Yorker from Jill Lepore, who Livia calls a genius, absolute genius, in fact, is a quote.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  She definitely is.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Great article, anyway. I think the setup that Livia gave is kind of worthy of going over a little bit because when you look at the, you know, 1900 through the 1920s and 30s, you looked at an America that was really changing in that these huge industrial revolution born industries were all of a sudden like, hey, now we're, now we're kind of corporations and now we have middle managers and CEOs and things. It's a little different than it used to be.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  And so we need to start kind of really thinking about how to squeeze every dime out of this company we can and make these workers, we'll call it efficiency, but between us, let's say, let's call it working them to the bone until they're near exhaustion so we can maximize profits.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I could just hear our left-leaning listeners going boo, hiss, but efficiency was not in and of itself, naughty word, on either side of the political spectrum at the time because you could also hope that a more efficient factory or a more efficient workforce or a more efficient whatever would increase productivity but also give workers like more free time and then ideally a larger share of the profit in the form of higher wages, right?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how that works, right?

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I mean, I can't imagine a more naive progressive movement than that, but that's exactly what they were hoping for. But not just hoping for, they were fighting for it, agitating for it, doing whatever they could, taking it to the courts. Sometimes they were successful, but I think we all know, spoiler alert, in the long run, they lost thus far.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  That's right, and a lot of the work being done on efficiency can be laid at the feet of a person and then some other people, but initially at least, this guy that you mentioned, Frederick Winslow Taylor.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Who was from Philadelphia, born in 1856, had an attorney father and abolitionist mother. He was a very smart guy and was all set to take Harvard by storm before his eyesight started to fail.

• 4:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  After that, got better. He may not have gone to Harvard, but he was still a really smart guy and ended up studying engineering at night and became a chief engineer for the Enterprise Hydraulic Works in Philly and then Midvale Steel Company.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, at Midvale Steel Company, that's where he really made his name. I think that's where he became the chief engineer. And one of the, one of the things he did as he was working his way up was he, he was, I guess, out of the gate obsessed, or at least deeply interested with the idea of doing something in the least number of movements, the most precise way, the most foolproof way, and that if you studied a task closely enough and understood it well enough, you could find the most efficient way to do it. And so over like his 26-year career at Midvale, he conducted more than 30,000 experiments

• 5:57Josh Clark?

  in metal cutting, figuring out which tool went with which motion, went with, you know, how to grab the tool the best way. And from that, he ended up writing a book called On the Art of Cutting Metals in 1907. And from what I saw for years and years, that was considered like a bible in the metal cutting industry. And so he, he definitely put his money where his mouth is, and that's how he first kind of got into the idea of becoming an efficiency expert.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this is a certain kind of brain, because I am on that spectrum a little bit in trying to weed out inefficiencies with certain things, but I'm on the side of the spectrum that is also, it comes from laziness.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  So I'll try and do that because I'm inherently kind of lazy, I think. So I'm like, I look for ways to cut corners to still get the job done.

• 6:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  And I've had people compliment me in, in the old days, like on film sets, like, hey, you know. I see what you're doing there and you're the kid I would hire twice. Whereas the guy next to you who's just like, no, man, let's just make eight trips and just hump it and do it.

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  He's like, I know he thinks he's getting it done just the old fashioned way. He's like, but you're the guy we would hire a second time.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  And your response is like, well, can I go home early?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Probably so. But that was always my aim. But it's interesting that, you know, I had that a little bit in my brain. But not like this guy did. Like he, he was obsessed with efficiencies. Such that he thought, and he's, he's kind of right in some ways, that one of the biggest threats. To getting something done in a productive, efficient way. Was slacking off and what he called systematic soldiering. And I kind of agree with that to a certain degree.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Remember in our Peter Principle episode, we talked about a corollary to that called Parkinson's Law, which was like a tongue in cheek law that. Work expanded to fill the time allotted.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:53Josh Clark?

  So yeah, if you're sitting there like making widgets. Sorry to be cliche, but that's what I'm going with. Eight or 10 hours a day. You're not going to be the most efficient you can be. You're going to be about as efficient as. As ambitious as you are. Like your ambition, how far you want to go. Is basically equal in some weird ratio to the amount of efficiency that you produce at your job. Right? So if you're like, I'm happy here. I'm not going to bust my hump like that guy. To, to go an extra half mile because I'm not going to get anything in return.

• 8:32Josh Clark?

  So I'm just going to do my job at a pace that I find acceptable and that the people I work for find acceptable. And I mean, if you want to call that slacking off or being lazy, fine. And Frederick Taylor definitely did, but it's also just kind of like being a human being, you know?

