Reporting on Science (Part 2) – extended with Elise Andrew of IFLS and Bill Nye

Neil deGrasse Tyson and veteran science journalist Miles O’Brien discuss the conflict between journalism and corporate America. Plus, a new interview about science deniers with Elise Andrew and Bill Nye.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. Or at least, that's what I think I am. Maybe you have other astrophysicists. I don't know. I've got Chuck Nice in studio with me. Hey Neil. Always great to have you back. Always good to be here. This is part two of the interview we started earlier with science journalism. That's right. And you now know one science journalist. Yes, I do.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  His name is? Miles O'Brien. There you go. Who I like to call Ballsy O'Brien. Ballsy O'Brien because he majored in history. Majored in history. Busted into the CNN offices many years ago, said, "I want to be your science journalist." And didn't know anything about science. Pulled it off. That's right. Pulled it off really... That is chutzpah, baby. Really well. Well, I caught up with him with my roving micro... I mean, I couldn't... I saw him in Washington. I mean, we're friends from way back. I saw him in Washington, so I want to get him on StarTalk. And we didn't have time or schedule to fly him back here to New York. I got him on the spot. And so, we duck for cover in this flood conduit. [laughing] We'll call this conduit acoustics. An underpass. An underpass. We're at a highway underpass with Miles.

• 1:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where's the quietest place in this intersection? [laughing] So, in this interview, I asked him about many things, of course, but just accuracy in journalism. Do you people care that you're accurate? I'm ready to slap the man. Let's find out what he says. Tell me about accuracy in journalism.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Such a quaint notion. [laughing] Me lad.

• 1:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Old fashioned.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I remember the times when we actually had facts and checked them.

• 2:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I've spoken with journalists. Yeah. Who, because of some journalistic ethos, they would not show me the text they were writing that came out of the interview that we conducted, out of some premise that they worried that I might influence it. Then I said, "Well, do you care about being right?" Right. And they said, "Oh, yes, above all else." And I said, "Well, if I don't see it, how do I know you interpreted it right? And now there's a chance you'll be wrong." Right. So, what's your bigger ethos? Being right, or having the person you just interviewed take a look at what you just created?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  I always err on the side of being right. But I, I'm not the average journalist. There is an old fashioned notion that if you show people your copy in advance, somehow, some way, they will either try to get it blocked, or will try to manage you in such a way that they change it. Well, if they're managing you in such a way that they change it to make it more accurate, that is actually a good thing. Reporters have got to get over this stubborn sense of, "That's what I heard. God darn it, I know that's what I heard." We're all human beings and we all misinterpret. And especially in the line of work I do where it's very complicated at times. And I'm the history major. I will surrender every time to concerns about that. I generally don't send an email with my script, but I'll go through it.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  If I said this, is that right? Or I'll send a little passage that I'm stuck on. I've written it this way. Does this make any sense? And it almost always works out to the better. But there is a whole journalistic convention that this flies in the face of, and I suspect I'll hear from people who say you're a Satan of a journalist for doing that. But you know what? Think about how scientists go through peer review.

• 3:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that's, that's all it is.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I really started thinking about this journalistic notion of these sacred words which must be published, and everybody sees it at the same time, including your sources, when I started really fully understanding what peer review was all about, and how that does a lot to keep integrity in science. I think journalists would be wise to embrace this.

• 4:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Peer review journalism.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  That sounds good.

• 4:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Interesting concept.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I, I like it.

• 4:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, because they can be so tight about, "And I wrote it. This is the truth. This is what it will be." And people, and sometimes they can define a truth that isn't true, but everyone reads it and it's in print, or it's journalistic, and so therefore it must be true.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, but nowadays, you know what I have? I, I got my, like, my Twitter stream. If somebody says something that's not true, I just say, "Nope, they messed that up."

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then I, and I can come back at it, right? But there was a day you couldn't even do that.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  No, absolutely.

• 4:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right. But you know, accuracy in journalism, that leads to, what's the, what's this phrase? "Is it fair and balanced?"

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 4:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had to ask Miles, what's this fair and balanced movement that we've been hearing about? Let's check it out.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Some stories have one side that is represented by, say, 95% of the scientific community of the world. Is it fair, in a story about climate change, which I'm obviously talking about, to do this classic journalistic convention of equal time for both sides? This is a huge mistake, I think, for journalists.

• 5:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you get 95%, and then there's the 5%, so you get a person from that 5%. Now you get 50% of your time.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Is that serving the truth? I would submit to you, not. As a matter of fact, that is feeding obfuscation. That is actually perpetuating a myth, dare I say, a lie. And so for journalists who are hung up on this idea, "Well, we gotta go out and get the guy from the Cato Institute to balance out all this global warming stuff," I fought long and hard. I did an hour-long documentary for CNN back in the mid-'90s, and it was about 90-10, basically saying, "The scientific jury is in here." That was the word I used.

