SYMHC Classics: Madame Blavatsky

This 2020 episode covers the iconic figure of mysticism, Madame Blavatsky. She was the founder of the theosophical movement, and lived a life of adventure that's hard to believe. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Deanna Flores is a flag football star, a trailblazer, an entrepreneur, and now host of a new podcast.

• 0:10Holly Frey?

  In Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every corner of culture to find the whole person behind the public identity.

• 0:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Every episode, you'll get to know Deanna, her guests, and even yourself a little better. No lectures, no know-it-all hosts, just real people being real.

• 0:26Holly Frey?

  Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores, out now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with Geico. A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on, so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 1:41Holly Frey?

  Workplace chaos. We've all been there. Deadlines are slipping, projects are piling up, and suddenly you realize the missing piece is the right person. That's when you say, "This is a job for Sponsored Jobs." With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your job post gets a boost so you can connect with quality candidates faster. In fact, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Spend less time searching and more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

• 2:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. The Old Gays are back with Silver Linings, their lovable podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with Vive Healthcare. Robert, Mick, Bill and Jessa strut back down memory lane for season two, sharing lessons on life, love and loss. These are the kind of insights that only come from experience. So tune in to Silver Linings with The Old Gays on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:48Holly Frey?

  Happy Saturday. In our episode on Joaquin Torres Garcia this week, we talked about Madame Blavatsky and how she just seems to keep showing up in our episodes in unexpected moments. So today, our episode on her is our Saturday classic.

• 3:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  This originally came out on October 5th, 2020, so enjoy.

• 3:11Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 3:22Holly Frey?

  Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frey.

• 3:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 3:26Holly Frey?

  Tracy, it's the best month of the year.

• 3:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  I know, it's your absolute favorite.

• 3:30Holly Frey?

  It is. I mean, I, in my heart, it's October every day, but now we're actually in October, which means Halloweeny content.

• 3:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 3:40Holly Frey?

  And for this October, we're doing kind of an on-ramp topic because it's a subject that I know you and I have both been kind of mentally prowling around for a bit. It is Madame Blavatsky, who is said to have gone simply by her initials of H P B. I have a hard time saying that, so I'm gonna stick to her regular name.

• 4:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Well, it's also like the name she was known by in all of her work around the English speaking world. We're not gonna try to recreate her Russian name in Russian because that's like not how she was known here.

• 4:17Holly Frey?

  Right. And Blavatsky is a figure that is iconic in a number of ways. She was the founder of the Theosophical Movement. She lived a life of adventure that is hard, very hard to believe, frankly. We'll talk a little bit about the likely embellishment of some of her life story. And you could also make the case that she, in many ways, set the image that persists to this day in pop culture of the fortune teller clad in flowing garments and fringe. She tended to play up her otherness as she traveled through the world to make a name for herself and to make a living. She is a polarizing figure to this day. There are still people that are scholars of her work and still people that are very

• 5:00Holly Frey?

  vested in disproving her work. But the important thing is that the impact of her work is still felt in the world, whether you believe her to have been a genuine mystic or a total fraud. So we are tackling Madame Blavatsky after many years of kind of looking at it and then being like, later, later.

• 5:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Well, and then also, when we were, we have each had time away from the office recently, and it was like, we were trying to get a handle on what was coming up on the show. So one of us didn't do the same thing as the other one while the other one was out and not reachable. And you sent me your list over and I was like, oh, I'm so glad this is finally on there.

• 5:41Holly Frey?

  Well, and it worked out well because, you know, this is, it's a longer episode in part because there's a lot of story for her. And her life is, is in some ways well documented and in other ways, very fuzzily documented. Picking it apart is quite tricky, but I also wanted to try to read as many different sources and biographies as I could because, as we know, and we've talked about before, some will be favorable to a subject, some will not, some will fall in the middle. And you kind of have to develop a sense of pattern recognition to see like, what is consistent biography to biography and what seems like biographer bias. And so in her case, that's a really big part of the research is just kind of trying to

• 6:24Holly Frey?

  suss out the bias versus the actual.

• 6:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Holly Frey?

  I'm literally putting your quotes around actual facts because you'll see.

• 6:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  It starts right from the beginning. The life of Madame Blavatsky was just a tangle of intensity right from her birth. She was born Elena Petrovna von Han in what was at the time Russian Ukraine. She was born August 12th, 1831, and she was born prematurely in the middle of a cholera epidemic. So that's already a lot. Elena's mother, Elena Andreevna von Han, was still a teenager, was sick with cholera when she gave birth, and both of them were not expected to live. A priest was brought in to baptize the baby quickly before she was expected to die.

• 7:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so then Elena's aunt, Nadia, who was also a child at the time, accidentally set the priest's robes on fire with a candle that she was holding. There's just so much in a birth story.

• 7:31Holly Frey?

  Right? There's just a lot going on. Elena's German father, Peter von Han, was a captain in the Royal Horse Artillery. He was in Poland when all of this happened, so he missed all of the, you know, sort of grave happenings, but also the wackiness with the, the child setting a priest on fire accidentally. He actually did not meet his daughter for six months to a year, depending on the source you look at. Accounts swerve around quite a bit on that point.

