Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast The Science of Hip Hop with GZA (Part 2) About this episode The role of science in hip hop culture is the theme that runs through the conclusion of Neil deGrasse Tyson’s interview with rapper GZA, with hip hop expert Prof. Chris Emdin.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson, natural physicist at the American Museum of Natural History here in New York City. Come by, check it out when you're in town. I got with me the one, the only Chuck Nice.
0:28 Speaker 01 Thank God. You're not his only one and only.
0:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, apparently there's not because I went to find you on Twitter and there's 22 other Chuck Nice's.
0:35 Speaker 01 This is so true.
0:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're not the one and only Chuck Nice comic.
0:40 Speaker 01 That's right. That you know of.
0:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I've got with me also in studio Chris Hemden. Chris, thanks for coming on to do this.
0:47 Speaker 02 Absolute pleasure to be here.
0:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I found you because we're featuring clips from Jizza, the hip-hop artist, and this is your specialty, thinking about inner-city hip-hop culture and how you can actually parlay that into science education.
0:59 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
0:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Which is an awesome job. I mean, that's just, we'll clone you, we'll put you on the top of the list for the cloning.
1:04 Speaker 02 Then I'll be just like Chuck.
1:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, there'll be 22 more of you.
1:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm just curious because you came to this show in a bowtie, in a jacket, in a starched shirt and a pocket.
1:16 Speaker 01 Pocket square.
1:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Pocket square.
1:18 Speaker 01 That's looking good.
1:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, the last time I looked at folks with bitten wraps, their pants are hanging low. So first, what's up with that?
1:25 Speaker 02 Well, you know, the thing is that hip-hop artists, like the most prolific scientists of our time, are very anti-establishment. So whatever the norm is in the world, they want to be the opposite. And so, you know, for a lot of young people, they look at who they perceive to be the most anti-establishment. Often it's those little folks who are in the criminal justice system. And so the aesthetic, like the look of the pants hanging low is just from prison culture.
1:46 Speaker 01 Because they take your belt.
1:47 Speaker 02 Right, but the students don't know that. So they don't realize that their pants are hanging low because in prison, you know, you don't have a belt, so you can't kill yourself, pretty much. And so that's why your pants are hanging low.
1:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or others.
1:58 Speaker 02 Young people don't know that. They just see the look of it. And then beyond that also, you know.
2:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, I'm sorry. Maybe I just never paid attention to the buttocks of prisoners, but.
2:07 Speaker 01 You haven't been to the right prison, sir.
2:11 Speaker 02 But you know, that's such a great point.
2:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm just saying, so had I paid attention, you're saying I would have noticed that they don't wear a belt.
2:19 Speaker 02 They don't wear a belt.
2:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they wear jeans in the mighty prisons, and so the pants just have to hang where they do.
2:23 Speaker 02 Right, and beyond that also, beyond that having to build it, so it's sort of in prison culture, it's also a sign, show other inmates that you are available.
2:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh.
2:33 Speaker 02 Right, with the pants hanging low. But the thing is, the young people aren't, they don't, they don't know the sort of nuances of where that, that...
2:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The prison nuance.
2:39 Speaker 02 Right, the prison nuance.
2:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They just see what it looks like.
2:41 Speaker 02 They just see what it looks like, and it looks anti-establishment, it looks bad boyish, it looks, you know, it makes me look different than the norm. They wear it without knowing the history behind it.
2:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh my god.
2:50 Speaker 02 Listen, I talk to young people all the time, and I say, "Let's talk about this pants hanging low. Do you know where it comes from?" "Nah, it looks cool. Let's talk about where it comes from." And once I start telling them, they are mortified. They are mortified.
3:01 Speaker 01 Did you know that your pants hanging low is really saying to another inmate, "Caw."
3:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In my, thank you for this illuminating history of the low-hanging pants. You know, in my interview with Jizza, I wanted to know the history of the Wu-Tang Clan, because he's one of the founding members. Let's find out what he tells us about that. Tell me about the, a little bit of history of the Wu-Tang Clan.
3:27 Speaker 03 Wu-Tang is a group mostly from Staten Island, well Staten Island-based group, some of us are from Brooklyn. And we put an album out in 93 called Enter the Thirty-Six Chambers, Wu-Tang. And nine members at the time, some of us had solo careers prior to that.
3:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you were assembled out of the musical era.
3:47 Speaker 03 Assembled. Yeah, many of us, childhood, friends, family.
3:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And tell me about its influence.
3:52 Speaker 03 Very strong influence, very, very.
3:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How do you account for that, other than just your great performance? Is there some other, there's gotta be something else going on there.
