#ICYMI - Surf's Up - The Big Waves

Aloha, Dudes! It’s time to shoot the curl when Gary and Chuck dive into the serious science of surfing the big waves. Their guides: California surfer – and NASA oceanographer – Bill Patzert, and, from Maui, pro surfer and the first female Big Wave World Champion, Paige Alms. Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on: TuneIn: tunein.com/playingwithscience Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360 GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjq SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-science Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-science NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/surfs-up-the-big-waves/

• 0:10Speaker 00

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  And I'm Chuck.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  And this is Playing with Science. Today, we head for the beach and we are so amped. Yes, we are. We may shoot the curl, we might have to bail. We will probably get mullered and if you understand any of that, you then are no Barney.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Dude, that's the only surfer term I know. You know, helping us to stay away from the gnarly stuff and steer us to the serious science of the big waves is William Patzert, oceanographer at NASA and super cool surfer dude himself from California. Then we go all pro with professional surfer and big wave champion Paige Alms, who is based in Maui.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I don't like her already.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  In that call. Right, there are few sights in sport that are as awesome as seeing a surfer take on the big waves, make that huge descent and then emerge through the barrel. It is breathtaking and possibly the most fun you can have with physics. And when I say awesome, I don't mean it in that cliched way. I actually really mean it is awesome.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It's a beautiful thing to behold, to watch somebody drop in and ride a wave and shoot the curl and come out at the end of that barrel and stand up. It really looks like a human being triumphing over the entire ocean. Take that, Mother Nature.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Albeit temporarily because we don't like to upset her.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  That's for sure.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  She does have a temper.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  So introduce our new best friend.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Our new best friend is Mr. Bill Patzert, who is a NASA oceanographer and a former surfer. Oh, I don't know. Should I say former? Bill, welcome to the show and do you still surf, my friend?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Okay, aloha dudes.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Aloha.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  You know, I could have been, I should have been a contender, but I spent too much time in the classroom, got my PhD, but I've been surfing now for over 50 years.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Way.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Mod surfing.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Take a bow, sir.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  That's fabulous.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  That is amazing.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  So that's a lifelong surfing career, really. You, you seem to have an unique approach on the sport of surfing, being an oceanographer. So has it been an advantage to have this, I'll call it inside knowledge, of the oceans as regards to getting the best out of your surfing?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the, the answer to that, of course, is yes and no. You know, it, it's one thing to know the physics, but it's another thing to be a great surfer. All world-class athletes, either you have it or you don't. And I definitely did not have it, all right?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  All right. Modesty is, we appreciate some modesty.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  What, what would be, what would be the, the biggest wave you actually claim to have surfed?

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Well, you know, back in the 60s and early 70s, I lived in Hawaii. I was at graduate school at the University of Hawaii and the, the schedule was you'd get up before dawn, get the surfers up, head for the North Shore, you know, either Sunset Beach or Makaha.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  The, you know, I can remember paddling out and all of a sudden finding myself looking down the face of a 25-foot wave.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  And thinking, what the hell am I doing here? All right? And so I definitely met, almost met my maker, but you know, it was exciting, it was exhilarating, and I actually dropped in and wiped out, and that was it.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Was that the extent of your big wave surfing career right there?