• 5:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not out, it's in, yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's in.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  It's in. There's no more scientific debate. There's a political debate, there's a debate over, you know, money, over how we should spend it, what we should do, but there's no scientific debate, okay? Let's just get over that. And this caused a... Remember, I'm talking to these science-phobic, poli-sci guys in the newsroom who don't really follow this the way we do, and they thought it was just a journalistic aberration. How could you write a piece this way? Where's the other side? And I started sending them papers, and I started going through things and trying to explain to them where the science really was, and where the peer-reviewed science was, where the fossil fuel industry, and I'm using the, finger quotes, "science" was at the time.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  And I managed to convince them. It didn't end up 90-10, but I got to probably about 75-25, which I considered a victory at the time, because that was big for them. It was hard for them to wrap their heads around this. This was not journalism, in their view. This was advocacy. But I managed to at least move the needle and get them to the idea that doing 50-50 on this is not accurate.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  You know, you have to fight that battle. It requires doing your homework and understanding a lot of nuance. And those are two things that TV reporters do very little of.

• 7:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So he's totally, totally getting on the case of all his colleagues. I wonder how they, what they think of him.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? I'm so glad to hear somebody actually say this because that 50/50 argument is stupid. It's like four out of five dentists recommend brushing. The fifth dentist, he actually works for the National Sugar Council.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  You know, come on, let's, you know, do some homework and find out who are these scientists that are saying that this isn't the case.

• 7:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right, right. And so, so this, this concept of fair and balance implies that everything is a 50/50 or even that there are always two sides to a story. There could be three, four, or five, or six.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. So, so it's, it's an odd ethos that they've put themselves in. I think maybe it's because journalists historically would report on politics and religion and all these other social, cultural factors where you always had warring factions and so you gotta give everybody time.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 7:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, when we come back, more of my interview with Miles O'Brien.

• 8:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk Radio. Chuck Nice, right here with me.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 8:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At Chuck Nice Comic.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  That is correct.

• 8:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cool. So, so Chuck, we're talking about science journalism, you know, and do they do it right? Do they do it bad? I got my interview with Miles O'Brien. I caught up with him in Washington. Miles O'Brien, the leading science journalist of our times.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  And the only one that I know.

• 8:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You gotta get out more, man. I don't know where you hang out, but we, we, we gotta work on you. I'll give you a list of places to visit and shows to watch. Uh, I always wondered, you know, in the old days, you would send your story back in via telegraph or something, you know? They're invading over the border. Stop. You know, and they're coming, it's beginning to rain. Stop. Right. And so now, obviously, everything is instant and, and it's, I'm, I've always been intrigued by all the ways technology has affected science reporting or reporting in general. And so I asked him about it because he's old enough to have been there in the old days and then in the new days.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Good evening, Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea. I got it.

• 9:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mr. Newsreel.

• 9:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was your first job back in 1938. You were a newsreel reporter. That's right. So, let's find, let's get Miles's reflections on this topic. Go.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  CNN was chicken noodle news until which night? Do you remember? Oh, of course. Well, it was Gulf War. Thank you. The first Gulf War. And if you really think about what happened that night... I saw the plots of CNN's audience. Oh, yeah, you've seen that. Yeah, yeah. It matches the world event. They hate that graph because they'd like to figure out how to fill the gaps. Because it's all... I mean, there isn't a war. Yeah. They either manufacture wars or, you know, Anderson, what's going on, Ann? Come on. Right. Talk to me. So, anyway, that night, if you really want to know how CNN won that night, it was technology. It was a young producer by the name of Easton Jordan who had the foresight to buy a dedicated line, audio line, into Baghdad, back to Jordan. And that is the only reason CNN was on the map was because of that one line.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Nobody else had done that. Nobody else guaranteed transmission. Most people think, well, I watched that on TV. Actually, you didn't watch that on TV that night. It was all audio. It was just a phone call. Later, you saw the footage come. We had the boys from Baghdad. Peter Arnett, John Holloman. The late John Holloman. Yeah, the late John Holloman. And Bernard Shaw. And most people don't remember who was there or whether they saw it on TV or heard it, but they just know that it happened. So, that was a long way of saying that CNN has always had its core embracing technology to get the story done. So, while I was there, I was schooled in a lot of this by some of the best in the business who were always looking at new, different ways to get signals back from remote places. And as time went on, those big live trucks were shrinking.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Pretty soon, it was, you know, a suitcase. And pretty soon, it was a Mac attached to a phone. And it's getting to be Dick Tracy time pretty quickly, right? And I know as a comic book hero, you understand what I'm talking about. Only of late. Yeah. I've been in a Superman comic, yes. So when I was summarily dismissed along with the rest of the science and technology unit, because after all, what do we know about the Kardashians, right? So the entire unit disbanded from CNN, gone, we pink slipped. I was really crestfallen because I thought, certainly it's bad for me, but I figured I'd figure out some way to make a living. But really, I actually do care about making people understand how important all this is that I cover. I really do. It means a lot to me and I think it's so important for our nation and everything else. So I was really upset about that.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  And then I realized, I don't need no stinking truck. I don't need no Time Warner Center. I don't need all that stuff. You got fired at just the right time. I did. Technology's waiting for you to be your own one-man newsbag. You know, remember way back when on Saturday Night Live with Al Franken? He had the satellite hat. Yeah, remember that? It's classic. Anyway, so I was fired and frankly, I just did not want to miss a shuttle launch. That's what it boiled down to. So I called my friends at Spaceflight Now, Stephen Young, and I said, "Do you have an internet connection?" Can you find out the internet site that tracks every single launch? Right, they have a great, space nerds love this site. And I say "space nerd" as being one of them. I don't say that as pejorative at all. On this show, nerd is a compliment, a badge of honor. Thank you, thank you, of course. Anyway, so I said, I mean, "What's your internet connection like there?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  I'll bring down my Mac and a DV camera and we'll just stream out coverage and that way I won't miss a launch." So we started doing this and it got progressively a little more complicated. We do a three-camera shoot, but basically, we were doing it for the cost of the travel down to Florida and the T-1 line to the Cape, to the launch pad 39. It was no money at all. Toward the end, we did seven or eight launches this way and we would do six eight-hour-length webcasts. You were on them. It was great for a guy like me who loves space to have six or eight hours to just keep talking. Plus, everybody's there. And they're all there and they all come in and... And we all love you, so we'll talk a couple of minutes out with you. And then people were tweeting back questions. It was fantastic. And toward the end, we were getting a couple, 300,000 people watching the world over. Now, it's not a huge thing, but we weren't spending any money.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  We were just there with our little Mac. And so I realized suddenly that we are in the boutique age of journalism. I mean, if CNN is the department store or the Walmart, and think about what that does to quality, there is room for a Madison Avenue boutique still, right? For people who care about things that are specific to them. And they will seek you out. They will find you. They'll find you. They will find you. Build it, they will come. And you have learned this by the way you tweet, by the way you use all the tools out there. You really can do it on your own. I used to think, well, it's just gonna be this group of already interested folk. But the truth is, that shows you have no appreciation for what social networking is all about.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  There is an exponential nature to it that is just infused in it. And yes, you might have this core that begins with you, but inevitably, it gets bigger. You've probably seen this study. Pew did a survey. They asked people, "What's the thing you care most about that you see the least of in the mainstream media?" Answer: "Science." Science. So, you and I know that there's an audience out there. The mainstream media has decided, for whatever reason, they're scared of it, it's too complicated, it's too expensive to cover it, I can just throw people in here in a studio and have them yap about the election, whatever. Maybe they're still burned from their science classes. Could be. You were never wounded because you never had science. I think that there is much work to be done, admittedly.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  But there are avenues for those of us who care about this, to share our knowledge and passion and interest, that lead me to believe not all is lost.

