StarTalk All-Stars Season 2 Time Capsule

Discover some of the best moments from Season 2 of StarTalk All-Stars featuring Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Chuck Nice, Carolyn Porco, Mike Massimino, Eugene Mirman, Heather Berlin, Seth Shostak, Maeve Higgins, and others discussing Mars, climate change, consciousness, Voyager 1, and more. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/startalk-all-stars-season-2-time-capsule/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk All-Stars. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I also serve as the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History. This year, we launched this brand-new series to expand the reach of science and comedy through some of the world's best science communicators. Yeah, we found them, and we're giving them to you. And this week, with our special time capsule episode, we wrap up the first season and tip our hats to those hosts and guests who helped bring science down to earth. We sent out a survey to all our fans, and you came back to us with your favorite hosts, guests, and episodes. It's no surprise that your number-one favorite all-star is StarTalk regular Bill Nye the

• 1:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Science Guy. He's been helping us out on StarTalk from its very beginning, and this year, he kicked off StarTalk All-Stars with an episode about, what else? Climate change. Co-host Chuck Nice and director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies chatted with him about the state of our climate in your number-one favorite episode. Check it out.

• 1:30Chuck Nice?

  Paul Bunyan wants to know this, and this is he is @matthewbirch. "With the rising ocean levels due to polar melt, how soon before the Hudson River becomes the Gulf of the Hudson?" And, and let me just add an addendum, you know, to the, "How soon will this have a verifiable and measurable effect on our coastal regions? Because when you look at all of the world, most people..."

• 1:59Bill Nye?

  Live on the coast of wherever.

• 2:00Speaker 03

  That's right. So, so already, already we're seeing uh um the number of coastal flooding days is increasing all up and down the east coast from Miami to Newport to uh to Boston. Uh the uh storm surges that we're seeing when you have a storm, where wherever the storm is, it's it it has more damage because the sea level was risen about a foot in the last uh hundred years and it's increasing faster now than perhaps any time in the last three thousand years. And that's because of polar melts, it's because the water itself is getting warmer and so it's expanding. Uh and that's it's happening right now.

• 2:38Bill Nye?

  So the they have an expression in Florida nuisance flooding. Nuisance flooding. Nuisance flooding. Now, everybody, when you think of floods, you might get into some biblical thing where everybody's underwater in an enormous uh hundreds of feet underwater, a hundred meters underwater. Uh but the nuisance flooding, which uh uh is uh inducing insurance companies not to provide insurance to where you park your car. Ah. Because salt water is getting in your wheel wells. It's just a a few centimeters, a few inches deep. But if you put a few inches of water on the floor of your house, you ruin almost everything. Gotcha. You ruin the stove, you ruin all your furniture, you ruin your carpets, you ruin

• 3:19Bill Nye?

  your bedding, you ruin everything. And so this expression nuisance is kind of shorthand for. You're not in good hands, you're on your own. Yeah, yeah. And so I I said to um this guy, Mr. Hill, who's a legislator in Florida, I uh I said, what are you gonna do? He he represents Pensacola, Florida, and they have nuisance flooding continually. I said, what are you gonna do? And everybody moves, you know, or they're gonna move, he says, they're gonna, or where are they gonna move to? How are they gonna displace themselves? If you're a middle income or lower income person, how do you pick up everything? And where do you go to get a job and so on? And that's in the US, which is uh civilization. Wait till you're in the developing world where you just don't have resources. Jeez, God.

• 4:04Chuck Nice?

  Man.

• 4:05Bill Nye?

  Let's get to, let's, let's raise awareness Chuck, read another query.

• 4:08Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna raise awareness, I'm gonna, god, this is, this is really serious stuff.

• 4:13Bill Nye?

  Well, man, yeah, yeah.

• 4:14Chuck Nice?

  Uh, this is from Benjamin, who is at Benod3 on Twitter. Uh, Gavin said, "I wasn't giving Twitter any love, so let's go to Twitter." Uh, here's what he says. "People emphasize negative aspects of, uh, climate change, but are there any foreseeable positives?" Hmm.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Well, so let me, let me give you one.

• 4:35Chuck Nice?

  Please.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Um, so, so I'm English, and, uh...

• 4:39Bill Nye?

  Do you know, uh...

• 4:40Speaker 03

  I do, yes, yes, yes, we're, we're, we hang out all the time at the palace. Uh, uh, and, uh, and for many years, many years, uh, you know, there was, there was such a thing as, as English wine, and there was an old joke in, in Victorian...

• 4:55Bill Nye?

  English wine?

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Yes, in the Victorian, uh, period, that it would take four people to drink English wine. One to drink the wine, two people to hold the person down, and another person to pour it into their throat.

• 5:06Chuck Nice?

  Pretty funny.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  Ah, very troubling. Yes, okay, but now, it turns out that there are more vineyards in, uh, in England than there have ever been in history. And in fact, that the, uh...

• 5:16Bill Nye?

  When you say history, you're talking about over five hundred years, a thousand years.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Thousands of years, yes.

• 5:20Bill Nye?

  Thousand...

• 5:20Speaker 03

  We have, we have records of vineyards in England going back to the doomsday book, uh, uh, over a thousand years ago. Um, but there's more now, and the wine they're producing in blind tastings against champagne actually wins. So, so wine quality in, in England, uh, is actually now on a par with the best that the French can produce.

• 5:42Bill Nye?

  Why, they're gonna, the French people are gonna be unglued about that.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  I, um, absolutely, so I, so, so in fact, uh, the, the champagne companies are buying up, uh, swaths of, uh, what are called the South Downs in, in the UK, because they know that, that the temperatures in champagne are now at the limit. So if it gets much warmer in champagne region, uh, they won't be able to make as good champagne there, and they're thinking about moving their production to the UK. So they... That will be a foreseeable benefit for English wine drinkers.

• 6:10Bill Nye?

  The UK is a little cooler.

• 6:11Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, it's a little bit further north, but it's very similar soils, very similar terroir. Uh, and, uh, now it's, uh, it's, it's actually happening.