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And to be clear. Cause I think I, it seems like I might've been mischaracterized here. The, the film set thing, I was. I wasn't like, let's just do the minimum. I was, I was in a situation in this specific incident. Where I was trying to do a little extra work by. Getting a, a cart loaded rather than just making a ton of trips. And the guys, and he was like, no, don't mess with getting that cart out. Let's just hump all this stuff back and forth.

• 9:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  And they were like, hey, guys, or to me, hey, guy. And I said, my name's Chuck.

• 9:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  And they said, hey, Chuck, you're the guy I would hire twice because you were taking the time to do it more efficiently, not like, hey, I admire like the lazy side of you.

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  Right. And they appreciated your soft touch with the donkey that pulled the cart.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Right. But it was lazy in that I didn't want to do all those trips. That's where it initially sprang from was I don't want to have to tote all that stuff eight times. Does that make sense?

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think the reason you're, man, we're really going deep on this, but I think the reason that you're feeling mischaracterized is because you're misusing the word lazy. That's not lazy. That's what they call work harder or work smarter, not harder.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you only do that if you got a little laziness in you.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  No, that's not necessarily true. I think it's just sensible.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Okay, but I'm also lazy then. How's that?

• 10:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, there you go. But they're not necessarily inextricably tied together in that instance.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:18Josh Clark?

  Anyway, I don't think what you just described qualifies as laziness. But what Frederick Taylor considered laziness, he called something called systematic soldiering, which I still can't make heads or tails of. It does not make any sense to me, does it to you?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Well, what does soldiering mean?

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I mean, you're, you go off and fight battles or you go and follow orders? I don't know. I don't know what he means.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Did you look up soldiering?

• 10:49Josh Clark?

  No, I didn't. I just accessed my brain databanks.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna look it up. Go ahead. We'll do a rare, a rare look.

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Soldiering, serve as a soldier, or to, aha.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Oh, well, no, that doesn't make any sense either. Like soldiering on.

• 11:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Persevering. Yeah, I don't, doesn't make any sense to me officially as well.

• 11:13Josh Clark?

  It makes no sense because that was his term, systematic soldiering.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  I would call it systematic leaning against something.

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right? That's what he called slacking off. And like, this guy was an aristocrat through and through, right? His mother's family came over in the early 1600s, I think, to America. So like, he was a wealthy, blue-blooded Quaker boy, who, because his parents were like do-gooders, his mom certainly was, she was a suffragette, an abolitionist. He was raised to care about humanity, but he also didn't have that spark of compassion that it takes to care about humans individually. So he cared about creating a better society for humans, but he couldn't really help but look down on other people he considered lower than him, including immigrants.

• 12:03Josh Clark?

  So he did notice things like, you're not working as hard as you can. I'm going to see to it that you work harder. And he felt totally comfortable with filling that role. And he actually created that role for himself to fill, which is pretty remarkable, if you ask me.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  That's right. So he was at Midvale and he sort of started breaking down the operations of the jobs that they had there at Midvale. And he was like, you know, there are some elementary operations that happen here. So we're going to form an estimating department, where we're going to sit around and do time studies, which he got from class at Phillips Exeter. And we're going to time workers doing all these little small tasks. We're going to add that up to the whole and kind of average it out and say, hey, you should be able to do this in that amount of time and we'll adjust accordingly. We'll incentivize accordingly. And he said, and you know what, Els? This is now a new career. I'm going to be a consulting engineer in management

• 13:02Speaker 02

  and I'm going to charge you to tell you how bad you're doing things.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so those management companies like KPMG and McKinsey, they would not exist. Ostensibly, had Frederick Taylor not created that field? Like, that's what he created. These huge, just mega world influencing companies came from this guy basically making up the profession.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know what? We should, we should give a good example here because what he was really most, or not most well-known for, but something he became very well-known for was his work at Bethlehem Steel. And he started looking at the process of loading iron onto rail cars, pig iron, and said, "All right, we need to figure out how much of this stuff is reasonable for one of these men to load onto a rail car." The average right now is 12 and a half tons a day. So what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna get 10 large, powerful Hungarian workers to, and say, "Hey, load as much as you can, as fast as you can. 16 and a half tons is your goal."

• 14:08Speaker 02

  And they did that in 14 minutes, whereas 12 and a half tons was the daily rate for their average worker. So that's 71 tons in a 10-hour day. He rounded it up to 75 and then said, "Yeah, but you know what? People get tired and they need breaks. So let's whack off 40% of that. And we'll just make, we'll just call it even at 47 and a half tons per day, which is four times as much as you've usually been doing."

• 14:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  That's, that's the new expectation.

