Wallabies Coach Les Kiss: The Road Ahead for Australian Rugby & the 2027 World Cup

Australian rugby has a massive opportunity ahead of it. A home World Cup in 2027, a new Wallabies coach and a chance to rebuild one of the great sporting teams in the country. Les Kiss is the new head coach of the Wallabies, a former Queensland State of Origin player and one of the few coaches to have worked at the highest level across both rugby league and rugby union. In this episode of Straight Talk, I sit down with Les to unpack his journey from growing up in Bundaberg to coaching the Springboks, Ireland, the Queensland Reds and now the Wallabies. We get into the real problems facing Australian rugby, why so much of our best talent is being lost overseas, what South Africa has done differently to build extraordinary depth, the lessons Les learned working inside the Springboks system and what Australia needs to do to become a genuine force again. Les also opens up about his coaching philosophy, why he refuses to obsess over outcomes, the importance of his “What’s Important Now” mindset and what it will take to build a Wallabies side capable of doing something special on home soil in 2027. Subscribe to the Mentored newsletter here: https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5 Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ Executive Producer: Samuel Morgan Head of Production: Jonah Mclachlan See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Les Kiss, welcome straight to it, mate.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Thanks, mate. I'm really looking forward to this one for sure. Thanks for having me.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  You're welcome. Well, I mean, like, a lot of people don't know your story.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Now, that's where I want to start. Like, where does Les Kiss come from, like, initially? Like, where'd you grow up? We all know you had played rugby. We'll talk about that in a moment. But like, who's the kid?

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was basically a Bundy kid, really, Bundaberg.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  You know, that's where I started my rugby league and, you know, things grew from that space. You know, someone like a Tony Ray, I'm not sure if you know Tony Ray, I played with the New York Sydney Bears. He had a lot to do with the London Broncos. His father was, you know, a fairly important figure in mine. I met him, he was a teacher at school. He got me going into rugby league and into a deeper way and helped promote my career and my,

• 0:56Speaker 01

  where I went in the future. So I had a big influence from someone like John Ray.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  It's funny how, was he your teacher?

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Isn't it funny how teachers can have a massive impact on us? Like, so can, to some extent, can mould us. And to a large extent, as a coach, you're a little bit like a teacher, but we'll come back to that in a moment. But what impact did school and teaching have on you relative to who Les Kiss is today?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I wasn't overly academic, that's for sure. I was curious. I wasn't smart, all those things. But I was more interested in the sport side of things.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Contact sports or just contact?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  All sports. I would have done, you know, every event in athletics. I would have played soccer in the backyard or around lunchtime or played touch. I never got to kick Aussie rules football around because it wasn't this huge back in those days. Cricket was massive. If anything, I grew up wanting to be Dennis Lilly, of all things.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  You got the moustache.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just don't have that, you know, that arm that just came down and put fear in guys. But, you know, I think it's representative of a lot of us. You know, we're a country that's rich in many sports and we expose ourselves to many different sports. It's certainly in more recent times, you know, parents will channel their child into a certain area. But I still think we have that wonderful exposure visually, television, in all forms, that we get exposed to a lot of different sports. And I think it's massively unique for us. Like, if you're a Kiwi, you probably play cricket or rugby, nothing else. You know what I mean? In other countries, you probably play one or two. We're exposed to so many different sports and I was no different with my mates back then.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  And yeah, school was important. Played school footy, first 13 rugby league. And played for Past Brothers Rugby League Club in Bundy. And that was my trajectory into the big league in Brisbane.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  So, I don't know much about Bundaberg. I've been there once. But when I hear about Bundaberg, I think of a sugar town, like I think of Shug Kane and Shug Kane Mills and all that sort of stuff. Tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in Bundaberg. What did you learn from places like that? I mean, here you are on the big stage, you know, the coach of the Australian side. In some respects, when you think about it, a kid from Bundaberg's now coaching the Wallabies, but about to go on to the World Cup in 2027. But that in itself must freak out a little bit.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of W2F moments for sure.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  The missus will go, what the f, you know what I mean?

• 3:38Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it wasn't, this was not a plan at all. But, you know, I think most of us who grew up in regional country areas in Australia, you know, we aspire to be something through sport.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Is that right? Do you think so?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people did. And it's become broader, I guess, there's more educational opportunities and for youngsters to grow through sport, even from girls now, women in sport. They aspire to express through the sport and the big cities is where it really happens. So you end up, you know, ending up finding a space if you're good enough, if you've got enough talent to go to the big smoke and try it out. And I ended up in Brisbane playing for 42 Valley. I got hunted by a guy called Peter McQuirter. He played Origin. He was the coach of Valley Diehards in Brisbane. And from there, it just flourished. It just went ahead.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  So you're a kid at school, about sixteen, seventeen, and then he sort of, let's call it recruited you?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I got recruited to the local club first while you joined through the junior rugby there. But that's where my name became, you know, on the lips of people in the big smoke. There was a guy who played for Valleys, Tommy Duggan, who owned a pub in Bundy. You know, it's the old Chinese whispers or the Bush Telegraph. And suddenly, McQuirter was up there with me, running me around the place and says, come to Brisbane. And I had four offers then. I had an offer from Artie Beaton at the time.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  He was at Redcliffe?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I was a-

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Did he offer to come to the Ruses?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, both. Yeah. And then an offer from Brothers in Brisbane. But I was a fan of Valleys as a kid. You know, I mean, that's the team I wanted to play for. It was the lowest offer. You know, it wasn't big money back in those days, but it was the lowest offer. And something in my guts said I had to do it. And I always reflect on it. It was a, you know, I think you have the sum of your choices basically in life. And that choice was pretty important for me. I didn't go for the money. I went for the something that mattered at the heart of everything.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  What was that? What was that?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Because it's Valleys, Valley Diehards. I sit on the hill at Lang Park and watch them play. You know what I mean? I wanted to put that jersey on, something-

• 5:57Speaker 00

  What was the essence, though, sitting within the Diehards that you thought, I want to be part of that ethic?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, you see Alan Mills run around, who he owed it to, games you wouldn't, names you wouldn't remember now. Wally Lewis played there. It was just that royal blue jersey. Something hit you.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Something romantic?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess it has to be. There is something romantic about it for sure. And when it came down to it, and I mentioned John Ray earlier, he had a big deal from me at Brisbane Brothers. And I remember having to go to a phone booth in the day. You put your coin in. I rang John. I said, John, I'm going to disappoint you, mate. I can't play for Brothers. I have to go and pay for-

