Behind the Scenes Minis: Progressive Medicine

Holly talks about the lack information about Pinel’s family, and how much she’d like to see Oscar Wilde use social media. Tracy discusses the way the Cooley episode narrowed down the scope of her originally planned topic. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 1:17Holly Frey?

  We've all tumbled down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose, and it leaves us more anxious than informed. Our feeds are full of wellness trends, but how do we know what's real, what's exaggerated, and what's just wrong? Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends, not to cancel them, but to understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. So listen to Health vs. Hype wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  The Old Gays are back with Silver Linings, their lovable podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with Vive Healthcare. Robert, Mick, Bill, and Jessa strut back down memory lane for season two, sharing lessons on life, love, and loss. These are the kind of insights that only come from experience. So tune into Silver Linings with The Old Gays on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:16Speaker 05

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• 2:45Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 3:23Speaker 06

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• 3:38Speaker 07

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic

• 4:23Speaker 07

  reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 4:46Speaker 06

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 4:54Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 5:05Holly Frey?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.

• 5:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm Tracy B. Wilson.

• 5:09Holly Frey?

  And we talked about Philip Pinnell this week.

• 5:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, not a name I had heard of, I don't think.

• 5:13Holly Frey?

  I am, I am very intrigued by his whole story. I mean, I like medical history in general. I like psychiatry and psychology history a lot, as you may have guessed from things I have selected in the past. And I find his story especially intriguing because it does represent somebody who is so forward-thinking in the field, but is also kind of tripping over their own feet in some ways.

• 5:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Kind of, yeah. Forward-thinking in some ways, unlimited in other, other ways.

• 5:42Holly Frey?

  Yeah. One thing that we did not talk about until we got to the point where we mentioned that he had a son, who also became a psychiatrist, was his family. Because I did not find a lot of information about when he got married, who he married. I know he had a son, and I've seen a painting of him with what appeared to be a son and daughter, but there's no information regarding his daughter or

• 6:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Holly Frey?

  his wife. So apologies, if you are a scholar of Pinnell and you know, let me know.

• 6:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  We similarly did not mention Asher Bonapal's wife or children, other than the two sons. I just didn't find a ton of, it's, it can be, no family information time.

• 6:25Holly Frey?

  Yeah, sometimes, sometimes those people get documented, and sometimes they don't. I mentioned when we were talking about the quote that we read about him saying, like, some people will tell you that brain lesions are the cause of, of mental issues, but I'm telling you, no. And he's obviously super wrong. We know that that can be the case. I really feel like, at that point, he had started to believe that he could potentially cure anyone. And so to admit, and again, this is my theory, no basis in anything I read. But I think to admit that, like, oh, no, it's something physical that can't actually be helped, would have messed up his whole sense of purpose in what he was doing.

• 7:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 7:12Holly Frey?

  That's just my guess. But based on the way he writes about people and treatments that he did, I really feel like that's probably the heart of why he was so dismissive of the physical science of it. He also did an interesting thing, and is, to the best of my knowledge, the first person to ever approach it this way. One of the things we didn't talk about a lot were all the ways he classified his mental alienation groups. But one thing that he wrote a good bit about was the difference between people who are always in a state of mental alienation versus people who have episodes, and other times

• 7:54Holly Frey?

  they are in their normal, for lack of better phrasing, right mind, right? And he started developing this way of treating them and working with those patients where, when they were not in an episode, he would discuss their case with them very transparently and be like, how do you think we, you and I together, can address this person you become when that crops up? And how can we help this move your, your treatment forward? Which is just an interesting idea. Again, he needed more science backing up all his stuff.

• 8:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Holly Frey?

  But I am sort of, I don't know, if impressed is not the word, but it is quite striking the way that he always saw his patients as from a very human lens and never was like, in the parlance that was often used, they're at this point animals, I can't deal with them.

• 8:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 8:46Holly Frey?

  He always knew that there was somebody in there that he just needed to get to, which I really appreciate and find the most hopeful about his writing and his work. Yeah, he's just an interesting guy.

