SYMHC Classics: Olympe de Gouges

This 2021 episode covers Olympe de Gouges, known primarily for her 1791 pamphlet “Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Citizen.” But her writing and political activity went far beyond that one pamphlet. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:04Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 2:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  Happy Saturday. This month is the 235th anniversary of Olympe de Gouges's Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Female Citizen, published in September of 1791. That is the work she is most known for outside of France today, but she had a whole career beyond that as an activist and as a playwright.

• 3:21Holly Frey?

  This episode originally came out on January 18th, 2021. Enjoy.

• 3:28Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 3:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 3:42Holly Frey?

  And I'm Holly Frey.

• 3:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  We have gotten a lot of requests over the years for an episode on Olympe de Gouges, who's known, at least outside of France, primarily for a 1791 pamphlet titled Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Citizen. And this was published as a direct response to the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, with the Declaration of the Rights of Man using the French word citoyen, and de Gouges's response using the more feminine form of that word, citoyenne. They look very different in writing, but they're pronounced a little similarly.

• 4:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  Olympe de Gouges's writing and political activity, though, went way, way beyond that one pamphlet that she's famous for now. And also, her execution, which happened just before the start of the Reign of Terror, was not because of the calls for equal rights for women that she's become so associated with. It's a whole other thing. So that's who we're going to talk about today.

• 4:51Holly Frey?

  And Olympe de Gouges, her upbringing and early life are really hazy, and they are full of contradictions, some of which are thanks to her own writing. We do know that she was born Marie Guz on May 7, 1748, in Montauban, which is north of Toulouse in southern France. Her mother was Anne Olympe Moise, a maid servant whose father was a draper. And at least legally, Marie's father was a butcher named Pierre Guz. But there were rumors that her father was actually Jean-Jacques Lefranc, who would later become Marquis de Pompeignan. And the Lefrancs and the Moises had been connected for generations. And although Jean-Jacques was only five years her senior, he was Anne Olympe's godfather.

• 5:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  The Tarn River, which is prone to really dangerous and dramatic flooding, runs through the region where the Guz family lived. And when the young Marie Guz was only two, Pierre Guz died as a result of one of these floods. Aside from the fact that it was connected to the flooding, we don't really know the details of the cause of death. I mean, an obvious one would be that he drowned, but flooding also causes disease and famines and other issues, so we don't really know. At some point after that, Marie's mother got married again, this time to a police officer.

• 6:13Holly Frey?

  And beyond that, we don't know much else about Marie Guz's early life. She probably got at least some education at an Ursuline convent. She could write well enough to sign her own marriage documents, and the Ursuline convent would have been the most likely place for a girl of her station to have become literate.

• 6:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  That marriage was to Louis Aubrey, who was a caterer who had been one of the late Pierre Guz's associates. And this happened when Marie was only 17. Marie and Louis had a son, also named Pierre, about two years later. And then a few months after that, Louis died. This was also as a result of a Tarn River flood. And once again, we don't really know much clarity on the details beyond it being related to the flooding.

• 6:59Holly Frey?

  Marie's marriage to Louis had been against her will, and after his death, she refused to marry again. And she also refused to conform to what was expected of a widowed mother. Instead, she moved to Paris in 1767. It is unclear whether she took her son with her or whether she left him in someone else's care while he was young. And she also changed her name to Olympe de Gouges, drawing from parts of Anne Olympe and Pierre Guz's names, and also adding the "de," which made it sound a little more aristocratic. She may have also meant her new name is sort of a racy joke, because at the time, "Gouge" was a slang term for body women.

• 7:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I found totally opposite accounts of whether she took her son with her or left him with someone else. Regardless, though, in Paris, Olympe de Gouges was supported by Jacques-Baptiste de Rosier, who was a wealthy man who owned a military transport company. And she spent her first years in Paris really immersed in self-study, attending and possibly even hosting literary salons, and then poring over the work of Enlightenment thinkers, particularly Jean-Jacques Rousseau. During these years, she also would have expanded her knowledge of French as a language. Her first language was actually a regional dialect called Occitan. Because French was her second language and her formal education was pretty minimal,

• 8:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  she did most of her writing in French through a secretary.

