Michael Clarke: Australia’s Most Polarising Cricket Captain on Controversies, Loss & Leadership

Michael Clarke is one of Australian cricket's most successful yet polarising captains. In this revealing conversation, Clarke opens up about his leadership philosophy, the weight of captaincy, and the personal costs of life in the spotlight. He discusses the tragic loss of teammates including Phil Hughes, Shane Warne and Andrew Symonds, shares insights on modern cricket's evolution, and reflects on the controversial moments that defined his career. Clarke also speaks candidly about fatherhood, finding balance through the strong women in his life, and how becoming a parent has fundamentally changed his perspective on leadership and empathy. You can subscribe to the free Mentored newsletter here: https://lnkd.in/e7C8akgj https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5. Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Michael Clarke, welcome to Straight Talk, mate.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Mark, thanks for having me, buddy.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Now, your nickname is Pup. Well, it used to be Pup.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Nah, it still is. I still get caught. Trust me, I've been caught a lot worse, so I don't mind.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Pup's not bad.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  But that's not a bad place to start for me. Um, how did you get the nickname Pup?

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Worney gave it to me. I was the youngest player at that time in the Australian team.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  How old were you?

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Whoa, I think when I first started, I think I was 21 when I played my first one-dayer.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Uh, 23 my first Test match. So, yeah, Pup was what I, uh, Pup was what I got and Pup is what I'm stuck with.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  But more amongst the players or just generally?

• 0:39Speaker 01

  It was started from teammates, um, and then that obviously just become public knowledge. Um, and now I still get young boys or girls coming up saying Pup can have a photo. So it's like Young Pup. That's how it started.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, Young Pup.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  When you have that sort of, um, you know, let's call it your moniker, um, and well, your nickname, does that to some extent, um, make it harder to establish your authority in your environment? Either as a player or as a combatant against the other side or captain?

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't think I ever looked at it too closely, to be honest. I think, cause there was, like, the other thing as well, I used to, um, I used to call Matthew Hayden the big fish. And then the other nickname I was given when I was a youngster was Nemo, like the, the youngest, smallest fish in the pond. So I think, I think when I played in that generation of players, there was no doubt I was the baby of the team in every essence, let alone, you know, just being the youngest. Um, so it was actually a nice feeling, to be honest, when I, when I started to, to feel like I had so many big brothers. Um, I felt very well supported and it was,

• 1:52Speaker 01

  it was very clear I was, I was the youngest player in, like I say, in a number of different ways. So I was such a baby. Uh, and I think as time goes on through your career, it's, yeah, I don't know. It was just one of those things that, that stuck, probably because you don't love it. Generally with a nickname, if you don't love it, it sticks. If you love it, they'll fade it out and give you something you don't like.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  That's true too. You know, you're probably thinking to yourself, I've got a few other names I'd rather you call me.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  I've been caught a lot worse. I think that was my theory as well. Like I've been, on the field especially, you get caught a lot worse. So it's like, Pup's okay.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  It's an interesting way to look at it though, um, because some people might look at it as, um, I've got something to prove. I've got to prove myself not to be the pub. Um, what's your mindset like? What type of dude are you?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  I was very confident as a player. I enjoyed that young role. I think, I think I was, I was one or the other. I was either, you know, the young kid who could get up to mischief and cause chaos and probably needed um, good seniors around me to discipline me. Um, hence my relationship with my old man. I think that started from a very young age that if I, you know, I was, I wasn't great at school. I'd get in trouble a bit, but he'd also, you know, he was very honest and straight with me. Um, and back then a, a building never, uh, never went astray. So I got a few of those as a kid. Um, but I think the senior players in that Australian team were a number of times would have to pull me into line. So I think I was either there or I was the leader. I was the captain.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I think that the stage I probably found most difficult was that in between when I was, I was vice captain under Ricky Ponting. I think I, you know, I saw the game um, a certain way, certainly tactically. Um, and I think every, every leader that I played with um, was all very different. I think it's, it's like parenting, I guess. As a, as a parent, you take strengths that I, I idolized mum and dad the way they, they brought up my sister and I. But I'm a very different parent to, to both my dad and my mum as well. So I guess my leadership style was like that as well. I was a different leader to, you know, I played under Steve War. I played under Ricky Ponting for Australia. And then I played under obviously good leaders for New South Wales and Western suburbs as well.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Um, but the in-between part where you couldn't be accountable was quite difficult for me. You know, it's either one of the youngsters or full accountability. I think I could manage. I think, I think I suited those two places. It was the in-between where you voice your ideas, but there's no accountability. In, in a vice captain's role as well, you do have to voice your opinion and your idea. And you do need to, you know, be watching the game like a captain and passing things on. Um, but with no accountability, it just didn't suit me. I don't think.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  Do you mind if we just go back to, you said your mum and dad, and just go back to your kid from Liverpool, growing up in the west suburbs. Um, you'd done brilliantly well.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  For someone who, you know, probably didn't grow up with all the advantages of maybe your own daughter, for that matter, or my kids too, for that matter, you know, your daughters at Cambhal and my boys went to Cranbrook, um, in Scots. So go, if you take yourself back as a kid, um, and I, and for those people who are watching this or listening to this, if you're listening on Spotify or watching on YouTube, um, what you're not seeing is, um, Michael's legs moving all the time. And, uh, he's quite an active guy.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, very.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Very active.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Um, and I remember when I had a coffee with you and your daughter and Byron recently, um, you were the same, you were moving all the time.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  It's a good way to keep your weight down.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Right. It doesn't always work.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  To the calories.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Post forty, it doesn't work.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Ah, you're just, you're still a pup, mate. You're only a couple of years over that. So, but, but as a kid, um, you said every now and then you might've got out of line, um, and your mum might've given you one.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  What were you as a kid? What, what were you like as a kid? Were you a good boy, but just active?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  I was a terror. Um, I, I don't think rules have ever gone well with me. And, and even like, trying to make sense, I think it can, it can come across the wrong way. I just think, I think I was a tester of rules. Uh, I think I had a, had an amazing family, had a super tough sister, tomboy sister, two years older than me, uh, fitter, stronger, did triathlons, taught me how to become a professional athlete, was an aerobics instructor. She was, she was accidentally my, my mentor really, when I got to that, probably somewhere between maybe fifteen and, and nineteen to actually show me. And I became professional when I was,