• 8:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:58Holly Frey?

  Interesting dude. I love that he was like, are we not doing baths? This is the easiest.

• 9:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 9:04Holly Frey?

  Hey, look, people aren't dying of stupid things anymore because they're clean.

• 9:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. A lot of that, maybe not to the extent of literally not having a bath for the patients. But like, a lot of that is, these are still have things that are issues in institutions today.

• 9:20Holly Frey?

  For sure.

• 9:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like, my mom's career for a long time was long-term care for disabled children, and they were all children who had multiple, complex disabilities.

• 9:32Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 9:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Extremely high support needs. And my mom one time did like a training video for the staff that was basically about things like, yes, we don't know if this child is self-aware. They still deserve privacy.

• 9:51Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 9:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like, when going to the bathroom, that kind of stuff. Like reinforcing the, like, these are, we're, these are all, these children are all people, and they all have the same right to dignity and respect.

• 10:03Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Even when we are not sure whether we are able to communicate with them or them with us.

• 10:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  So, yeah.

• 10:11Holly Frey?

  Yeah, it is, it's really interesting in that, like, both of those are just, you know, both like, the work your mom was doing, the stuff Pinnell was doing, it's all really rooted in just kindness and respect. Which it's kind of funny when you kind of break it down to that level of simplicity to be like, and that was very forward-thinking.

• 10:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 10:32Holly Frey?

  It's very disheartening. I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing because it sounds so absurd.

• 10:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Holly Frey?

  But has been a problem with humans for a long time.

• 10:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Holly Frey?

  Reading papers about him, because there is a lot of scholarship about him. I feel like he's one of the go-tos that people do when they're doing like a PhD or something, because I found so many papers. There is often a very bifurcated path. Like, people are either like, this guy was great, he's why we're doing a lot of what we do today, or what a train wreck. I can't believe that he just accidentally stumbled on some stuff that moved things forward, but he was doing it all wrong. And of course, then you have the Foucault of it all, which I can't even.

• 11:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Holly Frey?

  I felt like I needed to mention that because it gets brought up in almost everything you read about him, about Pinel, that like Foucault really hated Pinel's ideas. And I'm like, yeah, but did you read that Foucault stuff? Because he just wanted people to be allowed to go untreated and not ever address any problems. And like, to him, imposing treatment on people was taking away personal choice, which I could see in certain instances, but

• 11:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 11:40Holly Frey?

  if someone is dangerous, that's not really an option. It's in, Michel Foucault, you had a lot of feelings and thoughts.

• 11:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think Foucault might like some of the, like TikTok influencers who...

• 11:55Holly Frey?

  I think we just wrote a play.

• 11:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Holly Frey?

  I would watch this play, Michel Foucault dealing with the, the age of social media and influencers.

• 12:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 12:07Holly Frey?

  I feel like there's something there. I've always wondered, like, if someone would do a thing that's like, if Oscar Wilde had TikTok.

• 12:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 12:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Wow.

• 12:17Holly Frey?

  Which I think I would watch non-stop.

• 12:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Holly Frey?

  I'd be like, damn, he's really sassy and opinionated. And I don't agree with everything, but I can't stop looking. Although I do love me some Oscar Wilde.

• 12:32Holly Frey?

  Today's episode is brought to you by YouTube Premium. YouTube Premium takes something you already love, YouTube, and makes it even better. The content, the creators, the feeling of finding exactly what you're into for every mood and moment of your day. Premium transforms that experience into a more supercharged, enhanced way to enjoy YouTube.

• 12:53Speaker 06

  A YouTube Premium subscription gives you access to exclusive YouTube features and benefits, including but not limited to ad-free, uninterrupted videos. It's great for me. Sometimes my daughter comes up and is like, Dad, I want to watch octopuses using camouflage right now. And so it's great to just go straight to the octopus, ad-free. You got ad-free, uninterrupted videos, you got background play, you have offline downloads. That's the good one right there. Download it ahead of time, take it with you on your flight, underground bunker, wherever you're going without Wi-Fi. Also, you've got smart downloads. These work automatically to download videos by your favorite creators.