• 14:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so he's liking the technology. But we've both seen technology taken a little too far.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it can go awry.

• 14:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, I saw, what was it, CNN where they had a hologram of-

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yes, Wolf Blitzer's hologram. Which now is not just Wolf Blitzer using the hologram.

• 14:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is everybody-

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Not everybody, but they're like, you know, they're using it for specific stories.

• 15:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, if I remember the story correctly, in 2008, during the presidential election returns, Wolf Blitzer brought in via hologram Jessica Yellen, a reporter, and we see her floating in the middle of the space. So apparently, it wasn't an actual physics hologram, because he would have seen it. It was only, it was put into that space for we, the viewers. And she was three dimensionally photographed image, teleported, put here on our screen. But why does anyone want to see all sides of a reporter?

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 15:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't get, I don't-

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Who cares? Who needs a three dimensional reporter in a two dimensional medium? That makes no sense whatsoever.

• 15:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You could just have her pirouette while she's speaking.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 15:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you get the three all sides of her.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I didn't understand that. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe we should applaud it for the experiment. Cause you gotta step in new places to see what works. Maybe that's what.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  See, the experiment would be, I'm sitting in my living room and Wolf Blitzer shows up in my living room as a hologram. That's cool, but you know, watching it on TV.

• 16:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Watching a 3D hologram on your 2D.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  That's stupid.

• 16:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On your two dimensional projector.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  And the fact that she kept saying, "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope", really got on my nerves. It just.

• 16:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Star Wars, Episode 4.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 16:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right. So, yeah, so technology, it can always be overused and I think you need time to have it sort out. Do you remember when CDs first came out?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay? It could capture so many different channels of music with such accuracy, the early CDs went overboard. And they just piled on all instruments and all, and they had the stereo running back and forth, ear to ear, and they were.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  They called it overproducing.

• 16:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, there's a phrase for it, okay, yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  It was overproduce.

• 16:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then, maybe you had to go there to fill out the space and then pull back on it, you know? And so, what you really need the technology for is if you're gonna go to Mars and like, like he said in the first of these two interviews with Miles O'Brien, he, he wants to report back from Mars. They're gonna need some technology, right?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And a breathing apparatus.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Not to mention a Motel 6, or something along those lines. Cause I hear there's not a lot up there.

• 17:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you'd have to like terraform Mars first or something. And so, uh, so no, technology is good and if you can get news faster, but maybe you don't need any more technology now that we have Twitter, because somebody's eyewitnessing every news event in the world.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  I was just about to say that, you being a, a big presence on Twitter. I mean, you know, we had the whole Arab Spring and it happened pretty much on Twitter.

• 17:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Happened on Twitter. And it's nothing a reporter's gonna tell me that is not, that's better information than people actually live in it.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  In real time.

• 17:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In real time. What, what are you gonna do to that story that's gonna improve it?

• 17:44Speaker 02

  That, right, exactly.

• 17:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right. And it happens when, when there's earthquakes, you get instant. Accurate reporting on when people felt it, what time it happened.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And each tweet is time stamped.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Exactly. So you know exactly when it happened, how it happened, where it happened. And then I am happy that I'm here.

• 18:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And alive. Sending out the tweet in the first place. When we come back, more of my interview with science journalist Miles O'Brien.