• 6:37Speaker 00

  How old were you?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Ah, nineteen or something, nineteen, something like that. Yeah. And I, so there I am, ended up at the club that I loved as a kid. And what I was trying to say is it makes you really search into the reason why you make your decisions in life. You know, be sure that you're not going for the wrong reasons. And I thought, at the time, I didn't think like that. I just wanted to represent that, but Valleys. And then when I think back on it, it was important that it sort of forged the way I thought about my decisions in the future. Is it, you know, I probably overthink it sometimes, but I make sure whatever decision I'm making, I research it pretty deeply. And that one wasn't researched. It was just a deep feeling of, yeah, I wanted to be a Valley Diehard.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  And to this day, I am. And I still, so I've still got my original jersey.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  And that matters. It matters to me anyway.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  So how did you end up in Queensland reps? In rugby league, I'm talking now.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, my rugby league rep was through from Bundaberg into, you know, the regional areas, Wide Bay and that. And just by chance, I'd just resigned with Valley for two years.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  And the Bears came hunting, the North Sydney Bears, Bob Saunders, Chicken Norton, the coach at the time. They came to Brisbane at the end of that season to sign Gary Belcher.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  They found out Gary was going with Mal and the boys to Canberra Raiders. So my name popped up and he rang me and I said, look, I'm sorry, I've already signed. And then he said, look, we'd like you to come. So I went and spoke to my coach, Peter McQuirter. And Peter said, you've got to go down there. That's where I made my way to the State of Origin team. Going to the bigger smoke, Sydney, playing for the North Sydney Bears.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  And yeah, things really accelerated in that 1986 year. It just went from good to better.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Was that 86? Was that the, did you play Origin Queensland 86?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Eighty-six.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Was that the year that, I know, maybe I'm getting confused. No, I'm thinking about that and I'm thinking about another game. But no, wait a minute. No, no, no. Is there a brawl in that game?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  No, no, there wasn't a brawl in that one. I think you're talking about maybe the year before or a year after. Because I wasn't in eighty-seven. I injured my knees and I was out for a couple of years.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Because I remember seeing a brawl only recently where I saw Max Krilich was involved in it.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was before me then, yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  That was before you, yeah. Yeah, so that was, that was, Bugden was fighting Broadhurst. Or one of those sort of people. Like, it was like, it was like unbelievable. They would never get away with it today. What did you learn from playing State of Origin about rugby league that you've taken into rugby union coaching, I'm talking about?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good question. You know, what you do in the past, what reservoir memories or experiences that you do have, things do come through. They do. You probably know yourself and that, and what you learn in different ways. What you learn what to do and what you wouldn't do and who you listen to and who you don't.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, the big lesson there was-

• 9:48Speaker 01

  You know, this sounds really basic, but um, you know, when it comes down to it, when you're with your mates, your best mates, the Queensland psyche is so interesting in its own right, it's different, you know, it's, it is, but there's something that you'll play for something bigger than yourself. You know, I always played the game for the joy and the love and I loved it, but there's something else that's bigger than you.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  You weren't paying for the, the, the money you get paid for playing State of Origin?

• 10:14Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  You, you played for Queensland. I mean, is it a thing that Queensland, I, you know, I, I'll be honest here, did have a mortgage on until about, um, I think Madge, I think Madge has brought that in, into New South Wales more recently and then Laurie's carried it on. But you're right, Queensland, there's something in the Queensland psyche that for 20, 30 years to playing for Queensland was just more important than anything.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I think in the early days, the only person, and I'll be respectful here because now the New South Wales Blues are brilliant players, a brilliant team. But I remember Mortimer lifting the trophy in 83, 84, that, that one period, there was something about him that took it to another level.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  And when they get to that space, they, it's, you know, it's hard to beat New South Wales. But, you know, the, the thing I felt was that you can actually find more in yourself and, and, and it's not just you and yourself, it's with your mate next to you and what you build with the, the guy either side of you. It's all about teamship and all those and we exist, those things exist in every team. But there's something else that I learnt that you can actually extend what this means to you beyond the game itself, beyond, beyond the ball being passed left and right, beyond the tackle. Um, and we had some wonderful characters in that team, a great rugby league team. And, um, yeah, that, that was special.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Who were some of the guys on that side?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Gee Miles, Wally Lewis, you know, I mean, to his days, Gary Belcher, you know, you know, I mean, Horse up the front, Brian Niebling, you know, it was a, it was a, it was a tough, uncompromising period of rugby league. And that, every era of the game is brilliant.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  But they're different.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  They're different, they're different. And that, the difference in those days was, um, sometimes it was brutal, you know, you, you wouldn't accept some of the things that happened in the game back then now. But there was also another level of, um, that it still exists in the game in a different way, but different skill, that, that the way that we expressed our, expressed our skills was, was bloody beautiful.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Two things come out of what you just said about Australia, you coaching Australia. Relative to your experiences, the well of experiences you're going to draw on is making the team play for Australia. They want, they're playing for Australia. So you want more than their just their basic skill base. You, you want them to be better than what they can do every week, playing first grade or playing in, you know, Waratahs or wherever it happens to be. You want them to be all together, playing for Australia. That, that, I want to hear about that, what you think about that and what you're going to do about that in relation to Australia, the team you're coaching now. But equally, how is a skill base need to be expressed differently today in rugby union, say compared to previous periods? A bit like what's going on in rugby league today, the skill base is expressed

• 12:58Speaker 00

  differently. And therefore, to some extent, you, you're the coach, you have to know the skill base that we need, a bit like in rugby league, and we have to go and find the individuals who can perform that skill base, based on their height, their athleticism, you know, their experiences, you know, things you watch in a, in a football player. And, uh, that's, that's where I want to go. That's where, I mean, I think the audience would love to go there too. And what does Les Kiss think about that? But before I, I get, I move off that, um, um, what did you do post Origin? Like, where have you been? You know, like Les Kiss all of a sudden arrives on the stage following Schmidt as Australian coach, but where, where have you been over the last 10, 15 years?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, where do I start? In all honesty, um, 86 Kangaroo Tour, I got a serious knee injury. Um, I got it repaired, but I blew the knee again. I, I literally, you know, five, five games back in. So I was out of the game for about 24 months there. That period there, it was a soul searching period, as, as all injuries are. And, um, um, I, I, I think that's where the, the germination of becoming a coach and, um, seeing the game for a different lens, rather than in the game, uh, outside, work with a coach closely. Um, I think that set me on a trajectory of, um, curiosity about that side of the game,

• 14:24Speaker 01

  how you build a team and put, pull things together, that sense of something bigger than just yourself. Um, how do we become the best us that we can be? All those things. But, um, that threw me into coaching. So as I played on my career, I, I ended up in coaching. I coached Fleg, um, Matthew Fleg, President's Cup, assisted first grade at the Bears. And, uh, suddenly I'm on the trajectory, I'm going to be coaching. And I've really done nothing else in my life, rather than play footy and coach.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's unique from that period. I, I did a bit of work for a sponsor, a poker machine company, as we all do, we jumped in and out of that. But most of my time was in coaching. And, um, um, in my Bears coaching career, um, there was a time where, um, and I mentioned Tony Ray earlier, he was at the, in the London Broncos. So first stint overseas, went and did London Broncos. I got called back to be part of the North Sydney Bears and, um, Manly amalgamation, Northern Eagles. Um, a good friend of mine who we coached against each other with Manly Juniors and Bears Junior was Frank Panisi.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  A good mate of mine. And we were the assistant coaches that appeared to show up. And after a year, I knew that this was just a Manly takeover anyway. And, um, Frank helped me get a connection with Springbok Rugby. Suddenly, um, I'm working with the Springboks on a six week contract and that became another 10 year, uh, week contract. Then it became a two year contract. So I learnt rugby through the eyes of the Springboks.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Did, would, would the Springboks, would a rugby union team like the Springboks drag you into their coaching environment because of the defensive prowess of a rugby league game?

