#ICYMI - The Art of the Hail Mary

The Hail Mary pass is one of the most exciting plays you’ll ever see in any sport. This week, hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice look at one of the greatest, the “Miracle at Michigan,” with the man who threw it, Kordell Stewart, and physicist John Eric Goff. Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on: TuneIn: http://www.tunein.com/playingwithscience Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2 Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-science SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-science GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjq NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:12Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:13Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. Yes, today, my friends, we are about to take you to the point of no return. The moment when all else seems lost and your last hope is but a prayer. But if your quarterback has a cannon for an arm and that prayer happens to be a Hail Mary, the outcome can sometimes be really quite miraculous.

• 0:35Chuck Nice?

  Yes, bless me, Father, for I have sinned. Today, we're looking at the art of the Hail Mary, the long football pass thrown in desperation for touchdown glory. And to help us unpack the science behind the miracles, we'll be joined by our friend, Eric Goff, physics professor at Lynchburg College, Virginia, and the author of Gold Metal Physics.

• 0:55Gary O'Reilly?

  But first, we have a little something special for you.

• 0:58Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 0:58Gary O'Reilly?

  As you know, yes, we like to begin the show with a play that demonstrates the topic of the day. And for today, we've chosen one of the most iconic Hail Mary passes in college football history, the miracle at Michigan, all the way back in 1994. But before we go to that clip, let's welcome our first guest, who is calling in today, a man who owns 38 rushing NFL touchdowns and whose arm gave us the miracle at Michigan.

• 1:29Chuck Nice?

  Yes, go on, Chuck, do it. None other than the one, the only, Kordell Stewart, former Pittsburgh Steelers and Chicago Bears quarterback, and of course, the star of the miracle at Michigan, and a guy known as Slash, without the big top hat and all the crazy hair. Cordell, what's up?

• 1:47Speaker 02

  What's going on, gents? How we doing?

• 1:50Gary O'Reilly?

  We're good. How are you, sir?

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Ah, I'm just out here getting a little exercise in as I talk to you, great young men, on this beautiful Saturday morning, just trying to keep it nice and loose so that as we talk about this great play in Michigan.

• 2:02Chuck Nice?

  There you go, my friend.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  I have enough energy to give it to you. Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:05Chuck Nice?

  All right. No, it's good to see that you're still excited about it because when you... It's funny, a lot of people can say like, "Oh, that's one of the greatest plays of all time," or "Oh, that was really one of the most exciting plays." You actually can say that, and it's true.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with you 110%. Um, there's many Hail Mary passes that we've watched. Uh, LSU, Kentucky, uh, tip ball, kid catches it and runs it for about 20 yards or so in the end zone. Uh, Doug Flutie, his against Boston College, his against, excuse me, against the Miami Hurricanes. Uh, I think it was, the Hurricanes were number one in the country. Uh, they knocked them off off of that one play.

• 2:44Chuck Nice?

  Okay, knowledge Cordell. Yeah, you see, you're a historian too.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And truthfully, that play was only, the ball was only thrown like maybe, let's say what, 55 to 60 yards. Mine was actually 74 yards in the air. They like to go from the line of scrimmage. I go from the place in which the ball was released. And, uh, it was done in the bit house. What other place can you do it?

• 3:05Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  And, uh, quiet that many people in one place. Uh, it was pretty remarkable, I must say.

• 3:11Chuck Nice?

  Well, we have talked about it, so why don't we go ahead and take a listen and for those of us with us via video, watch the actual play. Here it is, uh, via Kordell Stewart, the miracle at Michigan.

• 3:35Chuck Nice?

  So right now what we're doing is, um, looking at the pre-play.

• 3:43Chuck Nice?

  A lot of tension building on the sidelines.

• 3:51Chuck Nice?

  So we have a four, four wide receivers on the field, three wide receiver set. Six seconds on the clock, fourth quarter. Here it is. Cordell's back to pass, scrambles a little bit, launches the ball.

• 4:14Gary O'Reilly?

  And then Cordell breaks about a 70 meter sprint record. To get into the end zone.

• 4:21Chuck Nice?

  Look at him, man. Wow, and I love the camera work here. There is the juxtaposition of Cordell running down the field with great joy, like you say, just sprinting and every one of the Buffaloes just jumping on top of each other. And then they keep cutting back to Michigan and the look on the players faces.

• 4:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Amazing blue has been cut down.

• 4:44Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 4:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, baby, there was some disconsolate faces. Okay, Cordell, quite simply, you and Colorado tried that same play at the end of the first half. Am I right?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes, you are. We tried to, I mean, this was a game that was, we had tons of ebbs and flows and, you know, statistically, our numbers were great, but on the board, we wasn't really doing much, especially in the first half. Everything we were doing, we were pretty much stepping ourselves in the foot and, you know, it came down to a play that we needed to try. And I ended up earning an interception off of that one play, but we tried to give a valid expectation.

• 5:22Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  To get us in position to have some good energy going into half.

• 5:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so if we go back to that team, it's not just a future Pro Bowl quarterback. You have a future Heisman Trophy winning running back blocking for you. And the guy who eventually catches it in the end zone.

• 5:41Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 5:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Michael Westbrook is going on to be an NFL wide receiver and actually becomes a world champion mixed martial arts. By the way, is it no wonder you won?

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  If you want to throw all that inside of it, I promise you, you can. I mean, we had Ray Carruth on the field.

• 5:59Chuck Nice?

  That's right, Ray Carruth.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  We had, we had Brian Stot, we had Brian Stotenberg on the field, who was my center, who ended up, I think, ended up going to New England. We had Chris Nioli, who went to Jacksonville. We had a multitude, we had Heath Irwin, who was my right guard, Tony Birdie and Derek West. And as you mentioned, Rashawn Salam. And, I mean, it was, it was a tremendous play and for Rashawn on my left and also Tony Birdie to make that magnificent block. I mean, they just mauled the guy. If you could have gone to jail for doing some double team. That was the play that you can actually go to jail. And the best thing Michigan did, let's be realistic, excuse me, the best thing they did. Which rushed only three rushers. Right.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  That was the best, that was the best, that was the play of the day, not so much what we did, because that's why you draw it up, that's why you practice it, to complete that play. But the, the most important part of it was they only rushed three guys. And so when I had an opportunity to get to the outside, and we would practice it maybe once a week in Colorado, and in Boulder, we had higher altitude, so the ball actually travels maybe five to 10 yards further. Okay. And so, once we, once we got in the game and it was all on the line, the referees couldn't call a flag, we could go back and look at it, they could have called a flag a couple of times up front, but they didn't call a flag. No flags.

• 7:16Chuck Nice?