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Something, something you said about you going out to Sunset Beach pre-dawn made me think, because we're going to get on to where we find the biggest waves in the world. But you said, all of a sudden, instantly, a 25-foot wave pops up. Now, there's got to be a reason why, all of a sudden, a wave that wasn't there is there in an instant.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the great waves in the world are really a question of where the great storms develop, which build these great waves as they travel across the world's oceans. You know, in California, what comes to mind is the Great Mavericks swell north of San Francisco, where waves reach 50 feet.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that definitely separates the girls from the women and the boys from the men. And of course Hawaii is very famous. Waimea Bay, when Waimea Bay closes out on a huge day, spectacular, 50 to 60 foot waves. But you know, there are different places, Tahiti, South Africa, even in the Atlantic. Australia is famous for its big waves. There are even great waves that form offshore, away from the continents, that are totally phenomenal. So there are these unique locations around the world. And Kelly Slater will be able to tell you about that.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And then from a standpoint of oceanography, what causes the waves to form?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Simply, it's the wind blowing across the sea surface that develops these waves. Now, for large waves, there are three factors. A great storm in the North Pacific, how long that storm blows and continues to develop, the strength of the storm, you know, sometimes you get winds 100, 200 miles an hour.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  And then how large an area. So that's the duration, the strength, and the fetch of the storm. And now, of course, with here at NASA, with the advent of satellite technology, we monitor these storms all over the world. We can watch them develop. Strengthen, see how long they last, like with the giant hurricanes.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  A lot, couple of weeks, alright? And using models, we can actually forecast how large and when these giant waves will arrive at various locations across the planet.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  So you, your phone rings or you get an email from basically all the top surfers in the world who wanna ride the big stuff?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Oh yes, so these guys are definitely tuned in to wave forecasting websites. So you know, you can get on your iPhone and look at where the giant waves are going to arrive, whether it's California, Tahiti, Australia. You know, these are, these waves are the great, what I call the great world travelers. They travel all the way from the Southern Ocean around Antarctica, all the way to California. And we can forecast these waves almost a week ahead of time.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Wow, that's got, that's a surfer's dream. You have a whole week and you, and, and to get there and, and, and are they, are they, are they ever disappointed to you ever like, you know, hey, you're looking at thirty footers and forty footers and you end up with, you know, five footers? Is, does that ever happen?

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, of, of, of course, you know, like all great forecasters, they blow a forecast. But what they, these models, what they do is they take the information from these great storms and they feed it into models. And then at different locations across the planet, they actually have these buoys out in the ocean that measure the waves.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And so you can update the model, alright, to verify it.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  That's super cool, man. So, uh, let me ask you this, switching gears just a little bit. Um, back to you being a surfer, what makes a good wave?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Well, you know, these great storms, they generate waves of many wavelengths from, you know, a few inches or a few centimeters up to waves that have three to four hundred feet of wavelength. Now, the interesting thing about waves is that depending on the wavelength, the length between the peaks and a big swell.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  The longer wavelengths travel faster. And so the first waves to arrive from a giant storm are usually these very small, some smooth, long-period waves. Right. The precursors. And of course, these are the waves that surfers love. You get essentially anywhere between fifteen and twenty-five seconds between the peaks. And if the storm is large enough, these great swells can generate waves anywhere between ten, twenty-five, thirty, even forty-foot waves. And of course, the real surfers, the guys that and the gals that live the sport,

• 9:42Speaker 02

  these are the waves they love. They're smooth. Mm-hmm. They have one large wavelength. And, uh, and of course, a- a- as they hit, these, these are the waves that, uh, definitely all surfers live for. And, uh, but that is interesting, that waves, the longer waves travel faster. And so usually, they're the first to arrive. Follow the next day usually by, uh, what we call storm surf, which is mixed surf of all different wavelengths. Yeah, okay. Many surfers call slop. Slop, yeah. Yeah, and so the, what you want are these long-period waves