• 8:31Holly Frey?

  In 1784, Jean-Jacques Lefranc, Marquis de Pompeignan, died, and de Gouges started working on an epistolary novel that would be published in 1788. And that was called Madame de Valmont's Memoirs on the Ingratitude and Cruelty of the Flauquert Family Toward Her Own, which rendered such services to the Sirs Flauquert.

• 8:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  So this book is one of the reasons why some of the biographical accounts of Olympe de Gouges's early life are really contradictory. She framed this book as a real correspondence, with only the names changed to protect the reputations of the people involved. Today, though, most sources describe this book as semi-autobiographical. But sometimes they also use the letters contained in it to try to kind of glean some details about de Gouges's early life. On the other hand, the first de Gouges biography, available in English, is Women's Rights in the French Revolution: A Biography of Olympe de Gouges. That's by Sophie Mosse, and it was translated from French.

• 9:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  This biography was first published in 2007, and the author cites these memoirs, which, again, is an epistolary novel. She cites them repeatedly as fact, like the footnotes are literally this book.

• 9:51Holly Frey?

  And this novel was inspired in part by Les Liaisons dangereuses, which had been published in 1782, and was also written in the form of letters exchanged among its characters. In The Memoir of Madame de Valmont, the main characters are Madame de Valmont and her half-brother, son of the Marquis de Flauquert. In addition to their correspondence, the book also includes Madame de Valmont's correspondence with other family members.

• 10:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Part of this book's framework is an unnamed narrator or editor who's brought these letters together to publish, and also takes a part in some of the correspondence. And this unnamed editor maintains that all the facts she's putting forth in the letters are, quote, "authentic truths." And then what starts out as a comic story told through letters gradually shifts to document Madame de Valmont's attempts to prove that she is really the Marquis's daughter and to get his recognition and support.

• 10:51Holly Frey?

  The letters come together to paint the Flahcor family as having been cruel and indifferent to Madame de Valmont's mother, with the Marquis trying to distance himself from her while never flat out denying that he is the father of her child. The unnamed editor and Madame de Valmont are both generally interpreted as stand ins for de Gouge herself, with the Marquis de Flahcor representing the Marquis de Pompeignan.

• 11:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  Biographer Sophie Musset contends that the Marquis de Pompeignan was unquestionably Olympe de Gouge's biological father, and that everybody in the community knew this. Even that the Lafranc family had taken pains to send Jean Jacques away from the area to separate him from Anne Olympe when they were young. This just isn't something that it's possible to conclusively know at this point, though. For Olympe de Gouge's own part, she didn't overtly claim that the Marquis de Pompeignan was her father, but she did sort of seem to stoke the idea that he could be. Since he had been dead for four years by the time the memoirs of Madame Valmont was published,

• 11:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  we really do not have his thoughts on this matter at all, unless the letters really are his real letters, as the book contends.

• 12:08Holly Frey?

  Which seems like a very long walk, but-

• 12:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  I mean, it could be what, like, we just don't, we don't really know.

• 12:15Holly Frey?

  And this purported connection to the Marquis de Pompeignan may have given Olympe de Gouge access to theatrical and literary circles that she might not have had otherwise. Apart from his status, the Marquis was a poet, playwright, and literary critic, whose biggest claim to fame at this point is having become the arch enemy of the way more famous French writer Voltaire. So the idea that she was his unacknowledged daughter may have opened some doors for her. And it definitely seems to have led to some of her later advocacy on social issues related to children born out of wedlock and their mothers.

• 12:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  Olympe de Gouge wrote one other novel during her lifetime, but she was a lot more prolific when it came to writing plays. And we will get to more of that after a sponsor break.

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• 19:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  We know that Olympe de Gouge had at least one wealthy benefactor who supported her life in Paris. That was Jacques-Baptiste de Rosier, who we mentioned earlier. It's likely that she had other benefactors as well. She may have had romantic relationships with some of them, but like so many other details about her life, it's all pretty vague.

• 19:35Holly Frey?

  Degas was also friends with Madame de Monteson, wife of Louis Philippe I d'Orléans. That's the Duke of Orleans. And at one point, she was rumored to be having an affair with the Duke's son, who was later known as Philippe Égalité. And this may have been a rumor spread to try to tarnish Degas's reputation. But her son Pierre did wind up getting an appointment as an engineer, thanks to the Orleans family.

• 20:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  As Olympe Degas was making connections to some of the really wealthy and powerful families of France, she was also writing plays that focused in one way or another on injustice and social issues. They tackled themes like divorce and women's rights during and after a divorce, as well as sexual double standards and the existence of debtors' prisons, the rights of children born out of wedlock, and girls being forced to marry or sent to convents against their will.

• 20:29Holly Frey?

  Overall, her female characters in these plays had and used their agency, and they supported and protected one another rather than being rivals or adversaries. And when women in Degas's plays were victimized, it was not something that was played for its own sake or for shock value. It was connected back to a greater theme of social injustice.

• 20:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  At the same time, though, Degas's plays didn't necessarily dispel negative stereotypes of women, such as the idea that women were weak or deceitful. Instead, she framed those traits as the inevitable consequences of women's place in French society. While there were individual women who held high positions within the monarchy or the aristocracy, women as a group had very little overt political power. Educational opportunities for girls were really limited, and for most women, their only options for their adult lives were to get married or to enter a convent. And either way, they had virtually no property rights or control over their own lives and bodies.

• 21:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  So, for example, Degas saw women as deceitful because they had to be to survive in this environment, and as weak because they were given no opportunities to build their own strength.

• 21:46Holly Frey?

  Olympe Degas established a private amateur theater in Paris. But when it came to public theater, there was really just one option: the French National Theater, known as the Comédie Française, which essentially had a monopoly on professional theater. The Comédie Française accepted new plays and then performed them in the order that they were received. So if there was a backlog, which there usually was, there could be a really long delay between a play's acceptance and its actual performance. Accepted plays were not published until they had been performed, or until three years after they had been accepted, whichever might come first. That gives you an indication of how big the backlog was.

• 22:29Holly Frey?

  Playwrights whose plays were accepted were given entry privileges at the theater, but when it came to the performance of the play itself, that was completely out of their control. So especially for new playwrights who were first trying to make a name for themselves, their careers really rested on the whims and political shifts of the Comédie Française.

• 22:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  This was true for Olympe Degas. In 1784, she wrote Zemmour and Mirza, or The Happy Shipwreck. Sometimes that's translated as The Fortunate Shipwreck. This was a melodrama that takes place in the East Indies, involving the shipwrecked, aristocratic, Sanfranmanc family, as well as an enslaved Asian couple. The shipwreck is described as happy because it leads to the enslaved couple being freed. Degas submitted this play to the Comédie Française anonymously, and it was accepted in 1785.

• 23:23Holly Frey?

  As time passed after her play was accepted, Degas started writing to the theater and its actors about when it would be performed. She became so insistent that in September of 1785, the troupe leader wrote back to her and told her that they were pulling that play from the repertoire and striking her name from the list of people who had entry privileges at the theater. The theater also petitioned to have her arrested.

• 23:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  That might sound a little extreme. This was not really a unique situation at all. It was common for playwrights to become really frustrated with the Comédie Française, to the point of being combative with their correspondents. It was also pretty common for the company to then reverse their acceptance of the play. But what was really unusual was for a playwright who was treated this way to be a woman. Between 1761 and 1789, the Comédie Française accepted only nine plays written by women. To put that in context, the royal regulations required the company to produce between 25 and 40 new plays a year. It was not doing that, was really performing more like 10 or 12, which honestly still

• 24:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  sounds like a large number of plays. It was accepting more work than it was performing, though. So plays by women just made up a really tiny portion of the theater's repertoire.

• 24:47Holly Frey?

  I feel like this is the story of so many companies who set really big goals at the beginning of every year.

• 24:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:53Holly Frey?

  There's no way you're gonna meet them.

• 24:57Holly Frey?

  Aside from Degas, only two of those women corresponded with the company about their work. That was the Delorme sisters, who had written a one-act comedy together. The Comédie Française performed that comedy only once, and the Delorme sisters felt that it had been dropped in favor of work by better-known playwrights. They revised the play and resubmitted it, and the company rejected that revision six months later.

• 25:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  So while the company had taken the step of penalizing other playwrights who pushed too hard with their correspondents, Olympe Degas was really the only woman to face such a treatment. The Delorme sisters had not had their revision accepted, but like, they had also not been stripped from the roles.

• 25:40Holly Frey?

  There was no warrant out for their arrest.

• 25:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Or threatened with arrest. So she wrote to the Duke de Richelieu, who was one of the first gentlemen of the king's bedchamber, noting that while the Comédie Française had treated other playwrights this way, the theater's conduct was, quote, "extraordinary toward a woman." The duke got her status with the company restored, and although the Comédie Française still did not perform that play, her correspondence on the subject became a little more conciliatory after this.

• 26:13Holly Frey?

  Four years passed between the time when The Happy Shipwreck was accepted and when it was finally performed. And in that time, Degas had revised it repeatedly. And in August of 1788, she had printed an unbound version of the play, which was technically allowed under the policies of the Comédie Française. But it was also considered kind of a rude move on her part.

• 26:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, she had not quite gotten to that three-year mark yet. She kind of did an end run around the letter of the law. By the time the company did perform the play in 1789, it was shorter. The story took place in the Caribbean, and the characters of Zemmour and Mirza had become African rather than Asian. The play had been retitled The Slavery of Negroes or The Happy Shipwreck. It's often been described as the first explicitly abolitionist play in French, and the first French play told from the point of view of enslaved people.

• 27:11Holly Frey?

  Even though the Comédie Française did finally perform this work, the performances themselves did not go smoothly. Because of its abolitionist focus, it drew heavy criticism from wealthy people who had connections to French colonies in the Caribbean that relied on enslaved labor. Abolitionists praised the play, while landowners hired hecklers to disrupt the performances.

• 27:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, some of the people paying people to disrupt the performances would have been just like people who had investments, as well as like people who directly owned these plantations and the enslaved workers who were there. Degas also claimed that there was sabotage on the part of the actors. The ones who had been cast in the roles of Africans did refuse to darken their skin for the roles. So the idea of white actors in blackface was still absolutely rooted in racism, but it didn't have quite the same connotations in the late 1700s as it would develop during and after the era of menstrual shows that started to develop in the early 1800s.

• 28:17Holly Frey?

  France's movement for the abolition of slavery was still in its infancy when Olympe Degas first wrote Zemmour and Mirza. The Society of the Friends of Blacks was established in 1788, and Degas became a member. Slavery was abolished in France in 1794, although Napoleon restored it in 1802.

• 28:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  By her count, Olympe Degas wrote more than 40 plays, although only 12 of them survive, and only four of them were actually staged during her lifetime. And aside from her novels and plays, she also wrote more than 60 political pamphlets during the French Revolution, and we will get to that after another quick sponsor break.

• 29:00Speaker 05

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• 30:26Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 31:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  to help solve hiring challenges and find people who can help drive results. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Get your $75 sponsored job credit today at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

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• 32:21Speaker 07

  or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 33:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  We've all done it. Tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends. Not to cancel them, not to hype them

• 33:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  more, but to actually understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jess A. have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter,

• 34:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy only gets better with age on the podcast that never gets old. Listen to Silver Linings, available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  The Cahal de Femme, or the Woman Question, was a literary and philosophical debate that had been going on in France and other parts of Europe for hundreds of years prior to the French Revolution, starting in the Renaissance. It involved questions about the nature of women and about women's rights and status within the society. And a lot of these same questions were argued again during the French Revolution.

• 35:42Holly Frey?

  Although men were doing a lot of this arguing, women were also politically active during the French Revolution, particularly when it came to subjects that were considered part of women's sphere. A big one was food and access to food. In 2017, we did an episode on the Women's March on Versailles, which started on March 5, 1789. And this was a march from Paris to Versailles with the goal of getting the monarchy to address a serious food shortage and return to Paris.