3:58 Speaker 03 Well, nine individuals.
4:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because it affected...
4:01 Speaker 03 Nine different personalities.
4:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Culture.
4:03 Speaker 03 Of course.
4:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As though hip-hop took a turn.
4:05 Speaker 03 Well, every now and then, you know, history takes its turn, you know? You have conscious rap at some point, then you have party rap, then you have revolutionary rap, then it comes back around again, conscious, party.
4:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you would characterize...
4:18 Speaker 03 Wu-Tang was just, is a group that was just, you couldn't resist at the time. Nine members, nine individuals, different personalities. Great music. We all had solo careers also. I mean, albums that were charting, four or five albums on the charts at the same time. It's a big explosion. It's a big bang in the influences.
4:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So how would you say rap and hip-hop differed emerging on the other side of the Wu-Tang Clan compared to before? That's a portal that the genre passed through.
4:46 Speaker 03 I think it's forever going through portals. It's forever changing.
4:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, if it's not going through portals, it means people aren't as creative as they ought to be.
4:54 Speaker 03 Or they're just going into certain areas they've never been and don't know anything about. But, I mean, it's forever changing musically, far as corporate-wise. I mean, it's on a whole nother level, far as the money, the business side. But I think lyrically, it's regressed.
5:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What do you mean?
5:10 Speaker 03 I mean, far as the lyrical side of it. I mean, if you think of, if you take hip-hop from the eighties or this golden era, even in the nineties, and the majority of the MCs that were out there, they were mostly lyrical. Even my first trip I made to the Bronx, one of my first trips to the South Bronx from Staten Island.
5:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Born and raised in the Bronx.
5:29 Speaker 03 It was around eleven. And we had two MCs in our whole borough of Staten Island. And when I got to the Bronx, a whole bunch of MCs. And I have this line, I say, "I was born with the mic in my hand and I took it from Brooklyn to the S-I land. I pulled up on the block, got out the truck. It was the first of pit stops. The era of the spinning top, around the birth of hip-hop. That was something I had identified with, so I made it my point to exploit this fly gift. And me and the RZA made trips to the BX, a mass of ferocious MCs, town of T-Rex. Giants in every ways, rap flows for every day. We knew we would get a reward with a price to pay. The basic training was beyond entertaining, just a cadence of verbal expression, self-explaining.
6:12 Speaker 03 So those are my early days of traveling to the Bronx, but they had this mass of ferocious MCs. And everyone was so... Lyrically good that it only made us sharpen our sword. Nowadays, it's not like that. I mean, I hear stuff you hear.
6:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So they're not as literate?
6:27 Speaker 03 No.
6:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what you're saying?
6:27 Speaker 03 At all.
6:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Do they still have ideas? They just don't know how to express it?
6:30 Speaker 03 I think, I think many imaginations are sterile at the time.
6:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Why?
6:34 Speaker 03 Because you're not producing anything new, like.
6:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They don't have a muse.
6:38 Speaker 03 It's the same thing.
6:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The universe is talking to you and you're responding.
6:42 Speaker 03 Yes.
6:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They've got nothing talking to them.
6:44 Speaker 03 They just, no, they don't hear, you know, when your parents say, "You're not listening to me." You know, you know they're speaking, you hear the sound, you feel the vibration, but it's not resonating.
6:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That doesn't, doesn't get in there?
6:54 Speaker 03 No.
6:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So the universe is talking to you every day?
6:56 Speaker 03 Of course.
6:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now.
6:57 Speaker 03 Not only the universe, the earth, people, planets, objects, beings, I'm, I'm inspired by all. You know, I once said, you know, in a lecture, when I was speaking about inspiration, I can be inspired by the, by the spider because his web is 50 times or 20 times stronger than steel. So that's amazing in itself and, and I'm inspired by that. And I can write.
7:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you have to know enough about the spider's web to even be inspired by it?
7:21 Speaker 03 Yes, but you have to be willing to learn.
7:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You gotta be curious. Right, right, right. So there's a whole community of rappers who've lost their sources of creativity. That's gotta be it.
7:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, and everyone is following, majority is following. If it's 199 follow, only one raps in his own voice. So everyone is following, so it's the same thing over and over.
7:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So we gotta spread this, this, uh...
7:41 Speaker 03 And it's not really, the story you're telling is how you tell the story. I think being in a club can be interesting, depending on what, what you're talking about.
7:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? When we come back, more of my interview with Jizza and the banter consequential to that, when we come back to StarTalk.
8:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back, StarTalk Radio. I got with me Chuck Nice in studio, Chris Emden. Professor Dude from Columbia University. Thanks for coming into studio for this. We're analyzing the culture of hip-hop and rap. And your specialty is exploring how to bring science to the inner city in ways that are culturally relevant. And, and that's, that's awesome. Just give me, give, an example of that?
