Pod Insights Stuff You Missed in History Class Behind the Scenes Minis: Dorothy Everywhere About this episode Tracy shares stories of her time in London. There is also a discussion of Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin’s marriage.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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3:39 Holly Frey? Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.
3:50 Tracy V. Wilson? Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
3:52 Holly Frey? And I'm Holly Frey.
3:54 Tracy V. Wilson? This week, we spent the whole week talking about Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin, something that became clear to me very early in the research was going to be two parts. Both because I wanted to spend a little more time talking about her peace activism, her work basically saying we should cooperate internationally as scientists, all of that, which is mentioned in most writing about her, but maybe not a lot of time spent on it. And also, I just loved her.
4:25 Holly Frey? She's great.
4:26 Tracy V. Wilson? I kept finding more reasons to love her the longer I worked on the episode. And it, when I was in England, I sent myself a number of emails that just sat, said as the subject line, some person's name, or some event, or whatever that I had just found reference to.
4:45 Holly Frey? Yeah, I do the same when I travel.
4:47 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, eventually, for some reason, I got tired of doing that. And I started just taking pictures of signs. And then after I got back to my desk, I was just flipping through my camera roll and seeing all the pictures of signs I had taken and, you know, displays and museums and things like that. And that was when I realized, number two, number one, a bunch of stuff was tagged as happening on Dorothy Hodgkin Road. And then number two, that I had multiple things related to Dorothy Hodgkin that I had taken pictures of while I was doing that. I had also taken pictures of, first, the exterior of the Alexander Fleming Laboratory Museum.
5:29 Holly Frey? Yeah.
5:30 Tracy V. Wilson? Which is at the hospital where he was working in London. Holly, have you been there?
5:35 Holly Frey? Um, I have been by there. I have not been in there.
5:38 Tracy V. Wilson? Okay.
5:38 Holly Frey? But I know where you're talking about exactly.
5:40 Tracy V. Wilson? So this trip to England, we arrived in London. Patrick and I spent a few days in London. We met up with some friends in Birmingham, where Patrick was at a convention. And then my friend and I came back to London together. And then Patrick and her husband came back separately together. And my friend and I decided to go have dinner at a barge in Little Venice, which was a wine and cheese barge.
6:09 Holly Frey? Perfect.
6:09 Tracy V. Wilson? Which we were planning to have wine and cheese and then do a second round of food somewhere else. But we filled up on wine and cheese. And so as we were walking out there, we saw the exterior of the building. There's a, like, you know, a marker. It's clear this is the building.
6:24 Holly Frey? Yeah.
6:24 Tracy V. Wilson? Where Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin. We came back by a different route that took us on the other side of the building and realized that there was a museum there that I didn't know existed, that was the Alexander Fleming Laboratory Museum. And this was maybe a two-minute walk from the hotel where Patrick and I were staying. And so the next morning, it was one of those days where you're just, all you're doing is flying back home.
6:51 Holly Frey? Right.
6:52 Tracy V. Wilson? But the flight home doesn't leave until the afternoon. So you have a little bit of time.
6:56 Holly Frey? Yeah.
6:56 Tracy V. Wilson? In the morning. It's time to do something. But not time to do much. And I said, why don't we walk over to the Alexander Fleming Laboratory Museum? Because it's two minutes away. It opens at 10:00. We need to be checked out of the room by 11:00. It was the perfect amount of time to go. It is a very small museum. It is his laboratory that has been reconstructed to look like it looked when he was working there. And then a room where a brief film is shown and then a display about, like, the development of penicillin and the history of penicillin. And it turned out to just be the really perfect way to close out the trip, have a brief thing to do before heading off to the airport.
7:40 Tracy V. Wilson? And then another thing that brought up the name of Dorothy Crawford Hodgkin.
7:46 Tracy V. Wilson? In all of this. One of the things, there were several things that jumped out to me. One is that we, something that we referred to when we were talking, which is her doing chemistry experiments in the house.
7:59 Holly Frey? Yeah.
8:00 Tracy V. Wilson? Unsupervised, as far as I know.
8:02 Holly Frey? Yeah.
8:03 Tracy V. Wilson? I think it was in the biography of her that I referenced, which, as I've started doing lately, that was the thing that I read last, after the outline was largely put together that kind of filled in some little gaps in what I knew about her biography. So that is by Georgina Ferry, and it is called Dorothy Hodgkin: A Life. It was first published in 1998. A second edition came out in 2014. There might be another edition more recently than that. But one of the things she said was, quote, "Modern parents might question the wisdom of letting children play with naked flames in the attic of an old house." And I was like, yeah, I couldn't even play with naked flames at the dining room table, not in the attic.
8:43 Holly Frey? Well, I mean, you were a very highly supervised child.