• 7:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  So of course, she did not die in infancy. She was also descended from royalty. Her grandmother was Princess Elena Pavlovna Dalgurikov, and defied convention of the day, she educated herself in everything from Greek language to botany. Elena's 17-year-old mother also survived the delivery and became a novelist shortly after that. Sometimes she's been called the Russian Georges Sand because of the similarity of the themes in her work to that of our previous podcast subject. So, young Elena grew up in a household of women who really valued writing and learning.

• 8:37Holly Frey?

  Yeah, her mother's novels are largely about women who are in marriages that do not hold enough romance or happiness for them, much like a lot of Georges Sand's work. But though Elena was born into the aristocracy and had really positive role models in terms of education for women, Elena's life as a child was not really what you would call idyllic. Her father's military career meant that they moved frequently. And there are wildly different assessments of what her relationship with her mother was like. Some indicate that the elder Elena was generally unhappy with her life and the constant moving, and would have been very pleased to just break free of her family obligations entirely.

• 9:19Holly Frey?

  Other accounts suggest that mother and daughter were in fact quite close.

• 9:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  At one point, Peter's orders took the family to St. Petersburg. And the elder Elena was finally happy, so much so that when the orders came to leave, she refused to go. The Von Hans were separated for a while. During this period, though, she did take her two daughters on a thousand mile journey with their grandfather to Ostrecon, which was at the mouth of the Volga River. The family patriarch was traveling for work. And the young Helena was exposed to Tibetan Buddhism there for the first time. Later in life, she would describe this as having made a really lasting impression on her.

• 9:59Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I didn't dig into it here, but most biographers make the point of like, her mother was so happy to be in a city and in St. Petersburg that she refused to move with her father. But then she took her kids out of St. Petersburg and went on what was actually a very long, arduous journey. So it kind of points to the fact that maybe she just didn't want to be with Peter.

• 10:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  She just maybe wanted a break.

• 10:22Holly Frey?

  Yeah. By the time Elena was nine, her parents were back together and the family was then living in Odessa. But at this point, the elder Helena, who had never really enjoyed robust health, was sick and she was getting worse. When she was finally diagnosed with tuberculosis during a pregnancy, a doctor moved in with the family full time. And that baby, a son named Leonid, was born in June 1840. And he was actually the family's second son. They had had a boy named Sasha, who had died in infancy several years earlier. And you may have have noticed that we referenced two daughters a little bit ago. And that's because at that point, there was already a second daughter. Her name was Vera. And Helena Andreevna survived the birth of her fourth child despite her illness.

• 11:07Holly Frey?

  But despite every treatment that the family's Wealth and connections could arrange for her, she did not live a whole lot longer. She died in 1842 at the age of just 28. And in an apocryphal story, her last words to her daughter were that she would not live a life like other women and that she would suffer a great deal. This is something that Blavatsky would say throughout her life. Helena, her sister Vera, and her brother Leonid were sent to live with their grandparents.

• 11:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  That sort of trope-y sentiment that Helena was not like other girls was something that was really part of the way the family described her from her youth. Her sister Vera described her as being singularly strange, and most descriptions talk about her having a duality to her personality. On the one hand, she was really rebellious and stubborn and liked to play unkind pranks and kind of talk back to adults. And on the other, she was bookish, deeply interested in the metaphysical, and really obsessed with hiding in the many tunnels and other strange hideaways that were part of their grandparents' house in the city of Saratov on the Volga River.

• 12:13Holly Frey?

  And this is also the point in the timeline where the stories of her unusual paranormal abilities are rooted. So according to family stories, which are of course not verifiable, Helena would play with what seemed to be ghosts, and she would sleepwalk into the unused passages of the house and developed the ability to put birds to sleep using something that she called Solomon's Wisdom. We don't know what that was. There is literally nothing that tries to explain what Solomon's Wisdom was. And of course, the family lore around Helena mentions her fascination with the dead from the time she was a child.

• 12:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  Once the children had relocated to Saratov and weren't just not constantly moving around to accommodate their father's career anymore, their education settled into more consistent and formalized structures. But even so, and in spite of coming from a pretty progressive family, in terms of women and education, this was largely about preparing her to be an aristocratic wife. So she was learning French, studying art and music, but things like math and science were not really part of the curriculum.

• 13:23Holly Frey?

  Nope. She was supposed to learn how to be very pretty and quiet and to be able to entertain her husband with talks of culture, but not really anything else. And there are a lot of stories of the ways in which Helena, in her early years, comes into contact with the occult and the mystical just before her own deeper connection to that world is said to have manifested. So she allegedly learned about bee communication and plants that had mystical uses from what is usually referred to as a serf on the family property. His name is listed as Berenig Buyak. And while traveling with her grandparents, she was again exposed to a number of other cultures and ideas

• 14:06Holly Frey?

  and was once again completely fascinated with Tibetan Buddhism in particular.

• 14:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  She also started to mention a protector that she saw in her dreams during her late childhood, and she described this protector, which was her name for him, as a tall man from India. There were several accidents that happened to her where she narrowly escaped serious injury, and she attributed her lack of damage to the intervention of this protector figure.

