Pod Insights Stuff You Missed in History Class Behind the Scenes Minis: Tracy’s Frustration About this episode Tracy shares issues she has with overly reductive internet videos that misrepresent the story of nixtamalization. She and Holly also discuss the various ways they like to eat corn.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:09 Holly Frey? We've all tumbled down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose, and it leaves us more anxious than informed. Our feeds are full of wellness trends, but how do we know what's real, what's exaggerated, and what's just wrong? Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends, not to cancel them, but to understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. So listen to Health vs. Hype wherever you get your podcasts.
1:41 Tracy V. Wilson? The Old Gays are back with Silver Linings, their lovable podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Robert, Mick, Bill, and Jessa strut back down memory lane for season two, sharing lessons on life, love, and loss. These are the kind of insights that only come from experience. So tune in to Silver Linings with The Old Gays on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2:09 Holly Frey? Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.
2:20 Tracy V. Wilson? Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
2:23 Holly Frey? And I'm Holly Frey.
2:24 Tracy V. Wilson? We talked about pallagra for two episodes.
2:27 Holly Frey? We sure did.
2:29 Tracy V. Wilson? I said in the episodes, I was not expecting or planning for two. Did not know about all the stuff that was involved in Italy. Of course, as we said, that there is, is and has been pallagra in parts of the world besides the Southern US and Italy, but it became a particular problem in those places. And still today, places where especially people are living mostly on corn, a lot of times corn that has been, through well-meaning ways, donated from the international community to places where there is famine, or unrest, or war, or whatever.
3:08 Tracy V. Wilson? We are going to talk about Tracy's frustration in this episode, and the frustration is overly reductive internet videos.
3:17 Holly Frey? Okay.
3:18 Tracy V. Wilson? Because I watched several videos about Nishthalization. And several of them had this sort of narrative of this is how the indigenous peoples of the Americas, really all across the Americas, some nuances to how different nations and peoples did things, but like some kind of treatment of the corn with alkaline water or ash or something that was making the niacin more bioavailable. And then it would be like, but the colonizers thought that was stupid, and they didn't want to do it, and that's why there was pallagra. And that's not really accurate.
4:02 Holly Frey? Right.
4:03 Tracy V. Wilson? Because foods like hominy and masa, masa harina, all the things that are made with masa, like, those became foods that the colonists were also eating. Hominy in particular, the poorest people were eating. And that continued to be the case for centuries after colonization started. Like we said in the episode, it is like, there seems to be a correlation between milling technologies, particularly the big de-germinator that was patented in like 1902. There seems to be a correlation between that and polagorates because now there was a way to give corn a really long shelf life that didn't involve ne-stimulizing it that was more labor intensive.
4:49 Tracy V. Wilson? So like, the problem was not that colonizers were being picky about indigenous foodways. The problem was capitalism exploiting people and trying to give the poorest people the cheapest, lowest quality food possible as their staple. But there, I watched so many videos that had that as the narrative that I started to second guess myself. I was like, I really thought that people were for sure eating hominy and poor people for sure eating hominy. I can't speak to Mesoamerica and South America, but like all over North America at least, like what's going on with this?
5:30 Tracy V. Wilson? And I started looking through old recipe books to be like, am I just, am I, am I misunderstanding something fundamental? And so now I'm going to read to you from a 1924 USDA Farmer's Bulletin.
5:47 Holly Frey? Okay.
5:48 Tracy V. Wilson? Prepared in the Bureau of Home Economics, a bureau that we have a whole episode on. This is on, from a Farmer's Bulletin called Corn and Its Uses for Food. And this is a section called Lie, Harmony, or Hull Corn. Quote, "This is easily made at home from any variety of white or yellow dent or flint corn. The kinds with fairly large kernels are easier to hull than those with small kernels, and only clean, sound ears should be used. The hulls and germs are loosened by steeping the corn in a lye solution, rubbing off the hulls, then washing out the lye, and finally boiling the corn."