• 6:20Chuck Nice?

  So there's your answer Benjamin, uh, the positive will be you get to piss off French winemakers.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  No, we're not gonna see any more ice ages. Uh, the next one would have been due uh in about thirty thousand or maybe ha- maybe fifty thousand years. Um.

• 6:36Chuck Nice?

  Sorry, I'm gonna miss it.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, you are, you are gonna miss it, but it's, it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen because the, the timescale for the carbon that we put into the system is hundreds of thousands of years. And so, no more ice ages.

• 6:48Chuck Nice?

  No more ice ages.

• 6:49Bill Nye?

  That is really a striking thing, everybody, no more ice ages.

• 6:52Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 6:52Bill Nye?

  Cause we, we make hilarious jokes about the ice ages. I went to school in the Finger Lakes, which were carved by uh glaciers, coming south. It's not gonna happen anymore. Those were the days. Are the glaciers, all the glaciers we know, gonna go away?

• 7:08Speaker 03

  So, almost all the mountain glaciers uh that we know are receding, uh some of them quite dramatically. Uh, the only part of the planet where ice is pretty stable is East Antarctica, which is the, the biggest chunk of ice. And that's very cold, very stable. Uh, and so that's the part that's uh, that's gonna stick around the longest. Uh, but the other bits, the ice on the uh Antarctic Peninsula, Greenland is losing mass at about two hundred and fifty gigatons of uh, of water a year. Um, the, the West Antarctic ice sheet is losing mass.

• 7:39Bill Nye?

  So, everybody, if you wanna see Glacier National Park, Forest Mudslide National Park, get going.

• 7:45Chuck Nice?

  So, can we have uh three, just major points of a, three major talking points? Three tips that we can put out to kind of silence the climate denying arguments?

• 8:03Bill Nye?

  Well, my big thing is why, do you really think that your intuition about weather and about your whole life is more accurate at predicting the future than the world's climate scientists? And then to follow that up with, do you think the world's climate scientists are in a conspiracy? Gavin, are you in a conspiracy, right? You guys text each other?

• 8:24Speaker 03

  Yes, well, we, we, we get, we get signals from the vegetarian overlords.

• 8:28Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:28Bill Nye?

  Oh, really?

• 8:29Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 8:30Chuck Nice?

  When he says texts, I was thinking, you know, [BLEEP] pics, but I'm sorry.

• 8:34Bill Nye?

  Oh.

• 8:34Chuck Nice?

  Oh, sorry.

• 8:37Bill Nye?

  Our talk is a entertainment show.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  That escalated quickly.

• 8:41Bill Nye?

  You know what I can listen to? I'm hanging with Brett Favre, what can I say? Wow. It's unexpected. But are there three tips? Gavin, you got any ideas?

• 8:51Speaker 03

  Look at the evidence. The planet is warming.

• 8:53Bill Nye?

  One.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  We understand why.

• 8:56Bill Nye?

  Two.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  We're not stopping our emissions, so it's gonna get worse.

• 9:00Bill Nye?

  There you go. It's that simple. So, uh, the whole thing is there's huge economic opportunities, I always say. If we didn't need to buy oil from the other side of the world, we had energy independence, it would free up all these resources here to do extraordinary things. And just think, if the United States or Britain could export this new technology, we could change the world!

• 9:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Next up, former NASA astronaut Mike Massimino. Previously, you've heard him as my expert guest, but now he hosts the episode, Putting Humans on Mars, with co-host Maeve Higgins and science guest John Charles, the chief scientist at NASA's Human Research Program. You didn't know they had a human research program, did you? Mike went to space not once, but twice. And he helped fix my Hubble Space Telescope. So, yeah, he's kinda badass. And apparently, you all agreed. You voted for Mike as one of your favorite StarTalk radio science guests, and you love him still, maybe even more, as a StarTalk All-Star. Check it out.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Our goal is to keep people in sufficient condition that they can work as hard as they've ever worked in their entire lives, because it's gonna be required on the Mars mission to justify the truly tremendous expense and the multinational effort to get there. So, our, our goal is not for you to get there to, to stumble down the ladder and plant a flag and then, you know, scuffle a little dust with your boots and get back in the rocket and blast off. Our goal is for you to be on Mars for up to 18 months, working very, very hard, finding whether there's life on Mars, whether there ever was life on Mars, understanding Mars as a planet, and essentially justifying the expense of the mission. That's, that's the challenge.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  So how long would the mission be altogether?

• 10:46Speaker 04

  Altogether, it's going to be thirty months, according to NASA's Design Reference Mission. And bear in mind that this is not yet an approved program. These are study parameters. But we expect a mission to Mars will be on the order of two and a half years. Thirty months long with about a six-month or so transit there, which just coincidentally looks like a space station duration. Eighteen months on the planet. Talk about your layovers at Dallas-Fort Worth Airport. This is an eighteen-month layover on Mars. And then a six- or seven-month transit back to Earth. A total of two and a half years.

• 11:17Mike Massimino?

  John, this thirty months that it's going to take to get there, you explained six, six to go, eighteen there, six back. There's only certain times we can go, or it could be even longer than that. But that's, why are we looking at that, those lengths of time? And why aren't they not longer or shorter?

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Well, that's sort of the minimum, minimum-inclusive mission. It's the transit from Earth to Mars is dictated by orbital mechanics. And Earth and Mars have to be in the right position for the trajectory to get from one to the other. You'd hate to show up at Mars's orbit and Mars not be there. So there's only a certain number of times, you know, in the Earth year and the Mars year, when they're in the right positions with each other. And you can either...

• 11:58Speaker 05

  That would be so awkward if you showed up to Mars and Mars was not there.

• 12:01Mike Massimino?

  It would be disappointing.

• 12:02Speaker 05

  It would be like the worst barbecue ever.

