Pod Insights Stuff You Missed in History Class Behind the Scenes Minis: Questionable Jokes and Turkey About this episode Holly notes the racist views of one of Charles Brown's biographers. Tracy and Holly also discuss presidential proclamations and the ways Thanksgiving has been framed as a feel-good story over the years.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
0:04 Tracy V. Wilson? You ever show up late to the game and your friends already saved your seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details. Deanna Flores is a flag football star, a trailblazer, an entrepreneur, and now host of a new podcast. In Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every
0:47 Tracy V. Wilson? corner of culture to find the whole person behind the public identity. Every episode, you'll get to know Deanna, her guests, and even yourself a little better. No lectures, no know-it-all host, just real people being real. Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores, out now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with Geico. The Old Gays are back with Silver Linings, their lovable podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Robert, Mick, Bill, and Jessa strut back down memory lane for season two, sharing lessons on life, love, and loss. These are the kind of insights that only come from experience.
1:28 Tracy V. Wilson? So tune in to Silver Linings with The Old Gays on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Workplace chaos, we've all been there. Deadlines are slipping, projects are piling up, and suddenly you realize the missing piece is the right person. That's when you say, this is a job for sponsored jobs. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your job post gets a boost so you can connect with quality candidates faster. In fact, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Spend less time searching and more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
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2:46 Holly Frey? Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.
2:56 Holly Frey? Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.
2:59 Tracy V. Wilson? And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
3:01 Holly Frey? We talked about Charles Brown slash Artemis Ward this week.
3:04 Tracy V. Wilson? Yep.
3:05 Holly Frey? I also said that I would talk about Don C. Seitz this week.
3:08 Tracy V. Wilson? You did say that.
3:10 Holly Frey? It was his biographer. He wrote a biography of Ward in the, I think it was 1919. I just want to warn anybody, because it's an interesting biography, but if you go to read it, the introduction has a lot of gross racist stuff in it.
3:28 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
3:29 Holly Frey? Which was definitely like part of the time, but this writer's gross racist stuff is worse than Ward's gross racist stuff.
3:38 Tracy V. Wilson? Huh.
3:39 Holly Frey? Like, it's really like, I don't even want to tell the stories involved because they're so yucky.
3:45 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
3:46 Holly Frey? But like, it's one of those things where there's an instance where Charles Ward does something to kind of like, show how stupid this black man he's talking to is. And then Seitz makes a comment on the whole thing that is very, very gross. So just if you want to go read some of this stuff, please know it is laced throughout with things like that and it's not cool. It is worth reading for the understanding of the situation. But obviously with the lens on it that you know, it is gross and it sometimes, I mean, I felt it was stomach journey. It was like, oh, even for the time, you are really just
4:30 Holly Frey? no. So brace.
4:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Reading about some of his humor.
4:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Reminded me a little bit of the era of comedy that you and I lived through, but like our younger listeners may not personally remember.
4:50 Holly Frey? Right.
4:51 Tracy V. Wilson? Where there was kind of a vibe of it being okay to be offensive as long as you were being offensive to everyone.
5:01 Holly Frey? Right.
5:03 Tracy V. Wilson? And having like a weird edginess to all of the humor that was kind of like would include a lot of really racist and sexist jokes, but with such a broad spectrum of them that it was like, well, it's not that they're racist or sexist, it's that they are making fun of everyone.
5:26 Holly Frey? Right.
5:27 Tracy V. Wilson? I'm kind of glad that, not even kind of, I've generally, I'm generally glad that for the most part, at least the comedy I'm aware of, has moved beyond that.
5:37 Holly Frey? I mean, it still happens.
5:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Sure.
5:39 Holly Frey? It's that thing where, you know, I mean, I, I understand how somebody lands there and thinks that's okay, because I, I am definitely like, I don't, I don't take anything too seriously myself, least of all.
5:53 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
5:54 Holly Frey? But the problem is, even if you're making fun of everybody, some of those people are going to be a punch down and you are going to reinforce gross stuff.
6:03 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
6:04 Holly Frey? That hurts those people, whereas if you're punching up at people who have way more power and privilege than you with your jokes, they are going to be unharmed.
6:13 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
6:13 Holly Frey? And that is why it is not okay to use the I mess with everybody like approach.
6:18 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
6:19 Holly Frey? There are still people learning that lesson or not learning it, as the case may be. But that's, yeah. Artemis Ward.
6:27 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
6:28 Holly Frey? Yuck. Now, there's also the part of me, right? That is like, is this like a, a reverse Uno that I'm just not fully grasping? Was he doing some of these things as this character who was obviously kind of a train wreck to point out that they were gross?
6:47 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, yeah.
6:48 Holly Frey? I don't know.
6:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
6:50 Holly Frey? Um, it's a little bit weird because everyone who knew him writes about how kind and gentle he was with everyone he encountered.
6:59 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
6:59 Holly Frey? But those are also people who also say gross racist things and may not recognize that he wasn't being kind and gentle.
7:06 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
7:07 Holly Frey? So it's a little bit tricky.
7:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. I, um, I don't really ever post on any social media anymore, except for very occasionally Instagram. Uh, but one of the things that I got really tired of was the people who would say the thing, quote ironically, but like really you're just saying the same thing.
7:31 Holly Frey? Yeah.
7:32 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh, and so I kind of wonder if, if some of his humor fell into that.
7:39 Holly Frey? Yeah.
7:39 Tracy V. Wilson? I'm being ironic, but really you're still just, you're saying the same thing.
7:45 Holly Frey? Right. That is, that is the trick of ironic humor. You cannot, you, you can't always count on your audience to get the joke.
7:53 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
7:54 Holly Frey? It's, uh, not amazing.
7:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
7:57 Holly Frey? Um, yeah, yeah. He's an interesting one. I like this idea that you can pinpoint a moment where kind of stand-up comedy happened for the first time. I find it hilarious that there's an elementary school named after him. I'm like, but is that, is that good?
8:15 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, it's a weird, a weird name choice, in my opinion, at this time.
8:21 Tracy V. Wilson? I, so, uh, there was an era, I mean, I'm sure this still happens at some points, but like, uh, there, there was kind of an era in writing when it was way more common to render thickly all the way through the writing, someone's accent and dialect.
8:40 Holly Frey? Yeah.
8:41 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, like Bram Stoker did this also, uh, in a lot of his work. Um, I find it so exhausting to read works that are written like that. And somehow by coincidence, I wound up with the two longest passages of his writing.
8:57 Holly Frey? I swear I did not do that on purpose.
9:01 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, yeah, I find it, uh, as someone who loves to read and has always been a really good reader, um, I find it tiring to, to try to get through it.
9:13 Holly Frey? It's tricky.
9:14 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh, differently than when I am reading, you know, historical documents that have non-standard today spellings.
9:22 Holly Frey? Right.
9:23 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, or things that were printed at a time when they, the long S's that looks like Fs were in use. Like, that's a little bit different way of brain power needing to be put toward it than, than the invented spellings and phonetic renderings of things that are part of this.
9:42 Holly Frey? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Charles Brown.
9:46 Tracy V. Wilson? Yep.
9:47 Holly Frey? Which makes me go, are you the, is Charlie Brown named for you?
9:51 Tracy V. Wilson? I didn't look it up.
9:52 Holly Frey? I don't know. I don't know. Um, it is funny. Uh, the one thing that I find kind of hilarious is how he was kind of like the predecessor by minutes to Mark Twain.
10:04 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm-hmm.
10:05 Holly Frey? They definitely had similar style. So I don't know if that's just because they were dressing in the manner of the day, or if it's because Twain kind of modeled himself on Artemis Ward, Charles Brown. I don't know.
10:20 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
10:22 Holly Frey? But it's interesting.
10:23 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
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14:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jesay have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So, listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends,
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15:44 Tracy V. Wilson? One of our episodes this week was about Thanksgiving.
15:47 Holly Frey? Ooh, yes, it was.
15:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Thanksgiving a week earlier.
15:54 Holly Frey? I have so, I have so many thoughts on this one.
15:56 Tracy V. Wilson? I have a lot of thoughts, too.
16:00 Tracy V. Wilson? As I was doing research on this, I had a bunch of things bookmarked. And I, I think I've said before, like, I'll just, I'll bookmark broadly, and then I will go back to go through stuff. And one of the things I had bookmarked is like a local news article that was kind of generally about this. But this article stated with lots of authority that Thanksgiving is always the last Thursday in November. And I was like, nah, that is not correct.
16:34 Tracy V. Wilson? Something I wanted to put in the episode, and I just didn't feel like had a good place in the rhythm of how things were going, is that in Oklahoma...
16:45 Tracy V. Wilson? There was some debate about which day the banks would be closed. The state was observing Thanksgiving on the 30th, but the bank holiday had already been established as the 23rd. And Attorney General Mac Williamson issued a legal opinion in this matter that had a little poem in it. And the poem went, 30 days hath September, April, June, and November. All the rest have 31 until we hear from Washington.
17:22 Tracy V. Wilson? What are some of your thoughts, Holly?
17:24 Holly Frey? Um, while we were recording, I just scribbled on my notepad that I keep by my computer.
17:34 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm hmm.
17:34 Holly Frey? Sweet baby Greedo Thanksgiving.
17:38 Holly Frey? Get your act together. Here's my thing.
17:40 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
17:41 Holly Frey? Two things. One, how much legislative time was wasted on like making the president proclaim it every time? Just a lot, right? Like, well, just set it and forget it. But, um, it's my thing. But two, what it really, really reminded me of as like it was getting into the nitty gritty of we're gonna change it.
18:07 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh huh.
18:07 Holly Frey? To give more space. Everybody's freaking out, but we already printed the things and we're already, and we already had the thing and we're do, we're doing it this way. We've always done it this way. Why do we want to change? It reminded me of anybody that's worked in like a corporate setting or even a not corporate setting.
18:25 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm hmm.
18:26 Holly Frey? Has had this moment where like there's some process or even lack of process that has been the standard mode of doing things that has problems.
18:36 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm hmm.
