Michael Chammas: Building the NRL's PNG Team, Leaving Journalism & Taking Opportunities

Michael Chammas is the general manager of rugby league's newest expansion team, the PNG Chiefs, in what could be the NRL's most ambitious venture ever. The former Sydney Morning Herald journalist traded his media career for the challenge of building Papua New Guinea's first NRL club from the ground up. Chammas reveals the complex recruitment strategies needed to convince players to relocate their families to PNG, the cultural significance of rugby league to the Pacific nation, and why the tax-free incentives are essential for success. He discusses his transition from breaking stories to making them, the logistical challenges of establishing pathways in a country with 850 languages and 1,000 tribes, and why this team represents more than just rugby league. Why Michael left his dream journalism job for an even bigger dream The family considerations behind relocating to Papua New Guinea How Jerome Luai's signing changed everything for the Chiefs The reality of living in the Airways resort compound Building rugby league pathways in a developing nation The tax-free salary cap debate and why it's necessary Papua New Guinea's passion for rugby league as its national sport Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ Subscribe to the Mentored newsletter here: https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Michael Chalmers, welcome to Straight Talk, mate.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Thanks, Mark. Appreciate you having me.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  We're here to talk about your dream job. Is this your dream job? You're not being hip, but your dream job? The general manager of the P and G Chiefs. Is that your dream job? A rugby league general manager of a club, a new club?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone keeps telling me, well, you're playing real life Super Coach. You think that's it, that's a, that's a job, but it like, it's been unbelievable. I've been doing it now two months. I thought, to be honest, I thought what I was doing was my dream job and I loved every minute of it.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  As a journalist?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, as a journalist. But yeah, so far, so good. But come back to me after I lose the game, I might not feel the same.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Man, it's a bit like coaching, like it's probably the best job, probably the worst job too. And now let's get into it a little bit like, um, you mentioned before, as you were coming in that you've just come back.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  You took your wife, the whole family or just?

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, my wife had been for, we went before I made the decision to go, I took my wife over.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  But this was our first trip as a family. So I took my three kids. My wife's pregnant. We got number four on the way.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's a.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  You're a good walk boy, mate.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  It's a bit.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  Plenty of kids.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Correct, correct.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  Like me.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  It's so like, for me, I just wanted to see them be happy and it's a big move for them, you know? Like when I made the decision to take three kids, they're 10, eight and six. Um, it's a big call, but to see them, there was a special moment, Mark. We went in the afternoon down to Ella Beach, just the local beach there in Port Moresby. We had some former players with us, Willie Mason and James Graham, Justin Horro. But to see them walk onto the beach and all these kids, they just, they just got, their life is football. They're playing footy on the beach, simple life and they're happy. And to see the way they embraced my children on the beach, my kids are out there playing footy. They're all hugging them, high fiving them, saying bye to them when we were leaving. It, it was a real heartwarming feeling for me to see that my kids are going to be embraced over there

• 1:47Speaker 01

  and not just going over there because dad's got a job. And to see them happy and Willie Peters, his son and wife, yeah, they, they came over as well. I think everyone got a real sense of just how, how important rugby league is to that country and how idolised they're going to be. My kids are eight and 10 years old, the boys, and they're signing autographs at the local school.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Serious?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Like, it's just.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's like, obviously, you know, you laugh about it with the family, but.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's cool.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  But it is cool. Like, you know, there's how much these kids, they wouldn't know who they are, but they hear the Chiefs and they're excited.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  That is quite amazing. Why, why was Willie Mason and, um? Jimmy Graham and such there.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they called me out on social media on their podcast saying, get us over there and hello sport boys. And we just thought as a club, you know, obviously the media had been there before and there'd been a lot of talk around Luai in the media. We just thought as a club, it'd be a good opportunity for them to see it with their own eyes. And I know that there's mainstream media, but for us, like we still have to recruit 28 more players. A lot of those guys, we can't talk to to November 1. So I've, yeah, be with my media hat on. I thought, well, I know where the players listen to. The players are listening to these former players. They're listening to these podcasts. So if I can't talk to them directly, we can talk to them through these players and they can share their experiences. So that's what's, that was what drove our decision to get them over there and they loved it. They absolutely loved their time over there and they've

• 3:07Speaker 01

  been great for us to hear all the positivity that's come out of it. So I know there are a lot of players who are listening to them. And hopefully they might not have thought P and G is an option. Suddenly they might.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Wow. It's, it's, um, I, I, it's interesting you just talk about, um, your kids and your family not really knowing P and G like as such and all, and Willie Poot is the same. Um, and probably even the players that went over with you or the former players that went over with you. But a lot of people don't know who Michael Chammas is.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  So this is an opportunity actually for you to speak to. We have a lot of rugby league followers and players, et cetera, listening to our show. So maybe they'd like to know who they're going to get involved with.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Who's, who's the dude? So let's go back a little bit. Let's go back, right back to Michael Chammas as a kid.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Where'd you grow up? What's the deal?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Kid from Western Sydney, still am. Um, grew up, was born out Penrith Way, but, uh, spent most of my life out Maryland's in Parramatta. Went to Parramatta Marist High School, thought he was my life, Dragons fan. Didn't know in kindergarten, didn't know numbers. All I knew was number one was Mick Potter, number two was Ricky Walford. Got in trouble for that, teach that to bring my parents in. Footy was my life, Mark. Like, it's.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Did you play a bit of footy?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I played for twenty, from four to twenty-three.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Played, just not good enough to make it. And the only reason I got into media was not because I was book smart or loved to write. Like, I actually struggled in English, to be honest with you.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:30Speaker 00

  You're such an accomplished writer, though.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Oh, well, it's, it's taken a while to get to where I am. And guys like Andrew Webster and my former editor, Ian Fug, like, helped me a lot along the way. But I just wanted to get involved because I loved footy. And I thought, if I can't play it, this is the next best thing. So somehow I got, just got through the H S E and got into uni. And, um, yeah, started journalism at uni.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  When you're doing journalism at university, do you, did you have in your mind a plan that I'm gonna go write rugby, gonna be a rugby league writer?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Oh, and there was nothing else.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Really?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I, I would not have made, I would never have got a Sydney Morning Herald cadetship doing it the traditional way, which is exam, interviews, like, I don't, like, I'm not ashamed to say that I live in a bubble of rugby league and sport. And my family, that's it. Like, I'm not educated to the outside world, book smart. But what I did love was footy and I wanted to be part of that. And thankfully with my connections, living out west, playing in that competition. That's where I started covering the local, uh, for the local newspaper, the Paramount of Sun, for free, in that competition with like, like Jared Hain, Tony Williams, Chris Keating, Hodkinson, Timmy Manor. All these guys I played with and against before. I was covering them as a, as a young eighteen, seventeen year old. So, yeah, it sort of flowed on from there.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Was it like an internship while you were studying as?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  It wasn't even. They just rang me and said, I did, I did an assignment on, um, and it went to the local paper. And the journo, John McDonald, rang me and said, um, I can't pay you, but do you want to cover the lower grades for the paper for free? And I was like, bloody hell, go to the games and cover it. And I did that for twelve months, just every weekend, covering Jersey Flag, Harold Matts, S G Ball, Reserve Grade. And twelve months later, there was a cadetship at the Fairfield Champion. And I got that, so.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  You know, cause one of the things I know about you.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  Well, I know because I've been told by some of the people, some of the most astute minds in rugby league.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Is that, um, one of them, one of them was your former boss. One of the places you used to work for, like, the ultimate boss.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  And, uh, we won't mention his name, although he usually does get a run when we talk about rugby league and stuff. Um, and, uh, he told me that you're the best. You were the best more recently in journalistic sense of getting intel. Like finding out shit, just actually getting to the bottom of a story, whatever that is. Then I've observed you a few times, a few people I know, and I've seen you work them a bit. Not in a bad way.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  But like, you know, you're, you seem to get on their good side and they, they tend to trust you. And as soon as you get trusted, you get information over time. You don't, you never, I don't really ever remember seeing you hijack anybody or, you know, like hang them out to dry. Too bad. Anyway, I mean, a few out there, there's one or two I've seen you hang out to dry, but I don't mind those ones. They hung them out to dry, as you know. But generally speaking, that's not your reputation. You don't stitch them up.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  But your information is usually pretty good.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Where did you learn that from? Did you learn that when you were covering the SG ball, Harold Matts, et cetera? Did you learn about that then? The importance, because that's powerful.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate what you said. Like, I don't know, I just, I think you learn that as, I don't think. You learn it as a person, like what kind of person you want to be. And I feel like in journalism, everyone thinks, oh, how do you get information? Well, simple. People need to trust you. You need to build relationships. And if people can't trust you, you don't get information. And, and part of that is not being someone who's just using the other person for information. There is the exchange of information, like a lot of the people that you're referring to. It's a two way street, you know, they want to know what you know as much as you asking them. But also the ability to then know, okay, well, I'm not going to write that because it's going to burn my relationship with that person. And to build trust, you can take four or five years to build that trust, but you can burn it overnight. And that's one thing I've always