• 12:04Speaker 04

  It'd be difficult to explain to Congress and your mom. But, you know, then you can either swing by Mars or just stay for maybe thirty days at the most and then come back to Earth. But the launch window for that return is rapidly closing by the time you get there. And if you do execute that, that quick return, you have to swing back through the inner solar system as close to the sun as Venus, which brings in problems with radiation exposure and heating and stuff like that. And still takes a long time to get back to Earth. So there's, there's really, if you think about it, there's really not a convenient way to take a short trip to Mars. The shortest trip to Mars is going to be on the order of five hundred days. And that's just a flyby, a swing past, and then come straight back to Earth. And if it's going to justify, like I say, the expense of getting there,

• 12:47Speaker 04

  you may as well spend enough time there to do something meaningful. And that's really, you know, once you stay past the first thirty days or so, you're committed to the eighteen months.

• 12:56Mike Massimino?

  Right. And that window, I mean, so that there's a sweet spot of when you can do it that quickly and get there in that six months. If you miss that window, you're waiting for a while, aren't you?

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Right, exactly right.

• 13:06Mike Massimino?

  So there's these certain times when you can go and you can't miss the, can't miss the train.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  It's so stressful. I mean, when you say that like, um, do you know how much money has already been spent? Like when you say it's like a multinational effort and all these, all this expense so far, like, do you have an idea of that money?

• 13:27Speaker 04

  Well, you know, the expense is mostly up until now on research and development. So the space station is a hundred billion dollars worth of investment, as I'm understanding. Also, the work in the Orion capsule, which will take the astronauts from the launch pad, presumably at Kennedy Space Center, up to the Mars transit vehicle, and then bring them back again at the end of the mission. The space launch system, the next generation big rocket that's going to look like the Saturn V, based on shuttle technology. You know, all those things have several billion dollars a year in budgets, and they've been spending for several years. But, you know, the Mars program itself is still in the study phase, and so nobody has actually told us to go to Mars yet. It would essentially be illegal for NASA to send somebody to Mars, because Congress has not authorized that particular

• 14:11Speaker 04

  expenditure. So what we're doing, Congress has authorized us to research the problem, and that's what we're doing now.

• 14:17Speaker 05

  What are your main, like, research things? You mentioned the radiation problem. What else are you looking at?

• 14:23Speaker 04

  Well, other things are the psychological aspects. Imagine it's just you and four or five of your closest personal friends locked up in a vehicle the size of, let's say, a Winnebago or two, for two and a half years, face to face, with only each other to look at. And the longer the mission goes, up until the halfway point, you're going to be getting further and further from Earth.

• 14:42Speaker 05

  I think it would be good if you could choose who you went with. No? If it was like me, Michael Fassbender. I mean, who would you go with, Mike?

• 14:50Mike Massimino?

  Uh, I'd go with you. You want to go? John will go. They don't usually do that, though.

• 14:56Speaker 05

  You don't get to pick.

• 14:57Mike Massimino?

  No. That's why we have bosses, and they pick. And then you say, why did you, what the heck? So that's probably going to be, the tradition will continue.

• 15:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:04Mike Massimino?

  How did they put these guys together? But, you know, John, we're going to move on to our cosmic query section. And we've got some related questions from our audience that Maeve will hit us up with now.

• 15:20Speaker 05

  So, um, here's a question. What kinds of people should be sent to Mars? And psychologists, journalists, medical doctors? And what do you think, John?

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Well, my answer to that is NASA does a pretty good job of picking astronauts. And I'm not just brown nosing with Mike here, but it seems like that NASA can find people that are jet pilot, concert pianist, neurosurgeon, gourmet chefs. And you're gonna need that kind of skill mix with a small group of people going to Mars. Let's say four, or five, or six people. You're gonna wanna have people that can do everything. Even a botanist might be a good idea. There's probably gonna be at least one doctor in the crew, probably several people trained at the emergency medical tech level. But you need to have people that are gonna be good at fixing things, because inevitably things will break, and there are people that are just good at fixing things, and that's probably gonna be the most important person on the crew.

• 16:15Mike Massimino?

  All right, it's time for the lightning round.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 16:18Mike Massimino?

  Rapid fire. So, Johnny, you ready?

• 16:21Speaker 04

  I'm ready.

• 16:21Mike Massimino?

  Okay, so Mave's gonna answer this question. I'm gonna hit this bell. I think I'm just gonna hit it whenever I want, but apparently there's some method to it. But I'm gonna hit this thing. It's really great, you know, I rode my bike here today, and this bell drives people crazy. I have a bell on my bike. In New York City, it's necessary, because people are always in the way. Get out of the way, you just do this.

• 16:39Speaker 05

  Hey, do you wear your space helmet when you're on your bike?

• 16:41Mike Massimino?

  No, I wear a bike helmet, and I need more than that. It's one of the most dangerous things. I'm glad I got here.

• 16:46Speaker 05

  Same.

• 16:47Mike Massimino?

  New York City's dangerous. All right, on bicycle. All right, so here we go. We're gonna do this, I'm gonna ring this bell, I guess, for the next question, or whenever appropriate. Hit us, lightning round.

• 16:56Speaker 05

  Okay. This question is from Jonathan Laird, and he is asking Mike, and then after, I'm gonna put the question to you, Don, if given the opportunity, would you personally like to be among the first humans to colonize, move to, or visit Mars? Two parts.

• 17:13Mike Massimino?

  Yes, I wanna go visit, and I wanna come home. John?

• 17:17Speaker 04

  Mike, I don't wanna go to Mars. I would like to go to the moon, and I would like to go to the space station, but Mars is too far away and too dirty.

• 17:23Mike Massimino?

  There you have it.

• 17:24Speaker 05

  You don't wanna go to Mars. I wanna go to Mars.

• 17:26Mike Massimino?

  He wants to send other people there. What kind of example is that?

• 17:29Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 17:29Mike Massimino?

  Scratch that answer.

• 17:30Speaker 05

  I can't believe it.

• 17:31Mike Massimino?

  You wanna send everybody else.

• 17:32Speaker 05

  Ooh, it's too dirty.

• 17:33Mike Massimino?

  The guy that knows most about it wants to send somebody else. There's something wrong with that. All right.