• 14:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that thing about people getting tired, he called the law of heavy laboring. And from what I can tell, he made up that law that I just put in scare quotes. And this is a really good example of what he did. Like, he was supposed to be precise in finding like ultimate efficiency, but he was arbitrarily rounding up and arbitrarily coming up with 40% off based on this law that he made up. And now you kind of start to get to see like behind the veil or like the, the meat that's on the bones. I don't know the analogy I'm looking for, but you can pull back the curtain, that's the one, and see that this stuff is actually not what Frederick Taylor cracked it up to be.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  The Great Oz is not so much.

• 15:20Josh Clark?

  Right, it wears no clothes.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  All right, so when this happened, some people said, "I ain't doing this." They quit, they got fired. Some people tried and couldn't do it. Some people were so tired from trying to load that much or that they couldn't come back the next day. And things got really heated. He needed, he hired armed guards to walk him home at night. Taylor did because he was so worried. And then he said, "All right, I'm gonna create a new fake scenario." And this is something that I've seen businesses do that I hate when they create like, you know, "Here's our worker Todd." And Todd, you know, and it's all just made up BS. And that's what he did with Schmidt.

• 16:02Josh Clark?

  Here's the thing, though. So Schmidt, yes, was a fictional invention essentially of Taylor's making. But he went around the country giving this, this lecture or wrote in his books like as if Schmidt, this actually happened.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  About Schmidt?

• 16:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a great movie. I really felt uncomfortable when he made a pass at the, the wife of the friendly couple that he met.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  No, no kidding.

• 16:26Josh Clark?

  Other than that, I thought it was a great movie.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:29Josh Clark?

  I think at that point, that was actually just an outtake of Jack Nicholson doing his thing.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Oh, my, yes, keep, keep rolling the cameras. This is great.

• 16:38Josh Clark?

  So, um, like, so he was, he put out there that the Schmidt character was like a real deal thing, not a made up thing, not a made up anecdote to prove his point. And he actually did consult at Bethlehem Steel where Schmidt supposedly worked. But the upshot of all of it was this. There was this guy named Schmidt who was known to work very hard. And he was also very motivated by money because he was building his own house and he needed as much money as he could get to build said house.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  But not too bright, right?

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  Not too bright. That's a really important point that Taylor would hammer home any chance he got. This guy was sluggish mentally speaking is the way that he put it. But he got through to him with a pep talk, whereas essentially he said, are you a high-priced man? And Schmidt was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And when he wrote about Schmidt, he like replaced his W's with Vs and stuff, he was a German immigrant. And he said, well, this is what a high-priced man does. He does everything that his manager tells him to do. If your manager tells you to pick up that pig iron and take six steps and then set it down over there, you do that. If your manager tells you to sit down and rest for 90 seconds, then after 90 seconds,

• 17:51Josh Clark?

  he tells you to get up and then go grab that piece of pig iron, you do that too, with no backtalk whatsoever. That's a high-priced man.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  You want to be a Mr. Big Boy Pants?

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And high-priced men make more money. So we'll give you not just the dollar 15 an hour that you're making, we'll give you a dollar 85 for making this 47 and a half ton quota. And all you have to do is do what your manager tells you. And this is the other thing that I guess Frederick Taylor revolutionized in a way. He divided the workforce into two parts. Managers, who had the brains and did the bossing around, and workers who were, according to Taylor, meant to do exactly what their managers told them. And if you put the two together, you would have the most efficient way to say like, um, load pig iron onto a railroad car.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  That's right. In this anecdote that he, you know, sort of preached around as if it were real, he said, then I did this, it worked so great. Schmidt was so happy and rolling in dough. I got all of his coworkers to jump aboard because I showed them what a Mr. Big Boy Pants looked like. And everybody wanted Big Boy Pants. And so everybody, as long as you just do what your boss says, then you're going to make more dough. And forget the fact that I'm choosing, you know, the very strongest workers to set the standard for everyone. And then in 1911, a US House committee said, yeah, but we can't just forget that, because you can't just pick the strongest worker and say that's the standard for everyone.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  And so he got into a bit of a tit for tat in that.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  A committee meeting, I guess, with Chairman William "Ballshop" Wilson. And he said, you know, what about if you don't have big boy pants men on your staff? And like, or all big boy pants men? And he said, well, it has no place for a bird that can sing but won't. And he kind of got smacked down for that because he was just lifting lines out of books that he had written.