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I think I'd just turned eighteen when I got my, when I got a contract from New South Wales, when I didn't have to work. Um. But I didn't train like a professional where she was doing triathlons and aerobics instructors. She was, she was flogging herself. So.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  What does that mean though? So living a life, her life professionally or training professionally?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  No, she was full time work, but the way she trained was how I thought a professional athlete should be training. She was, she was going to work Monday to Friday and then training for a triathlon and then doing aerobics instructing. And she was not the professional athlete. I was, I was going for a 20 minute jog, hitting a few balls and chilling out with my mates. So, you know, I think she certainly showed me what was required to, to become fit enough to play sport at the highest level or to certainly get the best out of myself. Um.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Mum and dad?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Mum, very strict. Dad, dad, a very big supporter of whatever mum said. Um. But I think mum was like, mum was got to go to school, got to do your homework. But every part of that was to only get to cricket training or footy training. You know, if I could find a way to do homework on the bus on the way home and then drop the backpack off and get straight to the indoor sports centre. Um. That's what I'd do. Um. And mum was, again, mum was, mum was working full time at the Commonwealth Bank. Um. She was the teller for 30 years. Um. Dad did a milk run, a brick truck. And then they ended up mum and dad bought an indoor sports centre. So he run that. So he was at work a lot of the time.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Um. But consistently on the phone to mum. So if I was playing up, um, you know, mum's, I guess the, the control was if you'd speak to me like that. If you don't do your homework, if you, you know, don't leave your sister alone, um, I'll ring your father. And there was that, certainly that, I say ultimate respect, there was that fear factor of my dad, but never in a way, you know.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Not a violent way.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  No way, complete opposite. Like my father, um, you know, to this day is my best mate. So it was, it was a, it was a tough, honest relationship. And if I misbehaved, I knew about it. But there was never fear of, you know, anything like that.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Do you think that they knew that you might have had a bit of what we all want to do is label things these days, A D H D and all that shit. I mean, do you think they might have known that about you?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I think my mum, I think my mum definitely thought I was a clean freak from a young age. So, uh, O C D, like we used to have Sunday was mum's cleanup day. Where she'd clean dust the whole house and generally she'd say to my sister, you've got to go and clean your room. She never had to tell me to go and clean my room. My room was spotless all the time. So I think certainly that, um.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I'd never been diagnosed with, um, A D H D or O C D. But I think, yeah, I think my mum would say he was certainly hyper, hyper as a kid, couldn't sit still, a lot of energy. Um, yeah, I think I'm still the same, like sitting, stopping my body is not what I think my body's for. I think I'm, I'm built to move, like even if it's go for a walk. I just think, yeah, I find sitting still hard and patience is probably not my greatest strength either.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  It's, it's interesting you should say because like, I actually don't know, not just a sports person, a successful person. I do not know one.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Who hasn't got hard drive in them.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  And as a result of that hard drive, have made some mistakes.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Overstepped the line.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  And then everybody else will sit back and go, that particular individual, um, can't control themselves.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  What, what, I mean, is that something you feel as though that you have experienced in your life?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I think there's probably difference, different variables based on age as well, timing in your life. Like I think breaking rules now is a lot different to breaking rules as a sixteen year old boy.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Um. Or twenty years ago.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  And obviously different generation, different time, but also, you know, the, the, the, I think. The important part of being a parent. Is uh being willing to discipline your child when they are out of line and discipline comes in a lot of different ways. Um it might be having a conversation. It might be, you know, the correction of you can't speak to someone like that. Um, you know, no, you're not going to get that because you didn't use your manners. Like it, it all depends on, on the child. My daughter is a much, much softer child to what I was or to what my sister was. So parenting my daughter, um, interesting to ask my mum and dad that as they, as her grandparents, I think they would say very different to how they had to parent me.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I've noticed you, but I did happen, I was, I saw you say to your daughter, hang on, I'm speaking.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Once or twice when you were talking to me, in other words, please don't interrupt.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Um, you did it very judiciously and, you know, nicely as a, as a good parent, but you also made you a few times there, you, you corrected, you said, did you say thank you and stuff like that?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, manners are important to me.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  They're really important.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Super. I, I just think, I, I, there's probably a handful of values that are, are super significant because that's what mum and dad instilled in me and, and manners are, they're at the top of the tree. I, I just think it's a, it's a very easy way to look like a spoilt brat, I think, if you're, you know, if you're not saying please and thank you and recognizing what other people are doing for you. I think, I think it's a, yeah, I, I don't want my daughter to be like that. I certainly am not like that. Um, it's still important to me. Um, you know, little things I could, if I have dinner at my, my mum's house and my dad's there and I have a cap on at the table, he'd still tell me to take my cap off.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  If I swear in front, I could swear in front of anybody in the world. If I swear in front of my mother and my father, he is, he'd still give me a clip over the ear. So it's just stuff that, and again, different generation, different era, but there's stuff that has stuck with me. So hopefully I can instill some, some of those values. My daughter's not going to wear a cap at the table, but, but she might, but at the moment she's not, but yeah, just some of those things. But manners are, manners, respect, I think that stuff's free, that stuff's basic and, and very important in, in my house.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  But you, you and I know a lot of blokes, like, you know, e- even Ricky Pointing was seeing them only recently and, you know, Jeff Fennick, um, Shane Warne, I mean, none of these guys, and I'm sure there's a whole list of women as well, you know, who, who, who've done well in their lives, none of these people. Um have been have avoided controversy.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  And I have to be honest, I apply it to myself as well.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I can't. Probably can't get out of that one.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't I can't back out of it, mate. And I was only thinking about this morning, I mean, I got in trouble not that long ago, actually, for unfortunately clipping a bloke. And because of self-defense, I got out of it in the end because I was over sure of self-defense. But controversy seems to follow people around who are successful. That's my experience.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  I mean, like, and, you know, you just mentioned two of them before, you play cricket with.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Um, you know, one and pointing.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, in trouble for different in different ways.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  But it's still the same deal.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  Well, someone says in indiscretion.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Um, and I think it's, I actually think, and I would love to know your opinion, for those individuals, it's actually part of the superpower. But it's a strength and a weakness.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Well, trust me, I want to agree with you.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  No, but like.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  I think I think what I think what you generally do as a as an athlete, because that I can talk about, is you you push the boundaries, I think, in every part of your life.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  And in business too.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And yeah, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  You've got to push the boundaries.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  You've got to take risks.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  As you got to, I was gonna say, you got to take risks. And I think I think the challenge for all of us is to headbutt the line, don't overstep the line. But sometimes we overstep the line.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  We never know where it is.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  That's well.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Especially when you're younger.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Sometimes you got to overstep to find it. Well, that's what I say, like, if I, as with my old man, it was virtually, you had to work out how far you could push before you go, well, I ain't going there again.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  You know, it was, you find that level and then you, you know, I can't go there again. So, look, the other thing as well, that is especially these days, if you're making it, if you're having success at something, there's positive press and there's negative press. It has to come with with all of it. You can't have one without the other. Um, you know, for me, my personal life has played a part in in regards to being in the spotlight, being in the media. Well, anytime something doesn't go to plan, if you break up, if you have a divorce, it's, you know, they've written about the relationship in such a good way when you're together. When that happens, they have to also write that you're no longer together and. There's a lot of it you can't control. There's a lot of it that people are interested in that is