• 17:37Speaker 05

  It's too far away. Okay, the next one is from Brandon, and he contacted us on Snapchat. This question, John, this is for you. Could we use artificial gravity by either spinning a habitation unit around a central support, or by counterweighting it with another mass?

• 17:52Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, the answer is yes, and we're studying that. The Human Research Program is investigating whether that's a good way to provide countermeasures for people in space and whether it's cost-effective. So, yes, yes, yes.

• 18:02Speaker 05

  Great.

• 18:03Mike Massimino?

  There was the bell. Go.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  Troy2 on Snapchat. What should mankind's first words on Mars be? A reference to Armstrong or not? What do you think, Mike?

• 18:10Mike Massimino?

  What do I think? Uh, Neil Armstrong thought of that stuff after he landed on the moon because he didn't want to get distracted.

• 18:17Speaker 05

  What?

• 18:18Mike Massimino?

  You know that story, John?

• 18:19Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 18:20Mike Massimino?

  I asked him that question. He did not get a publicist, his wife, no one thought of that. He took care of it after he landed. So, I think what you should do is get there first and then be inspired.

• 18:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk All-Stars. On this Ty Capsule episode, we're revisiting some of your favorite moments from the very first season of that new series. Planetary scientist David Grinspoon has been a friend of StarTalk for a long time, and we like to call him Dr. Funky Spoon, in part because that's his Twitter handle. But, holding that aside, on this episode, Visualizing Our Universe, David takes over the hosting seat to chat with co-host Chuck Nice and studio guest Carter Emmard. He's Director of Astrovisualization at the American Museum of Natural History, one of the coolest titles you could ever have on a business card.

• 19:15Chuck Nice?

  So, here's the cool thing about having Carter here is when I saw that we were going to do a Cosmic Queries for Astrovisualization, and you know Cosmic Queries is where we take questions from all over the internet in whatever incarnation where we exist as StarTalk, and our fans ask us things that they want to know. And I saw that that's what we were going to be talking about, and the first question I had was, "What the hell is Astrovisualization?" Because I had never heard of it before, and of course, I had to go do some research. But, Carter, this is fascinating stuff.

• 19:53Speaker 07

  Explain yourself, sir.

• 19:54Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 19:56Speaker 08

  Well, essentially, it's a way using the modern technology and display and data visualization, hooked into immersive theater, which the planetarium has always been, as a recreation of night sky. But now, with video control, controlled by computers, essentially, you're staring up into your entire visible field. A construction of the universe is best that we know of. In other words, to visualize essentially that information, to move through it and do that accurately. And also through simulations of astrophysics, to talk about the behavior, or to simulate, try to simulate the behavior of the universe across time.

• 20:34Chuck Nice?

  Nice. So now, and from what I've seen that you have done, I mean, it kind of, would it be kind of weird or crazy to call it kind of like a Google Maps of the universe?

• 20:45Speaker 08

  Well, that's exactly what it is.

• 20:47Chuck Nice?

  Okay, good. So I'm not, I am not crazy.

• 20:50Speaker 07

  You may be crazy, but you got that one just right.

• 20:52Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know what, that's, you know what, that's probably more the case, David. Is that I am still crazy, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

• 21:02Speaker 07

  One of the great things about being Carter's friend, in addition to his colleague, is that sometimes he'll, he'll take some of us after hours into, and he basically calls it his spaceship, and he's even called it his holodeck.

• 21:14Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 21:15Speaker 07

  And it's, it is, that is what you have. You have a holodeck.

• 21:17Speaker 08

  It's like, I kind of like to make a joke, if you can, if you have a holodeck, then you don't need the starship.

• 21:22Chuck Nice?

  Well, they have.

• 21:24Speaker 07

  The fine line.

• 21:24Chuck Nice?

  That's so true, yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 08

  But in a, in a way, that's really true, and that's, that's what, that's what the job is about. So you, you take.

• 21:32Chuck Nice?

  So now, what constitutes a holodeck?

• 21:33Speaker 08

  Well, it's.

• 21:34Chuck Nice?

  Just for the uninitiated.

• 21:35Speaker 08

  It's to give you.

• 21:37Speaker 07

  It's a Star Trek reference for the really uninitiated. Which is, which is the room that can go in and basically simulate any sensory experience.

• 21:46Speaker 08

  Sure, sure. And so I, I'd say, okay.

• 21:49Speaker 07

  And Carter's almost there.

• 21:50Speaker 08

  We're, we're almost there. Visually, it's an immersion in, in the, in the data, in the, in the map, essentially. So if you look at the traditional planetarium, it's stars on the ceiling, you can point out the Big Dipper and Orion and the. Motion of this, sort of a diurnal motion, the sky, the stars rise and set, carries the sun along with it, the moon, and, you know, the phases of the moon and the planets and all that. And that's our view from, from the earth. It's amazing that the ancients were able to sort of figure out at all that we go around the sun, because the sun obviously goes around us every day, you know, and, and that the planets go around, and that we live in this, this broader geography called the galaxy, and then the galaxy is just one of many. Okay, so we, we sort of have all that information.

• 22:34Speaker 08

  So, plotting it accurately and moving out into the data and moving through it is that you see it three dimensionally, so you feel as though you're in the presence of, you are, you're in the presence of that data, and that's what we do. So the dome is the immersive theater that surrounds us, and then we can move out, we can move away from the earth, we can fly over the surface of planets that we have information for. Mars, we have tremendous information for. Moon, Mercury, certainly our own planet. And Mars is something that's very interesting, because we have this tremendous campaign in support of eventually humans going there and so forth. But, that, we have a six terabyte data set that you can fly over.

• 23:19Speaker 08

  It's a big laptop right there. Of Mars. It's essentially, it's about three quarters of Mars down to the size of a two-car garage, six meters. Wow. And we can fly for hours over just one section of the canyon. And you get lost, and you can also go to boring parts of Mars, you know, where it's flat. But, the thing is, is that- I love that, the boring part of Mars. Well, there are- As if.

• 23:40Speaker 07

  You'd be surprised, a lot of it's just flat and featureless.