• 19:57Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah. Also, William Wilson said basically like, we're not dealing with singing birds. We're dealing with men here who are part of society and for whom, or for whose benefit society is organized, right? So you can't, essentially, you can't treat people like automatons and drones and robots. You have to consider them as human beings. And the lines from his book that you mentioned, apparently Jill Lepore reported that he did so poorly in this committee hearing that, by the way, if you want to ever be nervous about a committee hearing you have to go testify at, go to one that's literally named after you.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  This was, this hearing was called the House Committee to Investigate Taylor, not Taylorism, Taylor and Other Systems of Shop Management. And so he actually ordered one of his underlings to go steal William Wilson's copy of his book. And I guess didn't, wasn't successful and just kind of went ahead with the terrible testimony. But as we'll see, he used it to turn bad publicity into any publicity which is good publicity.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  That's right. The long and short of it, with Bethlehem Steel at least, was that they fired him. They quit the Taylors and Methods that he had brought in. And he said, all right, pay me $100,000 and we'll call it even.

• 21:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Which is about three and a half million bucks today. And that's probably a good time for a break, eh?

• 21:23Josh Clark?

  Agreed.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  All right. We'll come back and move on from Taylor for a moment to talk about the Gillbreaths, right after this.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 21:46Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 21:49Speaker 02

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• 22:05Speaker 03

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• 22:13Josh Clark?

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• 22:36Josh Clark?

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• 22:40Speaker 05

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• 22:57Josh Clark?

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• 23:48Josh Clark?

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• 24:11Josh Clark?

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• 24:27Speaker 02

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• 24:56Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, you mentioned that we're going to talk about the Gilbreths. So I say we do that now. We're talking about Frank and Lillian Gilbreth. And anyone who's ever read the book, or seen the movie, or the remake, Cheaper by the Dozen, this is the family that that movie and that book were based on. Frank and Lillian Gilbreth were one of the more amazing, interesting couples that came out of the 20th century.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And two of their kids wrote that book in 1948. And, you know, it was fun. It's a classic for a reason. They remade it for a reason.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  For sure, to make money.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Frank was a bricklayer in his earlier life, and he was one of these people that thought, including to, but not limited to, catskinning, that there was one best way to do any task. And so he was one of those guys where he was like, hey, that scaffold for laying bricks is kind of great, but what if there was a shelf on the scaffold for those bricks and mortar? You don't got to bend over and pick that stuff up. And what if you had some really low-paid laborers that would stack the bricks on the frames for them, positioned in the right direction, so they don't even have to turn the bricks? Like, really drilling down on these efficiencies.

• 26:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it seems like Frank kind of came up with this interest independently of Frederick Taylor, even though he and Lilian and Taylor would essentially form kind of a cadre of cohorts, I guess.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  What a band name that is.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  This is like an independent thing. This is an independent, these were two independent groups who eventually came together because they're, they helped develop this field out of thin air. So what the Gilberts did, Lilian and Frank together, they formed the Gilberts, Inc., a management consulting firm. They got really, really in the weeds about the movements it took to carry out a task. And they figured out that you could break any task down into 18 different kinds of movements, right? So you're not necessarily going to have all 18, but no matter what task you're talking about, it's going to be made up of no more than those 18 specific kinds of movements.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  Things like searching for an object with your eye, grasping an object, reaching for it, disassembling it. And they called these things "Thirbligs," which is their name roughly spelled backwards.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Do you think when they met Taylor initially, they were just like, oh, my God, you're into efficiency and so are we? And Taylor said, I think you mean "effish." And they just like fainted.

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think they're right. They're like, you're our guy.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, Thirbligs. So they were also big into Rich Hall and Sniglets. Not to date myself, but yeah, they made up a word and they said, "Any action you can take is a Thirblig, and we want to get rid of as many Thirbligs as possible to make efficiency the most, to maximize it as much as one possibly can."

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and to do that, so they would use their kids. They ended up having a dozen kids, 11 of whom made it to adulthood. One of them died at age five of diphtheria sadly. And I don't know how, but they planned to have six boys and six girls, and I think they were successful at that. No idea how they did that, because we're talking about the beginning of the 20th century.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  It's called luck.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Because there was no way to do that.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  And they decided to raise their kids in the, under these principles of efficiency. But they weren't weirdo clinical types. Like, this was a tight, cool family. Like, the kids were participatory. Like, they would have family meetings, and each kid had a vote. And so they would have a family meeting and someone would put forward a motion, like, "I say we get a dog," and someone would second it. And then they put it to a vote. And then, you know, the ayes had it, so they ended up getting a dog they named Mr. Chairman. Like, that was how they ran their, their family, but they were all very focused on efficiency, because they were obsessed with it, but not in a deleterious way, or deletrious

• 29:09Josh Clark?

  way. They, they were, I guess the best way to put it is Lillian was searching for the most efficient way to do something, so that you have more free time to go do happy things. She said, "So it can increase your happiness minutes," essentially. So it was a really different viewpoint of the same thing compared to Frederick Taylor.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Taylor, you kind of talked about it a little bit early on, but he did think it was a win-win. He was like, "This is great, because it'll run more efficiently." And, you know, it'll trickle down, essentially. They didn't call it that yet, but that's, that's sort of the same notion, that, like, it'll just trickle down to the worker, all this efficiency, and they'll get better wages, and stuff will be cheaper, and stuff like that. Like, management will never, ever take advantage of that and make you work harder just to increase profits.