• 14:35Holly Frey?

  Yeah, in one instance, she had stacked a table with other furniture and climbed it to get a look at a portrait that was high on the wall of her grandparents' home. There's a whole layer to this story where the portrait is covered with a curtain and nobody wants anybody to see it. And so that makes it more alluring, and we don't ever find out what the portrait is. But when she peeked behind it to the forbidden painting, whatever it was, was either so shocking or startling that she passed out and fell from this giant stack of furniture. And she claimed that when she came to, everything was back where it belonged. All of the furniture had been put back in its proper place. And the only evidence of her clandestine climb

• 15:17Holly Frey?

  was a handprint that she had left high on the wall and on a dusty surface. And then on another occasion, she was thrown from a horse, and she said that her protector had appeared and saved her by holding her head, so it did not impact on the ground.

• 15:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  There's also a sort of incongruous piece of travel information that comes up around the same time that she started seeing this protector. Later in life, she mentioned having gone to England with her father when she was 12 or 13. There's really no record of this trip. It's not corroborated by her sister's diary at the time. So historians tend to be of two views on this sort of strange standout piece in the whole Madame Blavatsky puzzle. Either it never happened, or it happened, but she recalled the timeline incorrectly. And this trip really took place closer to 1850, when she was 17 or 18, instead of 12 or 13.

• 16:12Holly Frey?

  There will be so many inconsistencies with where she is and when. Accepting all of these stories, of course, requires a bit of faith, because there isn't a way to corroborate the appearance of a spirit that only appears to one person, or even to verify simple events that are part of family history but have no actual record, right? We don't know if she was thrown from a horse. No one would have, like, recorded that in any way. We don't know if she climbed this table full of things and was somehow protected and cleaned up after by a friendly spirit, because, like, there's not, like, anybody files a report on that.

• 16:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  When it came to this protector, Helena also didn't seem content to just use the idea as a means of explaining the unexplainable. As a teenager, she became really fixated on studying what exactly was at work when strange events happened around her. So she read, according to her own account, books on alchemy, magic, and the occult. These had been part of her great-grandfather's royal library. And included in these volumes, there was even a book by the previous podcast subject, Saint Germain, if that account is actually true. Reading the work of other explorers of the unknown gave her this base of knowledge that she then used as her jumping off point with her own mystical and philosophical

• 17:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  explorations.

• 17:38Holly Frey?

  Helena's teenage years were a time full of significant change, as is pretty normal for a teenager, although hers is not always that normal. We're gonna delve into that after we first pause for a sponsor break.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 17:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hey, everybody. It's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  It could rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 18:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 18:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  With the fan's experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 18:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 18:49Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 18:53Holly Frey?

  Deanna Flores, flag football star, trailblazer, broadcaster, and entrepreneur, knows what pressure feels like. She knows what it takes to step up in the moment, and she knows that even the biggest achievement is never the end of the story.

• 19:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the new podcast, Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every corner of culture, including sports, business, wellness, and entertainment, to find the whole person behind the public identity.

• 19:17Holly Frey?

  Whether she's talking to an athlete on the field, a founder heading into a pitch, or a musician before a show, the conversation starts with the official bio ends.

• 19:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Every episode, Deanna shares her own experiences, questions, and even doubts. Her guests learn from her, she learns from them, and you might pick up something along the way. No lectures, no know-it-all host, just real people being real.

• 19:39Holly Frey?

  Come curious and leave with something you can use.

• 19:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores out now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with GEICO.

• 19:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  So you're considering getting a home security system, but you want something that fits your space. Well, with ADT Blue, it's easy to customize a system that's right for you and set it up yourself. Just pick the kit and monitoring plan that makes sense for your home. Let's say you're worried about package theft. The ADT Plus app can walk you through setting up a new doorbell camera kit. Once it's installed, ADT Pros can help you keep tabs on it 24/7, or you can manage it yourself from the ADT Plus app. There are no long-term contracts, so you can change your monitoring plan whenever you want. The flexibility doesn't end there. You can add to your system as you need to with things like extra cameras or motion sensors. Some life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT Blue,

• 20:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  you can DIY trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown-up topics, check out new episodes of Grown-Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:01Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other?

• 21:46Holly Frey?

  Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:56Speaker 06

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 22:33Holly Frey?

  When Helena was 15, her life shifted once again. Her grandfather's appointment as governor of Saratov ended. And at that point, Helena, Vera, and Leonid first spent a year with an aunt before joining their grandparents in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, which was called Tiflis at the time. As she turned 16, Helena had started to speak about a double life that she was leading. One was her normal, everyday life, and the other was her astral life. She also made the acquaintance of Prince Alexander Golitsyn, who was similarly interested in the mystical and had traveled the world seeking out experts and practitioners of various occult and magical activities. Golitsyn is said to have encouraged Helena's interest in this secondary spiritual life

• 23:18Holly Frey?

  and specifically advised her to travel the same way that he had to learn more about the unknown. When Helena was 17, there was once again a sudden change in her circumstance, but this time in the form of a marriage. Seemingly out of nowhere, she wed Nikofor Blavatsky, a man in his 40s who was vice-governor of the Aravon Province of Armenia. How this match happened is another place in Helena's life where the stories differ really significantly. There are some theories that she may have just run off and gotten married as an act of rebellion against her father or her governess, who she was having some conflict with. And again, that depends on the source you read. It also might have been a hastily arranged marriage

• 24:02Holly Frey?

  made by the family in the hopes of tethering the increasingly restless Helena to her home in some way. But in later years, she herself also said that Nikahfor, unlike a lot of the men closer to her age, never mocked her interest in the mystical and would talk to her about things that he had learned in other places and cultures that might interest her as she studied such matters.