• 8:21Speaker 01

  prided myself on when it comes to media is making sure you do the right thing by people. Not everyone's going to like what you write. Not everyone's going to agree, but as long as you've given everyone the opportunity. And you've done your due diligence to make sure what you're writing is correct. And I feel most times that hopefully I did do that. And I not everyone will like me, but relationships, everything. And it's not about being book smart in journalism. I I honestly mean that because you just have to, it's just street smarts, common sense, relationships. That's all it is. And if you are able to to to form that trust with someone, you need to keep it.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  So where did you learn that that that concept? Because that's not necessarily something that you're born with. I mean, is that a is that something from your dad? Did you learn it from growing up? Did your parents teach you that?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think my dad and mom definitely big on the person that you are like. And as I said, if it was, if I was going to rely on my my education or my ability to wow people with my knowledge of the world, that wasn't going to happen. Just be real, be someone who people wanted to hang around. And um yeah, it's hard, like your first five years in in media. You constantly feel like you've got no contacts, you've got no connections to the game because everyone's already established. But I made a decision pretty young in media that I was going to then begin to talk to everyone that didn't have relationships like. You you you knew pretty quickly who talked to who. So I was like, okay, instead of talking to the CEO or the chair, I'm going to go talk to the assistant coach

• 9:52Speaker 01

  or the the guy that's the C O O and build relationships with them. Because at some point they will move up the food chain and they'll remember that you took the time and effort to get to know them. Now, of course, you know, there are others that you need to get along with, guys like Nick Politis and what. But my relationship, my relationship with Nick wasn't as good as it was for the first 10 years because he had people he trusted. And until you earn that trust and until you show them that you can be trusted, they don't, they feel like they don't need you. What, why would they when they've got Andrew Webster or they've got Phil Rothfield or they've got other people in the game? Why do they need me? And I guess the more you move up, the more you your reputation improves in the game, the more they start to think, okay, well, I can trust this guy or I do need this guy.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  And perfect example, I think with Nick Politis is we spent a lot of time together in Las Vegas, in L A. Yeah, in twenty four and.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  I was there.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, you you I guess you get to see people for who they are when you're in that environment. You know, not twenty four seven, but we were together a lot and.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  I've got a lot of respect for Nick and I feel like. Yeah, being in that environment with him and being who I was helped build that relationship.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Well, you you got to the top of the food chain though, in that regard. Um, you taught me Nick Pilatus, I mean, obviously, Verandis, um, Abdo, because they gave you a job. You know, they gave you a current appointment. Um, you got to meet player managers.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Players themselves.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  You had a relationship with players themselves. Um, other journalists, you know, other journalists are pretty important to me. You can't have, you can't, you can't have enemy type status with people.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Out of all those categories though, let's talk about chairmans of clubs, because you know, that most of them made the ultimate decision. Most of them, um, player managers, particularly the high profile ones, um, other journalists. Which area was the most challenging for you in terms of, um, what you can believe or who you can believe out of those?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Um, probably player managers. I think for the first chunk of my journalism career, I sort of avoided

• 11:56Speaker 01

  dealing a lot with agents because I felt like they just wanted you to run their agenda. And that's not everyone, but my general thought was this was going to be more difficult to get the truth than it was out of people in club land. So I gravitated towards CEOs and chairmans, which gave me that grounding and and networking in the game that really helped me. And then as I sort of, I think going on TV helped me with my profile and then people wanted to talk to you a bit more.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  There's a channel on telly.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Channel Nine. And yeah, you started to deal with a lot more with agents. But by that stage, I knew who the ones you could trust, who the ones you don't get along with or you don't want to, uh, take their word for things because they might be just manipulating you to get a better outcome for their clients, which I can understand. Good luck to you.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Their clients have been the players.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Their clients are the players. They need to do what's best for them. But I made a decision with a, uh, quite a few agents that I didn't want to deal with them because I felt like it was always on their terms and that wasn't in my best interest to, to do what was best for them. I needed to do what was best for our readers, and which was provide the truth.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Maybe you could explain to our audience, um, uh, why a player manager would want to, um, get you to, uh, get on your good side in relation to a player. Either get you to speak about a player on, you know, a hundred percent footy, whatever it happens to be, or write a great article in the City Morning Herald about them. What is it about a player manager? What are they trying to achieve?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Oh, sometimes you're trying to create leverage where there isn't, you know, they want to create interest. They'll tell you that, you know, we've got this club that's interested in my player when that might not be the case. They'll say that this player is worth this amount. We've got an offer for this amount because it helps them in negotiations with another club and. Some people might be happy to do that. I wasn't, I wasn't happy to peddle someone else's agenda because.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  But how do you get it if you are, you aren't?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Cause that's, cause I would then ring the club. I'd always double check. If someone's telling me we've got interest from, I don't know, let's just use the Roosters for example. The Roosters are interested in this player. I would ring Nick or I would ring Trent Robinson. I would ring someone at the club and say, are you in for this person? And then I would check that and then I would ring. Sometimes I'd just ring the play directly if that was someone I got along with. So I didn't just settle for what I was told from the agent. And maybe that pissed a few agents off, but it, that didn't bother me because. Yeah, I said to you, there's more, more than one way to get information than if you haven't got a relationship or don't want a relationship with someone. There are other ways to find that out.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Would you actually record all your conversations or write notes down and build like a doc, let's call it a profile on