• 13:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  So even if you forget to download ahead of time, Premium has you covered.

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• 13:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with Veev Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jessa have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy

• 14:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  only gets better with age on the podcast that never gets old. Listen to Silver Linings, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this? Hey, everybody. It's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible. It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page. That includes Field Services Manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 15:18Speaker 06

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 15:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 15:27Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 15:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride. AT&T, connecting fans to what they love. Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 15:41Speaker 05

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• 16:23Speaker 05

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• 16:36Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 17:20Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 17:47Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 18:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Some life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT Blue, you can DIY trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown-up topics, check out new episodes of Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 18:53Speaker 06

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 19:09Speaker 07

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Trisepotide and should not be used with other Trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 19:54Speaker 07

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 20:16Speaker 06

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 20:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  We talked about Coley's toxins, one of the earliest cancer immunotherapies. Some of the sources that I looked at for this and their timelines of cancer immunotherapy started with ancient Egypt.

• 20:47Holly Frey?

  Okay.

• 20:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Under the argument that in ancient Egypt, one of the treatments for cancers involved sometimes cauterizing the site of the cancer, sometimes making some kind of other like attempt at removing the cancer and then dressing this area with bandages and poultices and stuff. And it seemed like the argument was they probably would have gotten an infection from that. And the infection might have then

• 21:20Holly Frey?

  Caused.

• 21:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Prompted the body to also attack the cancer. And I felt like that was a reach.

• 21:27Holly Frey?

  I mean, yeah, I'm sitting here and I'm like, I mean, I see where you could land there, but it does seem like an awfully long walk.

• 21:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  It was a long walk to me. Also, when I started on this, I was just imagining that it would be a historical overview of the history of immunotherapy. And that came about because I am pretty sure, in addition to this experience that I had watching the news at my parents' house and going, cancer immunotherapy, I thought, did not. Mary Robinette Kowal, who was an author and has been a guest on our show, didn't she suggest a history of immunotherapy as a topic one time? Then I went through my notes. It's possible that she suggested that. It's also possible that she suggested a history of IV therapy, because I have it written down each way.

• 22:17Holly Frey?

  Huh.

• 22:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  And whatever that conversation was, it was long enough ago that I no longer have the email or the social media comment or exactly where it came from to

• 22:27Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 22:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Either way, though, was one of the things that kind of combined together to make me think this would be a fun thing to do. Maybe not fun, but like this would be an interesting thing to do for the show. So I started out collecting information for a historical overview of cancer immunotherapy. And as I got into the more modern decades, starting with, say, the 70s and the 80s, every next step in the possible timeline was an entirely new immune system concept to need to understand and explain.

• 23:08Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I just kept, I was just writing all of them down. So and so discovered blah de blah in whatever, in like 1997, and thinking, I'm going to have to go back to this and like, figure out how to explain this thing.

• 23:23Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  That the blah de blah that was discovered. And also, I was dealing with a mild respiratory illness at this time that was not the end of the world, but was making it harder to think and concentrate. And I realized two things simultaneously. One was that I had way too many notes for a one-part episode, and a one-part episode was what was feasible to do.

• 23:52Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  At this moment in our calendar and in our lives. And then number two, there was no possible way I was gonna understand all of these things.

• 24:00Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 24:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  And then also that Coley's toxins seemed like a whole topic all by themselves that I found very interesting and that I found much more able to reasonably explain. So when I went through and then started writing the actual outline from my notes, I had a tiny little overview of what immunotherapy means. I had some other stuff about that that got deleted, got into Coley's story, got to the end of Coley's life, got to why we, we don't really use these as a treatment in the United States anymore. And then I had, I think, four pages of subsequent timeline notes that I just deleted.

• 24:42Holly Frey?

  No, you save those for later.

• 24:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  I did not save them for later. I think I would have saved them for later had I not been ill. And maybe not thinking as clearly as normal. Also, those many years of timeline things that came after the death of Coley are pretty easy to reconstruct, should I at some point decide to revisit the idea of like an overview, historical overview of immunotherapy.

