Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast StarTalk Live! Parasites and Poisons at The Bell House About this episode A strange brew of poisons, parasites and infectious diseases is on tap at The Bell House when Neil deGrasse Tyson and Eugene Mirman welcome guests Mark Siddall, the Leech Guy, and comedians H. Jon Benjamin and Jessica Williams.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.
0:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, have we got a show for you tonight. Do they know the topic?
0:28 Eugene Mirman? No, they don't know the topic.
0:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You don't know the topic? You all came not even knowing the topic?
0:32 Eugene Mirman? No.
0:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The topic is poisons, parasites, and infectious diseases.
0:41 Eugene Mirman? The enthusiasm I've come to expect.
0:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I want to bring out my special guest for this. Believe it or not, there are people in the world who are experts at this stuff. He's a colleague and friend from the American Museum of Natural History. Give me a warm Brooklyn Bell House welcome. For Mark's it up, Mark!
1:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mark curated an exhibit on poison at the American Museum of Natural History. So, I got my man, who'd you bring?
1:18 Eugene Mirman? Damn.
1:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, can you do better?
1:25 Eugene Mirman? Certainly not in the world of poison. But I will bring two comedians out. One is a bit of a father and a bit of a spy. From Bob's Burgers and Archer, H. John Besseman!
1:42 Speaker 02 Thank you.
1:45 Speaker 02 Tonight I will be playing the part of the parasite.
1:51 Speaker 03 I'm Jewish, so there you go.
1:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, by the way, just every night that we do this, we create a special drink just for that evening, themed by that topic. And so, Kim, the bartender, earlier she and I concocted a parasitic poison drink. That's what it's called. A special drink just for this evening. It did not exist before tonight.
2:16 Speaker 03 Well, you really phoned in the name of that one.
2:25 Speaker 03 You didn't even go for like parasitini or anything. Anything would have.
2:30 Eugene Mirman? All right, our final guest. She is awesome. This is so exciting that she could make it. From The Daily Show, ladies and gentlemen, Jessica Williams.
2:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Hi, guys. Hey.
2:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, let's get this party started. So, let's just clarify. So, Mark, you're curator and professor at the Sackler Institute of Comparative Genomics in the Division of Invertebrate Zoology at the American Museum of Natural History. His professional expertise is leeches. And in fact, his Twitter handle is TheLeechGuy.
3:11 Speaker 03 I am TheLeechGuy, and I can attest that Neil deGrasse Tyson could never possibly get that name because when we went in the field with Nova Science Now...
3:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, well, we profiled some of his work back when I was hosting Nova Science Now. It took me into a leech pond.
3:26 Speaker 03 And they wouldn't, they wouldn't feed on you at all?
3:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, none of the leeches. I felt unloved because they, he got out the leeches all, I had no leeches on me at all.
3:36 Speaker 03 Did I ever say, they fed here and I swelled from my knee to my ankle?
3:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's just creepy.
3:41 Speaker 03 I did this for you.
3:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, that's really creepy. How do you get dates?
3:47 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, is that what it says on your Tinder?
3:55 Speaker 03 Well, I don't need dates. I have a charming and lovely wife who actually illustrated the book I wrote.
4:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, yes, yes, yes, there's a book.
4:02 Speaker 03 It's not about leeches. We'll do a leech book next.
4:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
4:05 Speaker 03 These are the stories about poison that we couldn't put in the exhibition.
4:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So sinister species with deadly consequences.
4:12 Speaker 03 Yes, indeed. It's not an allegory for our marriage. I just want to make clear.
4:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And your wife illustrated the book.
4:19 Speaker 03 Yes, and I believe she's in the audience, aren't you, Meghan? Yeah. Over there.
4:23 Speaker 04 All right, all right.
4:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You couldn't get her a seat, apparently, okay.
4:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So let me ask you, Mark, let's just start off. Isn't it true that almost anything will kill you given a high enough dose? So how are we to know what's poison and what's just someone being stupid?
4:45 Eugene Mirman? What's the most amount of regular blood you could drink before it was like, too much?
4:50 Speaker 03 Did you say blood or alcohol? I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
4:53 Eugene Mirman? Blood.
4:53 Speaker 03 Oh.
4:54 Eugene Mirman? Poisonous blood.
4:54 Speaker 03 So poison's a funny concept. If you ate enough hammers, they'd kill you, right? Does that make hammers poisonous? No. So the way we tend to think about it has to do with whether or not they're screwing with your physiology. So salt, you all need salt or your nerves don't work, sodium chloride. All of your nerves use sodium to get their stuff done. If you eat like a cup of salt, it'll shut that down. That's poisonous. Water, well, you drink too much water, it dilutes everything. Is it really a poison if you, you know, it's not really a solid concept as to what is a poison or what is not. It has a lot to do with...
5:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Your field has yet to define poison. This is what you're telling me.
5:36 Speaker 03 I think I am. And in fact, when we were working on these ideas...
5:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? For the exhibit?
5:40 Speaker 03 Yeah.
5:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
5:41 Speaker 03 The intersection between the concept of poison and toxin and venom and so on was really a very English-language-centered kind of semantic argument, and we just gave up on it.
5:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So toxins and venom, I mean, how many movies have extracted venom from a frog or a snake, put it in a bullet and, you know, there's a lot of this...
6:03 Eugene Mirman? Seven.
6:07 Speaker 02 You know your movies. Name them.
6:11 Speaker 03 So, go, no, go ahead.