  It's funny that you mention that, because, you know, when you look at the, the YouTube video, you can tell who the Michigan fans are, because they all say the same thing. Holding call, not called. Clearly holding, not called. It's not called, dude, they're holding. So now, here's the thing, though. Here's the thing, and, and you being not only a part of that play, but playing in the NFL, is it not true, on a play like this, at the end of any game, whether you're in college or the pros, the ref, the refs are gonna let you guys play? Like, you, like, every, every player on the field knows, if I get held, I'm not gonna get a call.

• 7:59Chuck Nice?

  So what I gotta do is make sure that I am, like, I'm not, I'm gonna, like, this guy's going down, I'm gonna bull rush the hell out of this guy, because there's no way I'm gonna get called, uh, uh, someone's gonna get called for holding. Is that true?

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Well, let's have a little, well, let's have a little transparency. Who in the heck think that someone needed to throw the ball 70-plus yards to win the game? Who, I mean, you see why 100-plus thousand people were in awe?

• 8:21Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  The entire time, because they never thought it could happen. I mean, we were the only people, you know what's the traditional way of thinking when on the road? Us against the world, right? Right, yeah, of course.

• 8:30Chuck Nice?

  That, by the way, Cordell, Cordell, by the way, that's, uh, that's my way of thinking for everything, sorry, go ahead.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  That's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because that's the only way you succeed and be special. But we were special that day because of that mentality we had. But no one expected that play to be completed.

• 8:46Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Only we did. Only we did and completed.

• 8:49Chuck Nice?

  It's funny you say that you expected the play to be completed because um when I look at the fact that, so you would like, what, 74 yards, right? Because I've heard 60, I've heard 65, 70, and 73, and 74.

• 9:05Gary O'Reilly?

  You count it from where the pass started, not from the line of scrimmage.

• 9:08Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 9:10Chuck Nice?

  So you're.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  So anytime, anytime you have, all right, there's unofficial and there are official numbers.

• 9:16Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  To me, because of the act, you have to go that that was the official because the ball can't get completed from the line of scrimmage. It gets completed from where the ball was released. So if it's released from the minus 26 yard line, my math teacher told me 74 plus 26 is 100. So it ends up landing, literally, if it lands on the ground, probably what?

• 9:37Chuck Nice?

  Well, no.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Inside the end zone?

• 9:38Chuck Nice?

  It isn't, it's just in the end zone, so.

• 9:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so Rocket.

• 9:42Chuck Nice?

  It's just inside the end zone.

• 9:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Rocket left is the name of the play, correct?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, Rocket left. So this is what's crazy. This is, hold up real quick, this is what's crazy.

• 9:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Tell me.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Before that play, we threw an in, like an in cut to Michael Westbrook.

• 9:56Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Okay? Same formation, Rocky left, Michael in cut. So we come up, throw the ball, I spike it. We only have what, five, six seconds left on the clock?

• 10:06Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  I walk to the sideline like we're about to run another play like that, ready to ask the coach. Coach, what are you thinking now? He's like, what are you coming over here for? Rocket left! And that's when you see me walking to the sideline and walking back on the field like a big kid, like I was just, you know.

• 10:22Gary O'Reilly?

  So you're already playing mind games. You're already playing mind games at college.

• 10:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was already doing it. So it, it uh, every time I see Coach Newhouse, we. We always start the conversation off, you know, that I told you we was gonna win the game. And then we start talking about normal stuff and the kids and everything.

• 10:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, let's go back to Rocket Left. It's a designed play for a tip off to be caught in the end zone, correct?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  It's a Hail Mary, yes. Rocket Left is a Hail Mary play. Rocket Left or Rocket Right, depending on where the ball is on the hash.

• 10:51Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm with you. So what kind of percentage of success are you thinking you have with a tip off, knowing that basically everybody but three players for Michigan are back in the end zone waiting for you and your pass?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Fifty fifty chance.

• 11:07Chuck Nice?

  It's fifty fifty. That good?

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you do is have a chance, right?

• 11:10Chuck Nice?

  Right. And when you practice that, you practice the actual tip itself? Or, or, or do you, because every team practices tip drills all the time.

• 11:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Chuck Nice?

  So, uh, when you practice the Hail Mary, do you practice the actual tip itself as well?

• 11:25Speaker 02

  No, we actually, uh, practice positioning.

• 11:27Chuck Nice?

  Ah.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Of the players, positioning.

• 11:30Chuck Nice?

  I got you.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  So if, you know, we go down, you notice Blake Anderson was in the front.

• 11:34Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Uh, we end up having Mike coming around the backside.

• 11:38Chuck Nice?

  Right, right.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  We had James Kidd, and then Ray Cruz came last minute. So we had everybody in a somewhat of a circle. Once the ball was tipped, but this was crazy. The ball hit Ty Law first.

• 11:51Chuck Nice?

  Right, yep.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  When it comes down, it looked like Blake Anderson was there. He's a distraction. But it hit Ty Law. Mike comes around as big as he is.

• 11:59Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  He's on top of Ty Law. He catches the football. All I see is an arm. All I see is an arm in the air from where I was.

• 12:06Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  And I show Coach Mack and everybody on the sideline, run on the field. I'm like, whoa. He caught it. Oh my goodness.

• 12:13Chuck Nice?

  So now.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  I didn't get down there quick enough.

• 12:15Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask you. So here's two things. One, you threw the ball accurately seventy-four yards. You didn't just throw a ball up. Okay, so, uh, Anderson's right there, and the ball is coming down to hit your, your receiver.

• 12:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Um.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Targeted pass.

• 12:35Chuck Nice?

  It's a targeted pass. It's seventy-four. Does that, when a scout is watching that on television or, and he sees that, does that up your stock when it comes time to like, hey, let's take a look at this guy?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, most definitely. Here's the thing about the Hail Mary pass. And what's tough is one, you hope the quarterback has the arm.

• 12:58Chuck Nice?

  Yep, right.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  In our case, it was almost, for most, slim to none to get this ball down the field, right?

• 13:06Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  So what do you have? You have the LSU Kentucky game where you just throw it up in the air. Guy catches, he runs the 20 yards in.

• 13:12Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  You get the Doug Flutie, where he's what? On a plus 45, maybe 50 yard line?

• 13:18Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  He can throw a 50 yard pass, right? But you're talking now from the minus 30 yard line?

• 13:25Gary O'Reilly?

  You maxed it out. Let's be fair, Cordell. You've maxed this pass out.

• 13:29Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  And so in my case, my margin of error was much greater.

• 13:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Than the other guys, because the other guys, they can throw it up as high as they want to, give guys time.

• 13:39Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Because it's not really that far of a throw.

• 13:42Chuck Nice?