• 25:14Holly Frey?

  I do have a question.

• 25:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Do it.

• 25:17Holly Frey?

  Because you specified in this outline and in what you just said, that they're not used in the US. Are there places where people are using them?

• 25:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  I, yes. It seems like yes. And it seems like the places where they are used are places where maybe the pharmaceutical and medical system is not quite as regulated, or perhaps there is a broader set of exceptions to the general rules.

• 25:50Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 25:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  For people who have things that seem to be not responding to other treatments.

• 25:55Holly Frey?

  Gotcha.

• 25:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  As far as I know, there's not like a big pseudoscience focus on these toxins as a like

• 26:07Holly Frey?

  Which is surprising to me.

• 26:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. But I also felt like the way it was discussed in some of the more official, like cancer research, cancer awareness bodies, did seem like it was a thing that everyone acknowledged that like people could glom onto this as a pseudoscience.

• 26:26Holly Frey?

  They just needed something to do.

• 26:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  But again, it's like, there are, there are newer, more effective, more specific, more conclusively

• 26:37Holly Frey?

  Dependable.

• 26:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, demonstrated treatments at this point. And even when he was, you know, publishing his work, the fact that he had what appeared to be approximately a 10% cure rate, that's not a huge percentage.

• 26:52Holly Frey?

  No.

• 26:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  But the alternative for a lot of the cancers that he was working with was like, amputate this limb and hope. And that's

• 27:01Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 27:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  That's not, that's not a lot. And there are, for a lot of the cancers that he was working with, other options today.

• 27:09Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm just surprised because it does seem like the kind of thing that some people would get very

• 27:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 27:18Holly Frey?

  obsessed with.

• 27:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Holly Frey?

  Under the claims of a natural cure. Don't do that.

• 27:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  A natural cure of bacterial toxins.

• 27:28Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's one of those things that it's like, it seems like when it, when it did work for people, it, it seemed miraculous and gave people years of life that they probably would not have had otherwise.

• 27:40Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  But also just did not work at all for some people.

• 27:43Speaker 07

  So YouTube Premium, it takes something you already love, that being YouTube, and it makes it even better. Not just the experience, but the content, the creators.

• 27:56Holly Frey?

  The feeling of finding exactly what you're into for every mood, every moment of your day. Premium transforms that experience into a more supercharged, enhanced way to enjoy YouTube.

• 28:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, folks, a YouTube Premium experience gives you access to exclusive YouTube features and benefits, and these are real game changers for us.

• 28:16Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah, that includes, but it's not limited to, ad-free viewing of YouTube. Imagine no more ads popping up in the middle of videos or at the end of videos, uninterrupted videos.

• 28:26Speaker 07

  And now think about this, let's say you're using YouTube on the go, you're exercising, you're washing dishes, you can have YouTube playing in the background with Premium, which means you can keep listening while your screen is locked.

• 28:40Holly Frey?

  Also, you can download videos offline, so you don't even need Wi-Fi connection to watch your stuff.

• 28:46Speaker 07

  I love this on plane flights.

• 28:48Holly Frey?

  Ben, how have you been using YouTube Premium?

• 28:50Speaker 07

  Oh, man. Well, Matt, you know, I like to take a night walk and YouTube Premium is perfect for this because of the background play, so I can pull up a documentary about the neighborhood I'm walking around in, put the phone in my pocket and still hear everything perfectly.

• 29:06Holly Frey?

  Amazing.

• 29:07Speaker 07

  So don't delay, sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 29:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jessa have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane, navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you.

• 29:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy only gets better with age on the podcast that never gets old. Listen to Silver Linings, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay, Chicken Nugget fans, I've got huge news. The new

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Burger King Chicken Nuggets just dropped and they are the crispiest, the juiciest, and the tastiest chicken nuggets ever at Burger King. Burger King heard that a lot of you didn't like the old chicken nuggets, so they got to work and reinvented them. To go along with the new chicken nuggets, a lot of the sauces were reinvented too, because better chicken nuggets deserve better sauces. We're talking new buffalo sauce, honey mustard, sweet and sour, and even a whole new option too, the new special savory sauce, which is only available for a limited time at participating US restaurants. I mean, you need to taste it all for yourself. This new chicken nugget, reinvented, based on

• 30:56Speaker 02

  real feedback, is made with 100% white meat chicken and is now better than ever. You gotta try the new Burger King Chicken Nuggets and Sauces today.

