Revolutionizing Tennis, with Nick Kyrgios

Has tennis gotten too routine? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice investigate the people and technology shaking up the sport with Top 40 player Nick Kyrgios and David Ramos, Coaching Education and Performance Manager at the USTA.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk Sports Edition. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. In this edition, we're going to pick up on some footage we got from last year. Gary O'Reilly and Chuck Nice, my co-hosts, they went behind the scenes at the U.S. Open and they got to talk with David Ramos. And he's the Director of Coaching Education and Performance Analytics for the United States Tennis Association. And they talked about how data and AI is revolutionizing tennis, as you might suspect. Check it out.

• 0:52Gary O'Reilly?

  So here we are with Dave Ramos at the U.S. Open Tennis. Dave is Senior Manager of Coaching Education, and I love this bit.

• 0:59Chuck Nice?

  And Performance Analytics.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Sounds great.

• 1:02Chuck Nice?

  We love that.

• 1:03Gary O'Reilly?

  We do, we love us some analytics.

• 1:05Chuck Nice?

  We love some analytics, man.

• 1:07Gary O'Reilly?

  So just break down briefly what it is your role involves here at USTA.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  Sure. And I'll talk a little bit about like the evolution of it because it started.

• 1:15Chuck Nice?

  I was about to say.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  It started at one, that's why there's two titles, because it started in one place and went to another.

• 1:20Chuck Nice?

  Because you, you don't have to go back too far to find out where Performance Analytics started, you know?

• 1:25Speaker 03

  It hasn't been too much time.

• 1:26Chuck Nice?

  It hasn't been too much time, so go ahead.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I actually went to school at Ferris State University up in Michigan and they had this professional tennis management program.

• 1:34Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  So I always have to start there because that's sort of my beginning.

• 1:38Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  And that's sort of the reason I got into coaching education at the USTA and Player Development is that at PTM, I was an instructor for college students who were going to become tennis professionals.

• 1:51Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  So I went through that program as a, as a college student myself. I played on the tennis team there. Then I was an instructor there for six years and then I got a master's degree and in order to complete my master's degree, I did a work experience at Player Development.

• 2:07Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  So I had done tons of video analysis. and so forth with my own college students and they taught students at Fair State how to use Dart Fish specifically as a as a solution. But when I left Fair State, I wanted to get into doing match analysis. So taking matches, adding data to matches and tagging them so that I could use, you know, video in a way that I had with technique, but to improve match play specifically.

• 2:32Chuck Nice?

  So you were kind of doing what we all know that every NFL team does, which is, yo, let's watch film on this team. We're playing the Packers this Sunday. Let's watch some film.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  It's commonplace and in 2007, it wasn't a whole lot of that going on within tennis. So when I I did a small work internship for player development, they offered me a full-time job after about four years.

• 2:57Chuck Nice?

  Sweet.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  So 2009, 2010, we started dabbling in some of the tagging, did some technique analysis. And then 2012, when Jim Curry became the Davis Cup captain, I raised my hand and said, hey, guys, if you're interested, I can provide scouting and analytics for Davis Cup.

• 3:13Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  So I drafted a couple of professional tennis management students who are around the country, trained them online, and we tagged like 150 matches that year remotely and gave all the data and information to Davis Cup.

• 3:26Gary O'Reilly?

  So you tagged it remotely, you didn't have to attend each match?

• 3:29Speaker 03

  We just send them the matches. I sent them the software, they tagged them, they give them back to me. We put it all together and check it and then we started creating custom graphics.

• 3:37Gary O'Reilly?

  So now I'm now I'm going to get into the weeds. How long does it take to tag a game?

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:41Gary O'Reilly?

  And how long does it take to tag a match?

• 3:42Chuck Nice?

  And then what does that data set look like? How big is the data set that you pull out of something like that?

• 3:46Speaker 03

  It really depends on how good you are. Okay. So when you're first starting, if a match is two hours, it'll probably take you double, take you four hours to do it. Then as you get better and better, you can sort of go twice speed and maybe you can get less than real time.

• 3:59Gary O'Reilly?

  You know what you're looking for then?

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. So you're so you're adding events about how the point starts, how the point finishes. You miss all the stuff in the middle in terms of the total number of strokes, but you can also add that like Zerali at 12 shots.

• 4:11Gary O'Reilly?

  So when you're looking at this and reading this information, are you reading it for the player? Are you reading it as strategy? Or are you reading it for the coach? Or all of the above?

• 4:23Speaker 03

  You usually start with a general set where you're measuring how the points start and end for both players. Any net approaches, any winners, any errors, serve placement, return placement, that sort of stuff. Then, once we get into providing it to somebody specific like Jim Currier, he'd say, "Well, don't forget to add all the first serve missed." I want to see what those things are.

• 4:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  And a mental skills specialist might say, "Hey, for this particular person, I want you to tell me how much time they take in between points." So, we start with a base and then from there, we can adapt it. So, that was really the start of what we would call the analytics department, which really wasn't formed until last year formally.

• 4:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  But I started in coaching ed and then it sort of grew as a side part of what services we could provide. And now formally, we're focused in that area.

• 5:08Chuck Nice?

  We speak to a lot of, lot of people in analytics and for many different sports. And as, as big as this is becoming, when, when, when you're looking at it for particular players, this is a lot of information.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 5:25Chuck Nice?

  Do players actually get this information? Or is it the team around them? Because I'm not sure, this is such a mental game. It's so mental. I'm not sure if I would want all this information. You might be too in my head. Is there anybody who wants this information?

• 5:39Speaker 03

  It's really a, first I'll say, we actually have a performance analytics philosophy. And our philosophy is to first and foremost, develop a relationship with the team and with the coach. And deliver all the things that they want specifically first. And then, once we have a relationship, if they, if they want us to deliver small bites of it to the player, we will go ahead and do that, but we work through the coach. And there are some, plenty of players out there who have no coach.