• 23:45Speaker 08

  Coming back to the holodeck is, is just this notion that, you know, we have a tremendous, tremendous mountain of data that's on the ground, it's in NASA's Planetary Data Service, the PDS, and it's a matter of taking that information, contextualizing it. I've, I've had an army of high school students who have taken basically the stereo images from the, the micro imager, it's on the arm of the, of the solar powered rover. This is spirit and opportunity and opportunity, opportunity is still going. We're not messing with the curiosity over data yet because it tends to be under scientific embargo. But you're able to take the dual images and use data or use software from NASA to synthesize

• 24:29Speaker 08

  that into accurate 3D models and so, and then we have to contextualize where they are. But in that sense, we're essentially looking so close, only like three centimeters, so just over an inch, these tiny little targets on Mars, you can see all this incredible detail on a rock, on a planet that no one's been to.

• 24:48Speaker 07

  Right.

• 24:49Speaker 08

  This is, this is what NASA does is it reaches out there and other, and the European Space Agency, the space agencies, the world, we're going to these other places and we're bringing this back. It's our job and obligation to put that into a context that everyone can see.

• 25:05Speaker 07

  Now, let me tell you, I just said- That, that, what you just described really is like being there in a much more fundamental way than a planetarium show used to be. Correct. That leads me to want to ask you a question that's slightly more philosophical, which is, I mean, you and I both are children of Apollo and we grew up dreaming about space and going into space and 2001, A Space Odyssey, and that was going to be the future in our life and neither one of us has gotten to go into space yet. We're getting a little bit older. Who knows what's going to happen? Well, join me after the show, fellas, and I'll do something for you. Excellent. Look forward to that. But, but I guess what I want to know is, on the other hand, you've gotten more and more into this visualization and this, this ability to go there in this way that is not quite

• 25:48Speaker 07

  being there bodily, but it's more being there than just looking at pictures. And I've heard you say things like, well, we don't need a spacecraft because we've got a holodeck and you're kind of joking, but I also get the sense that there's a way in which maybe you feel that this is a valid way for human beings to experience space and that we can send our unmanned spacecraft there, our, sorry, our unhummed, our robotic spacecraft, our unpiloted spacecraft, they're not, they're not just unmanned, they're unwommed too, so let's say unpiloted. But we can send our spacecraft there and they gather the data, really good data, and then we visualize it and it's as if we're going there, but we don't need to send our frail human bodies there. So do you feel like that is, in a way, the space exploration of the future?

• 26:33Speaker 08

  To some degree, yes, and I, especially when you get beyond the solar system.

• 26:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cosmochemist Natalie Starkey first joined StarTalk as a science guest on the StarTalk Live show at the Beacon Theater here in New York City. And our audience loved her so much, we just had to bring her back. And we did. This time as a StarTalk All-Star. She's joined in studio with co-host Chuck Nice and planetary scientist Lindy Elkins Tanton in this episode, Searching for Space Water.

• 27:04Chuck Nice?

  Okay, this is Chris Jacobs coming to us from Twitter. And Chris wants to know this. Do you think we'll be mining from asteroids or meteors in the very near future? It's a good question because we have now landed with filet.

• 27:22Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 27:23Chuck Nice?

  So how far are we from actually going in and mining?

• 27:26Speaker 09

  Yeah, that's really debatable because, I mean, it's something that we've, it's kind of come to the forefront in the last few years. And there's a couple of kind of private companies that are now looking at actually doing space mining.

• 27:37Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 27:38Speaker 09

  Originally, I think they were saying it was going to happen really soon. And I think as scientists, we all stood there going, wow, okay, they're going to do this really quickly and that's going to be very, very impressive if they can do it. And I think their plans have been slightly scaled back when they realized that actually it is going to be a little bit trickier than they thought. They've got to get the funding together. But the potential is that if they were to be able to mine these things, the return economically is enormous. So a small investment to start with, you know, we're still talking billions of dollars.

• 28:09Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 09

  But you could potentially release many, many more billions of, you know, from these asteroids.

• 28:15Chuck Nice?

  And that's because, you know, of course, you being a geologist, inside of these asteroids are the same elements.

• 28:23Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 28:24Chuck Nice?

  That we find here on Earth.

• 28:25Speaker 09

  Exactly.

• 28:26Chuck Nice?

  Which means the rare elements, the ones that are really expensive.

• 28:30Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 28:31Chuck Nice?

  We might be able to find crap loads of those.

• 28:33Speaker 09

  There's so much up there. And, you know, quite a lot of the precious metals are so, so important on Earth for making a lot of our electronics.

• 28:40Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 09

  And there's a finite amount on Earth, you know, we're going to use it up. It's in seams and stuff and it's concentrated in different areas. That's why we mine in different. Areas on the surface, but with an asteroid, there's tons of this material. And so the potential is that it, I mean, there's every potential that we can mine these things. But it's just going to be a case of time and economics. And then we've got to decide how much we need, say platinum, how much we need the platinum. And if we've run out on earth, what price it's got to on earth? And whether it's going to be economical to go into space and make this happen. So I think it is going to happen in the future. And I think it's going to be a case of, hopefully, what I hope is private companies working with space agencies. So that we get some scientific return from this, but we also get whatever we need economically.

• 29:25Speaker 09

  So, yeah, do you have anything to add, Lindy?

• 29:28Speaker 10

  Yeah, I can't resist. So they are thinking, they've got even models for how they could go to a rocky asteroid. Take some of that miracle water that's trapped in the minerals and heat it up to release the water. And so it's feasible, it's not economically viable yet, like you say. But the thing I like to think about, we're trying to go to an iron, a metal asteroid right now with a mission to look at it. And if we could bring that back to earth, you're right, it would be, it would be the equivalent of all the metals we've ever needed. But then you don't really make billions and billions of dollars because what you do is you collapse the global market.

• 30:05Speaker 09

  Yeah. Because then you have too much of it.

• 30:07Chuck Nice?

  Right, right. Because from an economics.

• 30:09Speaker 10

  Interesting question.

• 30:09Chuck Nice?

  From an economic standpoint, if we had a crap load of gold here on earth, gold would no longer be valuable.