• 18:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here, Chuck Nice, sitting across from me.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 18:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're in studio, New York City, and we're slotting clips from my interview with Miles O'Brien, science journalist extraordinaire. And I had caught up with him in Washington to get this interview. And we were talking about everything. I mean, he's been around long enough.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's got a story about everything. And I finally had to ask him about, you know, nowadays, news, there are news sources that are just aggregators, right? They don't actually have their own reporters. They just pick and choose.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  True.

• 18:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's an interesting, you know, I mean, Huffington Post is largely that.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Right. And Drudge, a Drudge reporter.

• 18:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Drudge Report, yeah. And so what would happen if everybody were an aggregator? Then no one would actually be getting any news. They'd be aggregating each other's aggregations. But let's see what Miles's reaction is to this.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Well, that's, somebody's gonna have to go to the city council meeting, right? I mean, somebody's gotta show up for the launch. Somebody's gotta be there. I mean, we can aggregate all we want, but we're running out of actual primary news gathering instruments here, right?

• 19:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then it gets repeated that many times because it only has one source. And then everyone thinks it's that much more true.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it shows up in more places.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and you can be reading in the midst of Hurricane Sandy, making stuff up from whole cloth about the stock exchange being flooded, and it gets on TV! Because this is where it's all come to. We don't have reporters there anymore.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  We don't bother with that. Silly. We can just read the tweets. So, yes, it's a big problem. However, when you think about journalism, you can almost always say the goals of true journalism will be an anathema, dare I say mutually exclusive to the the goals of corporate America. There will always be a conflict there because if journalism's job is to poke questions at the status quo and the establishment, what is corporate America but the ultimate embodiment of the establishment? So, there was a time when the networks, there were three of them, right? And they had the fairness doctrine and they were worried about the FCC and news was a lost leader.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And they had unlimited budgets and the ability to give us people like Cronkite and Murrow and great television journalism.

• 20:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And have bureaus in all these cities around the world.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  There was not a money motive. And then, things changed. Fairness doctrine went away, the cable began, there was much more competition. Suddenly, the news divisions had to...

• 20:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Be entertainment.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Well, they had to make money, so therefore they had to be entertainment, right? They had to make their own way. And that was the beginning of the end for serious journalism, in my view. And if you really look at it, there are two kinds of truly successful journalistic endeavors. There are family-owned enterprises. The Times. Newspapers, the few that are left, that are run by families in communities. This is actually how Ted viewed CNN. There was an element of cocktail party braggadociousness that goes into this, right? You want to be the upstanding citizen and the pillar of the community and whatever the case may be. You're not in it just to make a buck, right? Then there are the outright nonprofits now, like the Poynter Institute, which runs the

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Tampa Bay Times in Florida, or places like ProPublica or the Center for Public Integrity that are actually doing true journalism funded out of the goodness of people's hearts. That's where the journalism lies. When you get into corporate ownership, a big chains of newspapers and TV, you don't see a lot of good journalism. You really don't. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

• 21:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And all the three networks are owned by corporate interests, right?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 21:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, ABC is Disney?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right? NBC is GE?

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Now Comcast or...

• 22:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, okay.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, GE, Comcast, whatever they are.

• 22:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  CBS is what?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Well, CBS is Viacom. So, there is hope for journalism. It's just journalism doesn't fit well into the corporate business model. And so maybe we're evolving, we're in the middle, but you don't believe in evolution, right? Maybe we've had some intelligent design into a new era where journalism is fashion of these entities who, going back to that, it fits in with my boutique idea.

• 22:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, boutique journalism, journalists not, I mean, imagine a story comes up that is really bad for Disney. What will ABC do with that story? You wonder.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  I got a feeling that, um, uh, Mickey is not talking about it.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mickey's.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Mickey's silent.

• 22:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mickey's, uh, had not been available for, for comment on the story.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Mickey's not available for comment.

• 22:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, on a few years ago, Peter Jennings did a round the world New Year's Eve program where they had reporters in every time zone, which I thought was, it was cute. It was a little slow, but I applaud the experiment. And they invited me in right at the time that scientists at the South Pole moved the location of the pole. Um, and that freaked people out, said, what, what's going on with Earth's rotation? Someone had, I had to explain that their glaciers moving and this pole that's stuck in ice is moving with the moving glacier. So, so you have to realign it to the actual rotation axis of the earth. But, fine. But in there, Peter Jennings, he's smooth and he says, um, I wonder how they're celebrating, uh, New Year's Eve in Disney World.

• 23:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's check it out there. And so it's a Disney World is an icon of America.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 23:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're going to, but I thought, why didn't he go to Universal? Why? And then I was reminded, oh.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 23:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Disney owns ABC. But I'm thinking I was duped by that little smooth move of his. He should have said, oh, by the way, they own us, so we have to go there.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To tell this story. You know, I was, I was taken in at that brief second, thinking that there was something honestly genuine about going to Disney World for that, for that story. But yeah, I mean, and that's, who cares about a New Year's Eve? We're talking about real stories and what, what's the future of news if corporations are going to own it? More of my interview with Miles O'Brien, science reporter extraordinaire, when we get back.

• 24:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's Dark Talk Radio, Tyson here. Nice on the other side of the table.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  That is correct.

• 24:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck Nice, they call.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  That was very fun.

• 24:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm Nice, Chuck Nice.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Chuck Nice.