• 6:06Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  So, they need, they need.

• 6:07Chuck Nice?

  Well, they need you then.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  They need the information directly. And so, if that's the request, that's fine. But typically, we'll work through the coach as well as the rest of the performance team, which might be a mental skills specialist, which might, of course, the strength and conditioning coach is always involved. So, yeah, it's a coach-centered approach. And then, they have to filter out the few things that we might deliver to the player.

• 6:27Chuck Nice?

  A database so that you might be able to go into a reservoir and pull out information on an opponent. So, I mean, so there's two types of analytics. The one is that helps me as a player.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  I was, that's where I was gonna start.

• 6:40Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's me. But the, the other type is I get to see your strengths and weaknesses and analyze that. Have we gotten to that point yet?

• 6:50Speaker 03

  You know, we really started using it for developmental purposes first. That's to, for every player to know sort of where their true identity is, what the core game is and to, and to clearly identify that. Cause you'd be surprised, there are a lot of players, especially that, you know, that we're helping or up and coming. And they don't really know their identity yet and they get confused when it's like, say, playing a certain style of play or playing on a certain surface.

• 7:12Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  They, they get away from their core game. So number one is let's identify for our players what their core game is. And let's try to measure the specific areas of focus that they're working on, right? So if an area of focus of one of our national coaches is the second serve or the winner error ratio. We can literally look in, you know, we do this about three or four times a year. We grab all their matches. We put them together. We say, you know, in the first quarter, your second serve percentage was 52%. Our goal was to go to 55% and here it is. We hit 55%. How do we do that? We did it by mixing up the serve. So developmental purposes are first. And then secondary is to take all the matches we do for developmental purposes. And then look at who the opponents are and put those together to create scouting information. So.

• 7:54Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Development first, scouting second.

• 7:55Gary O'Reilly?

  See, for me, I'd be building a historic database to, for game opponents to say, right, their first second serve was this historically. Now it's this, this might change. I mean, we did, we did a show not that long ago with the authors of the MVP machine, which is a baseball book. And they're using the ultra high-speed cameras. I think it's Rapsodo. Are you into that kind of system? Because that was.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  All the but, you're, you're, I'm breaking out the full vocabulary of what.

• 8:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, we do. That's why you're here.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  This is it, man. That's great. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to have a chance to talk about it.

• 8:33Gary O'Reilly?

  So the thing is for me, looking at what the baseball guys did with the hitters and the pitchers. The ability to analyze just the minutest movement, changes a serve, changes a stroke. Are you there now?

• 8:45Chuck Nice?

  But more importantly, and here's, this is where it gets weird. That minutia is something somebody has to be able to come in and coach on top of.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 8:55Chuck Nice?

  You know?

• 8:57Speaker 03

  I mean, we Someone's happy in the background. I'll answer the questions, there's a couple there. So, one is, in addition to doing the analytics that we provide for Qualys, we provide match analysis for Qualys. So, we get all the matches back to the Americans in the play. We give them information on their international opponents. We produced 100 matches that were not broadcast during the course of this tournament. And got them back to the players that played them, uh, played them or their opponents within 24 hours by text message. Dude, they love you. They love you, don't they? Yeah, of course, because they're like, they have an expectation when they play at the US Open that every match here is broadcast. Well, that's not the case. Especially for Qualys. So then, the, then the main draw comes up, we do the same exact thing. Send everybody information on their opponents.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  We, within 24 hours, show them their own matches, which do go to a match analysis system here that the US Open provides. However, virtually zero players log into it because they just don't know it's there. Yeah. But when they get a text message from us that supplies them with the scouting and says, "Here's your, uh, your match information on your opponent. Oh, by the way, here's your match." And we also purchase Hawkeye reports for every single match that's played here. Yeah. So, we give them the highest level of information and feedback that's possible during the main draw. Then myself and another team of specialized filmers go around to all the courts and film it with high-speed and HD cameras. We use the FS700. Yeah. I used one with an external recorder that did 2K, 240 frames a second, continuous slow motion for the first time. Wow. Where we're able to really look at the technique and common fundamentals

• 10:24Speaker 03

  of all the best players. And then we can do side-by-side comparisons with developing Americans and say, "The reason your serve isn't as good as these top players is, okay, you lack the leg drive, you lack the cocking position, you lack the toss consistency." So, we're really using high-speed video to collect the parameters around which the best players play with. But we can also detect small problems or deficiencies in their technique, which don't allow them to do certain things. So, if you have an eastern forehand grip on your serve, you're gonna have trouble hitting a kick serve. And your toss is always to the right, and you're not gonna be able to hit a kick serve. So, we're able to deduce things from the technique that help us to analyze things at a, uh, an analytics perspective as well. So, wow.

• 11:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Developing a player's technical abilities phenomenal and brilliant. I look at it now as the receiving end of a serve. And I think about the baseball analogy with the pitcher and the hitter. Remember what Carlos Beltran said? He knew what was coming.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  He knew what was coming.

• 11:26Gary O'Reilly?

  He read the tape.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  By the way, this is a sport where that reaction time is also is also important. Very close. You have to kind of almost know that person's game in order to play them.

• 11:38Gary O'Reilly?

  So are you analyzing for tells on serves? As well as just adapting technique for the individual?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  That's that's pretty much the number one, you know, when a coach or a player, maybe they're new to using analytics. They're usually looking for where the players like to go on the pressure points.

• 11:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  You know, break points. And if it's 50 50 or 30 30 30, then there's really nothing there. We say, hey, there's nothing there. But as you all know, whether it's Serena Williams first serve on the add side, is she going wide or tee? What do you think? Wide or tee Serena Williams on the add side? What's her number one serve?

• 12:14Chuck Nice?

  I'm going. The tee.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Is that tee?

• 12:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 12:19Gary O'Reilly?

  No, that's.

• 12:19Chuck Nice?

  That's where I'm going.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Slice tee, right?