• 30:18Speaker 09

  Yeah, so we'd have to kind of retain it. So there'd have to be, you know, organizations that retained it and released it as we needed it, otherwise.

• 30:24Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you would have.

• 30:25Speaker 09

  There'd be no cost to it.

• 30:26Chuck Nice?

  The fact is, you would have to, you would own the asteroid. And then you would release the gold as necessary. So you would basically corner the market.

• 30:35Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 30:35Chuck Nice?

  On whatever it is, platinum, gold, or whatever it is. And then you would determine how much you're going to release to set the price for it.

• 30:42Speaker 09

  And then there's other problems with who owns this stuff because it's space, you know? We, we understand earth, we fight over who owns bits of the earth, and that's bad enough. But we're going to space, well, who owns the stuff? So if a private company goes up, a US company, is it a US asteroid then? Is it a whole, is it all US resources or is it the global, you know?

• 31:01Chuck Nice?

  All I know is if I land on that asteroid.

• 31:04Speaker 09

  It's yours.

• 31:05Chuck Nice?

  That's my asteroid. And if you think it's not, you can kiss my asteroid, okay?

• 31:11Speaker 09

  Very good.

• 31:14Chuck Nice?

  All right, let's move on, let's move on. Um, Lucas M. Rodriguez, and he wants to know, which of the two icy moons is more likely to support life? In your opinion, Europa or Enceladus?

• 31:29Speaker 09

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 31:30Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so which one of those two moons from those two planets is more likely to have life?

• 31:38Speaker 09

  That is so, gee, I could not decide, actually, between those. They're both quite, I'm gonna say, highly likely to, they've got the right conditions almost, so I, I don't know. Do you have an, do you have an idea? I, I don't know, I think both could.

• 31:54Speaker 10

  I can't immediately think of a reason why one would be more likely than the other, but the, the thing that troubles me about it is that the very most likely place for there to be life on them is at the bottom of the water ocean next to the rock.

• 32:06Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 32:06Speaker 10

  And how we will ever detect that, I don't know.

• 32:09Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, can we just, so we've got to get through the ice, they've both got an ice layer, I guess, on that outside. Um, so, we've got to get through the ice with some kind of spacecraft and drop it in, and then get that to get to the bottom of that ocean. It's not very easy, because if it's deep, you know, we'd find it hard to get to the bottom of our own.

• 32:26Chuck Nice?

  We can't even get to the bottom of our own ocean.

• 32:28Speaker 09

  So, the pressure's crazy, the conditions are gonna be not very conducive to, you know, getting, you know, to get, transmitting a signal back, and to understand what's there. So, so yes, I guess, it's gonna be hard for us to tell.

• 32:41Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, there you have it. Uh, Lucas, you have just given our two scientists a Sophie's Choice. They cannot decide, okay? Both my babies must die.

• 32:52Speaker 09

  I know.

• 32:53Chuck Nice?

  I can't decide. All right. That is fantastic. Um, what is our next question? We'll come.

• 33:02Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 33:03Chuck Nice?

  Wait, let me see, because I know we're running out of time.

• 33:05Speaker 09

  We are, we are.

• 33:06Chuck Nice?

  I saw a cool question from someone from the United Emirates. Oh my god. And what they wanted to know was, can we make a substitute for water so that when we are traveling to someplace else, instead of having a waystation, can we make a substitute for water for, for both here on Earth and for space travel? And I'll look for their name while you guys answer that.

• 33:24Speaker 09

  Okay, but I guess it, it, yes, okay, I get the question. But it's understanding like why we need water and what water does on earth. And water acts as a solvent and it's, it's basically allows us to, for thing, for reactions to happen.

• 33:38Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 33:38Speaker 09

  Um, so, but, and there are other solvents as liquids that can exist in the solar system that could do the same job. Um, but we wouldn't be able to drink them or survive on them. But that doesn't mean that other life forms couldn't, but we just haven't seen those life forms yet. Um, we have like just a little bit of time, Lyndy, do you want to add anything to this?

• 33:58Speaker 10

  No, I, I, I think you nailed it. There's nothing else that will do it for people but water.

• 34:02Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 34:02Chuck Nice?

  So water is it. I mean, we could make a substitute, but you know, why would you, right?

• 34:08Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 34:08Chuck Nice?

  That's, that's really the deal.

• 34:09Speaker 09

  Exactly, but it doesn't mean that other organisms couldn't, the, the, other organisms elsewhere, alien organisms might not need water. That's the thing, but they need something that's liquid that probably, that is not going to boil away and not going to freeze too easily. That they can survive in and form in.

• 34:25Chuck Nice?

  Got you. And by the way, it came from, okay, here's the name, Shirag Jangla.

• 34:30Speaker 09

  Oh, brilliant.

• 34:31Chuck Nice?

  Dubai and the United Arab Emirates.

• 34:33Speaker 09

  Wow, and they've got, you know, quite a lot of desert there, not much water going on there.

• 34:38Chuck Nice?

  Can you, can you, can you just imagine why someone from Dubai might ask a question of, can we make a substitute for water?

• 34:46Speaker 09

  I know.

• 34:47Chuck Nice?

  Because I'm so tired of eating sand.

• 34:50Speaker 09

  They've made a city out of sand.

• 34:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk All-Stars. You're listening to a special edition, our first ever time capsule episode of this brand new spinoff of StarTalk. We sent out a survey to our fans asking you to select your favorite hosts and episodes, and you did. Planetary scientist Carolyn Porco is leader of the imaging science team of the Cassini mission, currently in orbit around Saturn. I call her Madame Saturn, Saturn being my second favorite planet, first of course is Earth. But she's got the job maybe I always wanted because I, then I'd just, I'd be in love with Saturn my whole life. And I'd get to look at pictures of it all the time. On this episode of StarTalk All-Stars, Listening for Aliens, Carolyn takes the driver's seat

• 35:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  with a little help from co-host Chuck Nice and science guest Dan Wertheimer, chief scientist of the SETI at Home program.

• 35:52Carolyn Porco?