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, uh, John Muddleton, remember him, Phil Lada from, in, in British Rugby League, went to Union. They, he was looking for, the head coach at the time was looking for some expertise in, in rugby league. And, um, and when Frank, um, uh, introduced me to them, Frank stayed on and coached. Um, he went on to the Springboks later, by the way, Frank. Um, but I, um, had this opportunity, so I took it in the hands. And it was mainly about that, the skill sets of defence, but also things they hadn't, they didn't know about at the time, a running lines, unders and overs, manipulating. They were very much about attrition. I'm bigger than you. I'll run over you.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Whereas the manoeuvre part of the game, which is, you know, in our DNA, the Aussie DNA is how do we work things out? How do we pull your part and break down defence lines? They had never done any of that. So I was at the infancy of that. And then Tim Lane came in after me and took that on. So I had 13 test matches, no, 11 test matches with the Springboks. And then I, um, uh, had the opportunity to come home and, um, um, you, you know him well, John Fordham. Um, I had a sit with him and I said, look, I'd like to look at some opportunities rugby here. And he put me in touch with Eddie James next day. The following day, I'm talking to Bob Dwyer and the following day, I'm working with the Waratahs.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Bob Dwyer, big green bottle.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Ran with.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So suddenly I'm, I'm, I'm immersed in this, um, uh, Warata, well, Australian rugby.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Is Bob still around?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, he's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, World Cup winning coach, legend. Um, so I, I actually had these experiences of Springbok Rugby. Um, it was an interesting experience learning. I think it's been a gift to me really to, to understand how they think and how they thought about.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Well, how do they think? Because by the way, we're playing them next week.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  How do they think? I mean, what is their psyche that's different?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  An interesting aside, when I was coaching that team, Rassie Erasmus was right at the end of his career and he was part of that team I was coaching. And he, even then you could see that he was a guy who saw the game differently.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  What, what period we're talking about now?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Ninety, uh, 2000.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  2000.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we're back a while. Yeah. 2000, 2001.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  So that's, uh, uh, post Town Strauss, I think, probably a little bit after Town Strauss, about 10 years after.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  And, um, but the, um, the nature of their game was built on attrition. Um, they played what they call 10 man rugby, you know, eight forwards, nine and 10, kick the ball in front and you have to find a way to get out of that. Now, they still do that, but they have built a wonderful sense of Ben Harbour manoeuvre game. They've got extremely skillful players right across the board now. So they are probably the deeper and most broad team about how you can play the game in many different ways.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Now.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, their set piece, their power, uh, the, the way they wear you down. It's, it's, it's massive. So you, if you take them on, it's the old theory, if you take attrition on with attrition and you can't beat it, the, the difference is manoeuvre. How do you work your way around those? How do you find, uh, crevices here and there? How do you turn them mentally? Turn them around? Make them try and find another way to survive?

• 19:06Speaker 00

  So manipulate them.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're a difficult team to play. So that part of their game, uh, are used as an asset when I was at the Waratahs because they, you know, they like it. So we'd be chopping down early, get them to ground and, and change the way they like to rumble their game. You can actually get some, get some joy against them. Um, so I took some really good lessons from the Springboks, had a great learning experience with Bob Dwyer, Ewan Mackenzie, um, at the, at the Waratahs. Over seven years there, we got to two finals. We just could not beat the Crusaders in that time. Um, but, you know, I, I had the chance to coach the Phil Wars, the Matt Burks, um, Justin, um, Justin Langer, Justin Harrison, Morgan

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Turinuri, those types of people in that era, David Lyons, some really, really class players from that era. Um, Lottie Takiri, Wendell Saylor, Leggies who came across. So I had a wonderful introduction to, um, Australian rugby as well, uh, before I was head hunted to go to Irish rugby. Um, and then I spent 10 years up there and 16 months of that, I, I helped coach the, um, Ulster team and lived in Belfast. From there, I moved across to the English Premiership. Um, the owner of a, a club called London Irish asked me to come across and help them get relegated or promoted. And then I was there for six years before I came back three years ago. And so it's been a, a journey and a half. And in between, I went to Japan and did a couple of spot coaches as well. So I, I've

• 20:34Speaker 01

  been through a lot of different cultures in rugby.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. That, the last three years, what have you been doing now?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Well, um, so London Irish, unfortunately, uh, had to drop out of the league. The owner dropped out and didn't want to go any further. We couldn't get money. So we suddenly were out of the business. There was two jobs in the world, Edinburgh and the Reds. And, um, uh, thankfully the Reds took me up and, uh, I came back and, and, and joined Queensland, which again reignited that Queensland spirit and, and sense of, um, something special, putting the.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Now, I played in the Marang jersey and now I've coached the Marang jersey, although it's in a different code. That's been a special little, you know, loop back journey for me for sure. And it was, it was good to be back there coaching Queensland for sure.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  We've seen some rugby league, sorry, we've seen some rugby union people come back to rugby league and coach rugby league. And of course, I'm talking about Michael Cheka in that regard, and he sat there right in that same chair as you are now. And we, you would know this better than I do, but there's not that many rugby league guys have got to the top of the rugby union world in terms of coaching.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Would that be right?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, be true. Not many.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Not many?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  What's the difference between the two?

• 21:58Speaker 00

  I mean, I know the game is different, obviously, but like coaching I'm talking about.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just thinking, Sean, there was defensive coach for Wales and France more recently, not there anymore.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  But not number one coach?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Andy Farrell, Andy Farrell's probably the other big one who's a leaguey into, you know, leading a country. Why am?