8:47 Tracy V. Wilson? I was, yeah, this is correct. Yeah.
8:49 Holly Frey? Like, my parents were a little more tired by the time they got to me. Because we had, I had three older siblings.
8:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. I was the oldest, and my mom was an anxious person.
9:01 Holly Frey? Yeah, my mom was too, but there was a lot of finger crossing and we're tired.
9:05 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:05 Holly Frey? So I played with open flames a lot as a kid.
9:09 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. I don't remember how old I was when I got a chemistry set, which was one of, you know, the commercially made chemistry sets for children. But I begged for it for, uh, for Christmas, Christmas or birthday, one or the other, and, and got it. And most of the experiments that I wound up doing out of it were the experiments that I could do unsupervised.
9:35 Holly Frey? Yeah.
9:36 Tracy V. Wilson? That did not involve open flame, did not involve anything that was marked as being hazardous.
9:41 Holly Frey? Oh, I had my own lighter by the age of nine.
9:46 Tracy V. Wilson? That's funny.
9:47 Holly Frey? Part of that, to be fair, it wasn't like I was just running around setting things on fire. But I already sewed a lot by that point and I was taking ballet and I would singe the ends of my, the ribbons on my shoes.
9:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
9:58 Holly Frey? So I just, it was just part of my life at that point.
10:01 Tracy V. Wilson? They got it up fray. I also really thought a lot while working on this episode about the nature of science as an international cooperative endeavor.
10:14 Holly Frey? Yeah.
10:15 Tracy V. Wilson? And how devastating it is that how much of how much science funding has been gutted in the United States. Because that affects not just the United States, but all of these other countries that were interconnected with United States research. Some of the other countries that have started increasing their science funding to try to make up for the drop in funding of the United States. Like it is not, it doesn't compare. The amount of money that was being spent in the US, like just, it was enormous. And interconnected with so many things, interconnected with the higher education system. A lot of universities, universities have basically been scientific research centers that were being subsidized by the government. And without that money, like what happens?
11:00 Tracy V. Wilson? A lot of the research is not being done. And then it also connects to people being denied entry in the United, to the United States, or being, not having their visas renewed or their whole class of visa. Maybe that's going to go away. Like all of it, I found, I just kept thinking about it. The whole time I was thinking about all of her trips.
11:23 Holly Frey? Yeah.
11:24 Tracy V. Wilson? To make connections with scientists and work with people and encourage them in so many different places, including places that it was really frowned upon for her to be going.
11:32 Holly Frey? Yeah.
11:33 Tracy V. Wilson? Like going to North Vietnam.
11:36 Holly Frey? Yeah. Yeah, I like you. I am very disheartened by the the funding cuts that have been made to a lot of programs. And I know there are people for whom that seems logical. I don't think their logic is sound, but I I understand how for somebody who is susceptible to this kind of rhetoric, if someone says they're not producing anything, they're wasting this money, that might sound like a good idea. But part of it is that people don't always understand what these labs and these research groups are doing. It's not like they can go, look, we made a this this week. Like, some of these studies
12:17 Holly Frey? are years and years long, and they don't even know what the outcome will be for quite a ways into it. And it just it breaks my heart that we're not letting those programs continue and to have time. I know some have gotten like, you could continue, but you have to hurry everything up. And it's like, well, that's not how science works. Like, no, speed science. No, there are processes that are just going to take time. Anyway, it's very disheartening.
12:46 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. And the results might be, no, this doesn't work. And we still learned something if that's the case.
12:52 Holly Frey? Right.
12:54 Tracy V. Wilson? So, yeah, yeah.
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17:41 Tracy V. Wilson? Something else that I said to you sort of in a moment between actual recording was about Dorothy and Thomas's relationship.
17:49 Holly Frey? Yeah.
17:50 Tracy V. Wilson? I, I feel like it's an overstatement to describe them as polyamorous because that is not an idea that really, like, that term had not been coined.
18:01 Holly Frey? Right.
18:01 Tracy V. Wilson? I don't think for all of their lives, definitely not for most of their lives. And I'm also not fully, fully sure what
18:13 Tracy V. Wilson? What her feelings were about his other relationships.
18:17 Holly Frey? Right.
18:18 Tracy V. Wilson? I know that conceptually, she was like, we should be free to love who we want to love. But there's a difference between thinking that conceptually and what your feelings are about it.
18:31 Holly Frey? Yeah.
18:32 Tracy V. Wilson? And I, I'm not fully confident I know what her feelings were about it. But it does seem like she knew he was having these other relationships, that neither of them felt like it was a betrayal in any way. And then it just seems to have worked for them, that they
18:49 Holly Frey? Yeah.
18:49 Tracy V. Wilson? were so rarely in the same place for long periods of time, but continually writing each other letters.