• 36:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Women, many of whom were anonymous, published work on subjects like education and poverty, as well as criticizing divorce and inheritance laws that favored men. The various factions that arose during the revolution varied a little bit in how welcoming they were of women. I say a little bit, it was broader than that. There were some factions that were like, nah, we only have men in our leadership, and others who did allow women at least some participation. So women also formed their own political clubs during the French Revolution. Many of those clubs were still focused on the subjects that were considered appropriate for women, like food and education.

• 36:52Holly Frey?

  Olaf de Guiche had some overlap with these other, often anonymous, women. She wrote on some of the same subjects, including divorce, inheritance, and education, particularly education for girls. She called for women to be able to publicly name the fathers of their children born out of wedlock and for those children to be legitimized. She also advocated an end to the dowry system and the creation of services for widows, mothers, and children living in poverty.

• 37:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  But unlike many other women writers who were often anonymous, she also wrote under her own name. And she wrote more broadly on other political issues and on women's political and social rights in general. She advocated for professions to be open to anyone, regardless of their sex, their color, or their social status. She believed that celibacy requirements for monks and nuns set the stage for abuse and called for them to have marriage rights. She proposed a voluntary tax to try to address wealth inequality and to save the French Republic from bankruptcy. She also advocated a luxury tax that would pay for services for the poor. She called for an end to the death penalty. And she advocated

• 38:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  the establishment of a national theater that would focus on publishing and staging the work of women playwrights. Some of the reforms that she advocated were ultimately adopted, including protections for children who were born out of wedlock and divorce rights for women. These were passed into law by the National Assembly in 1792.

• 38:25Holly Frey?

  On August 26, 1789, the French National Constituent Assembly issued the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, written by the Marquis de Lafayette and the Abbe Siez, along with Thomas Jefferson. And that includes 17 articles outlining the fundamental rights of male citizens. And in 1791, the National Assembly adopted a new constitution, one that gave the right to vote only to male taxpaying citizens.

• 38:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  To a lot of people, this was a little at odds with the French Revolution's professed values, including liberty and equality. De Gouges's response to all of this was the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Citizen, sometimes translated as the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen, thanks to her use of the word citoyenne. It followed the same basic format as the Declaration of the Rights of Man, including a preamble, 17 articles, and an epilogue. It was also dedicated to Marie Antoinette, encouraging her to take up the cause of the revolution and to use her position to advance the cause of women's rights.

• 39:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  De Gouges published this on September 14, 1791, to coincide with Louis XVI's ratification of the new constitution that excluded women from full citizenship rights.

• 39:50Holly Frey?

  And the prologue to this piece began, quote, "Man, are you capable of being fair? A woman is asking. At least you will allow her that right. Tell me, what gave you the sovereign right to oppress my sex?"

• 40:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  The 17 articles follow the Declaration of the Rights of Man, point by point. And in some cases, they simply use the word woman or women in place of man or men, or they specifically include women in addition to men where they're referenced. So Article 1 of the Declaration of the Rights of Woman, for example, is, quote, "Woman is born free and remains equal to man in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only on the common good."

• 40:33Holly Frey?

  Other articles add additional nuance. For example, Article 10 in the Declaration of the Rights of Man is, quote, "No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law." In the Rights of Women, that is written as, quote, "None must be disquieted for their opinions, however fundamental. Woman is entitled to mount the scaffold. She must be equally entitled to mount the rostrum so long as her manifestos do not disturb the public order according to the law."

• 41:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Article 11 is about free expression. And in De Gouges's writing, she specifically cites the rights of mothers to name their children's fathers. Quote, "The free expression of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious rights of woman, given that this liberty ensures the legitimacy of fathers and their children. Any female citizen can therefore freely declare, 'I am the mother of your child,' without a barbarous prejudice forcing them to hide the truth, unless in response to the abuse of this freedom in cases determined by the law."

• 41:43Holly Frey?

  In a postscript that's longer than the rest of the document, De Gouges calls for women to wake up and acknowledge their rights. She contends, quote, "Women have done more harm than good. Constraint and dissimulation have been their lot. What force stole from them, ruse returned. They had to resort to the power of their charms, and the most irreproachable man could not resist." She then draws parallels between marriage and slavery, ending on the idea that, quote, "marriage is the tomb of trust and love." She also prints a template for what she describes as a social contract between a man and a woman, a union that, unlike marriage, involves a man and a woman coming together in equality and of their own volition.

• 42:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the postscript, she also recounts an argument with a coachman who tried to overcharge her. And this is something that she includes as an example of the everyday injustices and indignities that women face. But it also seems enough like a digression that a lot of time it is left out of English translations.

• 42:46Holly Frey?

  Olaf de Gouges had always faced criticism and derision for her writing and her political activism. There were allegations of affairs that were meant to discredit her, along with claims that she was illiterate or a fraud. But when it came to the Declaration of the Rights of Woman, what really drew suspicion was her dedication to Marie Antoinette, which reinforced suspicions that she was, in fact, a monarchist.

• 43:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  And unlike a lot of the other suspicions that swirled around her, this one was actually pretty accurate. In spite of her revolutionary writings and her general support of the French Revolution, Olaf de Gouges thought a constitutional monarchy was the system of government that was most suited to the national character of France. But she also thought that the monarch should be a symbolic emblem for France as a nation and should work for the good of its most vulnerable people, not a symbol of power and a tool to carry out the wishes of the aristocracy.

• 43:47Holly Frey?

  When King Louis XVI was tried for treason in 1792, Olaf de Gouges offered to defend him. Her argument was that he unquestionably had done wrong, but that he had done wrong when he was king. By her argument, since France had abolished the monarchy and become a republic in September of 1792, the former king was no longer guilty in the eyes of the republic. The republic could not prosecute someone who was no longer the monarch for something the monarch had done. Her offer to defend the king, by the way, was not accepted, and he was, of course, executed on January 21, 1793.

• 44:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, we're not suggesting that defense would have worked, but...

• 44:29Holly Frey?

  It's kind of a weird press-a-logic.

• 44:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  It is a little, yeah.

• 44:34Holly Frey?

  It's like, no, he stopped being the person that you hate when he stopped being king.

• 44:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 44:41Holly Frey?

  That's not quite right.

• 44:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  So by the time Louis XVI was executed, tensions had been growing between revolutionaries and counterrevolutionaries, and also among different factions within the revolution for years. The French Revolutionary Wars had also started in 1792, and that had put even more strain on this young republic. The revolution had become increasingly radical and increasingly intolerant of suspected monarchists and counterrevolutionaries. Olaf de Gouges had been mostly aligned with the revolutionary faction known as the Girondins. 29 of them had been expelled from the National Convention and arrested, and then would be executed a few months later.

• 45:27Holly Frey?

  In the face of all of this tension, in July of 1793, De Gouges proposed that each department of France be allowed to govern itself, rather than the one unified nation of France that was required by law. And this idea seems to be what finally led to her arrest on July 20, 1793, not long after the mass arrest of the Girondins. She seems to have genuinely believed that if she cooperated, that her writings would demonstrate that she was loyal to France and the revolution, and that she would be cleared of all suspicion. She even took investigators to her office and storage space when they couldn't find any incriminating writing in her home.

• 46:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  The materials that they wound up confiscating included an unfinished five-act play called "France Saved or the Tyrant Dethroned." As its title suggests, the monarch is dethroned in this play, but its sympathetic portrayal of Marie Antoinette was used as evidence in Marie de Gouges's trial. So was a pamphlet she had written called "Three Governments Battle to the Death," which called for the nation of France to make an ultimate choice among monarchy, federalism, or republicanism. She had also been highly critical of Maximilian Ropes' Pierre and of the increasing violence associated with the revolution and the war.

• 46:50Holly Frey?

  On July 25, 1793, De Gouges was charged with, quote, "Having composed a work contrary to the expressed desire of the entire nation, and directed against whoever might propose a form of government other than that of a republic, one and indivisible." She was incarcerated, and she continued writing, smuggling pamphlets detailing the conditions there out of her prison.

• 47:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  At trial, the judge denied De Gouges legal representation, so she had to represent herself. And different accounts interpret her behavior at court very differently. She claimed to be 38, but she was really 45. She's also described as sighing, smirking, or rolling her eyes as the charges were read, either, depending on who you're reading, clearly not taking the proceeding seriously, or trying to kind of performatively embody the idea of innocence, almost like a character from one of her plays.

• 47:50Holly Frey?

  She was ultimately found in violation of a law that banned the composition or printing of works that advocated the re-establishment of royalty or the dissolution of the republic, which was punishable by death. She tried to avoid execution by claiming to be pregnant, but a doctor examined her and said that she was not. As is the case with any historical examination of this kind that we talk about on the show, we really don't know what was done, what this doctor did as a test, or whether it would have been able to even detect a pregnancy.

• 48:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I mean... Eventually, it becomes relatively obvious, but in the early stages, who knows?

• 48:30Holly Frey?

  In the early stages in the 1790s?

• 48:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yes. Anyway, Olympe de Gouges was executed in Paris on November 3rd, 1793. And her last words were, "Children of the homeland, you will avenge my death." The word homeland, as she said it in French, is la patrie. And that's also translated as both motherland and fatherland, depending on who you're looking at, because the patrie part comes from the word for father, but la is also a feminine article, so it kind of meshes both of that.

• 49:07Holly Frey?

  Olympe de Gouges's son Pierre denounced her during all of this. And while she did write several letters to him during her imprisonment and her trial, those were all confiscated.

• 49:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  She was buried at Madeleine Cemetery in Paris, which was later closed and cleared with the skeletal remains being moved to the Paris catacombs. Although, in unearthed in July 2020, we talked about the discovery of skeletal remains in the Chapelle Expatoire, which is a memorial chapel that was built on the site of the former cemetery. So it's possible that the remains of Olympe de Gouges are in the Paris catacombs. Also possible that they could be in these relatively newly unearthed skeletal remains in this chapel.

• 49:52Holly Frey?

  De Gouges continued to be criticized and vilified after her death in ways that questioned her politics, her character, and her womanhood. In 1793, French politician Pierre Gaspar Chaumet wrote, quote, "Never forget that Virago, the woman man, the impudent Olympe de Gouges, who abandoned the cares of her household to get involved in politics and commit crimes. She died on the guillotine for having forgotten the virtues that suit her sex."

• 50:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  It really took decades, I mean, even until like the 1990s, before people started really viewing Olympe de Gouges as a forerunner of the feminist movement and to really seriously study her work. There were calls to have her commemorated at the Pantheon in Paris in 1993, and then again in 2013. The first woman to be interred at the Pantheon was Sophie Berthelot, whose husband, chemist and politician Marcelin Berthelot, had died within hours of her passing. The first woman to be interred at the Pantheon based on her own accomplishments was Marie Curie, when that didn't happen until 1995. Although Olympe de Gouges has not been Pantheonized,

• 51:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  a bust of her was installed at the National Assembly in 2016. That is Olympe de Gouges. As I said just a second ago, there was not a lot of serious look at her work and her life until roughly the 90s, really. And I would like to say I still find the available research lacking. There was just not as much of it as I would have liked, and not as robust as I would have liked it to be.

• 51:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note, our email address is [email protected]. And you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:57Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 52:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Whether you're calling the wise women in your life, video calling your girlfriends across the country, or checking in on someone who always knows how to make you smile, staying connected matters. Those small conversations, shared laughs, and quick hellos are what keep relationships strong even when life gets busy. Some of the most life-giving conversations start with just a phone call. That's why AT&T guarantees the network you can rely on, so you can focus on the moments and people that matter most. That's the AT&T Guarantee. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit ATT.com/guarantee for details.

• 53:03Speaker 07

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 54:05Speaker 05

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 54:26Speaker 07

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 54:34Speaker 06

  Hola a todos. Soy Jamie Lynn Segler. Cuando me diagnosticaron, tenía veintitantos años, y todo mi mundo cambió por completo. Pero con el tiempo decidí que no iba a permitir que eso frenara mi vida. Quise tomar las riendas. Y después de hablar con mi médico sobre mis opciones, la elección para mí fue obvia. Boom, SOS KISSIMTA. Obtenga más información sobre KISSIMTA o FOTUMA MAP en kissimta.com.

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• 55:40Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.