Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast The Science of Sex (Part 2) About this episode The Science of Sex comes to its inevitable climax when Neil deGrasse Tyson, Kristen Schaal and Charles Liu discuss human, primate and alien sexuality with Dr. Ruth Westheimer and Mary Roach.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.
0:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm an astrophysicist with the American Museum of Natural History here in New York City, where I also serve as Director of the Hayden Planetarium. And today, the topic is the science of sex. And who else could I possibly bring in to talk about this but the one, the only, the inimitable Dr. Ruth. Dr. Ruth, welcome to StarTalk Radio.
0:44 Speaker 01 I love the way you said "sex." Say that one more time.
0:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Sex.
0:48 Speaker 01 Very sexy.
0:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now, we went to the Facebook page and I got some questions from a few people, and some interesting ones here. I don't know if you know that I was an accessory to the demotion of Pluto from its planet status. And it's now just called a dwarf planet. Okay? And so, someone who wrote in was aware of this fact and had a question related to this. This is De Havington Wilson. Concerning Pluto's planetary status, does size really matter?
1:17 Speaker 01 Wonderful question. Neil, tell all of your viewers, size of that part of the male anatomy that we are talking about, the penis, size does not matter. A woman's vagina can accommodate all sizes. Now, if somebody has a miniscule one, that's a different story.
1:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's another story.
1:39 Speaker 01 I send them to a urologist.
1:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But here's... You have a whole set of... you have a whole network.
1:45 Speaker 01 Of course. But here's what I tell... There are men who are very concerned about it. And here's what I tell them to do.
1:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Preoccupied even.
1:53 Speaker 01 Yes. But here's what I tell them to do. Not in your studio, at home. Stand in front of a full-length mirror. Bring yourself to sexual satisfaction. Stand there and admire the direction. You will never worry about penis size again.
2:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Really?
2:12 Speaker 01 And women have to know, never to say to somebody like you or anybody in your studio... My last lover had a bigger one. That would be terrible. That would be very destructive. So loud and clear.
2:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's a whole psychology to this, that's what it is.
2:29 Speaker 01 Loud and clear, it does not matter the size.
2:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now, how about in the animal kingdom, typically when we want to justify certain behavior in society, we find some other animal out there that does what we want ourselves to do and say, "See?" So, for example, the bald eagle. They mate for life, right? They build a nest, huge. They're like condos up there in the trees. I mean, I've seen some, I've seen a bald eagle nest. It's huge. And it's so maternal, paternal. And they say, "We should be doing that too." But then there are other animals that all they do is copulate with whoever is closest to them every day of their lives. And so, do you have any sense of whether humans are naturally monogamous?
3:12 Speaker 01 You are very fortunate that I'm not Sid Munt Freud. Because right away, I would say, "I know where you are going with that question."
3:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, I'm not, I'm...
3:22 Speaker 01 However, I want to tell you something. I'm not a zoologist.
3:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? My museum has zoologists, but all the animals they work on are dead. They're stuffed.
3:28 Speaker 01 But I really don't have an answer. You see, somebody like me has to be able to have the courage to say, "I don't know."
3:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not enough people say they don't know.
3:39 Speaker 01 I know that in our culture, most people want to have a significant other. They want to have somebody they can count on. Even if it's not the same person throughout life.
3:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Serial monogamy in that limit, yes.
3:52 Speaker 01 But the idea that you walk around, I'm not telling you personally, that people walk around and say, "I wonder how that person would be in that position."
4:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's hard sometimes not to think that, right?
4:07 Speaker 01 And it's okay.
4:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? People walking by, you know.
4:09 Speaker 01 Half naked. And it's okay to think, but don't touch.
4:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, "Look, but don't touch." I see, I see, okay. So, so the fantasies are healthy?
4:18 Speaker 01 The fantasies are very helpful, especially in our world. Because there are so many pressures on everybody. So to use fantasies is wonderful.
4:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. And is there anything in your life that has surprised you most about the human nature? Either good or bad. Something that just came out of left field and you say, "My gosh, that's shocking." Shocking good or shocking bad?
4:45 Speaker 01 Very good point.
4:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're part of the psychology of people's, the dynamic of human emotion and interaction.
4:50 Speaker 01 In my sex therapist, like myself, psychologist, psychosexual therapist, has to know one's limitations. If a person walks into my office and I, in that intake, in that first encounter, I realize they're depressed, male or woman. I don't give them a second appointment with me. I say, "You have to go and see a psychiatrist." So it's very important that you know your own limitations when you are trying to help people. Maybe the funniest question, where I was able to show my philosophy of how I teach, is a young man calling, I told it on David Letterman,
5:33 Speaker 01 a young man calling saying his girlfriend loves, they love each other, they're going to get married, they have terrific good sex, they don't want to be parents right now, so they are using what?
5:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A pill?
5:45 Speaker 01 Contraception. I was very happy. They love each other, they're going to get married. I said, "What's your comment?" And he said that his girlfriend likes to toss onion rings on his erect penis. I did what you are doing, I giggled. Because a good sex therapist has to visualize what people do, and it permitted me to state my philosophy. Anything to consenting adults do on their kitchen floor, living room couch, bedroom, is perfectly all right.
6:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Including ring toss?
6:16 Speaker 01 Whatever.
6:20 Speaker 01 So here's the point. In the Talmud, in the Jewish tradition, it says, "A lesson taught with humor is a lesson retained." I could never tell you a joke. I hear jokes every day. They go in one ear and out the other. But I can hear of a question, or I can hear of a situation in my office that can make me laugh and that I can use as an educational moment.
6:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As a tool.
6:47 Speaker 01 To teach.
6:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
6:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Before we take a break, here's some of the science behind human arousal, Charles.
6:54 Speaker 02 Uh huh, I'm taking notes.
6:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're taking notes, okay? When we're interested in someone, our pupils become dilated. And studies confirm that heterosexual men tend to rate women with wider pupils as more attractive and feminine.
7:07 Speaker 02 It's too bad we can't see other people's pupils on the radio.
7:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or see it in a dark club, right? Where most of this action takes place. On the other hand, heterosexual women only moderately prefer men with dilated pupils. And so, that means perhaps women like men to be interested, but not too excited, perhaps. And also, arousal causes our brains to release, I've got it written here, norre-
7:31 Speaker 02 Norepinephrine.
7:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, see, that's why I have you on the show. Professor of astrophysics, Charles Liu here. Norepinephrine, there you go, thank you, which stimulates sweat glands. The human palm has 3,000 sweat glands per inch, so that sweaty palm feeling is real. You know, no wonder our hands get that way when we get close to someone we're interested in.
7:53 Speaker 02 Oh, yes.
7:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But when StarTalk Radio returns, we'll learn much more about arousal and the role it plays in sex.
8:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back with StarTalk Radio, and I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I'm here with Kristin Shaw.
8:22 Speaker 03 Such a pleasure to be here, Neil.
8:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It is, I love having you on this. And I got you here because, not just because you're funny and I like having you around, but on this show of the science of sex, who knew that you had written a book?
8:34 Speaker 03 Yes.
8:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Called The Sexy Book of Sexy Sex.
8:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know a lot about sex.
8:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And that makes you an expert.
8:39 Speaker 03 It does. It does. I wouldn't trust what I see.
8:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm just saying, and you're here on the Botticelli remake here. And Botticelli's got nothing on you with Venus coming out of the seashell. So, we also have clips from my interview with Mary Roach, who wrote the book Bonk.
8:56 Speaker 03 Bonk.
8:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Bonk, all about sex, the science of sex.
8:59 Speaker 03 Bonk, the sexiest word in the human language.
9:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is it?
9:02 Speaker 03 Bonk.
9:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, we've got those clips, we'll put them in. In the next clip, we talk about porn. And I always wondered, you know, I think guys look at porn more than women do. So, what's up with that? Do you have any insight into that?
9:15 Speaker 03 I do, Neil, because I was just saying, I think that, because this generation of kids can access porn so easily now.
9:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah.
9:24 Speaker 03 And I'm worried.
9:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They don't have to walk into Peep shows on 42nd Street.
9:29 Speaker 03 All they have to do is say, "Yes, I'm 18," and they've got all the porn they can handle.
9:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
9:34 Speaker 03 But I'm worried that the girls who watch it are gonna grow up being attracted to men without faces. Because the camera's always down here.
9:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, okay, is that a problem? There are plenty of guys attracted to women without reference to their faces.
9:48 Speaker 03 Oh, the butter faces.
9:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes. So, there's precedent for that, you know? So, any other insight into porn?
9:57 Speaker 03 Well, you know, I think, I do think that it's helpful, actually.
10:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because the stereotype is like the teenage boy getting a hold of the magazine, you know? I mean, that's the, you don't think of the teenage girl getting a hold, that's not, the same stereotype isn't there.
10:11 Speaker 03 It isn't there, isn't there.
10:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Did you?
10:14 Speaker 03 I know, well, boy, yeah. When I was, this is trouble, when I was pretty young, I would say I was...
10:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're still pretty young.
10:22 Speaker 03 Thank you. I can't remember the exact age, but I would say maybe like early high school, late junior high. I did come across a dirty video that I didn't know what it was.
10:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? See, guys would have been there by 12, okay? So, you're saying, "Oh, in high school, I came across a dirty video and couldn't identify it."