• 22:21Speaker 00

  What's the difference between coaching and the two? Is there an approach that's different?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  It's a really good question.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Psychologically different to the players?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  No, I think the players all have the same psyche. They are competitors. At that, at the level we're talking about, there's, you're built differently and you're made differently and you're raised differently. And you actually adapt differently when you're at this level as a.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  As a player?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  As a player for sure.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Coaching psychologically, in the mental space and the emotional space, I don't think there's a lot of difference. If anything, maybe we have more Australian games. So the psyche of being an Aussie out there and battling away there is different to when you're in club rugby. You, it's still tribal, it still has the same sense of meaning and purpose in that sense. But technically and tactically, the games have vast differences. It's still a go forward game. It's still about.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Meters?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, meters, positioning the ball in the right place, game management decisions. We, we have in union variations of how the game can be manipulated and restarted through set piece, kicks, unlimited tackle, all those things can have the variables that make it different tactically for sure. I love the game of rugby. I've actually been blessed to be at the top of both. You know, to appreciate both games at that level is, it's, it's cool.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  But if you had to describe, if someone coming from another country never saw a game of either one, how would you describe to that person the difference between rugby league and rugby union?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  It's a really good question. I don't know if I have a full answer for it. I'd say that the way that we advance opportunity.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  You're talking about rugby union now?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Union, the way that we advance opportunity, our, our strengths is done more like a structured way. League, you are advancing your strengths more through a flow way. You know, it's a continuous flow about how you put pressure on, how people respond to pressure. And then how you unleash the strengths in your game, you know, the, you know, the hammers and the, and the pongas and the clearies. And how they then take that game apart and rip it apart. So tactically, you're ripping a game apart through flow pressure and continuous pressure. In rugby, there's stop-start pressure and different ways you use different pressure points.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And therein lies the, the elements of different sizes, more different sizes in the game. Because you need to lock up here, you need to prop this wide.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  And opportunity comes from those different sizes, you know, in the way I coach is to, to try to, as much as possible, expose those bigger guys who aren't as mobile and create opportunities through wearing them down in different ways. And that could be through set piece, which is stop-start, but it can also be through possession. And I'm more of a possession coach. I love to use the ball a lot more.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  What does that mean? You mean you like to pass the ball?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like to use the ball more, play multiple phases. But with that comes risk because the more you play in the game of rugby, you've got to find the right time to push the ball off the boot and put it where you need to. Whereas league, you have six, you kick and you have flow pressure. And that pressure builds in different ways. And these genius players in league, they suss it out and they sense it and they see the weakness and they strike.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Do you have, would you have, it's interesting you just said that to me. Do you, do you have people like a clearie who can unpick a game at a certain point in rugby union? Or is it more a team effort? Or is it more structured team effort?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  No, you definitely have individuals that can do that for sure. If I, if I just take the world-class person who does that, at the top of his game, the best number nine I've seen is Antoine De Pont. Is the number nine for France. He's a player that, that can work tight with his forwards and manipulate. And he can work with his backs in a really formative way that, that you don't know what he, where this is going, where he's going to strike. He's quite unique and the best, the best number nine, probably the best player in the world really, that influences a game in that way. Definitely number tens in a game, there's a lot of pressure in Australia in our number tens to perform.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  But I do think it's a collaborative effort. But yes, their, their job with mainly, I reckon in my book, fifteens, the fullback, are picking the moments. And if you look at, that's probably that spine you're looking through.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  In rugby league, in rugby union is a spine that works and manipulates and tries to find that space that's created by a forward pack. Very similar in a way, isn't it? If your forward creates space, they penetrate, they collapse defences. And then you need the, the guys that can see it, manipulate and coordinate and attack, that can attack it.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Does a number fifteen play as big a role in rugby union as they do in league in terms of defence? In other words, you know, calling out.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, massive.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  There's a hole here, move across.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're massive. And we, we tend to use in rugby two fullbacks.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  And you mean?

• 27:38Speaker 01

  So these are fullback, but in, in general, we usually, what's become a trend over the last five, 10 years is that number 10 drops back. And we, they position themselves on 15 metre line and the front line work.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Together?

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they work. And if there is a stress moment that they have to go to the front line on the edge.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Fill a gap?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yep, that comes across and then the winger joins.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And it's like this pendulum moment there. So the, the movements there are different. But if you only had one fullback, we have a fifty, what's it called, fifty twenty two, is it in league? Yeah, we have, no, forty twenty?

• 28:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, forty twenty.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  We have a fifty twenty two and it's quite, getting quite, they're getting quite good at being able to expose space and kick. And you, if you get the ball out, you get the line out down.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  So there is, it's not in your best interest not to have that, that coverage.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  That helps you have fifteen men on, on the ground too.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it helps. So that means we've got thirteen in the front line.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  And then at any ruck defensively, you've obviously got one or two, not, usually not more than two in the, in the ruck. And then the rest are spread and then you've got two, two fullbacks.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Because it, it, it strikes me that rugby union is much more technical than rugby league.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Like not only just, like in terms of how the game's played, the strategy of the game, the flow of the game, but also the rules of the game, which I just, I get, I don't know what the referee's saying when they.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Same here.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  I haven't got a clue. It's a bit like the six again in rugby league though. I mean, PVL won't like me saying this, but you know, it'd be great if they could actually say what the six again is for. Like, because I never know what it is. It's just six again, hand up, six again. But, and I, I think actually consumers of footy, generally speaking, rugby union, rugby league get quite frustrated with not knowing what the reason is for a penalty or a handover. In, in rugby union, does the, now you tell me is it fifteen and a ten, but like, would the, would the fifteen cover as much ground as a rugby league fullback? Because the rugby league fullback now is a smaller guy. He's got, he's got, he's not that big that his legs are getting worn out. He can run long kilometres

• 29:43Speaker 00

  in every aspect, defence and, and attack. Is the rugby union guy fullback getting in the same category now?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Well, they're one of our highest meters, them and two wingers.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Definitely with the, the movements they have. But in attack, they're also, we don't play left and right. You know, in rugby league, you'd have a dead set left and right side played in.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  In rugby, we have a different right winger, but more recently in the way I play, those players from this side will move and attack this side and reassess what the, and rearrange, and then they come back into what I call the axis. And then they attack the next space. So they do more of this. So their meters come up in different ways in that end. The one thing we don't have is, if you had six tackles in rugby league, you can make anywhere from 20 to 50 metres. In rugby, if you had six tackles, most of the time you only make six metres.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  Six rucks?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, six rucks, you might make six metres or 10 metres.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Unless you pick it apart and you break, make a line break or bend them back. And then that's when you get more meters. So our meters, I think, would be probably a little bit less, but our fifteens would be anywhere around six to seven kilometres a game. In that area, you're, you know, in that space.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  What is the thing that surprised you most about rugby, compared to rugby league? Were there some things that really surprised you?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one thing, when I was with the Springboks, early on, it was about probably six to eight, maybe nine, 10 weeks into it. This light came on, boom, and I went, like, I'm starting to get this game because it is different. It is quite different in terms of what happens at the tackle and where your advantage line is.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Um. But the game is about contest, um, contested. And when I played, I could rip the ball off anyone at any given time. Now you can't rip the ball.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  In rugby union.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  In rugby league when I played.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Rip the ball, remember?

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  You can rip, you can't rip the ball out now if you're a one on one.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  So we, we took the contest out. Now contest now is, um, sometimes is an aerial battle, um, and it's not really in the tackle anymore.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Rugby Union, every, now the base of the game is every time the ball's in play, it's available to be contested.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  By anybody.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  But there's two on one or one on one.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Two on one, all that. And then, so securing your ball, um, makes it a different game. And, and, and, you know, uh, that's where you might have fifteen, but you're at a ruck, you need ball player, ball carrier plus two at least. Then you've taken three hours straight away, then you've got a nine. So it's not like you've got always fifteen running at the, at the opposition defence. Space can be created. Um, by the way, you manipulate where the defence work. But, um, the, the major difference and the thing that came on and I said, I get this. And it was through, um, that's why I love watching Richie McCaw in early days. The guy who is the, he's the main guy who contests for the ball. The ball is always available for you to contest within the laws, obviously.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is Les Kiss, uh, responsible for, um, knocking off all the players out of the roosters to play for the?