• 29:56Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  And, of course, that's exactly what happened in every case, but...

• 30:02Speaker 02

  I don't like, I'm kind of wondering about Taylor's heart and like what was in there, you know?

• 30:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, yeah, I think I explained it already. I'm sticking with my idea.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think he's one of those guys that was so brain obsessed on efficiency. I don't know that he had like, I don't know if he thought that part through such that he was like some evil person set out to exploit a worker.

• 30:28Josh Clark?

  No, I don't think he was evil. I don't think that he set out to exploit workers. But I think even after he saw what his invention was being used for, he was indifferent to that. And that says volumes about him. He never, he never denounced it. He never called people out for misusing it. And he actually helped foster its misuse to exploit workers. So I think he was a bit of a misanthrope, not evil, and that wasn't ever his intention to be evil. But when it turned kind of evil, he was, he was like, sure, let's keep going if you guys are giving me money.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I wonder if he might have been in an age where there weren't certain diagnoses available for what he, you know, may have had going on.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, maybe, for sure. I mean, it's possible. I, I think that we're barreling toward a, a future where every single person has a diagnosis of some sort or another.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe.

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it'll be interesting.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  You mean like there's no perfect person and everyone has an, an issue that they're dealing with?

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think we already know that. But we haven't, we haven't come up with a label for every single one of those types of issues that people are working with. That's the difference that I'm talking about.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know. I think sometimes that thing empowers people.

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  I agree. I don't think, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just interested to see like where we're going. But yes, I agree. We've, we've, in large part as a society scuttled the idea of the Ubermensch and Nietzsche is very unhappy about that.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what Nietzsche can do.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  I'll tell you off air.

• 32:03Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Ironically, though, it was a Supreme Court Justice who we've talked about, I feel like, quite a bit on this show, who kind of bumped Taylor up to celebrity status.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  How did we pronounce his name the first 25 times we said it?

• 32:19Josh Clark?

  It's Brandeis.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Okay, that sounds right.

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  Like Light Ice, but a little different.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Right. Like Bud Ice?

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Didn't Miller Lite have an ice too? Didn't everybody have an ice for a while?

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Light Ice? I don't know.

• 32:34Josh Clark?

  No, I screwed it up then. Because I should have said Bud Ice. But yeah, that's what I was going for. I know Milwaukee's Best had an ice.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  What was the deal with that? Ice brewed? What even was that?

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  I think it got you tanked faster.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Really?

• 32:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think it had something that it messed with the alcohol content, or the way it was delivered, or something like that.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  So you had to drink 17 Miller Lights instead of 14?

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  Exactly. No, the opposite. You had to drink 12 instead of 14.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. All right, anyway, back to 1910. Brandeis, Louis Brandeis, Supreme Court Justice, called a meeting with the Gilbreths and the Taylorites. Taylor couldn't come, but he sent his representatives and said, "I want to, I want to talk about what I'm calling scientific management. And I am concerned, because I see what's happening with big business, and I think it's getting out of hand. I want to break up these monopolies, and I think the consumer and the worker should be served." And I think I called one couple here who's probably interested in that, and another group of people who it sounds like they probably aren't.

• 33:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and Brandeis is ironic, because he was dyed-in-the-wool progressive. Like you said, he was worried about big business. And so the idea that he's the one that made this concept that's historically viewed as exploitive of workers, famous, and like introduced to the world, and essentially gave it its like breakout moment, is, it's just terribly ironic. But the, the whole basis of that is that he was arguing before the Interstate Commerce Commission, which was holding hearings on railroad rate hikes. The railroad said, "Stuff's getting expensive. We need to increase..." The prices that we charge to carry freight, to move freight. And of course, that has cascading effects all throughout society and prices were going to go up.

• 34:20Josh Clark?