• 24:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I like my chicken baked, not fried.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Because if you weren't black, I'd be like, why's it gotta be chicken?

• 25:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so here's the thing. When you, when, how soon do you know when you want to be a reporter? That's a que, you know, how do, when does that happen?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I ask myself, and of course, I ask that of Miles O'Brien. And I wonder for you, when did you know you wanted to be a comedian? Was it the teacher saying, what are you, a comedian?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  You got it. Pretty much every comedian, I think, has that same experience.

• 25:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Same experience. So what great, that happened in like, elementary school.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Elementary school, when you get in trouble for trying to be funny, that's, and but...

• 25:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that's counted as something bad.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not that you can make a boatload of money doing that later on in life.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  No, it's just awful, and it just gets your life into complete peril. But you're like, I can't wait to do this again.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  That's when you know.

• 25:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's when you know you're on to something.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  You're on to something.

• 25:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, so you knew early. Let's find out about Miles, how soon he knew he wanted to, how early he wanted to know he would be a journalist.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I remember wanting to be a reporter, you know, just watching the old Al Primo-style eyewitness newscasts in Detroit in the seventies, and just thinking that was the coolest possible job. But at that time, in Detroit, not knowing anybody who ever did it, assumed it was out of reach. Because I couldn't even go to anybody and say, how do you do that? Those people could have come in from another planet.

• 26:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Plus, who knows anyone who's a reporter? It's not a common trait, when you think about it.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  It isn't a common trait, and especially when you're in Detroit, in a, you know, automobile town. It's not a town that celebrates the media, right? So, I didn't see it as a job. So I went to school at Georgetown, majored in history, because I found that of interest. I was always on the newspaper, photography, you know, news editor, all those things interested me, and I gravitated toward them. But I always thought, this is way too much fun to be a job. And so I never saw myself doing that until... It sort of got to the end of the line at Georgetown. I thought, what the heck am I gonna do? And I took an internship at NBC.

• 26:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  NBC DC, in Washington.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  In Washington, at WRC and NBC. And I walked in that newsroom and I just knew immediately I was home. You know, it was just like, this is the coolest place ever. These people are having a ball.

• 27:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody's busy and they're enjoying it.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  And they're getting a paycheck. I was like, I can do this. And suddenly it all clicked and I just never turned back.

• 27:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's a drug?

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's absolutely.

• 27:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're in there, it's fast paced. And we all saw the movie, what was it? Network News?

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Network, yeah.

• 27:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not Network, but Network News, right, right. Or Broadcast News. There you go, there you go.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  I'm mad as hell!

• 27:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, that's, no, that's Network.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  That's Network.

• 27:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, yes. It was before your time.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, I don't know Broadcast News then.

• 27:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, no, you know Broadcast. It had Holly Hunter in it and William Hurt.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, yeah, but it was, it showed the fast-paced, it's highly energized and they have to be on time. And the tape has to be working and the interview's gotta be in place and the anchor's hair has to be just right. And everything's gotta come together. So there's gotta be some kind of, uh, drug going on, drug influence.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, but that's a good drug, you know. Unlike comedy, which is like crack.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Just straight up crack. It's awful.

• 28:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I think the universe is a drug.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Really?

• 28:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Is that your personal drug? Your drug of choice?

• 28:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's ecstasy.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  It's ecstasy?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I can see, I see you right now with a couple glow sticks, just getting high on the universe.

• 28:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's it.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How much higher than the universe can you possibly get? It's not, it is as high as it comes.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  That's so true.

• 28:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, so what I wonder is, in journalism, if they print something that is not true but people think it's true, how long does it stay how people think it's true? Is there, does it stay that way forever?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  You know, for a lot of people it does.

• 28:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Especially if it lines up with what you already believe.

• 28:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's the bias. You don't even put in energy to ask if it's not true.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  That's right. You just accept it because it already lines up with your beliefs. And then at that point, if the redaction is made.

• 28:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Redaction?

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, uh.

• 29:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Retraction?

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Retraction.

• 29:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Retraction.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Well, yes, well, I'm looking at it in a, in, in print form. So.

• 29:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But if a retraction is made, at that point, you're like, oh, well, you don't even hear that. That doesn't even register. This is a famous bias that we have. It's a selectivity bias. Right. We remember and pay attention to the things that we already want to be true. And we remember the hits and forget the misses. There you go. That's what it is. You're listening to StarTalk Radio. When we come back, more of my interview with Miles O'Brien, science journalist. We are back on StarTalk Radio. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your astrophysicist. Can I say I'm people's personal?

• 29:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love it when you say that. You like that. Your personal astrophysicist. But what I really want is there be a whole bunch of more astrophysicists and I can just go to Bahamas and not be anybody's. At that point, that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah, it's no good if it's just me. I want company. We should get some Neil impersonators. Oh, is that it? Okay. You know what I mean? Like they had Elvis, Elvai. Yeah, but what about me would you impersonate? That's what I'm asking. Do I have ears that stick out? Do I have some weird facial feature? I don't know. No, you don't. Do I say, "Thank you very much"? No, I don't have any. I don't have... You have a very distinctive voice, though. Oh. Oh, yeah. So you come back one day and you... We'll try it. We'll try it. Okay.