10:39 Speaker 03 I know. It was like hot nights on the beach. And I was like, "What is this? Is this a new police academy?" You know, and I like popped it in, and I was like, "Ho, ho." I like saw two guys, and they were like double teaming a lady. And it was the first time I'd seen sex, and that image is like... It is branded in my brain. If I meet those actors, I mean, they'll be a lot older, but I'll be like, I saw you guys. I saw you. I know what you did on that hot summer night.
11:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know where you were.
11:06 Speaker 03 Wow, I'll never forget. I'll never forget. How's your butt? Is your mole still there? I know who you are, you know?
11:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How's your butt?
11:15 Speaker 03 Because it was, it was, it's so jarring. I mean, it's really...
11:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If you've never seen it, right, right, right.
11:20 Speaker 03 But I do think for old...
11:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And that messed you up for life?
11:23 Speaker 03 No, I was pretty healthy about it, I guess. But I think it's good when people watch porn, like, people who are in a relationship or whatever, if you do want to watch it from time to again.
11:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You get some ideas.
11:33 Speaker 03 You get some ideas and it's fun, but you don't want to, you don't want to do it too much. Just like you don't want to do one thing in sex too much. Because it kind of gets gross.
11:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
11:43 Speaker 03 You gotta shake it up with sex and with porn. A little porn here, a little porn there.
11:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, how about romance? How about romance?
11:49 Speaker 03 I don't like romance.
11:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What kind of girl are you?
11:52 Speaker 03 I'm kidding. Yeah, romance, Dr. Ruth was 100% right. She was talking about, you know, the men who take the Viagra and are ready to do it, but they've ignored their wife romantically.
12:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right. They walk past the bouquet of roses and past the box of chocolates.
12:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they're, and they've got their, their divining rod ready to find its target.
12:09 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And all the romance is gone. That's what you're saying.
12:12 Speaker 03 Yeah, romance only makes sex hotter. And, and I think that, that you're dumb not to think so. And they said it's...
12:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're just a guy not to think so.
12:20 Speaker 03 I guess so, but I mean, on emotional level, if you're connecting romantically, the woman is gonna want to give so much more back, in a way.
12:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And guys are just idiots about this.
12:31 Speaker 03 Well, they gotta smarten up. Smarten up, guys. Smarten up.
12:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Let's go to my next clip with Mary Wode. She was kind enough to visit me in my office at the Aiden Planetarium.
12:41 Speaker 03 That's huge. How'd you even get her?
12:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know, it was fun. It was fun. And I pulled out my trusty microphone and let's talk about arousal and the role of pornography.
12:48 Speaker 03 Okay.
12:50 Mary Roach? Usually what's going on with the scientists in the white coats and the people having sex, it's one person and a finger or a vibrator. I mean, if you're studying arousal and orgasm, you don't need two people. So, just for simplicity's sake, just you have one person come in and whether you're in an MRI or you're whatever, you're rigging them up for measurement, it's simpler to establish.
13:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it's really just the autonomic response? So it's not the arousal triggered by another person? It assumes you could do it yourself or that a machine can do it to you?
13:19 Mary Roach? Right, and sometimes they, and they show, they'll show...
13:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Pictures?
13:22 Mary Roach? Yes, they call it visual erotic stimulation. It's porn.
13:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Get that in one syllable. Porn.
13:28 Mary Roach? So they'll show snippets. And I, I thought there was a special educational scientific research porn supply house. I said, "Where do you get these films?" And she looked at me like, "Of course, you get them at the porn shop."
13:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? At the porn shop, on the corner porn shop, yeah. There's not a special medical version. I have a prescription for...
13:44 Mary Roach? I did, I thought it was like a special, somehow sanitized erotic scientific video, but no.
13:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is there an understanding of why women are perfectly arousable with soft core porn in ways that a man might require hardcore porn? Do they look at sex differences among arousal?
14:02 Mary Roach? They did, well, you know, this is kind of counterintuitive, but what they found, surprisingly, that men were aroused by porn that fit their sexual orientation. Like, they weren't aroused by gay, or if there are animals involved, or whatever. They were aroused by men and women having sex, or women and women, because there's two naked women. But the women responded to anything.
14:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The entire spectrum.
14:24 Mary Roach? The entire spectrum.
14:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Animals.
14:25 Mary Roach? Anything, you name it. They responded, in terms of the measurement...
14:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not what they would say, but what the body was reacting.
14:30 Mary Roach? Yeah, vaginal blood flow.
14:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because they can't say.
14:32 Mary Roach? Well, or they just didn't pick up on it, like, either they were in denial, or they were so subtle that they weren't picking up on it. But physiologically, they responded to everything. They used, I think, some images of bonobo monkeys. Anything.
14:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Anything will turn a woman on.
14:45 Mary Roach? No one thinks that. People think of, you know, men as being visually stimulated and women as just could care less. But if you asked the women, they wouldn't necessarily say that, I mean, they might say, "That didn't do anything for me." But they're...
14:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We have electrodes that say otherwise.
14:57 Mary Roach? Their vaginas were saying otherwise.
15:00 Mary Roach? And this is also, there's a disconnect with women between the vagina, the body, and the brain. Like Viagra actually does quote-unquote "work" on women. It does increase vaginal blood flow, but the women don't pick up on it. They don't feel aroused.
15:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It doesn't change the urge?
15:14 Mary Roach? It doesn't change the... no, no. It does have an effect, but it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, which is make them feeling like they want to have sex.
15:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, so it doesn't affect the libido?
15:23 Mary Roach? It doesn't affect the libido. So, that is an interesting disconnect that isn't there with men so much. And I asked a researcher, like, "Well, why, why is that?" She said, "Well, it could be just because if you're a man, you know, and you have an erection, it's kinda hard to ignore. And you're a woman, it's a little more subtle."
15:39 Speaker 03 Wow.
15:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, women are turned on by everything?
15:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's awesome.
15:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Even if you won't admit it to yourself?
15:46 Speaker 03 Well, I'll admit it. I've watched gay porn, and I really like it.
15:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Really?
15:50 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Gay guys, guys do it.
15:52 Speaker 03 Guys on guys.
15:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, that's two guys.
15:53 Speaker 03 Four guys and a train. They can do that.
15:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, and four women?
15:57 Speaker 03 They can do a lot of stuff.
15:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, but there's, but, but what Mary Roach was saying is, it's, it's animals...
16:02 Speaker 03 Bonobos monkeys are incredible. We should do a whole segment on them.
16:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They, they just like it?
16:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, they just like, they'll hump you to say hello. Ugh, they're amazing.
16:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they're very close genetically to us. So, maybe we're in denial of true inner urges?
16:17 Speaker 03 Maybe.
16:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You know? Usually to find monogamous other animals, we have to like find tree shrews or something, or bald eagles, but not the very closest genetic identity to us, the bonobo chimps.
16:29 Speaker 03 Bonobo chimps.
16:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, what do you know about bonobos? Did you like see the Nature Channel?
16:33 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. Well, I researched some for the book. We have a section, we have a section in the book about them, because they're so...
16:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In your book, The Sexy Book of Sexy Sex?
16:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, we have a, a section about our, could we, what, what we did is we went into the jungle and we lived with the bonobos. So, we learned our language from them.
16:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, sex is their, is their, is their vehicle?
16:51 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
16:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To communicate ideas and thoughts?
16:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow.
16:55 Speaker 03 Yeah.
16:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, are you in denial of this result?
16:58 Speaker 03 No, 100% I agree. I agree.
17:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're, you're on it?
17:01 Speaker 03 Well, I, because women too, I think, well, I don't know, I, I, you know, because the biggest sexual organ, of course, is the brain. And so, it's, it's silly to say that...
17:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what women tell each other, right?
17:12 Speaker 03 Oh.
17:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A guy would never say that. It's well-known, the guy's brain ceases functioning. That is clear.
17:20 Speaker 03 Well, let's just say for today that the
17:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The brain is the man's smallest sexual organ, okay? It plays no role.
17:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, but we have fantasies and also we have all our smut novels too. You can't forget those. Like on the chain, like that's how I learned about sex too was I would just flip to page 16 and page 180 of the all those
17:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's all you need.
17:42 Speaker 03 Holocoin romance novels. That's when they started it. Um, that's when they start, then they had a fight and then ah, made it up.
17:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Makeup sex, right, right, okay. I knew a woman who was a romance novelist. It was like I was kinda scared to walk by her.
17:56 Speaker 03 Why?
17:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, cause you know, you just never know what's going on in their head.
18:00 Speaker 03 Oh, well, what's going on in her head is going on in all our heads.
18:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, when we come back, more of the science of sex with Christian Shaw and my clips with the author Mary Roach. You're listening to StarTalk Radio. See you in a moment.
18:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back on StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson with Christian Shaw.
18:38 Speaker 03 Hello.
18:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Hello. And we've also got clips of my interview with Mary Roach. She had come to my office, pulled out my microphone, and she did some crazy things.
18:47 Speaker 03 That's all you pulled out?
18:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, pulling out, whipping out are two different things. So it's a good vocabulary.
18:53 Speaker 03 I pulled out all the stops.
18:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Straight. So, Mary Roach wrote a whole book on this science of sex and all the research that had ever been done. Did you know that she not only did research on all the science that was done in sex?
19:06 Speaker 03 Yeah.
19:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? She was her own subject.
19:09 Speaker 03 Really? She was just masturbating like crazy while she was... That's what I did. I'd be like, ah, reward!
19:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Let's find out on our next clip of Mary Roach telling us about sex in the lab.