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Of course, you've had a, he had a fair shot at it, mate. Like, you know, you got Suwali, you got, uh, Crichton, and now you've got Mark Nwonguntenwazi. Uh, but hopefully you've got no one else that we don't know about. Um, why us? Have you been watching all our games or something?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  No, no, well, that happened all before I came in, mate.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, right.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Clean, mate, yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  But well, how important are rugby league players into the, in, like, let's say they're all in contention to play for Australia in the World Cup? Uh, how important are they? Is there a reason that you picked them or?

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I think the rationale mainly was, um, you know, you're talking about players who are supreme athletes, um, but intelligent, supreme athletes.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Footy intelligence, yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Footy intelligence massively. And, um, um, you know, obviously, uh, Joseph was be, well before I

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  I'm in, um, but I'm bloody happy he's with us, uh, mind you.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  What, what does someone like Joseph bring?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Uh, he brings a, a, um.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Apart from athleticism.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's how he uses it. Um, he's, he's got a acute awareness about how he can manipulate a defender one on one. If anything, we've just got to help him grow his, um, understanding how he manipulates with his combination of his players around.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And manipulates in combinations.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Um, so that's one area that, that can continue to grow. But he utilizes his, his skill set wonderfully and the way that he can

• 34:11Speaker 01

  manage a ball is unbelievable.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Do you change, did you change your style of playing to, to, um, sort, not accommodate, but, um, take advantage of his, his skills?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Definitely, yeah. Um, you know, the way that we're building our game at the moment is making sure that I can put them, the Max Jorgensen's, um.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Another great rugby league player. Oh, sorry.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Oh, there you go.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  No, he wasn't, he wasn't far off, by the way.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know. We've managed to keep him. And, uh, uh, Suwali, um, to, to put him into clean space a bit more. And, and been able to manipulate that space and, um, and, uh, hopefully they get more clean air. Cause once they're in the clear, it, they're dynamic.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  Especially if they get outside a man.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, um, you know, they, they usually finish and Max is one of the best, you know, finishers in the game. And then, um, uh, so the, the, these boys are, the, the big thing I find with having, uh, Joseph, but that was well down the track. The other boys coming in, they put competitive pressure in play. You need pressure on all positions. You need to be deep. We're not super deep in our each position in the game, uh, from an international perspective. Like a spring box would be three, they'd be four deep in every position. They could go to.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  What does that mean?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Well, uh, their fourth, fourth tight head prop can probably operate very close to what their first tight head prop can, their fourth nine.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  Uh, each, yeah, player depth.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, player depth in each position is very deep.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  You know, we.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  But you only get, how many do you get for the squad? Thirty?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Thirty three.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Thirty three?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the spring box could put out three teams and still beat nearly every other country in the world.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how deep they built it through Rassie Erasmus and done a great job with that, that nation and how they built their, their whole playing model. Um, and, and, and roster. Um, the Kiwis are pretty deep, uh, that's for sure. The All Blacks, um, we're, we're, we're growing depth. Um, we need to keep, continue to grow it.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Well, what, what is it that stopped us from growing depth in rugby union, similar to the box and, uh, and, and, and the, the All Blacks?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Well, one of the, the biggest challenges for us is, um, and, and not many people would know this, but we're one of the biggest net exporters of players in the world. So we've got a lot of Australians playing overseas. And sometimes we can't match the money that is offered. It, it's sometimes extraordinary what they can do.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Really?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it, the difference, particularly at a younger age, it can be quite different. Um, particularly the French league, if they find a young, um,

• 36:46Speaker 01

  strapping young big forward, they wanna take over, they, they, they offer big money for.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  What sort of money you?

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Well, it's like league taking, uh, putting out money, but you know, it's, it's not been unheard of money, money between eighty to hundred and twenty thousand euro for young, young men.

• 37:01Speaker 00

  You're half me in Buxton, you're like.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they're, they're getting good money if they wanna go. It, it's not only that, it, there's only so many jerseys a country can offer at international level. Um, and, um, you know, if they feel like they're not at, at the braces, that it, it, it's an opportunity to go, go away and play elsewhere. But where Australia is one of the biggest, biggest net exporters of players, talent around the world. Um.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Whereas the others aren't.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Not as much, but the spring box have, have a different model. They allow their players to, to play overseas heaps. They build their local content and then they come back in and they're building depth and depth and he, and Rassie exposes them to test matches. Um, which is a smart model that, that works for them. For us, we wanna make sure we keep as many good players. And we wanna probably for the majority of the time, select players who stay in the country, but we do have access to players who, who do leave the country as well.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  And then is, is there a, a move, like a positive move, maybe under the leadership of, uh, Phil War, like, but is there a po- positive move to adopt something similar, more similar to the spring box?

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Um, uh, nursery type process and building up, you know, these three deep, four deep in any one position?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  We, we've got a, a, a plan in place that we're, we're, uh, working on.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Is that your plan or, or does it the, um, AIU's plan?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  How's it work?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there's a contracting model and all that, man. It's a couple of things. Most of the money comes from RF that provides money to the provinces. Each province, um, also generates some of their own income. Um, but, uh, the most of the, uh, financial power does come from the national union. Um, but there's strategies within each of the provinces and academies, definitely. Um, you know, I was part of the Queensland system over the last three years and we've been very proactive in terms of, um, tapping into this, uh, uh, the talent base and providing the best coaching, the best pathways we can. Um, each of the unions are doing that in different degrees.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Rugby Australia are supporting that definitely in, in financially, um, as well as, um, helping to align systems in, in the program. Uh, in terms of building that local talent pool is important. Um, we only have four teams in the competition, so you can't keep all of them. That's why we do lose some overseas, cause we're a very good sporting nation. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we, we're deep as sportsmen. If we didn't have league and union, uh, Aussie rules, it'd be a pretty formidable rugby union team.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Oh, sure would.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  It would be, wouldn't it? So, um, but we're, we're still bat, uh, not battling, we still have a place to play at the top of the game in rugby union. And that, that's where we want to go. So it's important we build those feeder systems and pathways. Strengthen our provinces as much as we can. Uh, by provinces, I mean Queensland Reds.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Waratahs.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Bumbies, uh, force. Um, and so that we can, you know, grow what competitions they play in as well. Cause the more games you play at the higher level, you, you build their capacity. Um, and getting that deeper and deeper is so important. And then, and then providing each of those states with the, the right coaching and that as well. Um, and hopefully, um, over the next, this won't happen overnight, but over the next, you know, two to five, six years, we, we can build three deep in each position, three and a half, four, you know what I mean? And that, that's where we'd like to get to for sure.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. But do, do, do you, um, do, does Les Kiss maintain relationships with, um, you know, the coach of the Reds? You know, the, the Brumbies, you know, Czech, Michael Cheka, like, um, do, do you maintain relationships and say, listen, Sam Blake, there you got, um, I got mine in for, you know, for the future. Do you have those sort of conversations?