• 10:26Speaker 02

  that are the first arriving waves. Gotcha.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  So it's a, it's a small window of opportunity if it's only going to last a day or so?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yes, the, the, you know, the, the best waves are usually less than one day.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  And you're gonna, you could travel half of the way around the world or further, just for one day on the board?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  I've forecasted waves, these waves, of course, I call them great travelers.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  They travel across what we call great circles, which is the shortest distance.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  From one place to another. But I've seen great storms in the Indian Ocean. And more than a week later, they arrive on the coast of California. And so these are truly world travelers.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Wow. Wow. And that's from the same weather system, the same storm that created that one wave. And that wave, so why is it that the waves, is it just a matter of inertia? Unless they're disrupted, they will continue to travel around the world as long as they don't encounter any other force to stop them from being that wave?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, exactly. There are cases, for instance, the great, a different kind of a wave is a tsunami wave.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  And some of these great tsunami waves that were generated in the Indian Ocean, they were actually measured in California and even in the Atlantic. And so these are truly great, yeah, great world travelers.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  That is amazing. That is amazing. That one single wave could pretty much traverse the entire, almost the whole planet.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, unbelievable.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  The other interesting thing is, is that sometimes you get giant storms in the northern hemisphere and giant storms in the southern hemisphere at the same time. And they can essentially merge and create even larger waves.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Oh, stop it, Bill. You're scaring me. You're scaring me, Bill.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  No, I like that. Wave sex. That's a little wave sex happening right there.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  See what you've done now. You've pressed that button in his head.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Oh, man, you just made the ocean very sexy, my friend.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  All right, Bill, while we hose Chuck down, we are going to take a short break. When we come back, more with Bill Patzert, our NASA oceanographer and lifelong surfer. Stick around. I'm sure there'll be more, none of that, Chuck, more brilliant news about surfing and the waves in the ocean. Stick around. We'll be back shortly.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Welcome back, I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  And this, of course, is playing with science, but with a little bit of surf action thrown in. And we'll be talking surfing and wave science with NASA oceanographer Bill Patzert. And we like Bill because he's unlocked quite a few secrets for us so far.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, he really has. And you know what, we're not giving him his due. It's actually Dr. Patzert.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  No worries, we both did it. You know, I just wanted to make sure that people know that, you know, Bill is a PhD. We're not just talking to, you know, some guy who hangs loose on the beach and knows some surfing tips. This man has all bases covered.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Okay, Bill, let's get into a little bit of ocean floor and how that can create the monster waves that we see from time to time in certain places around the globe.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  And what's that place you were talking about, Gary, earlier? Off air, people. Gary was talking about this place in Portugal?

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Portugal's not possibly really on the map of the big wave sort of thinking, but it has a unique set of circumstances under the sea. We're going to sing that song, but I won't. So, Dr. Bill, please explain why Nazar on the west coast of Portugal is so special to the world of surfing and in particular, big waves.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Well, earlier we talked a little bit about how these giant waves are generated by these giant storms, the duration, the fetch, and then how they travel across the planet. And of course, when they approach the coastline, there are many different kinds of coastline, but the waves, essentially, when they start to feel the ocean bottom, so now we're talking about geology, all right? Is that the bottom of the wave will get cut out from underneath, like having your legs cut out from underneath you. Top of the wave moves faster. And this can happen over many different kinds of topographies.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Can happen over, for instance, when you have ocean canyons that come offshore, or ridges on both sides of the canyon. As the wave eels it, you can get these unique kinds of waves. Another kind of wave are the waves that break in the Pacific, like off Hawaii and Tahiti, where they hit very rapidly. A reef face.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Get these phenomenal waves which create these heavy, heavy tubes that are so very photogenic.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  But you know, off Nazir in Portugal, there is a canyon and essentially it focuses the wave energy in such a way that giant either South Atlantic or North Atlantic storms as they approach the coast will create these gigantic waves. Now, if I remember correctly, I think the tallest wave that's ever been ridden was at Nazir off the coast of Portugal. I forget the chap's name, Kelly might remember, but I think.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Garrett McNamara.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it was a 78-foot wave.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  They estimated, right?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  78 feet, right. 78 feet.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  It's a totally phenomenal video.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and how, were provisions made for his, his family? Did they, did they do anything to help his family after he was taken from us? This young man who surfed this 78-foot wave?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yes, spoken like a true Grammy, man. You don't believe her.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, Bill. I love it.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  A lot of people have been hurt surfing, you know, including myself. We all made mistakes.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, no, really, this guy.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  There haven't been that many fatalities.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  No, no, no. That's why I can joke like that, because it really isn't. And I'm sure he didn't die. He didn't. Yeah. So what is success when you drop in on a 78-foot wave? I mean, do you shoot it and come out and does that make it success? If you, if you, if you wipe out at all, is it still considered riding the wave? What is considered success when you're dropping in on a giant wave like that?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Well, for me personally is being on the beach with that kind of a wave. I consider that success.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, we hear you.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  But you see, if you're gonna ride one of those waves. Oh, Chuck's.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  No, he caught me off. He caught me off guard with that one, I gotta tell you.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the three of us sitting on the beach would be successful.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  There you go. You know what, you might as well put some bikini clad women next to us while you're at it there, Bill.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Uh, dream on, you know. The, uh, but, uh, you know, the, the, the men and women that live for these giant waves, of course, is to drop in, you know.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  But they get towed in, don't they?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Right up the face of that wave and make it out the other end.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  But Bill, is it right, they get towed in? Because you can't paddle quick enough, because these waves aren't moving at seven, eight miles an hour. They're moving closer to maybe 25 miles per hour?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Well, you know, that's a, you know, uh, Lard Hamilton, uh, essentially he pioneered these giant waves. Remember, the longer the wavelength, the faster the wave.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  So the, the real trick, the physics of, uh, large wave riding is to be able to paddle fast enough to get into that wave.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  And some of these waves are just too powerful and too rapid. And so Lard Hamilton, uh, he, uh, pioneered this where they tow you in with a speedboat.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Uh, water ski and, uh, and, and actually build enough velocity where you can catch up with the wave and drop off the lip.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  So that, you know, that's really state of the art, all right? Now, for some purists, that's not acceptable.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  You know, I've seen, uh, some really powerful surfers actually can drop into what other surfers have to be towed into.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  But you know, that changed big wave surfing, though, the toe in. Aired by Hamilton and his buddies.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  All right. So if I'm, because I'm now an all pro surfer, just because I've spoken to you, I've absorbed all of that talent. If I'm going to ride a vertical face of a wave sixty, seventy foot high, what sort of physics is keeping me and my scrawny backside on this board as I descend?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And what is keeping that board on that wave? Because when you look at some of these guys, like, like Gary said, it's almost like a vertical drop.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Right. It is. It is almost a vertical drop. Well, the physics are simple. Is is that two things are working on a surfer. One is gravity, which tends to want to dump you into the water. And the other is buoyancy, which is your board, which keeps you on top of the wave. And and of course, it's a dance when you're on that board. Is how to use the gravity against the buoyancy, moving up and down the board, all right, to stay in the wave, on the board. And if you have to, for instance, switching from one side of the board