8:34 Speaker 02 I mean, you know, I just... Basing this on the last clip we heard from Jizza, this infatuation in hip-hop with sort of completion and circle emotion is really, really intriguing. The fact that when rappers get together to engage with each other, they do so in what they call a cipher. And a cipher means that we have to position ourselves in a circle. And this notion of completion within our modes of communication, and also completion and circle emotion in the universe and in outer space.
8:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Some of this sounds kind of new-agey.
8:59 Speaker 02 Well, it is. It is new-agey. But that's how scientific thought has developed, right? Isn't it, you know, you get to a point where...
9:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You need a fresh idea that can take you to a new place.
9:07 Speaker 02 Exactly. And that's what we're doing in the world of education.
9:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But at some point, your plane has to land from that. I mean, you gotta land somewhere with that, alright?
9:14 Speaker 02 You land just enough...
9:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You gotta land on a curriculum somewhere.
9:16 Speaker 02 You land just enough to make some sense of what's just happened, and then you take off once more.
9:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, okay. Alright. That can work. And so this...
9:23 Speaker 01 When does the layover happen?
9:26 Speaker 02 Depends on who you fly with.
9:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In my interview with Jizza, he mentioned the Five Percenters. Is this a cult? Is this... So I had to explore it a little more. Apparently it was started in Harlem by Clarence 13X, who was a disciple of Malcolm X, alright? So this would have been the Nation of Islam back then. Is that what they call them, right? The American local version of Islam was...
9:52 Speaker 02 The American local version of Islam was the Nation of Islam. Could be described in some way as a splinter group.
9:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Splinter, yeah.
9:59 Speaker 02 I guess. And you can sort of describe the Five Percenters as a splinter off the splinter.
10:04 Speaker 01 Off the splinter?
10:05 Speaker 02 Right.
10:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I don't know if that's good or bad, but...
10:06 Speaker 01 They're the toothpick group.
10:09 Speaker 01 Oh, gotcha. We had the splinter group, and then now we just, mm, I'm a Five Percenter.
10:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so they were otherwise known as the Nation of Gods and Earths. I have my notes here. I gotta try to understand more about that. Wait, so if we do the math right, they asserted that only 10% of the people in the world know the truth of existence.
10:29 Speaker 02 That's right.
10:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? 85% of the world want to keep 15% in ignorance, but there's only 5% left.
10:36 Speaker 02 Who are the upper echelon, those who become self-aware, who have knowledge of self, which has actually been added on as one of the extra pillars of hip-hop. So hip-hop... is rapping, emceeing, b-boying and DJing.
10:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What's b-boying?
10:50 Speaker 02 B-boying you would know as breakdancing. It's conventionally known as b-boying.
10:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I wouldn't know, excuse me.
10:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to play you, you know. But so, and then, and then, and so those are the four, the four elements or four pillars of hip-hop and knowledge itself has become an extra pillar of the culture. And that's a, an old-
11:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, it's a good thing.
11:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's paying respect to the influence of the five percenters on hip-hop culture.
11:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, let's find out what Jizah says about this.
11:13 Speaker 02 Alright.
11:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because I, I wanted to know how that played with spirituality because he cared much about this and I come to it as a scientist and sometimes the intersection of those two can produce great art. So let's find out what Jizah tells us. So, tell me about the five percent.
11:27 Speaker 03 The nation of the gods and earths? Yeah.
11:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I, I, it's, it's mysterious to me.
11:31 Speaker 03 Well, five percent nation is the nation of the gods and earths. It started from Clarence.
11:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Gods on earth.
11:36 Speaker 03 Gods and earths.
11:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Gods and earths.
11:38 Speaker 03 Yeah, they call it the nation of gods and earths.
11:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Five percent?
11:41 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And five percent of what?
11:43 Speaker 03 Well, five percent represents five percent of population of the planet.
11:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
11:47 Speaker 03 That knows the truth about certain things and not mystery worshippers as far as worshiping a mystery god or a god that you have to die to see in order to be able to see.
11:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so with gods on earth, they're there and tangible-
12:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, just like there was gods in, in Egypt, you know.
12:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Among you.
12:05 Speaker 03 Well, you know, and, and this was, this was started in the sixties.
12:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Who, who started it?
12:09 Speaker 03 Um, Clarence XIII X. Smith.
12:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
12:12 Speaker 03 That's his name. And, um, he was part of the Muslim mosque and he left.
12:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So the nation of Islam?