• 30:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, they tried it on Saturday Night Live. Oh, my God. I saw that. And I gotta say, that was the worst. You didn't like... That was the worst. No, how could it be the worst? It was the only Neil impression there ever was. So how could it be the worst? It's not the worst, it's the first. It's the first. Get through the first and then you start comparing. All right, I'll give you that. On Saturday Night Live, I was very flattered. Okay. I would be imitated. Back to Miles O'Brien, journalist. Yeah, so, you know, he survived CNN in the beginning pink slip there and he had his freelance interval for a while and now he landed on his feet at PBS. And so let's see how that is going for him. Find out.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I was available, as we know.

• 31:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were between jobs.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Between jobs, as they say. I was flailing about. Actually, I was living large. CNN gave me.

• 31:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Severance, yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  I still have the contract. And I was like, you wanna send me home, gotta pay me. Anyway, the NewsHour was approached by a bunch of funders who said, we want you to do more science. Well, who do you call?

• 31:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There it is.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Science busters, right here. And what's really interesting is, when I was at Georgetown, my first ever taste of television was in that very building at WETA, where the PBS NewsHour is located. And my boss at the time was Linda Winslow. Now Linda Winslow is the EP for the NewsHour. So I've come completely full circle.

• 31:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  EP, executive producer.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Executive producer. So there I am back, and it is extraordinary. I mean, here's the thing. You work at CNN. CNN is on 24 hours, 365, right? I believe that is all the time we have, right? Pretty much? And yet, they would say, when I came in with a two-minute and 30-second piece, we don't have enough time. I'm sorry, you have all the time. And I go into the NewsHour and I say, I've got a 13-minute script here. And they say, well, can you trim it to 11? And I think to myself, I have died and gone to journalistic heaven. Thank God for Big Bird. What would I do without him?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so he goes from people asking why his two-minute shot is worth anything to,

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  can you trim a 13-minute segment to 11 minutes?

• 32:49Speaker 02

  You know what? That is the beauty of what I call crowdfunded journalism. That's why I listen to NPR. You know, not because they have a particular bent.

• 33:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't listen to StarTalk radio?

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Well, I listen to StarTalk all the time. I'm listening to it right now.

• 33:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're creative.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  But you know, the fact is that they don't have to worry about corporate financing.

• 33:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  They just do what they do.

• 33:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do what's right, and as they gotta do it.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 33:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you know, I'm old enough to remember that the, was it NBC?

• 33:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, local, the local news in New York.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, they, you know, they give their half hour news before the, the evening news.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They said, we're gonna go to an hour. And people said, oh.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Right, you can, that's, that's, how do you do?

• 33:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How do you do that? Oh my god!

• 33:42Speaker 02

  What are you gonna talk about for a whole hour?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  How could you do an hour's worth of news?

• 33:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hours worth of news, before the news, you're gonna do an hour's worth of news. And they said something that's, well, I thought they were just BSing. They said, they said, uh, if you're wondering how we could fill that hour, actually, we had a hard time finding out what to cut.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 34:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I said, no, he's, he's, that can't be right.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And sure enough, they filled the hour and, you know, the rest is history. Now we-

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Now we have 24 hours.

• 34:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  24/7, 365.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Plus Leap Day. May- maybe Leap Day should be a day without news.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Oh god, that would be great.

• 34:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it's not, you know, is it, it's not every, it's, it's one day in four years.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Four years, right.

• 34:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just, just give us a break, for goodness sake.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But that's it, 24 hours a day?

• 34:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  24/7. And so, then you look, are they actually filling it with 24/7? If you look at Headline News, they're not. They're on a loop.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You almost, you, don't you have a gig coming up on Headline News?

• 34:41Speaker 02

  I can't talk about it.

• 34:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, sorry. It's a secret, sorry. We might see you on Headline News.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  You may, very soon.

• 34:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or might not. But, uh, there's a loop going on there and, and Sports Center.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Same thing, same loop.

• 34:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They go on loops.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  You know what that is?

• 34:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they're not really filling 24/7?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  No, they're not. And you know why? That's the radio model. I, I mean, I don't know if this is what they actually call it, but I remember when I worked in, uh, terrestrial radio, um, you know, the-

• 35:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Terrestrial radio, that's old-fashioned radio that doesn't come off a satellite.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Thank you, sir. Absolutely. So, we would say, why can't we play deeper cuts on the album? And they said, well-

• 35:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Deeper cuts, you mean more than just the top hit?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  More than just the top hit. And they would say, nope, you gotta play the hits. People only listen for a certain period of time, so you gotta play the hits. You can't, you can't show them what else this artist might do.

• 35:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because then they won't hear the hits in the time they're tuning in.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you gotta, just while they're in the car.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  That, that's it.

• 35:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just while they're at the beach.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  And that's the news. That's what we're doing now with the news and the information that we have.

• 35:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  It's awful.

• 35:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they're lying to say their 24/7 covers, their 24/7 repeats.

• 35:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Absolutely. When we come back, we're gonna have some special guests to talk about science journalism. Looking forward to it. And its enemies. We'll see you in a moment.

• 36:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, we're back. Yes, we are. Guess who I have in studio? I am very excited about this. In flesh, Bill Nye, the Science Guy. It's so good to be here. What happened to your voice, Neil?