  I initiated just a few years ago my own message to the Milky Way. And just, we were gonna construct a message. And you know, is the idea really that someone's gonna pick this up? Well, who knows? But it's really more to get the humanity on Earth to be more cosmically aware, to realize they are one planet in a big galaxy that might be teeming with life, and so on. But I know that the Breakthrough Listen Project doesn't think that this is a good idea, and they don't like groups like, I'm not taking this personally, but they don't like groups like mine to take it upon ourselves, to put a message together, and use the Aracebo Telescope.

• 36:37Carolyn Porco?

  So why don't you weigh in on this and say why this is such a hot topic?

• 36:44Speaker 12

  Right. So, as you pointed out, it's very controversial. There are informal polls indicate that about 99% of astronomers think that it's a bad idea to transmit. Now, we're not talking about if we receive a message, should we transmit? But just should we take the first action of transmitting messages? Now, of course, Earthlings, as you know, transmit all the time. There's radio and television. But you're talking about deliberate, pointed, powerful transmissions. And most people think that's a bad idea. That it's, that we're an emerging, kind of primitive civilization. We should listen at first and see what's out there before we deliberately transmit messages. Maybe in a thousand years or so, after we learn a little bit more about the universe,

• 37:29Speaker 12

  then we could think about transmitting. But most people think it's a dangerous, or potentially dangerous, thing to do.

• 37:35Carolyn Porco?

  Why, why? Why is it dangerous? Why is it dangerous?

• 37:39Speaker 12

  So, some people say that, oh, all the advanced civilizations are gonna be peaceful, and, you know, they've learned to live together in peace, and they're not gonna harm us, or mine our, you know, rape our daughters, or mine all our planet, or blow us up. But we really don't know. I mean, that's sort of, maybe that's naive thinking. We just don't know what's out there. So, there is some danger, because we just really don't know what other civilizations are like. So, most people think that if you wanna transmit... You shouldn't just do it, take it upon yourself to transmit a message, but there should be a, what we call the Asilamar process, where there, if you're doing some dangerous thing in science, like researching, you know, viruses, or doing kind of genetic engineering that's potentially

• 38:22Speaker 12

  dangerous, then there's a process that scientists go through where they talk about the potential risks, figure out how to kind of contain some of those risks, what the potential benefits are. So we think that this is a potentially dangerous thing that should be an international body of all kinds of people from different disciplines should get together, take a few years to figure this thing out. What are the potential risks? What are the dangers? What are the potential benefits? So far, the messages that have been sent by Earthlings have been not scientific messages, they've been mostly publicity stunts or fundraising stunts. Nobody's actually done a scientific experiment where they send a message out

• 39:03Speaker 12

  and then maybe the thing is 10 light-years away, so they wait for 20 years, because it takes 10 years to get there, and then 10 years to get back, and then they listen. Nobody's done any kind of science. It's so far been just sort of publicity. Most people think that it's a bad idea because of the potential dangers. Stephen Hawking is one of the people that's...

• 39:24Chuck Nice?

  And that's because, you know, I'm a Star Trek fan, and so probably one of the most famous Star Trek episodes is The Borg. And The Borg had no idea that Earthlings, or Terrans, existed. But then they got, they got a message, basically, that said, "Hey, these guys are..." And then they were like, "We will not stop until you are all destroyed."

• 39:50Carolyn Porco?

  Okay, but I'm, I'm, I'm on the other side of this, you see. I'm thinking, I, I mean, I don't know, can I say this on radio? You all sound like you're members of the National Rifle Association. You know? I mean, there's no reason to be that paranoid. First of all, there's an argument, it's not new with me. It's, and I'm sorry, I meant to come prepared with the guy who wrote this, there's actually a paper on this, but there's an argument to be made that if in a civilization where that... Aggressive. Uh, they probably would have destroyed themselves long before they ever got here. And also that the time scales, the time scales are so long. Uh, and right now, like you said, we're pretty.

• 40:33Carolyn Porco?

  I mean, sure, Aracibo could get reasonably far. And I was planning to use Aracibo, but um, I, I'm just think it's, it's um, it's over the top paranoid.

• 40:46Chuck Nice?

  I think, I think that you're right. And here's why. Uh, for this reason and this reason alone. To find out that you are not alone. I think you would be so happy to go and say hi to somebody. You know, just because when you look at the vastness of the universe and then you see, oh, my God, there's some people over there. Like, that would be so exciting that I don't believe, like, let me go and conquer them would be the thing that would pop into your mind. Especially if you're advanced enough to actually make your way there and get, and get to them.

• 41:19Carolyn Porco?

  Dan.

• 41:20Speaker 12

  I think that that's, I think you're probably both right that that's, it's unlikely that advanced civilizations are gonna be dangerous to us. But the problem is, we really, it's a very difficult thing to say, yeah, absolutely, we know that for sure. There are no dangerous civilizations out there that conquer the galaxy. So we just don't know. So I, I think you need some kind of uh, a Silomar process. The Academy of Sciences from all over the world should get together and assess the dangers. And it shouldn't be up to a, a single individual to put Earth at risk. Um, but after you get, go through that process and try to assess the risks and the possible benefits, then uh, then I, you know, if, if they say it's okay, there are no risks, then I'm all for it. Or if the risks are minor.

• 42:05Speaker 12

  But right now, we just don't know.

• 42:07Carolyn Porco?

  I wish that this kind of care that you are hoping to see with regard to this issue had, had been applied to things like um, the use of fossil fuels and all the, you know, the technologies that have really come back to harm our environment.

• 42:22Speaker 12

  Yeah, but just because other people have made mistakes with technology doesn't mean that we should do that too. I think.

• 42:27Carolyn Porco?

  But, but Dan, the, the chances, the chance, it's such a hu- a low, low probability. It's like, maybe high risk, low probability. It's one of those, falls in that category.

• 42:38Speaker 12

  I just don't think you should put Earth at risk, even if with a low probability. It, uh, I think. You know, eh eh, maybe there's a 1% chance that you could wipe out all of civilization. Are you willing to take that risk?