18:57 Holly Frey? Yeah, I mean, their whole marriage is unconventional, even if they did not have whatever agreement or understanding in place that like, there could be other, other romantic partners in the, the mix.
19:11 Tracy V. Wilson? Mm hmm.
19:12 Holly Frey? Just the fact that they barely lived in the same place ever.
19:15 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
19:15 Holly Frey? Is.
19:16 Tracy V. Wilson? Well, and that was like also the plan for minute one. It was like, we're gonna get married, we're gonna go on a honeymoon, but we're immediately gonna live in two different places.
19:23 Holly Frey? Yeah.
19:24 Tracy V. Wilson? When I was in college, I might've told this story before, when I was in college, I dated a guy for a chunk of my time in college. And his parents were both tenured professors at different universities in different states. And that was just because like, that was how their careers had evolved. They had both wound up on a tenure track in different places. And so they saw each other on weekends, holidays, summers. And they did a lot of driving back and forth between Western North Carolina and North Georgia. And my perception was that that worked for them and it, you know, they had basically two households in two different places. That their children went back and forth depending on what was going on. And it seemed to work out.
20:05 Holly Frey? Yeah, I used to work with a guy who lived, it was in my brief foray into the gaming industry when I was working at Cartoon Network. And he, um, I realized after that, I didn't want to stay in gaming because so many people, like the game publishes. And then, you know, not that long later, either that whole team gets. Sunset, or sometimes the company closes or whatever, like it's a very, for a lot of people, not everybody, but for a lot of people, it is a very kind of migrant career to have where you're constantly on the move.
20:38 Tracy V. Wilson? Kind of volatile.
20:39 Holly Frey? And their thing was like, well, we need somebody to have a base of operations. Like, we need, you know, one stable place while recognizing that this other person is gonna live in other places a lot of the time. And for them, they were very devoted, like he was very devoted to his family and they made it all work, but I would be miserable.
20:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
20:59 Holly Frey? Yeah, I don't want to live away from Brian.
21:01 Tracy V. Wilson? No.
21:02 Holly Frey? He's my BFF.
21:04 Tracy V. Wilson? It, it's funny to me that, because like, it's obvious to me that this kind of relationship is not a relationship that would work for you and Brian in any way.
21:13 Holly Frey? Yeah.
21:14 Tracy V. Wilson? But the fact that they got married so quickly after meeting one another.
21:19 Holly Frey? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a little parallel.
21:21 Tracy V. Wilson? Uh, that did kind of remind me of you and Brian.
21:23 Holly Frey? Well, their marriage date is very close to ours as well, which made me giggle a little. I'm like, oh, another person that.
21:30 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
21:31 Holly Frey? Married right away after they met in December.
21:34 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. I do feel like all of the distance and separation was, was hard for their kids.
21:42 Holly Frey? Oh, it had to have been.
21:43 Tracy V. Wilson? At least some of the time. And I don't know how her other siblings felt about what their somewhat similar upbringing was like, like Dorothy talked about, it, it making her a more independent person and that really becoming a part of her later life, but I don't really fully have a sense of how the younger sisters felt about how often their parents were separated, how often they were separated from their parents.
22:10 Holly Frey? Yeah, I mean, it's, this is another interesting parallel, right? Like, and there's not necessarily one answer because there are, like, my dad was career military, so there were times he was gone for sometimes years at a time.
22:24 Tracy V. Wilson? Right.
22:24 Holly Frey? And I credit that with one of the reasons I'm very independent, but it's also like, because that was a time where my mom was not always coping with things very well. And so I just kind of had to be. So it's like, on the one hand, great, it made me super independent. On the other, not great for the family overall, you know what I mean? You can have both simultaneously, so it's tricky. If they didn't write it down anywhere.
22:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
22:50 Holly Frey? We may never know.
22:51 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, yeah.
22:53 Holly Frey? I did have to giggle at one point when she was told to rest for a month.
22:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
22:59 Holly Frey? What? No. Your hands? No.
23:02 Tracy V. Wilson? Right. Right. My impression was that she got no diagnosis at that doctor visit when she was told to rest for a month.
23:10 Holly Frey? Right.
23:10 Tracy V. Wilson? And then she got home and found that John Bernal had made a breakthrough while she was at the doctor. So I think she had no diagnosis and these orders to rest. And was like, well, I'm immediately diving into this huge project that we've made a big breakthrough on.
23:27 Holly Frey? I mean, I just can't imagine any scenario where I just rest for a month.
23:32 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
23:33 Holly Frey? I'd lose my mind. Like, sure, take time off of work for a month. That sounds fun. Like, I would love a no obligation life for four weeks, but I would still be Putters McGee. I'd be in the sewing room making stuff. I'd be, you know, scooting along, doing, I don't know, trips.