12:17 Speaker 03 Yes, the nation of Islam and he left and he took some followers with him.
12:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, he left from the nation of Islam?
12:23 Speaker 03 Yes.
12:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's a spin-off?
12:24 Speaker 03 Yes.
12:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
12:25 Speaker 03 And, um, you know, took some of the Muslim lessons, the alphabets and all that and started teaching the youths in the street.
12:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? People never happy with the religion, like, there's always a split. Look at the history of religions.
12:36 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But that's why there's so many religions, right? You start with one, oh, I need, I gotta feel a little differently about it. Let me go this way and that way. Okay, so how many are part of this?
12:45 Speaker 03 Um, I, I, I mean, I can't tell you the, I couldn't tell you the numbers.
12:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I mean, is it a hundred, a thousand, a million?
12:49 Speaker 03 Probably several million.
12:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Worldwide?
12:51 Speaker 03 At this time, yeah.
12:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so you associate with this?
12:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, from my early days.
12:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so what does, what does it do for you?
12:58 Speaker 03 It got me where I'm, where I am now because it all started with us studying lessons and we would study our lessons, some of the lessons related to earth science, like what makes rain, hell, snow and earthquakes. That was part of the quest. From early days, you know, those one of the lessons.
13:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it was an academic curriculum?
13:13 Speaker 03 Yes, the circumference of the planet. You know, light traveling at one hundred and eighty-six thousand miles per second. These were some of our lessons that we studied coming up. So kind of gave us an edge on being lyrical, the wordplay and flowing and just knowing things word for word, you know, and started us on our venture to learn more about the universe.
13:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So forgive the word, but it's kind of like a baptism into the natural world?
13:36 Speaker 03 Yes, it is, yeah. Baptism to the natural world, the way of life. Not a religion, though.
13:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This five percent group, it's a, it's a philosophy.
13:45 Speaker 03 Yeah.
13:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you say it's not a religion because religion, normally, there's mystical beings that are praised and...
13:50 Speaker 03 Right, idols that are worshiped.
13:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And that sort of thing, that, none of that is in this?
13:54 Speaker 03 No, it's just about uplifting the youth and, and teaching them that they are great and God is within yourself.
14:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As opposed to somewhere out in the clouds?
14:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, you can't see, somewhere in the clouds and...
14:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? On Mount Olympus, wherever.
14:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, and how everything is within yourself.
14:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so that can be a powerful philosophy for someone who doesn't think they're worth anything, they're on the street?
14:14 Speaker 03 That would be a great philosophy for someone that doesn't think they're worth anything, only if they believe it.
14:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, some do, right? Some don't get out.
14:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, some don't.
14:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, I'm heartened to learn that the natural world can serve as a force of good in this way. Most people that I know who come up, you know, there's their life and their religion and then the natural world is something else out there and they don't see themselves as part of it. And your lyrics and just your tone and everything you say makes it clear that you are part of this world and the world is becoming part of you.
14:44 Speaker 03 Yes.
14:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Together.
14:46 Speaker 03 One.
14:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, some deep stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, what's your reaction?
14:52 Speaker 02 To me, it just reaffirms the deep connections between science and hip-hop culture. I mean, this, this sort of philosophy of hip-hop, a philosophy...
14:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In this case, it was nature, when you think of it that way.
15:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, nature, but I mean, let's, let's think really quickly about, you know, folks who, who developed philosophies of science, like the Koons and the Polynesians of the world and the way that they position science as, you know, this sort of elite group and the folks who make the decisions for the rest of the world and, you know, that aligns to a five-percenter view of, of hip-hop. And so, so you have those corollaries philosophically, but then also in the, the nature of the interactions of the five percenters. It's a sort of a distinct language. Science for many people is really all in the naming. Right, by identifying a certain practice-
15:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is Pluto a planet, or not?
15:29 Speaker 02 Right. No, no, genuinely, right? Or if I have a certain way of knowing and being and existing in the world, it can be either pseudoscience or science based upon whether or not my theory is accepted by a set of peers who accepts that as scientific.
15:42 Speaker 01 However, there is some empirical evidence that must exist for it to be science.
15:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's not whether you vote that something's true, it's whether the experiments show it.
15:51 Speaker 02 But the, so the theory exists, and the empirical evidence supports the existing theory.
15:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
15:56 Speaker 02 And then it becomes a valid theory.
15:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, correct.
15:59 Speaker 02 Now, within-
15:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because you can invent anything you want, but nature's the ultimate arbiter.