  And Brandeis represented a bunch of companies that were going to have to pay those increased rates. And Brandeis's argument was that they, the railroad companies don't need to raise their rates. They need to get more efficient. And here's how they can do it. This guy named Taylor has figured out a scientific way of getting more efficient. And that's how they can keep their prices low and still keep their profits high.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know it's a lot of press coverage on this. And this is really what pushed Taylor over the edge as far as becoming kind of famous for what he was doing. And that is the year, I'm sorry, the next year is when he put out The Principles of Scientific Management, which was probably easily the biggest business book, maybe of the 20th century, but at least the first half of the 20th century.

• 35:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And he was riding on the publicity from that Interstate Commerce Commission hearing, but also that congressional hearing that came, I think, later that same year. He, he saw an opportunity to like get his name out there, even though his name was kind of being dragged through the mud.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  That's right. And one thing about Taylorism that we would learn soon enough, and I guess Gilbreathism, did they even call it that?

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  No, I don't think so. They weren't, they weren't those types.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it that. Gilbreathism was that it didn't have to be kept to the workforce because Lily and Gilbreth found herself alone for the last 48 years of her life when Frank died of a heart attack at the age of 55 in 1924. And she said, all right, don't tell anybody. I'm no homemaker myself, not into it at all. I don't even do the cooking in my house. But I think I can shift these efficiency ideas to the house and make the home place a more efficient workplace for getting everything done from like vacuuming to baking biscuits.

• 36:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, have you ever heard of the work triangle in a kitchen?

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's a, that's a classic kitchen chef thing.

• 36:17Josh Clark?

  She came up with that as far as I know.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I did not know that, but yeah.

• 36:22Josh Clark?

  But for those of you who don't know what it is, the kitchen triangle is like the, the places where you do the most work. And so the idea is that they should be all within a step or two from one another. The sink, the oven, and the ice cream maker. I don't remember what the third one is. The dishwasher.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Dishwasher, interesting.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  I think those are the three, today at least.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  So anyway, she came up with that. If you have a kitchen island, you can thank her, I've seen. So yeah, she just kind of pivoted because people were finding out that there was a woman that ran Gilbertth Inc., the management consulting firm, and were just walking away from their accounts because it was run by a woman. So she had no choice. She had 12, 11 kids to raise and had to provide for them. She wanted to send them all to college. So yeah, she pivoted to home ec. But it wasn't just her. It's not like she invented home ec. out of whole cloth. It was already being developed by a very famous, or should be famous, lesbian couple, Flora Rose and Martha Van Rensselaer? Yeah, Rensselaer, right?

• 37:28Speaker 02

  I have no idea how to pronounce that.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  R E N S S E L A E R, Rensselaer. Yeah, that's what I'm going with. And the reason I specifically called them out as a lesbian couple is because they were out as a lesbian couple in, I believe, the 1920s or 30s. I had a, I mean, you just did not do that. And they were like, say something. Say, just, just bring it. And they were, they just went on challenge for their lifetime, from what I knew. But they, they wanted to turn working in the home into something scientific, domestic science, which kind of elevated its status, as well as made things easier for the woman working in the home.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And eventually, you could even find Taylorism in public, public schools. And it's interesting to think of it this way. There was a Massachusetts superintendent who told the National Education Association that educators needed to analyze the returns of their investment rationally. We ought to purchase no more Greek instruction at the rate of 5.9 pupil recitations for a dollar. The price must go down, or will she, or we shall invest in something else. And it sounds silly, but I get, I get that. It just sounds like a funny way to talk about it.

• 38:45Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  But it's basically like, we need to invest in these kids, the things- That really matter and not necessarily reciting a Greek poem or something like that.

• 38:56Josh Clark?

  Sure. The only question is, who decides what really matters? And I think one of the things about that is that at the time when that guy was talking like that, kids in public schools were viewed as being trained and molded into the workers of tomorrow. So it was the government and the economy who decided what was important. And yeah, we were making a lot of money off of reciting Greek poems, like you were saying. So that would get scuttled in the face of, say, I don't know, shop class, maybe?

• 39:27Speaker 02

  What class? Shop?

• 39:28Josh Clark?

  Shop, yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I had shop. We didn't have a car auto shop, though. Did you guys have that?

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  No, I was just fascinated by that. They had one on Saved by the Bell, and I always thought that was the coolest thing.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  It felt like something that was in generations previous to us. We just had shop class where you made lamps and stuff like that.

• 39:47Josh Clark?

  Well, there was a huge shift in the American economy from car making to lamp making in the early 80s. So I'm sure that's what the result was.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Shall we take our second break or soldier through?

• 40:02Josh Clark?

  Systematic soldier?

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:05Josh Clark?

  I say we take our second break.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Okay, let's do it. We'll be right back.

• 40:25Josh Clark?

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• 40:48Josh Clark?

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• 41:03Speaker 02

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• 41:28Josh Clark?

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• 41:46Speaker 02

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• 42:01Josh Clark?

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• 42:13Speaker 02

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• 42:42Speaker 02

  Okay, we're back. By the way, I think the kitchen triangle is probably the fridge and not the dishwasher would be my guess.

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about the fridge. Yes, yes, absolutely. Thank you.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  I bet you're right, though. I bet it's sink, stove, oven, and fridge would be my guess.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  Sure. Yeah, I think you're right.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Because what if you don't have a dishwasher?

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  Right, and I'm sure that she didn't have a dishwasher in the 1930s and 40s, so, you know. Yeah, so you're right Chuck, just say it again.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  I think it was the fridge.

• 43:14Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Alright, so we're gonna talk a little bit about just sort of what did Taylorism accomplish ultimately? There is a lot of irony in that, you know, a lot of it was so scientific supposedly, but a lot of the stuff was made up, or just sort of, you know, yeah, made up, or kind of a sham.

• 43:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  This wasn't new stuff, like, timing people on tasks and teaching people to do more specific things had been around for a long time. But one of the effects of Taylorism is definitely like, you know, de-skilling a worker, making them feel, and not that working is all about emotions, but you don't want to make your employee feel like a robot that can be replaced by a robot. You want to give them a little bit of agency ideally in a job, and not just say, move your body this way, move your hand that way, punch that thing, and then return back to position one.

• 44:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so de-skilling workers, taking away the overall understanding of making, say, like, an oven, and just giving them the one job of putting the door on the oven as it's coming down the assembly line. Not only does that take away from job satisfaction, it also makes you way more replaceable, because you don't have to train somebody to build a whole oven, all you have to do is train them to put that oven door on, and then you train somebody else to put the thermostat in the oven, and so on and so forth, and you, the owner of the factory, has that oven you want, but you have a bunch of replaceable workers that you can pay fairly low wages, even combined, compared to somebody who builds the oven from scratch.

• 44:54Josh Clark?

  That is a huge, like you said, that was already underway, but Taylorism, and the fact that it was so pervasive and widespread, especially in America in the first half of the 20th century, really solidified that, as like a basis of the American workforce.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, another effect, I mean, I guess we've kind of said it in several different ways from the beginning, but you know, the idea that the Gilbreath had that there would be a happiness quotient involved and where you could do work more efficiently, so you could just have more time and better wages to spend with your family, it just, you know, it didn't work out that way. Even though the whole idea of Taylorism in its, at its base, isn't inherently anti-worker, it sort of ends up being that way when the profits are being spread around the top tier and all they want is more and more of those profits.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  Yes, and so to be clear, it wasn't like every single time Taylor showed up, like, that's just how it went. There were some successful pushbacks over the years. There was one specifically at the Watertown Arsenal in Massachusetts in 1911, they made guns, I think for the government, it was a federal arsenal, and Taylor sent one of his emissaries, essentially told them to just make up a number, you don't even need the stopwatch part. And I think word of that got out and really kind of undermined that, but also just the process of being timed, doing your job, one of the workers said, "I'm not doing that, you can't time me," and he was fired on the spot, and the rest of the workers were like, "Oh yeah, well, we're going on strike."

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  And they ended up being successful because again, this was a federal arsenal, and those congressional hearings to investigate Taylor, one of the results of them was that the US federal government banned Taylorism from being used in any way, shape, or form in any kind of federal facility or agency.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:51Josh Clark?

  But, but overall, I mean, Taylor certainly won the day, I mean, that's, that's just how the economy is in America and other like-minded countries, like, even though we've kind of walked away from it overtly, it's just gotten more and more entrenched over the years rather than further and further away.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, probably the most, you know, the biggest contribution was it just raised the awareness and an obsession with productivity. And productivity is great. It's not like that's a bad thing. But again, like when you're dealing with human beings, to feel like a cog and to feel completely replaceable, there's no way, like you're not serving your own purpose as a, as a business owner, because you're not going to have good and happy employees ultimately. And replacing employee after employee, even if you're just training them to put the oven door on, that's still an inefficiency, you know?

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  Right. No, for sure. And, and yeah, that's a really great point.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Like you want to keep employees.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But I'm sure some bean counter at some company somewhere was like,

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:01Josh Clark?