• 20:49Speaker 02

  or from the front of the board to the back of the board. And so this is the great dance that all great surfers master.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  So they've learned, they've learned to change the center of gravity on the board by this little dance that you said, either left, right, or backwards and forwards.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. All right.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  And and so the, of course, with the great surfers, like with all great athletes, this becomes almost intuitive. It is intuitive because it happens so rapidly. So rapidly. But you know, this is, you know, and and you can watch these people when they ride these giant waves is that such a high velocity with so much water overhead.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  And so much danger if you get wiped out. How they maintain their cool and maneuver on that board across the face of a 50-foot wave. It's, you know, that's a, it's one of the great, great athletic feats, I think, of any sport.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Speaking of, uh, tidal forces and big waves. Um, uh, could you surf a tsunami? Because when you look, when you look at a tsunami, like the terrible one that we saw, um, what was it in, um?

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Aki in, uh, in the Indian Ocean.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  In the Indian, in the Indian Ocean.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  When you looked at the resorts where the, where the wave came in, it didn't really look like, like a surfing wave. It just looked like rising water, like relentless, unrelenting, rising water. So my question is, is that how a tsunami works? Or could you actually surf a tsunami?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Well, and the tsunami is usually caused by a large-scale displacement, usually near a coastline in the ocean.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Right, like an earthquake or something, right?