6:32 Tracy V. Wilson? Sometimes the kernels are boiled with the lye, but cold soaking is also effacious and gives what many consider a more delicate flavor. The Division of Cereal Investigations of the Bureau of Plant Industry recommends the following method: Dissolve five ounces of lye, sodium hydroxide or caustic soda, in six quarts of cold water. Stir in five quarts of corn and let it stand 15 hours. Wash thoroughly to remove the lye and the hulls. Rubbing the hominy in a cloth bag helps to take off the hulls. When the washing is finished, the hull and black tip should be off and the kernel should look clean. The slight discoloration which the lye causes may be removed by soaking the hominy overnight
7:16 Tracy V. Wilson? in water to which a little salt has been added. Cover with water, to which five tablespoons of salt have been added, and boil in a covered kettle for three to four hours or until thoroughly cooked, making sure that the hominy remains covered with water. Changing the water once or twice during the cooking will lessen the taste of the lye. Five quarts of corn will make from 15 to 20 quarts of lye-hominy. This was just one part of this bulletin that had numerous recipes for things that you can make with hominy. And the Bureau of Home Economics did not advocate for foods that they thought were weird or, quote, "ethnic."
8:00 Tracy V. Wilson? We talked about that in our episode on them. So after really just sort of like questioning, I was like, but hominy, though? No, really, like, people really were eating a lot of hominy. And it really was not people's personal food preferences that led to cornmeal being the only thing that was sold in the company store. Right. So, anyway, I got really, I got a bee in my bonnet about that. Like, I get the wanting to make that the narrative. I totally understand that. And there are a lot of... Indigenous foods that are totally overlooked, or foods that are indigenous developments that people who are not indigenous have no idea that's where it came from.
8:43 Holly Frey? Right.
8:44 Tracy V. Wilson? All that's valid, but I was like, this is not, people were still eating Hominy, though. They're still eating Hominy today. I could go to the store and I can buy Hominy off the shelf.
8:55 Holly Frey? You know what I wondered through this whole thing?
8:57 Tracy V. Wilson? What?
8:58 Holly Frey? How are people not passing out all the time? Like, I'm a low blood sugar baby, and if I don't have a high proglow, I'm gonna crash really hard.
9:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:09 Holly Frey? I can't even imagine subsisting exclusively off of...
9:14 Tracy V. Wilson? Cornmeal.
9:15 Holly Frey? Cornmeal, or even just all, like, you know, relatively simple carbohydrates.
9:20 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:21 Holly Frey? I would not be in a good place.
9:22 Tracy V. Wilson? A little fat back in there.
9:24 Holly Frey? That might help a little, but for a minute, but eventually I'm gonna stop functioning.
9:29 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:30 Holly Frey? Like, without pellagra involved at all.
9:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Right, right.
9:35 Holly Frey? I'm like, no, the mental illness is because my brain is not getting any of the things it needs to keep going.
9:43 Holly Frey? Yeah, yeah, that's, like, the scariest to me is, like, entire diets with no protein in them. I'm like, what is, no!
9:58 Speaker 01 That sound? That's pro squash. Some of the fastest rallies in sport played inches from the crowd. The National Squash League is back in full swing for season four. The sport is heading to the 2028 Olympics for the first time, and you can see it up close right now in a city near you. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at nsl.sport.
10:25 Speaker 04 First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?
10:28 Tracy V. Wilson? Hey, everybody. It's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.
10:49 Speaker 04 It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.
10:56 Tracy V. Wilson? That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.
11:03 Speaker 05 Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.
11:09 Tracy V. Wilson? And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.
11:12 Speaker 05 To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.
11:17 Speaker 04 What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.
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12:34 Speaker 07 Live Right, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, "The Gales of November," a chronicle of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. "Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book," writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Seitz proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. "The Gales of November," now in paperback.
13:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Something else that I definitely didn't understand until researching this episode is that I was like, "Okay, something about corn was making people develop pellagra." I'm imagining that everybody's just like chomping down on ears of corn on the cob. Like, I didn't really have a sense that, no, the corn was being dried. It was being milled into cornmeal or grits or whatever. As I understand it historically, prior to colonization, it was a lot more common to, in most of the Americas, for the corn to be nish-timalized so that it would have this longer shelf life and not so much to roast up an ear of corn and eat it.
13:52 Holly Frey? Right, but you could pop it.
13:54 Tracy V. Wilson? Popping it, too. We do have that whole episode on popcorn. I do love popcorn. Before we started recording, Holly and I started talking about all the types of corn that we love to eat.
14:06 Holly Frey? Yes, and don't.
14:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
14:09 Holly Frey? And don't.
14:10 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
14:11 Holly Frey? I'm not like the, as we said then, I'm not the biggest fan of just like corn. Although I'm coming around, something is happening to my taste buds where like now I'm like, a roasted corn I'm okay with, but for the longest time, I just did not want whole corn.
14:28 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
14:28 Holly Frey? I do not want creamed corn by any stretch of the imagination. I can't imagine a food that grosses me out much more than that.
14:35 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
14:37 Holly Frey? But I love popcorn and I love things made with ground corn with cornmeal.
14:41 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, sure.
14:42 Holly Frey? Oh, the flavor. Oh goodness, a good matzo.
14:45 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, I love corn on the cob. I love corn grits, which again, most of the like, the very mainstream North America food companies that are selling like instant grits, it might have the word hominy on the label, but that's probably not niestimalized corn being used. Some of the more specialty producers will specifically say on, on the labeling that it is corn that has been treated in some way with like an alkaline processing. But yeah, love corn on the cob, love grits.
15:21 Tracy V. Wilson? Love like catfish breaded in cornmeal. So good. There are a lot of like Mexican, Mesoamerican sort of street food dishes that involve corn and various cheese like elotes and esquites. I think that's how those are pronounced. I did not look it up before coming in here. I'm sorry. But I love both of those. All and various things that have corn as an ingredient in there. Very into it. And again, if you're eating a ton of corn that hasn't been niestimalized, as long as you're also eating a variety of other foods.
15:59 Holly Frey? Probably fine.
16:00 Tracy V. Wilson? Probably fine.
16:01 Holly Frey? Yeah. I was just gonna say, you know, living in the South, there are strong opinions about grits. But there's only one grit for me and it is the Flying Biscuit Creamy Dreamy Grit.
16:14 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, so good.
16:15 Holly Frey? Holy Moses.
16:17 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
16:18 Holly Frey? If you are in the South and you are near a Flying Biscuit.
16:21 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
16:22 Holly Frey? And you've never had them.
16:23 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
16:24 Holly Frey? Get thee to Flying Biscuit or the Creamy Dreamy Grits. They're so good.
16:29 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
16:30 Holly Frey? Oh, man.
16:30 Tracy V. Wilson? I also like shrimp and grits.
16:33 Holly Frey? Oh, my favorite.
16:34 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Moving to Massachusetts.
16:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Meant less availability of grits. I feel like that's a slightly shifted now. Um, but I remember one time, this was shortly after I had moved to Massachusetts. We stopped for some reason, like we were just out and about doing stuff. And for some reason, we stopped at a very large, but very standard chain grocery store in Massachusetts in Brookline. And they had a whole wall of different varieties of grits in with the oatmeal and all that. And I was, my mind was absolutely blown because I had not seen grits in a store in a super long time.
17:24 Tracy V. Wilson? And even now, it's like the place that I usually grocery shop has at most one kind of instant grit. And that's your option.
17:33 Holly Frey? Tracy, if only you knew someone who still lived in the South and could ship you grits.
17:37 Tracy V. Wilson? Could ship me grits as much as I want.
17:39 Holly Frey? Why don't you just send me your list? And we'll get it handled.
17:44 Tracy V. Wilson? During the early COVID time, uh, when many of us were mostly at home, uh, we were getting things in bulk through mail order from a place that is sadly no longer in business. Um, and one time, not one time, like they started having like these giant boxes of grits. And I was like, give me the grits all the time. Grits, comfort food in these days of uncertainty. Um, having returned to days of uncertainty.
18:16 Holly Frey? Right?