• 12:20Chuck Nice?

  That makes sense.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  I'm not going to give out any stats, but we all know Serena Williams, slice tee on the add side. That's her money serve, right?

• 12:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  Best players in the world have a game plan A. But Serena can be a B and C because she's that diverse. When we go down to 130 in the world, there's a lot of players that don't have any B and C. And their A is really what they're going to stick to. So if we can give a player one or two things like, hey, on the pressure points, this is where they like to go. And off the ground, this is where their better side is. And specifically, you know, this is really where they like to play. And so it's trying to give people, you want to give them good information about how to start points. And then we let them play tennis after that, right? We don't want to get into the minutia.

• 13:02Chuck Nice?

  Right, right, right, right. That makes sense too, because then you're not overwhelming and that makes sense.

• 13:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow. All right, so now, now I'm moving on.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  This is really cool, man.

• 13:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Because I told you I'd go in the weeds here.

• 13:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Tennis, if you've got the ability to have pattern recognition, right? Now, players do and don't, some can develop, but how long before you go, "Hey Watson, analyze this?"

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Been there, done that.

• 13:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you!

• 13:31Speaker 03

  We've asked already, and I want to save the best stuff for last, right? So, through our partnership with IBM, you know, they've been a big sponsor at the US Open here forever, they provide the data and analytics around the tournament, and we were fortunate enough to be one of a couple of departments that's involved in this IBM Innovation Project. And through this Innovation Project, we have a couple of main goals. One of them is to use the richest source of data that we have available, which is Hawkeye data. All the courts now have Hawkeye data, all the courts now have detailed stats. So we have a combination of detailed stats and Hawkeye data and video that we're getting here at the Open for every single main draw match that we're using in real time to, again,

• 14:14Speaker 03

  get back to the athletes and to provide scouting round by round. So that's sort of step one. Step two is to then use AI to look at the patterns that we see within Hawkeye, like patterns of play from Deuce and Ance, like the directions, and what's really critical is that, I told you, we do point starting and point ending shots, but we're missing all the stuff in between. Hawkeye and then Watson, they're going to get all the stuff in between, and they're going to be able to look at every single shot and give us things about speed and spin and all these other, and contact point that's not really there in video, and then kind of break it down and say, "Hey, you know, just like the keys to the match that they provide on the IBM site, in the very near future, we're going to be able to use AI to give us those qualities."

• 15:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guys, we've got to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to get the athlete's point of view from the perspective of Nick Kyrgios. This is StarTalk Sports Edition.

• 15:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition. Revolutionizing tennis. So, we just came off of a segment with Dave Ramos. That's some crazy stuff that he's talking about. I guess inevitable when you realize what role computers are playing in the rest of our lives. But why don't we get the point of view from a player? A world-ranked player? Who told you? Someone told you about my ranking, Neil? So, we got Nick Kyrgios. Nick, welcome to StarTalk Sports Edition. All right. You're currently ranked 40th in the world by the Association of Tennis Professionals. And so, you get to say you're in the top 40.

• 16:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a famous thing in America to be in the top 40. Stay there. If you're in the 41st, no one will know. Keep that top 40. I look at the people you've beaten on first time out, and it's quite impressive. Federer, Nadal. I mean, you... So, it's almost as though you have some secret thing that maybe they learn about later, but they don't know when they first meet you. But let me just... It's not often we get a, like, full-up professional in the house. Tell me, what... How long did you know you wanted to be a professional? When did you figure out you were good at tennis?

• 16:54Speaker 04

  Well, I actually played basketball when I was young first. I started playing basketball when I was seven and also played tennis. And my dad and my parents pushed me strongly into tennis. And then, coming from a stra-

• 17:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you never got above 5 feet tall?

• 17:07Speaker 04

  I'm actually 6'5".

• 17:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you 6'5"? Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  But uh yeah, I mean, I I play basketball all the time, but um I love it. Watch it Boston, massive Boston Celtics fan, watch it religiously. Um but yeah, and you know, coming from Australia, the pathway into becoming a tennis player was a lot easier than making it in basketball. So yeah, I went along with that and it turned out, it turned out pretty good.

• 17:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I would say. Uh I I see you're giving the understatements as well. So that's a good thing.

• 17:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but so, but you know, Australia has quite the tennis legacy. So it's also being one of the arms of the Grand Slam and the Australia Open was, did that intrigue you from early on? Was it? I mean, let me ask it differently. Does that contest completely occupy Aussies when it's going on?

• 18:00Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, we we do get reminded of our rich culture in this sport all the time. Um, you know, we have a very heavy weight to carry, you know, with past champions. Obviously, Leighton Hewitt, you know, still is our Davis Cup captain. Davis Cup is a team event that includes all all the countries. And, you know, he he's an amazing guy. He mentors us all. But yeah, we we do get reminded and it does weigh on our heads a little bit how much we do carry when we go out on the court every time. But as I said, I actually watch basketball every single day of my life. And that was my first love, my first passion. And I carry that swagger, people call it, onto the court now because all my role models are basketball players. Yeah, and I I don't.

• 18:38Chuck Nice?

  And it's it's so good. It's you're just so much fun to watch. It's so much fun watching you play. And it's so much fun listening to your comments. And, you know, so Nick has been kind of, I'll say, uh, finger wagged by the organization a couple of times for things that he's said. But yet, somehow, they always have a microphone on him.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, everyone's, everyone's watching. Yeah.

• 19:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I'm like, who's who, who's fooling who here? I think secretly, they love it. I think secretly, they're just like, oh, my God, he's gonna say something. We can't wait for him to say something. Because every time you do, it it makes, it makes, it brings people's attention back to them.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Of course. I mean, at the end of the day, like, sports entertainment, and I know that, and I know that where I am in the tennis world, like, they've kind of given me all this power, like, because I know that everyone's watching when I play. Everyone's like, all their eyes are on me. So I know that. I'm just having some fun out there. Like, I just do my thing and my, my, my role model's Kevin Garnett. So you know how things can get dicey out there from time to time.