6:13 Eugene Mirman? No, I would rather be cut off.
6:17 Speaker 03 Uh, where?
6:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, oh.
6:22 Eugene Mirman? Wow. Yeah, just the very, very front.
6:25 Speaker 03 So.
6:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so, so, so poison affects you chemically, that's what you're saying?
6:30 Speaker 03 It affects you physiologically and invariably is chemically, yes.
6:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so, when I think of some poisons that are just chemicals that you might find out there, like arsenic, right?
6:41 Speaker 03 Yes, or dihydrogen oxide.
6:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You mean water?
6:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, water.
6:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You, who do you think, you're messing with it?
6:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, who do you think you're talking to?
6:53 Speaker 03 No, wait, this actually makes a point. People think things are poisonous because of their complicated names.
6:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Tell that story, you know the story about dihydrogen oxide?
6:59 Speaker 03 Oh, no, you tell.
7:00 Eugene Mirman? The story of water?
7:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.
7:04 Eugene Mirman? No, it's a good story, go on.
7:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There was, there was, there was.
7:07 Speaker 02 Some of you might want to leave.
7:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There was a kid who was sort of testing the gullibility of the public, or at least their fear of science and things that sound bad, set up a petition in the street to ban dihydrogen oxide. Because if inhaled, it creates suffocation.
7:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It is the biggest ingredient in acid rain.
7:35 Speaker 04 It sure is.
7:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you go down the list, everybody signed the petition.
7:40 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah, I would have definitely signed the hell out of that.
7:43 Speaker 03 So, this is something that we get at the museum, right, is, "What's it like living on a planet with poison gas? Because that's got to be terrible."
7:52 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, so far, I agree.
7:54 Speaker 02 So far, I love it.
7:55 Eugene Mirman? That's why I don't leave Earth.
7:57 Speaker 03 So it turns out you're living on one. One of the most destructive elements to your body is oxygen. I mean, all of the things that oxygen does to your DNA is absolutely terrible. This is a poisonous planet and we're surviving, it's amazing.
8:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So we should go in a room with no oxygen and we'll be healthier.
8:12 Eugene Mirman? Wait, what are some of the bad things?
8:14 Speaker 02 I'm just gonna go home and eat a bag of hammers and get it over with.
8:19 Speaker 05 Um, please elaborate on all the things that oxygen does to my body, because I am a hypochondriac and this is-
8:26 Speaker 03 Oh, really?
8:26 Speaker 05 A wonderful episode for me to be involved with right now.
8:29 Speaker 03 I'm right, I'm right there with you. Suffice it to say ripping your DNA apart is probably not a good thing.
8:34 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, but it's obviously takes its time.
8:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're comparing ripping your DNA apart eventually and dying within three minutes.
8:43 Speaker 03 Oh, no, there's only one thing that will kill you in three minutes.
8:46 Speaker 05 Whoa, whoa, whoa, do tell.
8:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What's that?
8:51 Speaker 03 It's not a bad joke by Jon Stewart. Whoa, whoa.
8:57 Speaker 05 I don't know, I don't care.
9:01 Speaker 03 Wait, what's the Jon Stewart joke?
9:03 Speaker 05 Yeah, what?
9:04 Speaker 03 Yeah. I'm so screwed. I'm never gonna be invited on this show.
9:08 Eugene Mirman? Is this something from Big Daddy?
9:10 Speaker 03 No.
9:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm just saying-
9:15 Speaker 03 Do we wanna dig deeper into his, uh, film career? No, no, no, go away.
9:20 Speaker 05 I actually do wanna know about-
9:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm just saying, if you complain about oxygen, if you don't have any oxygen at all, you will die sooner than whatever bad things the oxygen did to your DNA would kill you. Right? Is that a fair statement to make?
9:32 Speaker 03 Probably. So, the thing is, is that what we're doing in our own bodies is ripping electrons off of things and giving them to oxygen at the end. That's how we get energy, but that's a pretty caustic thing to be doing. And we've got enzymes and other things in our body that make that happen, and we control all of the free radicals and so on. But it doesn't mean that oxygen isn't toxic. It's wicked toxic. It's horribly toxic. There's a huge cottage industry on antioxidants. What do you think that's about?
9:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what anti- uh, anti-
10:01 Speaker 05 I never even thought about the word, but I was buying all of it.
10:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so, of all the animals out there, how many are poisonous?
10:09 Speaker 03 Ah, so poison and venom is a funny thing. So, I like to say that there's no such thing as a poisonous snake. There isn't a single snake you can't eat. You can eat a snake.
10:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, now wait.
10:20 Speaker 03 He's looking at you, man. Yeah.
10:24 Speaker 03 There are boatloads of venomous snakes, and of course, the Aussies. Are there any Australians in the audience? Oi! Oi! Oi! Oi, is that what you... Again.
10:36 Speaker 03 So Australians love to say, "Oh wow, we've got 18 of the most venomous snakes on the planet, and 12 of the most venomous spiders, and 8 of the most venomous fish, and yada, yada, yada, yada." Okay, fine. But you're really very... And 90 of the drunkest ladies.
10:57 Speaker 03 You're really unlikely, extremely unlikely to die of any of those things in Australia, because Australia has western medicine like we have, and you're probably gonna survive. The place where you're gonna die from a snake bite is where you can't get care, like Burkina Faso, from a snake that's not nearly as venomous, but you're just not gonna find care.
11:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so you're cool with venomous animals out there, just as long as you have a snake bite kit next to you. I just wanna get a sense of how dangerous it really is out there.