  You still make more money firing and training employees than you do making them happy. Although, that seems to not be the case. I was reading up on, on management consulting, which I think deserves its own episode down the line, because apparently it's just totally fraudulent. So I think it'll be a really great, interesting episode. But some studies have shown, from what I saw, just briefly reading about this, that the happier your workers are, or I should say, economies that have happier workers, like more fulfilled workers, typically have, they're richer, for the most part. I guess America is an outlier, because I think overall,

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  workers are not necessarily happy with their jobs or lack of job. But supposedly, if you make, if you invest in your workers' well-being and actual happiness and fulfillment with their job, they're going to work more for you. They're going to work harder because they care about what they're doing.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  So, yeah. And then one of the other big things that, that shows that Taylorism is still alive and well today, Chuck, is computers, AI, whatever you want to call it. Is they've fulfilled, or they're fulfilling the role of managers that Taylor envisioned. So remember, the manager was in charge of figuring out the best way to do something and then instructing the worker to do it exactly that way at exactly that time. That is what computers do today for workers, which is a bizarre reversal of authority, I guess, if you think about it, but that's the way it is, especially in places like, you know, big warehouses or call centers.

• 49:42Josh Clark?

  There's computers essentially running the show.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And it created the management consultant industry.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  I think we should do one on that. I don't, I'm sure you remember, and I won't be very specific here, but because we've been owned by a lot of companies over the years, but one of, one time, one of the companies that owned us hired a dude that came in and we were like, who's this guy? And so I can't remember, someone who knows how these things work took us aside and they were like, he, he's, I guess, I don't know if he was a management consultant or what his official job was, but you're like, his job is to come in here and fire people and rip this place apart and then probably get a nice exit and move on to another job where he'll do that exact same thing.

• 50:24Josh Clark?

  Yes, that's what the industry does.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Do you remember that guy?

• 50:27Josh Clark?

  No, I don't remember that guy. You gotta tell me.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  I'll remind you off air.

• 50:31Josh Clark?

  Please do.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  I know Jerry's like screaming his name off air right now.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  Just one last thing. Do you have anything more about Taylorism?

• 50:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  Okay, great. Well, then I do have just one last thing. If you want kind of a lighthearted look, a comedy with heart, efficiency, check out the 1991 film, The Efficiency Expert, starring Anthony Hopkins.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were gonna say gung ho.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

  That was, yeah, kind of a different one, but yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of crossover for sure.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  What's this Tony Hopkins picture? What is it?

• 51:09Josh Clark?

  The Efficiency Expert. It's exactly what you described. And he ends up in a, I think, a factory where it, the, the workers make, they change his view of things. I think they kind of turn him around.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  If I remember correctly, I haven't seen it.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  That wouldn't have worked with the other guy that I mentioned. He was unflappable.

• 51:28Josh Clark?

  Well, anyway, we're about to end. Well, wait, hold on. We gotta do listener mail, don't we?

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I'll tell you.

• 51:34Josh Clark?

  By the way, Chuck, I gotta tell you that we ended on 45 minutes on the nose.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Holy cow.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  Yep. Way to go, champ. Oh, since I said way to go, champ, of course, that means it's time for listener mail.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Uh, this is just a nice thank you. Hey, guys, heartfelt thank you. Started listening in 2012, and although my time spent listening to podcasts has fluctuated, yours has been one of the constants. Started listening to keep my mind occupied when I had hours of mundane tasks in the lab where I worked after college, and I've continued to listen through a career change, relationship changes, getting my first dog, Luna. He sent a picture of Luna.

• 52:12Josh Clark?

  Sweet.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  And becoming a homeowner. Listening still as I'm planning a second career change and going through a little lonelier stretch of my life, and your podcast has kept me laughing and feeling connected to the world through challenging times, and I sometimes feel like there isn't the right combination of words to express my gratitude completely.

• 52:29Josh Clark?

  I feel like they just put those words together.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  I feel like you're right. Uh, some of my favorite moments in recent shows have been Chuck's throwaway line about a fairy hoax confession happening at a Men Without Hats concert. It got Josh chuckled not once, twice, but three times. And in the 15th Annual SYSK Halloween Spooktacular, the curious sound like laughter, yet not laughter that Josh made, which sounded like it had Chuck literally crying with laughter, which is absolutely true. That may be the most I've ever laughed at something that you did.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  I think it is, man.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Uh, I hope that you know for some of your listeners, your podcast has been as meaningful to us as The Simpsons or Peanuts may have been to you.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  Wow. Wow. Wow, who was that?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Stanley Knows How to Drive at Home. He signs it, "All the best, Stanley, a hayseed."

• 53:19Josh Clark?

  Right. Oh, nice. Thanks, Stanley. You're a true listener through and through, aren't you? I love that humble, like, I can't figure out how to put the words together, but here they are.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, in perfect order.

• 53:30Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Well, if you want to be like Stanley and make me say wow, not once, not twice, but thrice, then you can try your hand at it. Send us an email to [email protected].

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 54:02Josh Clark?

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