• 24:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  This was not a good match, though. Helena got cold feet before the wedding even happened, and she tried to back out. She vanished for several days, and there were rumors that she had met up with Gulyatson. But she returned from wherever she had gone in time for the wedding. That wedding took place on July 7, 1849. And she's said to have refused to do the vow of honoring and obeying her new husband, but otherwise, the ceremony did go as planned. According to Helena, though, this marriage was never consummated, and we'll come back to this.

• 24:56Holly Frey?

  No sooner was this wedding over than Helena began a series of attempts to run away from her new husband and her new life. She and Nikahfor lived in the Palace of Sardar in Araven, and she spent a great deal of time, it seems, evading guards who wished she would just stay put. Eventually, she did manage to get past the guards, and she ran back to her family in Tiflis. And at that point, the decision was made to ship her off to her father and see if that might help.

• 25:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  But she purposely missed the boat and then bribed a different boat captain to take her to Kirch. She traveled with two members of her family's household staff and assured them that she was still planning to rendezvous with her father, but then she gave them the slip. Similarly, after some issues with the captain of the English ship, the Commodore, which was the captain she had bribed, she ran away again. The captain's boat was boarded by harbor police, who were looking for this runaway aristocrat. And while she managed to evade capture by dressing as a cabin boy, the captain probably did not like all of this fuss. Soon she was gone, and this was the start of just a wild decade.

• 26:07Holly Frey?

  The next nine years of Helena Blavatsky's life are very murky. She did not trust her family not to send her back to her husband if she told them where she was. So she didn't, with the possible exception of her father, who might have occasionally been sending her money. And because of the cloak and dagger nature of her travels, plenty of unlikely stories about just what she was up to during those years of travel abound. Blavatsky's own accounts of this period of her life shifted and changed over the years, sometimes in ways that contradicted one another or created impossibilities in terms of the timeline.

• 26:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  The first place that Madame Blavatsky explored was Constantinople. Later, she shared that it was here that she met opera singer Agardy Metrovic after finding him stabbed and left for dead in the street. Blavatsky stood watch over him with a pistol to ward off anybody who had ill intent while waiting for somebody to help her arrange for him to get help. She did find some non-nefarious help eventually, and Metrovic was treated and recovered. The two of them remained friends for the remaining two decades of the singer's life.

• 27:19Holly Frey?

  Helena is also said to have made the acquaintance of the Countess Sofia Kislev in Constantinople, who she traveled with for several months, often disguised as a young man. They went to Egypt and Greece together before heading to Eastern Europe.

• 27:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Metrovic and Helena then turned up together somewhere in Europe. Metrovic wrote to Helena's grandfather to tell him that the two were married.

• 27:41Holly Frey?

  This is all very blurry. We don't know if this was like a, I'm your friend. I'm gonna tell your grandparents that like, we're together now and explain this to your husband, or if he really thought they were getting married. It's, again, everything murky, murky, murky.

• 27:59Holly Frey?

  But we do know that by the early 1850s, Blavatsky was first in Paris and then in London. And in England, she had what she claimed was a significant spiritual experience. She met a man from India who she claimed to already know. Remember that protector from her childhood? She said that this man, who she called Master Moria, sometimes she'll just call him the master, was one and the same. And the specifics around exactly when and where she met him shifted in her own accounts. She told different people that she had seen him in a crowd first and recognized him. Others that she had met him at Waterloo Bridge when she was considering suicide. Another version was that she ran into him at the great exhibition.

• 28:43Holly Frey?

  And also that she met him in the seaside town of Ramsgate. But all of these versions, even though they are different, include his seeking her out to tell her that she must spend several years in Tibet.

• 28:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Before trying to make a path to Tibet, though, she headed to Canada. She was inspired by the writing of James Fenimore Cooper to seek out First Nations peoples. She found these encounters disappointing, though, and she attributed this disappointment to the indigenous population having been exposed to Christian missionaries. There's some layers here.

• 29:18Holly Frey?

  There are so many layers, and she's very problematic when it comes to her interactions with people of other cultures. Because she does that thing where she simultaneously fetishizes them and criticizes the heck out of them as not being what she wanted them to be. It's very problematic. But after this time in Canada, she is said to have moved south to New Orleans and then into Texas before leaving North America for India. And she made it to India, she stayed in Bombay first for two years. And it's said that during this time, masters of ancient wisdom also told her to go to Tibet to learn about the integration of science, religion, and philosophy.

• 30:04Holly Frey?