18:17 Tracy V. Wilson? What I've actually been doing recently is cream of wheat, which is not.
18:21 Holly Frey? It's as good as you remember.
18:24 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
18:24 Holly Frey? That was the ad campaign when we were kids.
18:27 Tracy V. Wilson? For cream of wheat?
18:28 Holly Frey? Yeah.
18:29 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. I don't remember this.
18:31 Holly Frey? I'm telling you, I know all the commercials.
18:36 Holly Frey? I was a child raised by television and I love advertising jingles to this day.
18:43 Tracy V. Wilson? There is a place in, I think this is in Somerville. I don't live there. I don't live in Somerville anymore. So I don't remember if this was in Somerville or if it was like over the line in Cambridge called The Neighborhood that had a cream of wheat. And we would get it sometimes when a bunch of friends, we were gonna go somewhere and we would stop and get some to go and we would eat it walking down the sidewalk. And I've started trying to mock up their cream of wheat in my own house in breakfast recently.
19:12 Tracy V. Wilson? It's got some similarities to grits, but it's not quite the same thing.
19:19 Tracy V. Wilson? Anyway.
19:20 Holly Frey? Delicious yummy foods. Now I think I have to make shrimp and grits for lunch. Thanks Tracy.
19:25 Tracy V. Wilson? I'm very excited for you.
19:27 Holly Frey? Shrimp and grits is one of my all time, easily in the top 10 favorite dishes.
19:32 Tracy V. Wilson? Yes.
19:33 Holly Frey? And I love, I love trying everywhere's version.
19:38 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
19:40 Holly Frey? It's the best.
19:41 Tracy V. Wilson? We have grits in the house right now. We don't have any shrimp. So sadly, no shrimp and grits for me.
19:48 Tracy V. Wilson? So yeah.
19:49 Holly Frey? I like to do grits with a little scallion in the pan first.
19:54 Tracy V. Wilson? Fun.
19:54 Holly Frey? Let that get brown and even a little crispy.
19:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
19:58 Holly Frey? Then you do your, your grit situation.
20:01 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
20:02 Holly Frey? And then there's just scallion spread throughout them. Making deliciousness.
20:07 Tracy V. Wilson? That sounds really good.
20:08 Holly Frey? It is.
20:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Really good.
20:15 Holly Frey? I love it. I love it.
20:17 Tracy V. Wilson? I do find more shrimp and grits on restaurant menus.
20:22 Holly Frey? Yeah.
20:23 Tracy V. Wilson? Here.
20:25 Holly Frey? Always my, I get so excited when we're going somewhere that has shrimp and grits.
20:28 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm hmm.
20:29 Holly Frey? I remember mentioning in an unrelated conversation, which was actually about Star Wars, when I was at a convention in Salt Lake.
20:39 Holly Frey? That I, any restaurant I go to that has shrimp and grits on the menu, especially if I'm somewhere I don't go, I almost order. Always that's the thing I order. And I was surprised at how many people in the audience of that panel were like. I'm sorry, shrimp and what are you eating? Like, they just thought this sounded like the most gruesome dish one could put before a human, and I'm like, come to the shrimp and grit side, it's really quite delicious.
21:14 Speaker 01 That sound? That's pro squash. Some of the fastest rallies in sport played inches from the crowd. The National Squash League is back in full swing for season four. The sport is heading to the 2028 Olympics for the first time, and you can see it up close right now in a city near you. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at NSL.Sport.
21:44 Speaker 07 Livright, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S. S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book, writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sides proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.
22:12 Tracy V. Wilson? Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jess A. have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane, navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So, listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy
22:57 Tracy V. Wilson? only gets better with age on the podcast that never gets old. Listen to Silver Linings, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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24:28 Tracy V. Wilson? While there was, you know, a southern pride around these foods and the roles that things like fatback and salt pork plating cooking and all of that, there was also stigma about some of the foods. And hominids association with poor people made like other people who could afford a richer variety of food like not really want to deal with that. Yeah. Makes total sense that the Department of Home Economics was like, yes, this is how you can do this yourself at home. Because part of their whole deal was trying to give people who were facing hardship.