• 42:48Carolyn Porco?

  Whoa, wait, it's way, way lower than 1%.

• 42:50Chuck Nice?

  Listen, life might be better under the alien overlords.

• 42:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  One of your favorite episodes featured not one, but two all-star hosts. Astrophysicists Summer Ash and Emily Rice reclaiming the hashtag #WomenCrushWednesday on their episode, "Women Crushing It Wednesday," to celebrate women in science. Co-host Chuck Nice joined them in studio to help them answer your cosmic queries. Let's take a listen.

• 43:21Speaker 13

  The thing is with eh, with science, it tends to be like, the higher you get, the, the, the more imbalanced it becomes. Yeah, the less the normalization happens. And so, for whatever reason, there's, some people call it a leaky pipeline, and the idea is that you have this pipeline from, you know, student through to professor, and that the women drop out for some reason and the men don't drop out.

• 43:40Chuck Nice?

  I got you.

• 43:41Speaker 13

  Um, and so now that I'm an assistant professor, like, I'm one of, I, I'm the only female physicist in my department, and there's a couple other female engineers and a female geologist, um, and that's out of, you know, two dozen faculty members.

• 43:54Chuck Nice?

  Oh, wow.

• 43:55Speaker 13

  So that's a little bit disappointing. Um, you know, and you, eh, but eh, you, you try to find eh, your tribe a little bit, like, you try to find people that also care about changing the representation and, and, I love, I steal it from Shonda Rhimes, actually, normalizing it. It's not diversifying, because we don't just want, you know, we, we

• 44:13Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 13

  We don't want like a, a rainbow box of crayons just for the sake of having a rainbow. Like, we wanna normalize it, we wanna have science be representative of the population as, of a whole.

• 44:24Chuck Nice?

  Uh huh.

• 44:25Speaker 13

  Because that's actually a scientific thing. If you have a random sample of, you know, eh, people that wanna go into science, if you randomly draw from people, then science, you know, people that are scientists should represent the overall population.

• 44:37Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 44:38Speaker 13

  If you don't, if you have only, for example, white males becoming scientists, you have some kind of selection bias. There are scientific words for that, and yet, people say, "Oh, but women aren't interested," and, you know, eh, the other people don't have the education or something like that. And it's like, no, there, there's, it's a selection bias.

• 44:57Chuck Nice?

  Correct.

• 44:58Speaker 13

  And, you know, there's a large enough population where we should be able to randomize these things out.

• 45:02Chuck Nice?

  And, and so that it would be reflected in the actual field.

• 45:05Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 45:06Chuck Nice?

  The field would reflect the population.

• 45:07Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 45:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I just want to add like for motivation, you know, what motivates me is that now because

• 45:14Speaker 13

  of the internet, there's all these social channels and social communities. And so even if your institution is very imbalanced with women or minorities, you can find those other people that are like you out there in those other departments. And so then it's kind of like Emily said, you know, you find your group and I'm motivated every day by the work that they're also trying to do to change how everything is in science and in the world in general.

• 45:41Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 45:42Speaker 13

  And so that and that's a way that you can cheer each other on. And that's a way that you can also just discover that there are so many other amazing people out there. Like I've discovered so many amazing women crushing it in science on social media and that.

• 45:57Chuck Nice?

  So it sounds, it sounds to me like what you're both, uh, the, the common thread through what you both have just said is that community is a big.

• 46:05Speaker 13

  Yes.

• 46:06Chuck Nice?

  Uh, big, big help in overcoming these challenges. Yeah. All right. We're doing a women crushing it Wednesday. Uh, questions from our cosmic queries audience and this is Jay Birchfield and Jay wants to know this. What seems to be the biggest barriers for women entering STEM fields? Do these barriers seem to be getting any smaller? So, uh, what are the biggest barriers and are, are there hope when it comes to the barriers that are being removed?

• 46:35Speaker 13

  I, some people say that the, the, there's barriers in terms of inspiring girls to be interested in science. Like some people think that, that girls and women just naturally aren't interested in science, which I think is totally wrong.

• 46:48Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:49Speaker 13

  Um, the, uh, I think like everybody is born naturally curious, but somehow women and, and girls tend to get discouraged away from it more than men are for some reason it feels like. And maybe it's, it's a little bit of these kind of unconscious biases. It's also a little bit of, I think, self doubt that women tend to have more than men have where they think, oh, I have to be smart to be a scientist. And so I'm not that smart. I'm not going to bother. It's also been shown that women tend to have a little bit higher expectations for themselves. Like they think, you know, is it maybe in classes like, oh, I have to get an A or else I'm not any good at this. Um, you know, or I have to, you know. Like, they underestimate their skills and they kind of overestimate their expectations. Whereas a dude might-

• 47:34Chuck Nice?

  No, men overestimate everything.

• 47:36Speaker 13

  Yeah.

• 47:36Chuck Nice?

  Seriously.

• 47:37Speaker 13

  And not be bothered by their underperformance.

• 47:40Chuck Nice?

  No, they really aren't.

• 47:41Speaker 13

  A C student and be like, "Well, I can be a physicist and a-

• 47:45Chuck Nice?

  I can be president. It's happened, people.

• 47:48Speaker 13

  I wish you were a C student. It's happening. A woman might get a B and be like, "Oh, I'm not any good at this," or something like that, and switch to something that she might think is easier.

• 47:57Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 47:57Speaker 13

  And then it kind of, you know, gets harder from there at various different levels. But I think most of the barriers are not actually scientific, but they're cultural.

• 48:07Chuck Nice?

  So they're cultural, social barriers, psychological barriers. And do you see them, the second part of the question was, do you see them getting better? Is there any empirical evidence that we are getting better at inspiring women going into STEM?

• 48:20Speaker 13

  Yeah, the empirical evidence is there, right? It's the participation.

• 48:23Chuck Nice?

  Okay, there you go.

• 48:24Speaker 13

  Right, and the achievements. And, you know, the participation is increasing, not uniformly across the fields and not as fast as we would like it to, but it's there.

• 48:33Chuck Nice?

  Cool.