• 15:12Speaker 01

  hard to fathom when you're the person that they're writing about. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't make sense to me.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Why are you interested?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like, cause me, if somebody got divorced, apart from me, if, once I hear about it and think, man, I just hope the kids are okay, or they'll be okay, and they're young, they'll, you know, they'll move on. I, I don't really wanna know the details of why they broke up, how long they've been broken up for, if they're with somebody else now. Like, you just want, especially when there's kids involved, you're like, just make sure every, everything's as good as it can be for, for the family, for the kids, you know, but I think, yeah, I think when you're, when you're, when you're doing something that's in the spotlight, it's, it's gonna be spoken about and, and there's no way of avoiding that.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  So do you think it's, i- i- i- do you think therefore it's more of a, more of a media driver? Because, or?

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Well, behaviour creates, like, if you're not, like, without, without the behaviour, I guess the media's got nothing to write about, but also type of character. Like, I think I'm, you know, I'm prob, I've probably polarised through my career. So that allows for both sides. That allows for a side of the media to, to like me, and that allows for a side of the media to not like me. And, um, I think that was one of the things that

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I think you always want everyone to love you, but I think I was okay with that.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  If they didn't?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was. I think, I think I cared more about being true to who I was.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Is that actually a thought though? Where you think yourself, it's more important for me to be true of who I am?

• 16:41Speaker 01

  I think when I got to a stage, when I was about twenty six or twenty seven, I'd read stuff about myself that wasn't true. So I'd try and go to my agent, get them to contact the journalist, tell them, mate, where's your story come from? It's a hundred percent not true. How can you write it? Then you're also, you, am I, is it defamation? You're talking to lawyers. Like, I got to a stage with all of that. I was like, I can't change it. So now I've just got to be true to myself. Like the people that know me, know me, they know my values, they know what I'm like. Doesn't mean, you know, stuff that was written was all false. That's not, that's not the case at all. Doesn't mean I didn't stuff up. There was plenty of those. But in regards to the most important thing was, I'm gonna do it the way I wanna do it. I'm gonna try and be the best I can be. I'm gonna be the person that I am.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  So he said that that's a fairly logical way of looking at things. It's actually fairly mature. When someone's reading about, you know, something you you might have allegedly done or been involved, let's pick you and Carl, that that event, Carl Stefanovic. Everybody wanted to talk about the scintillating side of stuff, like it's because, you know, that's social media and newspapers these days.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sells as well. Yeah, of course.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Do you logically sit back and say, well, you know, there was reasons for it. I mean, sure I stuffed up, but there's reasons for it. And this is how I, is that like a self justification process?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  I think it's looking in the mirror.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  It's another word, you take a hard look at yourself.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And there's no tougher critic than yourself.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  You're like that? No, no, some people aren't like that. Some people.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, no brainer. It's the same as when you, you know, you get criticised for not making runs, or you lose a game. When you're captain, generally you're accountable when you when you lose.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  It's your fault.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  But I I was hard. I was like, I did miss a trick there. You know, that was a shit shot. I shouldn't have played that shot. Under pressure, the team needed me to be more disciplined. Yeah. So I think I don't I don't think that changes off the field.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Is that your dad sort of talking to you? I mean, like in the back of your mind sort of thing?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Maybe. I think it's, I think it's, I think it's the honesty that has been drilled into me. Like, you know, there's, there's times and places where you might mix the truth because you're trying to protect somebody else, which, you know, you do as a teammate, you do as captain, you do when stuff happens off the field because you're you're respecting other people, other families, that type of thing. But I think that the deep truth smacks you straight between the eyes. You can't miss that. And I'll, and I'll, and I'll say that's, I'll, I'll, I think I'll credit mum and dad for that as well. I think that's, that's my grandfather. My grandfather was a straight shooter. Think

• 19:19Speaker 01

  nobody, nobody in my family has ever been, ever found it hard to have a tough conversation. It's always been, hang on a second, press pause, we're having this chat because what's just happened is not right. So I think. That's probably the way I see life as well. Like letting it just go by. It's not going to fix the problem.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  So there's a lot of former captains of the Australian side have had. You know, this is cricket we're talking about, but cricket is more crazy than footy.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Everyone. Some.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  No, I'm sorry. People don't realise cricketers.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're nuts.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Go crazy.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Like, just like rugby league players, actually more so.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Well, I can tell you, certainly the culture I grew up in, it was.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Oh, your era.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  You drank, you celebrated your success and you drown your sorrows when you're lost. And we love to drink as much and we, again, I love footy, I love league, I support the West Tigers. So a lot of my mates, when I was playing, we would cross codes. If we saw, if we went out and there was some leagueies there or AFL boys, we were drinking together. So, yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  And just as wild too.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  I don't think, I don't think there's anything that you could say an athlete in any sport is any different. I think when you're, when you're living life, travelling the world and you like a drink, I would, I would be saying, I wouldn't be pinpointing. I wouldn't be saying to any other sport that you're worse than cricketers, put it that way.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  Because one of the things I've always wanted to know, I've always wanted to know is you and Caddich, who gave you up? Because what, what happens in the dressing shed, stays in the dressing shed?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  No, I, I don't, I don't know how it got out. And again, it doesn't matter. Like at the end, that's, that's the thing.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  No, I'm trying to break, I'm trying to find Webby's source.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, well, I don't know. Yeah, true. I, I, I don't know. I don't know. But to me it was, it was a disagreement in a change room. And then from my point of view, it was done, it was dealt with. And again, I've seen Caddo a million times, commentate the IPL, see him at certain events, whatever it is. It was dead for me then, but things like, that's what I'm saying, the media. And I don't know Simon's side either. Like, I don't know if Caddo still has beef with me. When I see him, he's completely fine, but I don't know what he would say to other people. And that's, again, not my business, not my place, you know? I grew up in in sports where you could have a disagreement and then and sometimes even at footy training as a kid, it would be a stink. But then tomorrow, you're running the field