• 40:44Speaker 01

  So we'd have a national depth chart, um, uh, that we'd be looking at all players through different systems. Um, we have a a process in place where we have fifty players on a national watch list and we talk to the coaches in each of the states about who's.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  At the province level or, or at the?

• 41:01Speaker 01

  So we're fifty, uh, uh, fifty from the, the states, yes, the provincial level. And, uh, they're on a watch list and, you know, someone like, um, you know, a Max is in that group and someone like a Fraser McRice in that group, um, you know, Jeremy Williams from the force. So there's the top level players are on this area. And then it's about that next level, being able to make sure that they, their resource in a good way that we, we improve that, that talent base and get those young kids coming through and performing. Uh, so yeah, we're, we're proactive with the states.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  But would you say to the coach of the Waratahs, you know, I, I, I, I don't know the current, but I know Cheka's becoming, has become the coach, will become the coach. Um, do you say to him, look, we wanna get, um, this particular guy here to play in a certain way. We need him to have a certain style of, cause we know we're earmarking him for, you know, as one of the three deep in the number ten jersey and number fifteen jersey, um, for Australia. And, you know, he's one of, on our watch list. And, but there's some of the skills we would like to get out of this kid for when he's a bit older, uh, blah, blah, blah. Do, do you then sort of lean on Cheka to help develop that?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Um, when I was part of the Irish system for, you know, ten years, there, there was collaboration in terms of how you talked with the provinces about skill sets that are important. One of the things I did learn is if you over engineer and over, um, um, legislate that, you actually stop innovation.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  So I'm big for each state to innovate the best way they can. I need them to, I need Cheka, I, I need, uh, Larkham Burn, I need Simon Overin, I need them to find a way that suits them and plays for them.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  If you rip back down, there are some skill sets that can be similar, but those will never be mandated by us. But, but we will chat to them about what they're doing. I've got a new coaching team, basically, that's the Wallabies. We will be on the road come January and talk to each state about what they're doing and we, and talk about how we're looking at it. Because we don't want them to be all the same. You know what I mean? We want them to be innovative because they might give us some clues about something that can be done. At the breakdown or in the tackle or in terms of a phase attack. There, there may be some things that they're doing that we, that becomes important for us. So if we did too much play like us, do what we do, I think we stop what we are as naturally.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  So you don't take the top playbook and actually try and filter down through the system?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  No, what each state will do in, in the, at the Reds, we had the Reds way and we, we definitely put things through that. For the kids to rip onto something to be something like a Reds player. Each state will have a little bit there that they do through the systems. But from a national perspective, um, you know, not many things are that different. But if there is a point of difference, we might discuss it, but we'll never ever say you have to do this. You know, I think we're one of the most innovative sporting nations in the world. We've proven that in many sports from Olympic sports, right, all the team sports. Don't get in the way of that, let it flourish. And, and then my job with my coaches is to pull that together and make sure. We get them on board for the little things that we feel that are important for us.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  And, and that's important, I think. Don't legislate to the point where everyone has to just be cookie cutters.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's, um, you've had five wins. Congratulations. No.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Four.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Four wins and a draw.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Had one draw.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you haven't been beaten. You're unbeaten.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  But coming up.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  It's a big, it's a big test. I mean, the best team in the world. And you've already talked about the spring box system, like it's a.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  It's formidable.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  Well, how are you feeling about that?

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, it certainly concentrates the mind.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Do you get nervous? Do you get nervous?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Does it stop you from sleeping? Or do you think?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I sleep well. I must say I do sleep well. Every now and then I wake up and I go, oh no. You know, I mean, there's something, but I do sleep well. I, I, I'm actually very, very. Disciplined in making sure I look after downtime and time that allows the mind to go elsewhere.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Do you like meditate?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that type of thing and, um. And ensure that there's a balance there and, and utilize my time at home with the misses in the most productive way. I mean, that, that's very important for me, but when my head's in footy, it's in footy and.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  So you can actually park your, your brain outside of it. So I get home. Okay, I'm now gonna do, I'm not gonna think about what I've just been doing.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Well, I do, because I know there's plenty of tabs open here all the time, you know, in the back of the head here. But I do make a concerted effort to do things and it's walking or, you know, whatever we like to do. We, we go and do something and chat and a lot of the chat might be about footy because she's interested in footy. You know, she met me as a rugby league player and she's now experiencing, um, uh, rugby union now at the highest level. So some of the discussions around that, but, um, making sure that you give balance, I think is so important. But it doesn't mean I, I won't ever say I'm totally switched off. You know what I mean? But, um, but I do sleep soundly, um, and, um.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  And, and make sure, uh, I look after myself healthily in that sense. But, but you know, the spring box, they're on the mind here all the time. We had a coaches meeting this morning. It was very good.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  You know, we, we know what's happened, what's at the doorstep. But they're coming to our backyard. We, we've got to raise.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Not our expectation about winning. We want to win. That's just a given. But raise our expectation about what it means to, to, to be repeatedly good at what we do and put it out in the park. That's one thing that we're trying to drive on.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  How do you get people, team members and, and probably your staff members too, um, to. Accept that they're a winner. Because it's, it's a big thing in, even in business, like some people are gonna, are not used to winning.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  How do you do that?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  See, winning, uh, it's a really, it's a great question because, um. You can get hijacked by winning.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, on the opposite side too, because you're unbeaten, you think you're unbeatable.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, um, you know, if you're outcome driven without understanding how you get there, that's an issue. Uh, we use the word win, W I N, what's important now. And right now, this is what the most important thing you must do. So we, your skill set has to be accurate, has to be resilient, has to be able to be robust and repeatedly turn up and aim up. With the spring box, if we're not good at the breakdown, repeatedly running and presenting the ball and cleaning out in the right way, they will hurt us. You know what I mean? So we need to understand what processes add up to winning and that's important. So, um, if, how do you bring people into that space? You've got to make sure that we have the aspiration to know how good we can be. Don't, let's not cap this.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Let's have blue sky. Know that there is things are possible. But just because you say that's possible, doesn't mean it happens. Now, we are very, very rooted in making sure we get the fundamentals right, that they're repeatable under pressure, that they keep turning up under pressure. And if we can do that well, then, um, the other parts of our game come together. And one of the big things is I want, I want this team to be able to express who we are, be skillful. And skillful doesn't mean willy nilly throw the ball everywhere. I, I remember a great statement, I think it was attributed to Arnie Beetz and he was an unbelievable ball player. He was noted as one of the best ball players of his time, but he was defined by the ones he didn't throw.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Rather than ones, and that's important, you know, skill.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Very judicious.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to be. And skillful doesn't mean just throwing the ball. It means knowing what is matters right here now. What's important now is a little bit of a.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  Or what's possible.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Because like, because I might be standing up in the tackle like Arthur and he would know, well, there's no point throwing the ball there because it's, he's gonna get collected.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  I might as well just go down with the ball. It, it's, it, I'm just, um. Thinking back to what you said earlier about the spring box and, or South Africa in terms of their style of play. Will you try to meet their style of attrition?

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Will you try to meet that as opposed to go above it? And then will you try to then unpick them in terms of, um, what you call, we use the word manipulation, manipulate around them?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Is it, is that, I don't want you to give away the strategy.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  No, no, it's a balance of two. And I think you have to, you have to do that with the spring box. You cannot escape the physical.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Fine. But that means you have to match them or you?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you match them and better them.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  And do, and try to do better?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and our guys want that physical confrontation. They want to be able to step up and, and, and, uh, show what we are in a mall, um, in a scrum. And our carries and our clean outs, they will not, they will not step away from that. That, that is a given. It, and it's just that when the forces do become equal, what, what's the difference?

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Then what happens then?

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, speed, guile, um, opportunity, manipulation. It's big in the game now, aerial pressure and what happens off those, uh, aerial contests. The breaking moments in between set piece, you know, when the ball's loose, what, what, who are we? What can we become? And, and I think we're a bloody good nation in that world. Now, we can, we can play, you know, a Harlem Globetrotters, try to style a game, but, but it's all rooted in good instinct and good structure. And, and good understanding of each other and good understanding of what your skill sets are. So trying to, to make sure that, that, that we are not just trying to be a team that throws the ball around. We need to be physical, direct, we need to be north, we need to penetrate, we need to challenge the opposition mentally.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Not just physically, but mentally and, and tactically consistently. And, um, and I think that's where our big growth is, is to have repeatability in those things. We've proven that we are very good, um, but can we be very good for a full lady? You're not gonna have it perfect and that's for sure. It's gonna be imperfect. Can we do that game on game? Can we do that for a tournament? And that's what we, we're working on and, and making sure that we understand what it takes to do that.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Twenty twenty seven is gonna be a tournament and, um, it is, you know, it's an exciting World Cup coming up. Um, do you think, you talked about, um, contesting the ball in the air? Of course, Mark Nawangatena was, you know, he's going to rugby union next year. He's not bad in the air.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Max is good. Max is.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Max is pretty good too.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Quite incredible, actually, some of the stuff that Mark can do on his fingertips. I don't know if you saw what he did in Penrith on the weekend, which has been played over and over again. But that ability to catch the ball literally on the fingertips, throw it back into his chest, grab hold of it, then get up and outrun the opposition. You must get pretty excited about those prospects.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Certainly do, yeah.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  I mean, will you have, in rugby league, they'll have Sam Walker will kick to Mark, or he'll kick to Daniel Tuper, but will you have, will you play that sort of game a little bit?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  We will definitely be trying to, they do it now, that we kick to what space you know is going to be open, but you kick to the person that we are with.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Now that's different. Is that a different, is that a bit of a slight development in?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's something that's been really more important. There's two forms of kicking to contest. That is the one when there's free open space and you have someone has a free catch on it and having accuracy to kick. But it's how you position your resources compared, depending on where they are. Kick to the space we catch, it's a free kicker, it should be if it's accurate in a catch. But the contest in the air and everyone's, there's two people mainly go for the ball. That's become a massive part of the game. Now, the contest generally would say is 50 50 most of the time, but some teams win 60% and more than you. So you've got to develop that skill.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not sure if it's recent we've done it, but I know in the past we've used Aussie Rules boys to help in those skillsets.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Which is definitely good. When I was working with Irish Rugby, there's a strong Gaelic football, which is the genesis of Aussie Rules anyway. And they're very good in the air and catch above their head. They know how to get timing at the right time and meet the presses of where that ball's going to be and control that space. There's a skillset we do have. It's something that we feel we can be better at. Because that breaking ball, that moment, that moment is when the defence is most dishevelled. It's trying to find form.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  And there's sometimes they're going backwards too.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  It's harder to jump with the timing going backwards. It just looks like that to me anyway.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and how you catch the ball in your own kicks, how you catch balls when they're kicked against you, how you protect the circle around it, how you are then off the ball. Because in those breaking moments, that's the most, that can be the most precious time to attack the opposition.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  What's a breaking moment?

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Well, by that, if it gets up there and the ball spills and no one catches it, those moments, things can happen. You need to be ready for it. So they're an exciting world. It's quite.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  It is becoming exciting, Rugby Union. I mean, I think now, compared to say maybe four, five years ago, it was just a little bit too flat for me. But now it's getting a bit more exciting, especially with like contesting the ball in the air, like not the long kick, the shorter kicks. And I find that stuff really exciting.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think the balance for us is, how do you, and most teams, some teams kick more than others. Maybe they aren't as proficient as using their attacking capacity, so they use that. And then when they get the breaking ball or win that moment, they attack when the opposition is not as organised. We utilise our ability to move the team with ball in hand and attack spaces that we feel we can manipulate. But this breaking ball or the catching the ball and the opposition aren't as ready. They become precious moments of the game and it's an exciting game. I think two things, the law changes a bit, it helped. But I think coaching and generally more ambition from coaches around the world to be able to play a little bit more.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  You mean a bit more innovative?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Innovative and attack the game definitely for sure. And tactically, the differences in the game and tactics are quite different from team to team. And that's an interesting thing as well.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Is that what you bring to the Wallabies, do you think?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will still bring a different tactical approach to it, a different lens. But I do work with my coaches closely. I invite them into the room.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  How many coaches, extra coaches would you have in the room?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  So we've got four, five, including a scrum coach. So the scrum coach is quite a specific skillset. So a set piece coach, defence coach, tech coach and a breakdown coach, basically. So, but we merge our talents and I don't like my coaches sitting in a silo. You're only doing this and once that's finished, you've got nothing else to do with the game. I like them to be integrated and that we collaborate in terms of what we get to. You still need one voice, which is my job, to drive it, but we're together and how we get there. And I use their smarts as well.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Do you pick those people?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, three of them were there before I came, but I sat with Peter Horn and Joe Schmidt and interviewed them at the time so that they could continue with Joe until he left. And then I brought in myself and two other guys, fresh into the system.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  So how do you feel about the World Cup? I mean, obviously you're excited about it, but do you think that Australia's going to, our team, the Wallabies, is going to excel? Do you think that, I mean, I know you're going to say yes, and of course you're going to say yes. But do you feel in your heart of hearts that we're ready for this? I mean, would you love another year or two?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  I accept the time I have. I'm not going to wish for anything else. I can only deal with the reality, I've got this many months.

• 56:48Speaker 00

  Play what's in front of you.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. And there won't be one person who'll say, I wish we had more time. We don't, we just have the time we have and that's what.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Have you got enough time though between here and, when's the start?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  We certainly have, October.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  October, so you've got a year effectively.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  We've got 30 more months, we've got seven tests for us for this year, then we've got another six or seven next year. So we.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  You've got seven more tests for this year?