19:20 Mary Roach? I didn't set out to do this with the book. I was thinking, well, I'm a journalist. I'll be in the room with a notepad and there'll be a couple and the researcher and I'll just be, oh, don't mind me.
19:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Don't mind me as I watch you have sex.
19:29 Mary Roach? Yeah, and but the researchers, of course, would say, are you kidding me? You can't be in the room. First of all, you might influence the experiment. Second, nobody wants to have you there and you're gonna...
19:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Plus, you're not wearing a white lab coat.
19:39 Mary Roach? You're not wearing... yeah, exactly. Yes. And invariably, they'd go, I know you can be the subject. And there was one study where my poor husband got dragged into the fray.
19:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You and your husband went into the lab, observed by a lab-coated scientist?
19:52 Mary Roach? Lab-coated scientist.
19:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow.
19:54 Mary Roach? Dr. Deng.
19:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait. There's a doctor named Dr. Deng?
19:56 Mary Roach? Yeah, yeah, Dr. Well, I...
19:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, wait, wait, wait.
19:59 Mary Roach? Not Dr. Dong.
20:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know, no, but wait, you're telling me that someone by the name of Dr. Deng convinced you and your husband to have sex in his lab while he's watching with his lab coat?
20:10 Mary Roach? Precisely.
20:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
20:13 Mary Roach? He's published in The Lancet, I will have you know, Buster.
20:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. He's a scientist.
20:20 Mary Roach? He's a scientist.
20:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, how'd you do? Did they find... what'd you learn about yourself?
20:24 Mary Roach? Well, you know, obviously, the burden of performance was on my husband, Ed, and Ed did very, very well indeed. Viagra helps. They gave... well, here, let me tell you what it was. It's this four-dimensional ultrasound moving picture image that they were trying to see if that would work. They've done these really cool images. There's one, you can go online and you can see like a puckering lip or an erecting penis. That's his previous one that he had done. And he was trying to do a four-dimensional moving ultrasound image of genitals having sex.
20:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, four-dimensional would be you have all the spatial information and a time information?
20:58 Mary Roach? Exactly. The fourth dimension being time. So, it's a 3D movie in ultrasound.
21:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mm-hmm.
21:03 Mary Roach? You know, I've seen the image. It's on the internet.
21:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Your vagina's on the internet?
21:07 Mary Roach? It's in ultrasound. It doesn't... it's a grainy. It's the most G-rated, X-rated...
21:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I bet someone colored it in and made it like real. All right, go on.
21:15 Mary Roach? Oh, God, I hope not.
21:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right.
21:17 Mary Roach? But anyway, it was an interesting experience in that it, uh...
21:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Did you learn anything about yourself?
21:21 Mary Roach? No, I didn't learn anything about myself. It felt less like sex than like some awkward thing that you have done at the hospital. You know, I'm wearing the little dorky Hospital Johnny with the open back, pair of socks, and, and there's equipment everywhere. So it was a very
21:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Sanitized.
21:35 Mary Roach? perfunctory and sanitized version of sex.
21:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I got you.
21:38 Mary Roach? Really not the kind of sex you would want to be having.
21:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But that means you're living your books. This is extraordinary.
21:44 Mary Roach? I'd try.
21:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is the journalist who gets the story, who, if I gotta have sex, I'll do it.
21:50 Mary Roach? Yeah, if I have to have sex.
21:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Dammit, I gotta have sex for this one.
21:54 Mary Roach? I took one for the reader. I did.
21:59 Speaker 03 Wow.
22:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You gotta do the research.
22:02 Speaker 03 Oh, man, that sounds terrible. I hope she had a vibrator at least.
22:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, no, she had her husband, and apparently she said he did fine. Gave him some Viagra, it was working.
22:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, but did she enjoy it? I mean, no.
22:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, she didn't, because it didn't have the flowers, like you said. But it's interesting, earlier we were talking about sort of monogamy, and I think about, you know, how do you know if we're monogamous? I mean, when you walk down the street, do you feel, I'll do, yeah. Is that how you feel too?
22:26 Speaker 03 No, but also, isn't all men want to spread their seed?
22:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Perhaps, but I'm saying the bonobos are not buying each other flowers, right? One is not coming up with a daisy, they're just doing it.
22:36 Speaker 03 I don't know. For me, maybe I'm special, but when I met my guy, it was just like
22:43 Speaker 03 he was game over for everybody. He's the best one.
22:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Your guy here, who you wrote the book with.
22:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, I'm very lucky, and it doesn't happen to everybody.
22:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
22:52 Speaker 03 Also, I think if you do find someone, it's something you work on, right? I guess?
22:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, it's work. It's always work.
22:57 Speaker 03 I don't know, what did you love with your lady?
22:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, not work.