  Well, yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  But I have to, but I have to hold it a minute.

• 13:45Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  And once I hold it, I literally have to throw it all I have.

• 13:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Cordell, you've just explained why we're talking to you, because this for us is the definitive. It comes up at number one from your point of view.

• 13:59Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it is. Seriously, I mean, that's one of the reasons why we asked for you specifically, because this is without a doubt. When you want to look at all the Hail Mary plays, you know, this is the best for all these reasons that you just mentioned. One, the amount of field that you had to cover in the air with the ball. And the fact that you accurately delivered a 74 yard pass, period. So let's just say for instance, uh, let's just say for instance that Anderson had, his defender had tripped. Like this wasn't a Hail Mary, right? And he was just alone, but he would have caught that ball for a touchdown.

• 14:30Gary O'Reilly?

  But no, the ball, the ball, isn't the ball, the first contact on the ball is actually outside the end zone first?

• 14:36Chuck Nice?

  Yes, but, but what I'm saying is.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  I mean, whoever hits the ball first, wherever it hits high law.

• 14:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  If he catches the ball right there with his momentum moving forward, it would be a touchdown.

• 14:46Chuck Nice?

  It would have been a touchdown. That's, that's what I'm saying.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  It would have been a touchdown. And so, um, the only thing I knew how to do is throw it to a spot. And honestly, I was off to the inside. That's why you see Michael coming in so hard. Because it was, it was off a little bit to the inside. To where it forced the momentum of the crowd to kind of fall inward a little bit. So everyone was so much off balance.

• 15:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, Cordell, once you're sat there and not much of a pocket when there's only three guys rushing you, um, you've got to have something going tick tock, tick tock upstairs and you must know, I have got X amount of fractions of seconds left. You've got this internal clock, you've got peripheral vision, you've got your pass rushes, you've got everything going on, you must know my arm's got to be back and ball gone in X amount of seconds. Do you actually have that internally? Is it something you naturally have or is it something that you can practice?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Well, this is not a timing route.

• 15:46Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Because you're not, you're not working off of a five step drop hit and throw or pop up hit to check down or if it's not their run. This is a play where you need time, so.

• 15:55Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you actually made that time, you actually made that time because you got outside to make this throw.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, what you, what you guys, what you guys are prefacing is basically pre-snap read to indicate how much time I have. My pre-snap read was they only had three rushers, he had six blockers.

• 16:10Chuck Nice?

  Okay, okay.

• 16:11Gary O'Reilly?

  What you've done, you stretch time because you know that you've got to get outside to give your receivers enough time to get far enough down the field. So what you do is you already know, you must already know, you must be already subconsciously programming your extra bit of space. You're dragging that space out, that time.

• 16:28Chuck Nice?

  Is that, is that the case when you're pre-snap and you see three rushers? That, what, what Gary's saying is, do you, do you then change in your mind the internal clock? Like, you know what? If I get outside or if I, if I move around or if I move the pocket, I can, I can actually stretch this play.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Well, what you guys saw was, is I knew Rashawn was going to my left because of the tip left play. I knew he was going to my left, so I knew I had maybe the center, the left guard, left tackle and Rashawn there to help protect me. So all I had to be aware of is the pressure coming from my right. Cause I knew I was protected from my left, so if my tackle on my right side was beat, that meant I would have to find more time, but I didn't want to go away from where the tip was going to be. I wanted to go to the side where the tip was. That's why Rashawn went that way because I needed maximum protection.

• 17:15Chuck Nice?

  Look at that.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  They slid everything over, once they slid everything over.

• 17:18Gary O'Reilly?

  See, this is, this is part of the miracle. Every, every compartment, every bit of.

• 17:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Player mentality comes together to make it work.

• 17:28Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Gary O'Reilly?

  You know Rashawn Salam is going to block left, so therefore you move with the protection. And then you get a guy at the other end who's going to more than anybody to get to the ball.

• 17:36Chuck Nice?

  And that's why we break these plays down like this because, you know, there's so much more going on than what just appears to be happening on the field. And so that's, that's why we wanted to have you here and talk about like, you know, the nuances of this. But I gotta ask you a question. It's just from me personally, I just, just want to know. You know, when you sit there and you look like this past season and you see Aaron Rodgers throw a hail mary.

• 17:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Chuck Nice?

  And you know that he threw a hail mary for about 40 yards. Or he threw a hail mary for about 47 yards. Does your, does your chest just swell up a little bit like, yeah, okay, good for you?

• 18:15Gary O'Reilly?

  You get your packers height on again, haven't you?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you know, it's, I mean, one, he did it twice in a season.

• 18:23Chuck Nice?

  Yes, alright.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Let's, let's make sure, we did it twice in a season. Did against Detroit and he also did against the Arizona Cardinals in the playoffs.

• 18:30Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yep. And so when you see a guy do it twice, you know, it's like, wow. Okay, and the one he did in Detroit was almost touching the rafters and coming back down. So that was.

• 18:40Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that was a hell of a throw.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Pretty good.

• 18:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Miracle in Motel.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and so, you know, I, I was like, wonderful, but you know me, I'm, I'm being arrogant and a little pompous about it. I'm like, it wasn't as, this wasn't as far as mine in Michigan.

• 18:54Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 18:56Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, good for you, Aaron, but that's no 74 yards, I'm just saying.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's no 74 yards, I'm just saying, bro, I love you, man, but great job. I mean, everybody loves it, but I, mine was a little bit further, thank you.

• 19:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Hey, Cordell, here's a question for you. If you were on the Michigan team, would you have allowed you to make that play?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, again, I don't think anyone thought.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  The ball can get that far, other than our guys on our side wishing and praying.

• 19:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I mean, be realistic here. You got three rushers, you have Ty Law and all the other players, which is a total of eight players, technically, all the way on the under end of the field. I mean, if those other eight players outside of the three guys rushing wasn't all the way down on the other end, as if I was gonna scramble, or as if I was gonna throw in cut, same on them. I mean, that's horrible coaching.

• 19:45Chuck Nice?

  Right. You tried to play at the end of the first half, so they must have known you had the arm.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Well, the one of the first half wasn't as far.

• 19:53Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  It was nowhere near. I think the one of the first half was maybe, yeah, maybe.

• 19:57Chuck Nice?

  It may be sixty, yeah, exactly.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Maybe sixty.

• 19:59Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  It almost threw out the back of the end zone. So it goes to show you I was a little too.

• 20:03Chuck Nice?

  You were a little hyped up. You were a little hyped up.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Chuck Nice?

  Hey, man, listen.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I was a little ticked off, too.

• 20:07Chuck Nice?