16:03 Speaker 02 Right. And that, and that sort of, that model, if you look within hip-hop culture and what the 5%ers produce, it's really exactly just that. So, there's a theory for how we look at how we exist in the world, that the god is within the human being. And so, if that's the case, then you have, then they provide the followers with evidence to support the fact that the Asiatic man is god over all they contain. Now, it sounds kind of pseudoscience and weird-like, but the process for validating that way of thinking is inherently scientific. I.e., I develop a theory, and then I find the empirical evidence to support the fact that that theory exists.
16:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, but you gotta be careful, because if you can be so committed to an idea, wanting it to be correct-
16:38 Speaker 01 Then you try to prove the idea, you'll force yourself to come up with the answer.
16:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right, and you dust under the rug those things that don't fit your idea.
16:47 Speaker 01 The contrary.
16:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's a lot of that that goes on.
16:49 Speaker 02 Everywhere.
16:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Everywhere.
16:51 Speaker 02 Everywhere.
16:51 Speaker 01 Right. Like, for instance, the theory that I am a 1%er when everyone knows that I'm broke.
17:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Exactly. Wait, so if this 5%er movement is successful, then they're no longer 5%, they're like 10%, or 50%, or 100%.
17:12 Speaker 02 Right.
17:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They don't have a movement.
17:13 Speaker 02 The quest eternally continues, right?
17:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, once they can tell everybody that it's within everybody, and no one is withholding the knowledge-
17:22 Speaker 02 I think it's an acceptance of the tension that will forever exist.
17:25 Speaker 01 Hmm. So that makes the supposition that there will always be 85% of the people who are just ignorant.
17:32 Speaker 02 It does in many respects, but the quest of the person who has the knowledge is to always ensure that you pull as many as possible into the fold. I mean, there is, there is a tension that you can never resolve.
17:42 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
17:43 Speaker 02 But again, that's inherently the nature of science.
17:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back on StarTalk Radio and I've got Chuck Nice here and Chris Emdin down from Columbia University. Thanks for coming. Chuck, I just had to just quickly say you've got a show.
18:08 Speaker 02 Yes.
18:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You just bust into people's homes and talk about it.
18:11 Speaker 02 That is, that is exactly what happens.
18:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's a show with that title. I don't even want to believe that.
18:16 Speaker 02 Home Strange Home.
18:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? On Home and Garden.
18:20 Speaker 02 On HGTV.
18:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? HGTV.
18:22 Speaker 02 Every Friday at night.
18:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You are so not coming to my house because I don't know if the camera's behind you.
18:26 Speaker 02 I'll be there whether you want me to or not.
18:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Talking about strange people with their strange homes. Damn, not even the home is sacred anymore. Well, we'll so look for that Friday nights.
18:35 Speaker 02 Friday nights, man. I'll be watching.
18:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, but that's not what we're here to talk about. We're talking about the hip-hop culture and Jizza featuring clips from my interview with Jizza. And you were getting so in the previous segment, so deep into the philosophy of the five percenters. And from where I sit as an empiricist and as a scientist, it looks a little out there and I gotta like pull in the reins a bit.
18:58 Speaker 02 Of course.
18:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that it can actually confront reality and maybe you gotta float before you land. I'm okay with that.
19:08 Speaker 02 It certainly is a case of floating before you land, right?
19:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because at the end of the day, you're a science educator, you're an education professional. It's gotta land as a curriculum somehow. There's gotta be some lesson plan.
19:19 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
19:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That comes out of this, this talk.
19:23 Speaker 02 You know what it is? There has to be an appreciation of the complexities of the culture in order for you to be able to use it. And there are a lot of folks who do hip-hop education. They do rap education. They have no idea about the five percenters. They have no idea about what the experience is like of youth in urban settings and so in order for me to do this kind of work to connect young people to science, I have to ensure that I'm deeply immersed in all of the culture.
19:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so you can, so you're not taken by surprise?
19:45 Speaker 02 Right.
19:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you can tap it if necessary?
19:46 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
19:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If it's fertile.
19:47 Speaker 02 Exactly.
19:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
19:48 Speaker 02 Exactly.
19:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, and you know, I'm curious about role models. I think the concept of role model is overrated personally. But, because you can be inspired by anything, whether or not it's a human being. And nor should you be so invested in one individual that you're committed to everything they do. Spread it out. Do it à la carte is how I think about it. I spoke with Jizza about what does it mean does, because he clearly is a role model to some people, just how does he react to them? I'm gonna read you a posting on our Facebook page. Michael Rafalas, if I pronounced that right. "As a teenager," so we solicited inquiries because they knew you were gonna be on StarTalk. "As a teenager, it was not my school, but it was Wu-Tang who taught me the idea of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
20:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It was because of this idea that I went into physics. I'm now a high school science teacher with a passion for sharing my love of science and improving science literacy."
20:41 Speaker 03 Wow, that's great.
20:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? With that going on, I'm not even necessary. Let's do more of that. What do we need me for? If you can sing, your influence does this. This is all we're trying to do here.
20:56 Speaker 03 I think that's one of the unique things about being an artist is that you have a voice that people hear and listen to, so it's important to say something that's important.
21:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How many artists don't?
21:06 Speaker 03 Ninety-nine out of a hundred.
21:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So if your audience are not just moving to the beat, they're being philosophically schooled, schooled in a good way, not in the abusive way.
21:16 Speaker 03 Right.
21:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You got schooled philosophically schooled. That's a whole other understanding of the role music can play in our lives, isn't it? I mean, think about it. Most music, nobody's saying, "I wanna play this so that I can, my mind can be in a new academic place." That doesn't happen.
21:34 Speaker 03 No, I think some musicians think like that.
21:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, they can be in a new musical place, but in a scholarly place?
21:42 Speaker 03 Right.
21:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The person here telling me he's a physics teacher in high school because he listens to Wu-Tang? I don't know anyone who's listened to any other performer who could make that claim. No one said, "Elvis, you know, I became a science teacher because I listened to your song." This just doesn't happen. So have you fully embraced the power over life's trajectories that you might actually be wielding?
22:10 Speaker 03 Yes, I have. I mean, that's just one story out of many. I mean, I've heard several stories throughout the years, just about the influence that Wu-Tang has had on two generations now of people. People that started with us, grew with us, and then their children or their nephews or nieces. So it's like a whole nother generation of kids that's listening. I'm honored to be part of that. That's a great thing.
22:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow, so I have to tell you before I began my interview with Jizza, I had no understanding of the magnitude of their influence. And like I said, it's one thing to say, "Oh, I was inspired to stay in love, or to break up, or to be happy today because of a song I listened to." Nobody talks about pop music as something that sends them back to school. So how do you, that must make you feel good-
23:09 Speaker 01 Absolutely, I love it.
23:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As an educator-
23:11 Speaker 01 It's everything I believe in.
23:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Everything.
23:15 Speaker 01 Yeah. But it makes sense, because if you think about it, kids, when they listen to hip-hop, they listen to it over and over and over and over again. And as they start to do that, they start to recognize what these words are saying.
23:27 Speaker 02 Right.
23:27 Speaker 01 And therein lies the inspiration.
23:28 Speaker 02 Right. Particularly for a young person who's listening to a rapper who is pulling from different spaces. And so, you know, it forces people to want to study. You know, if you listen to a Jizza, and he's talking about the cosmos, and he's talking about stars, he's talking about the universe-
23:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whoa, where'd that come from?
23:42 Speaker 02 Right, I'm memorizing the lyrics, and all of a sudden, I want to understand it.
23:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it's inspiration to then learn more?
23:47 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
23:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There it goes. More on my interview with Jizza when StarTalk Radio comes back.
24:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is StarTalk. We've just returned. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm here with Jeff Nice and Chris Hemden. Thanks, Professor Chris Hemden.
24:18 Speaker 01 Chris Hemden's fine.
24:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Bowtie-dawning Chris Hemden. He's got it, that he tied it himself. I still am learning to do that. I'll get lessons from you later. I'm amazed that you're wearing a bowtie and you're here advising us on the hip-hop culture. Because I don't know that I've ever seen a bowtie on anyone spitting a rap. So, have you?
24:38 Speaker 01 Have I spit a rap?
24:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? My advice in other people. All it would take is for you to spit a rap and that would. We just need more stylists in hip-hop and that's what changed the whole thing. So, you know, we talked about Jizza as a role model in previous segment. What intrigues me is what roles science and the themes that we discover as scientists have played and can play in the creativity of artists. And I had to get Jizza's reaction to that, so let's see what he says.
25:06 Speaker 03 First, I make music for myself with the hopes of other people liking it and accepting it and embracing it. But I'm not going into the studio with this idea of that I want to put out a song that's gonna draw in all ages or not. Let me put this in a different way. I don't, I don't go into the studio thinking about making a club song or a club hit and hoping that a whole bunch of club party goers will, you know, like this song. It's not done like that. It's done from here first for myself, then it's put out. And then hopefully it, it reaches others and they can learn.
25:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It just means you're a pure artist. That's what that means. You're not, you're doing it because it's in you, not because it's been required of you. Two different products come out of those two possibilities.
25:54 Speaker 03 I think it's, it's about becoming one with whatever you do or your music. You know, like when I watch physicists or astrophysicists speak about the universe, I mean, they're so excited, excited about it, enthused about explaining it and they have this passion and this for it. That's, that's how it is with writing and lyrics.
26:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, I, I, I like that. I mean, at first I think it's a luxury for an artist to just create art without reference to who's gonna buy it. All right? And so if he's just creating art and he's feeling the universe, the universe is gonna show up in his art. Yep. Is that right? You, you agree with that? Absolutely. That, that, it works. So, so we ought to take all performers and give them science class. Just, just up the chance that maybe something might happen in their creativity. By the way, there's already some of that, but it's a little more explicit. Do you know the Galaxy Song from Monty Python? I don't think I do. Yeah, yeah, it, it, it gives data on the universe. It gives the age of the universe, the speed that the earth is going. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and there's another one about the sun. The sun is a ball of incandescent gas.
26:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, those are explicit science songs, obviously, and they're fun. There's the Element Song by, uh, what's the guy's name from Harvard?
27:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The guy, Timothy Leary, right? Okay. So, he recites all 103 then-known elements in a song. He rhymes them. Yeah, that was a challenge. No, so that's obviously, that's a different kind of creative process. It's not so much from the soul as it is, here's a lesson plan, let me hand it. So, but I think all of that can play a role.
27:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, the explicit connections allow you to be able to have a command of the information you're given in the moment, right? So, if the goal for you in your science class-
27:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Did you hear that sentence? The explicit-
27:38 Speaker 02 I'm sorry, I'll slow it up.
27:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, that was a great sentence. It was a great academic-
27:43 Speaker 02 It's an academic sentence, alright.
27:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was an academic sentence, I love it.
27:47 Speaker 02 So, let, if I'm really, if I'm really like, clear about giving you the scientific information, that'll only get out of it, you will only be able to give back to me a specific set of scientific information. So, if I, if I create a periodic table rhyme, you will know all the elements on the periodic table. You wouldn't necessarily be intrigued by the periodic table.
28:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you'll get them in rhyme order, not-
28:10 Speaker 02 Not in appropriate order.
28:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not in order of atomic numbers.
28:13 Speaker 02 The halogens will be there, here, you'll be like, what the heck's going on? You know, the explicit connection, it fosters the type of education system that we have, which is really a banking model. I deposit information, you give me back information. And if we, if we have a schooling system where that's the focus of science and that's-
28:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A banking model of education, right?
28:31 Speaker 02 That's what we get. The more implicit, the more implicit connections where you, you make these connections for the young people, but you don't give all the, all the information in between. What Jizza does when he's taking these disparate ideas and making that into rhyme, that forces the person to be curious, want to explore on their own, they will still be able to give you the core information, but it fosters the creativity necessary to become-
28:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What you're saying, if you get handed information and you're supposed to spit it back for an exam, there is no occasion to be creative about it at all.
29:00 Speaker 02 At all. But you, and you end up being a successful science student, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be a successful scientist.
29:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nor a creative artist.
29:10 Speaker 02 Right. That makes sense. It's like teaching a child the ABCs. But you, you can sing that ABC song all you want, it doesn't mean you can read.
29:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right. You know, that same rhyme is to "Twinkle, twinkle, little star," did you know that?
29:22 Speaker 02 You know what? That's the first time I made that connection.
29:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, you sing ABCs, I will go out and-
29:26 Speaker 02 A, B, C, D, E, L, T-
29:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? "Twinkle, little star, how I wonder where you are." Star Talk Radio, we'll be back in a moment.
29:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome back to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your host. I got Chuck E. Nice here. What's up? Loved having you. And Chris Emin, thanks for coming down from Columbia to do this. A pleasure to be here. Put an academic angle. A little spin on it. A little spin on our interview clips with Jizza. And this is our last segment, and I'm sad, because I wanted this to just keep going. And we... One of the important points you made in the last segment was that you can just learn information, spit it back, you might even get an A on the test. Yep. And you'll be rated as a good student. But at the end of the day, where's your creativity? And creativity comes from putting together pieces of information that you were inspired to explore further. You agree with this? Absolutely.
30:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so, what I know, as a scientist, and what I think some people also know is that the universe can serve as a muse for science, because there's a lot of information out there that is still in need of connectivity. Right. Right? I still need it. I still want it. And so I spoke with Jizza about, you know, how science factors in to his creativity. And let's start, let's go early with this clip and see what he tells us. What's your favorite science concept? That keeps coming back to you when you're penning lyrics? Could be an idea, or an object, or a thing.
31:09 Speaker 03 It's just how everything is connected.
31:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because we are connected?
31:13 Speaker 03 Yes. I mean, it's all amazing, and...
31:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, it inspires you because it's amazing, and so it inspires you? So now I worry that if you learn so much about it that it's no longer amazing, will it stop inspiring you?
31:27 Speaker 03 I don't think I can ever learn so much about it. I mean, because we're learning every day. Even with physicists, y'all discover new things.
31:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, every day.
31:34 Speaker 03 All the time, y'all. Crazy stuff, too. Build stronger. More powerful telescopes and you're going further back into time.
31:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And the particle accelerator, yeah.
31:43 Speaker 03 And exploring new things, so I don't think I can ever learn.
31:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So the universe is your muse.
31:50 Speaker 03 I love it.
31:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As, as, as I think the universe has been for many artists of late. I get a phone call every couple of weeks. There's an artist who's designing a sculpture for a city and they want to align it with the sun, it was a star, and they're feeling the universe. And there was a day when artists, there was other things inspiring artists, but not science. So, do you think it's because science is more accessible today? That it's reaching into the soul of the artist?
32:14 Speaker 03 I think, I think it's more accessible. I also think that, um, people are learning more and more about themselves and their connection with the universe.
32:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, Jizz is a deep guy.
32:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Much deeper. I, I'd known only very little about him. I read his bio before I started the interview. And I came out saying, wow, if every artist were this moved and inspired.
32:36 Speaker 01 Right.
32:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? By what they want to, by the messages they want to deliver.
32:39 Speaker 01 There'd be a lot less crap on the radio.
32:41 Speaker 02 That's definitely true. Or not.
32:45 Speaker 01 Right. Maybe there'd just be more intelligent crap on the radio.
32:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because I, I think about it, I say, look at all the ways a person, someone growing up, they're exposed to advertising, they're exposed to TV, they're exposed to movies, they're exposed to, and if everybody had a mission statement that we want to be more educated at the end of your day, that's a whole different world we're talking about.
33:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And, but you're at the pulse of that, right?
33:07 Speaker 02 And, and that's what I find most fascinating about.
33:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because you wrote a book, what's the title of that book again?
33:11 Speaker 02 Urban Science Education for the Hip-Hop Generation.
33:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Urban Science Education for the Hip-Hop Generation.
33:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that's for, I guess, other educators.
33:19 Speaker 02 It, it's for educators, it's, it's for anybody who's intrigued about how, what connections are there between hip-hop culture and science.
33:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because they're going to presume none up front.
33:26 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I always get that. What the heck are you doing?
33:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, yeah, that's right.
33:30 Speaker 02 Makes no sense, you know, I get that.
33:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're actually promoting this?
33:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? My god, man. Well, okay, so maybe the next book would be promoting science in country western music. Don't stop it, hip-hop.
33:42 Speaker 02 I mean, you know, I think there's, but the, the thing about hip-hop is that it's so deeply connected, I find. I mean, youth who are immersed in hip-hop culture, you know, we, we had this conversation about Jizz and how insightful he is and how deep he is, and I go into urban public schools every week and I meet at least five Jizzers every week. People who, young people who have the potential to have that type of deep insight. And that, I think, is what's most fascinating. That by virtue of being a piece of hip-hop culture, they develop a way of thinking and knowing and looking at the world that can very easily be aligned to be science.
34:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So your job is to alert that teacher to take note of that if they see this evidence?
34:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, watch that, look at that, don't miss that, don't beat that out of that person. You know, because if you do, then... See, the thing about schooling as we know it oftentimes is that it just doesn't foster the creative mind. It's the Einstein story all over again, a million times over. You know, the most brilliant scientists of our time, you know, darn near flunking out. And that model continues today. And I mean, look at Jizza. And I hate to bring up a story in detail. This is a guy who you...
34:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You got 30 seconds to bring it up in detail.
34:47 Speaker 02 Brilliant, intelligent, right? Didn't get an opportunity to complete school. Why? That's not a function of his intelligence. It's a function of the inability...
34:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or his motivation.
34:54 Speaker 02 Or his motivation. It's a function of the inability for the school system to foster it.
34:58 Speaker 01 So what you're saying is our school systems are failing. I mean, I hate to sum it up like that, but...
35:05 Speaker 02 Our school system is failing, but if it focuses more explicitly on culture, there's possibilities for us to reframe it.
35:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? See, with Chuck's case, the teacher didn't beat out of him when he was cracking up in class, you see? That just stayed with him his whole life.
35:19 Speaker 01 And that, and I am highly rebellious.
35:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We gotta wrap this up, Chuck. Thanks for being again on another episode of StarTalk. As always.
35:28 Speaker 02 I love it.
35:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Neil deGrasse Tyson signing off, telling you all to keep looking up.
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