• 21:45Speaker 01

  together. Yeah, like that's how, again, that was instilled in in me as a kid. And that's how I see me. You still see in every other sport, it still happens these days. You see a bloke gets smacked at training for the Waratahs recently, like, I'm not saying it's right, don't get me wrong.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  But it happens.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  But it hap- you're competing, like you go, mate, I'm going to the nets and facing Brett Lee, trying to bowl a hundred and sixty Ks, trying to get picked for selection, and I'm the captain, he's trying to rip my head off. So if I get hit in the head, it's not a surprise. You're competing against each other hard. Um.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  Who was, who was the toughest bowler to face in terms of speed? Was it Brett Lee?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Sholbaktar.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Really?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Sholbaktar was the fastest I ever faced, yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  What speed are we talking about?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Well, he bowled a few balls over one sixty Ks.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  But it was high one fifties, um, consistently for a good period throughout his career. Um, but yeah, he was, he felt faster than everybody else that I faced. We had some quicks, Brett Lee, Sean Tate.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Mitchell Johnson, Mitchell Stark, uh, who have I missed? We had some, we had some super quick bowlers back in the day.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  Brett Lee, I remember that period.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Brett was fast, yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  He was, like, actually Brett Lee did some work for us many, many years ago, actually on a wizard branch at one stage in Wollongong, down, down that.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  He just moved to Dubai.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Has he?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  He's living in Dubai, yeah. I don't know if he's there at the moment, but.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  Doing what?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I don't know who he's, I think he signed a deal with, well, sorry, I'm assuming, because I saw something online the other day, I think it was with a property company. So I'm assuming that's played a part in the house that he's bought there. But yeah, he's, he's living full time. They packed his family up and living there.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Not a great time to be there, just not this last week.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  He might be back in Sydney now.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  So, and you mentioned, I think you'd mentioned Simon's, end of Simon's. So, uh, you and he were great mates.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Very good friends, yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  And then, um, unfortunately, he passed away, as we know, and we'll quickly touch on him. But you were great mates. Um, then you, you got made captain. And when you become a leader.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  As a leader.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  It's tough, it's tough.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Talk about that because at one stage, you know, you were sitting under the guidance of other leaders.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Ricky Ponting, for example, and at the end of the day, he can make all these decisions. You talk about the middle guy, the vice captain, didn't have to do anything, not accountable.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  When you're a leader, you're accountable.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  And not only that, you've got to sort of start to sort out your friendships.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I look, I, I, I will only be super respectful to, to Simo, um, especially because he's not here to sit in this chair and if I was to say something that he disagreed with, he hasn't got that chance, so.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  But how do you feel about being a leader and you've got to make tough decisions about friends?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  I think that was, that was part of when I, when I took over the captaincy or at that stage with that, um, incident, it was more, I was vice captain, Ricky missed that series, so I become captain. So any decisions that were made through that period were communicated over the phone with Ricky, who was away at the time as well. But I think there's no doubt that's, that's a factor when you become captain of, of a cricket team because you are making decisions daily on what you think is best for the team. Yes, you have a coach, you have a vice captain, but you're the one accountable as captain. So.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Maybe you could explain how it works though, like as opposed to a rugby league team, you've got the coach, coach is very influential in rugby league team.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Very different in my, in my era and when I grew up and then when I was captain, the captain was a hundred percent making 99% of the decisions around the team. Yes, speaking to the coach, in communication with the coach every single time.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  You mean just tactically or strategically?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Both, you name it, man. I could make, I could say, we're not going to fly at 10 o'clock, we're going to fly at 12 o'clock. So we change your flight to 12. You could be as involved as you want, depended on your personality as well, depended on the other players you had in your team. Like for me, we had a lot of senior players around me that I could go to for their opinion, advice, guidance, um, which helped me as a, as a leader as well. But generally, because I was willing to take full accountability, especially when we didn't play as well as we, we should have. Um, you know, and I, and I, I, I was confident, I knew how to win. You know, when I took over the captaincy, we were fifth in the world and I asked James Sutherland and, um, Michael Brown at the time.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  And Sutherland was the CEO or something?

• 25:57Speaker 01

  James Sutherland was the CEO.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Michael Brown was the general manager and they offered me the captaincy. And before I said yes, I asked them what my job was. What is my responsibility, captain of Australia? They said to get us back to number one in the world. At that stage, we're number five. I was like, I accept this job. Can't wait because I felt like I knew how to do that. I felt like I knew how to win. I'd played with so many great players, been associated with an amazing team. Felt like we still had it, you know, a really good team that we could get back to number one in the world. And thankfully, we did a lot of hard work, a lot of ups and downs as a team.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  But that was the thing, like I was, I was willing to, I was willing to make those calls and accept the consequences. If we lost, if I didn't perform, if something didn't go right, then I, I was, I was going to lose my job. I was going to lose the captaincy, but I was, I was ready for that. I was okay for that, that accountability.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  What's the first thing you did, Michael? When, you know, you got appointed as captain and, you know, we, we, you want to get Australia back to where you, we wanted to be. You know, what, what's the first thing you do? Like, what, what do you do?

• 27:01Speaker 01

  First thing I did was fought to keep Ricky Ponting in my team. Cause I, I think Pana was, I, I can't remember if it was anybody else. I remember the conversation and I think it was, I think the guys were saying, no captain retires and then stays in the team. Or it hadn't happened with an Australian team before. I don't know if it ever did, but I think that was what the conversation was getting to with, with me and the selectors.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  And I said, I, in my opinion, we needed him. We needed him in the group. We needed his experience. He played, it was more than just his runs that at that time that I wanted around the group. So that was probably my first major challenge. And again, I think-

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Who do you have to convince?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I had to convince everyone. I had to convince all the selectors. Again, it would have managed, GM, CEO, board, like they all make the decision. Nah, I, I don't think, I think the players would, I, I think the players would have agreed with, with what I was fighting for and my reasons. So I never, you know, I never heard a player complain about that decision. I've no doubt, you can only pick, pick 11 to play. So whoever's number 12, 13, 14, they might've been disappointed. But Ricky wasn't playing bad enough to, to drop as well, in my opinion. I know he wasn't at his, at his best, but he still offered the team a lot at that time that I thought was- You know, yes, making runs was the most important, but there was other stuff that was

• 28:26Speaker 01

  just as important for us as a, as a team at that time.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  You mean like, um, uh, senior leadership talents?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think experience. I, I think the way he's around the group or the way he was around the group. I think, um, his knowledge of, uh, tactical decision on the, on, on, on the field. If I was under pressure, I could go to him. Uh, and again, very different style of, of captain to me. Um, I think he'd been on tour for such a long period of time. So a lot of these young guys that hadn't travelled much with the Australian team, you could go and, you know, Ricky was another voice or another senior player you could go and ask about, you know, we've been away for four weeks, I'm missing home, whatever it is. Like, it's just, there's a lot of things that happen on a cricket tour because you're travelling so much that I think the combination of, of experience and inexperience is super important. I don't think you can have all kids and I don't think

• 29:16Speaker 01

  you can have all old guys stuck in our own ways, don't want to make change, you know, bit fatigue, bit tired. I think you need that enthusiasm as well from the youngsters. So the balance was important for me.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Would Michael Clarke say, okay, fellas, I want to appoint a, a senior leadership group? Like, you didn't do that? You just bounced between the different ones that you needed?