  I know you have a son, right?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 20:10Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and, and are we gonna see another NFL quarterback coming out of, uh, out of Cordell land? Or, or, or do you, are you encouraging him to play? I'm just, I'm just curious.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Well, considering, well, he plays. He plays corner, tailback, and safety.

• 20:25Chuck Nice?

  Ah, ooh. You know what's funny? Go ahead.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:29Chuck Nice?

  I was saying, it's funny, sometimes you see, like, uh, the, the children of, um, or the sons of NFL players, actually gravitate towards a different position than their dad? Is that because they don't wanna be compared to their dad?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  No, no, for me, that's how I started off. Technically, little league, I started off playing nose guard and tailback.

• 20:50Chuck Nice?

  Ah, okay.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Then when I got, when I got to middle school, I played cornerback, safety, and quarterback.

• 20:55Chuck Nice?

  Ah, okay.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  And then, once I got to high school, I was a free safety, and I was the quarterback.

• 21:01Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  And then I got on the basketball team, and my, my football head coach gave me ultimatum of, you wanna play basketball, or you wanna play football?

• 21:09Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  He saw I had the strongest arm amongst all the guys on the field. Just by messing around, before you know it, I became the quarterback on the football team, and boom, here we are. But my son. You know, with the game changing way it has now.

• 21:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Uh huh.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Quarterbacks, whether it be because of their mobility, uh, because of their speed or what have you and their strong arms, are allowed to play the game today. It's not all the, you know, we need to change their positions thing anymore. I mean, Terrell Pryor may be the only quarterback, uh, the guy that came in the league as a quarterback that changed his position and fully is playing wide receiver now.

• 21:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Uh, went to Washington Redskins. But, and if my son wants to play quarterback with how I think now the coaches are having a chance to coach this style and he's starting to understand it a little bit more.

• 21:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  You know, if he wants to play it, I'm all in. I mean, that's, that's even better for his resume because daddy get it. So, but he's natural at corner, at right corner. He's natural at free safety, has good speed.

• 22:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  And at tailback, he's just a natural athlete and he does have good hands too. So, he's, he's just a natural athlete.

• 22:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay. So, there's no surprise Kordell Stewart's son is a multitasking football player, right?

• 22:17Chuck Nice?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Just like dad was.

• 22:18Chuck Nice?

  Cause you, you, I mean, you were known as one of the best utilitarian quarterbacks in the game. I mean.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Slash two point oh, slash two point oh.

• 22:24Chuck Nice?

  Yes, slash two point oh.

• 22:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Whoa, whoa, hey, hey, hey, step up. You, you quarterback, wide receiver, and were you not emergency punt on special teams?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I even had the chance to go to Baltimore and played against the Jets and end up, uh, having AFC Player of the Week.

• 22:37Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Cause our punter got hurt and I ended up, you know, did a good job against the Jets, punting the football and did it once in Pittsburgh. So, yeah.

• 22:45Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 22:47Chuck Nice?

  Hey, man, that's all good stuff.

• 22:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Cordell, were, were you the future back in nineteen ninety-four? Were you the, the vision of things to come?

• 22:54Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I was, yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 22:55Chuck Nice?

  I, I won't let you, listen, Cordell, I'm not gonna let you answer that because here's the deal. I, I, I, I know right now you're struggling with, how do I say yes to this question?

• 23:05Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, I'm just, in terms of being able to do so many different things as well.

• 23:08Chuck Nice?

  That's exactly what I'm talking about. But, but the fact is, that's a undoubtedly, undoubtedly, no. Uh, you, you were one of the first quarterbacks.

• 23:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Let Cordell say go.

• 23:16Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  I'll say this, I'll say this.

• 23:19Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  This was in this fashion.

• 23:21Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Probably the first time from playing quarterback and playing wide receiver, the first time it was introduced to the National Football League on this level. I'll say that.

• 23:31Chuck Nice?

  All right, that was very humble.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 23:33Chuck Nice?

  Like I said, Cordell, I'm gonna answer it for you. The answer is yes. Yes, I was the future.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I'll take it, I'll take it.

• 23:40Chuck Nice?

  And if you wanna know I was the future, all you gotta do is look at the way quarterbacks are now, and I'm talking everybody who comes into the game, the first thing they look at, it used to be they thought that mobility was some kind of detriment, you know?

• 23:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Cordell opened the door.

• 23:55Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, they used to look at mobility as a detriment, like, oh, well, you know, this guy, you know, he's got happy feet, they used to say, and, oh, you know, this guy's always moving the pocket. Now, you listen to these same analysts, you listen to the same coaches.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  They're smart guys, they're smart guys.

• 24:11Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  They're so smart right now. Oh, my God, they're geniuses, aren't they?

• 24:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Gee, Louise.

• 24:15Chuck Nice?

  Exactly, so, all right, so that's fantastic. Hey, man.

• 24:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 24:19Chuck Nice?

  Thanks so much.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Guys, it was awesome, man.

• 24:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, man, the pleasure was ours.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Talking about that place.

• 24:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you for sharing.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Talking about that place, good times, no problem.

• 24:27Chuck Nice?

  Hey, man, please come back and talk to us about more things football, okay, my friend?

• 24:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Yep.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Will do, will do, thank you all.

• 24:34Chuck Nice?

  All right, buddy, take care.

• 24:35Gary O'Reilly?

  The pleasure's ours, thank you, Cordell, right, that's Kordell Stewart. What a great bit of insight into the miracle of Michigan. All right, we're gonna take a break. Oh, yes, about time for that. We'll come back and we will break down the physics behind the miracle of Michigan and to find out what it takes to get your Hail Marys answered here on Playing with Science.

• 25:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back, I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 25:04Chuck Nice?

  I'm Chuck Nice.

• 25:04Gary O'Reilly?

  This is Playing with Science, and today we're looking into the art and science of the Hail Mary pass in football. And joining us now by video call is Eric Goff, professor of physics at Lynchburg College, author of Gold Medal Physics: The Science of Sport, and a whole load of other things. Eric, welcome to the show, how are you, sir?

• 25:24Speaker 03

  I'm doing great, how are you?

• 25:25Gary O'Reilly?

  We're fabulous.

• 25:26Chuck Nice?

  Always a pleasure.

• 25:27Gary O'Reilly?

  We just heard there from Kordell Stewart, and really, just to hear his enthusiasm about something that happened so many years ago. Chuck, it's refreshing, it's incredible, no blase, anything about it. The guy was so focused and still sharp in his mind.

• 25:43Chuck Nice?