11:28 Speaker 03 I don't like snakes.
11:31 Eugene Mirman? How long would it take that snake to kill you?
11:33 Speaker 02 The one that you just mentioned?
11:34 Speaker 03 Which, I didn't actually mention.
11:35 Eugene Mirman? The snake that where you're somewhere and it takes a while and it's because they know western medicine?
11:39 Speaker 03 In Australia, the inland type, and there's a guy named Kevin Budden, who was...
11:44 Speaker 02 A snake?
11:45 Speaker 03 No.
11:48 Speaker 02 What, they're naming him one by one now?
11:52 Speaker 05 Ah, yeah, that's Kevin, he been my cousin.
11:54 Speaker 03 So this guy Kevin, and he's a herpetologist. It turns out that most people who die of snake bites are probably herpetologists, because they're the ones who are handling snakes.
12:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're the ones who study snakes?
12:04 Speaker 02 I'm hoping.
12:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Herpetologist?
12:06 Speaker 03 I could help you with that.
12:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They don't study herpes, they study snakes.
12:10 Speaker 05 Sick, sick job, better job.
12:12 Speaker 03 So herpes means creeping.
12:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Creeping?
12:15 Speaker 03 So, yeah.
12:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I didn't know that, cool.
12:16 Speaker 03 So we're in the same place here.
12:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Good, alright.
12:18 Speaker 03 So this guy Kevin, in the 50s, he found this inland type, and he grabbed it with his arm, and it wrapped around, and it started spitting all over him, and he couldn't hold on to it. Some guy drives up in a pickup truck and sees this guy in distress, and says, "Oh, come on, get in the cab." So he gets in the cab, and he explains that he's got this incredibly venomous snake, the most venomous snake on the planet. The guy who's driving the truck is like, "Um, can you maybe get out?" But he takes him down to the museum. Unfortunately, the snake gets away, bites Kevin Budden. The point of Kevin-
12:50 Eugene Mirman? Wait, he takes him to a museum?
12:52 Speaker 03 The Museum of Natural History. These are great places where lovely things happen. I work at one.
12:58 Eugene Mirman? I thought in the story someone was bitten by a poisonous snake-
13:01 Speaker 05 Right.
13:02 Eugene Mirman? And then taken to a museum? I get why museums are great.
13:05 Speaker 02 That's what you did back then.
13:07 Speaker 03 I'm doing a little story contraction.
13:09 Eugene Mirman? Okay.
13:10 Speaker 02 That was hard to follow, though.
13:13 Speaker 03 So unfortunately, Kevin died. He was bitten-
13:17 Eugene Mirman? That's a lot of traction!
13:19 Speaker 03 It's because they took him to a museum instead of a hospital.
13:23 Eugene Mirman? What year was this?
13:25 Speaker 03 It was in the 50s.
13:26 Speaker 05 Yeah.
13:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, they didn't know the difference between hospitals and museums.
13:33 Speaker 03 So, anyone who's been bitten by this incredibly venomous snake in Australia has Kevin to thank because that very snake was the source of antivenom, which we can create if we have a live animal. And he insisted that that animal never be killed so that it could be used to create lifesaving-
13:50 Speaker 05 I do have a question. How do they make antivenom, though, from a live animal?
13:53 Speaker 03 So that's a great story, especially as it concerns the origins of it. The United Fruit Company, which you all know as Dole.
14:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I didn't know United Fruit Company was Dole.
14:03 Speaker 05 I thought you made it up.
14:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Did anybody else? Was I the only one?
14:06 Speaker 02 It's now Dole.
14:07 Speaker 05 No.
14:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
14:09 Eugene Mirman? Great, somebody from Monsanto knew.
14:16 Speaker 02 They're everywhere.
14:17 Speaker 03 Logical progression. You clear a forest, you plant banana trees to sell bananas to people in the United States. You've got a lot of people who are working in those banana plantations. And all of a sudden, you've got a lot of rodents in there that are eating the bananas that are not being sold to Americans. So the snakes come in and start eating the rodents. But then people are working in a place with a lot of snakes, and people start dying, getting bitten, so forth. So the United Fruit Company created serpentariums in places like the Honduras. And also down in Brazil in order to find ways to create antivenoms for the workers so that if they got bit, you could save their lives.
15:13 Speaker 03 So, okay, as a leech biologist, my animal, the thing I've decided to study is a biodiversity scientist looking at leeches. They're attracted to me, so I don't have to really go looking.
15:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, that was clever.
15:24 Speaker 03 Yes.
15:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow.
15:26 Speaker 03 How hard is it to find a black hole?
15:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, we can find it, we just can't, we're not gonna bring it, we're not gonna bring it into the lab.
15:34 Speaker 03 Well, no, they'll bring us eventually.
15:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, they'll get us.
15:37 Speaker 03 It's a long wait.
15:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not what, just, I happen to know something, just, you're not the kind of leech guy who studies the leeches that lodge inside of a hippopotamus rectum, are you?
15:49 Speaker 05 Yeah, what kind of a leech guy are you?
15:53 Speaker 02 I'm actually... Are you a hardcore leech guy, or are you like, "I don't come in the rectum"?
15:59 Speaker 03 So, so, yes, I, yes, I am that leech guy.
16:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You are!
16:04 Speaker 03 Oh, wait, but I noticed that you just brought black hole and leeches into the same sentence with the hippo-rectum thing.
16:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? 'Cause that's how I roll.