• 29:36Speaker 01

  You have a captain and a vice captain and then you have your senior players. But I think it was, I think as well, part of my learning as a captain was actually also acknowledging, respecting and listening to a lot of what the younger players had to say as well because they weren't all, always, they weren't, they hadn't experienced certain conditions, which sometimes is a strength. When you've been somewhere and if you've failed or you haven't had success, sometimes that can play on your mind. If you go somewhere fresh, you sort of just got no distractions. You got no fear. So I think acknowledging and listening to both. And for a lot of the youngsters or guys that hadn't played that much, that was more of a one-on-one conversation where the senior players felt comfortable talking in front of the team group.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Some of the younger players didn't feel that comfortable. So I was trying to get that balance. And the other thing as well is using other players around you. Like someone like Michael Hussey, I thought had amazing leadership qualities, but he never captained Australia. But Hus was brilliant one on one. I knew that Hus was going to take two or three guys for coffee in that four hour period before we went to training, where I was going to go and talk to the coach to find out, what are we doing? What's training planned for? Are we looking at spinning wickets? We're batting in India. Who are we looking at footage wise for the team meeting? Like, I just knew I had someone like Hus that would go and do that. So then I could speak to Hus on the team bus. I'd sit beside him and say, how'd you go with a younger player? You know, so I think it-

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Would you have to ask him to go and talk to them? He just, he just do it himself?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Guys did it at the senior play. And that's what I'm saying. Ricky was good at that. Michael Hussey was good at that. Brad Haddam was brilliant at that. They built, they had really good friendships with, with a lot of the younger players, um, through that period that they just naturally did it.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  There's, there's an old saying that, um, success is often built upon the broad shoulders of others, as opposed to the person at the front.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Which is, you know, you're the person at the front, but the broad shoulders of others is really important. What's, what, what is your leadership sort of style? How would you best describe it?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  I think I'd be a different leader now in, in, in some ways. I think I'm a lot softer now. I think I'm, I'm probably more empathetic now.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  I think that's interesting. Um, you're more-

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I think that's my, my daughter. I think since having a little girl, I think I, I just, I was so tough. I was so driven. Um, it was if in doubt, we're working harder.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  I'm just going to roll out the top of you. Just do it this way.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  We're going. If we're running, we're all running. If it's raining, we're still running. If, if we, we're losing, if we're not making enough runs, we're batting more. We're facing better bowlers. We're, we're training Sunday. We're, I, I was, I was a big believer in-

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Just in other words, more.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  More of everything.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  If, if in, if in doubt, I'd rather be overcooked than undercooked.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  But then also the balance, cause you're travelling 10 months of the year, you can't, you can't train every day you're not playing. And you can't be, you know, you can't be naughty boy nets every time you fail. There's also got to be that, you know, that, that balance. But if in doubt, I was, I never ever wanted to be underprepared.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Did you ever feel as though when you were the, when you were the leader though, you may have overcooked some of these guys?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Hundred, including myself.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause your, your personality.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Everyone's not the same.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Probably takes that, can cop it. Cause you know, you're, you're moving and you're on the go all the time. But a lot of the others might, might not be like that.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think, I, I think I was like even trying to understand someone if they're having dramas at home or um something happened with a family member like I, I, I didn't have, I didn't have the capacity to, to understand, empathise, uh be gentle with that. And then still be that driven, wanna win, train hard, preparation, super important. I didn't have the balance of both. So I was a hundred percent on the left. But I think like I say, having a, having a daughter now, I think that has just naturally softened my personality. Where I think I would be, I would be a lot more empathetic to even that conversation from a player.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  And a lot more respectful of the importance of something's happened, you know, mentally or at home or, you know, I'm feeling down for, I miss, whatever, whatever the reason is, I just think I'd be a lot more understanding now than what I was when I was captain.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  You said something interesting about the younger players um in the, in the squad and having the right balance between older and, or experienced and less experienced. But one of the things you said that the younger players bring with them is a little bit of fearlessness. Um, um, how as a leader do you um manage the difference between a younger player? And you were one of them at one stage of being fearless, manage that process of them being fearless versus reckless?

• 34:15Speaker 01

  I think it's, you, you cut slack. How much slack can you cut? I'm all for let that superstar shine, like.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Well, what about some of these young kids that are out there now and they're, you know, they're doing. Yeah, but I would say I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop anybody doing things their way. I reckon that is the greatest gift we have to dare to be different, to do it your way. Now, there are core fundamentals about, you know, you look at any player that has had success. If you just talk about batting, there's a core structure and fundamentals when it comes to the skill of batting. So yes, you have to train that, but the game has changed. The game has transitioned, the game has moved. How is that though, Pop? Because like the ball's the same, the pitch is the same, like. The way we play, like, look at the athlete, like, I, I, I think I was, in my generation, I think I was, I was one of the fittest in our team.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Man, I see these players now, they are, they are ripped, they are ninety five kilos, six foot, strong, no fat, speed, like, mate, run as quick as some of our Olympic runners, like, they are proper, the West Indies. Yeah. You see these guys, like, mate, the way they run, even some of us watching the, the, the recent World Cup, the New Zealand opening batters, mate, they're six two, six three, opening the batting, mistiming a ball for six. You know, some of our boys, you, like, they just belt them, like, we used to have, you know, Andrew Simons was, was the player that a lot of players are like now, they're built like Simo and Simo was a standout, Matthew Aiden,