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Before the end of the calendar year?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we've got time to.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Seven?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Springboks, the All Blacks twice in the Bledisloe, and then we've got four down in Europe.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  And where's the Bledisloe being played?

• 57:23Speaker 01

  First one's at Eden Park.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, and?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Which is, I think it's 86 since the last time.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, we haven't won for a whole time.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  And the second game's at Accor here in Sydney.

• 57:32Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  They'll be two big games massively. We get the first one and then the Bledisloe is open. We haven't been able to win it for years.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  So that's another challenge, you know what I mean? But we do have, you know, I've got a plan forward and we say where we're going with this and how we're building things. But we have a little saying, right here, right now, and then right here, right now, there's a Springboks team.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's it.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  At the top of the world, they've just beaten the All Blacks three games in a row. It's formidable.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  But look, it's our backyard, you know, we've got to stand up.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  There's time.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  It's time. And I look at the World Cup, we have approached a lot of discussions about it with the group. Just say, you know, this next 13, this is a once in a lifetime, unique opportunity for this bunch of boys. You know what I mean, they're young men. Let's not, let's not leave any stone unturned, you know, let's make sure we find out how good we can be. And why not, why not get there and do something special? But it doesn't happen because we say it, W I N, what's important now, you know, what's right here in front of us? We've got to make these little steps along the way. We've got to get better at certain things. We have to get better at certain things. And that's our job as coaches and of players to challenge each other, get better in those things.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  And, you know, it starts at Sunday week, you know what I mean? Springboks at Perth and, you know, Perth is, you know, there's more Yarries that live in there and Australians just about. So it's going to be formidable. That's good, we welcome those things, we need these challenges. I mean, the Springboks and then two All Blacks, that's brilliant.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  That's pretty amazing. That was good prep for the World Cup.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  It is, yeah. And next year we've got an Anzac test in around March, you know, and that game's going to be played, I think at 1pm, then followed by the Aussie Rules Rugby League and then, you know, those traditional matches. So Rugby's now on the stage there, so we're going to play the Kiwis there in Suncorp.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  On Anzac Day.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  It's a big day.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a massive day, yeah. And then we play the Kiwis twice later in the year and then we play them in the pool. So we're going to play them one, two, three, four, five, six times.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Well, you should know this style of play by the time you get there.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a way, they play here so often. So they're going to be unbelievable and a team to beat in the World Cup as well. You know, they're a good team.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Well, can I ask you one more question? Like, and I'll put something to you, like in the 90s, I actually watched a lot of Rugby Union. And I had a lot of friends playing Rugby Union and a lot of the older guys in my age group, who used to watch the game in the 90s, often lament, they say, they would say, I loved Rugby Union when I was running rugby with the other brothers, you know, Damien Smith used to play on the wing. We had, it was, there was a lot of movement and they'll back, like they're backing themselves, you know what I mean? Is that coming back? Why hasn't it come back? What's the difference?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I definitely want it to come back. I do believe the players want more of that.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  It's who we are, it's in our DNA in a way. Look, I.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  To back yourself.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you go back to when you're in the backyard. You found a way, didn't you? You found a way to beat your mate and his mate in the backyard or in the beach. You're just competitive. You have an edge to you. You want to beat them in many different ways. I think the way that we are built, that's who we are. We've got to be able to use the ball and have a bit of running rugby. But you have to balance it up in the right way for the right things, that's for sure. So it's not going to be just loose and totally hard. It has to be a good balance and manipulate the game and territory the way that you should. You know, take examples out of league, how you manipulate the game forward and make the right meters

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  and kick in the right space and utilize those type of pressure points in a useful way. Definitely, but you know, these boys like to play. They like to play, they like to be skillful. We just have to learn how to manage that pressure in the best way possible.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  So Liz, do you reckon rugby union guys are like at the Wallowie level? Or maybe at every level, are sometimes sort of constraining themselves a little bit? Because you know, like maybe they'd love to be passing the ball and you know, moving it around and you know, a bit more like rugby league does. And then they say, oh, no, hang on, I've got to be a bit more structured because I've got to play the game the way the boss wants it.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Well, it's like this, in league, there's moments where you just have hit ups to create opportunity for reads.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  So that's, that's running rugby, but there's still like structure and organize how you go forward.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. How you get to the running rugby?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  So it's not all running rugby. It's how do I get to that point where we can run the ball?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then pick things apart and use our strengths against it and analyze or a possible weakness. You know, league do it, they look at their right side defender three and we know we can pump, we can pump him, we can bully him.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  Or he looks a bit tired.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, very similar. You know, in our game, you don't have set people in positions in defence. That could suddenly the second from the edge could be a big prop. Why wouldn't you run at them? You know what I mean? It's not going to be as fast and nimble as Max Jorgensen, for example. So the variables are there, but the tenants of the game go forward, create space in different ways is there. But running rugby, if that's the term, it's not out of the realms that it can't be a good formative part of it, who we are. That's, I think in a way that's how we're built, but we also need to understand that we have to meet the other components of the game go forward.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  It's funny you should say that because you just talked about picking someone off. I remember watching, I can only go back to league, but I remember watching Nathan Cleary.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  Watch, I kept looking at him, he kept watching Mark Nawangatina Wazi when he first started playing for the Roosters and I think he worked out that Mark's, because he's a big guy, got big legs, he would fatigue a bit. And Nathan waited till they were pressing our try line and Mark was standing at the goalpost and he kicked straight to Mark and Mark, you can see Mark's legs are stuffed and they scored. And Nathan just jumped up, picked the ball and scored. And those sort of guys who can pick out the weakness on the other side is incredibly. Max is one of those, Max Jorgensen is one of those sorts of guys.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we've got people who are, we're trying to grow their understanding of seeing the cues, which are right down to the individual, are they tired, are they bollocks?

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Or he is a weak left side defender, you know, because he's weak, the others react to him and they create other space. All those things are in rugby as well. I remember, I remember playing at Bear Park the first time, I played against Steve Mortimer and I thought I'm annoying and I'm trying to go up, he sees me go up, he kicks in the corner. I go back, he passes out the edge. They're all geniuses, aren't they, these guys? They pick you out and they say, I've got you, Mark. Yeah, that's, that's always been the game and the Australians are pretty good at that, you know. And I'm not saying other nations are, you know, the other nations are as good, if not better. But that's who we are, we will be, we will be that, but we have to be the other thing as well that gets us forward.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, Les, I mean, I'm looking forward to you leading Australia as the Wallowie coach and mentor and everything else you stand for, not only against the Springboks next week, but the All Blacks, a couple of games, the Blooders League Cup. Please bring it home for a change. And all the games you're going to be playing next year and then the World Cup. Thanks very much, this has been awesome, mate.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks for your time and I really enjoyed it, mate, so thank you.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  Thank you, mate.