• 31:07Holly Frey?

  For any small business owner, there's a moment when you realize the next hire could be the difference between staying busy and actually growing. The challenge is finding the right person without wasting time sorting through candidates who aren't the right fit. That's where Indeed Sponsored Jobs comes in. When workplace chaos hits and you need someone who can step in and make a difference, this is a job for Sponsored Jobs. It helps put your job in front of candidates who match the criteria that matter most to you, whether that's skills, experience, certifications, or location. And you're certainly not alone in using Indeed. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. That's millions of businesses turning to Indeed

• 31:49Holly Frey?

  to help solve hiring challenges and find people who can help drive results. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Get your $75 sponsored job credit today at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now, then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 32:17Speaker 06

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 32:33Speaker 07

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and

• 33:15Speaker 07

  call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 33:40Speaker 06

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 33:48Holly Frey?

  We've all done it. Tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends. Not to cancel them, not to hype them

• 34:32Holly Frey?

  more, but to actually understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:51Holly Frey?

  Enjoy easy weeknight recipes using Land O' Lakes cheese and butter that can bring restaurant taste right to your family's home. Now if only there was an easy recipe for washing dishes. Land O' Lakes. Find it in the dairy aisle.

• 35:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  One of the things that makes further study of them more difficult is today, we have this thing called GMP rules, which are good manufacturing practices, and developing things that follow those rules when you are making pharmaceuticals and other substances that can be very expensive and very difficult. And it was already difficult and expensive to make these toxins. And when there are other things that are being developed and being explored that seem more consistently promising in some ways, that does not leave a lot of reason to sink lots and lots of money to something that is going to be so expensive that may or may not work. Couple of side notes. We mentioned that Coley worked

• 35:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  at three different hospitals. He was on staff at all three of them at the same time, not all, not for his whole career, I don't think, which seemed to be a normal thing. He was working with a lot of the same surgeons at multiple different hospitals.

• 36:10Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 36:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it's today, I think, I'm not a surgeon. I don't think I even know any surgeons. I do know some people who work in the medical field.

• 36:17Holly Frey?

  You don't have a secret surgery career? I don't know.

• 36:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  That'd be weird. I think it is common for like surgeons to have privileges at multiple hospitals, to be able to conduct surgeries there. But it seems like he was considered a staff member at multiple hospitals, which I think that might not be quite as common today. If you're a surgeon and you know that not to be true, feel free to explain how your profession works.

• 36:42Holly Frey?

  I feel like we're having an accidental theme in things that we're recording about people stacking their careers.

• 36:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 36:50Holly Frey?

  Multiple jobs at once.

• 36:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  So Coley and Dr. William T. Bull, who Bull had been the, the original doctor of this patient that he had tracked down, they both worked together at the hospital that came to be known as the Hospital for Special Surgery, in addition to their work at New York Hospital where this thing happened, and I think also at the cancer hospital. At the Hospital for Special Surgery, the two of them developed new surgical techniques for treating hernias in children.

• 37:24Holly Frey?

  Very cool.

• 37:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like replacing techniques that, as I understood it, basically didn't work for most kids. They developed a whole new approach to do it that made it possible to treat hernias in children that had previously not been treatable.

• 37:40Holly Frey?

  That's amazing.

• 37:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  So yeah, this was like not a, not a biography of Coley. It was only focused on these, his work with these toxins. But like, he did have other, other things in his surgical career besides that. Counterpoint is not the exact word, but like on a sadder note, it seems like his treatment of Betsy Dashell, when he was trying to figure out what was going on with her, that might have made it worse.

• 38:06Holly Frey?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 38:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  So he was a brand new, like just a few months on the job as like having finished his internship, brand new as a surgeon, operating on his own. He did not have any reason to think that the 17-year-old had bone cancer. So his way of basically looking in her hand to see what was going on, seems like it probably broke some of the tumor into parts that then circulated through her body and seeded tumors elsewhere. Which he didn't have a huge reason to have thought that that would even be an option, because why would a 17-year-old have had bone cancer?

• 38:49Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 38:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I don't think he even knew that at the time, or even suspected it at the time. But other, other people with medical knowledge that have written about him have sort of said like this, that might have made it worse. It kind of reminded me of, I don't know if it's used anymore, but there was a treatment for a uterine fibroids that was basically sending a little drill in there to kind of blast them up.

• 39:15Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 39:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  But what if it actually is a tumor?

• 39:19Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 39:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  That could be malignant. Like that then just...

• 39:25Holly Frey?

  Like are you propagating it?

• 39:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  Propagates cancer cells. Yeah. And then the last thing that I had written on here was just like, there was so much stuff I did not have to learn and figure out how to explain, once I narrowed down this topic, which I think trying to learn and explain all of them would have been a really tall order, even if I had not been somewhat unwell the whole time I was working on it.

• 39:49Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Here's the Murphy's Law for me that always happens in that scenario.

• 39:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Holly Frey?

  When I'm like, this is gonna be a hard one, but I can do it. That's the week that like, everything explodes.

• 40:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 40:02Holly Frey?

  Where it's like, oh, and your refrigerator died. And also, there's a, you know, mangled raccoon on your deck that needs help. And also, these are things I'm making up. These are not things I'm dealing with.

• 40:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 40:13Holly Frey?

  But it's always like, there's like a weird thing where the universe goes, hey, you think you can handle that? Guess what?

• 40:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah. I felt bad enough to take half a day off partway through the,

• 40:23Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 40:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  my illness, which I have not needed to do in a while.

• 40:27Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  I've been very blessedly not sick in a while. So.

• 40:32Holly Frey?

  Hooray.

• 40:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  The fact that I then needed a half day to lie around.

• 40:38Holly Frey?

  Well, let's keep it that way.

• 40:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Knock on wood. Knock on wood. I had just gotten back from some travel and it's pretty sure something that I was, that I picked up in transit. So yeah. Yeah. Do you have anything else that you would like to say about Cully?

• 40:57Holly Frey?

  No, because you said knock on wood and now Amy Stewart is singing in my head.

• 41:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay. Well, whatever is coming up on your weekend, I hope that it goes as well as is possible, even better than expected, better than you think is possible. That's what I hope. I'm thinking back to the days when my days off used to be on Tuesday and Wednesday every week, which in some ways was kind of fun.

• 41:26Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  If you have a Tuesday or Wednesday or other midweek time off, or if you are in a place where you're needing to have overlapping things and not a lot of time off, then I hope you're able to take a little time to, to have a moment for yourself. Do something that's a little refreshing for yourself. Treat yourself or maybe treat somebody else or treat both of you. Everybody gets a little treat. We will be back with a brand new episode on Monday. And of course, we'll have a Saturday classic tomorrow.

• 42:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 42:16Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 42:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on, so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 43:22Speaker 06

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 43:38Speaker 07

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe

• 44:23Speaker 07

  side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 44:45Speaker 06

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Hola a todos. Soy Jamie Lynn Sigler. Cuando me diagnosticaron tenía veintitantos años y todo mi mundo cambió por completo. Pero con el tiempo decidí que no iba a permitir que eso frenara mi vida. Quise tomar las riendas. Y después de hablar con mi médico sobre mis opciones, la elección para mí fue obvia. Boom! Eso es KISSIMTA. Obtenga más información sobre KISSIMTA o fotumamab en kissimta.com.

• 45:22Speaker 07

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• 46:00Speaker 00

  Okay. Laundry stinks. Literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are. Or just use Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. It's made for real-life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry the quote "right way," Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean, it is from the number one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. Number one claim based on total wash loads sold. Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some

• 46:41Speaker 00

  of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.