• 35:49Speaker 01

  standout, big, strong. Now, I think, I think you've got to be able to move with times, like, I think if you don't, you get left behind. Like, I notice that even if I'm, if I'm talking cricket on my podcast or if I'm commentating, you can't get stuck in your generation. And I think to, you know, you, you, you've, things are different, like, yeah, gone are the days where I'd go to the nets and I'd practise ducking the bounces or letting the balls go. These days, guys are ramping it over the keeper, they're swinging outside the off stump. So you've got to also accept that there's going to be some times in Test cricket, it's not going to look that great. But then I couldn't play twenty twenty cricket like these boys do. So I think there's also that balance that our game has not changed in a bad way.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  I think when people hear the word change, they think, oh, that's not good because cricket's been like this for a hundred years. The fundamentals are still there. The skills are still super important. You've got about to make runs, you've got about to take wickets. But it's evolved and I think that's, I think that's a great thing about life. You know, I think we're always learning, we're always finding new things. Technology plays a massive part in our sport now where, you know, go back 50 years and very little did technology play. Like, are we using a Nokia or are we using the iPhone? Like, that's sports no different.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Well, and I guess also one of the things is in cricket in particular is money. I mean, when you were living out of Liverpool and, you know, trying to go and play first grade or whatever it was, back in 15, 16, the dough wasn't around. There was money, but not, not like it is now. So therefore the money attracts every athlete, every athlete and they're much more athletic.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Well, I can tell you now, I played at, I think it was somewhere between 74 and 76 kilos. I'm 84 now on a good day, maybe in the morning before I've eaten any food. If I was playing now, I'd wanna be, I'd wanna be somewhere between, I'd like to be as fit as I was cardio wise, but I'd like to be stronger. I'd wanna be somewhere between 82 and 86 kilos, I think, for the, for the player I was.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Basically 10 kilos more.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  To be able to sustain three formats and to be able to play three formats.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Without injury, without falling apart.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Injury, but I need the power. I need more power in T20 cricket. I need more power in one day cricket than what I needed when I played. And that's.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Like you mean physical power, not just skill.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  I need to hit more sixes.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  So that is timing, but it's also power as well because the ball I mistime, I need that to go over long off or long on its head. Where, yes, there is still the skill of hitting the ball along the ground through cover and point to get fours and running between the wickets. But I also gotta be able to transition from test cricket, one day cricket to 2020 cricket.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Are they, are they so different?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  They are physically, especially for a bowler, like you bowl 25 overs in a day and then you bowl four overs, it's a completely different fitness, it's a different, I think the mental skill in T20 cricket is phenomenal. To be able to, you know, you've got to be able to come on and bowl first over of the game, go and stand on the boundary and field, take a one-handed catch, throw it, get a direct hit run out. Now come and bowl over 13, 16 and 20, like test cricket, you know, I bowl eight overs, I get a rest. Go to fine leg, get to chill out for a bit. Captain says, next over, warm up. Okay, first over, I get back into it. Can bowl another four, five, six overs. It's just a very, very different skill.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  So the formats that were driving the skills required.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  And as a result of the skills required and the money, that's attracting the different types of, let's call it body shapes and forms.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  And different players, like you see 2020 cricket, guys are batting virtually left hand, right hand. They're turning around and hitting balls the opposite direction to what they do.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  Mad eh?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Mate, if I try that, I'm getting out every time.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  This is definitely ambidextrous, let's call it.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Well, batting one hand was hard enough for me, batting right hand was hard enough for me. So these guys, if they're doing it in 2020 cricket, why wouldn't they do it in one day cricket or test cricket? And that's what we're seeing. Players have now got the courage to be able to do that in test cricket as well. Now, what an old school player would say, say, get yourself to 40, 50, 60, then go for your life. Some players we're seeing walk out and do it against an opening bowler in the second over of a test match. And that is so different to what we're accustomed to.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  Is that courage mate?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  It's courage if it works, but when it doesn't work, we criticize it and say irresponsible and.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Well, therefore reckless, which is sort of my point before, the younger players coming like, he would just say, wow, he's killed it because he's gone and taken those risks and he's done very well.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  Or he took those risks and he cooped it, he's reckless.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  I would say the balance. I would say a one-on-one conversation with your captain or a senior player to go, okay, it hasn't worked, it's worked once in five goes, what do you think? Do you reckon we can get to 20 before we try that? But I'm not, I'm not telling a player to stop being themselves, to stop playing their natural game. If that got you to playing for Australia, now we just mold that to turn you into the best player you can possibly be. But if you're playing for Australia, you're doing something right. And I think to try and make. Try and stop doing something, sometimes the worst, like because you're also muscle memory. You don't play for Australia when you're six. You've trained from six years of age to generally 24.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  If you're 22 or 23 when you're a youngster and you get picked. Someone like Michael Hussey plays at 34. Can you believe the amount of muscle memory he's built to get to 34 to make his test debut? You can't say change your game then. And even from six to 21, you can't say change your game then. There's stuff that you learn as a kid, the skills, the skills are learnt at a young age. But you can mould your game, your shot selection's important. When to do something, when to go, when to pull back, which one to play, which one to leave. You know, when to take someone on, when to go down the wicket. Like all these things are learning the art of the game. Which you, you, you do do generally when you're around the best players. Cause you watch them and learn from them.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Or when you're out under pressure, because you've got to make those important decisions. But your actual skill. It's, it, these players are freakish. I honestly think today's cricketer does not get enough credit, man and woman. The females now.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Mate, on it like.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Especially the Australians.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  The skills are unbelievable. And I think sometimes when you see players get out in a way that we're not used to. You know, reverse sweep early in the innings, but we're still, Australia particularly, we're still a little bit old school. Which is nothing wrong with that as well. I think I'm old school values as well, but I think it'll just take a bit of time for us to get to that next stage. We go, just part of the game these days.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Definitely makes it entertaining. It's interesting, I was just listening to you, um, um, let's call it issuing advice or talking about observations you made. You were making a lot of observations about other people's skills and, and you were sort of generously sharing those ideas. And, uh, and that sort of brings me to Steve Smith. Um, you know, you've been a big part of his career.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Very good player, great player.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Great player. Great rooster support too.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  I won't hold that against you.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  You and Morning, Warner, Davey Warner, Dave Warner. Two, two of the greatest cricketers Australia's ever produced and both rooster supporters. But now, but let's talk about Steve. During the, during that difficult period, did you help him out? Did you talk to him?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Uh, I think for me, it was, it was a really tough time.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  For all three of the guys that were involved. Actually, it was a really tough time for everyone that was involved, to be honest. But I think for, for the three guys particularly, Smitty, Davey Warner and Cam Bancroft. I think it was an extremely

• 43:37Speaker 00

  He copped it.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Tough time personally. You know what? I think, oh yeah, I think all three of them copped their fair share.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  And to be honest, I, I was super proud that all three copped it on the chin. I think there's no doubt, everyone can see what happened. And it, and, and again, I think there's a lot of things that are still kept in-house, which I think is also part of playing a team sport, that those players that were there, if they don't want to talk about it, then I don't think it should be spoken about. That stays in-house. I think you do owe honesty to the fans because everybody watched the game, saw it, and it's been replayed a million times. Extremely tough on those three guys. Heartbreaking to see the pain they were going through. And again, I am old school in regards to you do the crime, you pay the time. I get that.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  But I do love that they copped their, they copped their medicine, took their suspension, took their fine, lost the leadership. But then Australia forgave and gave them a second chance. And, and I think that for me, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that have had a lot worse shit in this world that have been given a second chance. And that was the one thing for me that, um, like I say, I'm not taking anything away from what they did. I'm not making that any lighter, any softer. We can't have that in any sport, let alone in what I think is Australia's greatest sport. So I'm okay with the tough punishment. But I think it is a sport and they deserve to be, um, they deserved a second