  But she couldn't really make her way into Tibet. That was tricky at this time.

• 30:11Holly Frey?

  Europeans, not so much welcome. Tibet was very closed off at this point.

• 30:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  She decided to head back to England. Once she got there, she had quite the tale of her journey. She claimed that the ship she was on had wrecked near the Cape of Good Hope and that she was one of 21 survivors. After allegedly meeting with the master again in the home of someone she says she didn't know, Elena Blavatsky made her way to North America again.

• 30:39Holly Frey?

  Yeah, this is the point in her story where I was like, she's lost all sense of even grounding her tales in any sort of reality.

• 30:48Holly Frey?

  Like this whole, oh, I took a ship from India and it was shipwrecked. 21 of us survived. There's no account of how she got back to Europe from that point.

• 31:00Holly Frey?

  Yeah, it's a little bit, a little bit kooky. But she landed in New York and then she headed west, first to Chicago and then to Salt Lake City. And from there, she moved on to San Francisco, where she boarded a steamer to Japan. From there, it was on to India and this time, with the help of a guide and disguised herself, she claimed to have entered Tibet in 1856 at last. The timeline of her travels was written up and published by Blavatsky in the Moscow Chronicle under the pen name Radabai. From Tibet, she was eventually ordered by the mysterious master to travel back to Europe.

• 31:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  All of this is disputed.

• 31:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's entirely possible that she was just hanging out in Europe this whole time. As Holly said earlier, Tibet was pretty closed off to Europeans. She might have managed to gain access to Tibet if she was traveling with one of the people that she name checked as a spiritual master from the surrounding area. But, I mean, these are kind of long odds on this. There's just never been any corroborating information for these claims.

• 32:07Holly Frey?

  But while the years from 1849 to 1858 are really only known by what Blavatsky said she did, we do know that she was back in Russia with her family on Christmas 1858. Once again, the family noted the strange phenomena that seemed to always surround her.

• 32:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Helena went back to her husband, Nikifor, in 1862. But Agardy Metrovic then showed up in Tiflis not long after, claiming his own rights as her husband. This whole thing is really messy and unclear. And then to confuse the situation further, she adopted a boy named Yuri with Nikifor. The couple didn't stay together. Yuri died at the age of five and was buried as Yuri Metrovic. Yuri's actual parentage is also a matter of debate. Madame Blavatsky said that this was the out of wedlock son of her sister in law and a barren Mayendorf.

• 33:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Rumors arose and continued that he was actually the child of Helena and Metrovic.

• 33:12Holly Frey?

  Yeah, it's a big, it's a big cluster and mystery. We don't know. There's so many, I feel like she was so good at creating such a pastiche of confusing details about her life that no one could untangle them and be like, wait, this doesn't add up.

• 33:27Holly Frey?

  In 1864, Blavatsky had a horse riding accident that actually left her in a coma for several months. And she said that when she came out of that coma, her paranormal abilities had been fully actualized. After this, she was once again on the move throughout Europe before once again receiving instructions from the master to go to Constantinople, then India and into Tibet. Again, all unsubstantiated.

• 33:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  We're about to get to the phase of Blavatsky's life where she became associated with spiritualism. Before we get into that, let's take a quick break and hear from some of the sponsors that keep stuff you missed in history class going.

• 34:07Holly Frey?

  Deanna Flores, flag football star, trailblazer, broadcaster and entrepreneur, knows what pressure feels like. She knows what it takes to step up in the moment and she knows that even the biggest achievement is never the end of the story.

• 34:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the new podcast, Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every corner of culture, including sports, business, wellness and entertainment.

• 34:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  To find the whole person behind the public identity.

• 34:32Holly Frey?

  Whether she's talking to an athlete on the field, a founder heading into a pitch, or a musician before a show, the conversation starts with the official bio ends.

• 34:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Every episode, Deanna shares her own experiences, questions, and even doubts. Her guests learn from her, she learns from them, and you might pick up something along the way. No lectures, no know-it-all host, just real people being real.

• 34:54Holly Frey?

  Come curious and leave with something you can use.

• 34:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores, out now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with Geico.

• 35:09Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each

• 35:53Holly Frey?

  other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:04Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 36:33Speaker 07

  Hey, it's Covino and Rich Davis from Covino and Rich. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 37:13Holly Frey?

  In the 1870s, Blavatsky became involved with the spiritualist movement. If you are a longtime listener to the podcast, you may recall that the modern spiritualist movement is usually cited as beginning with the Fox sisters and their claims of communication with spirits in 1848. Previous hosts Sarah and Dublina did a whole episode on their story.

• 37:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  So by the time Helena Blavatsky became connected to it, spiritualism had been getting attention, particularly in the United States, for a couple of decades and had grown very popular, even though it also had plenty of doubters right from the beginning. And although Madame Blavatsky became connected to spiritualism, she was ideologically not 100% aligned with it. The idea of spiritualism involved communication with the souls of the deceased. She didn't believe that events like séances were making contact with the dead, but instead that the entities being reached were elementals or shells, not actual souls. She did really love a séance, though.

• 38:17Holly Frey?