  And the funny thing about it is, like I said earlier... Go on YouTube and you look at all the comments from this play. All the comments from the play are happening today. And people are still really passionate about like what happened. I personally believe it is one of the greatest, you know, college football plays ever. At least from an excitement standpoint. I mean, it's very difficult to kind of generate that type of excitement around a play because it's game ending. Which I think actually makes any play more exciting and more poignant when the game ends.

• 26:20Gary O'Reilly?

  I think it's if it's a real hail Mary play, it has to be. With the clock just is evaporating.

• 26:27Chuck Nice?

  There's nothing left. Yeah, because you'll have a hail Mary play where there's like, okay, the team is going to get the call, the ball back. Well, we have 30 seconds left on the clock, you know, because it's it's about the possession. But the best ones are it's like, there is no time left on the clock. It's over. Go home. Either smiling or crying.

• 26:43Gary O'Reilly?

  So Eric, Cordell says, and you know what, I'm not in a place to argue with him. That that pass is 70 yards plus because from his point of view, he's thinking it's from where the ball is released. Not from the line of scrimmage. So how far do you calculate as a physicist? This actually is in terms of a pass.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  He's absolutely correct. He let go of the ball at about his own 27 yard line and it probably got to about the two yard line.

• 27:14Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Of Michigan. So we're looking at about 71 yards.

• 27:18Chuck Nice?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 27:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Um, how how fast do we anticipate that is traveling?

• 27:25Speaker 03

  So he's going to let go of it at close to 60 miles an hour.

• 27:28Chuck Nice?

  Wow, a football.

• 27:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Speeding fine.

• 27:31Chuck Nice?

  At 60 miles an hour. That's pretty impressive.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  That's very impressive. It's if you're going to throw a ball about 80 yards is a pretty long throw in practice. So you're going to get up to about 65, 66 miles an hour. So he's he's getting near the max of what he could do.

• 27:47Gary O'Reilly?

  So to to to, as he said, rather than aim at one individual, he's aiming for an area. It's a small area. So how how? In terms of forces and what's in play from the physics, how does he manage to be able to be that accurate over that distance?

• 28:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, because the ball lands exactly where it's supposed to.

• 28:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 28:09Chuck Nice?

  You know, it's like really a tremendously accurate pass. So what has to happen in order to get that type of accuracy?

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Well, he's probably at the limit of what he could throw, so he was probably just heaving it as hard as he could and he's gonna hit. I mean, he's still a yard or two short of the goal line, which is still optimized for that play because he got a nice tip to Westbrook. But the thing is, he's got to put a great spiral on it. So we're looking at about a 600 rpm spiral coming out of his hand.

• 28:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  And that's going to help the stability of the ball.

• 28:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Hmm, gotcha.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  And I'm sure he's practiced that throw many, many times before that before that game. So obviously that's going to play a large role in the accuracy of the throw.

• 28:55Gary O'Reilly?

  It's the last six seconds of the game. They don't get a touchdown. They go home with the tail between their legs. If Kordell Stewart just says, I've got, I've had my tin of spinach, I'm gonna bring it all to bear, he loses control. So you said he's probably giving it everything, but he still has to have an element of control. Have we got a hail mary equation of some kind, an algorithm, an equation that we can bring to bear on a situation in terms of distance and time, etc.?

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Well, once he lets go of the ball, the only thing acting on the ball is the earth's gravity and air resistance. So that's unlike any, you know, it's just like every other pass that's thrown in in football. So once the the ball's out of his hand, it's just up to the air and the earth to figure out where it's gonna go.

• 29:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Do we, if he, if the ball gets thrown high enough, do we have any other effects in terms of the rotation of the earth and we get carried away with ourselves here? Does it, is that going to impact upon a pass?

• 29:55Speaker 03

  It will by a couple of inches, but the the main thing is going to be the air. You know, like Flutie's famous hail mary had a pretty strong headwind. I don't know quite what the weather conditions were like for that pass in the big house, but if you've got a swirling wind as you get, these passes typically go about 20 yards off the turf as their maximum height. So once you get up to that height, if you get any little swirling wind, then that's going to affect the path of the ball as well.

• 30:24Chuck Nice?

  And and so when you look at trajectory, if you if you throw the ball higher, doesn't it go a shorter distance or wouldn't you have to put more force behind it in order to get it to go the same distance?

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Well, that's right, and it's the same strategy for a punter. I mean, if you kick it too low, too low an angle, then you're going to outkick your coverage. So you can, you want to get a lot of hang time, you kick it straight up or at a very large angle, but then you don't get a lot of distance. So you have to kind of optimize between those two effects. So Stewart's throwing that ball close to 45 degrees. It's a little bit higher angle than that, but it's somewhere around, you know, 45 degrees.

• 31:07Chuck Nice?

  And that's that's the optimum angle, right? Isn't 45 degrees like the optimum angle for a distance?

• 31:11Speaker 03

  It would be without air resistance. With air resistance, it's actually a little bit bigger than that.

• 31:17Chuck Nice?

  Okay, okay.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  And again, it depends on the wind as well.

• 31:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, Cordell was talking about the probability being around about, in his mind, actually 50/50 of success and failure. Would you say a play like the miracle of Michigan actually had a greater possibility of failing? Or is he about right?

• 31:39Speaker 03

  Well, when he's scrambling, I mean, he's almost caught at one point, isn't he?

• 31:43Chuck Nice?

  Yes, yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  So he's got to use a lot of athleticism just to get free to throw the ball. He's got to allow enough time to pass for his receivers just to get close to the goal line. And then he's got to be able to make that throw, and it's going to be in a crowd. So once it's tipped up in the air, I mean, it's anybody's guess who's going to catch it.

• 32:04Gary O'Reilly?

  I'll tell you what, that means a lot of confidence in your blocking and a lot of confidence in your own athletic ability, let alone your arm.

• 32:09Chuck Nice?

  The cool thing is, the cool thing is, he said, I saw they had three blockers, I knew we had six. I think six beats three pretty much every time.

• 32:18Gary O'Reilly?

  50/50 became 100, didn't it, very, very quickly? All right, this, there's another real college icon when it comes to Hail Marys and something that you've you've written about yourself, professor.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 32:31Gary O'Reilly?

  The miracle in Miami, Doug Flutie.

• 32:34Chuck Nice?

  The hail Flutie.

• 32:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, the hail Flutie. Let's go with that. So he's someone who who bounced in and out of NFL, but really came to the fore.

• 32:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Boston College, is that correct?

• 32:49Speaker 03

  That's right. So this is the day after Thanksgiving in 1984.

• 32:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  It was a rescheduled game, so CBS really had this one pegged as far as immortality goes. And, you know, they're behind the defending national champs Miami, they're in the Orange Bowl. You got swirling winds, storms brewing, headwind before the throw.

• 33:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  He's gonna launch that thing a little bit over 60 miles an hour. Little less angle than Kordell Stewart, he got some help from the headwind. Kind of like a sail going up, but it was quite a, just an amazing pass to Phelan.

• 33:27Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 33:28Chuck Nice?

  Now that you've set that up.

• 33:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, by the way, Eric, you could be sat here. Let's do it.

• 33:33Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, we might as well take a look at it.

• 33:42Chuck Nice?

  Flutie's back, he's scrambling around.

• 33:46Gary O'Reilly?

  She's on.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  Caught by Boston College, I don't believe it. It's a touchdown. The Eagles win it. Unbelievable. I don't believe it. Phelan is at the bottom of that pile. Here comes the Boston College team. He threw it into the end zone.

• 34:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow. That's unbridled joy. Look at, that's a dog pile in the end zone. It's a bench clearer, everybody's in there.

• 34:12Chuck Nice?

  That's amazing. I have to tell you, there's nothing better than seeing

• 34:16Gary O'Reilly?

  The joy.

• 34:17Chuck Nice?

  The joy of a game-winning play like that. And, you know, I guess you do it because you expect, look, this is where it is. And so you never do anything expecting to lose. But I would assume that the Hail Mary is an extremely, I would say, improbable play. If you were to look at everyone that's ever been done over the history of the sport of football, what would you say the percentage of success would be?

• 34:46Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know what the percentage is. I haven't looked at all the failed and made Hail Marys, but you've got to also imagine that you're even going to have a Hail Mary in the first place. I mean, you have to be somewhere around midfield. You've got to have, you know, be within a touchdown of either tying or going ahead. So, I mean, you have to have the optimization right at the end of a half or end of the game for even a Hail Mary to take place. I mean, you know, Eli Manning had one back in 2012 that ended a first half of a division game against the Packers. So, you just have to be at the right place at the right time in the game for that to even take place.

• 35:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Gotcha. You wrote about this particular play and the Hail Flutie and everything that surrounded it. Why did it stand out for you with such importance?

• 35:36Speaker 03

  For me, so I'm 14 years old watching this. Like I said, it's the day after Thanksgiving.

• 35:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  And, you know, we're talking about 1984, so we don't have cell phones. We can't have access to every single game that's on in the college football lineup. We had these things that people don't understand called game of the week. So, you get this one game perhaps on one network that you can watch, and that was it. You know, we're all sitting around watching this thing on television and, you know, jumping up and down when it happened. It was an exciting play.

• 36:09Gary O'Reilly?

  What's interesting for me is if you look at Doug Flutie, he's five foot 10.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 36:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Which is, in the politest way, if you're a quarterback now, that's vertically challenged. Short little man. No, we're going vertically challenged. He's a short little man.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  He's 5'10" if he's wearing cleats.

• 36:25Gary O'Reilly?

  I was going to say, and he's not even 5'10". The fact that that's got to change the angle at which he throws, surely, to get because he's in the land of giants. He's got a whole lot of pass rushes. He's got an offensive line in front of him. I mean, if he's just pitching it out like that, he's going to hit someone in the back of the helmet.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  It's not going to change his angle too much. I mean, keep in mind, the opposing quarterback that day was six foot five Bernie Kozar.

• 36:50Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  I mean, this, this really is a David Goliath moment. I mean, you got this diminutive quarterback, maybe five nine, uh, uh, with cleats and, uh, yeah, he's, he's hauling this thing from a much shorter distance, uh, above the ground.

• 37:03Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Uh, it's just going to have to throw it a little bit harder than Kozar would have. Although Kozar was slightly side armed, so.

• 37:10Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 37:10Speaker 03

  That would have, would have dropped his release height as well.

• 37:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and known for basically being kind of like a sidearm passer Bernie, Bernie was, so.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 37:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Um, okay, Eric, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't know, maybe they've got this wrong, but at Boston College, just prior to this particular game, was his quarterback coach not Tom Coughlin?

• 37:30Speaker 03

  Um, that I don't know.

• 37:32Gary O'Reilly?

  And don't they have a tie in with the Chargers in San Diego where Flutie ends up later on in his career? It, it, this.

• 37:39Chuck Nice?

  That would make sense.

• 37:40Gary O'Reilly?

  This, this whole thing, this is what I find with these hail Mary plays. They all weave themselves together. You look at the miracle in Michigan where.

• 37:47Chuck Nice?

  He has just created a hail Mary conspiracy. I love it.

• 37:50Gary O'Reilly?

  That's why, that's why I'm here, just stirring it around, just stirring it around. You've got a Heisman winning running back blocking for a future Pro Bowl. You've got another guy and, and this whole stellar team. And then all of a sudden you've got this little quarterback. Turns out his quarterback coach in the previous couple of years was his future coach. So this whole stuff is intertwined. I'm going to be quiet now.

• 38:11Chuck Nice?

  No, no, man, that makes sense. I mean, but, uh, uh, you know, if, when you coach a player.

• 38:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 38:16Chuck Nice?

  And you like what he does, uh, uh, you know, you're more inclined to have that player on your roster once you become a head coach in the NFL. But, uh, I, you know, I really think that Doug Flutie's, the only problem with Doug Flutie was the fact that he was, you know, very short. To be honest.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  It's hard to survey the field when you're that short.

• 38:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I think that was his biggest problem.

• 38:37Gary O'Reilly?

  He went on to be a Pro Bowl.

• 38:38Chuck Nice?

  He went to be, yeah, but you know, the fact is I don't think he ever lived up to the potential that he could have had in the NFL. And I really do think it's, it's a matter of size. And when you think about quarterbacks today.

• 38:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow, yeah.

• 38:49Chuck Nice?

  They're all six feet something, you know, think about all the guys that are coming. out of drafts right now. You don't have any small, right now, I think the smallest guy is um is what Drew Brees? Like, how many guys are smaller than than Drew Brees?

• 39:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Aaron Rodgers is six foot two.

• 39:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, yeah.

• 39:07Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  Cool. Don't forget that Flutie was the first quarterback to go over 10,000 yards in college and he picked up a little trophy a few weeks after that play.

• 39:16Gary O'Reilly?

  He did.

• 39:16Chuck Nice?

  Heisman, yeah.

• 39:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so did this miracle in Miami, do you think, affect or was the voting already done for the Heisman?

• 39:25Speaker 03

  From what I've read, the voting had already taken place. He beat Keith Byers by a pretty good margin anyway, from what he'd already done, so.

• 39:32Chuck Nice?

  I remember Keith Byers because he ended up going to the Philadelphia Eagles.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 39:37Gary O'Reilly?

  That looks like a good move from your point of view.