• 19:45Chuck Nice?

  There you go. There you go. Yeah.

• 19:47Gary O'Reilly?

  So Nick, if you're a baller and you're six, five and you've obviously got a game and you're thinking, I can do this. What's the moment? I know you said the pathway was that much easier probably for tennis. But there had to be a moment where you just went, I really can do this. Was, was that light bulb moment? When, when did that occur for you?

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Well, at fourteen, I, I was shooting hoops at the back of my house and uh, my dad pretty much just came out and said, you can't play. Um, you can't play basketball anymore. Like he pretty much just gave me the conversation saying, you can't play basketball anymore. It's gonna affect, it's gonna give you injuries. And then it kinda just happened really fast to me. I was seventeen. Um, I was playing just general tournaments, challenger tournaments they're called. Um, and then I played qualifying of a tournament before Wimbledon. Made Wimbledon and then ended up beating Nadal for the first time. And then ever since then, my life's completely changed. Um, the spotlight has just been on my life ever since that day. So.

• 20:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hmm. Is, I'm curious something in tennis, um, as the ball comes towards, I mean, we have twenty other things we should ask you, but I wanna get this out of my head. Um, if you are six, five, the length of your arm plus the length of the racket.

• 21:04Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 21:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is a huge cross section on your side of the court.

• 21:09Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 21:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So why aren't more tennis players tall? Would you have to have a level of court of basketball swagger and coordination to pull it off?

• 21:20Chuck Nice?

  No, because the Joker is not, has no swagger. None. The Joker has no swagger at all. And he's probably taller than, taller than Nick. But when it comes, when it comes to swagger, he's about four foot two.

• 21:36Gary O'Reilly?

  The Napoleon of swagger.

• 21:38Chuck Nice?

  I'm just saying, you know.

• 21:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Napoleon of swagger.

• 21:40Chuck Nice?

  And, and, and listen, we're talking about one of my favorite players. Like technically I love to watch the guy play. I love watching.

• 21:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, but Chuck, I didn't ask you the question.

• 21:47Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 21:50Chuck Nice?

  Anyway, go ahead Nick.

• 21:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry. Tell me about your cross-section.

• 21:54Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of interaction with the ball.

• 21:57Speaker 04

  Well, I definitely think like this, I mean, in today's day and age, there's a lot of players on tour now that are actually quite tall and can move and are athletically more gifted these days. So I guess having long levers, it definitely helps in my serve. Uh, my serve is my, my best shot. And I mean, having long levers, I think you'd be able to generate way more power. And I feel like you just can cover more of the court as well. But back to Djokovic, like he's, I mean, he's, I think he's about six foot two. He's pretty tall, but um, he moves, his movement, I mean, you, you tend to lose a little bit of movement the taller you are, like that's just how it happens in tennis. And that's why Djokovic moves. I mean, his movement side to side forwards, it's.

• 22:32Chuck Nice?

  It's great.

• 22:33Speaker 04

  Unbelievable.

• 22:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, he's unbelievable.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  I've ever seen.

• 22:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, he gets to the ball like you can't believe, you know what I mean?

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:38Chuck Nice?

  I didn't realize he was only six two. I thought he was a little taller because he's so lanky, but I got it.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but, but, but Chuck, if I have a, a, a big wingspan, I don't have to get to the ball. I just reach for it. That's all I'm saying. I don't have to be where the ball is to just, the only thing that has to be where the ball is, is the racket.

• 22:55Chuck Nice?

  That's true. Um, however, I have to say, when you look at Nick's game, Nick has this devastating forehand that he takes, it almost looks like you take the ball and scoop it up and then like turn it over and then like slam it down on the other side of the court. And every time you do it, it's like a thing of beauty, man. It's like one of my favorite things to see. It's one of my favorite things to see, but yeah, so Neil is right. Yeah. If you're, I, I guess being tall and having, like you said, that levers is, is, is an advantage, you know?

• 23:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let's get on to analytics. So.

• 23:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So how mu- how, how, how big a part of your life is this?

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Tennis?

• 23:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No.

• 23:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, excuse me, how big a part of your life is tennis analytics?

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Oh, right. I was like, um, tennis analytics, well, I mean, so when, when I actually got told that, you know, you guys wanted to have a chat, now I was all, I was pretty excited to get on, to get on here. And, um, tennis analytics for me, it's funny, cause like, I've never been a big stack guy. Like, when people come to me, or like, there's like, a lot of stats of who I'm playing, and they say, "Look, this is where the guy likes to serve, this is what he likes to do on big points, this is what he likes to play in general, this is his style of play." I actually don't really like having any stats or anything in my head. Like, I just love going out there, playing completely on instinct, um, feeling, feeling the opponent out. I obviously know their strengths and weaknesses, and what they tend to do under pressure, but that's about it. I, I really don't like going out there with much information, I like just playing my game. And, and just having fun.

• 24:34Chuck Nice?

  Let, let me follow up on that then, with like, your in-game analytics, okay? Cause, uh, you know, one of the things that I enjoy watching about you when you play, is that you frustrate opponents. And that is mental, but it is also technical. Because you'll do things like get to the ball and you'll return shots that they know should have beaten you. And when you return it, you can see them deflate. And the mental error that they make right after that, it's normally net. And I'm like, this guy, I actually, I don't know what match it was, and you were talking to yourself, and you were saying stuff like,

• 25:16Chuck Nice?

  "This is what happens when you play, uh, this is what happens when you stay up all night playing Playstation." This is what hap- like, and you're talking to yourself, okay? So, he's actually chiding himself about, you know, his game, but the other guy is listening. And then you guys had like a super cool rally, and he puts something down the line, and you came over, and you kinda swatted it from behind almost. It goes back, and of course he hits it in the net, and then you're like this, you're like this.

• 25:48Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, what do you have? And you could see, you could see the opponent.

• 25:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love it. That's how I roll.

• 25:57Chuck Nice?

  What did you expect? And so you see.

• 26:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, and your point is, Chuck?

• 26:02Chuck Nice?

  But you see, you see the opponent getting kind of frustrated, getting mad. And I'm wondering, is this part of your game? Is, are you doing this? Are you screwing with these people? Or, I mean, is that part of your game?

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Well, the way you said that's actually, it actually, yeah, it actually like reminds me because, you know, when I played, when I first came on the tour, the tour and I saw like Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, all these like top professionals. And obviously, when I was a kid, I was very overweight. Um, I got told by like a lot of the coaches in Australia, my teachers even, like, people were just telling me like I wasn't going to be any good. Like, I heard that over and over and over again. And, I mean, I was winning matches and I didn't really have anything to say because I was very insecure about my weight. Like, I was, I was kind of bullied during school as well. And then, when I got on tour, I was just like, I'm playing my own style of tennis. And it's like, it's kind of like straight tennis. Like, I mean, I just grew, I grew up playing like 10 minutes at this really, really bad like facility, like five minutes from my house, basically concrete court.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  And then when I'm playing these guys, I kind of just kept it like, I, I just call it straight tennis. Like, I play drop shots, I play like very unconventional shots. And then like, when I played Djokovic, Federer, Nadal first time, and I've, I've, I've beaten Djokovic and Nadal multiple times now, like, they just tend to struggle with like tennis that's very unconventional and they don't know what to do with it. Like, if they haven't seen it before, they just kind of like, they look at their like teams in the box and the crowd and they're like, what, what is this? Like, what is this junk that I'm playing against at the moment?

• 27:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Does this mean you're mostly self-taught in that sense?

• 27:29Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I don't have a coach. I haven't had a coach for about five, like four, five years now.

• 27:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that's the answer. Because, for example, uh, you know, just to do a cross pollination here, um, in chess, um, Bobby Fischer was mostly self-taught. And he bursts out on the scene and he's making moves that nobody saw before, nobody could imagine doing. And he just came from another place. And, uh, that was part of what worked for him. And so, so does this mean then that you can create a whole new school of tennis around your innovations that no, no one knew to anticipate?

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Well, definitely, that's my goal. What I want to leave on this sport is not, nothing, I mean, obviously, I want to, you know, have great results and stuff, but, you know, I think to this day already with my following on social media and everything, my goal is just to, to inspire like the youth that, you know, been told they won't be very good, like to play a certain way, to do things a certain way, like just, I, I, I want to just tell, like, I just want them to believe that they can do it their own way, like, there's all different, everyone's different, there's different pathways to, to get to a level, like, you can do it your own way, and that's what I've done, and I've been a coach now for almost five years, and, um, you know, creating new shots that, you know, people are now playing, um, and, you know, I obviously had a couple of coaches when I was young to, you know, build my foundation, but that's, that's my goal at the moment. I just want to, you know, inspire the, the young, young people.

• 28:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, but that next generation is going to be fed analytics. They're going to know all about you, they're going to know about their own physiology, and surely tennis is going to be transformed, if not already, by this. And could there be a day where you're just going to be, you're this old fashioned guy, and he, Steve does it the old way, but now I'm being informed by the AI that's telling me about you and telling me about me.

• 29:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely. I think, I think that's going to take over the sport, and it already has, like, you, I see in the locker room people going through stats, through analytics, all that type of stuff. But I do think that it's very, I don't think sport will ever be completely, you know, taken up by analytics. I think there's always going to be some characters like myself who are going to just, you know, do it their own way and not be so worried about that type of stuff, but.

• 29:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't think it'll, it'll replace grit, the grit that you show?

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Um, I don't think so, because, you know, I'm, I'm, you're right, I think I am, I think I should have been playing with the McEnroe and stuff, because at the end of matches, I just want to go grab a beer and stuff, but these days, people are just like, they're so uptight, like, I don't know, maybe I am old fashioned, I'm not sure.

• 30:00Gary O'Reilly?

  So, you know, Nick, I listened to you, and, I mean, Chuck and I did this interview with Dave Ramos, and you're like kryptonite to these guys. Because they've got a phalanx of analysts, nutritionists, strength and conditioners, and a coach for the coach's coach. And you're going out there going, I don't have this strategy that you think I have, and they're all about taking a strategy and dismantling it so as they can win.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:26Gary O'Reilly?

  So when you come without one. You're breaking their model dude, you're breaking their algorithms.

• 30:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's messing with their head.

• 30:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, but you're not doing it in a verbal attitude way. In that sense that Chuck described, you are doing it on that level, but on this other level, you've basically gone round the back and pulled the plug out of their computer.

• 30:46Chuck Nice?

  You know why? It's because it's the anti-analitics approach.

• 30:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, alright.

• 30:51Chuck Nice?

  Because, and that's what I was talking about frustrating the players, like, you know, there are certain, certain shots that are considered, here's what I feel like in tennis is, if you, if you make a shot and the guy can't get to it, you win. Okay, so.

• 31:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you Chuck for that, thank you Chuck for that.

• 31:08Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but guess what?

• 31:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wisdom.

• 31:10Chuck Nice?

  But believe it or not, and Nick can tell me if I'm right or wrong, there are people who look at you like, oh no, no, no, that's like, small ball, or that's like, cheap, or that, like, you're not supposed to do certain things, you know? But to me, it's just about placing the ball where the other person can't get it, and that's it.

• 31:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's all it's about, really.

• 31:30Chuck Nice?

  But that's really, it's all it's about, but it, but, but there are players who are like, why don't you play me? Why don't you play me? Like, you're not, you're not playing me. And it's like, why should I play your game?

• 31:40Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 31:40Chuck Nice?

  Why should I play your game? Okay? You're saying why don't you?