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  players and on managers on whatever. Did you, you just sort of like build stuff up?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Um.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Or was it all kept up here in your head?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  A lot of it's through my, I obviously take notes and yeah, I'm very big on writing lists of things I need to do. And even every year, like sometimes you find yourself forgetting, not forgetting in a way where you just completely forgot about that person, but because you have to get through so many people that you ring. You, someone might slip your mind. So every, every year I would read, I'd get my spreadsheet, go by club, everyone that I talked to at that club. And write it out, times it by whatever it is, seventeen, sixteen clubs. And I would make sure that I've got that list so that on a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday, I knew that I had to call this person to maintain that relationship. You'd constantly, I would be on the phone from the moment I woke up to the moment, you know, sort of to try and get the kids down. Making sure, sometimes there's no point to the call, just saying hello, hey Mark, what's happening latest?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Most of those calls would yield absolutely nothing, but there'd be one call that would, someone would say, have you heard this? Have you heard that? And that leads to a story and um, it was important for me to keep, keep a relationship with all those people and um.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Just on the job itself though, like and my wife would probably be able to tell you this. It's, it is difficult to be able to be switched on all the time, every day. That job requires you to be in a constant state of paranoia.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Better because I'm being dicked around.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, not, not even that, just, I wanted to win. Like my competitive instinct when I wanted to play rugby league was I want to win. And I, I brought that into journalism and I hated losing more than, I hated losing more than winning sometimes.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  And what's losing in journalism then?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Another newspaper get, it would eat me. Yeah, if, if the Telegraph beat me to a story, it would really affect me.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Really?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a lot. And, and, and not in a healthy way either, like, and that's why I sort of felt a little bit towards the end. I probably wasn't in the right headspace. I was just so obsessed with making sure that we won or that I didn't get beaten. And that I wanted to be the best, that it probably affected everything else. And then maybe my family life and, you know, the kids, like, even though I was with them a lot because it allowed flexibility to work from home. I was constantly on edge, constantly thinking, and I wasn't present, I never felt present.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  You're preoccupied.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, because if you, if you don't answer your phone once, you don't know what you're gonna miss.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And if you try and switch off for a little bit, you miss something. And I got to a point where I was actually, you know, pretty burnt out, Mark, like I was pretty fatigued at the end. And I could have done it for the rest of my life, I loved it, but I, I, I just felt if I kept going that way, I'd burn out. And when the opportunity presented itself, probably, to be honest with you, it's been a pretty, uh, demanding few months in this job, but it's a different. I feel like it's a bit more on my terms. I control what I'm doing, we control what we're doing.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  You're also responsible for what you don't do.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Well, that's right.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the flip side of it.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  And you haven't hit that part of the, of the journey yet.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Cause I want to talk to you, just, let's talk about the, the job itself. Has, has anyone in your family ever had, had you do a paper?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  No, so the first time I went.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Most foreign place in the world for you then?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went in twenty seventeen, I was at NRL dot com and I went and covered the Prime Minister's game over there.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Which was an eye opener. And then I went back this year, uh, sorry, last year for the first time with Andrew Abdo and Ray Dib and, um, the Chiefs guys that were there. And.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Honestly, I went there as a journo. I had no thought whatsoever.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  You were invited as a journalist.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was there for the Sydney Morning Herald, writing a story about what it was going to be like for the Chiefs when they move in. And one thing led to another. Uh, two months later, I was in London with Peter Valanis and Andrew Abdo. And there were conversations around, would you be interested in working at the NRL? I'm like, it's probably not for me working at the NRL. But then they threw up P and G. And I was, I remember I was at the hotel with them in London, uh, for the Ashes tour. And my first instinct was, what do you mean, Pete? Like, what are you talking about? You know? I, I, I don't, my initial reaction was, I don't want that life for my kids. Now, when I say that, I don't mean the country's not good enough. I'm just said, you know, you know, it's like with the WOG background and families.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  It's all about family and cousins and grandparents and everyone's together and aunties and uncles. I didn't want my kids not to grow up around that. But it wasn't till I stopped and actually thought about what this opportunity would do for my children and my family in terms of such an incredible, humbling experience for them. Um, and being able to do something that I always dreamt of doing, but never thought it was realistic. Like, who else gets to build their own footy club from the ground up, you know? And I've loved every minute of it. And when, when they put it on the table, initial reaction was, no, no, I can't. But my wife actually said to me, like, think about what this could do for you, for our family, for the kids. And we've sort of been through, it's been a rough few years for like, from a family point of view. My daughter's been pretty ill from when she was young.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  So that was a big consideration for us. She's got juvenile arthritis.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  What's that mean? Ju- is like?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  So when, so basically the inflammation of the joints.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Uh, it's an autoimmune disease. So she was 11 months old when she was diagnosed. We had no idea what was going on. They thought it was leukemia. They thought it was a heart condition. We were in hospital throughout the COVID period, which was an absolute nightmare. She spent a large chunk of her life in, in hospital. And she struggled for years, like, simple things like rolling over in bed. I had to physically roll her in the middle of the night. She couldn't move. Changing her nappy was agony. So it's been a rough journey for the family, but she's in a good place now. And so that fear's in your head. It's like, she's still medicated. We still have to treat her. What if we go over there and things just unravel?

• 19:52Speaker 00

  And I need a hospital or something.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's right. Like she's, if you saw her, you wouldn't notice that she was um diagnosed with juvenile arthritis right now. She's doing well, but as parents were like, are we doing the wrong thing by her, you know? So all these thoughts going through your head and I don't know, it just took a while to come to the decision, but I honestly believe this experience for the kids is going to be something that they'll cherish for the rest of their lives.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  What got her over the line? Like, who, who was the most influential person? Was it Landis? Or, I mean, who do you turn to to get external advice apart from your wife, of course?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously I'm close to Peter, but it's different in this situation. They're the ones offering you the job.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  He's, he's negotiating, he's on the other side of the table.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  He's on the other side of it, you know? I'm pretty fortunate. I've got some really good mentors for me, um, someone you alluded to earlier in David Ginjel.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Um, who's been enormous for me from a media perspective, but also in guiding me through that. Uh, he was a sounding board for me. Um, Matt Cameron, the Panthers CEO. He's someone that I've, he overlooked me as a young kid coming through the paramedic system, didn't pick me, but that's all right. Won't go there, won't go there.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  How dumb was that?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, didn't want me to play. Um, picked a couple of guys named Trent Hudson and Chris Keating over me. But anyway, he's, he was proven right. But I, um, I've got a lot of respect for what he's done at Penrith and he's someone that I spoke a lot about what this role would be like, how it would work, could I actually do it? Um, so his advice, Adam Druisi at the Bulldogs, the chairman there.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  And also the, also the chairman of, um, uh, Quantum.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. He's someone that's been, that I spoke to. I was actually in England with him at the time. Uh, we're at the Liverpool game, we're at Liverpool versus Aston Villa Premier League and I sat down with him, my kids were with me, we were watching the game and I sort of had a chat with him about the potential of doing this. So guys like that I have a lot of respect for. Um, I hope I'm not forgetting anyone. There's obviously a lot of guys in the game that you build a relationship with. Ian Fuge, my former editor, Ben Cody at the Herald. Guys like that were huge for me.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  And what, what got you there?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 21:55Speaker 00

  What was the moment?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  I just, just asked myself one question. How would I feel if someone else got this right? If I didn't do it and someone else got it? I thought I would regret it for the rest of my life if I didn't give it a crack.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Feel like someone to get in the story you did, you should have got yourself.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Someone else got the job.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I knew I wanted to do it. I, I, it was just the challenge of family that was keeping me from doing it. And when I felt better for my wife about it, and when the kids, well, my eldest was excited and the young ones didn't quite wanna leave their friends from school. But yeah, that's why when I went last week, it felt good, it felt right.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Before we get on to the, um, the Chiefs, um, in your journalistic career, mate, you had some crazy dust ups. You had some, um, great moments. What are some of the great, give me, give me a couple of the great moments you're really happy to cover? Like, you know, in terms of fun, like cool stuff.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  I went to Wimbledon and covered Wimbledon a couple of times. I went to Olympics and covered Brazil and Paris. Probably the highlight in terms of absolute fun and like the Jared Haynes story when he went to the NFL.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I got to go over there for six weeks.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And cover that. And that was, you remember what it was like at the time? It was the story of the country.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was hectic.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It was, it, it's all anything anyone wanted to know about was what was happening with Jared. Was he gonna make it?

• 23:11Speaker 00

  And would he make it?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. And to be there and I got exclusive with him over there. I went to NFL headquarters in New York. It was such an amazing experience. It was just before I had my first child and never covered anything like that. Like I just, that was unbelievable. But in terms of personal satisfaction, one that probably you know really well, um,

• 23:35Speaker 01

  she, helping share Angus Crichton's story.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Did that with him, sat down in L A after what he'd been through, um.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  You're talking about his mental health?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Mental health issues, yep. The manic episodes that he had, sitting down with him, watching him pour his heart out for the first time. Sitting down on camera and as he's reduced to tears, reliving the hell that he went through. And then seeing the reaction after it came out. And then just the overwhelming amount of support that he was experiencing from everyone that had his back, who didn't quite understand what he was going through.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Who watched that story or read that story and felt wow, like having an impact on his life and helping him feel better about what he'd been through was enormous for me. Like just that, you know that you can write the big stories or break the big story about Sam Burgess being off, you know, Jason Demetrius, special treatment around Latrell, all that stuff. They're big stories and they create a lot of attention. But to see what you do for someone's life, like Angus Crichton, that was special.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Why do you think Angus decided to talk to you about it? What is it? I mean, how had they go? How did you go through that process? Like, mate, do you want to talk about this? You pick up the phone, talk to him or?

• 24:47Speaker 01

  I actually rang Trent Robinson and the Roosters when it was, because I went on the World Cup just before he went to France and he obviously struggled in France and ended up in a mental ward over in France. When I got back, I got wind of the fact that he was struggling and that he was in a really, really dark place.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Sort of manic for a while.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was manic for a while. He was medicated. He was in and out of, out of mental rehab. And I rang Robbo and the Roosters and I was, said, this is the information I have. This is the story that I want to write. And speaking to them, I understood just how,

• 25:29Speaker 01

  just how, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Sensitive.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, sensitive, but just, he was on edge. Like, and something like that could tip him over the edge.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  That's what I mean. The whole thing was sensitive.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  It was. And the club explained that to me and the sensitivities around it. And I made a decision as a journalist that I wouldn't write the story. We let back, we let it go. Obviously, in our industry, you want to tell the big stories. It was a big story. But I also was respectful of the fact that doing this was going to send somebody into a place that wasn't good for them.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Is there some sort of journalistic standard that you can make that decision? Or is it the other standard the other way? Like, is there a story you've got to report it? Like, I don't understand.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  I think I've been lucky enough that my editors have always backed me to make the right call.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Some editors might force you into writing a story. No, it's a story. You write it. That's it. Whereas in that situation, they said, you do what you think is right. We'll back you. And that decision was not to write it. And the manager, Dave Rawlings at the time, I think he respected the fact that we didn't do it. So when the time came that he was in a much better place. When the opportunity came down for Angus to sit down and tell his story, I think they remembered and respected the fact that I didn't do it when I had the chance to originally. So when, you know, I had a little bit of a relationship with Angus, I wasn't close to him. I remember I went for a coffee with him, it was during, it was in LA, we went to just somewhere down near the University of, um, UCLA.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  They, they, they were, they were training at UCLA.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, UCLA, we went for a coffee for about three hours. And he was quite emotional, he was quite emotional. And then we sat back here at the SFS. And that's when he, on camera for Channel Nine, and he poured his heart out and started crying, going through the story. And, and as I said, like, they're the ones that you'll remember as a journo.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  When you, when you, I was gonna say, when you sat back and watched the show itself, um, how did you feel about it?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  It's, you're more worried about the reaction than the actual story. Like, you, you look at, like, I'm not one to look at comments about your stories or about you. But I was looking at that because I was worried about how he would be perceived and I wanted him to be, I wanted him to look at that and think, I made the right decision trusting this guy.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  And it's okay.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  To tell my story.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  And it's okay.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  And that it's okay.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  So I was really like checking everything, reading what everyone was saying. And to see the outpouring emotion from the rugby league community, not just the rugby league community, everyone get behind and rally behind him. And then to see him then go on and play the best football of his career, I, I reckon that period.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that totally was. Well, that's when he won the best, the best player of, you know, the, in the, uh, Save Origin.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Origin series, yeah. Yeah. And he was probably one of your best players, if not the best player that year.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  He was probably the best back row in the competition that year.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  So to see that all flow on, yeah, it, it's so satisfying. It's, yeah, it's saying that, as I said, you don't forget that.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  What about some of the shitty moments?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Some shitty moments. I remember one when I was younger, actually, the first time I got sprayed. Steve Crawley.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  He was, um, he was at nine. We weren't, Harold wasn't owned by nine at the time. And it was in the days of. The NRL season was moving across into the cricket period and round one clashed with that, remember the tri-series they used to play?

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Clashed with the final, I think it might have been Australia, Sri Lanka. And I remember I wrote the story about Channel 9 had a big decision to make whether to go with Broncos, Eels on the main channel or Australia, Sri Lanka final. And we did that story, which, you know, it's a fair story. The next day, the bosses were like, all right, you now need to go to David Ginge, who I didn't know at the time, he's the CEO, don't worry about Steve Crawley, you need to go to the top and find out what's going on, get a quote from him. And I did that, yeah, cool, no problem. Got the number for David Ginge, called him. I can't even remember whether he answered or not, but not long after Steve Crawley rang me and he gave me an absolute gob full for going over the top of him. And I just remember being stunned, I'm like, oh, I didn't meet, like, I was just like, this is the first sprout I've ever copped in, in media.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  And yeah, that one lived with me for a while because I was like, do I really want to do this? I'm upsetting people the way that I upset him. But you learn to develop things, Gino, over the time.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Do you cop any sprays from anybody else?

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Um.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Didn't you and Gus have a bit of a?

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that was, I wouldn't say it was a spray, we had the argument on air. I actually, I did cop sprays from Gus before that, like when I, when he was at Penrith, for things that, some things that I didn't even, that I didn't, didn't even do. But Gus and I, I actually have a lot of, like, I do have a lot of respect for Gus. I used to come rush home after training, footy training and record his origin, his pre-match spiel, right? And I used to just remember and recite it. Big part of what I did and wanted to do was because of, of Gus. But I also, in my role, had to write things that he didn't like. And we, I think we fell out over the time of, um, Ivan Cleary getting the job at Penrith. Because I was the first to report that Ivan had agreed to terms and Gus rang me abusing me about

• 30:25Speaker 01

  that, saying it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. But I had pretty good mail that it was right. And he didn't, I didn't realise at the time that I was probably caught up in a power play internally from guys at Panthers who probably wanted Gus gone because part of Ivan coming back was to sort of usher Gus out the door. In breaking that story, that triggered a whole, it was a snowball effect of, of people starting to sideline Gus. I didn't realise that at the time. And um, I, I think Gus sort of felt I was aligned with the other guys and um, yeah, couldn't trust.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  What do you do with someone like that? What do you do when, when someone like Gus Gil, Phil Gil, and he can talk and he can, he can give a spray and he can argue. He's very good on his feet. Like the bloke should have been a barrister or something like that. No, he should have been in another life.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  He's incredible. He just.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  Well, he actually studied law for a while. So he would have been a great barrister in an argument, in, in argument in a courtroom. What do you do in that situation? What does Michael Chalmers, do you just cop a tweet?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Um.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Or do you go back?

• 31:21Speaker 01

  There was different, I, I, I just, in that one, I was confident. Like I, in that one, I knew that was right.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  You standing your ground?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I stood my ground. I said, I'm sorry Gus, but my mail's right. Yeah. What can I, whether he knew at that time or not, I don't know. I didn't realise I set the power play of, of them wanting to move him on in the background, but um, he probably felt undermined that I was part of that and that I had aligned with the other side of the organisation. So I can understand why he didn't like me, but I, I, if the story's right, the story's right. I'll stand my ground, but if I do something wrong by someone, well then it's my responsibility to apologise. But in that situation, the story was right.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  But what do you think then, when, when you go, let's go fast forward a few years, more closer to more recent times? You know, some of these people of their reputations, do you think to yourself, um, there's a story about Lucky Galvin. Gus will never forget what happened in the past. Do you think these people carry this through as part of their profiling of Michael Chalmers?

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And so especially someone as powerful as, as Gus, like he's got his, Gus has been around the game a long time. He has relationships with, with who he needs to have relationships with in the media. And I realised a long time ago that I was never going to be in that circle and, and I became okay with that.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Well, you would have if you had stayed as long as he did.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Well, if I was there that whole time.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Like he is in his sixties. Like if you had to stay there as long as.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  If I, yeah, ma- maybe, maybe. But I, I realised like, my, someone I've got a lot of time for is Danny Widler.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Very close to Danny. He's someone that I consider a mentor and someone when you asked about who I was talking to about taking the job on, Danny was someone that I was talking to. So I know Danny and Gus are close and I was never gonna be his Danny. I never wanted to be. So I have a responsibility when I'm sitting on that panel, as much as I sit there and think you don't belong here, an impostor, you're sitting next to Cameron Smith, Paul Gallon. And Phil Gould, like, what are you doing here? The reality is the only reason I am there is because I need to do my job. And that is sometimes to question the people that are on that panel is to provide information they might not want out there. That's why I get to sit on this chair. And so that night that unfolded, that was my job.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  The reason I was there and the whole rugby league world was asking the questions that that I asked, that I pushed on. It wasn't because I don't like Gus. Actually, I like Gus. He doesn't like me, but I like Gus. But it's my job in that situation to ask the question and that's what happened.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  It's interesting because you've got to be pretty gutsy to maintain your role, you know, you knew what your role was. You knew your role was to challenge. The conventional discussion that's going to be happening between all the other panelists who probably were more on Gus's side than say on your side. In terms of the discussion, how bigger do you get like nerves in your guts? I mean, how do you feel like you get?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  I honestly, I didn't think it would play out the way it did then, like it.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  You just thought it was a question?

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think what provoked him was when he said, no other CEO or GM of a club has to come out here and answer these questions. And I. My first reaction, whether or not it was rude or not, my first reaction was, well, that's your choice. And I think that set him off because, you know, he's obviously paid by nine and whatnot. So that was, I think, what triggered his. Reaction to my questioning was his probably not liking that I said that. But it's my job, Mark, like. If I backed away in that situation, I would become the laughing stock of rugby league media. Like in that situation, it's the biggest story in the game, probably the biggest story of.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  One of the biggest stories, if not the biggest that I've covered, that whole fallout from Galvin that fell into Benji, into Richo, into Gus. And it was huge.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  It was a mess.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  It was a mess.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  So if I don't do my job in that situation, then I'm letting my work down, letting myself down. So I had no regrets on it. Unfortunately, Gus didn't like it and I haven't really spoken to him since, but it's part of the job.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting because I've been thinking about you now as you're speaking about becoming a general manager or being a general manager of a of a new club. So basically, you've got to be a business person now, not not just a journalist.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  One of the really key things here is, of course, is recruiting. You're like, you've got to have a team.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  You've got to have a good team. And one of the things that struck me about you is that I think, mate, I'd like to know what you think about this, but I think you're probably, over time, not only be be good at getting the stories and, you know, being courageous and, you know, standing up to various people. But it seems as though you've been a pretty good, become a pretty good assessor of a football player. I mean, you're not a coach, but as G M, you're going to have to be close to the managers. You're going to have know which players for which positions to to choose. You're going to have limited supply chain because a lot of them don't want to leave where they are. You have to pick a halfback that's going to work with the five eight, it's going to work with the centre, it's going to work with the winger. You have to know all these parts.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Do you reckon you've accumulated enough enough over time, you know, with what the current stock is? Do you reckon you've accumulated enough to put it together and and how do you put something like together once you start?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  I think, well, I can't speak on the N R L's behalf, but I think the reason that Peter and Andrew wanted me to do it was because

• 36:38Speaker 01

  I would, if I didn't know it myself, I knew the people who could provide the answers. Like, I'm not an expert in rugby league, I'm not going to get involved in coaching, but I could tell you straight away if a player was lazy, how they trained, what their off-field habits were, were they, you know, put them as people, what their partners were like.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  Well, they're all data points, they're all data points, all of them.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And they're so important to us more than any other club because we're all living together. So the kind of person that we wanted to bring in, which is why the Jerome Law is signing for us, it just ticked every single box, every box, like football.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  What are the, give us some of the boxes.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Well, let's just take football aside for a second because that.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Put it aside.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  It it speaks for itself, his football point of view, but.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I wanted to prove a point. Everyone's saying you're not going to get anyone who's a family man over there. Well, I thought the opposite, to be honest. I thought, well, why not? Like, you're going to live in this village with other kids. The kids are going to have their time of their lives, you know, they're going to be living together, playing all afternoon, riding their bikes around footy all afternoon with other kids. Sounds like a dream for the kids, to be honest with you.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  After school?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  After school. Yeah, but also in school. They want to go together in school as well, you know, they're going to go to the same schools together. So if I could, if we could change the narrative around this not being a family club, it was important. So Jerome coming over there with his three kids and his wife said to everyone straight away, if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. That was our first tick.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Said to other players?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. The other part of it was culturally, like, I know he's not Papua New Guinea, but he's a proud Samoan man. Being over there, he kept saying about, this reminds me of Samoa, being back, being back home. This team is not just a team of P and G. Of course, it's based in P and G and it's a very strong P and G presence. But there's also $240 million of that $600 million the government are allocating that's going to the Pacific pathways and strategy. Right? Going to Fiji, Samoa, Tonga.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  A lot of money going to that region. So Prime Minister James Marape has, he's been big on this being the team of the Pacific, not just the team of P and G. So we ticked that box with Jerome Law. There's no better advocate for the, for the Polynesian community than Jerome. I've known him since I was, since he was a teenager. I've covered him. I know what he's like. He cops a bad rap or he did cop a bad rap from sections of the media as being arrogant. Whatever you wanted to call him. I've seen him close. He's not arrogant. He's a good person who's always gives his time to others around him. He's the last guy off the field. He actually is someone who embraces.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  You mean after a game?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  After a game.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  He'll go and sign, sign stuff.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Last guy every time, but also in the community, gives his time to everyone. Some people do it because it's a show and they have to. Some people do it because they care. And I knew with Jerome, that if we got him to P and G, that care factor that he's got, we'd win him over because he would see just how much it would mean to the people of Papua New Guinea, seeing him there. So when we're in the stand and they're chanting Luwai, Luwai, in that moment he's sitting there. I had goosebumps. He said to me, man, I had goosebumps. I knew that would resonate with him because I knew he's the kind of person that would take that responsibility on his shoulder and want to carry the country with him. So that was another one. He wasn't just doing it for the cheque. Let's be, let's be fair to him. Tax free is appealing.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  But there's more to it. And he's the kind of guy, that legacy and doing stuff for people is important to him.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Because that's what I was going to try to do with Michael. How do you build a, a culture of players that aren't just doing it for the tax rate cheque? That they're actually doing it because they want to be together, they want to be in Papua New Guinea, they want to have their families brought up there. Man, how, how do you do that? And, and where, and where does Willie fit into all this?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Willie's big on that. So, and that's the other thing. Signing Willie is a young coach with young kids.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  But a good, a bit of good, a good track record in the UK.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. But he, but he's bringing his family with him. You know, his son's going to live there. His wife's coming over. We are creating, I say this to everyone, everyone talks about, oh, we're a family club. No, no, no. We are a, we, we are a family club more than anyone. We're a real family club. Because we're going to live together, we're going to train together, we're going to play together. Everyone's together all the time, which presents us challenges. As a certain person that you need in that environment. If you get the wrong people, it'll unravel pretty quickly.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  It'd be a nightmare.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  It'd be a nightmare. And that means homework. And I mean this disrespect, this, I don't mean this disrespectfully. But part of my job isn't just homework on the player. It's homework on the partner, on what their environment's going to be like, what they're going to be like in that environment where we're living together. Because if you don't fit into that, and you're going to be problematic, then you'll cause us to be unsuccessful.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  And also you don't have, you don't have as happy a life, nor does your missus.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Or your family.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Because they'll see it.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  No, that's right. And, and money will only, I'm sorry, but if, if you're just coming for money and you're locking yourself up in a room and you have no intention of embracing the community and taking that responsibility of lifting that country on your shoulders, then you're going to have a miserable time. And it means you're going to be a terrible footballer. It means you're going to be part of a problem that causes us an even bigger problem. I'm not worried about the football programme. I'm confident their football programme will be. The players will be fine. But if they're coming home to wives and kids who are unhappy, that's that's game over. Like, forget it, you know? And that's why it's our responsibility now to employ people whose sole responsibility it is to make sure that the kids are happy, that they got their programmes to play. There's no Saturday sport.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  They're not going down and playing for the local club in PNG. It just doesn't exist. So we've got to do sporting programmes for them. We've got to provide the young girls dancing classes. The partners have got boot camps. When we go away and play in Sydney one weekend and the wives and children are still back at home, what are they doing? Are they going to the Great Barrier Reef? It's a 45 minute flight to Cairns. Are they going up north? Are they going to the high? What are they doing? We need full time people whose sole purpose it is is to make sure that they've got a purpose, they've got enjoyment, and that they're living their life as normal as they can.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  That all comes under you, the general manager?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Well, technically, no, but yes, because I, to me, it fits hand in hand. The family's wellbeing and the players' wellbeing, that role is intertwined. So my focus is to make sure we're the right people. Because if the wives and kids are happy, the players are happy. It is interlinked.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  What about recruitment of people to work in the joint as opposed to players? As opposed to talent? Well, these people are talented too. How do you go about building that talent pool within, you know, within your organisation? Because you're the boss.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm very lucky. Willie Peters is going to be outstanding for us, right? It's, he's a coach that would have been the next cab off the rank, no doubt about it. He's won, he won the treble in the Super League last year for Hull KR. Then he backed it up this year and won the World Club Challenge against the Brisbane Broncos, which is no mean feat. Like, we know how good the Broncos are. He's worked with the Australian team, the Ashes, last year as an assistant coach. So for us, that was an important piece of the puzzle. A guy who I believe in that environment, when we're all living together, will unite people. He's done that in my homework, speaking to people at Hull KR. I actually rang Jared Murray-Hargreaves when I was doing my homework. Someone you're close to, former Roosters prop. And I asked Jared about what he was like. And the first thing he spoke to me about, forget football,

• 43:28Speaker 01

  was what his wife did for his family, what Willie's wife did for Jared and his family.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  When Jared came over.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yep. The effort they went through. And I saw it firsthand this week in Papua New Guinea when we were there. Kira, Willie's wife, is going to be very, very important for us because she is as passionate about her role, which is an unofficial role, about the wives and the partners and making it harmonious for everyone. She's going to be really important. We were caught mucking around. I was calling her the first lady, but she is. She is really, really important for us. So it was a package deal. You get Willie, you get Kira, and that is part of what we build.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  I mean, Willie's credentials are great. I mean, former footballer, but has done fantastically in terms of rugby league success in the UK. But what about below that? Because I mean, you can't just have Michael Chalmers and Willie Peters. I mean, everything below it, what's your bench, your bench strength look like relative to managing the business?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's, we're putting those pieces together now, right? Strong assistant coaches, strong head of performance, and that filters all the way down through. Now, we're also mindful of the fact that the whole reason this team has been brought in is because it needs to take Pup and you get it to a level that it doesn't exist at the moment when it comes to sport. We need to educate the administrators, you need to educate the coaches, and to educate the players about what it takes to be a professional, what it takes to make it in the NRL. So there's going to be a certain percentage of people in our organisation who will be Pup and Guinean. That's the whole point of this team, is to help unite PNG and provide them with the right tool to develop the country in the way they want to head. And James Marape, the Prime Minister of PNG, knows just how important the Chiefs are to doing that for his country. I think it's like a 35% of

• 45:08Speaker 01

  the population can read and write. School's not compulsory. Now they're making it compulsory. If you're going to play rugby league for your school, you need to attend, you need to have it marked off, you need to have it ticked every day.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Go to class.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Because you won't play rugby league, because rugby league is a religion to them. So if you take that away from them, they won't be happy. So school, suddenly they're all at school, the attendance rates are going through the roof.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Really?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yep, because they have to.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  And he's setting up academies, Joey Grima, he's setting up academies all across the country. Most people wouldn't know this, but in Port Moresby, that's obviously the major city of the country, but you cannot access any other part of the country unless you fly there. There's no roads, there's no infrastructure in place. So the logistical challenges for us as a country to get a football team together. It's really difficult because you can't just say, like you are, come down the road. If someone lives an hour and a half away, you can't just bring a kid from the country like you do here to pray in Penrith. You've got to fly them, you've got to relocate them away from their villages who have experienced nothing of a city in their whole life. The logistical challenges for us are a lot harder. But it's also part of the magic of what we're trying to do is, is, is actually not just a football.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  It's, it's far bigger than a rugby league team. It transcends that. It's changing a country.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  I watched when my kids were young at school, they had a couple of Papua New Guinean kids playing rugby union with them. Mate, these guys are so talented.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  And tough, like, like hard as nails.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Like literally hard as nails, like, I mean physically, their bodies.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  It's like nothing hurts them.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Do you, you get excited about the thought of discovering some unbelievable Papua New Guinean talent?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, for sure. And the other difference, Mark, is the fact that they don't have, A, the resources, like, simple things.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Or a pathway.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but just balls, boots, they don't, they just don't have that readily accessible like we do. They don't have the man hours, there's no community teams, there's no clubs that you can go play for and train on the weekend. It doesn't exist. They play wherever they can, whenever they can, and it's not organised. Well, that's our job. And that's what the PNG RFL at the moment are putting so much money into providing them with just simple tools to get there. Man hours that goes into development where there was a graph, the amount of man hours that goes into a kid by the age of 16 in PNG compared to Australia. The gulf is so big between them because they're training three, four times a week. Yeah. You can't compare it to that. They, some of these kids get to the age of 18 and have never worn a pair of boots. Like they're learning how to play football in boots. Like that's the sort of thing we're talking about over there. So.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  If we can close that gap, and which they're doing at the moment with the academies that are in around the country.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  So these are new academies?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. Last two or three years, there's, there's eight of them now at the moment around the country for boys and girls.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Is that NRL initiative or?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  It's, well, it's funded, partly funded by the NRL and the PNG Rugby League and the Australian PNG Government. There's. Because they see how important it is, but we're now going to come over the top of that and start up an elite academy in P and G in Port Moresby. Then we can pick the eyes out of the ones all around the country and say, yep, we've identified you. You come into our system and we start to develop him so that, you know, it might only be two of every group that we progress into the NRL. But at least there's a chance, and that's what I said to him from when I arrived. People in this country no longer have to look elsewhere to achieve greatness. They can achieve greatness here in P and G. And that's what we want to do. And in 10 years' time, when everyone's saying, oh, it's tax free, it's unfair. Well, in 10 years' time, if the mark of success is going to be whether or not