• 36:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we have via Skype, by electronic transmission, Elise Andrews. Elise, the curator of IFLS. I effin' frickin' love science. Elise, thanks for being on StarTalk again. I count both of you as friends of the show. It's not your first time you've been on. We've chatted with you about us. Right. And so, what I wanted to focus on, IFLS has nearly 20 million likes. People who follow its content. Bill, your book, Undeniable, is now on the Best Seller, New York Times Best Seller. Congratulations on this. Thank you. But there's a denominator here I want to tease out. Bill's book is not simply, here's evolution.

• 37:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's, here's evolution to all you people who think it didn't happen. Right. It's got a target audience in there. And Elise, you've got entries in your Facebook page where the comment thread is like, it attracts people who just want to attack science. So, Elise, let me start with you. What is your take on who these people are, why they're out there, and why they're doing it? You're just trying to spread out what's going on out there? Just trying to drop some knowledge. Just trying to drop some knowledge. That's all?

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Honestly, I have no idea. I think the psychology of these people is very hard to get inside. I personally have never felt the need to write a thousand-word comment about why I disagree with an article or why I hate something. So, it's hard for me to get into that mindset. But it is very bizarre. I mean, even on a site like IFLS, which is very expressly and very clearly about science, it's very pro-science, usually goes with the scientific consensus, we still have an astonishing amount of people who just don't accept things that are... Scientific fact, at least according to the sci- the scientific consensus in the world of science, and that's really quite disturbing, you know, all they have to do is post about anything vaguely controversial, and that includes evolution, climate change, vaccines,

• 38:16Speaker 03

  GMOs, anything like that, and you'll see comment threads that get to tens of thousands of comments long, or with people getting very, very vicious and very upset about it, it's, it's really quite suppo- I mean, I've, I've stopped being surprised after all this time, but there are times when you look at it and think, wow.

• 38:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you should try is try, try putting a post, uh, there's such a thing as gravity, and see if people object to that. I was wondering, if people would-

• 38:39Speaker 03

  They, they would be, there would be people that would find a way.

• 38:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I gained weight last week, I wanna repeal the laws of gravity. So Bill, you were in the lion's den, uh, debating, uh, uh, Ken Ham.

• 38:50Bill Nye?

  Yes.

• 38:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, I call it ham on nigh, that's what I call that. And-

• 38:55Bill Nye?

  I think I know what you mean.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  That was a priceless response. I call it ham on nigh.

• 39:03Bill Nye?

  Well, it was-

• 39:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, so, so, you're-

• 39:06Bill Nye?

  It was, uh, uh, a loss for words, which is unusual for me.

• 39:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it's, it's a community of people who sort of all in agreement that you don't know what you're talking about.

• 39:14Bill Nye?

  That the earth is six thousand years old.

• 39:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 39:16Bill Nye?

  So, yeah, as I say, the guy, uh, I'm not an expert on the bible, this isn't my business.

• 39:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:21Bill Nye?

  But he right away goes to the new testament, but the whole six thousand year old thing, as I understand, the bible was about the old testament.

• 39:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But at least, at least, at least, they have this, this document that they're basing their belief system on.

• 39:33Bill Nye?

  Whereas I, and Elise, what do we have?

• 39:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, at least he has a document, at least, the naysayers on your, on your site, what are they basing, it, it's a, it's a political philosophy then, in many cases, rather than a religious philosophy, is that how we split the, the kingdom here?

• 39:49Speaker 03

  A lot of the time it is very politicized, yeah, and I, I find that very strange, obviously I'm British, and we don't have such a strong divide down party lines on science that you seem to have in America, just from my observation, it seems very strange to me that people feel like they have to deny climate change based on who they're voting for, that, that's very alien to me, but that is what I see very much in the comments.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  That's because you guys have something, um, that we sometimes lack, called intelligence, and, um-

• 40:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  And it dis into-

• 40:19Bill Nye?

  No, you guys, it just shows that-

• 40:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck just started a website.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  You guys have a robot driving around on Mars.

• 40:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  Let's not, let's not, it's not, it's too much.

• 40:28Bill Nye?

  Two, we still have two robots.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do, you have, there's two driving around and there was one stuck in there somewhere.

• 40:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That Chuck is just trying to plug his anti-global warming website funded by Exxon. That's right.

• 40:39Bill Nye?

  By Nuke, that's right. But you know, just to talk about all that, uh, and Exxon, two things. First of all, the biggest problem that, uh, I have with the creationist movement is they have very strong, uh, complete thorough curriculum where they try to indoctrinate young people, schooled kids.

• 40:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 40:58Bill Nye?

  Into this philosophy and they have workbooks and DVDs and curriculum guides.

• 41:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's organized.

• 41:02Bill Nye?

  And quizzes.

• 41:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:04Bill Nye?

  That demonstrate there is electricity, there's voltage and amperage and the earth is 6,000 years old.

• 41:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. Okay.

• 41:10Bill Nye?

  And so what I will say, at least what keeps the developed world in the game, the UK and the US, is innovation, is new ideas. We, both countries, uh, have no trouble feeding themselves right now.

• 41:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With food, yes.

• 41:26Bill Nye?

  Yeah, with food. But what, uh, what we export now is ideas rather than products. I mean, there are a few products. So if we raise a generation of kids that's not scientifically literate, that is a formula for disaster.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:42Bill Nye?

  And that's where IFLS really is changing the world.

• 41:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, do you know what your demographics are for IFLS?

• 41:48Speaker 03

  It is very much mostly young people. The, the vast majority of our followers are between the ages of 18 and 24.