23:49 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
23:49 Holly Frey? Things. I just didn't like, it sounds like that rest for a month was, especially because she was going for a complaint with pain in her hands.
23:58 Tracy V. Wilson? Pain in her hands, yeah.
23:59 Holly Frey? Would be a lot of do nothing for a month. And I think, again, this is before the wealth of entertainment options one has these days.
24:06 Tracy V. Wilson? Oh, sure.
24:07 Holly Frey? Like, at that point, what do you just sit quietly in a room? I know.
24:11 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
24:12 Holly Frey? That's torture.
24:12 Tracy V. Wilson? And I have, I have absolutely no concept whatsoever of whether rest would be helpful or harmful for somebody with rheumatoid arthritis, which they did not know yet, from my understanding, was what she had, right?
24:25 Holly Frey? Yeah.
24:25 Tracy V. Wilson? Because there, like, there are conditions where doing exercise is helpful, but there are also conditions where exercise can cause a flare up or can exacerbate situations unless it's done really carefully. And I have, I did not look into which of those.
24:41 Holly Frey? Well.
24:42 Tracy V. Wilson? Or what combination is the case with rheumatoid arthritis. But yeah, like, just as being like, oh, no rest for a month.
24:47 Holly Frey? We have some in my family and it's not the same for everybody.
24:51 Tracy V. Wilson? Okay.
24:52 Holly Frey? So you know what I mean? Some people do better if they're keeping up light amount of work and others just have inflammation that makes movement very, very painful.
25:00 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
25:01 Holly Frey? And it, it, it gets exacerbated when they try to do more like exercisey things.
25:06 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah.
25:07 Holly Frey? So I think it just depends. I don't, I mean, I could be wrong and I also am going off of some of that being quite old information, you know?
25:15 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, sure.
25:15 Holly Frey? A couple of decades old. So I'm sure modern stuff, there's a lot more therapies, medications, et cetera. But I don't think it's the same for every person.
25:23 Tracy V. Wilson? No.
25:24 Holly Frey? So complicated in a variety of ways.
25:27 Tracy V. Wilson? I think the closest thing I've ever experienced to that are, number one, when I was in high school, I got mono.
25:33 Holly Frey? Yeah.
25:35 Tracy V. Wilson? And I had about two weeks when I really could do almost nothing physically. And then the first time I got COVID, the first few days of having COVID, I did not feel as sick as I have felt a couple of different times in my life when I had like the, I felt worse one time when I had the flu and one time when I had a really bad bacterial upper respiratory infection, I felt physically worse. But I was so tired that I couldn't even think about the decision of what could, what can I watch next?
26:09 Holly Frey? Right.
26:10 Tracy V. Wilson? Very often. So I just started watching things that were really long, like the entire, and also that I had seen before because I couldn't focus on things either.
26:19 Holly Frey? Yeah.
26:20 Tracy V. Wilson? Like, let's watch the entire BBC Pride and Prejudice mini-series because I know how that story goes and this goes on for a very long time. So I won't even have to get up and like change anything.
26:31 Holly Frey? Right.
26:32 Tracy V. Wilson? And that, uh, I continued to have a lot of like really serious fatigue after getting better from like the respiratory symptom part.
26:41 Holly Frey? Yeah.
26:41 Tracy V. Wilson? And then also developed tachycardia.
26:44 Holly Frey? It's a party. It's a party.
26:45 Tracy V. Wilson? It's a whole thing. Anyway, so yeah, that's the closest thing I can imagine to like rest for a month.
26:53 Holly Frey? Misery.
26:54 Tracy V. Wilson? Really the same thing.
26:57 Tracy V. Wilson? Anyway.
26:57 Holly Frey? I gotta be busy bee. I can't even just watch a thing. I gotta be doing some.
27:02 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah. Once again, I love Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin.
27:06 Holly Frey? Yeah, she's terrific.
27:08 Tracy V. Wilson? Very glad that my trip to England kept just putting her in front of my face.
27:15 Tracy V. Wilson? Whatever's happening on your weekend, I hope you're able to take some time for yourself to rest, to rejuvenate yourself a little bit, and that you're able to have patience with yourself and with other people, and that other people are patient with you. I know sometimes I try other people's patience.
27:37 Holly Frey? I think everybody does.
27:39 Tracy V. Wilson? Yeah, I hope there's as little of that as possible over your weekend. And if you're at work, I hope work goes very well and that everyone's nice. We will be back with a brand new episode on Monday, and we'll have a Saturday classic tomorrow.
28:01 Tracy V. Wilson? Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
28:15 Speaker 01 Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness, I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound trisepotide, the first known FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.
28:31 Speaker 02 Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer. Or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type two. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic
29:16 Speaker 02 reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.
29:39 Speaker 01 Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.
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