25:07 Tracy V. Wilson? Tools to have like more nutritious foods at home. I had its own baggage that we talked about in those episodes because like we said, they did not get behind foods that they thought were weird or un-American in some way.
25:22 Holly Frey? Right.
25:23 Tracy V. Wilson? For the most part.
25:25 Tracy V. Wilson? But yeah.
25:26 Holly Frey? Yeah, I hate that defensiveness about, you know, regional identity and pride probably costs some people their lives.
25:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Yeah, well, and then it became a situation of the people who had really criticized that it could be dietarily related and it became increasingly evident that yes, this was related to diet, continuing to double down because then it sort of seemed like they were going to come off as having been backward and stubborn.
25:59 Holly Frey? So just be more so, that'll fix it.
26:02 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, we've seen it everywhere in our lives, the people who were wrong and can't admit that they were wrong about something.
26:11 Holly Frey? Right.
26:12 Tracy V. Wilson? So anyway.
26:14 Holly Frey? Eat a variety of foods if you are able.
26:17 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, yeah. And you know, if you are able, donate to your local food bank.
26:24 Holly Frey? Yes.
26:25 Tracy V. Wilson? We, there is a lot of need right now for food at the food banks.
26:30 Holly Frey? There is, this is where I will talk about briefly, the made up Star Wars holiday that I do.
26:36 Tracy V. Wilson? Okay.
26:37 Holly Frey? It's just that every year on Mardi Gras, we have started going instead to Walt Disney World and we go to Galaxy's Edge and we celebrate what we call Hut Tongs Day.
26:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Okay.
26:49 Holly Frey? Essentially Mardi Gras, but it is in Star Wars. And part of that, that I always tell friends, because they're like, can we run around the parks with you? I'm like, yes, absolutely. We've gotten quite a nice herd together. But the thing that we always do is like, I'm not going to police you, but please as part of this, donate to an organization that feeds people. Because the whole point of like, having a very yummy time running around and playing should be that like. May we all have plenty is my, my governing thing. So that's just our goofy way that we do it among our like friend group, which, you know, expands delightfully each year.
27:30 Holly Frey? It makes it a fun thing out of reminding everyone to take care of each other by donating to food organizations. But everybody, celebrate Hot Tongue's Day with me this year in whatever way you want to. If you're not into Star Wars, you can just donate to a food org on Mardi Gras or anytime.
27:46 Tracy V. Wilson? I have a food bank. And also, we have a local food rescue organization that goes and gets the stuff that's going to be thrown out from the restaurants and grocery stores and they redistribute that. And then also Meals on Wheels.
28:02 Holly Frey? Yeah.
28:03 Tracy V. Wilson? Who's federal funding, I think, was frozen.
28:07 Holly Frey? I think so, yes.
28:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. And I, I don't know what the situation is with that at this point, and I'm sure it will be different by the time this episode comes out because everything-
28:15 Holly Frey? From the time we're speaking about it today till when you hear us speaking about it, who knows what will have happened?
28:22 Tracy V. Wilson? So we've alluded to the chaos of the times that we're living in. I really hope that everyone is able to find some moments of joy and peace.
28:35 Tracy V. Wilson? Because there's moments of joy and peace can make the other stuff that we've got to deal with more deal with-able.
28:43 Holly Frey? Yes.
28:45 Tracy V. Wilson? And we will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday.
28:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
29:14 Speaker 01 That sound? That's the National Squash League. Pro teams, the world's best players, and rallies so fast you'll forget to breathe. Season four is in full swing, and every match streams free on YouTube. Big hits, bigger rivalries, and a front row seat from wherever you are. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at NSL.Sport.
29:42 Holly Frey? A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
30:13 Tracy V. Wilson? You ever show up late to the game and your friends already saved your seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T: Connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.
30:49 Speaker 07 Live Right, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book, writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sides proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.
31:16 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
Previous Pellagra, Part 2 Next SYMHC Classics: Lost Cause of the Confederacy Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated