David Pocock on Life before politics, gas, gambling and taking on the major parties

David Pocock is a former Wallabies captain turned independent Senator for the ACT. Born on a farm in Zimbabwe, he arrived in Australia at 14 after his family lost their land in the seizures of the late 1990s, found his feet through sport, and went on to represent the Wallabies before swapping the ruck for the red benches of the Senate. I sat down with David for an honest conversation about where he came from, how sport shaped him, and why he decided to take on the major parties as an independent. We speak about: Growing up on a farm in Zimbabwe and the violence that forced his family out Arriving in Australia at 14 and finding belonging through sport The rugby road from Western Force at 17 to captaining the Wallabies Why he ran as an independent and what shocked him most about Parliament The widow's tax and how his team found the flaw the major parties missed His push to rein in gambling advertising and what it is doing to young Australians A 25% gas export tax and the question of who our natural resources really belong to The squeeze on small business and how government procurement could back Aussie firms Why he thinks Parliament needs a lot more long-term thinking See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  David Pocock, World Straight Talk.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Mark.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. How are you going? Good?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  I'm well, thanks.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Plenty of controversy around at the moment and I do want to talk about the widow's tax, or maybe the widow tax, you might have been successful at putting enough pressure on them to sort that one out. And before I talk about, you know, politics, et cetera, I really, if you don't mind, just indulging for a bit, I do want to talk about your background. Like, we'll get to the rugby bit, but I was reading in the brief that you grew up in a farm in Zimbabwe.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  I did. I grew up in Zimbabwe in the nineties and, you know, as looking back, had an amazing childhood. Born in eighty-eight, post-independent Zimbabwe, became independent in nineteen eighty.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  It's not called Zimbabwe now, is it?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  It's still Zimbabwe.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Zimbabwe.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  So it was Rhodesia and then.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Rhodesia/Zimbabwe for, I don't know, nine months or something, and then Zimbabwe. And so that's what I, what I knew. Grew up on a farm, incredibly lucky, looking back, you know, growing up close to nature, a great childhood. And then the late nineties, things just went downhill very quickly. The currency started to slide, the government became unpopular, and they tried to change the constitution and they lost a referendum. And it was kind of this trigger where they just went into survival mode and they basically said, you know, white people and especially white farmers are the reason why Zimbabwe is not doing

• 1:35Speaker 01

  well. And there was this sort of mass land redistribution program. And so very quickly it went from never imagining that my family would leave Zimbabwe and feeling like this is home, this is my country, to, you know, seeing the president on TV saying, you know, white people must leave this country. And yeah, thankfully, my mum was a qualified teacher and we got in here on a skilled, a skilled visa. But yeah, a huge, a huge few years of turmoil.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  How old were you?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I was fourteen when we left, probably eleven or twelve when things started to go badly. We lost our farm. Things actually got really violent.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  I remember that. I remember like people, properties were being raided and, you know, like, you know, farmers or landowners were getting arms and, you know, like, and trying to protect themselves from being invaded by whoever it was who wanted to take over the land. Is that, am I imagining or is that's, that's my recollection?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you had politicians, you had the president really egging people on and it just got out of hand. We had a couple of neighbours murdered.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I remember as a, you know, as a, as a kid, putting my fingers through the bullet holes in, in, you know, the family friend's ute where they'd been ambushed and the son, son and father and son ambushed at night. The son managed to survive, the father was killed. And so that was a kind of fear and anxiety. And ultimately, my folks just decided, boy, this isn't worth staying for. We want, we want to seek opportunity for our kids. They'd grown up through a bush war in the sort of Rhodesian bush war. And I think they just didn't want any more of it and were keen to get out. And so I arrived here just so

• 3:28Speaker 01

  grateful for the opportunity after those few years in Zimbabwe and just, you know, wanting to make the most of every opportunity I got in this, this new country that I, I called home and thought had given us this sort of ticket out.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Why, why, why did they come to Australia?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Uh, we, we had some family in Canada and the US. They'd sort of left five, 10 years before us, but mum and dad just liked it here. They thought, you know, climate was similar, culturally, some similarities, and the Wallabies were going pretty well at the time. I think that was a big, a big part of it.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  And then people who came from Zimbabwe, would, would you have watched footy as a, like a Springboks fan? Would that, because Zimbabwe is a different country, just.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Different country, but you know, the, the Zimbabwe national team wasn't competing at World Cups.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Um, and so basically everyone supported the Springboks.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And, you know, I remember the ninety-nine World Cup, Stephen Larkham slotting that field goal against South Africa for Australia to win and going to my bed and crying, lying in bed, you know, heartbroken that the Springboks were out of the, out of the World Cup. Never imagined that, you know, four years later, I'd be cheering on the Wallabies with their home World Cup.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  I just can't imagine a fourteen-year-old kid, because, you know, you're relatively speaking, mature at that point at fourteen, you know, you know what you're doing. You're certainly aware of what's going on around you. I presume you had brothers and sisters, family. I just can't imagine what, how that would inform you for the future, like seeing or having the anxiety and watching a whole family suffer the same anxiety, friends and drama, as you mentioned, for one of your neighbours. What, what, what sort of effect do you think it had on you when you first came to Australia? Did it make you more diligent

• 5:34Speaker 00

  and want to study hard? Or, and, you know, you left everything behind. So what is the effect on a fourteen-year-old kid coming into this country of that type of, where you left, what you left?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I guess it's only, looking back, you sort of realise what, how you coped with it all. And, you know, my family all coped in very different ways. For me, it was throwing myself into sports and academics and just, you know, as far back as I can remember, I wanted to play the Rugby World Cup. I wanted to play for the Springboks. And then after we moved to Australia, I wanted to play for the, for the Wallabies. And I just threw myself into it. And it became, in hindsight, like a really unhealthy obsession where things had been so out of control. And now all of a sudden, the things I could control were

• 6:27Speaker 01

  my eating and my training. And that, that's what I was going to do. And so I became totally obsessed with training, how I ate, you know, wanting to be the very best rugby player I could be through my late, my late teens. And I guess was fortunate enough to, you know, go to a school that played a lot of rugby and was given those, given those opportunities.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Did you go to rugby school or where'd you go to school? In Brisbane?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Went to church in Brisbane.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  Church in Brisbane, yeah. So they're a rugby union school?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the, one of the, some good years, some bad years.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And when did you, when you arrived there, because that would have been a bit unusual to have a South African kid turn up to the school and who's, you know, come, come from, well, not South African, but a kid who came from Africa, let's call it, Zimbabwe. It would have been pretty unusual. How did you go about making friends and sort of fitting in?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  It was a huge culture shock.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Was it?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  I, I mean.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  You're a farmer, country kid.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Zimbabwe, we were still getting caned at school.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  You, you, you stepped out of line and you were to the headmaster for some.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  A small beating.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Uh, for a few canes and then you were, you were back to class. Australia obviously has a far more casual, laid back approach.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  And it took me a while to sort of realise that actually this wasn't, you know, my classmates just being really disrespectful. This was just the culture. And there were actually, you know, some benefits to it. So it was, it was that adjustment. But yeah, you know, I was the kid with the funny accent. And we got teased a fair bit. So my brothers and I lost it pretty quickly. And by the end of school, I'd have mates saying, where are your parents from? Like where, where, where did they come from? But, I mean, really, for me, sport was, sport was the in. And that was, I think, what, what, what saved me really. You can have the funniest accent, you can, you know, look different. Once you're out on the sporting field, as long as you can contribute and have a crack, you're part of

• 8:28Speaker 01

  the team. And that's, that's something that I'm so grateful for, whether it was rugby or wood polo or whatever sport I was playing. I feel like that's the big thing that really started to break down those barriers. And I started to feel like, yeah, this is, this is home. This is somewhere I can belong. This, this starts to feel like home. So sport was a huge part of, of that for me. And, you know, talking to some blacks Zimbabwean friends who moved over at a very similar time, similar age, you know, they had a very different experience, even through sport. And so I'm very conscious that for someone like me, the way I look.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Basically white with blue.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  You just blend in, right?

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Um, that's not the experience for everyone. So I just want to make, make that clear. But really, it was, it was sport where I started to feel like, yeah, I can, I can make something of myself here.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Does, does that experience inform you in any way today about what racial discrimination might be like? Because, you know, we're going through a lot of issues at the moment. We've got a royal commission into the anti-Semitic occurrences over the last period. And we've got problems with our, you know, like perceived problems, at least that I'm, I'm aware of that in relation to our Muslim community and Muslim friends. Do you get anything informed to you as a result of what you felt when you first came to this country? Do you, do you lean on any of that?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I think the, the biggest thing is comparing.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  My experience, my family's experience with Blacks in Zimbabwe and families that we know.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Very different experience. And, you know, I think that really does say a bit about where we're at. Um. I think in some ways you can say things are improving, but as a country, we've, I think we've got a lot to do to start to judge people simply based on their character.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  And their contribution rather than how they look. Um. And, you know, I think part of that is actually facing our, our history as a country, you know, growing up in Southern Africa, um, everyone knows that's where apartheid was. Uh, a lot of the policies used in apartheid in South Africa were taken from Australia. I think a lot of Australians. Yeah, a lot of Australians wouldn't, wouldn't, uh, know that.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Into the white Australia policy, is that what you mean?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Well, things like, um, so yeah, here in Australia, a lot of cities will have a boundary street, uh, which is where, you know, anyone who wasn't white had to be out of there at night.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Right. Cause there's one just around the corner here.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, the South Africans took that and implemented it. Uh, so, uh, yeah, we, we, we have that as part of our history. And I think that's not to shame Australians today, like, you know, none of us alive now, we're responsible for that. But that is part of our history. And I, I feel like, um, there's a lot of pushback about even talking about that. Cause in, in a way, we're maybe a little bit insecure about who we are. But I think in acknowledging it, it doesn't diminish us. It just says, yeah, this is something that's part of our history. And we've got to be really mindful of it and try and build something, something better together.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  I want to talk to you about your rugby union career, if you don't mind. I, I know you probably think it's boring, but it's not to me, it's not to our audience for sure. We, we definitely want to talk about your political career, but, um, when did you first get, um, put in a position where you thought you might possibly get into the ranks of playing for Australia? Did you play schoolboys, Australian schoolboys and that type of thing?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I did. Um, I mean, I remember as a kid watching the nineteen ninety five Rugby World Cup in South Africa, uh, you know,

• 12:24Speaker 01

  just post apartheid. And obviously Nelson Mandela lifting the, the trophy with Francois Pena. And as a kid thinking, I want to do that one day, that, that is what I want to do. Um, and so really from when we moved to Australia, um, I was watching someone like George Smith and I was like, I'm, I'm, I want to do that one day.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  How good was he?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  So good.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  He wasn't that big either.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Incredible. Um, just a absolute freakishly talented, um, footballer. It was probably really year eleven or twelve where I've started to feel like, well, I've done a lot of work. I feel like I've worked harder than anyone else, um, to put myself in a position to actually do that. And then it was really fortunate, the year I, the year twelve was the Australian Schoolboys tour of the UK. And so, you know, there was a great opportunity to actually play Australian schoolboys. Um, and the Western Force were starting up the next year. And so myself and one or two others were sort of signed on contracts to this new franchise. They needed players.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  The Western Force. Oh, wow.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And one of the, um, one of the, the coaches for the force had been coaching in the Queensland school system. And so obviously seen, seen me play and they put in a good word for me.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  And, and what happened? So you went to the Western Force?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So, yeah, we, I, I moved there, I don't know, it's like first of January, two thousand and.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  How old?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Seventeen.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Whoa. But I guess you just moved from Zimbabwe to Australia at fourteen. So it's not, that's not such a big deal.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's a, you know, it's a, it was, it was great. It was really good for me. It was a huge move. I'd, I'd actually been, I'd actually been offered a, um, more money to stay at the, the Reds. But as part of their academy program, whereas the Western Force said, listen, we don't, we don't have money, but you can come and train with the full squad.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  I just thought an opportunity to actually train with the, with the top squad is, is something that I want to take.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  At seventeen especially.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And it was a real, you know, just tough decision to make. I remember sitting down with, with, with my dad, talking about this decision. And he said, listen, son, you know, often the best decision is the hardest decision and you'll know, you'll know in your gut what you want to do. And, you know, this is up to you and deciding, no, I want to have a, have a crack and move across the country. And, um, it was a rude shock going from, you know, training and playing with, with boys to hardened men and your idols. Uh, like I remember, um, Brendan Cannon was in the, in the team, you know, he was a wallaby at the time.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  And in one of the first sessions, um, calling him Brendan and he turned around and he was like, who the hell called me Brendan?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Um, and so, yeah, I guess you very quickly, um,

• 15:17Speaker 01

  learn and it was, it was, it was a really big step up physically, mentally, uh, but loved it. It was, it was what I wanted and really tried to, um, I don't know, make, make the most of every opportunity to, to learn at that age. Cause, you know, you, you're with your, with your idols and you clearly have so far to go.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Who, who, during that period, before you were playing for Australia, but during the period you're playing for Western Force, who were your idols?

• 15:48Speaker 01

  George Smith.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, he was someone I'd, I'd, I'd watched. I'd really try to study, uh, his game. Uh, but then at the four, she had guys like Nathan Sharp, Brendan Cannon, uh, Matt Guido joined. It was a pretty good team. Uh, they're, they're, they're a bunch of old guys and, you know, a lot of them were really generous with their, with their time. And actually talking to younger guys who, who wanted to learn.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  It's funny, you know, just some of the things you're talking about, being generous with your time, um, uh, you know, doing things that you love, um, but, um,

• 16:24Speaker 00

  you know, the fact that you're able to, you know, feel like you're very Australian at an early age, coming out of a country like Zimbabwe. Um, they seem to tell me a little bit about who you are today as a politician in terms of your job, in terms of your commitment to your job.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it seems like it's, it's like, um,

• 16:48Speaker 00

  sometimes the hard decisions, which your dad said, sometimes the hard decisions are the best ones to make. It seems like when I look at you as an independent in parliament, um, you know, chasing down what you believe in, some hard decisions.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  But they're the best decisions. It's like you don't pull away from, a lot of politicians tend to go with what's popular.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  As opposed to chasing the hard decisions. Um, you play footy bit that way. I mean, when you, when you were playing for Australia, I mean, you played pretty tough. You were.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm feeling it now.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You got a few.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  The old knees and back. I really wish I hadn't have.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  But you did play pretty tough and, uh, and you, you, you mix it up.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Especially against the All Blacks who were at their prime at the time. Um, you didn't sort of pull any punches. I don't mean in that sense, but you, you, you took them on.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love the, I love the physical part of the game.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  But there's more, but I, and with great respect, I wouldn't have played anything like what you have done. But it, but I, what I'm imagining is that it's not just physical to be able to take on the physical game against, you know, the All Blacks. They're one of the greatest countries when it comes to rugby union of all time. Um, and also tough, you have to have a mental condition to do that. It's, there's a mentality associated with being physical.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  You, you can't say, I'm going to go be physical. I don't care. I mean, there are some crazy bastards who are like that. But generally speaking, a normal rational person, um, is not that way. And, you know, you are going to get injured and you're going against tough sides. That takes a mentality. That mentality is a tough mentality. And it's a bit going, going back a little bit. And I'm wondering whether this is your, your background has informed any of this sort of stuff, you know, where you came from, what you saw when you were a kid of fourteen, why you came to Australia, you had to make a new life. You had to become committed, not just obsessed, but mentality is a big part of all that, that process of survival.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Do you think those, those events in that part of your life actually galvanized your

• 18:53Speaker 00

  hard mental state to allow you to become that physical?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, I think your, your

• 19:02Speaker 01

  young years are so formative and actually, you know, in, um,

• 19:09Speaker 01

  In developing who you become. And I think a bunch of things. I mean, one, just growing up on a farm, I think you feel like you're probably, I don't know, slightly tougher than

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  some of the other kids at a young age because you're doing stuff, you're helping, you know, branding cattle and tackling sheep and, you know, that's, that's what you do for fun kind of thing. So from a young age, but then I, I do, I do think, you know, going through what my family went through in Zimbabwe and then moving to Australia, it gave me such a, it was a weird thing because on the one hand, it was like, this is a golden opportunity and I'm going to make the most of it. But I also have a big chunk of guilt because all my classmates back in Zim.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  They're not doing it.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  They, they don't have this opportunity. Um, you know, how, how come my family gets the opportunity and not them? They, they're the ones suffering through hyperinflation and a, you know, terrible government and fuel shortages and everything else that comes with that. And I think it sort of, I don't know, helped develop kind of the real determination to be willing to take on anything. And as to going into politics, um, I mean, I truly love this place. Like this is, this is home for me now. Australia is an incredible country. And I think when you believe your country is great, you want to hold it to a high standard and say like, let's not just be comfortable how it is. Let's, let's, let's continue to

• 20:44Speaker 01

  ensure that is a great country for, for everyone. And yeah, I mean, I think that's part of how I try and approach things.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  But do you think then that you owe something to the country? I mean, do you, do you ever feel, I, I don't mean in a sort of subservient way, but I mean, this country did good for me and could dig with my family. And as you mentioned, some of your friends didn't get that opportunity. Um, do you think that therefore you have to pay it forward, so to speak, as a politician? Now I have to be, I have to do what I firmly believe in, honestly believe in as the right thing to do for this country.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I've felt that since I was 14, when Australia gave my family an opportunity. Um,

• 21:35Speaker 01

  so yeah, I mean, I think, yes, like I've wanted to repay the, I don't know, faith in me and my family. Um, but I guess, you know, the longer I've been here, it truly feels like home and I just want to make things better and actually make our political system work for people and start to think a bit longer term. Like it just seems, when you sit back and you watch the news and everything's a crisis and you realize in politics, like things only become a crisis when you don't deal with them early. Um, and the thing we haven't had is politicians who rather than, as you said, just do the, you know, doing the popular thing or not taking on any hard issue, you do that for too long and then everything

• 22:20Speaker 01

  just becomes a crisis. And then, then you're, you know, really tough situation. So, um, yeah, it's, it's been a, you know, I've been a senator for four years. It's been fascinating. Like I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  Well, why did you do it? What, I mean, what, what was it that got you into politics? Did someone come and tap into your shoulder and say, listen, mate, we reckon you could be a really good politician. Do you want to run for the senate? What happened? Were you studying it?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  No, that's exactly what happened. I finished, um, after the 2019 World Cup, I'd sort of finished with Australian rugby and I was up in Japan, uh, playing for a team up there, the Panasonic Wild Knights, uh, a great team. Robbie Deans was the coach. I was having really enjoying it. And then COVID, um, hit and I came back here and just really knew it was time to move on to something else. I'd always sort of said, once I lost that real drive and enjoyment for it, I wanted to do something else. And, you know, probably could have gone a few more years, but just knew it was the time. And was then working on a conservation and sort of community development project back in Zimbabwe with my, my brother,

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Steve and a group in Canberra who'd set up to try and get a senate, senator, independent senator up, got in touch and said, hey, we're running these consultations and your name keeps coming up. Like, would you consider putting your name forward? And initially I said, I love what you're doing, but absolutely no chance.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  A politician, my god.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Good luck with it.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Um, they came back a few more times and the more I thought about it, it was one of those things where I thought, well, um, I'm frustrated with politics, like so many people. Surely we can do it better. And I don't know about you, but like so many decisions, you get to the point where you're like, I know I'll regret not having a crack. It's very improbable that this happens, but I've just got to actually have a, have a go at this. And so in hindsight, I left it very late. Like I think I announced end of December and, you know, the election could have been anywhere between like February and May. Thank goodness Morrison called it in May. Um, when I actually, so, you know, now I was running, I was like, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  With another party or what, what was the situation?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  As an independent.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  As an independent.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which has never happened in the ACT before, but clearly, you know, we've seen Dr. Helen Haynes, a bunch of other independents, Ali Steggall, a bunch of others, um, win seats. And there was this real sense that, you know, people are frustrated with politics. So anyway, I get back to Australia. Um, I caught up with Jackie Lambie, probably Jan or Feb in Canberra. And she just said, oh mate, good on you, but you're no chance. Like.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  That's exactly how the word she would have used.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  You've left this way too late, but good on you, good luck. And again, very generous with her time, um, gave me a bunch of things to think about and sort of told me a bit of what happens in there. And I think it was just a combination of people, you know, Morrison government was on the nose, the local liberal senator was also on the nose. People didn't feel like he represented what Canberraans want.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  There was a Zed.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Senator Seljana.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was the assistant treasurer or something.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  He was, um.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  He's somewhere under Freidenberg.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  He was one of the ministers for the Pacific and, you know, all the, the whole debacle with the Solomon Islands and, you know, it just really wasn't going well. And so I think it was just this moment in time, combination of factors that Canberraans went, some of, as some of us have heard of this, you know, footy player, let's give him a crack.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  We play for Australia, so that's a, that's a big start.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  It's a foot in the door.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  With, with a bunch of people, not everyone. I think that some people afterwards have said, listen, I didn't vote for you the first time because I thought you were some dumb footy player, but I really like what you're doing now. So I think it kind of worked both ways. Um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of how it happened and how I got into it.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  And, and, and why did you decide independent and not say Labour, Liberal, Nationals or whoever else? Or Teals for that matter. I know the Teals aren't a party, but you know, I mean.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Come on to the.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I just had, I think one of the things that turned me off politics was clearly you see people who go into politics for, with good intentions, for good reasons. And then they have to toe this party line and say things that, you see them on the evening news and you think, you surely don't believe that. Like that's, that's, that's, you're surely just being told to say that. And I just, I don't know, I couldn't do it. I've got no interest in, in doing that. And I think that was the only reason why I thought, oh, this is actually interesting. As independent, I'm only accountable to people in the ACT and I feel aligned on values with, you know, I think the majority of, of Canberraans. There's

• 27:04Speaker 01

  so much that we actually have in common. And being really, you know, frustrated by this kind of growing, uh, left first right politics in Australia, which we seem to be importing from the US a little bit. Actually, we agree on so many things. And, you know, it seems to me that one of the, the big fights is actually, you know, the Australian people against vested interests. Um, let's actually figure that out before we go down all these rabbit holes of, of, you know, culture wars and, and, and things that I think often are more a distraction from the issue. And so I thought, well, as an independent, you can actually, you know, talk to people and say what you think and.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Especially in the senate.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Change your mind and.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  Especially in the senate because you have a greater voice in the senate because everything's got to get through there at some stage.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, and, you know, it was a, it was, gee, it was a steep learning curve. The way the numbers, um, were after that 2022 election, the government needed, uh, the Greens plus one initially and then, then two, um, independents. Uh, and so, you know, the government constantly wanted myself or Jackie Lambie's vote. And so you're having to dive into all sorts of parts of, um, legislation that you, you know, never really thought about before, but it's fascinating. Like, you, you go deep into anything. It's, it's interesting. Once you start to meet the different people involved, how it affects things, really trying to weigh things up and then taking that back to Canberra and saying, hey, these are, this is the legislation.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  These are the good bits. These are the bad bits. These are the trade offs. Uh, so yeah.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  I've often wondered if you could help me out here, but like, how do you reconcile, when you're a politician, how do politicians reconcile? And maybe the answer's pretty obvious, but party ideology as opposed to the ideology of the person who's been voted for. In other words, you stand in a particular seat in Canberra, your constituencies vote you in based on what they consider to be your ideology as you have expressed it to them and all the functions and things you do. Um, then let's say, for example, you then join on a Labour Party or let's say you're a Labour Senator, you're on their ticket. Um.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  They, the Labour Party itself has an ideology.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Not from anyone, not, not from anyone particular individual, but it has an ideology. Um, how, how do politicians deal with that? Like if something, you, you just mentioned, you just got to toe the party line. Labour, yes, you can't get and say, nobody in Labour ever argues against what the PM has said. It's like, if you, you know, you, you sort of gather the circle, the, uh, the wagons around. And that's it, you, it's unbreakable. Liberal, you know, they sort of bust out all the time and it doesn't look good and they get punished. Because it looks like they're arguing with each other. Labour's at least smart, it doesn't look that way, it looks like they're solid on everything.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  But it's all about an ideology that gets sold to you, not sold to you, but expressed to you from somebody. And is it the Prime Minister who does it? Or is it, I mean, you must have observed this at least, or is it somebody behind the scenes who none of us get to talk to? Or vote for? Because with you, I know your ideology, I'm voting for you, I know exactly what I'm getting.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  When I'm voting for Labour, I'm not necessarily.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  I know what you're saying, I, I don't really know. I guess it comes down to the, the culture of a party and, you know, what is culture? How does that, that, um, evolve? But it is, it is a strange thing and, you know, this sort of party discipline. If you look across the world, um, Australia is like a bit of an outlier, you know? In, in the US, yes, you're part of a, a party, but, you know, those, those members and senators are often just voting how they think is best for their, their, you know, district or their state. Whereas here in Australia, it's very much party. And, you know, that's not how the first parliament operated in Australia.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Like there were a heap of independents, um, and people were just elected to represent their electorates, their state, uh, and come together and, you know, um, govern and, and, and make laws and, and deal with issues. But it has become this entrenched party system where the parties say minority government would be an absolute disaster. Cause it would be chaos. But if you look at a bunch of the Nordic countries, you know, they've had minority government for a very long time. And it actually means that you have to negotiate. And that's the thing I saw in the, in the Senate, um, in the last term, was when the government had to negotiate with multiple people. Yes, it was slower, I'm sure it was a massive hassle for them, right?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Um, uh, messier, but I really think that we ultimately got better legislation. Uh, because as an independent, I'm not just listening to one group, I want, I want to hear everyone's opinion. And, you know, the territories only get two senators, states get 12. I'm very aware that there are a bunch of Camberans who don't like me, there's a bunch who probably hate my guts. I represent them and I want to hear those views and actually balance that sort of broad perspective of views. And then really have to say, well, I, I can see those different perspectives, but I actually really think like this is the best decision. And I'm going to have to be able to front up to, to people who are going to be disappointed. Uh, and I think that's when you, amending bills in that way, you get better legislation.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  So I don't really know how they, how they do it. Um, you know, I think there's different philosophies there, Labour will, as you say, say like we're stronger when we're all together. Um, and I think the Prime Minister, uh, clearly from what I've seen, has been crushing, um, dissent.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Um, totally.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Within, within the party. The libs, yeah, it can be messier, but I think it can actually be a strength when you have different people in a party, um, voicing different views from different parts of the community. People can say, well, I actually agree with everything the party does, but I really like that, that person and they do some good, good stuff on, on this and that. And more and more, I think people want more collaboration and just good faith work amongst parties and, you know, senators and members. And that's the thing, yeah, one of the things I love about being an independent is I can do that, I can work with.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Well, you're the person, you're the person who can show the dissent or a different idea. Cause what's interesting, a good example of all this is, you know, and this is one of the places I wanted to go to, but, um, and you've done a lot of really good work in this regard, but is the capital gains tax. Um, once the capital gains tax was announced, it looked like to me that every single Labour person was issued a little note. And this is what you say, uh, you, you, it doesn't matter what the question is, this is what you say. And it's all about intergenerational inequity, blah, blah, blah, blah. By the way, it's not a new term, I remember, um, Costello using that in 2005, but it doesn't matter. Um, and then it was up to independents or people like you, you talked about the widow tax or let's call it the divorcee tax as well.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Like it's a, it's a unintended, I think, I think from Treasury's point of view, not necessarily the treasurer, because he probably didn't think about it, but the Treasury's point of view, an unintended consequence. Cause complicated stuff like that always has unintended consequences. But it must have taken someone like you, you must have gone and read the legislation to work that out. You, you read through all the stuff.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, my team had looked at it and.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Presented to you.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Saw it and said, hang on, this is, this is an issue.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  And the widow's tax is a good example, whereas in a major party, which is, I agree, is a problem, is that they just toe the line. No one actually critically examines the legislation and says, well, listen, elbow, I'm in your party, but mate, I think we could have got this bit wrong. Why don't we just say we got that wrong and we'll fix it?

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  You know, like, whereas it, it needs independence to say that. Do you feel as though that's sort of your job to pick the exceptions out in stuff that gets presented to you?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, part of it, I mean, my commitment to people in the ACT is that I'll engage in good faith on all legislation, doesn't matter who it's come from.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  What does that mean then, David? Do you engage with your constituency as well?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so be, you know, one, just be open to ideas rather than just shutting stuff down before you even read it.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And then really diving into the detail, you know, it was someone in my team who actually read that and went, oh, this could be really a problem for divorcees if, or if your, if your partner dies. The government's saying that they're grandfathering, but this will have a really, really big impact on, on some people. And so, so raising that and then actually engaging with the different groups that are affected. Um, the experts in the space, you know, different peak bodies, and then ultimately talking to Camberans and saying, hey, what do you think about this? And, you know, on the government's changes, um, I'd been making the case for, for changes to, um, property, uh, tax concessions at the last two elections.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  You've been talking about negative gearing capital gains tax discounts.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I truly think that we have to treat housing more as something that we, we truly want to be accessible and affordable, rather than as an investment vehicle. And yeah, sure, people have made a lot of money out of housing, but at the expense of what? You know, we now have such unaffordable housing, so many people locked out of the markets. And so I, I really take my hat off to the treasurer for getting those changes, um, done. I don't feel like the case had been made to broaden that across everything and then to, then to chuck in, you know, trusts that are being used by small businesses. There's a, there's so much to unpack there.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  And, you know, that's where we really dove into the detail, identified the widow's tax, pushed hard, worked with the coalition to sort of really raise the, um, the profile of that. And clearly it's not the intention of legislation, the government's now said that they're going to fix it, which is.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Fix widow's tax, the so-called widow's tax. But just so for our audience, so we know, as they know what we're talking about, cause not everyone's on to it. But we're talking about if you and your husband buy something together, a husband and wife or whatever the case, partners.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  And one partner dies, then.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Or you get divorced.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Or get divorced.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Um, the, what was grandfathered before, under the announcement in the budget whereby, you know, you were able to take advantage, previously take advantage of the capital gains tax discount. You only pay tax on 50% of the profit, that was grandfathered in the budget. As a result of that individual dying or divorce happening, um, you now own the whole property. You lose that grandfathering status and as a result of that, uh, that property now is only going to get indexation.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  I, in terms of the capital gains tax ultimate profit that you pay on the, on the, on the sale. And, uh, so what you've been really very stoic about, but also very, been a lot of volume coming from David Pocock about this, a lot of volume, is, um, talking about it, making that, building an exception into the legislation. To pull that, what seems to be unfairness out.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Well, just to clarify, that is, that is clearly not the intention of grandfathering arrangements.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  No.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  The government has said, um, you made these investments under the current rules, we're going to honor that.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  For, for, you know, for new, uh, investments, there will be a different, different rules. You won't get the benefits if you invest in the existing market, if you, it's a new build, you do get them. Uh, the, the, the concern I raise is this will mostly impact women.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  On average, they have less super than us men when they retire and they live longer than us on average.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Men die, we all die before them.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, you know, the government said, yep, we'll fix this. Uh, last week I had a, a woman in her forties come to my office and say, um, you know, uh, survivor of family domestic violence, getting a divorce. And the lender has said, uh, you did have pre-approved finance so that you can take over the, the property after your settlement. But based on the, the law changes, we're, we're taking that away now. And so there's a real urgency and you just see the impact.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  So she couldn't bid at a property at an auction or something like that?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  No, so she couldn't get the investment property that her and her, um, current partner, um, had in a joint name. That couldn't be transferred to her because the bank said, well, under the current.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  I can't lend you the money.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Laws, I can't lend you the money because you don't get, um, you can't negatively gear it.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Was she going to lose her deposit? Had she, had she already paid a deposit?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  I'm not actually sure, but probably.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  But still unfair.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  It's unfair and it's not, it's not the intention of the, the laws. And so I guess it, you know, highlights a couple of things, these laws were really rushed through parliament, I think for political reasons.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  It seems that way, doesn't it?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Because they were under pressure, you, you get that, they just want it done with. Uh, my argument is that, um, if you really believe in something, then make the case and put it through a senate committee that's actually going to find these things. You can draft amendments, you can sort it out.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  But didn't they do that? They did, didn't they have a senate inquiry into the legislation?

• 40:15Speaker 01

  We had like a day, it was so, it was so short.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  That's, uh, ridiculous.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  So, you know, they, but Mark, they've said they're going to fix it. My argument now is fix it quickly because there's no doubt more people out there in this situation. And they need certainty, lenders need certainty, lenders obviously just gonna land according to the floors.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. No, the lenders, and by the way, you're right, the lenders will not lend the money under the current legislation unless it gets amended and amended immediately. So what do you think about when government says to you, or I don't know, the House of Reps, it went through, the whole thing went through. No, this, this was not, I don't remember this being discussed when it went through the lower house.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  No, it was in the Senate. I mean.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  It's only, only got discussed in the Senate.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Why, why doesn't anyone discuss in the lower house?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Well, again, you know, the House, the way it's been for a long time is that the one party has the majority in the House. And when you control the House or the Senate, you can just do whatever you want.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  So they got, but they got the Greens on side.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Had the Greens on side, but they didn't need them, they didn't need them in the House. Um, and so, you know, the government can introduce a bill in the morning and pass it in the afternoon in the House. Because they can do whatever they want. They can suspend standing orders and say, right, we're dealing with this bill, put it to a vote. People can try and jump up and down. They really can't do anything.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Cause it gets voted no matter what.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  In the Senate, since um, the Howard government's last term, no government has had a majority. And I think it's a great check on, on power. And so really the Senate is where a lot of scrutiny happens. There's a lot of good work that gets missed in the Senate. I think in politics generally, you know, people see a clip from Question Time on the news, it's disgraceful, you know, it is just.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  For the way they rib each other.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  They were just yelling at each other, no one answering a question, uh, you know, politicians will say, well, it's theatre. I don't know, I don't know how useful it is, but actually there's a lot of good faith work that happens in the Senate on Senate committees. You know, there's all these rolling inquiries into different things. And then when legislation comes through, generally it'll get referred to a Senate inquiry, whereas a senator, you can turn up, you can ask questions of the department of stakeholders of, of anyone. And often that's where all these little issues and oversights and, you know, errors in how things have been drafted get found and hopefully fixed.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  It was just prior to you coming on, I heard, I, I read something that the government's actually sort of um, pretty much caved into your pressure. And that they're looking at bringing forward the amendments to the widow's tax, so called.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  The exceptions.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there's broad support, the, you know, the coalition want this fixed as soon as possible. The Greens want it fixed, Pauline Hanson wants it fixed. So, you know, I think if, if the government does it, the Senate will actually look to try and do something without, without the government, but I assume the government will really just fix it quickly.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  So I, I'd like to move just on to something else, cause it's, it's an important one, I think, and it's your position on gambling. Um, you've been pretty strong on, um, you know, gambling in Australia, but what, what, someone who's played a lot of sport where gambling was a, you know, has been a big sponsor of for a long time, particularly on, on, on TV, on television, when you're on jerseys, on TV, when you're watching it, et cetera, you know, a lot of the TV stations rely upon gambling institutions to be the big advertisers during those programs. Um, what's your position on gambling now? And in particular, maybe even in particular relative to sport, given someone has come out of the sport environment. What, what's Dave Pocock's position?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  It's been a real eye opener when you start to look at the, the research and then talk to people who've been impacted by gambling addiction.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  We're the biggest losers in the world per capita.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  Our loss rate in Australia is the biggest in the world.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  We lose more than any other country.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  So the gambling companies make more money, basically, the hold.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  But they call the hold.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  We're losing thirty two billion dollars a year. Yes, a big chunk of that's pokies and that's, you know, state and territory legislation. I think there's a huge amount of work to do there to actually better look after um, people in our communities. Um, but when it comes to um, I guess, online gambling, sports betting, uh, it's the fastest growing in terms of losses and ads are everywhere. And, you know, they advertise because it works. If you, three out of four young Australians now think that betting is just a normal part of enjoying sport. And, you know, as a former professional athlete, I remember as, as a kid, how much I loved rugby.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  I'd never seen a gambling ad. It never entered my mind. I, I loved, I loved rugby for what it was to me, what it represented to me, the, you know, how it made me feel. Um, and I think more and more, it's, it's about the odds, it's about, um, you know, placing a bet. And so we're normalizing gambling. No one's saying that we should make gambling illegal. If you wanna have a punt and you're over eighteen, go for it. But I have a real problem to just how saturated um, everything has become in gambling ads and the impact that's having on, on people and families and.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  What, what would you say though to say, I don't know, one of the TV stations who might be televising the footy and says, look, we've got to pay a huge amount of broadcasting rights to Peter Velandis.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  At the NRL. And in order for us to get our money back, we have to, obviously we have to advertise during prime time. And the biggest advertisers are, I don't know, I don't even know the names of the betting companies, but of the betting companies. Um, and we've got to get a return on our five point five billion dollars that we promised um, NRL over the next, uh, I think it's a ten year deal or whatever it is. Um, what do you say to them? And when they, if they come down to Canberra and they'll come and see you, they'll, they'll lobby you, I guess. And they, so let's go see David Pocock, we need to talk to him about it, cause you know, we want this legislation maybe to be amended or changed or blocked in Senate. What, what do you say? And how do you approach that?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  So if you look at their revenue, I think it's just, just under ten percent of their ad revenue comes from gambling companies. By far the, the biggest um, advertisers are the, the big retailers, your Harvey Normans, your, you know, other ones, but clearly.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Kentucky Fried, et cetera.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Ten percent is not huge, but it's meaningful. The thing I would have loved to have seen is, is a bit of imagination from the government to actually say, okay, this is clearly a problem. How do we actually provide some sort of transition package to free to air television? To make sure that everyone wants a thriving free to air television sector. It's something that you need in a healthy democracy. You need that access to, to news and content. Um, you know, a one percent, um, you know, levy on bets placed in this country would more than cover that. And so I'm really sympathetic to their argument. Yes, times are, times are tough for.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  What, what's a one percent levy mean? You mean you tax the, you tax the gambling company, like, like a gross tax, a tax of gross?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, one percent, you know, gross tax on, on gambling in this country. And you could more than fund the loss revenue for TV for the next decade, say, okay, we're gonna give you ten years worth of certainty. And in that time, go fund other, go fund other advertisers. I'm sure they could do that. And they'd probably, they probably love that, right? They're not having to deal with all the complaints about gambling ads from, from families. Um, and you could also fund things like community sport. Uh, I really take exception to um, some of the biggest sports in this country who now don't just accept um, gambling advertising, they're actually getting a kickback. So they're getting a cut of bets placed on, say, the NRL and the AFL. So they've integrated gambling into their business model essentially.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  And I think that creates really perverse outcomes where you have the heads of these sports essentially lobbying on behalf of gambling companies. Cause they're now getting a cut of it. But, you know, eighty percent of their fans don't like it. They don't want to be part of their, their sport. And so the Murphy Report is, is something a lot of people would have heard of a few, three years ago now, a lower house committee. So you've got, you know, Labour, Libs, independents, looked at the harms of online gambling. And they recommended a phased inbound of all gambling ads over three years, a banning on inducements, setting up a national regulator, cause it's,

• 49:06Speaker 01

  you know, all these gambling companies are currently set up in the NT for tax reasons.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  And just the loosest regulation. So, you know, think of how big the gambling industry is. And as far as we know, the NT regulator has no full time staff.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Serious?

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yes. So, very loose. So, you know, that, that committee was unanimous, which is very rare in politics. Like it, that is a big thing to get um, every party to say, yeah, this is the way we're gonna fix this issue. And so I just keep going back to that and saying, one of the things it said is we have to break this link between gambling and sport. Because we risk um, forgetting what sport's actually for in this country and just turning it into a way to flog gambling products. So I, I totally get the argument around revenue from TV. Um, you know, some of the, I'm not as sympathetic to, to some of the sports. I think if they wanted to prioritise

• 50:03Speaker 01

  community sport and women's sport, they could do that. Um, but I, I, I get the argument from TV and I think there's ways to, ways to solve that. Unfortunately, what we've seen from particularly the Prime Minister, and maybe this comes back to your, what we were talking about earlier with this sort of party discipline. Um, the PM's so out of step with what I've heard from people in the Labour Party. And certainly what I've heard from people who'll come up to me and be like, I'm a Labour member. Keep pushing them hard on gambling, you know, they're, they're not doing the right thing. He's essentially made this call that three gambling ads per hour is fine for kids to watch. No one else seems to think that's okay. The only, we just had this two day inquiry, the only other um, place that's ever been said

• 50:48Speaker 01

  is straight from the, the peak lobby for, for the gambling companies. And so unfortunately, you know, the PM's decided he's not gonna implement evidence based policy and everyone's kind of in the Labour Party's falling in behind him in a way. But there's deep concerns, obviously amongst independents, but you know, I think the coalition is now also keen to see them go, go further. And find ways to, to sort of shore up revenue for, for free TV.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  You've also been talking, and this is a very interesting one, um, considering, you know, what's going on in the world at the moment, um, a gas tax.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  You've been pretty strong in that. Uh, gas and resources and multinational companies, um, twenty five percent tax on gas exports. Is that right?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  For me, it comes back to the question, what are our natural resources for?

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I wanna get into that philosophical position, so.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  And who do they, yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Who do they belong to?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Who do they belong to?

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Well, who do that, who do you think they belong to? Or who do you, what, your constituency, who, what do they think?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  I, I think, and most people I speak to, believe that they belong to all of us. They belong to the nation. And.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  The way that we've treated them is not like we truly believe they belong to us. We've allowed big multinationals to export them, make extraordinary profits, and leave us with a trillion dollars of national debt where we look at Norway and they've got a $3 trillion sovereign wealth fund.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  And but they've nationalized a lot of their assets, so.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  So they've got, yeah, they had the foresight back in the, you know, 60s to say, yeah, we're going to take some government ownership. We're actually going to invest in this industry. We haven't done that. Um, yes, it's different, but the principle is the same. And, you know, given that, my understanding is of all the gas that's been exported from this country, just over 50% has been totally royalty free so far. And so I really see a 25% gas export tax as, one, a way to get a fair return on the export of Australian gas.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Two, very hard to game. You know, a lot of these companies, because they're multinationals, are very good at profit shifting. And, you know, selling to a parent company who then on sells or claiming all sorts of deductions, payments and loans to other entities that reduce their taxable income. So it's hard to game. And thirdly, it would reduce the price of gas in this country. One of the biggest gas exporters in the world, and people will see in the news every six months or so, oh, we've got a gas shortage.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, not in Australia, but the rest of the country, yes.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. We don't have a gas, you know, um, gas supply problem. We've got a gas export problem. We just export so much of the stuff that we don't have enough here. And we haven't had the foresight, as you said, WA, you know, uh, West Coast Reservation Policy, we haven't had that leadership over the last 20 years here on the East Coast. So we're paying international prices for our own gas. That means that electricity is more expensive because gas is, you know, a small but really important component of the firming.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  When there's, when there's not enough, they fire up the gas.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  To produce electricity, yes.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Plants. And so a 25% gas export tax would reduce the price of gas for Aussie manufacturers, businesses, households. I think that's a great thing. And it would bring down the cost of electricity, which, you know, I talked to every small business I talk to is saying, you know, price of, price of electricity is a real factor for us.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  And when it comes to small business, um, and I don't know if you're talking to them outside of your state or your, outside of your territory, the ACT I'm talking about. But small businesses are doing it tough in Australia right now. I mean, I don't care who I talk to, but everyone's telling me the same stuff. And it is, and it's really around what started to be now that their customers are buying less because everybody's being, the cost of living for everybody's has gone up. But it's, but it was up until about two, three months ago, mostly around my costs. My costs of running my business, my small business had just kept going up and up and up and up and haven't stopped.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  What is someone like, where can someone like you, an independent in the Senate, have, have a, a positive impact on helping out small business owners in this country?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  I mean, being based in the ACT in Canberra, um, I think is a huge advantage because you, you get to not only speak to constituents, but then also a lot of the peak bodies are spending a lot of time in Parliament House.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  Cosbauer, for example?

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Cosbauer. So, you know, it was, was at an event, um, this morning, um, I think one of the things we don't talk about enough is that in times like this, small business owners are getting smashed twice. You know, they're Australians who have families and have costs and their mortgage has gone up, um, their petrol's gone up. And then in their small business, their inputs have gone up and they're dealing with other Australians whose costs have gone up and so they want to buy less.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And so they're in this, this position where.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  It's a squeeze.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Total squeeze, where they desperately not wanting to pass on costs. But, you know, a lot of them are not getting much out of their business. Um, and so they have to put up those, those costs. And so it has been an incredibly tough, tough time for them. The things that my team and I've really focused on over the last, um, four years, a big one has been around procurement.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  It's, doesn't sound very sexy to most people.

• 56:21Speaker 00

  Do you mean government procurement?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, government procurement. So the government spends, you know, 70 to $100 billion every year.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  On supply chains, like getting someone to, I don't know, deliver coffee cups or something like, whatever it is.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Everything. So from big defence projects to IT services, cybersecurity, AI to coffee cups and stationery. And, you know, one, one we've been dealing with recently is, is desks.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Um, you know, more and more of these, um, uh, companies that get, um, contracts to outfit, to do the fit outs for government officers, importing desks from, I suppose, I imagine China.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  All sorts of stuff in it and undercutting the Australians. So, you know, one example, so procurement really trying to have the government have a lens over their procurement where they're, they're backing Australian companies. The government's whole focus has been on, are you an Australian company? And up till July last year, the only test of being an Australian company was, do you have an ABN? I mean, yeah, every company that operates in this country has an ABN.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  You can't operate with that one.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  But you don't have to be Australian.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so finally, they've actually put some more detail around what is an Australian company in terms of, you know, 51%, you know, based here, et cetera. One of the things I've been pushing them hard on is rather than just going, well, what's the best value for money? What's the retained economic benefit? Because clearly if you're, if you're, um, procuring something from a small business that's based, you know, in Canberra or Sydney, all their staff live here, uh, they're paying taxes here, they're doing, you know, probably R and D here, they're backing other businesses. There's a huge amount of retained economic benefit. Then if I give that to a multinational company that may have a few staff here, but profits are shipped overseas.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, there's a genuine opportunity there. And I hear from so many Australian businesses who tell me, um, it's actually easier to sell to the Canadian government or the UK government than the Australian government.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  That's a huge problem. And, you know, to the government's credit, Minister Katie Gallagher has been working on this. They're making some changes. I still just think there's so much opportunity there for small business in this country to really try and, um, one, give them a foot in the door, but then really grow these businesses. Like, that's a huge, uh, chunk of money. One of the other, um, things, again, not that, um, probably not that sexy, but is the definition of Australian business. There's like 15 or 20 different definitions.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  It's so confusing for companies to navigate. And so really trying to simplify things around definitions, things around the award system. You know, I sit at Senate estimates, which is when all the departments appear before the Senate and you get to ask them questions. You know, if the Department of Workplace Relations is having payroll issues, they're underpaying people, overpaying people, it's this big debacle, then they're paying external contractors, consultants to come in and fix the issue. Like, how are you meant to do it as a small business?

• 59:30Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  If you don't have a HR team and a, you know, you're doing it yourself. And so I think simplicity of, of the awards, um, we hear a lot of talk about cutting red tape.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  I'd love to see us actually factoring small businesses into regulation and laws before we make them and saying, you know, this regulation makes sense, but if you're a small business, you probably don't have the resources to comply. So let's find a different way to do that. And that was, you know, during the industrial relations reform in the last parliament. That was a, a big sort of part of what I tried to push is to actually cut out a whole bunch of small businesses from some of the other regulations that were, were coming in. Um.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Do you think we're becoming a regulated, David? Do you think, I mean, like, I, I understand the, the, the, the thought process and the, the hypothesis be around a regulation, like, you know, know your client, you know, all this, um, uh, AMF, anti-money laundering stuff. Like, I honestly, I get it. I get it. A hundred percent get it. But, but with it comes a whole ton of regulatory stuff and then a whole ton of, uh, compliance things you have to do. And it just makes a lot of people's margins, um, diminish. And all, the only people that can sort of survive in those environments, and I'm one of them who's fortunate enough to be able to, is that we, we outsurvive all the smaller competitors and they just all disappear. And as a result of that, we just get bigger and bigger and bigger.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  And that allows us to dictate pricing and it gives us more power. And the regulatory environment, which is well intended. Um. Actually has this negative effect on, you know, proper competition.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  What do you think about that?

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  The thing I hear from small businesses is that it's death by a thousand cuts.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  You know, every one little added thing, whether it's, you know, anti-money laundering checks or whatever, in and of itself is fine, but then you start to layer them up, becomes a very big problem.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  A good example is that, um, if I pay you weekly, now I gotta, I gotta take your super out weekly. I mean, I, I get it because some people are probably robbing the system and not doing it for six months or a year or whatever, or never. Um, but most businesses are pretty good, but they used to have to do it quarterly. Um, but now weekly, that's just a,

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, payday, payday super.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  It's a big deal.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  It's a big, it's a big change and.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Administratively.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yes. And, you know, I think that's, in my experience, often not a big enough consideration when these sorts of things are going through is what is the actual impact on small business? And there seems to be an attitude, well, they just need to wear this.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Um, whereas I think it's something we should be weighing up. I'm, I'm not one of these people that, that is out there just bashing all regulation. I think in, in some ways, we totally under-regulate some industries in this country. Um, I mean, you take airlines, for example, this is a highly concentrated market, basically a duopoly.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Totally duopoly.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  And it's kind of this just hands off. We'll allow them to give us, you know, rubbish customer service. Um, you know, uh, we had Jetstar's thing of charging people to put a.

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  Luggage up the top.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Over.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  That was today and now, yeah, I saw that.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  And so there's, you know.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Seventy five dollars.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  There's a real hesitancy to actually put, I think, reasonable expectations around serving your customer and providing good service in markets that are very concentrated. We don't have the competition that would usually keep those things in check. And then a heap of regulation on small businesses, uh, where you say, well, they don't actually have the same resources. And, you know, it is, it is a lot more competitive. So I, I really do think it is a balancing act. The government, you know, again, to Jim Chalmers' credit, he's talked a lot about trying to reduce some of the regulatory burden.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  But it's coming out of that other department. So that's the problem.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  I mean, he's a treasurer, but it's coming out.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It all adds up.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  And, and I'll, I'll give you one example, uh, which is, I found very interesting the other day. Someone said to me the other day, when they're talking about this payday, um, super, they said to me, basically, super is a tax on a business. A business has to pay this superannuation for the, the worker, which is fine. Everybody's happy with it, but it basically is a tax. I'm collecting tax for the government, putting it away for into, into a, you know, industry fund or wherever it goes, um, to make sure that when that person retires, that person is properly superannuated on the day of the 265. So the government doesn't have to put their hand in their pocket. So basically I'm collecting your tax for you. But not only do I have to collect the tax for you, I have to, um, now account for it.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  And I used to be able to do it quarterly. Now I've got to do it weekly. So I'm now actually become a tax agent for the government.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  The same as collecting the GST. I'm collecting your tax. And it's like an outsourcing by government to small business owners. I, I, I'm not blowing up about the GST. I'm not blowing up about superannuation as a concept. I, I get it. It makes sense. But what I do find difficult is the government has sort of outsourced that to small business owners and they got to wear the administrative cost. And there is a lot. I mean, like you've got to employ a bookkeeper, you've got to have an accountant, you've got to have your banking. Now, what, what happens if people don't pay me for three months? I'm one of those businesses of, I've had, I've had to compete with the bigger business. So I might give you 90 day terms.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Um, but I've got to, but I've got to pay my wages now and I've, so I've got to fund this. So now I've got to have relationships with my bank. I'll probably have to borrow money to fund that process.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  Um, th- these things, where, where, where does this get debated?

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  There is, there is some debate over it, you know, someone like Allegra Spender has been pushing really hard.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  She's been doing a good job.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Again, through government procurement, that people, you know, these big firms that pick up big contracts, who then subcontract part of it, they have to actually pay small businesses within 30 days. That seems very reasonable if they're copping the money from the government.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, that's one tiny part of that. Um, I do think there's opportunity for the government to have more incentives to actually help small businesses invest in the technology that can help with some of these problems. Clearly we're at this point in time with AI where there, there are opportunities. Um, but all of these things have upfront costs for capital costs for, for businesses to upgrade IT systems, et cetera. And I think this is an area where I just haven't seen enough innovation and forward thinking where there's, um, incentives. I know that, you know, a couple of years ago it was farcical. There was an incentive, um, for digitization. And it was legislated, I think, like a few days or a week before it expired.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And you're like, you're not serious about helping small businesses.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  Was that, was that under Morrison? Was that during, was that about 2018? Do that? No, you weren't in 19.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Twenty two or three. Uh, I think it was one of like a legacy program that had rolled over a few times, but yeah, I, I, you know.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  Cause I was a chair of the, um, the inquiry into digitalization of Australian businesses.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:06:36Speaker 00

  When Freidenberg was around, I, I handed up my report and we got some budget allocation. Um, but then it went back to the Department of Industry, which I think Synodinus might have been, Arthur might have been around those days. I can't remember. As the minister and, but then it got lost and I never saw the report result in anything. Maybe it got resurrected a couple of years later.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  I mean, how do you, how do you think we should be balancing those things where, you know, there's an expectation from Australians or consumers? Um, but then regulation gets made that small businesses have to comply with.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  This might sound a bit radical, David, but like, you know what I'd love to see? I'd love to see, um, a shadow

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  parliament or shadow, not senator or lower house, but like some other thing where, where all the issues were listed on a website somewhere and you, all of us got an allocation of a number, a number allocated to us or some, some sort of PIN, um, which

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  but, but I don't, I only I knew. And then I knew it because I'm in the ward of so and so, and, um, and now I live in this house and that's my address and that's where I'm registered on an electoral commission, uh, role. And that I could vote on it.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  And now I don't have to vote on it, but I can vote on every issue that you guys talk about. So every issue you guys talk about gets posted onto this page.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  That it's sort of like a, a digital parliament that all of us get to see.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a direct, direct democracy.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, a proper democracy.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  And, uh, where like the, the old days, original days, the democracy was done in a pit and everything was argued every day. And if you had an interest in it, you turned up, you know, Socratic style. You weren't there, Socrates.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Argument.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  And you made your argument. If you're not, if you don't go there and you, you've got nothing to complain about. So I'd like to put, uh, the power back in our hands so we have nothing to complain about. But if we have something we feel really strongly about, then we have the opportunity to go and talk about it or not talk about it, but say something.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  And this all gets, you can use AI to collate everything. It could all then go back to the, um, Senate Inquiry Committee that's involved. It could go back to the minister, it could go back to whoever it is, and then you have to answer it.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  You have to resolve. I'd love to see, uh, I'd like to see a proper form of democracy. Cause the problem is today is that I'll vote for you and your seat in Canberra and, um, on the today's issues and the current issues. And then one year later, a whole set of new issues comes up that I never, ever, ever thought it would ever happen. And, uh, you know, I can't see into the future, nor can you. And then, uh, but because I voted for you, you've got my mandate, you're now influencing the outcome of this new set of issues, which I've never even thought about.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  And it's, and I think democracy, if we've got a proper democracy, I don't think anyone in the world does this, but if we had a proper democracy, we should at least maybe start, and you could develop this over time, but just make this available because everyone's on the internet all day. I mean, it'd be great if I was getting pinged. I might just say, look, these are 10 things I'm interested in.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  I'm interested in gambling, gas tax and, um, immigration, I'm just making things up. Um, anything that comes up on this page, I want to know about.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  And, uh, I want the opportunity to say something about it and you, you hold it to a vote.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Yeah. I mean, I think finding ways to get more people in.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  That's just an idea.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Great thing. Because, I mean, the, the thing, one of the things I'm, I'm concerned about, um, is this sort of polarization where we start to see people just fall into different camps and.

• 1:10:15Speaker 00

  Well, division.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Division.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. You either vote with me or you're against me.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, you know, I think one, one of the things that so many of us cherish as Australians is that we're firstly Australian and then some distance down there, we have a political, you know, leaning or a party or an independent or.

• 1:10:36Speaker 00

  There is some difference down there, but it's largely we're all together.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  And the thing, the thing I've seen when you can actually get people together and talk about things is that we agree on so much stuff.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's, there's disagreement and those differences are really important, but there is so much that we actually agree on. And I think we kind of lose that in our current, um, political debate where things are so fraught. And people are picking one or two wedge issues to just sort of bash each other rather than saying, well, actually we, we all largely agree on where we want to go to. We may have different ways of getting there. And then let's, let's work that out. Like how, how do we balance some of those competing, uh, priorities? And I think, yeah, if you had more, more Australians feeling like they had a bit more of a stake in the, in the game.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I guess as an independent, that's a big part of what I try and do is say, I work for you. Like I, I really view that as my job. I work for people in the.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  That, that's an important, that's a really, really important, um, differentiator, David. Um.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  Do you think the major parties work for the party or they work for the people that voted them into the, that representing that particular ward, wherever it is that they come from? Cause you, you, you made your position clear, but where do you think the major party are?

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  I don't pretend to understand the, the complexity of coming up through a party. From what I've seen, there are some exceptional, exceptional humans in there who care deeply, who, who, who love this place, are in there for the right reasons, want to make a difference.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  And often hamstrung by the party line. I think some would say, well, that's just one of the trade offs. But then when you're in government, you can actually do, do good things. And you know, sure, I think people can, can debate that. But I think it's a real mix of people who clearly want to make a difference and want to stand up on issues and others who sort of play the, play the game, are, are, are good at, again, I don't really know how it works, like getting the numbers, I guess, to get into a position to be elected and then once you're in the party and, and yeah, it didn't take, take me long to realise that this place isn't a meritocracy.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  That's actually not how, how things work in here. And, you know, I think naively from, coming from sport, I thought like everyone on the same team is like, yeah, together. You've got differences, but like, we're in this together.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  And then you realise like, you know, within the parties, people, there's a bunch of people who don't like each other. And there's actually, they spend a lot of time trying to sort out those differences and, you know, get ahead and get into a position or get, you know, onto the front bench or whatever it might be. And sure, that's, that's the system. I'm very grateful not to be, not to be part of that at the moment.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  Cause I was, I, I often wonder about people like yourself. But did you ever captain Australia?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  I did 2012 briefly and then got injured.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  See, captain your nation, would you think about, would you ever have any ambition about captaining the country in, in a political sense? I know you, you'd have to be in a party to do it. I get all that. But, you know, cause in this country, we vote, the, we don't vote prime ministers and or leaders in, the party does.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  But have you ever thought about, has that thought ever gone through your mind? Like if I was running the joint, we probably don't have anyone really running the joint. But if I was the leader of the nation, is there anything you would do that's different?

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  Would you do anything different? Would, would you try to bring everybody together?

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Oh, the, you know, I think.

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  That's what you do on a footy team.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Do a lot. I think most people would do a lot different. Everyone have their view. But, um, I don't know. It's not really the way I've thought about it. Like I, the thing I think about is how do we actually set up our political system in a way that people can come in here, they can contribute for a while, and then they can go back to what they were doing. And, you know, people can like genuinely elect someone who they have faith in to go to Canberra for 20 weeks a year, really wrestle with these big issues, consult and make, make good decisions and, and think long term. So I don't know. I

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  guess I've thought a lot more about how do we actually introduce some long-term thinking into this place. And so have, you know, introduced a bunch of private centres bills, which with, you know, the current government basically don't, will never like allow a private members bill to go anywhere. That's their decision. They, they just want.

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  It's like a policy decision.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. But using them as a way to say, hey, we can do better. So, you know, I've, I've got a bill that would legislate a 10 year housing and homelessness plan. Like as, as a country, we have no plan when it comes to housing, like no actual plan. Yes, the government has a whole bunch of policies that they say will solve things. I think some of them are good. Clearly then, they know we're near enough, given where we're at. But my view is, uh, every government's going to have their different ways of getting somewhere, but you at least need to force them to be thinking 10 years in the future.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  I had another bill, which would be a, a duty of care to, to young Australians. And so when the government is making, um, big decisions about approving projects, they'd have to say, well, how's this going to affect, you know, our kids, their kids? Um, that's the thing I've, I guess I think a lot about and really try and work hard at saying, how do we try and change some of the incentives in here and the systems to embed longer term thinking? Because I don't want to be in there forever. Um, you know, I'm really grateful for the opportunity to have. It feels really meaningful at the moment. I'm, I'm pushing hard. Um, but that's, that's, at some stage, I want to go do something else and, and, and

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  hopefully have helped contribute to a parliament that can actually crack on and make some better decisions.

• 1:17:00Speaker 00

  Don't mind if I ask you, are you married?

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  I am, yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 00

  Family, got a young family?

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  I've got a 20 month old son and one, two in January.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  Oh, congratulations. And, and, and were you a Queenslander originally though?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  So finished, finished school in Brizzy. So.

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Would you consider yourself a Queenslander or a Camberan?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Well, I, I mean, I only, I only spent three years in Brizzy, but you know, go for the Maroons in, in state of origin. Um, and then spent seven years in.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  That's where I was going, by the way.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I spent seven years in Perth where I met Emma. Uh, we got married in 2010, uh, and then moved to Canberra in 2012 and love Canberra. I have, have honestly fallen in love with that place. The, it's, I think such a great place to live.

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  Cause I was gonna ask you.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Close to nature. The Morambiji River is.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  I was gonna ask you about that.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Such a special place.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  I'm dying to know. I mean, like, um, what's it like going to work in the mothership though? Like, um, you know, it's when 20, what's 20 weeks of the year? Do you bump into Pauline or I mean, like, do you walk down the corridor? You say, you see people you're having arguments with? I mean, how's it work?

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see everyone. And, you know, it's, um, again, like.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  What do you say though?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  I'm, I think I'm, the ACT reps, I think have a very different experience because we, we go home every night and sleep in our own bed.

• 1:18:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  You know, you can have a, you can have a big awful day and then, then you're home and you, you can go for.

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  Unload.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Your dog in the dark and, you know, catch up with your family and go to bed.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Um, whereas others obviously don't. And, but yeah, you, and honestly, that's one of the things I love is, is interacting with all these people that you obviously don't agree with everything, them, them on everything, but you work with them on stuff you agree on. And, uh, you know, I think one of the, one of the things I've, it's taken a bit to actually get used to, um, after so long in professional sport where, you know, you'll go out there and like, you'll genuinely want to smash your opponents.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Like, yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  Well, you did at times.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Times you wanna, you, you wanna.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  You wouldn't hurt them.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  You want to hurt them.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Um, then after the game.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  It's all over.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  You're chatting.

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. You might have a, a beer in the change room. You're asking about their family.

• 1:19:18Speaker 00

  So is it the same in politics?

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  It's really not. Um.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  You still hate them after?

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Well, no, the thing I've found is, you know, if, if stuff happens in this, and it gets very heated in the senate.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Does it?

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  As you can imagine, um, the thing.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  I, I've never really watched it that closely.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Well, you're not missing much, Mark.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  I know. Well, one of the reasons is because a lot of times there's no one, there's hardly anyone there.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  And, uh, and, and, and the senate, of course, is the red room. That's how I know it's the, the red colour. But, um, i- i- is it because, um, people, like you, you don't get on with people or is it because it's boring? I mean, like, what's the deal? Why you don't want to be like after a footy game, go out and shake hands and give them a hug?

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's just, uh, I think part of it's maybe a culture thing where.

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  You don't do it?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  If you've.

• 1:20:04Speaker 00

  Just not done.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  If you, well, this is, I think this is part of the tension for me is that I can have someone absolutely spray me in the senate, get personal. I'm very happy to walk out and have a yarn to them as if like nothing really happened. Like, yeah, that's, that's, it's a different thing, you know, that's, that's in the senate versus we're just humans. Where I feel like some of my colleagues, uh, you know, don't view it that way. And it's kind of this, you hold a grudge and you don't like someone. And I don't know. I, I think there's, there's opportunity there to actually just, um, let what happens in the senate.

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  Stay in the senate.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Stay in the senate and, um, we can interact as humans outside of that. Um, that being said, there are so many people I get on really well with, in all the, in all the parties. And as I said earlier, one of the tragedies of Australian politics is that people don't actually see that there's a lot of good faith work that happens across party lines with people genuinely working to solve some of these big, and some of these really small problems that, that, you know, affect a small number of people, but in a meaningful way. Uh, and every now and then the senate does do something that I think is, is great, where you can actually drop your party allegiance and just do something together.

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  Well, David, Senator David Pocock, I really appreciated this conversation. Actually, I learned a lot about how things work down there. But I think it's what I have learnt about you is, um, is that it's sort of, apart from you feeling very grateful for being in this country and having been brought up in this country, which is, which is a, like a, too rare a thing for all of us to be reminded of. But also is your, just your reasonableness. And, um, whether it's come from sport or whatever, how you got brought up, I don't know what the deal is. But just being reasonable as a politician, that's really important for Australians to hear that. And so I appreciate that. I appreciate your sincerity and good on you on the widow's tax, mate, because I'm pretty sure by the time this goes air that you would have solved the problem, mate.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  I hope so. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I genuinely think everyone who lives in Australia, we have won the life lottery.

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  Oh my God, yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  We've got, yeah.

• 1:22:13Speaker 00

  But it takes people like you who don't come, who weren't born here, by the way, you know, it takes people like you to actually appreciate that. Cause a lot of us were born here and it's always been the same. We don't realise what it could have been or what it is in other places. You do. And I think that's a sort of a legacy that you've been born with and you're lucky to have.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the conversations you're having.

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  Well done.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Cheers.

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  Thank you.