• 41:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that bodes well for the future.

• 41:56Bill Nye?

  It sure does.

• 41:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hmm.

• 41:57Bill Nye?

  And are they UK or is it USA? Is it, is it, do you have any?

• 42:01Speaker 03

  It's mostly, it's mostly, I mean, the four big countries we've got, it goes USA, UK, Canada, then Australia.

• 42:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  So, uh, it is mostly the USA, but then to be honest, there are a lot of you guys. So, most of the people on the internet are.

• 42:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  In the USA. But it is vaguely proportional per country.

• 42:17Bill Nye?

  It is, it is remarkable. What's the world's most populous country, gentlemen's?

• 42:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  China.

• 42:23Bill Nye?

  Second most populous?

• 42:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  India.

• 42:24Bill Nye?

  India. Third most populous?

• 42:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Russia.

• 42:27Bill Nye?

  United States.

• 42:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really? Did we pass Russia?

• 42:28Bill Nye?

  There you go.

• 42:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, well, that wasn't the Soviet Union, it wasn't, but now I guess it's just Russia and maybe.

• 42:32Bill Nye?

  So, okay, there's a lot of, so that's why there's so many USians on the IFLsters.

• 42:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, Facebook's blocked in China, so I can't reach them.

• 42:42Bill Nye?

  That would, dare I say it, change the world.

• 42:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, you're blocked in China? Are you blocked in China?

• 42:48Speaker 03

  No, not me specifically, the whole of Facebook.

• 42:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  So it's not her, it's kind of Mark Zuckerberg.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  Not, not my page specifically, you can't access Facebook whatsoever in China.

• 42:58Bill Nye?

  Do you know how fast that place would change if you could get Facebook in there?

• 43:02Speaker 03

  It would, yes, it would. Well, they have their own version, don't they?

• 43:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, they do. Yes, yes.

• 43:07Bill Nye?

  They have their own version of Facebook?

• 43:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The government sanctioned version, or Tinder?

• 43:11Bill Nye?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wouldn't that be cool if Tinder got into China?

• 43:15Bill Nye?

  You guys, I just got a feeling it kind of is.

• 43:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would bust loose everything.

• 43:20Bill Nye?

  That's what I'm saying to you.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 43:23Bill Nye?

  No, but I mean, really, you guys, it would change the world if you, if people had unlimited access.

• 43:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To sex.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:30Bill Nye?

  No, to anything they wanted to see.

• 43:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, oh, oh, okay.

• 43:33Bill Nye?

  But then maybe that's the same thing.

• 43:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which initially would be sex.

• 43:35Bill Nye?

  Maybe it's the same thing.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:37Bill Nye?

  But it would change the world, you guys, and so, uh, I think it would be a more effective, so at least you're, you're doing, um, noble work.

• 43:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, so, so the people, like, these people who argue with the science, are they, do they look like they're part of an organized group, the way Bill's resistance is?

• 43:55Speaker 03

  No, I don't see that very often. Occasionally, you do get what does look like a very mobilized task force. Like, at the moment, actually, something I've got going on is, I made a comment about, um, animal testing.

• 44:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Somebody asked me if I supported animal testing or not, and I said, obviously, I do support medical testing on animals. It's unfortunate, but necessary. I look forward to the day when it's no longer necessary, but for the moment, it is necessary. It just, it saves lives, and that's obviously important. And that, somebody screenshotted it, and it went viral, and it got to the top of Imga or something like that, and I, I, and I've had a lot over the last, um, over the last few days, I've been trapped. I, I don't know if it's a specific group, but it certainly feels like it. I've had a lot of threats. I've had a lot of, uh, people organizing, I've had dozens and dozens of emails. I've even had people tracking down ex-employers and calling them, hoping to get my contact information, hoping to get my address.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  It's really kind of frightening. So I'm kind of happy that I'm here in the UK rather than where I usually live, because people are crazy.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, people are crazy, but for that particular argument, you just have to tell them that they are welcome to be the test subjects for these trials. And that's what I say.

• 45:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, what you do is, no, no, here's what you do. You have the medicines that were tested on animals and medicines that were not tested on, and anyone who doesn't want to use the medicine tested, they can buy that and then...

• 45:16Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 45:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There it is.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  And then everybody's happy.

• 45:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah. How about that? What do you think of that, Bill?

• 45:21Bill Nye?

  Uh, I don't think it'll fly, but yeah, you can talk about it because it...

• 45:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then the evolution people can use the vaccine that was not based on evolution.

• 45:29Bill Nye?

  Would, but they were that simple. That's the great irony, and speaking of which, this is the great irony. When you go to Answers in Genesis Ministry in Kentucky, they have iPhones, they've got Facebooks, they got Twitter, they're cranked it up to 11, they got LED lighting, and they don't believe in science.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Right. So that's it. They have the most modern technology and they also handle snakes.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  They believe in the part that suits them like everybody else. They believe in the parts that suit them. Everybody's the same.

• 46:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that is our collective challenge going forward.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Those who cherry pick science and those who do not.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  That's a good way to put it.

• 46:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At least we gotta call it, we gotta stop it there. Thanks for skyping in to StarTalk Radio.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 46:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Bill, thanks for coming in.

• 46:15Bill Nye?

  It's so good to be in.

• 46:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, always good to have you here.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 46:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On, we've been listening to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you to keep looking up.