• 31:44Speaker 04

  He's crazy, but he's correct, he's right.

• 31:46Chuck Nice?

  I'm, I'm telling you, this, it's, it's an, it's an insane, mental part of the game that, and, and when Nick plays, he's like, F your game.

• 31:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let me ask you a question in that line.

• 31:56Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna beat you!

• 31:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let me ask you a question in line, I've heard, I've heard tennis analogized to chess, where you make a move, you set up the next move, the person has to go to a different part of the court, then comes a winning shot.

• 32:10Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 32:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That requires strategy. You're not thinking every shot in that moment, you're thinking every shot in anticipation of shots that follow. So, what happens if I watch enough videos of you, and I get informed by my computer that this is a rhythm that you take, and then I disrupt your rhythm because I know what you're gonna do in advance? Are you nimble enough to change it up in that spot?

• 32:37Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, hundred percent. Um, I I I mean, my game, I think everyone in everyone in the top hundred or anyone on tour knows that the the the simple way to beat me is either to let my let myself be beat me, like me be myself, or because I'm so unpredictable, every point's different. My patterns are so different. I mean, I I don't even. It's as simple as way to put it is, I just try and I just try and. My motto is always, I serve big and I play big and I just try and keep everything on my racket. I try and hit the ball where I think they're not gonna be able to get it. Like, that's as simple as I have no patterns, really. Like, I don't really, um.

• 33:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You remind me of what they said about Babe Ruth, to all these modern players, they're like, have these big muscle regimens, so they can sit, hit seven hundred home runs. And Babe Ruth hit seven home runs on beer and hot dogs. That was his strategy.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  My mindset might seem a little careless, but like, I mean, I I I care a lot about it. It's just my my my approach to it. Like, I mean, I I watch basketball guys, like, you know how they come into games like with like different style with fashion, you can see their personality. Like, I'm I'm one of the only guys that will walk around tennis courts with like hoodies on, like Jordan ones. Like, I don't know, I just kind of want to be.

• 33:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, what'll it take, what'll it take to get your ass into the top ten?

• 33:52Gary O'Reilly?

  You nearly did it, didn't you? You were thirteen.

• 33:54Speaker 04

  I was, I was, I was thirteen and I didn't really have, I didn't have a coach. I won three titles in one year. I was playing well, but I've always lacked consistency. Like, I mean, I think a lot, some of the top players, most, every top player in the top ten, like, they can work hard every single day. Um, and, you know, they dedicate every small little tiny bit of their life, diet, stretching, like, I haven't stretched a body part in about, on probably in about eight years.

• 34:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Now you, now you sound like me.

• 34:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love it.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  My professionalism and like my consistency is, is def, it's got, like, it's got a lot of room for improvement, but that's like, that's just what you're gonna get. Like, that's, you know, you're gonna have ups and downs, but like, that's, I've just learned to accept that, really.

• 34:39Gary O'Reilly?

  What if you did? What if you said, you know what, I'll have that stretch. I'll go and I'll go and load up some A I and I'll think not about maybe my opponents, but maybe about my own game.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you might have to do that as in as the twilight years come. You have to be a little, you know, smarter about it rather than more physical. You might have to rely on that.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, but, um.

• 35:00Speaker 04

  I don't know, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

• 35:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I heard it was like, it was like, yeah, but not now. Not now. Let's push back.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  My mindset is, at the end of the day, it's tennis. Like, I'm not gonna, it's not something I'm just gonna stress over. Like, life's beautiful, there's so many, like, you know what I mean? Like, I am, I'm blessed to be where I am. I play tennis at a very high level. I do it my way. And, you know, I'm not gonna, I think, I'm not gonna dedicate my entire life to just this sport. You know, I've got other things going on and that's it.

• 35:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guys, we've got to take a quick break. And Nick, if you can hang out with us, we'd love to chew the fat with you in our third segment. That's what we like to do. So can you hang for a bit? Okay.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  Definitely. I'm not going anywhere.

• 35:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, excellent. This is StarTalk Sports Edition, Revolutionizing Tennis. We'll be right back.

• 36:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk Sports Edition. Chuck Nice. Hey. Gary O'Reilly. Hey, hey, hey. All right. So Nick Kyrgios is gonna stay with us as we chew the fat. Thank you, Nick, for hanging on. And so let me just ask, we were devoting this show to trying to understand what role analytics plays and when a tennis player can kick another ass, kick the ass of another tennis player. And you're just, you... You broke that.

• 36:46Chuck Nice?

  Just crumbling that, just crushing that whole concept.

• 36:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The whole thing.

• 36:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I tend to go against the grain.

• 36:54Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but you know what? I call, like I said, when we first started, I call it in-game analytics. You know what I mean? I think that what Nick is doing is he's processing the analytics on a like play-to-play basis, point-to-point. He's figuring out what's going on in situ and figuring out what he has to do to make something happen. And I mean, you know, we call that improvisation if you're on stage as a comic or a jazz artist. But you know, I think that's what he's doing. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, man.

• 37:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're saying Nick is the jazz artist of tennis? I like that.

• 37:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I like, that's what I'm, yeah. I would, I would, that's how I would describe it. It's more like jazz. It's like, you know what, you know what the bassline is, you know what the melody is, right? But then all of a sudden, if you're in sync, and it only works when you're in sync, if you're in sync, it's just like, okay, I'm gonna go off on this little like phrasing here. I'm gonna add something here. I'm gonna do something different here. And you come up like with a completely different song right in the moment. You wrote a song in the moment, and it's pretty cool. Yep.

• 37:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, he agrees.

• 38:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Man. I don't, I don't know an athlete.

• 38:04Chuck Nice?

  I'm next to no attorney. I was like, yeah. I just say stuff, he'll be like, yeah.

• 38:10Gary O'Reilly?