• 48:28Speaker 01

  we are sustainable on our own with P and G kids coming through the system without the benefit of that tax free incentive.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  So can we just talk about the tax free incentive? I mean.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  I hear you're going to like that tax free talk.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Well, I think we got to touch on because.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  You have to, yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  I mean, um, I mean, some of the club is complaining as you would expect. And by the way, you know, for those people who don't know, rugby league is, it's always, someone's always complaining.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Self-interest.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  It's totally self-interest. Um, but they're saying that, um, the salary cap is unfair in that effective, your salary cap could be looked at as being double. Because like if, you know, if, um, Penrith's paying a million dollars to a player and he's, and that player's got to pay a half million dollars in tax, that player's only really receiving a half million dollars net.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  Um, but the same salary cap Penrith has as you have. But if that individual goes to P and G, that individual can earn a million bucks.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  So net.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Um, and probably have a whole lot of other stuff paid for too as well, I guess. Um, you know, like where they're living and all those sorts of things. Um, how do you, how do you counter that argument?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Well, we've got the same salary cap, right? And we haven't paid Jerome Lui less than what he's done at the Tigers. Like we're paying market value. The NRL will not register that contract. If I wanted to sign him, let's just say for argument, say he wanted to sign him for half that money because you deem that it's tax free and he can make the same amount. The NRL is not going to register.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  These nepositions are the same.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  It's the same. The NRL is not going to register that. So we're still paying for market value. Yes, I understand the notion that the player is benefiting from it, which makes it more appealing for him to come to the Chiefs. But you also have to have some sort of benefit for the player. Cause if this is as important it is to the Australian government, the P and G government and the NRL to get it right, it needs to be a success. So if you're going to uproot somebody, and I had this conversation earlier about moving my family away from their family. If you're gonna do that, and you're gonna move to Papua New Guinea, and you're gonna be living in a resort. And the simple things in life that you had in Sydney or Brisbane or wherever you are, no longer exist. Then of course, you're gonna have to compensate the players for that, right? I, I believe that we are getting, because people want to come, and there's a lot of them that, and they are, they want to come for the paycheck, right?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  But because there are so many of them, we as a club are able then to work out who are the ones that are coming from more than that. Who are our Jerome Lois, who are, yes, they're setting their families up for life, but are also motivated by it. And because there's a high demand for us, for players to come, our phones, honestly, the people who want to come, we're knocking people back right now because we want to be patient. Because we want to make sure that we get the best players. So we're able to pick and choose and do our homework and due diligence on these players to make sure that we have the right type. So the argument I, the argument I make is no, we don't have double the salary cap, we've got the same. We're just, the players are benefiting a lot more and, um, but it needed that. If you want to make it a success, the Australian government, I don't want to get into geopolitics, because that's not my area, and I said I never would, but.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  It's, it's been made very clear to this, by the Australian government, just how important this deal with the PNG government is for the future of this country. You need to make it work.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  And the future of PNG as well.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  And the future of PNG as well, yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  So does the Prime Minister actually talk to you about it? Have you, have you had a discussion with Elba about it?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  No, I haven't, I haven't had a chat with, um, with Elba about it, but I have had a few chats with, um, Prime Minister Murape in PNG about it. About what this, like.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  What does it mean for them?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Everything to them. And that's what, I say this, I think that's what got Jerome across the line. Jerome spent some time with the Prime Minister and he explained just how important rugby league was to actually making change. For a lot of the social issues in that country, just things like. The education, as we touched on, making change the way they respect women, the domestic violence issues, the crime issues. Rugby League is a platform to drive social change because it's the only thing in that country that unites them. There's 850 languages, a thousand tribes.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  You go down the road, right? There's a young kid named Guy Rovaro, he's a young PNG boy, he's currently at the London Broncos. Couldn't speak a word of English, could only speak the language of his tribe. Heads into a national team, he can't speak to the other players. Even though they're from the same country, he only understands the language of his tribe. And the tribes, a lot of people talk about the tension and the crime in PNG. A lot of it is tribal, Mark. Like, I've been to Port Moresby eight or nine times now. You've got no issues there in the city. I have never come across anything. The people have been nothing but loving. Are there issues in the Highlands? Tribal issues, of course. But these players that are going to go over there are going to be adored, they're going to be gods. I likened it to Indian cricketers in India. They're not going to have issues.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Their issue isn't going to be safety, their issue is going to be being swarmed and overwhelmed by love. Because that's what they are. Like, Willie Mason walked onto the beach the other day at Ella Beach, and you know what it's like, he's been out of the game, what, 10, 15 years now, Willie? And these young kids all knew who he was. Some of them wouldn't have been born when he played. Had a young kid run up and say, I'm Willie Mason, my name's Willie. Like, his actual name was Willie Mason, named after him. Like, it's incredible how much they love Rugby League. And honestly, until you go there and experience it, like, if someone said to me, I'll sign a contract, I don't have to go over there. I'm like, red pen.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Because you're not going for the right reasons. You need to see it for yourself to know that it's the right thing. I can't tell you what safety feels like, you need to feel it for yourself. I can't tell you what the people are like, you need to see it for yourself. And if you're not willing to do that, it just says to me you're going for one reason and one reason only, it's for the money.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  The compound, just give us a quick idea of how the compound works. Um, so when will, when will players and families start to arrive? So what's your deadline to get the compound up and ready? What are we talking about a compound? Are we talking about high walls? What are we talking about?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  It's so, it's an existing, it's an existing resort. It's called Airways, right? It's currently a hotel and residence. Exxon Mobil, also one of the biggest companies in the world. A lot of the, their employees live there. They've got a ton of employees who live in the apartments there. So it's got tennis courts, basketball courts, swimming pools, fields, bike tracks, whatever, whatever you need, it's there, right? But what we're building is, well, not we are, what they are building, Airways, and we're going to rent them out. Are eighty brand new apartments, which will be fully furnished and available to the NRL players and staff. So they'll live there. This is not like, it's an eleven hectare site. It's not like you're living behind barbed wire fences that are right in front of your face every second of the day.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  It's an eleven hectare site and it's full of other expats from around the world and it's a hotel.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  So it might be just the footy, footy mob.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  It won't be, it won't be. It's not for everyone. Completely understand that living that way is not for everyone. And even for those who actually do enjoy it, it may have a certain window lifespan that you could be like, okay, I'm done now. Two, three years, I can't live like this. I get that, I get it. The whole point of this is providing the tax incentives is to start it up and make it a success. So it doesn't rely on that in ten years' time. So you look at a club like the Warriors and they're self-sufficient with a lot of New Zealand kids coming through. But we need time to do that. So if all these people are saying it's unfair, this team will fall apart if you don't provide the advantages that we have right now. It will not come off, it will not get off the ground unless you provide incentives for the Australian or New Zealand or English players to come over there and turn this club into a powerhouse, because it will be a powerhouse.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And that not, not just saying because of the tax free. I'm talking about when these kids who have got all this potential in the world, who have developed the right way, have got the right resources and will understand what it takes to be a success. When they have that, the team will be predominantly Papua New Guinean and they'll be successful on their own.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  What worries you the most about all this? In terms of your task as general manager, what are, what's the thing that's sort of keeping you awake at night?

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Honestly, the biggest, our biggest challenge is keeping the partners and kids happy.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  Outside of the players, you mean, yeah?

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  You keep the families happy, they'll be happy.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  I think the football program, we're building a brand new centre of excellence. This, they've started work on our apartments, they already started that.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Willie Peters, fantastic coach, Jerome Lui will attract players. We will, we'll have a competitive team. I'm telling you now, it'll all live and die by what our ability is to keep the wives, partners and kids happy. That means education for them, community work. Everyone's going to have different wants and needs. We need to cater to them because if they're bored or they're unhappy, that's our problem.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  It sounds a little bit like a Truman type environment. Everybody's sort of going to dinner and everyone's going to lunch. I mean, have you had experience with this sort of stuff? I mean, this is all new, probably no one's had experience with this, but building a community, do you see the enormity and perhaps the excitement of the challenge?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Oh, it's huge. It's huge. But that's, I think I didn't experience it, but I've spoken to a lot of clubs about the COVID bubble when they were living and playing in Queensland. Some people hated it. The good clubs loved it. And that's another tick to the box of Jerome Lui is the Panthers boys absolutely loved the COVID bubble. They won a premiership that year. They were such close friends. Their partners became close. Their kids became close. I ran into Dylan Edwards' partner, and Dylan Edwards was contracted, but he lives, he lives not far from me, but I was speaking to her.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Ivan.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  No, no. She, she was telling me how much they, they had the time of their life during that COVID period because they were such a tight knit group. And the proof is in the pudding because they went on a winter comp, Melbourne, the Sunshine Coast as well. They loved their time. So doing my homework with the clubs that actually invest the time and effort into making that a success is part of my job now is to say, okay, what did you do right? What can we implement that you did? Is there a creche for the young kids? What did you do with the kids who needed education? Whatever it might be,

• 58:02Speaker 01

  we need to get to the bottom of what made that a success. But you could, the fund of, for me, from what I can see, it was the people. It was the relationships. And you can see Penrith, they're a connected group. They're a connected group. So that's our job now. And I'm part of my recruitment is to recruit in groups. So that you sign someone, they've got their best mate with them, or they've got their partner's best mates with that person. You've got to recruit in groups because if you're coming isolated and not knowing anyone, it makes it a lot harder.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  And I guess I'm like Jerome Lui too as well. He experienced that period when you're talking about during the COVID period. He knows what he, what he experienced, what he felt, as does his partner, his wife, and probably his family too for that matter. So he can bring a bit of that to BNG.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Well, I I'm not going to speak out of school and talk about players that could be off contract November one, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  Everyone knows who they are.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Who they are, who he's played with, who his close mates are. I know that already that people, just signing Jerome, people want to play with him.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  Do you ring, do you ring Benji up when you, when has it go?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Um, look, it's funny, Benji and I haven't got the closest relationship. Um, we used to be close, I don't know really what happened, but, uh, so that wasn't, you know, I spoke to Benji's manager and I rang the club, spoke to the CEO, but, you know, and Jerome would have done this anyway, but part of the conversation with Jerome was you need to make sure that you do everything respectfully, and he would have done it, by the Tigers, because the moment you set foot in Papua New Guinea, you're not going through unnoticed, that you'll, you'll be spotted the moment you walk off the plane by every single person who walks to that airport. And it happened, it happened. So he needed to make sure that the Tigers were well aware of his visit, and that goes for any other player that we bring. I'll be telling the same thing, you're not going to come in, secret squirrel operation, in and out of the country, it just will not happen.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  So everyone's saying that it was a publicity stunt to, to get Jerome and cameras. You cannot control that. The moment he arrived, it was all over social media around the country.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  What do people watch footy on over there? They have streaming.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  They got more footy on their TV than anywhere else. Like it's footy is, you walk around the place, you go to the yacht club, or you go to the golf course, or wherever it may be you go, there's all the television on.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  What about their homes?

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  They're watching footy.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, everybody watched footy.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Watch footy and they stream it as well. It's, they all live and breathe footy, and I'm not just talking NRL, Super League's on, the local domestic competition, they just sell Exxon Mobil Cups on, the women's game's on. There's so many sporting channels and it's all got rugby league.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  The women play over there as well?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, which, to be fair, has been the biggest change, because, uh, go back five or six years, the, the guys who organised the competitions were like, no, women can't play here, women can't play, it's not, not allowed. But that's, that's a drastic change, and now they're like, they're apologising for the way they behaved all those years ago, and realising just how important it is for women to get a chance as well. And that's going to be part of what we build in the future. Eventually, we'll have an NRLW team as well.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  Wow. It, it, it's funny, like, I'm, I'm just getting heaps of energy from you, like, when, when you were feeling like you were a little jaded with, um, journalism. How do you feel now? Like it just, I mean, if I could just gauge it like you're just about jumping out of the seat.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  I'm buzzing, I'm buzzing. No, I feel bad because the whole promise to my wife and family was that I'd be more present, but at the moment it's been a bit chaotic, but it will, you know, this is the excitement at the start. We want to do a good job. You've only got one shot at nailing the start and I feel like we're doing a pretty good job of that. So, um, this, the momentum's now there to continue. Jerome Llewellyn, Alex Johnston, media, it's now starting the narrative shift from

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Alex Johnston's a great signing.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Oh, he's huge for us, huge for the country.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  You, you just don't know how important he is to the people of Papua New Guinea, what he's done. Um, yeah. Football wise, as I said, you know what he is. He's the greatest finisher of all time. He's got speed. He's going to bring leadership to your, to your dressing room. But he also gives the boys and girls around that country hope that being Papua New Guinean isn't a roadblock, that you could achieve greatness and that's what you want.

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  Do you reckon in the modern game, in the modern history of the modern game, um, do you think the move by the NRL to include PNG is probably one of the most important milestones in NRL history? There are things in life that just keep delivering. The more time goes on, the more you appreciate them. Seventy-five years of Penfolds Grange. Once tasted, never forgotten. Let's keep going.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I think it's, I, I honestly think it's the biggest move the game has ever made. Like if someone said to you 10 years ago, there'll be a team in Papua New Guinea, you would have laughed at them. I would have laughed at them too. You just never, you just never felt like it was possible in my lifetime, your life. I just, you just didn't see it happening. And forget the reasons why it happened for a second. Like everyone's going to say, oh, it's a, I've had this chat with Wadlow, like I'm close to Danny. He's like, I don't, I don't like the, you know, the motive behind this team. It's, it's a political team. If you just put that aside for a second, Papua New Guinea deserve this team. Rugby League is everything to them. It's the only country in the world that's a national sport. They live and breathe it.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  They've got 10 to 12 million people, like it's such a huge pool of of just devoted rugby league fans. They deserve this opportunity. And whether or not it would have happened or not, it doesn't matter to them. It's happened. And I think right round as a game, everyone's got a responsibility to help make it work. Forget about tax incentives. Getting behind it is the best thing for rugby league. And I said that at the press conference. It's short sighted to think that. You know, why, why, uh, suddenly it's unfair because they've got tax incentives. If rugby league in Papua New Guinea thrives, the whole game thrives. I know it's not Souths or Roosters or Penrith's responsibility to make that happen. But as a game, everyone will benefit from it. I genuinely believe that. The amount of money that we brought into the game.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  The amount of opportunities, if we want to truly be a global sport, this is. I know it's only one island country, but it says to the rest of the world, like if you could do it in a developing country. Why not then aspire to take this globally and then continue on?

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  And I also think, Michael, that all, by the way, all the existing rugby league clubs are benefit from it in a financial sense.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  They all got four million dollars each.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  And they're getting more, a less amount, but each every other year too. So, I mean, everyone has done well out of it. So I don't think any rugby league club could complain about it.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Well, no, and no one was marked. No one said a word. Two weeks ago, everyone was actually saying to me, why would you take on that job? You're not going to sign players to Portmores, but you'll be back in media in two years. But with one signing, everyone was like, oh, it's unfair. This is, this is gonna, they're gonna be a powerhouse. Now, we've got a long way to go. We've got 28 players to still feel our top 30. But the narrative has shifted and it's now our job to continue shifting that narrative to show people that PNG can be a place that you come. You enjoy your work, you enjoy your living there and you can have a good life. And that's our, you know, that's our responsibility right now.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  And the big game will be in two or three or four or five or six years' time. Um, when, you know, it's all been going well and, you know, they're doing well in the game. They may be getting top 10, then top eight, maybe some top four. The big, the big test for you or the thing that's going to come up is salary cap management.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  And recruitment management, just generally like keeping players and replacing players and just building up your pathways. Then you're gonna get, you know, you're gonna be in the guts of it then.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  And that's sort of. That that's not hell, but it's it's hell and heaven at the same time. It's gonna be unbelievably good, but unbelievably challenging.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  We're in our honeymoon period right now, aren't we?

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, you totally are. But then that's why you'd be energetic, but like, I reckon you can do it, mate, because you you're young enough. You understand the game really well. You've got to be, this is a young man's game. This is for a young man, and you are a young man, relatively speaking.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  I'll get the grazes for you, mate.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Relatively speaking, but you are a young man, and but it is young, and this is the sort of thing you can sort of see yourself, yourself. If you think like this is a 20 year gig, what are you and your wife talking about?

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, to be honest with you, I haven't, obviously, there's two parts to it. There's the two years leading up, setting it up.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  And then there's probably that two, three year period where you're establishing the team. And then there's that growth period of then sustaining, as I said to you, making sure it's Papua New Guinea. First period, as I said, building, second period, making sure we're successful. And then the third period is transitioning to it being self sustainable in Papua New Guinea. And that's just admin, business, uh, business side of things, coaching players. So, uh, how long I'm there for, I have no idea, but I, um, I'm loving every minute of it so far. And I hope, I hope everyone's gonna get a second favourite team out of this because you'll, if you get the opportunity one day to go over there, you can't explain just what, you see it in their eyes. Like, I remember walking through the school, we took Jerome Lui through an international school.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Walked past the classroom and two little, two young girls, they sort of looked, they looked up and they, they just realised who they just saw.

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  They just clocked him.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  And they just started screaming.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, just started screaming. They couldn't believe that he was in their school. And you have no idea the impact these players are gonna have on the people of Papua New Guinea. It's, it'll be beautiful to watch, yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  That'll do me. Michael Chalmers, thanks very much, mate.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.