18:37 Holly Frey? But even when somebody presents a solution that will require a little transition awkwardness, people are so mad about that part that they can't.
18:46 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, yeah.
18:47 Holly Frey? Get past it and they fight, fight. I mean, I've been on both sides of that equation where like, no. And also, come on, you guys, this is never gonna get better if we don't have this two weeks that stink.
18:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
18:58 Holly Frey? And that's what it made me think of, like, just if everybody could just chill out for like a minute.
19:03 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
19:04 Holly Frey? We can make this decision. We know it's gonna be awkward. I'm a big fan of the let's just celebrate it twice if you love the other one so much while we figure this out.
19:14 Holly Frey? But I did, it made me think about that a lot.
19:18 Tracy V. Wilson? I was not really as focused on like the time spent doing the proclamations because presidents and governors issue a lot of proclamations about a lot of stuff. And so like that did not, I didn't even really think about that as a factor in all of it. The amount of debating that could go into the passage of laws and like whether to ask the president to issue a proclamation. That did crack me up a little bit. Also, just, I mean, I said it in the episode. It, it was really not necessary to manufacture a connection to this, like the, the, you know, sort of mythical first Thanksgiving.
20:00 Holly Frey? Right.
20:01 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, because the Thanksgiving holiday has always been about, like the identity of the United States as a nation, you know, since there started to be national proclamations about it, uh, and a very, very often connections, uh, to, to wars, wars that the, you know, the nation and the, you know, the legislative branch and the executive branch believed were being undertaken for just reasons.
20:33 Holly Frey? Right.
20:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, and the idea that like, uh, providence was smiling on our war effort because our war effort is good. Like that underpinned so much of it, uh, which that's a whole other can of worms, but like we, uh, it's probably a little harder for a kindergartner to wrap their head around than a, a feel-good story about sitting down to a big dinner. But, um, like those connections, there was plenty of other, uh, fuel for, uh, elementary school classes and whatever, um, that did not involve having children.
21:16 Tracy V. Wilson? Make paper headdresses and wear them, for example.
21:18 Holly Frey? Yeah.
21:19 Tracy V. Wilson? I know there are still schools that are doing that.
21:22 Holly Frey? Yeah.
21:24 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, so, yeah.
21:25 Holly Frey? Yeah.
21:29 Tracy V. Wilson? I forgot, what is the thing that somebody coined that was about things will inevitably be compared to Hitler? There's some term that somebody coined for that.
21:37 Holly Frey? Oh, I don't know.
21:37 Tracy V. Wilson? On the internet, some law, somebody, uh, I'm just gonna Google it. This is, uh, Godwin's Law, which is, as online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. That, of course, uh, was not coined until, apparently, 1990, according to this, uh, Google search that I've just done.
22:07 Tracy V. Wilson? So many decades after Frank's giving discussion, but, uh, yeah. Not a new phenomenon.
22:15 Holly Frey? No, not in the least.
22:17 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, anyway, I, uh...
22:21 Holly Frey? I also marveled throughout, even though I have read some of these documents we referenced, at just how, how much the idea of a separation of church and state was such a fib.
22:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
22:34 Holly Frey? Just such a fib.
22:35 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh, yeah, one of the things that I read about Washington's proclamation specifically was that, like, Washington's proclamations definitely draw on the idea of God and prayer, but without specifying any particular religion or denomination or sect within a religion, but still with the presumption that everyone has like a, a commonality to their religious belief that involves God and prayer.
23:11 Holly Frey? Right.
23:11 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, but, yeah, the, the idea that the, like, that the first presidents or the so-called founders were not really focused on God, uh, does not hold up in this episode.
23:26 Holly Frey? Yeah.
23:28 Tracy V. Wilson? Um, anyway, I hope if folks are preparing for their own Thanksgiving meal...
23:36 Tracy V. Wilson? I hope those preparations are going well. I know can stuff can start really early with making sure you can find the right potatoes for your potato casserole.
23:47 Tracy V. Wilson? Or whether they're going to be sold out of cranberries at the grocery store.
23:52 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh, so you know, whatever's whatever you're working on with that in mind, I hope it's all going really well. And if you are having a Thanksgiving holiday in a couple of weeks or a week, I guess, uh, no, I hope that's going to be great, as great as possible. If you want to send us a note about this or any other podcast or history podcast at iHeartRadio.com and you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else you'd like to get your podcasts.
24:25 Tracy V. Wilson? Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
24:41 Tracy V. Wilson? Deanna Flores is a flag football star, a trailblazer, an entrepreneur, and now host of a new podcast.
24:47 Holly Frey? In Born to Become with Deanna Flores, she's sitting down with people from every corner of culture to find the whole person behind the public identity.
24:55 Tracy V. Wilson? Every episode, you'll get to know Deanna, her guests, and even yourself a little better. No lectures, no know-it-all host, just real people being real.
25:03 Holly Frey? Listen to Born to Become with Deanna Flores, out now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Created in partnership with Geico.
25:12 Tracy V. Wilson? You ever show up late to the game and your friends already saved your seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.
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27:16 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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