  Oh, she certainly did, because that was part of her fully actualized paranormal abilities after she came out of that coma, was that she could contact other realms through séances. And it is through her work conducting séances that she met the man who would become one of her greatest admirers and most enthusiastic collaborators. Madame Blavatsky had made her way back to North America by 1873. She was living in New York City at the time, and she was actually kind of struggling to get by. She was working in a sweatshop, making artificial flowers to support herself. And then she met Henry Steele Olcott at a séance in Vermont.

• 38:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Olcott was, in a lot of ways, the last person you would expect to have responded positively to spiritualism. He had served in the US Army during the American Civil War. He had a career as a lawyer working on fraud cases. And by the time he met Blavatsky, he was working as an investigative journalist. He found himself at Blavatsky's séance because he was conducting investigative research into what a lot of people suspected were not spiritual experiences at all, but the work of charlatans. Olcott had already written a number of articles about spiritualism and was becoming more and more fascinated by it.

• 39:35Holly Frey?

  Yeah, there's a whole story about the farm that they're at, which was run by these people that were having séances and making money off of it. Like, they were, you know, charging entry fees and booking spiritualists to come in and do these, I want to call them performances, but these, uh, these events. But even before the séance began, Olcott could not help but notice Helena, who stood out in the farming town of Chittenden, Vermont. Her manner of dress, including a bright red tunic and a fur tobacco pouch, her many rings, her blonde curly hair, which Olcott described as "like the fleece of a Cotswold ewe," and the fact that he overheard her speaking French to a friend, all drew the journalist in. He

• 40:18Holly Frey?

  was completely fascinated. Here's how he wrote of her later, quote, "This lady, Madame Helen P. Blavatsky, has led a very eventful life, traveling in most of the lands of the Orient, searching for antiquities at the base of the pyramids, witnessing the mysteries of Hindu temples, and pushing with an armed escort far into the interior of Africa. The adventures she has encountered, the strange people she has seen, the perils by sea and land she has passed through, would make one of the most romantic stories ever told by a biographer."

• 40:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the whole course of my experience, I never met so interesting and, if I may say without offense, eccentric a character. Olcott's endorsement went a really long way in terms of validating Blavatsky's personal story. And he also called her, quote, "a lady of such social position as to be incapable of entering into a vulgar conspiracy with any pair of tricksters to deceive the public."

• 41:21Holly Frey?

  He was like all in. He believed everything she said without fact checking, it seemed. The séance that Olcott witnessed sounds a little more like a stage show. Various spirits made appearances, as in showing up onstage. A Native American woman, a man from the country of Georgia, the spirit of a German man, and the French-Canadian father of one of the attendees, who gave responses to questions posed in French by making rapping noises, and in one instance is said to have audibly uttered the word "we."

• 41:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  A journalist writing for The Smithsonian, Edward Hauer, described Olcott as having "one of the most dramatic midlife crises in history in his relationship with Blavatsky." Some takes on their relationship suggest that Madame Blavatsky was a homewrecker who caused Olcott's divorce. He was actually already estranged from his wife and in the legal proceedings to end that marriage before the two of them met. Rumors of an affair between the two of them persisted, though, in part because he moved in with her when they both got back to New York.

• 42:30Holly Frey?

  Even so, while Blavatsky and Olcott may have been emotionally very intimate, it really does seem unlikely that they had a romantic relationship, at least not one that manifested physically. We mentioned that Helena always said her first marriage was never consummated, and she claimed later in life that she had never had a sexual relationship with anyone. She generally described herself in a way that today might be categorized as asexual. She once said, quote, "I had a volcano in constant eruption in my brain and a glacier at the foot of the mountain." But she and Olcott tended to refer to one another as chum. So they were close, but her characterization as a mistress who lured him away from his wife really doesn't quite track.

• 43:16Holly Frey?

  Olcott, by the way, was known to have had mistresses. He sounds like something of a ladies' man, but it doesn't appear that Blavatsky was one of them.

• 43:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Olcott was a major boon to Madame Blavatsky's public persona through his writing, as well as a source of financial support. Their shared apartment became an epicenter for spiritualist gatherings, and they routinely hosted seances and discussions of the paranormal there. Blavatsky would invite journalists to visit, so they would see that she was no trickster, just merely a woman who was in touch with other realms.

• 43:50Holly Frey?

  And it was in this haven for discussion of the paranormal and occult that Colonel Henry Olcott suggested that they formalize their gatherings under an official organization that could study all of the mystical and spiritual subjects that they were all interested in. And this marks the beginning of the Theosophical Society, which sought to create an identity for itself that was separate from the spiritualist movement. And to help shape that identity, Helena began writing.

• 44:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  One of the numerous reasons that Blavatsky was and remains a figure of controversy is really clear in her writing from this period. She published her book, Isis Unveiled, in 1877. Olcott edited it. And she leveled a lot of criticism at both organized religion and the scientific community. She thought that both groups were missing the real path to enlightenment and insight. Theosophy, according to Helena Blavatsky, was the answer. And it was, to quote her, "the synthesis of science, religion, and philosophy." It was a way to bring those three disciplines together.

• 44:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  This book was both praised and panned, and Blavatsky put all of the reviews into a scrapbook.

• 45:03Holly Frey?

  Isis Unveiled is something of a hodgepodge. It borrows from religions all over the world, pulling in ideas which Blavatsky adapted from memory, although she claimed that it was largely dictated to her telepathically by masters of ancient and secret knowledge. Its deepest roots are in Helena's versions of Buddhism and Hinduism, but she incorporated so many varied ideas because she envisioned theosophy as something that could unite the world's varied systems of beliefs.

• 45:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Although Madame Blavatsky had managed to amass a following in the United States, it didn't really sustain itself. And as her influence and the members of the Theosophical Society fizzled out, she and Alcott decided to move on, and supporting Blavatsky and touting her gifts, he had really squandered his good name among his fellow journalists in the United States who had really just taken to mocking him openly about it.

• 45:59Holly Frey?

  Yeah, he kind of tanked his career. To prepare to leave with an eye towards India, Helena Blavatsky became a US citizen. And the thinking here was that if things went badly overseas, she would have the protection of the consulate in India. She and the Colonel also sold off all of their belongings. They cleared out their cool apartment, and on December 17th, 1878, they left the US for India.

• 46:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  More specifically than simply going to India, though, Alcott and Blavatsky intended for the Theosophical Society to join up with the Arya Samaj, which was a Hindu reform movement that had started in 1875. Alcott and Blavatsky were novelties in Bombay. They openly criticized colonialism and they embraced Eastern religious ideas. And in doing so, they kind of became media darlings for a time.

• 46:50Holly Frey?

  Through a spiritualist named Alfred Percy Sennett, who edited a British newspaper that published in India, the founders of the Theosophical Society were booked at seances throughout British society that lived in Bombay at the time. Colonialism seemed to be a little more palatable if that meant it led to paying gigs for them. These seances featured all kinds of paranormal happenings. When Sennett's wife, for example, mentioned a lost brooch that she longed to find, Blavatsky told her it had rematerialized in her flowerbeds. Those flowerbeds were dug up, and lo, the brooch! She is also said to have produced a spray of roses in midair, which fell on the heads of people in the room when a visitor said that she could not produce a miracle.

• 47:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Olcott and Blavatsky set up their Theosophical Society headquarters in Bombay in 1879. Madame Blavatsky became the editor of their periodical, The Theosophist, which was a role she would have for the next nine years.

• 47:50Holly Frey?

  Olcott toured the Indian subcontinent, giving lectures. He spoke against British efforts to convert Buddhists to Christianity. And on a trip to Sri Lanka, which was, of course, still called Ceylon at the time, he and Madame Blavatsky publicly took Buddhist vows. Olcott took a deep interest in Ceylon and contributed to the Buddhist community there in a variety of ways, from opening schools, to writing religious study texts, to designing a flag, which is still in use today. He also started working as a healer. He believed that magnetism had curative properties and that he could manipulate it to administer to all manner of ailments.

• 48:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  While the beginning of Blavatsky's and Olcott's time in Bombay and Ceylon was joyous, the tides eventually turned. The members of the Theosophical Society asked Olcott to stop healing people. The public version of this story was that they felt like it was depleting his energy, but there was also likely some kind of version about it being problematic. Then Olcott and Blavatsky became embroiled in a dispute when a woman that they had taken under their wing as a medium, named Emma Columbe, started to hold obviously fake seances to make easy money. Next, the head of the Arya Samaj denounced theosophy very publicly as he believed the

• 49:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  incorporation of all faiths was not in line with his group's ideology. He had come to view Blavatsky and Olcott as untrustworthy.

• 49:20Holly Frey?

  Yeah, he had pamphlets written up talking about how he had changed his mind and believed that they were charlatans. And things only got worse from there. Alfred Percy Sennett, who we mentioned just a little while ago, had published a book of letters. And these letters were alleged to have come from the masters that Madame Blavatsky knew. But one of them was obviously plagiarized from an American periodical and someone recognized it. And so the press, which had initially welcomed the theosophists, turned on Blavatsky. They first started to question her legitimacy as a psychic and soon she was just flat out accused of being a fraud in all the papers. She and Olcott moved their headquarters from Bombay to Madras in 1882 to get away from the controversy.

• 50:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  That worked for a while, but within a few years, there was another, much bigger controversy. Emma Cullum, who had been doing those fake seances, published a series of letters in a Madras periodical. She said they were written to her by Helena Blavatsky. They clearly instructed her to create fake miraculous and paranormal events to support their various stories. Blavatsky and Olcott dismissed these letters as fakes, but they found themselves viewed with just a whole new level of suspicion.

• 50:38Holly Frey?

  Yeah, there's a really fun story in there about making a life-size doll that they kind of like were puppeteering in like darkness to try to convince people they were being visited by the masters that Blavatsky often referenced. There's some very fun and kooky theatricality to it. And that is how the London Society for Psychical Research came to open an investigation into Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society. That investigation, which was conducted by Richard Hodgson, was aided by none other than Emma Cullum, who showed how, among other things, the miracle of things like letters dropping into visitors' laps, seemingly from thin air, was actually achieved through a bit of theatrical trickery.

• 51:21Holly Frey?

  There was a thread and hook system in the ceiling. A handwriting expert was also called upon to weigh in on whether the letters that Cullum had provided as evidence of Madame Blavatsky's treachery were indeed written by Blavatsky. We have talked on the show before about some of the problems with handwriting analysis, but this was very damning at the time.

• 51:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  In 1885, parapsychologist Richard Hodgson filed his report, which concluded that Blavatsky was a fraud. Alcott was found to merely have been incredibly gullible. After the Hodgson report, Blavatsky left India, although she continued to edit The Theosophist. The damage of this report was far reaching. In addition to discrediting Blavatsky in a very public way, it also sowed some conflict between her and Alcott. When Helena Blavatsky filed a slander suit against Richard Hodgson and the Society for Psychical Research, Alcott did not support that. He instead wanted to just let things die down the way they had in the past.

• 52:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  To Helena, this really felt like a betrayal. It essentially ended their partnership and their friendship.

• 52:33Holly Frey?

  Madame Blavatsky, who was quite ill at the time due to a problem with her liver, took a steamer to Europe. And despite the apparent seriousness of her health when she left India, she did make a recovery. After spending some time in Belgium, she established the Blavatsky Lodge of London in 1887. And in 1888, she released the work that she's probably most well-known for, which is called The Secret Doctrine, and that was a comprehensive look at theosophy.

• 53:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  While she was writing this book, she had shifted focus away from the paranormal and wrote more extensively about philosophy. The book's subhead is, "There is no religion higher than truth." In the introduction, Blavatsky makes her goal clear. Quote, "The aim of this work may be thus stated: to show that nature is not a fortuitous concurrence of atoms, and to assign to man his rightful place in the scheme of the universe; to rescue from degradation the archaic truths which are the basis of all religions; to uncover, to some extent, the fundamental unity from which they all spring; finally, to show that the occult side of nature has never been approached by the science of modern civilization."

• 53:43Holly Frey?

  In 1889, she published two more books. The Voice of Silence has the subtitle, "Translated from the Book of the Golden Precepts, which shares a common origin with the secret doctrine. The rules and ethics presented here contrast the two paths of spiritual attainment, the one pursued by those seeking knowledge for their own enlightenment, the other chosen by those whose aspirations are prompted by compassion for all."

• 54:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Her other book to come out that year was Key to Theosophy, being a clear exposition in the form of question and answer of the ethics, science, and philosophy for the study of which the Theosophical Society has been founded.

• 54:21Holly Frey?

  Even though these were very popular and they continued to actually be printed, they were her really final achievements. Madame Blavatsky died on May 8, 1891, at the tail end of an influenza epidemic. And that date of her death is now celebrated annually by theosophists as White Lotus Day.

• 54:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Long after her death, starting in 1950, Madame Blavatsky's collected writings were published. The full publication spanned 15 volumes and it came out over the course of 40 years.

• 54:52Holly Frey?

  Blavatsky is often credited with bringing Buddhism and Hinduism to the Western audience. And this is a little bit tricky to celebrate, of course, since these ideas were being channeled through a European lens. We also don't know really what the depth of her exposure was to these things before she started talking about them as though she were an expert. And since the study of these belief systems on the part of Blavatsky is difficult to corroborate in any level, particularly in her earlier years, I just want people to recognize that that has to all be taken with a grain of salt.

• 55:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  We do have to note, though, that the Theosophical Society persists despite these bumpy times during Blavatsky's life. Her books continue to be pretty popular. Additionally, the Blavatsky Lodge in London is still there, although it has changed locations from where it was when Madame Blavatsky initially established it.

• 55:47Holly Frey?

  And as for that damning report of 1885 that declared Madame Blavatsky a fraud, in 1986, the Society for Psychical Research retracted it due to a review that found that Hodgson had set out to discredit Blavatsky and that his research and his methods were biased toward that. Although, there are a lot of the issues that Hodgson raised that remain unanswered. This is one of those things you'll sometimes find argued about on the internet that some people will say this is vindication of Madame Blavatsky and others are like, no, no, they're just pointing out that the research was bad, not weighing in really on whether that conclusion would have been reached otherwise. Right.

• 56:30Holly Frey?

  Like I said, she continues to be very polarizing. I find her utterly fascinating. Mm-hmm. But I don't have a strong opinion. I have some opinions, but they're not strong and they're kind of cloudy for me anyway, which is unusual, just because there's always part of me that's like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know anything. So.

• 56:56Holly Frey?

  Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note, our email address is [email protected]. And you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 57:18Holly Frey?

  Deanna Flores is a flag football star, a trailblazer, an entrepreneur, and now host of a new podcast. In Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every corner of culture to find the whole person behind the public identity. Every episode, you'll get to know Deanna, her guests, and even yourself a little better. No lectures, no know-it-all host, just real people being real. Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores, out now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with Geico. A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, life With a severe autoimmune condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation

• 58:01Holly Frey?

  with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 58:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on, so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 58:55Speaker 07

  Hey, it's Lunchbox from the Bobby Bones Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or an adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 59:33Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.