  So I mean, there's no athlete ever gonna take that away, Chuck. They're gonna embrace that. See, the thing is, the other, from my point of view as a former athlete, in brackets, Neil, if you imagine AI has, every tennis player has access to AI in the top 50, right? Then if you have car designs designed by computer, they all generally look the same. It's when this player, this car comes along, it's exotic, it's different. That's the thing you remember. That's the thing that stands out. You'll have a lot of players whose game is gonna be based on very similar lines. Nick's is that standout. It's that point. So when they zig, he zags. When they zag, he zigs.

• 38:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, but here's the thing.

• 38:52Gary O'Reilly?

  He's always on a different cusp.

• 38:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Here's the thing. Okay, I think people are under, under recognizing what AI can actually do. So, so what, AI is not just a better version of what we would do. If in its full form, it is thinking in ways we have never thought.

• 39:10Chuck Nice?

  No, that's true.

• 39:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, just to give an example. The world of juggling, right? You know, there, how many ways can you juggle three balls? Right? There's, you know, there's two or three ways you do this. They gave that to a computer. This is even before AI was on the table. So she gave that to a computer with it. It says, "Find us every way that works." A whole new juggling sequence came out that nobody thought of before.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I think it's the way it's done is the, is like the, the, the most important thing. Like the personality is gone if it's AI. I think it's not, it's not really going to be fun to watch.

• 39:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, but suppo- well, no, because, because AI could have more personality than you and say, it analyzed what you've done and said, "That's pretty inventive. This inventive. Here's another inventive one that you hadn't thought of." No, you didn't think about.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, what does it look like? What does it look like?

• 40:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know. This AI figured that out.

• 40:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't be embarrassed by doing some AI told you to do that you could have done better. That's what you're saying.

• 40:10Gary O'Reilly?

  I ain't gonna have swag, Neil.

• 40:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ain't gonna have swag, AI. Just program it that way. Up the swag factor.

• 40:19Chuck Nice?

  So Nick, how does that, how's that, how does that play into your existence with, you know, the sanctioning body, with other players and, you know, your life? The fact that you are more like a baller than you are a tennis player, you know, you, you, the, the, the way you carry yourself. I think it's a good thing. I think you're going to bring a lot of people to tennis and I think that they know that. I think that they look at you and they'll never tell you this because you're unconventional. And so if, if, if I'm a sanctioning body, I can't condone unconventionalism. I just can't. I can't.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're spot on.

• 41:01Chuck Nice?

  But what I do know is this, it's good. It's good for my business.

• 41:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yep.

• 41:07Chuck Nice?

  It's good. I know one thing, when you're on the exhibition courts, right? I've never seen no stands more filled up, right?

• 41:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and not only that, I mean, I, I'm old enough to remember in real time, watching McEnroe. No one would condone anything he said or did, but you watched the game.

• 41:25Chuck Nice?

  And they loved it.

• 41:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To see what he was going to do next.

• 41:27Chuck Nice?

  And they loved it.

• 41:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Chuck Nice?

  The, yeah, the love, they, UST, they loved it.

• 41:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not to analyze, analogize you to him. I'm just saying it's an example to just what Chuck is talking about, where you're, you're, you're too unorthodox to be.

• 41:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Endorsed by the agency.

• 41:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But secretly behind closed doors.

• 41:48Chuck Nice?

  They're like, oh, this is great.

• 41:49Gary O'Reilly?

  You're just what they need.

• 41:51Chuck Nice?

  Speaking of McEnroe, what do you think of what he said just about you a little while ago?

• 41:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What was that?

• 41:57Chuck Nice?

  Uh, he was like.

• 41:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you trying to start a fight?

• 41:59Chuck Nice?

  No, man, I didn't say it. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. McEnroe said it, okay? Don't get mad at me. I'm just bringing it up, okay? I'll, you know what I mean?

• 42:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, what did he say? What did he say?

• 42:10Chuck Nice?

  As far as I'm concerned, he's old and, and, and he can't play tennis anymore. So, you know, I mean, you know, Nick could very easily be like, have a coconut smile and shut the F up.

• 42:23Chuck Nice?

  Like, Nick could easily say that. So, but anyway, here's what happened. Um, McEnroe was critical of Nick, uh, uh, for about some, some on-court, uh, comments and behavior. But then he turned around and he was like, look, this guy is super talented. This guy has everything it takes. If he really wants to be serious, then he should get serious. If not, he should go do something else.

• 42:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whoa.

• 42:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, those are big starts. Those are big words. Those are big words.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I, I actually, I'm actually close with John because we play Labor Cup. It's Team World versus Team Europe. Every year we have like a, it's like a Ryder Cup for golf.

• 42:59Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  And, um.

• 43:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's that one called? It's the.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  The Labor Cup.

• 43:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Labor Cup. Interesting. Okay.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm familiar with that. Team World versus Team Europe?

• 43:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. So Team Europe's got Novak, Federer, Nadal, like, they've got like, they're like an all-star lineup. And then Team World, um, it's basically just me and, and some Americans. And, um.

• 43:23Gary O'Reilly?

  I don't get too many people on my side. I like that.

• 43:26Chuck Nice?

  Damn. It's like, it's like Marvel versus DC.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  And then, um, and then, like, he's our captain. And once he didn't know me, like, once we met each other, we literally like bonded like crazy. Like, we're actually great friends now. And then when he realized that I'm actually crazier than him, he's kind of just given up. Like, he's given up. Like, he tried to, he tried to, like, give me some advice. And then, like, when he really just met me and just like how I was and just like, he just knew that like no, no comment or anything he said was going to actually influence anything I did. Like, it just had to come from within him. And then he just, now we just, now, every time he talks to me after we finish, he literally just like, let's just grab a beer or something. Like, that's what it is. That's the chat now. It's nothing like tennis. So it's, and that's, and that's the way I prefer it, to be honest, like. I I I understand that just like people are different, they're gonna go about it different ways.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Like, that's just how it is.

• 44:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  You can't make someone do something they don't wanna do, ever.

• 44:20Chuck Nice?

  Right, absolutely. So let me ask you this then, let me ask you this. Uh, is there anything he's ever said that you would just like, yo, right on? Okay, you got, you got to me, man. You got to me. Is there anything that, that he ever said that did that to you?

• 44:36Speaker 04

  I mean, everything he told me, like, I know that I need more consistency. I need to take maybe training a bit more seriously or recovery a bit more seriously. Everything he said, I've kinda, I kinda know. Like, they're just highlighting it again, but, um. I mean, when he talked to me about my behavior, I was like, John, like, if you lived in today's day and age with social media, like, you going out partying, like, people on their phones videoing, like, you would have been horrendous in this day and age. I was like, you cannot talk to me about your behavior, like, you cannot. And then he's like, you're right, you're right, you're right. And I'm like, I'm like, you can't talk to me about my behavior because of what you were doing. But like, you got defaulted once for, for breaking every racket. You couldn't actually, you didn't have no more rackets to play with. Like, how are you gonna tell me about behavior? Like, do you know what I mean? So.

• 45:19Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  I mean, like, I'm willing to give it back. Like, I, look, I can take it. I take it every day of my life. Like, I wake up, I go online, I see negative comments. Like, I've, I've grown up just like getting hammered, hammered with negative comments. So I can take it and I can dish it out like you would not believe. That's why, like, when, like, these tennis players come to me with, like, controversy and, like, on Twitter, like, I like rub my, I rub my hands because, like, I'm just ready to go to war.

• 45:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, so that brings up a very important point. So in terms of the head game that goes on, you know, if half of, if half of a game of tennis is your talent and the other half is, it, like, as, as Gary let off, um, describing, you know, in the old days, we call it psyching someone out. Um, is it possible that someone could, uh, perturb you, uh, rather strategically in a Twitter thread, knowing you're reading it? And now you're a little bit flustered for your next game? Or are you above all of that?

• 46:14Speaker 04

  Nah, I'm like, I don't need to joke.

• 46:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Does it feed you? Does that make you better?

• 46:20Speaker 04

  Like, you don't understand how much I love this like topic, like of just like going out there and just getting in someone's head, like, I love it. Like, I just do this, I just do like, for instance, when we change ends, so tennis is, I love, the thing I love about tennis, like you change ends every two games, right? You cross ends and then like, I just like look at my opponent every time, like I'll just look at him and see how he's like, if he's looking anywhere, if he's looking at me like. But every, everything, everything I've noticed over the last like couple of years, like every time I cross ends, the opponent's always looking at what I'm doing, like always. So straight away, I know that like, I'm in, I'm in their head, because they're thinking externally now, they're not even thinking about how they're feeling, they're just looking at what I'm doing. How I'm doing it, if I'm talking to myself, self-commenting, or just like playing with the crowd, high-fiving the crowd, like, I'm, I'm already one like half a battle. So now if I just focus on my game, they're, they're, they're in trouble.

• 47:04Gary O'Reilly?

  How much of what you do is reading a tell on an opponent? Do you bother to do that? Because it seems like you are, you are happy being you, and I respect that totally. But do you get into the, okay, this is gonna come now? Do you actually read it at that detail, that level?

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Um, I'm, I'm not, I mean, like, the, the thing about tennis that where you can get, you can get away with, you know, maybe just like having a comment here or there, or not even like focusing for a point or two, the scoring system like, it helps you a lot. So, you know, I've got a really good serve, so if I'm holding my serve every time, you know, I'm, I'm giving myself a very good chance to win the set. But the scoring system helps me a lot in the fact where I could just throw a game on their service games, like I could just completely not even try to return a serve. And then all of a sudden, they're thinking, what the hell is this guy doing? Like, this is not, we're professionals, like, he's not supposed to be doing this. And then I hold my serve, and then the next game, they're like, oh, he's probably not even gonna like bother to return my serve.

• 48:03Speaker 04

  And then I win the first couple of points on their serve, and then they're freaking out, they're complaining to their, their team, saying, this guy's, what is this? Like, this is ridiculous. And then.

• 48:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're messing with their heads dude, you're totally messing with them.

• 48:15Speaker 04

  And I don't know if AI, I don't know if AI will ever be able to like.

• 48:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mess with people's heads that way.

• 48:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Do you know what Neil, Neil, you remember Chuck, you'll remember this, we interviewed Ron Darling. Remember him, the four series winning pitcher? He told us during the course of a regular season, he would face a certain batter. Knowing they're probably going to face up to them in the, in the playoffs at some point. He said, I would throw him junk. I would throw him absolute garbage. And when we came to the playoffs, he'd be thinking he'd be getting the same stuff served up. And then he'd just.

• 48:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then he'd smoke them.

• 48:48Gary O'Reilly?

  He'd trash him, absolutely. So Nick, Nick's treading, maybe not a well trodden path, but a path that is. In the, yeah, very similar.

• 48:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so let me confess that probably that's the last thing AI will ever know how to do.

• 49:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Mind you, if it's listening, it's probably already worked it out.

• 49:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guys, we got to bring this to a close here.

• 49:11Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 49:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nick, it's been really great having you.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  I appreciate it guys, you're so much fun.

• 49:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just getting inside, inside sort of the anatomy of tennis in general, and especially inside your tennis.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was about to say, this is not the general tennis.

• 49:26Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, no.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  You're talking to a strange cat.

• 49:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, definitely, definitely.

• 49:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, we like that.

• 49:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, good to have you, Chuck, as always. Always a pleasure. So we got, we've got to wrap it up there. Nick, thanks for being on this, on StarTalk. Delighted to have you get your insights, not only to the sport, but into yourself. Which was quite.

• 49:46Speaker 04

  No worries, I love it.

• 49:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent, excellent. Gary, always good to have you Chuck. Thank you, always a pleasure. Always there, I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, bidding you to keep looking up.