22:59 Speaker 03 I mean, but you, maybe you want to get with other ladies?
23:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, so, we've married 25 years, we've got kids, there's a whole world going on there. And what's interesting, you walk by the clubs, and they're all like, the 20-somethings, not married, no kids, all going in there trying to find the love of their life.
23:14 Speaker 03 Right.
23:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, and then there's a whole other line of the married people, trying to find people out. It's an interesting opposite thing.
23:21 Speaker 03 I wonder if the line of married people maybe settled when they shouldn't have.
23:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh.
23:26 Speaker 03 Like, I think you have to really, um
23:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Keep looking.
23:30 Speaker 03 know. But I'm also lucky, and I, and when I was single, which was 30 years of my life, and anyone brought up their romantic relationships, I was like Shut up! This is not real! You know, so I'm sure people are like, "Pinky."
23:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, we have no training for what happens after you're married. Because all the fairy tales say they lived happily ever after.
23:49 Speaker 03 Right.
23:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The story's only up until they get married.
23:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, because then it's your bliss, right?
23:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the assumption, but there's no data. It's not from the fairy tales. And what was your state of mind writing this? Like, were you aroused by doing this?
24:01 Speaker 03 Um, no, because like, the Casey Anthony trial was going on at the same time.
24:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nobody said you gotta watch TV.
24:07 Speaker 03 The Amanda Knox trial, so I was just like, really distracted.
24:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nobody says you gotta watch TV at all. You just put yourself in a room and just write.
24:16 Speaker 03 Oh, is that how it works? That sounds magical. You just go in a room and it all just flows out of you? Because you're an astrophysicist?
24:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There it is. When we come back with StarTalk Radio, more on our show dedicated to the science of sex.
24:34 Speaker 03 Wow! That's not a good sound.
24:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're back on StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, Kristen Schaal.
24:59 Speaker 03 Hello, sir.
25:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Am I pronouncing that right? Schaal.
25:02 Speaker 03 Schaal.
25:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you go.
25:04 Speaker 03 The longer you can make it, the better.
25:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I got you. And in these segments, we've been replaying my audio clips of my interview with Mary Roach, who wrote the book Bonk, all about the research into sex over the decades and over the centuries.
25:17 Speaker 03 Really? She did it, she researched for centuries?
25:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? She's 300 years old. So apparently, experiments have been done for quite some time just to understand what are the secrets to good sex, for example. Let's find out what Mary Roach has to say about the secret to good sex.
25:32 Speaker 03 Okay.
25:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's one thing to have all these lab-coded people observe others stimulating themselves or having sex, that's one thing.
25:40 Mary Roach? Right.
25:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So another thing, if the fruits of all this research could be put into a volume that would advise people of how to have better sex.
25:48 Mary Roach? Right.
25:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A manual. Give me a recipe, so we go home, we can make it even better.
25:53 Mary Roach? Right.
25:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Have anybody done this?
25:54 Mary Roach? Yes, Masters and Johnson actually did a study where they had straight couples, gay couples, long-time couples, and couples who had just met. And they all looked at what they were doing, whether they had orgasm, how easily they had orgasm, etc. And they came to some conclusions, and what was interesting was that the long-term couples were having the best sex, and the reason was that they were...
26:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They knew each other's spots.
26:18 Mary Roach? Yeah, well, they were also living in the moment, in that they weren't just sort of going like, "Well, you know, first I gotta do this to her, and then I gotta diddle that for a little while, and then I do this, and that oughta do it." They were losing themselves.
26:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Diddle that for a while.
26:32 Mary Roach? It was like, I was gonna say, the gay couples were having better sex than the straight, because the straight couples, like, the guy would be going, "Oh, I know she likes someone, I'll do this, and I'll do that, that oughta do it." That was formulaic sex, but the gay couples, and the long-term gay couples in particular, would take their time, and they were kind of focused on the other person's responses. They were very much kind of losing themselves in it, and not just going through the motions. So, all those things you see on Cosmo, "These ten tips to drive him wild," no, it's really more just like...
27:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Cosmo the magazine.
27:05 Mary Roach? Yeah.
27:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You say "Cosmo" around me, I'm thinking "Cosmos the Universe," so I have to specify.
27:09 Mary Roach? Oh, sorry.
27:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Cosmopolitan, the magazine, where every issue is about diet, sex, and how to be better in bed with your boyfriend.
27:17 Mary Roach? Exactly.
27:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
27:19 Mary Roach? Exactly. So, they were finding that secret little techniques and tips was not the answer. It was more about losing yourself in the moment, and just going with it, and focusing on the other person's arousal, that was arousing for people.
27:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mmm.
27:31 Mary Roach? Not just focusing on yourself. Sounds really hokey, but kind of being one organism.
27:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or being sensitive.
27:38 Mary Roach? Yeah.
27:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's another word for this, isn't it?
27:40 Mary Roach? Being tuned in to the other person's responses and not just...
27:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's being sensitive.
27:44 Mary Roach? Kind of like going, "Okay, now it's your turn, now it's my turn," that kind of... Yeah. So, anyway, that was...
27:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're saying a sensitive man is...
27:50 Mary Roach? Yes, a sensitive man is a good thing. A sensitive woman, and went both ways. Because some of the women were really bad at pleasuring the men. And this is the 70s, presumably women have learned a lot more. The homosexual couples had gender advantage. In other words, "I know it's good, feels good for me, feels good for you."
28:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Got the same organs.
28:07 Mary Roach? Got the same organs. So, they had that advantage going for them.
28:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Same organs.
28:12 Mary Roach? Yeah.
28:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You know exactly what's going on.
28:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You know?
28:16 Speaker 03 Reach around, right?
28:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, did you have tips of your own in your book? The Sexy Book of Sexy Sex that you put in here?
28:26 Speaker 03 Yeah.
28:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? For people to...
28:27 Speaker 03 One of them was to go to the slow zone. And that might have been what Mary was talking about a little bit, too. About being in the moment and just not like a wham-bam thinking...
28:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What's what I've done, people, sometimes there's a time and a place for quickies.
28:39 Speaker 03 Sometimes quickies are really, really exciting.
28:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
28:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're running late.
28:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's the running late sex, right? But the long and slow, you're...
28:48 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, we talk like a week, um, just put some locks on the doors, so, you know. No, I...
28:56 Speaker 03 Again, this is a joke book.
28:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, right.
28:59 Speaker 03 To keep reminding myself.
29:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, this is not a documentary of...
29:02 Speaker 03 No.
29:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, this is a joke.
29:04 Speaker 03 These are all jokes.
29:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
29:06 Speaker 03 Oh, but we do, uh, can't even do it. We had some sex toys, they were really gross. Okay.
29:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You have to get the book.
29:12 Speaker 03 You have to buy the book or, you know, borrow it.
29:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And Mary Roach's book, Bonk, that's been out for a while.
29:18 Speaker 03 How do you spell that?
29:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Bonk, B-O-N-K, exclamation point.
29:21 Speaker 03 Okay, sometimes I'm hearing bonk.
29:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, no, not bunk, is bonk. And of course, Dr. Ruth has a book out. It's all about a woman to understand her own body and sexuality. And I've kept thinking, guys should read that, just so we get secret access to that information.
29:33 Speaker 03 Yeah, it shouldn't be secret.
29:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It shouldn't be.
29:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here's a bit of sexual trivia for my fellow math geeks. When a man ejaculates, 120 million sperm travel through the vas deferens at an average of 28 miles per hour. Wow, but did you know that pigs ejaculate many times more sperm than that? No, no, I don't know that, and I'm not going to ask why you know that, Charles, professor of astrophysics. But once they're transported out of the penile shaft, they slow down to point 0011 miles per hour. Oh, man. Man, yeah. That's why we need rocket boosters. Charles, when StarTalk returns, we'll end our show on the science of sex by featuring more of my interview with the sex therapist. Dr. Ruth Ristheimer.
30:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome back to StarTalk Radio. You've been listening to The Sex Show, featuring Mary Roach, Dr. Ruth, my comedian co-host, Kristen Schaal, and right with me now is Charles Liu. Hey, Neil. Yeah, he is professor of astrophysics, but he should be professor of everything. You know, scientists once theorized that a deeper male voice was correlated with better sperm quality. Oh, well, that explains a lot. Hey, I've got three kids, man. Did you sing baritone or something in some quartet? Yes, and bass. And bass. Yes. A recently published study found that higher levels of testosterone, which leads to deeper voices, can also impair sperm production. Uh-oh.
31:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So while women tend to be more attractive to voices on the Barry White end of the spectrum, that may be because of other high testosterone qualities, like greater strength and overall physical dominance. Oh, well, OK, I don't have to worry about hiding my voice then. No, that's why the skinny guy with the deep voice is so fun to watch. That's true. Right, that's true. Oh, yeah. I am that guy. Last segment of the show, let's hear what Dr. Ruth thinks about the more out-of-this-world aspects of sex.
31:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What is this fascination we have in our films? Where we show other alien creatures and like the men want to have sex with them. Like Captain Kirk. There'd be some blue alien and he's got action in every galaxy.
32:06 Speaker 01 But is the blue alien a male or a female?
32:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, it's a female. Well, apparently these aliens have males and females and these...
32:11 Speaker 01 It doesn't matter to me. I tell you why.
32:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're cool with alien sex?
32:15 Speaker 01 I don't want to engage with alien sex. However, anybody who watches your program...
32:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? She said it here first. She doesn't want it.