• 45:13Speaker 01

  chance and I'm happy they got that.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  And that's very Australian too, by the way. Everyone deserves a second chance.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Hundred bit, but I, well, like, if my daughter makes a mistake, she's already made a million. She's gonna make a million more. It's part of my job as a dad to have a conversation, forgive, don't forget, make sure she's aware it's not acceptable, give her another go, like, that's what I'm saying. I think maybe it's easy for me to say this because I knew what I was like, you know, growing up as a kid. I know all the stuff ups I've made, um, and I've been given so many chances. So that was the way I saw it. Speaking to them, I think they're all very, in very different, um, places as well because different people, you know, I think, I think how you take certain things is very much around

• 46:00Speaker 01

  the individual, um, how you react, um, and then how you build the strength to, to move on takes everyone different times. And I think, I think the other thing that we probably saw was all three of them had a, had a pretty strong foundation with, whether it was family or friends, uh, once they got back to Australia and their home state that played a significant role in getting them through one of the toughest periods of their life.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Well, and, and let's talk about just Steve for a, for a second. I mean, what are his personality strengths, like, what, what do you see as, I mean, you know him well.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  I mean, he's a soft soul. He, Smitty's a soft soul and I thought.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  As opposed to Dave Warner, like.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very different personalities, very different. Um, I think Smitty, you can't dislike Smitty. He, he, he's a lovely guy. He, he's a super hard worker. He has, he has his own way of doing things, um, but I think he's, yeah, he's, he's, he's a gentle soul for sure. So there's no doubt that, that time would have been really tough for him. Um.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  But do they reach out? Do they reach out and say, mate, I'm doing a taffle? Like, what happens during these periods?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Again, I think that's up to the individual, Mark, to be honest. I think.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  But do you reach out to him and say, how you going?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I think, yeah, it's not hard to send a message to check in that, you know, I'm thinking of you. Um, but again, some people mightn't like, I've had a lot of mates that, you know, over a period of time, they, you know, with stuff that's happened to me, they, they were unsure whether, how it would come across, how it'd feel them reaching out. And then afterwards, you catch up and see each other and go, mate, I should have just, they say, I should have just sent you a message.

• 47:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  You understand everyone's different. Um, and I, I think for something like that as well, it, it affected the cricketing community, the Australian cricketing community. And I'm talking past players. I'm talking players that were playing state cricket, club cricket. I, I think everybody was sort of dealing with what they were seeing at that time as well. Um, but yeah, I, I, I, I think we should do that more though, a hundred percent as.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Reach out.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  I think so. As, as, as, as a male, I think it's our greatest weakness. You know, I think women are brilliant at talking. We are, we've come a long way, but I still think we're, we're nowhere near good enough at sticking a hand out and just saying, I'm here if you need something.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  You're talking earlier on about, um, you know, training in the nets and, you know, ducking to avoid bounces. Do you mind if I just touch on your great mate who got hit with a bouncer?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, huge. Yeah, tough one.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  When, when that happened, what, what did you, what did you feel in, in here?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Oh, I think you know the answer to that. I still get emotional talking about it still.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  I, I think it's, I think you're like, any, anytime someone passes, I, I think.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  I think the perception is it gets easier. Ah, I don't, I don't know if that's the case.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  You don't, you, you don't really heal from it. Maybe you learn from it.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  I think you, I think you, I think you find ways to deal with it in that moment.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  On like today, in this, in this interview, like if this is happening two years ago, I don't know if I can even speak about it. You know what I mean? So I think you slowly try and manage the situation, the feelings as much as you can. But yeah, it's devastating, you know, it's, it's, it's, he was a young man, full of talent. And yeah, even my brain now, I don't even think about the cricket side of things. I just think about. You know, who we lost as a person, you know, more than, he, he would have played a hundred test matches. He would have had a 10 year career, at least, at least, he would have been, I think he would have been one of our best opening batters that we had, but also I'm emotionally attached, I'm, I'm saying that no matter what, you know, but that's how I saw him as a player.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  But it's more who he was as a man.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  It's interesting, I was just thinking about your era, um, apart from having a lot of, a lot of scallywags of, of unbelievable skill, like, but unbelievable big personalities. Three people you played with have passed, Endres Hammers, Shane Warne.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Philip Pugh. And my mentor growing up as a kid, Rod Marsh as well, passed just before, the day before Warnie. Yeah, I know, it's.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  But that's, that seems to be a lot.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  I know.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  I can't think, I can't, I can't say that in, in terms of rugby league groups that I know. That's a lot coming out of one group.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  One group of mates.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Devastating, yeah. Well, Huzi didn't play with Warnie or Simmo, um, but obviously knew them, like Warnie, Warnie and Huzi were good friends, were good friends. Warnie come to South Africa as our, I don't even know what he was, bowling coach, mentor, party manager. And Huzi was on that tour, Huzi was in the squad but didn't play. Um, so yeah, they've become great friends. Um, yeah, look, it's devastating, mate. And I think, I think that is a part of sport as well. Like you, we all go our own ways. We've all got our different lives and you have kids and families and, and you move on and you don't see each other as much and you probably don't talk as much as you should on the phone. But I think, I

• 51:13Speaker 01

  think you remain a distant family, like you're still a family. Anybody that's played, look, I've got, I'm the 389th player to play for Australia. It's, it's scarred on my body. Um, that means something to me. And I, I'd be surprised if you went and spoke to someone that is 90 years of age that played for Australia, um, if they don't know what number player they are for Australia. I think it's, it's that important.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  389.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  389, good bottle of wine too.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Can I just, can I ask you, um, before we wrap, because it's important for me, like, and I think our audience wants to know this too. You've been pretty successful in everything you've done. They tell me you've got your lunch money. And um.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  I'm a saver. My mum worked at the bank for thirty years.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  You've still got your lunch money and each, every dollar's got a name.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  No chance. I am the least tightest person.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Nah, come on mate.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I'm a brag about myself about one thing, I'm generous. I'm a good spender.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  No one has said you're not generous, but you know where everything's gone. You know which direction. Which street it's all gone to. But you've done well for, you have done well for yourself in a financial sense. And what are you doing now? What's Mark Card doing now? It's like post cricket.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  I've got my own podcast, Beyond Twenty Three.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Beyond Twenty Three.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  That I do, yep.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  And where's that at? Spotify, YouTube?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  YouTube, Spotify, yep. I do, I do a little bit of commentary overseas. Really, in regards to money, my stuff's basically still in property. I think it always has been. I've always invested in residential property. Again, in different ways as well. Like when I was playing, there was a lot more investment properties. Now I'm, you know, it's more home I live in, different sort of investments. But I think really my focus has been, you know, ambassador for a handful of companies. A tiny bit of commentary overseas in our winter because I want to spend the summer with my daughter as well on her school holidays in Australia. And then my podcast is something that I've, I've really fallen into and absolutely love.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  So that creates my, my cash flow and then I, I invest in property.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  You mentioned on a number of occasions, and if we just don't mind just touching on your private life. You have had a, a, a listany of ex-partners.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  And a lot of us received a lot of press. I have met your current partner, Arabella, at Jeff's Sixteth. I think it was Jeff's Sixteth.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  And she's over there filming stuff and taking photographs. And you've been talking about your daughter a lot today.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  What is it about those two people that keep you different at your age today compared to say when you, and I don't want here for you to come home on your previous partners. I'm not, I'm not asking that. What is it about the stability that you get out of those two people in particular that help you be Michael Clarke today compared to who you were?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Well, I've said it before, they both softened me.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  No, but is it, have they softened you? Have you seen something in them that made you soften yourself?