16:13 Speaker 02 Just so you know, I'm that kind of hippopotamus.
16:19 Speaker 03 Have I got an undergraduate for you.
16:23 Speaker 02 Have you got a forearm for me?
16:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here's what I want to understand: there are all of these, all of these ways animals and plants can poison you or stick venom in you.
16:37 Speaker 03 Yes.
16:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Do you have a, could you give us an overview on what their poison and venom does to your body? Because there was a whole recitation in Kill Bill with, as, as, Daryl Hannah?
16:49 Speaker 05 Daryl Hannah.
16:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Daryl Hannah's sister watches the guy die, as she's thumbing through her, her Google Notes on how, so, could you give us some...
16:57 Speaker 03 Well, that was a black mamba, and black, well, she was black mamba.
17:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was her.
17:01 Speaker 03 Of course, there was a black mamba. So, snakes actually, typically with a snake, there's a cocktail. And similarly, like your cocktail, there are lots of poisons in things like snake venoms and in plants and so forth. Very rarely will you find any animal that has only one, or plant, that has only one. When I said that I love plants because they can't run away, they're defending themselves with something: nicotine, caffeine. Theobromine in cocoa, all of these things are actually insecticides.
17:34 Eugene Mirman? Meaning insects won't eat caffeine plants.
17:37 Speaker 03 They eat them and they go lie down in a hammock and go, "I need more." Or that's self-defense, right? That's the way that...
17:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so the ingredients that resist insects, we find other uses for them.
17:49 Speaker 03 Absolutely. Cinnamon, vanilla, all of those things are insecticides.
17:53 Eugene Mirman? They're delicious.
17:56 Speaker 03 Which means you're not an insect. Which means you're not an insect.
18:00 Eugene Mirman? Yeah.
18:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's evidence.
18:01 Eugene Mirman? That's how you can tell. That's the test I do.
18:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the evidence, yeah.
18:03 Eugene Mirman? I'll give someone vanilla and if they eat it, I'm like, "Not an insect." "Would you like to get dinner sometime?"
18:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, alright, so I get it. So that's fascinating to me, that there are chemicals out there that the plant uses to protect itself, yet it doesn't work when humans come in because we... they're recreational drugs for us, right?
18:28 Speaker 03 Well, it sometimes does work, in the sense that things in the belladonna family, for example, belladonna...
18:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a famous group of food.
18:38 Speaker 03 Sure.
18:42 Eugene Mirman? A family of porn stars.
18:51 Speaker 03 Which is flying ornaments, where basically plants ground up and smeared on the skin. Now, it's a very bad idea to do this. We have this thing that we call a therapeutic index, which is the difference between the effective dose and the lethal dose. And you really want those to be very, very, very far apart. Because if the effective dose is very close to the lethal dose, then you could overdose very easily and...
19:19 Speaker 05 That's death.
19:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just making sure you're with us.
19:25 Speaker 05 Oh, I got you. I got you. I'm not with you for a lot of it, but I am with you with death.
19:29 Eugene Mirman? It's why people warn you about heroin.
19:32 Speaker 03 Heroin, very good example. And by the way.
19:35 Eugene Mirman? Yes?
19:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait, give the example. Don't buy it away yet. Give me the, what are you saying?
19:41 Speaker 03 Mushrooms.
19:42 Eugene Mirman? Yeah?
19:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah?
19:43 Speaker 03 Psilocybin.
19:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait, confirm what I've just learned.
19:47 Eugene Mirman? Wrap it up, Burning Man.
19:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I just learned, this year, I learned, please confirm for me, that humans or mushrooms are more genetically alike than either humans or mushrooms are to green plants.
20:00 Speaker 03 Oh, clearly, yeah, of course. Their sperm is the same.
20:04 Eugene Mirman? Wait, wait.
20:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, I didn't, I didn't get that.
20:05 Speaker 05 Let's go back, let's go back.
20:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I didn't get that far in the similarity. We have.
20:09 Speaker 03 But without, that's the evidence, their sperm is the same. You didn't want to go there, did you?
20:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, I didn't know that that was a place to go.
20:14 Speaker 05 Wait, what did you say?
20:15 Eugene Mirman? Yeah.
20:16 Speaker 05 What about the sperm? What part of it, what did you say about it?
20:18 Speaker 03 Yeah, sure.
20:19 Eugene Mirman? Wait, I've been following nothing, and then that?
20:25 Speaker 03 It's just science.
20:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
20:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, wait, so you gotta bail us out of this one.
20:30 Speaker 03 Okay.
20:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I just said we're related. You're talking about sperm.
20:33 Speaker 03 Okay, they're not exactly the same, but they look the same. So mushrooms, let's go back to psilocybin, I think we're safe for this.
20:39 Speaker 05 Please, okay.
20:40 Eugene Mirman? Just for that guy.
20:41 Speaker 03 So, which of you three have ever done, uh, no, I'm not gonna ask you that. Unless you want to answer.
20:47 Eugene Mirman? Altogether, or just?
20:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
20:50 Eugene Mirman? Do you want three people to go like when I was 19?
20:54 Speaker 03 So, psilocybin, the effective dose, the dose to get whatever effect that you might possibly want, is measured in femtograms. Now, you're the astrophysicist, how, how many zeros?
21:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a metric prefix of a very small number.
21:10 Speaker 03 Right.
21:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So femto, so we have, uh, I don't know, femto, that might be 10 to the minus 15? Or 10 to the minus 12?
21:18 Speaker 03 So it's like 14 zeros and then a something?
21:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, minus 12, so it'll be like.
21:22 Eugene Mirman? And you don't want us to switch to ounces right now?
21:28 Eugene Mirman? You wanna figure out the femtogram?
21:30 Speaker 03 Do you want the smiley face, or do you want the rainbow?
21:33 Eugene Mirman? Please don't draw on my food.
21:36 Speaker 03 So it's measured in femt-
21:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, just to be clear, so nano, as in sort of nanotechnology, that's one billionth of a thing.
21:44 Speaker 03 And I think femto's like a millionth of that?
21:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, I think so, yeah, no, a thousandth of that, so you have nano femto, oh, it's a pico, thank you.
21:52 Speaker 03 Oh, pico, oh, right, yeah.
21:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I think it's nano pico femto ato.
21:56 Speaker 03 Can we agree that it's a very small number?
21:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, yeah, go.
21:58 Speaker 03 That's what I was asking, I couldn't tell.
22:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm good.
22:00 Eugene Mirman? Whatever this number is, it sounds like I took too much.
22:05 Speaker 03 So therapeutic, therapeutic index, therapeutic index is the ratio of what is effective for what you want, and what is lethal. The lethal dose of magic mushrooms is 15 pounds.
22:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Really?
22:21 Speaker 03 You have to eat 15, can you even-
22:24 Eugene Mirman? I was close.
22:25 Speaker 03 15 pounds?
22:27 Eugene Mirman? I feel like, I was like, but... 15 pounds would be, I mean, uh-
22:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's a mound, mushrooms are mostly air.
22:36 Speaker 03 I'm thinking you're walking in front of a bus before that.
22:39 Eugene Mirman? Yeah.
22:41 Speaker 03 And after.
22:42 Eugene Mirman? So if any, yeah, if you're listening, they're safe.
22:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, wait, just, just-
22:55 Speaker 03 This message is not endorsed by the American Museum of Natural History.
22:59 Eugene Mirman? Just by those who work there.
23:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So-
23:03 Eugene Mirman? And where in the back I get my mushrooms.
23:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, some of these things people do recreationally, but other things we come next to and snuggle with, knowing it'll kill us. Like in Japan, they have the pufferfish, what do they call it?
23:17 Speaker 03 The fugu.
23:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Fugu. People eat that, and that'll kill you, yet they eat it.
23:24 Speaker 03 Sure.
23:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Why?
23:26 Speaker 03 I don't know, it's tasteless. Really, it's terr- I mean, look, okay. So, and I think they eat it because of the, the, the risk of, of dying like a Kabuki actor. What was his name? Do you remember? There was a Kabuki actor.
23:41 Eugene Mirman? Marcel Marceau?
23:41 Speaker 05 I don't have any of that here.
23:43 Speaker 02 My total recall for Kabuki actors is...
23:47 Speaker 03 I brought some poison. Would you like some?
23:50 Eugene Mirman? That's a book. Or is it poison inside it?
23:53 Speaker 02 No, that's a really bad-
23:54 Eugene Mirman? Is it like one of those things where you hide pot in a book?
23:56 Speaker 02 It's a really unfortunate way to hide poison.
23:58 Eugene Mirman? It really is poison.
23:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait, wait, this is-
24:00 Speaker 02 That is poison.
24:01 Eugene Mirman? Oh, that is a bunch of poison. Sorry, that's not a book. You really brought poison.
24:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You walk around with this?
24:07 Eugene Mirman? But it's like one of them's salt? And peppers, or those, is that poison?
24:11 Speaker 03 Well, here, if you'll, if you'll allow me-
24:12 Speaker 05 Can you clarify this for everyone really quickly?
24:15 Speaker 02 Barnes and Noble was fooled entirely by this.
24:20 Speaker 03 Security at the Bell House was fooled entirely. So, uh, just a couple of things. Would you pass that to the gentleman on your right?
24:27 Speaker 02 Uh, okay.
24:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mark is now passing around poisons among the panel.
24:31 Speaker 03 Passing cinnamon bark.
24:32 Speaker 02 Do I have to wash my hands, or?
24:34 Speaker 03 Well, if you don't like the smell of cinnamon.
24:36 Eugene Mirman? Cinnamon, he's right.
24:38 Speaker 03 Like, as we said earlier, a lot, a lot of the things-
24:40 Speaker 02 Just eat all that now, quickly, and it'll be over soon.
24:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yuji, why are you licking something out of a box called poison?
24:49 Speaker 02 Poison. Well, you are really-
24:51 Eugene Mirman? Because, first of all, I trust him. Second of all, it tastes like cinnamon.
24:56 Speaker 03 Thirdly, you shouldn't trust me. Here's some curare.
24:59 Eugene Mirman? What's that?
25:00 Speaker 03 Ah, don't lick it, I think is-
25:02 Speaker 02 Jesus, I don't want to touch anything you give me.
25:04 Eugene Mirman? It was really when you said cinnamon bark that I stopped being scared. But when you said the other word, I am a little scared.
25:08 Speaker 03 But it does, it does raise a really good point, is that, you know, plants can't run away, so they're producing things to protect themselves from insects, or, or herbivores. And we, being thoughtful, thinking, uh, human beings, most of the time, have figured out how to leverage these things for our benefit. Sometimes, for example, for hunting, sometimes for medical purposes.
25:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Hunting as in tips of arrows that would-
25:29 Speaker 03 Sure, yeah, there's a, there's a bug, uh, I shouldn't call it a bug, it's a beetle larvum, bug. That the San in South Africa would grind up and put on arrows in order to take down big mammals. It turns out, that whole mythology of elephants chewing on marula fruit and getting high, and getting a little bit drunk, there's not enough alcohol in marula fruit to make them drunk. They're getting high off of the toxin from the beetles in the marula tree. Which is the same one the San were using for like, killing things. Because an elephant's a big animal.
25:58 Eugene Mirman? So elephants can get drunk off of beetles? Beetle juice. Yeah.
26:06 Speaker 03 Say that three times.
26:09 Speaker 03 What's in your? Alcohol. Number one cause of poisoning in the world.
26:15 Eugene Mirman? Alcohol?
26:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just to clarify, what you're saying is, what we call poison is, in some senses, biologically arbitrary, because it's the thing that'll kill us at a particular dose, but other doses could be just fine, be recreational, and we'll have fun, and medicinal, and all the rest. So for everything we ingest, we gotta measure where it kills us, then we call it a poison.
26:37 Speaker 03 So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna pull a Neil deGrasse Tyson on you.
26:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Anytime.
26:42 Speaker 03 It's not, it's not biologically arbitrary, it's actually biologically measurable. We can actually measure the-
26:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I didn't, I really didn't mean arbitrary, I meant, it was, you don't know in advance-
26:51 Speaker 03 Dude, you use the word.
26:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? -that something is poison, until it kills you, and then you back off from that a few notches. Oh, and then you say it's recreational.
26:58 Speaker 03 No, it's actually worse than that. So, the, the way this is measured is LD-50, lethal dose 50. What that means is that you've got at least 100 things, and you've killed 50 of them with some dose, and then you know what the, so yeah, it's bad.
27:11 Eugene Mirman? Say that again, but quicker.
27:13 Speaker 03 No.
27:15 Speaker 03 LD-50, lethal dose 50, you actually have to have like 100 mice, and at what dose do half of them die?
27:21 Eugene Mirman? Oh, nice.
27:24 Speaker 03 What's nice is that we don't do it with comedians, we do it with mice.
27:28 Eugene Mirman? Yeah. It's, it would I imagine be illegal.
27:31 Speaker 03 Well, my guess is it takes, it usually takes a higher dose for comedians.
27:35 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, yeah.
27:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, we're gonna wrap this segment, let me, so, just for the wrap-up, tell us what your favorite poison is. And you can buy whatever metric you choose. Your fa- because you're the man, who's the poison man, so you're gonna, tell us all, what's your favorite poison?
27:51 Speaker 03 It's like asking, what's your favorite child?
27:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'm sure it's exactly like that, yeah.
27:57 Speaker 03 A true psychopath. Okay, I gotta say, it's probably tetradotoxin, which is the poison in the pufferfish that you were talking about. It's a poison that acts on neurons, but what's amazing about it is it does not affect your heart. So you get to stay alive as you're dying.
28:17 Eugene Mirman? Oh, it's like real torture.
28:18 Speaker 03 It's tr- it's total, total-
28:20 Eugene Mirman? Does it hurt, or is it just upsetting?
28:25 Speaker 03 Actually, you don't feel much pain. You don't feel anything. But your brain's working and your heart's working and you're zombified.
28:34 Speaker 02 Well, so your brain is working differently then, right?
28:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait. So what you're saying is...
28:39 Speaker 02 How do you know what you're...
28:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You have an awareness...
28:42 Speaker 03 Yes.
28:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? ...of your death and there's nothing you can do about it.
28:45 Speaker 03 Well...
28:45 Speaker 02 Was it like the diving bell on the butterfly?
28:47 Speaker 03 No, no, no.
28:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You have an awareness...
28:49 Speaker 05 Like Kiss at a Dragon, did you see that?
28:50 Speaker 03 You have awareness of all of the people around you.
28:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And I missed that one. I'm sorry.
28:54 Speaker 05 That was a great one. That's a Jet Li. It's classic.
28:56 Speaker 03 Did I screw that up?
28:57 Eugene Mirman? Oh, yeah. With the pin and he puts it in the guy, the French policeman. Yeah, yeah.
29:01 Speaker 05 It's sick. It's sick.
29:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
29:04 Speaker 03 You have an awareness of all the people saving your life. Because you actually get to see them, you get to hear them, whatever. But tetralotoxin's kind of interesting because we know it from pufferfish, we know it from blue-ringed octopus, we know it from the rough-skinned newt in Oregon, and we only know that because some guy decided to eat his own pet in a bar.
29:23 Speaker 03 People shouldn't eat their pets. It's a bad idea because they're probably toxic.
29:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's why you shouldn't eat your pet. Because it might be toxic. Yeah, okay. That's...
29:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, does every animal out there have some parasite that just loves sucking its body fluids?
30:01 Speaker 03 Well, given that most of the animals out there are parasites, because every animal that's not a parasite has about five to a hundred, parasitism is the most successful strategy for animals all over the place. Way more than 60% of all animals are parasites.
30:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What are we?
30:20 Speaker 02 Parasites.
30:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right? Okay, so... According to the major. So, what you're saying is, it's easier, evolutionarily speaking, to figure out how to live off the nutrients derived from the fluids of another creature than to...
30:40 Speaker 04 Get a job.
30:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Get a job. Yeah.
30:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what you're saying.
30:48 Speaker 03 Part of the problem is, is that we consider things like tapeworms to be parasites, we consider malaria to be...
30:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Consider tapeworms to be parasites?
