Hammersmith Ghost Murder

In late 1803, accounts of ghost sightings began to circulate in Hammersmith, England. This led to a tragic event, and a legal case that revealed some limitations in existing English law.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Holly Frey?

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• 2:09Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:19Holly Frey?

  Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frey.

• 2:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 2:24Holly Frey?

  Happy almost Halloween.

• 2:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 2:28Holly Frey?

  As I mentioned on an earlier episode this month, I haven't been as Halloweeny. I feel like as usual, I don't know if that's just the

• 2:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  The time.

• 2:39Holly Frey?

  Anxiety lurking in the air everywhere around, or if I'm just more of a skeptic than ever. I don't know. But anyway, this one is probably our most Halloweeny. Today's episode covers a case of a lot of people believing there was a ghost hanging around. And something that happened as a consequence of that concern over a ghost that then became a huge legal battle.

• 3:05Holly Frey?

  This is a case of mistaken identity, and I feel like it also needs a little bit of a heads up that there is some gun violence. But it's also legally an interesting story because this is a case that brought to light a problem in British law that would have ramifications for a long time before it was conclusively settled. And we'll get into all of that today as we talk about the Hammersmith Ghost Murder.

• 3:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  So in late 1803, frightening accounts started circulating in Hammersmith, England. Today, that is a borough of London. The stories were all really similar, and they were told by a variety of local residents who all appear to have witnessed the same thing. That was a tall figure draped in white, described as an apparition. This apparition was seen in town, often in the churchyard, but occasionally moving outside of that space. Some people claimed to have been attacked by this phantom.

• 4:08Holly Frey?

  As these accounts became more and more common, they also became more and more detailed. The ghost was said to appear right after the town clock struck 1 a.m., although it could also pop out at other times. It was associated with Black Lion Lane specifically, which was at the edge of the neighborhood near undeveloped fields. And soon, the ghost even had an identity and was believed to be the spirit of a man who had died by suicide in 1802, allegedly by slitting his own throat. Some accounts even stated that this apparition occasionally appeared with horns. Others said that he had glass eyes, and sometimes, instead of all white, he was said to wear the skin of a beast.

• 4:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  In an account that was written mere months after the events we're talking about in this episode, which was part of the series of books cataloging the interesting happenings of the time called Kirby's Wonderful and Scientific Museum, there was even the assertion that locals believed there might be multiple ghosts. These accounts persisted to the point that the whole area started to be genuinely concerned. In one instance, a Mr. Russell, who was the driver of an eight-horse carriage, was so frightened by the ghost that he abandoned his team and a carriage filled with 16 people and just ran away.

• 5:33Holly Frey?

  Those passengers were just left hanging with the ghost, I guess.

• 5:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  There was the ghost.

• 5:38Holly Frey?

  Things got worse as rumors spread that people were even dying of shock upon seeing or interacting with the ghost. In one such case, a pregnant woman was described as having fainted when she saw the ghost after passing near the graveyard at St. Paul's, and then it is said to have reached out and put its arms around her. She was found unconscious on the ground and taken to a home of a nearby resident. She reportedly died there a couple of days later, although there isn't any real substantiation for this story. For example, nothing ever mentions her name.

• 6:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Because of all this, though, there were very real fears about being on the street. People started staying inside after sundown. In an effort to put an end to the perceived threat that was holding the town in a state of constant fear, armed patrols were made up of citizens and they started mounting these patrols at night. This was more than 25 years before London got its official police force, the Metropolitan Police. So this was not an unusual means of dealing with a problem involving public safety. Some of the men in these patrols did not think there was a ghost. They suspected a very real person was just scaring the area's residents and

• 6:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  they wanted it to stop. On one patrol, a ghost was chased, but this supposed ghost was able to elude his pursuers. He said to have removed the sheet as he ran, but then could not be identified. In a lot of cases, it seemed that the purported ghost knew which routes the patrols would take and then stuck to alternate streets and paths.

• 7:21Holly Frey?

  Yeah, this is often described as being a neighborhood that had a lot of alleys, sideways, etc. So it was kind of a maze and it was easy for someone to evade capture. On January 3rd of 1804, one of these patrols was out and about, but in this case, it was not a group. It was a man on his own named Francis Smith. Smith was an excise officer who was 29 years old, and he and another man, William Gerdler, were both out patrolling, but they had decided to separate to cover more ground. The two men had worked out a call and response set of phrases so that if one approached the other, they would know that it was the person that was also on patrol and nothing sinister. So one of them would

• 8:05Holly Frey?

  open with, "Who goes there?" or perhaps a similar sentiment like, "Who is it?" The other would respond with, "A friend," and then the final confirmation was, "Advanced friend." So this seems like a great code, but it is all based on the presumption that no one else would be out in the streets, except the two of them and perhaps something or someone sinister.

• 8:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  After the two men parted ways to patrol, Francis Smith spotted a figure in white near Black Lion Lane. Hoping to end this terror in the community, Smith raised the weapon he was carrying and fired, and the figure fell to the ground. When Smith approached his target, he was horrified to see that it was a man wearing white work clothes. There were white linen trousers with a white waistcoat, apron, and even shoes. The victim was 22-year-old Thomas Millwood. That was a bricklayer who was walking home from visiting his father after work when Francis Smith mistook him for the ghost or a prankster pretending to be a ghost.

• 9:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Allegedly, this was not the first time someone had thought he was the ghost, but previous incidents had ended without any kind of serious repercussions.

• 9:20Holly Frey?

  After Smith realized what he had done, he went looking immediately for help. And he ran into two men named Stowe and Locke, and he told them that he had shot a man that he had believed to be a ghost. Initially, according to a statement given by Stowe to the paper, Smith didn't really seem to realize that he would be in trouble legally or that he had done anything wrong. Smith then told them that he had spoken to that person twice and received no answer before he fired. Stowe and Locke returned with Smith to the scene of the shooting to see that Millwood was indeed dead. Smith also put out word at a local pub that he needed to speak with William Gerdler, the man he had been out on watch sort of with, but not really.

• 10:05Holly Frey?

  And then when Gerdler got the message, he too went to the scene of the shooting.

• 10:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  The coroner's examination indicated that Thomas Millwood died from a single gunshot to the head. The bullet had entered through his mouth at the left jaw, passed through his spine to the exit at the back of his neck. According to the coroner's report, his face was blackened from the flash of gunpowder, and the death was recorded as a, quote, "rash act of willful murder."

• 10:35Holly Frey?

  Locke and Stowe had advised Smith to go home, although he had, according to their later testimony, asked them to take him into custody themselves. But they wanted to wait and see how things played out. And when the police went to Smith's home once the situation had escalated with that coroner's determination, Smith went with the authorities readily.

• 10:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  We'll talk about how his legal case played out after we pause for a sponsor break.

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• 14:11Holly Frey?

  A lot of people had come to Francis Smith's defense in the course of the coroner's inquiry. He was not disputing the fact that he had fired the shot that killed Millwood. He acknowledged that he was panicked and agitated when he saw the white figure. But Smith was also known to everyone as a very gentle and kind man. No one believed he went out on patrol the night of the shooting with anything but good intentions. Additionally, a lot of people willingly made statements about the low visibility in the town the night of the shooting, noting specifically that if you stood on one side of Black Lion Lane, the low lighting, mist, and hedges planted along it made it difficult to see across the lane in the dark.

• 14:55Holly Frey?

  Black Lion was known to be dim and shadowy because there were hedges on both sides of the lane. So seeing a white form, it actually would have been pretty difficult to make it out as a corporeal human person versus something paranormal.

• 15:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Based on the coroner's findings, Francis Smith was arrested. He pleaded not guilty with the defense that his actions were accidental based on a case of mistaken identity. He was tried at the Old Bailey on January 13th, 10 days after the incident, on the charge of willful murder. The case that played out would impact British law and change the way people talked about murder charges.

• 15:34Holly Frey?

  Francis Smith was adamant during the trial that his actions were born out of a very real fear and that he had believed he came into the presence of the ghost that had been rumored to be terrorizing the neighborhood. He had initially told the court that he wished for his counsel to speak for him, but he was told that in terms of answering the charges, he had to speak for himself and that his counsel was there solely to question the witnesses. So Smith stated in his first remarks to the court, quote, "I can only declare that I went out with a perfectly good intention. After calling to the deceased twice and receiving no answer, I became so agitated that I did not know what I was about.

• 16:15Holly Frey?

  But I solemnly declare that I am innocent of any malicious intention against any person, whatever."

• 16:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  There are some inconsistencies in the various accounts as to whether Smith believed he was shooting at a specter or whether he believed he was shooting at someone pretending to be a ghost to menace the neighborhood. Some, including the testimony of John Locke, make it sound as though Smith knew it was a person. Locke specifically said during the trial testimony, quote, "He informed me he had shot a man who he believed to be the pretended ghost of Hammersmith." But that leaves a little room for interpretation as Smith was relaying the news of the shooting to Locke after he himself had discovered that he had shot a man. As we'll see in a moment, the defense made the case that there was a very real sense

• 17:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  of a ghost threat in the neighborhood.

• 17:10Holly Frey?

  The prosecution's case made the entire ghost story out to be just utterly ridiculous. Even news accounts that ran ahead of the trial had dismissed the apparition rumors as really silly. The Morning Chronicle ran a piece about the shooting on January 6th, so that's three days after it, which read, quote, "The neighborhood of Hammersmith has for some time been alarmed by a ridiculous rumor of a ghost, which is said to have paid its nocturnal visits to the fields adjacent to Black Lion Lane." That same article quoted Thomas Millwood's sister, Ann Millwood, as describing a snippet of speech that she heard when she went to the door to watch her brother as he walked away from the house. She heard a voice say, quote, "Damn you, who are you?"

• 17:55Holly Frey?

  And then, "Stand, else I'll shoot you," right before she heard the gun being fired. Ann, worried about her brother but unable to see him, again because of these gloomy and dim lighting situation, called out her brother's name and got no answer. And at that point, she alerted her father and her mother, and a lodger who lived with the Millwood family about it. But they dismissed what she had heard as street noise. Ann, still very worried about her brother, Thomas, went out by herself, and she found him dead in the lane.

• 18:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  A lot of witnesses came forward to vouch for Smith's good character. Even Millwood's mother-in-law, Mrs. Fulbrook, was a witness for the defense. She told the court, quote, "On Saturday evening, he and I were at home, for he lived with me. He said he had frightened two ladies and a gentleman who were coming along the terrace in a carriage, for that the man said he dared to say, 'There goes the ghost,' that he said he was no more a ghost than he was, and asked him, using a bad word, did he want a punch of the head. I begged of him to change his dress. Thomas says I, as there is a piece of work about the ghost, and your clothes look white, pray do put on your greatcoat, that you may not run any danger."

• 19:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  I don't know what answer he made. He said he wished the ghost was catched, or something of that sort.

• 19:20Holly Frey?

  One thing the defense counsel asked witnesses was about the many groups of men who had gone on patrol. According to court proceedings, they asked John Locke, quote, "You know, I believe, however unfortunate it has turned out, that almost all the young men had gone out." When Locke answered in the affirmative, the follow-up question was, quote, "Which was publicly known and talked about?" So it seems this line of questioning was to establish before the court that everyone knew that armed men were prowling the streets looking for a specter. So in disregarding that danger, Thomas had somehow been responsible for what had happened to him.

• 20:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Then the defense introduced the idea that there was potentially a legitimate ghost haunting Hammersmith. They called a man named Thomas Groom, who worked for a brewer named Burgess. And Groom stated that while he and a colleague were walking through the churchyard, he very clearly felt hands around his throat, though neither of the men could see anything. This was laying the groundwork that there were enough credible instances of people saying they had interactions with the Hammersmith ghost, that it was reasonable for Francis Smith to believe that was what was before him when he pulled the trigger.

• 20:39Holly Frey?

  The Lord Chief Baron MacDonald gave orders to the jury that they must decide if Smith was guilty or not. Those orders included the instructions, quote, "It would be impossible to calculate the dangerous consequences which would ensue if men were permitted to take upon themselves the right of shooting others for certain crimes." If a man goes out with the intention of shooting robbers and kills a person who is offering him no violence, he is guilty of murder. However disgusted the jury might feel in their own minds with the abominable person guilty of the misdemeanor of terrifying the neighborhood, still, the prisoner had no right to construe such misdemeanor into a capital offense, or to conclude that a man dressed

• 21:24Holly Frey?

  in white was a ghost. In this case, there was a deliberate carrying of a loaded gun, which the prisoner concluded he was entitled to fire, but which he really was not, and he did fire it with a rashness which the law does not excuse. In all the circumstances of the case, no man is allowed to kill another rashly. The judge also told the jury that they could not take into account whether Francis Smith was a good man or not, that they just had to consider the facts of the case.

• 21:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  And the facts of the case were obvious. Francis Smith admitted to shooting Millwood. But because of the odd circumstances, it seems the jury tried to mitigate the outcome of the trial by finding Smith guilty not of murder, but of manslaughter. That would automatically carry a much lighter sentence. The problem, though, was that McDonald and the two other judges in the case, Justices Rook and Lawrence, stated they could not accept that outcome because Smith had not been on trial for manslaughter. This was just a matter of following the letter of the law. So the jury was instructed to, once again, deliberate with the option of delivering

• 22:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  a guilty verdict or an acquittal for murder based on the evidence of the case.

• 22:45Holly Frey?

  The judges also reminded the jurors that Thomas Millwood had not done anything on the night of the shooting, other than walk home wearing white. He had not menaced anyone. He had not tried to run. But they also noted that even if he had, even if he had been a prankster trying to scare people by feigning to be a ghost, that could only be considered a nuisance, which at most could be cited as a misdemeanor.

• 23:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  After the second round of deliberation, which took an hour, the jury came back with the verdict that Francis Smith was guilty of murder. This automatically resulted in a death sentence, and the bench ruled that Smith was to be hanged and that his body would be donated to a medical college. Knowing this was bound to stoke a controversy, the Lord Chief Baron Archibald McDonald promised to bring the matter before King George III.

• 23:40Holly Frey?

  This was a scenario where the facts of the case were covered in the press in detail, and everyone knew what had happened. It was perceived by almost everyone as an accidental shooting, but also with the understanding that in legal terms, there wasn't much leeway to find Smith anything other than guilty. Still, he did have a lot of public support, and the king also recognized the unusual circumstances and the way that the law did not really allow for any kind of nuance in a case like this. So the monarch actually issued a pardon three weeks after the initial guilty verdict. The king, unlike the jury, did have the power to change the outcome of the case and issue a guilty verdict instead

• 24:25Holly Frey?

  for the lesser charge of manslaughter and to dictate the terms of the sentencing. Francis Smith was to be imprisoned for one year to perform hard labor. The proceedings of the Old Bailey list a remission of imprisonment for Francis on July 12 of 1804, so his sentence was reduced at that point for good behavior. But after that, he sort of vanishes from the historical record.

• 24:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  But what about the ghost? Thomas Millwood was a plasterer or a bricklayer. Various different accounts call him each of those. He happened to be wearing white work clothes. He was not a spirit lurking in the graveyard waiting to scare people. So what had all those ghost sightings been about?

• 25:09Holly Frey?

  Well, initially after the shooting, sightings of the ghost did stop. And then, the day after Francis Smith's sentencing, the Hammersmith ghost stepped forward to confess. And we'll talk about that right after we hear from the sponsors that keep the show going.

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• 28:34Holly Frey?

  On January 14th, a shoemaker named John Graham reached out to authorities to state that he had been putting a sheet over his head and then walking around Hammersmith scaring people as a prank. This had initially started just as a prank against his employees. The men had been telling Graham's kids ghost stories and it really frightened the children. So Graham thought he would frighten the grown men to retaliate. And then it turned out he liked doing it. It was fun to scare people, so he started going out into the graveyard in his ghost disguise.

• 29:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Although Graham had come forward, a lot of people in Hammersmith were not convinced. They continued to believe that something spectral was lurking in their neighborhood, waiting to reach out and get them if they found themselves in close proximity to it. And there were reports that the ghost was cited many times after the trial concluded. And John Graham claimed to have been the ghost. This has given rise to theories that there may have been copycats wanting to just keep the prank going, but finding any hard evidence about that is just about impossible, given that nobody else ever came forward. So it could just as easily be that people thought they saw the ghost, even if no one was keeping up the prank.

• 29:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  And some of these sightings, which continued for several decades, really upped the ante on the odd details, including some accounts that this ghost was seen breathing fire.

• 30:06Holly Frey?

  I love that he becomes much more demonic as time goes on. Now he's got horns. Now he's got glass eyes. Now he breathes fire. The idea that Francis Smith's murder trial introduced that the British legal system needed to be able to handle cases where a person truly believed they were acting in self-defense or for the good of someone else against something supernatural was actually debated for the next 180 years. And it wasn't until another case in 1983 that there was a definitive ruling on such cases, though it did not involve the supernatural, but a case of misunderstanding the situation. And that was Regina versus Gladstone Williams. So Regina is the word often used in British cases to indicate that the case is brought by the crown.

• 30:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think the Brits might pronounce it Regina.

• 30:55Holly Frey?

  I think so too, but I don't love that.

• 30:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  No.

• 30:58Holly Frey?

  Sorry to all of my British friends. It sounds so much like other things to me that I cannot do it in my soul.

• 31:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  This appellate case is written up with the following information as its introductory explainer, quote, "On 9th March this year, Gladstone Williams appeared in the Inter-London Crown Court, charged with assault occasioning actual bodily harm. After a trial, he was convicted and was given a conditional discharge for 12 months together with certain financial penalties. He now appeals on a point of law against his conviction. The facts were somewhat unusual and were as follows. On the day in question, the alleged victim, a man called Mason, saw a black youth seizing the handbag belonging to a woman who was shopping.

• 31:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  He caught up with the youth and held him, he said, with a view to taking him to a nearby police station, but the youth broke free from his grip. Mason caught the youth again and knocked him to the ground, and he then twisted one of the youth's arms behind his back in order to immobilize him and to enable him, he said, once again to take the youth to a police station." The youth was struggling and calling for help at this time, and no one disputed the fact. Upon the scene then came the appellant, who had only seen the latter stages of this incident. According to Mason, he told the appellant, first of all, that he was arresting the youth

• 32:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  for mugging the lady, and secondly, that he, Mason, was a police officer. That was not true. He was asked for his warrant card, which obviously was not forthcoming, and thereupon something of a struggle ensued between Mason, on the one hand, and the appellant and others, on the other hand. In the course of these events, Mason sustained injuries to his face, loosened teeth and bleeding gums. The appellant put forward the following version of events. He said he was returning from work by bus when he saw Mason dragging the youth along and striking him again and again. He was so concerned about the matter that he rapidly got off the bus and made his way

• 33:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  to the scene and asked Mason what on earth he was doing. In short, he said that he punched Mason because he thought if he did so, he would save the youth from further beating and what he described as torture.

• 33:27Holly Frey?

  So the Cliff Notes, a person claiming to be an off-duty policeman saw a kid stealing a woman's bag and chased and tackled him, and a passerby thought that the kid was being attacked by this person who said they were an off-duty policeman and interceded. But that passerby, Gladstone Williams, thought he was protecting an innocent person because he did not have all the facts of the situation when he acted, and there was that confusion where it was claimed that he was a policeman and he wasn't. And Williams, the one who interceded, thinking he was saving this kid, was charged and convicted of assault.

• 34:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  But Williams' appeal led to a ruling that established precedent regarding charges where people use force, but can establish that their intent and understanding of the situation was inherently lawful.

• 34:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  That ruling reads in part, quote, "In a case of self-defense or the prevention of crime is concerned, if the jury came to the conclusion that the defendant believed or may have believed that he was being attacked or that a crime was being committed, and that force was necessary to protect himself or to prevent the crime, then the prosecution have not proved their case. If, however, the defendant's alleged belief was mistaken, and if the mistake was an unreasonable one, that may be a peaceful reason for coming to the conclusion that the belief was not honestly held and should be rejected. Even if the jury come to the conclusion that the mistake was an unreasonable one, if the defendant

• 35:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  may genuinely have been laboring under it, he is entitled to rely upon it."

• 35:09Holly Frey?

  I'm so sorry, all of that, uh, legal discussion landed in your basket.

• 35:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  There's also legal discussion that I hate, for the record.

• 35:21Holly Frey?

  What do you mean?

• 35:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  If I am understanding this correctly, this is the kind of argument that's used to justify people being like, "I shot that guy."

• 35:30Holly Frey?

  Oh, yes, 100%. We should talk about this on Behind the Scenes.

• 35:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 35:34Holly Frey?

  But yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, we should talk about it behind the scenes. Although the law may have become a settled matter, according to some locals, Thomas Millwood has not. Because now there are reports that Millwood has, in his ghost form, been haunting the Black Lion Pub on the street where he died. The pub has been there since the latter half of the 1700s, although specific dates on its origin do seem to vary. The pub would have been one of the primary public places where the Hammersmith ghost would have been discussed and debated. And Millwood's body was taken there for examination by Mr. Flowers, who worked for the coroner's office after he had been shot. There have been employees of the pub who have claimed over the years that they see

• 36:18Holly Frey?

  Thomas frequently. In 2004, the Ghost Club, which was founded by Charles Dickens in 1862, had a meetup at the Black Lion Pub to mark the 200-year anniversary of the shooting.

• 36:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  There is a plaque outside the pub that mentions the ghost. It reads, quote, "The Black Lion, formerly known as the Black Lion," spelled with a Y. "A public house has stood on the site for well over 200 years. Originally a pigery, it is reputed that the pig farmer started brewing beer for himself and his friends. This proved so popular that it overtook his agricultural interests as his main occupation. The Hammersmith Ghost started haunting Black Lion Lane and St. Paul's Churchyard in 1804. One night, an excise officer, Francis Smith, filled his blunderbuss with shot and himself with ale before killing an unfortunate, white-clothes

• 37:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  bricklayer, Thomas Millwood, whom he had mistaken for the ghost. It was at the Black Lion that the body was taken and an inquest held later."

• 37:21Holly Frey?

  So, in a bit of historical irony, a man mistaken for a ghost and shot because of that mistake has now become a ghost in his own right, at least according to local lore.

• 37:36Holly Frey?

  And that is the last of our Halloweeners for the year.

• 37:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Do you have some email that may or may not be Halloween-related?

• 37:46Holly Frey?

  Has nothing to do with Halloween.

• 37:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, well.

• 37:49Holly Frey?

  Um, it's a suggestion, but also one that, um, I have had a lot of people ask me about this lately. Um, even, it came in the email, and I have been doing a number of, um, book signings at conventions lately for Killer Cocktails, and several people have asked me if we were gonna do this topic. So I feel like I should just tell people. Where I'm at on it. Uh, this is from our listener Samantha who writes, hello all. Have loved your podcast for many years and was excited and surprised to look through the catalog and not find anything on this particular subject. Perhaps I missed it, but maybe it would be a fun upcoming episode. My six-year-old daughter asked to understand the history of stuffed animals. And in our research, we found how interesting the life of Margaret Stief, the German seamstress turned

• 38:34Holly Frey?

  toy maker was. Perhaps something was mentioned during the many different Teddy Roosevelt pods, but I could not find anything particularly about her life and experiences. Would love to know your thoughts. Sam. Okay, Sam, here's the scoop. Uh, it's always on my list. I'm always poking at it. And because I had been talking about in the last year, uh, my koala project that I talked about ad nauseam on the show, a lot of people have been like, ooh, is this part of a lead up to doing, maybe is the answer? Kinda. Yeah. Uh, part of it is that I want to be thorough and there are instances of stuffed toys of a variety of types going back way deep into history. And I, some of those are a little bit tricky

• 39:15Holly Frey?

  because plushies, like clothing, are made of things that degrade really easily compared to things like,

• 39:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:24Holly Frey?

  metal and whatnot. So there's a lot of theoretical, we think this may have been a toy, or maybe it's just a piece of cotton wadding that we were confused by. There's a lot of those, but I'm, it's always in the back of my head and it's one I would love to do. Uh, it's a slow burner. That's the answer.

• 39:42Holly Frey?

  But, um, the introduction of Margaret Stief as a subject is actually a great idea. So that may be the thing that turns the corner at least a little bit. Um, cause I love plushies.

• 39:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. When I, uh, read this email, I'd like did a super quick Google and I was like, oh, that does sound very interesting. Cause I, like, I know about Stief. I know about the company, but I do not know about this person, really.

• 40:04Holly Frey?

  Yeah, there are a few kind of heritage stuffed toy companies. It would be fun to talk about. As well as there's another really cool, um, initiative regarding recycling stuffed toys that I would love to talk about. Uh, so it's on my list, my love list, and hopefully I'll get to it sooner than later. Maybe that would make a good holiday episode this year. Cause who doesn't? Listen, plushes are very near and dear to my heart. I am a grown adult woman who carries a plush with me everywhere I go. Um, listen, Peeps rides in my carry on bag on all my trips.

• 40:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  I know.

• 40:35Holly Frey?

  He's been all over the world with us.

• 40:39Holly Frey?

  I just love them. Anyway, thank you so much, Sam, for that idea, for reminding me to think about this in a new way. And the answer is hopefully I will meet your six-year-old's history needs, but I don't know when. Sorry, that's not more substantial of an answer. If you would like to write to us about stuffed animals or anything else, you can do that at [email protected]. You can also subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows.

• 41:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 41:29Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 42:00Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 42:34Speaker 06

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• 42:57Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.