32:22 Speaker 01 Ah, that's true. But if that's what helps them not to worry about the stock market. If they can engage in some fantasy and I don't care if the aliens...
32:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? These are competing emotional forces in the world.
32:35 Speaker 01 Absolutely. If they can use an alien, I can think of that, uh, what was the little one? Steve Spielberg's?
32:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, ET. ET.
32:45 Speaker 01 If ET would be a grown up, then I could see that I could go for a walk with him.
32:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
32:52 Speaker 01 But a grown up...
32:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I think you're actually about the same height. I mean, is that why you're saying?
32:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, you know, we have people trying to commercialize access to space. And you go into orbit the Earth. You have, first you have great views. You're also in zero G. You're floating. So if you had the opportunity to have zero G sex, would you?
33:12 Speaker 01 I have always asked the question, do these people in outer space? Some of them are couples. Were they able to have sex or not? Were they?
33:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I think the answer is yes to that.
33:23 Speaker 01 Then I go.
33:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Americans won't admit to it.
33:25 Speaker 01 Then I go.
33:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Also, it's been done...
33:26 Speaker 01 With you. But you have to get permission from your wife. I'm a widow, so I can give the permission. Ask permission from your wife, we go to space.
33:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? My first date in space.
33:41 Speaker 01 Now you are involved in talking also about the stars.
33:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah. Heavenly bodies of another sort.
33:47 Speaker 01 Yes. So you have to help me teach everybody. It's wonderful to engage in that activity while gazing at the stars. Make sure there's no police car next to you in the privacy. But there is nothing better. Then to do it outside.
34:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Outside.
34:07 Speaker 01 With the stars twinkling.
34:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Under the stars.
34:09 Speaker 01 Under the stars, in privacy. On the porch or wherever you can find privacy.
34:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So the ideal case would be a bedroom with a ceiling that opens.
34:17 Speaker 01 That's a brilliant idea. That's a brilliant idea. All of you US are going to want to have that.
34:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, next house I design, that's what it's gonna be. And I quickly have to tell this story. Ten years ago, I edited a volume of Natural History Magazine called City of Stars. And it was about all the ways that New York City, which you wouldn't normally think would conjure images of the universe. It was a, it was an accounting of all the ways that it can and does. And in fact, it's the first, it contained the first photo of Manhattan Henge, where the sun sets on the grid of Manhattan, and it's very beautiful. And you were kind enough to contribute a piece at the end of this volume as one of the prominent New Yorkers, just to comment on the universe in the city. And I don't know if you remember it, and what you said was, from where you live, you, you can't see the night sky, but you do see the George Washington Bridge.
35:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And at night, when it is lit, those lights become your galaxy.
35:13 Speaker 01 That's very true.
35:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And I've not forgotten.
35:15 Speaker 01 And I have to tell you something interesting, because there's now the play about me. And in that play, I remember.
35:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, there's a play? Did I miss this?
35:23 Speaker 01 Yes, the play is called.
35:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You got wine, you got a play.
35:27 Speaker 01 Doctor Ruth Calloway.
35:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You got a book. What?
35:29 Speaker 01 Listen to that. In that play, I recount, and Deborah Jo Rapp is playing me, and I tell of a children's song from Germany before the Nazis, while I was living there for ten and a half years. And that song is all about the stars. So I'm going to get you the translation of that song.
35:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I would love it.
35:52 Speaker 01 It's all about, do you know how many stars are twinkling in the sky?
35:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I would, I would love it.
35:57 Speaker 01 You'll get it.
35:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And there's a famous quote from Oscar Wilde where he said, "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking up to the stars."
36:05 Speaker 01 Oh boy, that's the two of us. I like to look up at the...
36:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm taking you into space, girl.
36:10 Speaker 01 Alright.
36:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This has been Dr. Ruth Westheimer and she books sexually speaking. What every woman, I'm gonna put a little insert here, say, "And man..."
36:18 Speaker 01 Yes.
36:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? "...needs to know about the woman, uh, sexual health." And Ruth, it's been an honor and a pleasure to have you on StarTalk Radio.
36:25 Speaker 01 Thank you so much.
36:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
36:27 Speaker 01 I come to the museum with my grandchildren.
36:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You give me a call, my universe is your universe.
36:33 Speaker 01 Oh, I like that. You're gonna show me the stars.
36:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I will show you more than the stars.
36:36 Speaker 01 And the Milky Way.
36:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And the Milky Way.
36:38 Speaker 01 Alright, more than the stars.
36:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I will show you...
36:40 Speaker 01 Did you hear that?
36:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, the universe has comets and asteroids and gas clouds and the edge of the universe itself. I'll save it for you.
36:51 Speaker 01 Thank you.
36:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You've been listening to StarTalk Radio. As always, keep looking up.
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