• 39:39Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, no, I would have rather had Doug Flutie, believe you me.

• 39:44Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 39:45Chuck Nice?

  We gotta take a break.

• 39:45Gary O'Reilly?

  We are gonna take a break. Eric, please stay with us. When we come back, we'll put a few more Hail Marys under the microscope with our good professor Eric Goff, so please do not go away.

• 39:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, we're back here on Playing with Science and we are looking still at the science of the Hail Mary pass in football. And joining us via video call, we have Professor Eric Goff of Lynchburg College and author of Gold Medal Physics, a book we highly recommend that you go and check it out. Um, okay, Eric, your best ever Hail Mary. Okay, we're gonna do this. All right, I'll reinvent this. The Holy Trinity of Hail Marys. Give us your one, two, and three, please.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Well, Flutie's probably my favorite just because of, you know, my age when it happened, but I gotta say the the Aaron Rodgers throw um back in January of 2016 against Arizona, that was uh.

• 40:43Gary O'Reilly?

  That was amazing.

• 40:43Speaker 03

  That was one for the ages. Um, I mean, he he gets the the ball out of the shotgun. He's gonna be releasing this ball with it. I think it was about a 61 yard uh horizontal travel for that ball.

• 40:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  And I had done a calculation. I mean, he he's releasing this thing about 56, 57 miles an hour, um about 47 degrees above the horizontal. And it did go about 20 yards up in the air. It's maximum height. So, I mean, it was a, you know, nice, beautiful pass. Um. Air drags about 22% of the weight of the ball when he lets go of it.

• 41:19Chuck Nice?

  Ooh.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  I mean, this, this, this was just a, a perfect spiral, a perfect pass.

• 41:24Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, man, um, actually.

• 41:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Some Motown.

• 41:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I gotta tell you, man, the, the way you just described it, I think we should just actually, uh,

• 41:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Aaron Rodgers has played with science.

• 41:33Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, Aaron Rodgers right now just called in and said, hey, thanks, Eric. That was great. Uh, I would take a listen and a look.

• 41:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Some Motown in the show.

• 41:41Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  Did the receivers get far enough down the field?

• 41:47Speaker 05

  Rodgers.

• 41:47Chuck Nice?

  Whoa, scrambling like crazy.

• 41:49Gary O'Reilly?

  He's buying time. Look at him. Look at him. Whoa, the ball's gone out of shot.

• 41:54Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 41:55Speaker 05

  In the end zone, it is caught for the win.

• 42:00Chuck Nice?

  It's Richard Rodgers, right? Aaron Rodgers, because I remember Aaron Rodgers and Richard Rodgers.

• 42:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Rodgers throws to Ro- Rodgers throws, Rodgers catch.

• 42:09Chuck Nice?

  Yo, that, that is amazing. That.

• 42:11Gary O'Reilly?

  That's awesome.

• 42:12Chuck Nice?

  That, that, now here's what I love. The ball, now you know the NFL, we're talking the NFL, these are the best cameramen in the game, period. The ball goes out of frame.

• 42:22Gary O'Reilly?

  It goes out of shot.

• 42:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Because he's pitched, he's thrown it so high. He's supposedly throwing it right up into the rafters to give him, Eric, yes, to give his receivers time. He's, he's playing with enough time. He's bought enough time in the pocket and coming out and scrambling. And then you see him slow down and slow down because he can see his receivers aren't in position yet and he buys them even more time?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 42:44Gary O'Reilly?

  With the arc of his part. Amazing. Amazing how ingenious.

• 42:48Speaker 03

  And to throw it that far, he's gonna need to throw it a little bit more than 45 degrees. So anyway, so uh, the, the flight time of these things might be three or four seconds. So he, he's definitely gonna have to give his players, you know, maybe five seconds to get down the, down the field.

• 43:04Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and the thing about this is, he did this twice in the same season.

• 43:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Just showing off.

• 43:09Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. So he actually did it with the Arizona Cardinals as well, or against the Arizona Cardinals as well. Uh, so just, you know, and, and on top of that, uh, um, you know, I believe at the time he was still dating Olivia Nun. So, Mun, so, um.

• 43:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so your jealousy is just kicked in again.

• 43:26Chuck Nice?

  Right now, here's what I've just discovered. I hate Aaron Rodgers. Okay, there you have it. Okay.

• 43:32Gary O'Reilly?

  See, I'd like to think, because I'm obviously in a mindset where I like a conspiracy theory, but he's actually picked out Richard Rogers. Because he just wants the record books to say, and Rogers throws, Rogers catches.

• 43:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, which makes it look like he threw the ball, ran downfield, got into the end zone, and caught his own touchdown.

• 43:54Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm that good.

• 43:55Chuck Nice?

  I'm that.

• 43:55Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm that good, I can catch my own passes.

• 43:58Chuck Nice?

  Second base, Bucks Bunny, third base, Bucks Bunny. So, yeah, that's very cool, man.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  And those dreaded laws of physics are keeping him from doing that.

• 44:06Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, let me ask you something. So, um, what would have to be possible? What would it take, and the laws of physics, to be possible to make the play we just said happen? Which, by the way, I don't know if this is true or not, or if it's camera work, but there's a guy on YouTube who throws, have you seen that guy?

• 44:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 44:28Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 44:30Chuck Nice?

  So, there's this guy on YouTube, Eric, and maybe you can tell us whether or not this is like camera tricks, or if this guy does it. But he's a young kid, and I think this is before he ever, like, got drafted to a college. I don't know his name, but anybody can look this up on YouTube.

• 44:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Chuck Nice?

  A kid throws a pass to himself, and he launches what looks like a Hail Mary to nobody, takes off running like you can't believe, and then ends up under his own ball. Do you guys have that clip?

• 45:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Of course we do. We have access to everything.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  Check out this phenomenal video that was posted on Vine a few days ago. That's Gary Haynes actually passing to himself. The Manville, Texas, high school cornerback became an internet sensation overnight after posting himself throwing out 40 yards, then sprinting fast enough to catch the ball with seconds to spare. Unbelievable, right?

• 45:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, he's worked out the elevation angle.

• 45:25Chuck Nice?

  He really has.

• 45:26Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, it's not quite a vertical throw, and it does travel distance.

• 45:29Chuck Nice?

  Well, it's 40 yards, so, Eric, what's necessary to make that kind of happen?

• 45:34Speaker 03

  So, was that really 40 yards? I mean, it looked a little shorter, but it's hard to tell from that video.

• 45:40Gary O'Reilly?

  True.

• 45:41Speaker 03

  He certainly needs to throw it at a fairly steep angle to give it enough time in the air to be able to run under it.

• 45:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:47Gary O'Reilly?