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Maybe. I'd like to say a combination, but I, I think.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Or is it just maturity?

• 54:22Speaker 01

  It could be that as well. I'd like to say that as well. That's probably a, a question more for those two. I think from my side, I think I've always been super comfortable around females. I'm super close to my mum. I've spoken already about my sister.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Uh, my daughter is.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  That's interesting. You just, there's three, there's three there and there's, and there's one here watching everything.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  And Arabella, my partner, yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that's very interesting. Like, uh, yeah, you, you think women, you get on better with women, strong women in your life or, or balanced women in your life?

• 54:54Speaker 01

  I think I've always had women in my life, you know, I think.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  They've played a big role.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, still do. I, I think, and I think it is. I think it's the, you know, I think there's, I think there's a balance of, you know, being around your mates is a great feeling. I think we all love that. Talking footy, talking cricket, having a drink, whatever it is. But I think, you know, I also enjoy, like, there's nothing I don't do without my current partner, without Arabella.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  That's funny, she goes, Fennec.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  The biggest larrikin.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  He's exactly the same.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  He's got the two daughters and he's got, and, and he's got his missus and they, they, they go.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Suzie goes everywhere with him.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I saw, I saw him in Vegas last week, like Suzie and, and, and one of the daughters, cause she was over there with, um, her partner, place in Newcastle. But, and they've actually, funnily enough, they've got a granddaughter.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just had a baby, Kayla.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, um, now what's, there's, there's two complete larrikins, Australian larrikins, completely. You know, you are great sportsman, some of the best, best in the world, you know, in, in, in a, in a long-term sense.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Yet you have these women who form a huge part of your life.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Hmm. Maybe they keep our feet on the ground as well. Like, I think for me, like, I've, I'm very lucky. Like Bella is, Bella is brilliant at socializing. Like, I mean.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Honey, like.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Brilliant. She gets on with everyone.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  She, you know, I'm still, I'm still, like, I'll sit back, she'll bring that out of me. I'll say, babe, I don't really wanna go here. She'll say, I think it's good we go. There's, you know.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  That's funny. You like that, eh?

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. I am.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  That's me, man. Like, I'm hopeless.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't really, I'm, I'm a homebody.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  I like, I don't mind my mates or our friends coming to our house where we stay.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  But just as long as you know who they are and it's controlled.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  And, but it's in my environment, you know what I mean? So I think, I also think she can, you know, she brings that out of me, which is good. Otherwise, I'd never leave the house.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  But what, what do you think, what do you, what do you get from that by going out, for example?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Oh, it's outside your comfort zone and you get to meet new people.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Is it because she makes you feel safe?

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Oh, hu- hundred, the, the main thing also for me, if I am, if I'm to step outside with a group of mates and it becomes midnight, for example, and then someone takes a photo of me getting a drink at a bar, which, and I'm only talking about this because I've experienced it. As soon as the lady behind the bar gives me the drink, someone takes a photo, oh, this lady's holding hands with Michael. Like, if I've got my partner there, everything's right in front of them as well. So it takes out any sort of risk of that, but that's not why we go out together. I, I, I think I, I love her company. I love the conversation. I love, her friend group are, are awesome. I think she brings, like I say, she probably brings me out of my shell a little bit as well.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Like, my daughter does. You have to go to stuff with your daughter. You have to go. I'm at cross-country last week. I'm at the swimming carnival. I'm at, you know, Father's Day breakfast. You're at, um, you know, Christmas, stuff that, it's, it's not, I don't.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Really wanna go, but my daughters, it's my daughters, I'm going, you know, so I think.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  And you've got to show you're enjoying it.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Hundred, hundred percent, cause she will notice, that's for sure. My daughter will notice. So, I don't know. I think, yeah, I think it's the comfort being around women is always been there for me as well. Like, I don't feel, I don't have to change. I've always got on well with women and I've always felt comfortable.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  It's interesting, like, um, a female is, I think is really important to give.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, definitely.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  This is successful people balance, because your world is very male. You're on a male cricket side.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  And you're hanging out with males on the tour.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Thirty years.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  And you're living with them.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Traveling the world with them, yep.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  And you're, you're in each other, you're sharing a room probably, you know, like, I don't know if you, you say, say.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  When I started, when I was, when I first started playing first class cricket, you'd, yeah, you'd bunk in together, you'd share a room. As time went on, you had your own room.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  Well, captain gets his own room?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Captain gets his own room, yes.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  One of the benefits. Thank you.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Which is, as you get older, you should get your own, especially when you're a parent as well, you wanna have your own room.

• 58:59Speaker 00

  That's for sure.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Sitting there talking to your daughter and your teammate's nineteen wants to go to a nightclub, I think she'll be in different rooms. But the other thing, I've, I've always felt this as well. I've always felt I could, I could buy myself a house, but I've always felt it's become a home with a woman in it.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  I've always, maybe because my styling is very male dominated, uh, and the woman has just, the woman has always softened.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Brings warmth.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  My home and softened me. Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  I really appreciate your honesty, like, cause I mean, not many people get to see that about Michael Clarke. I mean, we sort of put you up here as a great sports person. You know, achieved great things, bit of controversy, but by the way, I don't mind the controversy. I think controversy surrounds most people who are successful, one way or the other.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  None of us are perfect, buddy, I know that.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  No one's perfect.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  None of us are perfect.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  And some of it just a little less imperfect than others, but we're all imperfect, that's for sure. But I appreciate your honesty, um, and your frankness and, uh, and congratulations, mate, to a brilliant career, a brilliant cricketing career.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, mate. I really appreciate it.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  Thanks, mate.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Thanks, Mark.