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Whereas wind waves are at the surface of the ocean, tsunamis go from top to bottom. So in the open ocean, the tsunami is traveling at about 500 miles an hour.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Oh, get out.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Miles an hour, dude.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  That's, that's jet airplane speeds. That's amazing.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And, and it's, it's only, uh, you know, a few inches high in the open ocean.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  But as it approaches the coastline and it starts to feel the bottom.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  That wave, all right, will slow down from 500 miles an hour. But when it comes ashore, it's at 50 to 75 miles an hour. So that's three times faster than a wind wave. Not only that, it's a wall of water. And whereas a wind wave might have a period between wave peaks of 20, 25 seconds.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  A tsunami has a period of.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Twenty to thirty minutes.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  So it's never.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  See it coming ashore, it's coming ashore at fifty miles an hour.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Continuously for forty-five minutes.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  All right. And so that's a tremendous amount of power. And so, you know, that's a great myth that you're going to surf a tsunami.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, gotcha. So, you know, and that's what you hear about when you hear people talk about tsunamis is like, oh, dude, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna shred a tsunami. And like you say, it's just, that's, that's all for effect. That, that just never is gonna happen.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, the physics are all wrong.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  The physics are wrong. Awesome. Dude, that was amazing.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  Because you're a lifelong surfer, Bill, and you are a doctor, an oceanographer at NASA. What are your surf tips? If you had to give us one or two top surf tips, what would they be?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Well, the, the most important one is use sunscreen. All right?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Smart move, smart move.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, that's.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  See, he really is a doctor. He really is a doctor.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  You know, I've been putting my dermatologist's kids through college, yeah?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Oh, dear.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  So, you know, I would have used a hell of a lot more sunscreen, right?

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  And I would have been easier on my knees than my shoulders, all right?

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Okay, absolutely.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, like all great aging athletes, you know, my body parts are all wearing out now. And so what I look for now is I like a nice six-foot day on my boogie board, all right?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  All right.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Plenty of sunscreen.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  There you go. Plenty of sunscreen and enjoy the boogie board. That's, uh, listen, I'll take that advice.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll go with that.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  That's about as, that's about as, uh, as much as I can do anyway, you know?

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Well, you guys are still young and good-looking, you know, so, you know.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, look at that, zero.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  It's all a matter of opinion.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, oh, for two ain't bad, right?

• 25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Bill, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on board. Thank you.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, this was really fun talking about this stuff. I learned some stuff too, which is awesome.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Unlocking the science behind, and particularly the physics behind surfing has been really quite an eye-opener. So, to Bill Pancer from NASA as an oceanographer, Dr. Bill, thank you so much.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Okay, thanks, it was a pleasure.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  We are going to take a break, but please don't go away. You've learnt the science, now stick around and find out what it's like to ride the big waves. Yes, with the first female big wave world champion surfer Paige Alms. It won't get any better than this, stick around, see you shortly.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Welcome back, I'm Gary O'Reilly. And I'm Chuck Nice. And this of course is Playing with Science and today, as you will know, because you've been listening all the way through, is surfing and the big waves. Bill Patzerts has given us all of the data and knowledge about why, how, where big waves go and come from, but really there's only one thing we need, and that is what it's like to be on a board on a big wave, and for that, we need a surfer. And for that, we go to Paige Alms, who is not just a surfer, she is a professional surfer, but not just a professional surfer, she is the 2016 Women's Big Wave World Champion. Wow. Yes, Paige, welcome to Playing with Science.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Hi guys, thanks for having me on the show.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  You are so welcome, yeah. You, if I'm not mistaken, were the first female surfer ever to barrel at Jaws. How long ago was that?

• 27:13Speaker 03

  That was almost three years ago.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  What an incredible moment. How, how, when you emerged from that barrel, what were your immediate emotions?

• 27:25Speaker 03

  I was in complete shock that it actually happened. I had been dreaming about that wave and that moment for a very long time, and it was almost something kind of far-fetched at the time. Um, I'd been watching my friends who get barreled at Jaws quite often and just analysing what they do and the waves that they choose, and it just popped up and came to me, and I knew right when the wave looked at me that it was the one and the one that I wanted.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  I, I read once, when you, you barrel, that your nose drove it, the nose of your board drove itself into the face of the wave. Now, there's got to be a reason why that's a good thing, because I'm thinking, I I'm trying to get away from this wall of water personally, so please explain how that kind of works.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it's not just the nose, it's the whole rail line of the board.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  I was riding a nine foot four inch board, which is about a foot shorter than what I'd say ninety percent of um, the lineup was on and.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Oh, why did you go there? Why did you choose that in when you obviously bucking the trend?

• 28:41Speaker 03

  Um, well, it's what I felt comfortable on and it's a different board design that um, my boyfriend and I have been working on. He's my my shaper, so it's basically a shorter, wider um board that's basically made for using the rail line of the board to kind of, we say um, knife into the water, which is basically cutting into the water at high speeds.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  You're making me a surfer dude, Paige. I'm learning all the language.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's really, um, it's a more technical way of riding big waves than the standard hang on and ride the wave straight and go to the bottom. It's um, basically taking, riding a shortboard and doing this technical surfing that we do on smaller waves and taking it into big wave surfing. So basically I just rode a a smaller board that day and um, it was really clean and glassy and um, that doesn't happen very often at Jaws. Usually there's a lot of wind and bump on the face of the waves and um, that wave in particular let me in kind of, I would say easier than most and

• 29:53Speaker 03

  basically I describe it as the nose of my board pulling me down the face. It gave me um, momentum and speed um, to bottom turn and come up into the smooth cavern of a barrel.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Wow. Has your style, shape, length of board become?

• 30:11Speaker 00

  The norm, have more surfers picked it up, or is it just something that works for you?

• 30:17Speaker 03

  Um, well, there's quite a few of us riding shorter boards out there. I still, um, like the, the Jaws contest last winter was really windy and really challenging. And I ended up taking out my ten four, which is a board that I've ridden a lot out there. Um, so there's a time and a place for certain equipment. It's like skiing or snowboarding. You choose your, your boards and your tools for the day and the conditions. And for sure, there's a lot more people going shorter just because of the curvature of the wave and how, um, steep the takeoff is. A certain radius only fits in that curve. So if you're going on a 12 foot board on these waves, it just doesn't fit in the curvature of the wave.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  You've got the science down, haven't you?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're, you're, so do you, do you study the physics of waves? Uh, do so for surfers do that? Or is it something that's more intuitive? Because it's like, you know, you, you, you figure it out because you're experiencing it.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Um, I'd say a little bit of both. Like for sure, I know quite a lot about, um, why waves break and where and all of that. But definitely I'd say I would lean more towards just the feeling of being in the ocean. The more time you spend out in the water, it almost becomes second nature. Like it's not even a thought process more rather than just an action of knowing when a wave is coming or where to be. It's not, oh my gosh, am I in the wrong spot? Or do I need to be three feet more this way? You don't even think about it, you just do. So for sure, it's definitely more of an intuitive thing.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Have you ever had any real bad wipeouts on a big wave? Cause I've seen footage of you sort of descending on your backside down the face of what is a rather large wave.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Definitely. Wipeouts are kind of all a part of surfing in general. Like um when you're teaching a friend how to surf and they're kind of at the stage where they're feeling a little bit self-conscious because they're falling all the time and people are looking at them. Well, we fall all the time as professionals. So it's kind of a normal.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Um but in big wave surfing, it's something that I try to avoid at all costs.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  I've had, I've had plenty of sessions where I've gone out and ridden four or five really good waves in the course of a few hours and not fallen and not taken any wipeouts or waves on the head. And they've been very successful. Um but then a lot of those wipeouts, you learn things that you wouldn't learn from if you didn't have them. So.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  It's all a part of it. Like I've had, um I've broken my shoulder in Mexico on a big wave. And I've had some really bad um wipeouts and injuries here at Jaws. Um but like I said, they're all learning experiences. And if you're not pushing it, then um you're kind of playing it safe. And that's not usually how I like to do things.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Do you like to chuck?

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Calculated and crazy.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  Remember we did the NASCAR show, we talked about, the drivers said, if you're not in the red zone, you're not racing.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Similar, similar approach and attitude.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh surfers though tend to be, I mean, you guys are, I mean, first of all, there's something wrong with you mentally.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  Chuck, Chuck, play nicely.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Nah, I mean, I've, I've, I'd like I, I, you weren't here, but I said earlier in the show, I did it once and that was enough. Because being, being dragged along the bottom of the ocean and then come up and you're all, you have abrasions. You feel like somebody tried to waterboard you, like nature tried to waterboard you. You know, it's like nature hates me. It just tried to kill me. Um and then, and then you guys just get back on and paddle out again. Like you, okay, so you're a little crazy, but um at the same time, there's a real zen quality that you guys all seem to have about you. Is that because you're always facing impending death?

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Well, not all of my surf sessions are extremely dangerous.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  That's good to know.

• 34:23Speaker 03

  All after, after talking with you guys, I'm gonna go get in the water and it's probably only knee to waist high, so it's really small. Um, but yeah, for sure. In the big wave world, everyone that's riding big waves does have a little bit of a screw loose, for sure. You have to have that little bit of, little bit of craziness, I guess. But um, I like to say that it's calculated and like, I'm not just like, those wipeouts for sure happen, but it's one out of ten, you know, like most of my waves that I choose to paddle for and try to ride, I usually make.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  So it's, um, it's all a part of it. It's like, the love for the ocean is what drives you and being in the water and riding these waves, you don't get any other feeling like that. And um, you're riding moving mountains is basically how I describe it.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Wow, what a great way to describe it.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Very poetic.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Paige, yes, very poetic. We were told that there's a place in Portugal, Nazar, where the monsters really do rise out of the deep. And they can get up to a hundred foot high. Have you ever had the desire to think, yeah, I've got to go there and do that?

• 35:38Speaker 03

  Um, Nazar looks like a beautiful place. I, the wave itself, um, look very challenging and scary. It's not a picturesque wave. It's more about riding the biggest wave of your life. Um, I'd say ninety-five percent of waves that are, big waves that are ridden there are mostly toe surfing. Toe surfing is um, using a jet ski and um, there's a tow rope attached to the back of the jet ski. So you have a driver that is in charge of putting you on these waves and picking you up and rescuing you from harm's way.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  And you're one hundred percent relying on your driver to put you in the position on a wave of to ride and surf these waves. So you're.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  So you want to make, you want to make sure that your relationship with him is definitely in good standing before you go out there?

• 36:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. So you're holding on to a tow rope. Um, it's like, I don't know, fifteen to twenty feet long.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  And relax, I've already just put you in the spot and then um you let go and you have enough speed and you're in the right position and you just send it. Um it's a little bit different than paddle surfing where you're on a board that's probably four or five times the size as far as volume and you're relying one hundred percent on yourself and all of the lessons that mother nature has taught you in the past to position yourself and be in the right place at the right time and to paddle your heart out to catch this wave. So it's a little bit different. You're relying on someone else and a machine to tow you into these into these huge waves and that happens a lot at Nazare and uh it's

• 37:24Speaker 03

  absolutely insane. The wave just is a whole another bee. Um I'm sure at some point I will end up there. Um but right now I'm really just focusing on paddle surfing and big waves. That's kind of where I'm trying to um make my mark.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  That's pretty cool. All right. Be- before we have to let you go, thoughts and advice for young surfers and particularly the young female surfers coming through and wanting to be the new Paige Alms.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Come on, you know they're out there.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. I'd say if like if it's something that you truly love doing, then pursue it and give it all and um work really hard towards your goals and just believe that anything is possible and just put your mind to it and your heart to it and work as hard as you can and um you can achieve anything.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Very inspirational.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Isn't it?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  I tell you, as a young girl, I might go surfing this weekend.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  You see, gonna add another one to the list.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Paige, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time and we wish you well on the water for whenever time you go out there next, which is in about ten minutes' time by the sounds of it.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Do they still say hang, do they still say hang loose?

• 38:40Speaker 03

  Not really.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Kind of.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Do they still do the finger uh thumb pinky wiggle?

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, shakas.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so that's that's still cool, but but hang loose, don't you can't.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  We're dated.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  I I'm a little dated. I guess I would have to like I have to find somebody named Moon Doggy and and and.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Don't worry Paige, we'll talk to him afterwards. Absolute pleasure, you take it easy and it's been a thrill to have another female world champion on Playing with Science. Thank you so much. Oh thanks, three times. This has been our big wave surfing special with professional world champion big wave surfer Paige Alms and of course oceanographer from NASA Bill Patzerts. Hope you've enjoyed it, there'll be plenty more Playing with Science coming up I'm sure very, very soon.