  So we're thinking, what if, they said he was a cornerback of safety?

• 45:50Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 45:51Gary O'Reilly?

  So what do you think his speed's gonna have to be to kind of get there in time?

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Well, you know, typical accelerations are gonna be like five yards per second every second. Then, you know, as a sprinter type speed, he's gonna get up to maybe 10 feet per second. Uh, or sorry, 30 feet per second when he's running, you know, maybe 10 yards per second. So we're looking at maybe 20, 21 miles an hour.

• 46:14Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Um, at top speed.

• 46:16Chuck Nice?

  That's, that's, that's like professional sprinter speed to, to, to get that fast, that quickly, right?

• 46:23Speaker 03

  Sure. I mean, he, I mean, he's gonna be a little short of the, of a Usain Bolt.

• 46:27Chuck Nice?

  Usain Bolt, of course.

• 46:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Of course, yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  But he's gonna have to, uh, you know, get close to that 30 feet per second if he's gonna catch something that, that, you know, 40 yards down.

• 46:36Gary O'Reilly?

  But if we've learned, if we've learned any things from doing playing with science is that you, you are, when you watch this, this defensive secondary, looking at super elite athletes. These guys could, if they'd have taken a different pass, end up on the Olympic sprint team.

• 46:53Chuck Nice?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 46:54Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, so it wouldn't be a surprise if this.

• 46:57Chuck Nice?

  If this kid wasn't an Olympic caliber sprinter.

• 46:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Was able to, to drop those sort of numbers in terms of sprinting. So the fact that he's showing off catching his own pass, well, that's.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  Well, don't forget, uh, he's not wearing 15 pounds of pads either.

• 47:12Chuck Nice?

  Oh, you know what? Didn't even take that into consideration because that's gonna slow you down just a little bit, right?

• 47:19Gary O'Reilly?

  They don't do that in the combine, do they? They don't, they don't rock up in pads and stuff and they clock them at whatever it is.

• 47:24Chuck Nice?

  They give you, your, your speed's as recorded. So when they, when somebody says, yeah, he's a 4240, they're, that's not with pads on. That's just your regular, you know.

• 47:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Unless you're Deion Sanders and you turn up in just a pair of ordinary street shoes. Do your sprint, walk off and get in a limousine and drive away.

• 47:39Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 47:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Or so the theory goes.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  Well, you better take those 40 yard times with a grain of salt, too.

• 47:45Chuck Nice?

  Why's that?

• 47:46Speaker 03

  Well, there was an analysis done of, if you remember the 88 Olympics when Ben Johnson was, uh.

• 47:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, yeah, Canadian sprinter.

• 47:53Speaker 03

  Gold medal was removed because of steroid use. Uh, someone had analyzed his, uh, 40, first 40 yards in that race. And of course he's not wearing pads and it was something like 4.38 seconds. So a lot of those 40 yard times have to do with uh who's actually doing the timing. Uh when do you actually hit the start uh on their clock, that kind of thing. So you a 4.2 is really, really fast.

• 48:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's very, very fast. Um and there's a couple of guys I think in the NFL that have that kind of speed, but not for long. That's the other thing, too. You might have that speed, but um you know, you play in the league for three years, you don't have that speed.

• 48:33Gary O'Reilly?

  I think we're gonna have to, well, I think we're gonna have to investigate.

• 48:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 48:36Gary O'Reilly?

  The NFL Combine.

• 48:37Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. Well, all I know is I run an 11 second 40 yard dash, and so there you have it.

• 48:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Fair enough. Some people are gonna be thinking about that for a second.

• 48:48Chuck Nice?

  All right. Hey, any parting thoughts uh for us, Eric, when it comes to the Hail Mary? Uh what what it is from a physics standpoint that makes it such a great play in football for you?

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Well, to me, the athleticism of the quarterback, to be able to give the receivers enough time to get down the field. I mean, that that play with Rogers when he was uh throwing the Hail Mary against Arizona, he took just over four seconds to release his pass after the snap.

• 49:14Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  I mean, he's got to be able to survive in that pocket and scramble out of the pocket for about four seconds just to give his uh receivers time to get down the field. So there's a lot going on in that quarterback's mind before that ball even leaves the hand.

• 49:28Gary O'Reilly?

  How many calculations uh do you think a quarterback is making from snap to release?

• 49:37Speaker 03

  Well, I I've I've heard quarterbacks have an internal clock and you know, for normal type plays, they know they have to get the ball out at a certain amount of time before they get, you know, blindsided by by the rush.

• 49:49Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it's a little under three seconds.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they have to have been able to practice these uh Hail Mary throws. So they they're gonna have to recalibrate their internal clock for a longer throw like that. Uh so they they've got to be able to both visualize where the receivers are and then have a sense of what's uh rushing up behind them.

• 50:08Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 50:08Gary O'Reilly?

  That's incredible.

• 50:09Chuck Nice?

  That's amazing. That's amazing. Hey, Eric, once again, man, thanks so much for being with us. You're always such a wonderful addition to the show. Thanks so much.

• 50:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Shed a lot of light onto that. Thank you. You're welcome. So Chuck.

• 50:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, man.

• 50:22Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, we've talked about the athleticism of NFL players and college players. But then you're looking at the mental aptitude of a quarterback, not just to have the arm to throw, but to have the all-round composure, the presence of mind, the athleticism to be able to just stretch time. And this is why I think once you, once as the professor did, sort of opens up the book and shows you exactly what goes on behind it and the mechanics, it makes it even more miraculous.

• 50:52Chuck Nice?

  And you know what I love most about the Hail Mary is, like Eric just said, the athleticism of the quarterback. What I love most about it is the fact that it is equal parts execution of a practice play.

• 51:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Chuck Nice?

  And improvisation, because no Hail Mary play is going to be executed the way you practiced it, because there's always got to be some scrambling.

• 51:18Gary O'Reilly?

  There's another team on the field.

• 51:19Chuck Nice?

  Right, there's another team on the field, right. And these guys are trying to kill you. And so.

• 51:23Gary O'Reilly?

  They don't do that in practice.

• 51:24Chuck Nice?

  Right. So I love the fact that in order for it to happen, it's all these things have to come together, but it's this play that you've definitely practiced, but you never know how it's going to go. And you can actually see the guys creating the play on the field as it's going down. So it's just, it's one of the most exciting plays that you'll ever see in any sport. So I'm really happy that we took the time to talk about it.

• 51:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, we are. All right, that's it for today.

• 51:52Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 51:53Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 51:54Chuck Nice?

  I'm Chuck Nice.

• 51:54Gary O'Reilly?

  And this most certainly has been Playing with Science. See you all soon.