30:56 Speaker 04 We sound real judgy.
31:00 Speaker 03 We consider tapeworms to be parasites, malaria to be parasites. And they don't physiologically do the same thing. And yet we call them parasites. So this is really just a semantic argument about what is a parasite in certain respects. Uh, there's a, there's a textbook written by, uh, a friend of mine, John, John Janaby Jr. And if you look in the glossary under...
31:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, really, that's his name. It's not like you made up that name. I'm just saying.
31:27 Speaker 02 Definitely struggle through it.
31:30 Speaker 02 Uh, John, John, John, Jeremy, Jr. Uh, last name Junior.
31:38 Speaker 02 Senior.
31:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Junior, Junior.
31:42 Speaker 03 You know, he's gonna listen to this.
31:45 Speaker 04 And he's gonna know that he's loved.
31:46 Speaker 02 He doesn't exist.
31:51 Speaker 02 Enough with the sham already.
31:54 Speaker 02 You have no friends.
31:59 Speaker 02 Oh, come on.
32:01 Speaker 02 I don't mean that.
32:02 Speaker 03 I'm okay.
32:02 Speaker 02 I'm your friend.
32:04 Speaker 03 So, the definition of parasite is the raison d'etre of parasitologist. And if you go to the glossary under parasitologist, it's a quaint old fool who sits on one stool while looking at another.
32:16 Speaker 05 Um, hey, but seriously though, this is all great, but how many parasites do humans have?
32:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, I'd like to know that.
32:22 Speaker 05 What do I have? What parasites do we have at any given time? Uh, none of them.
32:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Does she have any parasites on her right now?
32:31 Speaker 03 Well, sure, she's got Demodex filicularum probably up in her eyelashes.
32:35 Speaker 05 Great, good night, good night, great, good night. Bye, good night.
32:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Which one of these classes of sort of organisms, what shows up a lot, like when we read about worms? Like nematodes and things?
32:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, how many of them are worms in our body?
32:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, how many worms do we have?
32:53 Speaker 03 You might actually leave. Okay. Shall we just go with New York?
32:58 Speaker 05 Yes, yeah.
32:59 Eugene Mirman? Sure.
33:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, okay.
33:01 Eugene Mirman? What do you mean, there's like a lot, like Boston's like, ooh, you don't want to hear about that? They have all their Cambridge worms.
33:10 Speaker 03 Everybody out there who had an itchy butt when they were a kid, raise your hand, okay?
33:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You.
33:18 Speaker 03 All of you who are lying, raise your hand. So, pinworms, pinworms. What about now?
33:32 Speaker 03 Like, right now? Yeah, so, pinworms.
33:38 Speaker 03 Pinworms are a very common nematode in the, even in the developed world, the females lay their eggs in the... In your butt? Cause intense itching, and it's actually adaptive for the organism because, because it's itchy, you scratch, and that lofts the very lightweight eggs into the air, and everybody around gets infected. It's incredibly wonderful way to transmit.
34:00 Speaker 05 Sick.
34:01 Speaker 03 Don't, ah, because you all got it!
34:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, what's the third creepiest parasite?
34:05 Speaker 03 No person is an island unto themselves.
34:08 Eugene Mirman? But, no.
34:09 Speaker 03 And you're never alone if you're parasitized.
34:12 Eugene Mirman? But, how many, do I have like?
34:13 Speaker 03 They're your real friends.
34:14 Eugene Mirman? Like, 10,000 parasites?
34:18 Eugene Mirman? But are there like 10,000 parasites, or are there like 85?
34:21 Speaker 03 You talking about number of individual parasites?
34:23 Eugene Mirman? Species, yeah.
34:25 Speaker 03 Oh, so we're hosts to somewhere in the hundreds to low thousand kinda range that are... No, these are just things that are strictly things that are only in humans, they're not in any other animal.
34:36 Eugene Mirman? Sure.
34:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, I feel better.
34:38 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, I was like, I don't have to share my parasites with cats.
34:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, this is great. Wait, so these are living organisms?
34:44 Speaker 03 We're their universe.
34:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And we are the... They thrive within us.
34:50 Speaker 03 Only us. Unless they're getting between us. Then they're kind of not with us.
34:55 Eugene Mirman? But do we need them too? Please say yes.
34:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great question.
34:59 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, maybe they clean our hair and give us mustaches.
35:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How many?
35:05 Eugene Mirman? I don't know how anything works.
35:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How many do we have a symbiotic relationship with?
35:11 Speaker 03 Well, the good news is the word symbiosis just means living together, and that includes parasitism. So you're thinking of commensalism, or mutual...
35:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, that's what I meant.
35:21 Eugene Mirman? Whoa.
35:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I was testing you on that one. Yes.
35:24 Speaker 03 So, I'm sorry.
35:25 Eugene Mirman? So how many?
35:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Was there a question?
35:27 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, yeah, the question was sort of how many things live what we used to call symbiotic, but I forget the new word.
35:33 Eugene Mirman? Uh, on me and us.
35:35 Speaker 03 Stuff that'll screw you up kinda thing?
35:37 Eugene Mirman? No, something that's like, hey, thank God it's there, cuz it'll eat all your rice.
35:40 Speaker 03 So what we do know...
35:41 Eugene Mirman? That's inside you that's... I don't know, but you get it.
35:44 Speaker 05 The extra rice that you will not eat.
35:46 Eugene Mirman? Yeah, exactly, that I just keep on my torso.
35:49 Speaker 03 We do know that your immune response is educated by some of the things you might get when you're young, including parasites. We do understand that some allergic related things, some asthma, not all asthma, is correlated with environments where you don't get exposed to parasites when you're younger. We also know that for some people with things like Crohn's, and a few other immunologically related diseases, you can actually give them parasites and it makes them better.
36:19 Eugene Mirman? It makes the disease, it makes you better.
36:21 Speaker 02 One woman loves Crohn's.
36:23 Speaker 03 It makes you feel better.
36:24 Eugene Mirman? It makes you feel better.
36:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, when you're young, exposure to some classes of parasites,
36:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? help out your immune system for later, so that you become stronger, more resistant.
36:37 Speaker 03 We think.
36:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
36:38 Speaker 03 It's hard to do controlled studies on humans.
36:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, completely.
36:41 Eugene Mirman? Not for me.
36:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:44 Speaker 02 You have a big basement.
36:49 Eugene Mirman? An unstoppable addict.
36:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, how about malaria?
36:51 Speaker 03 Uh, no, we're screwed.
36:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How many people die, malaria, I mean, what's up with that?
36:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What can fix that?
37:00 Speaker 03 Malaria is theoretically eradicable, because only humans get it. Ebola, Ebola's like, you're, just forget it. You can't eradicate Ebola, because it's in, it's in all the bushmeat that people eat, and then get Ebola by eating bushmeat, so don't eat bushmeat, or you'll get Ebola, and kill a hundred thousand people.
37:19 Speaker 02 Bushmeat, what is exactly bushmeat?
37:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, I thought I was going-
37:23 Speaker 02 It's like a low-grade-
37:25 Eugene Mirman? I mean, what do you mean?
37:26 Speaker 02 It's like a low-grade ground beef. Get it, some of your major chains.
37:30 Eugene Mirman? Yeah.
37:33 Speaker 02 Well, you're saying you can eradicate Ebola, then? Because like you can eradicate the-
37:37 Speaker 03 We're like incidental hosts for Ebola.
37:39 Eugene Mirman? Like it's in possums in the forest?
37:41 Speaker 03 It's actually, uh, we now know it's in, uh, fruit bats. Mostly fruit bats, yeah.
37:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you're saying we would have to vaccinate fruit bats, as well as ourselves, in order to get rid of Ebola?
37:51 Speaker 03 You would have to either eat all the fruit bats, or eat all the humans, and-
37:55 Speaker 02 And all get Ebola.
37:57 Eugene Mirman? You would have to not eat all the fruit bats, murder them.
38:00 Speaker 03 Right. So malaria, malaria's different. Malaria's, the malaria species that infect us only infect us, and so theoretically, we can get rid of it, but we got 200 million people who die of malaria. That's, two, so 200 million people, big number, right?
38:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, wait.
38:16 Eugene Mirman? Yes.
38:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? For that to be right, there has to be a time muted in there, so-
38:22 Speaker 03 You want to time you in it?
38:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? 200 mil, like, per-
38:25 Speaker 03 How about this?
38:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
38:27 Speaker 03 7:47 jet crashing every minute and a half, and it's all full of children. That's malaria.
38:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh. Okay, comedians, work with that.
38:40 Eugene Mirman? Is there any way to get them to be teenagers?
38:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So Mark, so, so, so... If an actual 747 crashed every 90 seconds in one day ever, no one would travel and they'd ground all airplanes for the rest of the universe.
39:08 Speaker 03 Right.
39:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yet, this is going on with the malaria, and what are we doing about it?
39:14 Speaker 03 Well, there are a lot of people doing a lot of things, and in fact, what's interesting in...
39:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And can you only get it from a mosquito?
39:21 Speaker 03 You get it from another human, and it's transmitted by a mosquito. So, what's interesting is that it exists in places where people are infected, and then other people get infected. So mosquitoes are not the cause, they're the vector.
39:33 Eugene Mirman? So, what does that mean? Meaning, can you get it from a person and a mosquito, or...?
39:38 Speaker 03 No, the mosquito will bring it from one person to another, but if you, if you, if you actually cure someone...
39:42 Eugene Mirman? It's like a terrible train.
39:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, oh, I see.
39:46 Eugene Mirman? I'm not flying or taking the train, no.
39:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, you, you catch malaria from another person because the mosquito got it from the other person and brought it to you?
39:55 Speaker 03 Absolutely.
39:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whoa. Okay, so, so malaria, we associate with the tropics. By the way, there was a hu... you must know this, back at the turn of the previous century, there was a big exhibit on malaria and mosquitoes, brought about by all the effort to make the Panama Canal. And we have that huge model, that's, I don't think it's on display, of this mosquito, it's like this big.
40:15 Speaker 03 Here's the funny thing, is, in our, in our museum, we, we've got a mosquito on display that's called a...
40:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's this big?
40:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, it's a mos... malaria mosquito, it's a male, and the males don't feed on blood.
40:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Idiots.
40:28 Eugene Mirman? I knew that museum was wrong.
40:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, okay, so I never knew, so, I didn't know that, so...
40:35 Speaker 03 I mean, that's not as bad as The Daily Show having the planet go in the wrong way, but... Oh!
40:39 Eugene Mirman? Come on! It is literally worse. They're a comedy show, and you're a science museum.
40:52 Eugene Mirman? But both can be corrected with money.
Previous Extended Classic: “Are You Out of Your Mind?” with Oliver Sacks Next A Conversation with Edward Snowden (Part 1) Page updated September 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated