#ICYMI - Rugby – Physics and Grit, with Todd Clever

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel… Scrums, lineouts, and spin passes – Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice take to the turf as we explore the science and grit of rugby alongside Todd Clever, former USA Rugby captain, and Trevor Lipscombe, author of “The Physics of Rugby.” NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/rugby-physics-and-grit-with-todd-clever/ Photo Credit: Hamish McConnochie via Wikimedia Commons.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:10Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:11Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. It is, as if you didn't know already. Right, today is rugby's turn to step into the limelight.

• 0:19Chuck Nice?

  Rugby?

• 0:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 0:21Chuck Nice?

  Oh my goodness, where the hell did rugby even come from?

• 0:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Rugby school, it originated, so the legend has it, by William Webb Ellis in 1823. He got bored with kicking a ball.

• 0:32Chuck Nice?

  So he was playing soccer and like most people, he got bored.

• 0:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Got bored, bad boy. He decided to pick it up and run with it instead. From then on, it becomes rugby football.

• 0:42Chuck Nice?

  Believe it or not, rugby is very popular on a global level and never once have the players worn pads. Oh my god, that is so ridiculous. And of course, if you've ever seen the game, they are knocking the stuffing out of each other.

• 0:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, they do, and they love it. And joining us today, I'm so pleased about this guest, he's a man who's played professionally on every continent.

• 1:05Chuck Nice?

  Every continent.

• 1:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, former USA captain and most capped Eagles player, yes, if you hadn't already worked it out, Todd Clever.

• 1:13Chuck Nice?

  Todd Clever!

• 1:15Gary O'Reilly?

  But that's not all we have, is it? To pull apart the science of this incredibly physical game, having played it, I can vouch for it being incredibly physical, will be physicist professor Trevor Lipscomb of Catholic University of America, the author of the Physics of Rugby. But joining us first, that man, rugby's Captain America.

• 1:35Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 1:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome to the show, sir.

• 1:37Chuck Nice?

  Todd Clever.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Thank you very much, thanks for having me.

• 1:39Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:40Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, let's get, for listeners who aren't familiar with the sport, can you break down a few of the basics for us without going way back to point one?

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's a complex game. It's 15 versus 15 is the original game. They've broken it down to 7 versus 7 as well, so a couple of different varieties of rugby. But it's continuous play, every player plays offensive, defence, you pass the ball backwards.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Uh, you tackle tackle hard, you you know, key to the game is possession. Uh, you know, you score a try, which is basically you touch the ball over the end zone.

• 2:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  And that's worth five points and then the conversion is worth two. Uh, so it's a it's it's it's a great game, a great spectacle game, uh, for for all kinds of fans.

• 2:31Chuck Nice?

  So, you know, when you when you look at the game, and I've been watching a lot of rugby since we knew you were gonna have we were gonna have you on. The only rugby I ever watched before in my life was something called Australian Rules Football.

• 2:42Gary O'Reilly?

  That's not rugby.

• 2:42Chuck Nice?

  That's not rugby, though.

• 2:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, gosh, no, that's no, no, that's.

• 2:45Chuck Nice?

  But but but I'm telling you, I what I'm telling you is this, I was watching Australian Rules Football.

• 2:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 2:51Chuck Nice?

  I thought I was watching rugby.

• 2:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, you're in big trouble.

• 2:54Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so so all I can tell you is, for the past couple of weeks since I knew you we were gonna have you on, I've just been watching rugby. Okay, like the real rugby. And I have to tell you, I'm kind of hooked. It's really a cool sport and it's amazing to me, the DNA imprint that it has placed on American football. It's really very much like American football in many ways, except that the, you know, the no pads, the action never stops.

• 3:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Chuck Nice?

  The drop goal, it's like you guys play every position on an NFL team all at once. Is that is that kind of correct?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, uh, you know, one of the old sayings for rugby is, you know, all skills, all players. So, uh, you know, if it's if it's kicking the ball, if it's passing, if it's tackling, if it's running lines, um, everybody's a playmaker. Everybody has an opportunity to score, uh, which which is which is really fun.

• 3:50Gary O'Reilly?

  I told you, you're built to play NFL. So, growing up in California, uh, why didn't you take that path? And what what made you gravitate towards rugby?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  The biggest reason why I started playing rugby is to to travel and see the world and to, you know, live in different, you know, cultures. My older brother, he played American football, he played rugby. And I kind of saw him, you know, you know, play his ten games in his high school season, summer day, summer double days, and, you know, travel thirty minutes for games. And then I saw him play rugby where he traveled across the world and, you know, got to experience different things, practice a couple of times a day, and it seemed like the guys were having a lot more fun. So it was an easy, easy decision to follow rugby.

• 4:40Chuck Nice?

  Let me say this, Todd. That is brilliant, because most guys join the Navy to see the world. You, my friend, have just upped the game.

• 4:51Gary O'Reilly?

  As Chuck said in the intro, there's no pads. There never has been, and I doubt there ever will be. How do you find people reacting to you when they realize you don't wear pads?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Um, the sport's growing, and and that's awesome. So more people are getting familiar, and they know what, they know what rugby is. And, I mean, they think, you know, a couple of screws are loose in the head. But once they, once they experience it and see it, um, you know, it's a, it's a bit of an elegant violence.

• 5:20Chuck Nice?

  That's a great way to put it. I was gonna say, like, it's a beautiful gang war. That's kind of the way I termed it, but I like elegant violence a little better. It's a bit more poetic.

• 5:30Gary O'Reilly?

  The way it was always described back in England is rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen, and football is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans. Yeah, exactly. But the discipline of rugby players is outstanding. There's probably none or very little back chat to an official. What also, Chuck, is incredibly physical, and the big boys don't mind smashing into the little guys.

• 5:55Chuck Nice?

  I know.

• 5:56Gary O'Reilly?

  And there's, there's no sort of weight category. If you've got the ball, you're getting hit.

• 6:00Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so now, I'm so glad you brought that up. This was something that, as I'm watching these games, that struck me as so odd. So, American football is highly specialized. You will have guys my size. On the field, you'll have guys Gary your size on the field and you'll also have guys Todd's size on the field. And for those of you who aren't watching us on StarTalkAllAccess.com where you can see the video. Todd is what you would call a monster, okay? Like just think of a monster with a lot of muscles and like Viking hair and a beard. And that's Todd Clever. So Todd, what Gary just said, as I'm watching these games, it really struck me. You'll have guys my size trying to tackle dudes your size.

• 6:44Chuck Nice?

  What the hell is that about? Fun.

• 6:49Chuck Nice?

  And what is wrong with those guys that they don't get out of your way? Because the guys your size, actually unlike in football where you can't lead with your head because you're not wearing a helmet. So what you lead with is a forearm. And I've literally seen plays where guys your size will forearm guys my size into the air. And away from their bodies as they plow on. Exactly like is that just because there are, okay, what are the positions? And how is it that a little guy like me would have to take on a big guy like you?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Um, there's to break down the positions, there's like I said before, there's 15 players on the field.

• 7:31Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, right.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Eight forwards and and seven backs. Um, so typically the eight forwards are your bigger guys. Um, you know, your front row are probably the the roundest guys, you know, probably not the fastest.

• 7:43Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Or more skilled.

• 7:44Chuck Nice?

  Diplomatically put.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Strong.

• 7:46Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Um, and then you have the second row, which is, you know, your, your, your kind of engine room. Uh, and those guys are around, you know, from six, five to, you know, six, 10 sort of, you know, big guys. Uh, and then you have, you know, kind of a mixture of, you know, of one of the big guys in, in, in the backs with skills and, and speed. Uh, and that's what position I play, you know, right now I'm, I'm six, four, uh, two thirty. Um, so, you know, you kind of have that and, and I'm one of the smaller guys in the back row.

• 8:16Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Uh, in the, in the forward pack. And then you have the backs, you know, guys, you know, your size, you know, you have to be fast, skilled. Uh, you bring something to the table, um, you know, other than obviously not the, not the grit and, and the engine room.

• 8:31Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 8:32Gary O'Reilly?

  What you learn earlier on, because I played number 10, so that's fly half. And guys like Todd would peel off the scrum and nobble me. Before I got a chance to kick, run, do anything, I'm looking upwards at the sky. He's completely just, and he's grinning at me because he knows that's what you do as a banker.

• 8:50Chuck Nice?

  You played rugby before you played.

• 8:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh gosh, yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Even after you pass it or kick it, you know, early in the game, you gotta, you gotta show your presence.

• 8:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  I'm breathing down your neck, so.

• 9:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, it's a calling card.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  That's part of my role.

• 9:03Gary O'Reilly?

  It's a calling card.

• 9:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Um, oh, by the way, for the rest of the game, this will be me.

• 9:07Chuck Nice?

  This is you. Right.

• 9:08Gary O'Reilly?

  I'll be doing this a lot. So what the thing is, the guys who play in the backs. You learn, guys like Todd.

• 9:15Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Don't have that compassion gene. That, that sort of, I love you, I'm gonna hug you. They have that, I'm gonna flatten you.

• 9:22Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:23Gary O'Reilly?

  So you learn shift and shake and move. There's, there's one where you, you will go into and then rotate into a challenge and try and get a torque and pull yourself out. Is that right?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  That's exactly right, yeah.

• 9:35Gary O'Reilly?

  So now how do you deal with guys that are trying that little move on you?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, it's, uh, like you said, those genes, you know, you really can't really care too much on, on sort of things. You got a job at hand and, and a task that you, uh, that you gotta complete, so that's it.

• 9:50Gary O'Reilly?

  So, uh, so you know.

• 9:51Chuck Nice?

  Before you go on further, because you said two things. One, you said you peel off the scrum and then send the guy a crawl, a calling card, somebody like Todd.

• 9:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Todd will do that.

• 10:00Chuck Nice?

  So can you please tell us what is the scrum? Um, and when you say that you peel off the scrum, what would that mean?

• 10:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so Todd will be part of the scrum.

• 10:10Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Now, the team that has the ball puts it in and it, but it has to move backwards.

• 10:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Right? Correct me if I'm wrong here, Todd. Now, you've got a line of backs that filter off from the scrum and.

• 10:23Gary O'Reilly?

  As that's moving, Todd will be reading the way the ball's gonna exit the scrum. And then he'll be eyeing up whoever he decides to have.

• 10:32Chuck Nice?

  So the scrum is the part where all the people are kinda hugging together?

• 10:36Gary O'Reilly?

  That's it?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  It's the eight forwards that I spoke about before. So you have eight on this team and eight on this team. And they scrum together. So the front row, the three guys right there. And then I'm on the outskirts where, you know, kind of, you know, exit and, and, you know, on defense or attack and be part of the play.

• 10:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 10:56Chuck Nice?

  So can I ask a Philadelphia Eagles question, please?

• 10:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Can I stop you?

• 11:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Here it comes.

• 11:03Chuck Nice?

  So, Todd, the Philadelphia Eagles, which happened to be my hometown American football team, have in the seventh round of this year's draft, they picked a guy by the name of, if I'm not mistaken, give me a second, Jordan Malata or Malata. Jordan Malata. He's a guy who's a little bigger than you and runs like a squirrel. Like he's so, the way he darts about, he looks like an unreal version of a video game that was programmed to play rugby. Are you familiar with him? And how do you think he'll do in the NFL?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I am familiar with him, yeah. So, you know, especially whenever there was a hype of him, you know, possibly moving to, moving to NFL or giving it a go. I have some friends that are, you know, NFL agents and, you know, they've, they've reached out to me in the past from, you know, guys that wanna do crossover and join, join the league. You know, likes of Jared Hayne to Hayden Smith. And then also, also, you know, a few other guys. So whenever this kinda comes over, it's a whole learning process. And, you know, guys, and like I said before, I've never played NFL and I know it's pretty complex with the... With a, you know, a whole playbook and, and, and learning it. So it's, uh, they're gonna come in,

• 12:26Speaker 02

  you know, very foreign. It's gonna be a whole different language. And, uh, you know, I know that, uh, Nate Ebner from the Patriots, uh, you know, a couple of time, uh, Super Bowl champion is, you know, played rugby and he still does, uh, you know, when he, when he's not, uh, winning Super Bowls. Um, and, uh, you know, he, he's, he's explained it really well of just how, how different the sports are. It's, uh, you know, athleticism gets you so far, but you know, you gotta work your tail off and, and, uh, really, you really challenge yourself the top, uh, six inches, you know, mentally, uh, to really, you know, commit into these, those, those roles in, in NFL.

• 13:06Gary O'Reilly?

  I, I wanna go back to the point you made, mentioned earlier on about the desire to travel, understand, learn, see the world. You ended up in New Zealand. Now, if there was one place on the planet you go with, yes, that, and the hacker and everything else, that must have been a whole new experience for you to play professional rugby. Don't worry about him. He'll be doing that forever. And, um, just, how big a difference was it? Cause you've played in South Africa, you've played in England, you've probably, yeah, Japan, but New Zealand. New Zealand's gotta be the coolest, man. I'm gonna tell the truth. Yeah, cause it's like a religion there.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. You know, that's exactly, uh, the reason why I went down there. Um, I was, you know, finished my third year at university and, uh, you know, just a couple of semesters away, had this opportunity to, you know, move to New Zealand and try out for a contract, play club rugby and try out is it, is it. And I just put all my eggs in one basket and, uh, you know, was very thankful for, you know, our, our USA sevens coach at the time, uh, John McKittrick. He was, he was, uh, a coach down there for a club and, and, and part of, uh, the, the professional setup. So I can get you a tryout and everything else. And that was enough, all I needed, you know, and, and that's what I, uh, you know, went forward with. And it was, it was completely, you know,

• 14:33Speaker 02

  All eggs in one basket, going for it all. And, you know, everything, like you said, like you said, it's religion down there.

• 14:41Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  The club rugby scene's fantastic, you have Super Rugby, and then you have the New Zealand All Blacks, which, which are gods, you know, among the earth. You know, if you don't know anything about rugby and you know one thing, it's that you know about the the New Zealand All Blacks and the Hakka.

• 14:55Chuck Nice?

  Do you get to do that before every match? Or, and for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, um, there is kind of like a warrior ritual that happens before the match where the team, they do, the, I guess it's the team captain who calls out. And he, I, I don't know what he's saying, but he's like, and then everybody on the team just like gets down into this crouch and then they go, they stick their tongues out and it's the coolest thing I've ever seen and I want to do it so bad. But does that happen before every game? Because the other team looks like, what the F is going on?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so every, every time, uh, New Zealand plays as a national team, New Zealand All Blacks, they, they perform the Hakka. And, uh, you know, as you, as you said, the other opposition, the other country that's about to, is, is, shows respect by, you know, staring it down in arms and just embracing their culture, embracing that, you know, the challenge that they're laying forth.

• 15:55Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 15:56Gary O'Reilly?

  There was one tape, Todd, I can't remember who it was. What was the team, the international team, that stepped forward while the, the All Blacks were doing the Hakka? Which, I was, I'm being told by my French producer, it was France.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  It was France, he's right.

• 16:10Chuck Nice?

  Is that disrespectful? Is that disrespectful?

• 16:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 16:14Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God.

• 16:14Gary O'Reilly?

  How did that go for France?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, you know, it, it's, it was actually embraced quite well from, from the New Zealand. It's, uh, you know, they're laying down the challenge and, and the French accepted it. You know, they stepped forward and they said, okay, let's bring it.

• 16:31Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  I, I don't think the, the, the New Zealand team was, was quite too happy and they, they showed their, their, their results.

• 16:38Chuck Nice?

  During the game. Well, all I can tell you this, Todd, is because of the Hakka, now when my wife and I get in an argument, I perform that before the argument happens. I say to her, before we argue, and then I get into my stance. And then she walks towards me and I end the Hakka.

• 16:56Gary O'Reilly?

  And she hits you with a frying pan. Right, on that note, we are going to take a break. Todd, you stick around because we're coming back. We'll have more with Todd Clever and we will have Professor Trevor Lipscomb, yes, the author of The Physics of Rugby. We're going to take that break. We will be back shortly.

• 17:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 17:17Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 17:18Gary O'Reilly?

  And this, of course, is Playing with Science, a very special rugby edition. We're exploring the world of rugby with former USA captain Todd Clever.

• 17:25Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 17:26Gary O'Reilly?

  But we are now joined to break down the science Professor Trevor Lipscomb of the Catholic University of America, author, as we've already touched on, The Physics of Rugby, as well as Albert Einstein, a biography.

• 17:39Chuck Nice?

  That's right. Wow. Professor, welcome to the show.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. Thank you for inviting me.

• 17:44Chuck Nice?

  And before we get to your backstory and how you got to rugby, just got to ask you, who do you like more, rugby or Einstein?

• 17:52Speaker 03

  It's a close call. I don't think Einstein would have lasted long on the rugby pitch, so I'm going with rugby here.

• 17:58Chuck Nice?

  There you go. Alright, so how did you, we've asked Todd how he kind of gravitated towards rugby. How's that story work out for you? How did you find yourself in the world of rugby?

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Well, like you, I grew up in England and so in high school you play a lot of rugby. And if I'd have carried on playing soccer, I'd only played for a really bad team like Crystal Palace.

• 18:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, they are bad.

• 18:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Naughty professor.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  So I started playing more rugby and studying physics in college. And one day, my physics career, my rugby career ended actually when I broke my neck.

• 18:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, gosh.

• 18:37Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  So I thought it was going to be a fun way of putting rugby and physics together, so I ended up writing a book about it.

• 18:46Chuck Nice?

  Very cool. Now, you know what, so just going to, you know, we were about to go down the road of physics, but now that you'd said what you just said, I just have to ask, since we have Todd on the line, and since you were injured so, I will say severely, there is a common conception that rugby has less injuries.

• 19:06Chuck Nice?

  than football because you're not wearing pads and football weaponizes the player by putting helmets on them. However, you just said you broke your back or your neck. Yeah. You broke your neck and, and, and, and I've, I've actually seen Todd um score a try by jumping over an injured player on the field while the player was being attended to. So clearly, clearly, there are injuries in this sport. What is the most common injury and, and how often are players hurt uh in this sport? Can you give us some insight? Yeah, Todd, please.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I, I, I've also heard and I, and I know that injuries are, you know, less common in rugby than football for, for the reasons that you mentioned. Um, but I think positionally, it, it depends on, you know, what position, you know, for, for the injuries that you, that you receive. For myself, as, as a flanker, I had a lot of trouble with my fingers and hands. I broke some dislocated fingers and, and broke some bones in the hands, but uh nothing that you can't tape up and keep on playing.

• 20:10Chuck Nice?

  Sure, easy for you to say. Easy for you to say.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  I was, I was quite lucky. I mean, you get bumps and bruises, you know, on the shoulders, you know, bruising legs from, from getting tackled. Um, but uh again, I was, I was quite lucky through uh my, my flanker to uh, to not sustain too, too, uh, too serious as, you know, unfortunate as a professor uh received a, a, a broken neck, but it's a, it's a contact sport and, and things happen. Um, but uh, but I know it is safer than, than, than American football.

• 20:42Chuck Nice?

  And Professor, from a science standpoint, if you could just tell us maybe why uh injury is less in rugby and then if you don't mind reliving your horrific accident for my entertainment, I would really appreciate knowing how you broke your neck. Don't indulge him.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  Sure. Well, one of the things that the science tells us actually is that the bigger a bone is, then the harder it is to break. So in many sports, what you're going to see, contact sports, you're going to see things like Todd said, where fingers and thumbs and toes might be easier to break, but something bigger like a thigh bone or your hip or your shoulder, it's going to be a lot tougher. Unfortunately, the bones in the neck are a little bit small, so they can break easily under certain circumstances. With the difference between rugby and American football, one of the huge differences is if I go and tackle someone in rugby, and I get my arm too high, then I'm going to hit them in the face. But

• 21:43Speaker 03

  in American football, sticking my arm out, I might actually just grab hold of the visor, right, the face mask, and create a huge amount of torque that's going to rip the neck around. Oh, sure. And so, and the other thing is, again, you can, it's a lot to do with friction, right? Your hand is going to slide off another human being's skin, but it can stick to a helmet. So again, you can get these whiplash injuries, these horse collar injuries, because the friction from hand to equipment is different from hand to hand or hand to leg. Okay.

• 22:21Gary O'Reilly?

  So the other thing is, now there are certain codes, we'll focus on rugby union rather than the league and the sevens, but in terms of rugby union, about tackling high and spearing and all sorts of different things that have gone on in the past, which caused, which can cause horrific injuries. So the governing body, the RFU, seem to have brought in an updated code of conduct when it comes to tackling. Is that right?

• 22:46Speaker 03

  They have, yeah. And I think it makes the game safer.

• 22:50Chuck Nice?

  Cool. However, I must say that in my last few weeks of watching rugby, as opposed to thinking before then I was, when I was really watching Australian Wolves football, I'm, I'm so embarrassed. But I'm so embarrassed.

• 23:05Gary O'Reilly?

  You're in the right country.

• 23:06Chuck Nice?

  All these years, I've been watching Australian Rules football, which by the way, comes on very late at night here in America, and I've been watching it for years thinking I was watching rugby. And I just thought Australian Rules football was another form of rugby. But anyway, in the last couple of weeks, watching rugby, I've seen players, Todd size, actually fling guys. Like, you're allowed to grab the guy, and they swing the guy, and like, the guy holds on to the ball, goes out of bounds. But then, it's held against him for holding on to the ball and going out of bounds. Because he's holding the ball when he touches down out of bounds.

• 23:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Chuck Nice?

  What is up with that? Like, you flung me out of bounds, you're a monster, you're Todd Clever. I'm Chuck Nice, I'm this little teeny guy who should be telling jokes, but for some reason, I'm out here on the pitch. I have the rugby ball in my hand, you grab me, you throw me out of bounds, and I'm penalized. Why is that? Because you're Chuck Nice.

• 24:06Gary O'Reilly?

  What the professor said.

• 24:09Gary O'Reilly?

  What the professor said. So, you, we now worked out, it was like sort of multiple choice. Should I play rugby? You answered the questions like this.

• 24:18Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 24:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Definitely not.

• 24:20Chuck Nice?

  Definitely not.

• 24:20Gary O'Reilly?

  So, okay, Todd, I'm going to ask you a question, and I'm hopefully get the professor to explain a little bit of physics about it. As I was growing up, playing rugby, all of a sudden, I'd see players, when they got the ball, would spin pass. And it was like a whole new technique, because as kids, we were just chucking it left or right, and it's wobbling, and it's all over the place. But then, the players practice and develop this spin pass, a really tight spiral. Is that, from a player's point of view, what is the advantage of that? And then I'll ask the professor about the physics.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you mentioned from, you know, rugby, how it happened, and the rules, and... A lot of changes. Rugby is always evolving, you know, for the safety and for entertainment and, you know, all sorts of the reasons for the game. But for that reason, for the pass, I mean, if you're spinning a pass, you know, it's a long pass, it makes sense, you know, it gets there faster. You practise a technique, uh, you know, it's one of those things you do ten thousand times on each hand for your, uh, you know, training career. You can, you know, hit a dartboard from, you know, twenty-five metres away, twenty metres away. Um, and it just gets there faster and it's, uh, it's just more, uh, consistent and free-flowing.

• 25:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay. Professor, that's the player's point of view.

• 25:37Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Gary O'Reilly?

  From the science, why have players worked out that putting a real tight spiral on their passes is more advantageous?

• 25:46Speaker 03

  Um, it's due to a thing called gyro, uh, gyroscopic stability. If you spin something as you throw it, it wants to continue in that direction, right? You've got the same thing in American football, where you try and throw the ball downfield with a tight spiral. That spiral keeps something going in the direction it's been aimed. Uh, so again, in baseball, right, if you throw a knuckleball, it's got no spin on it at all and it goes all over the place, it's incredibly unpredictable. So that tight spiral will allow that ball to go straight where you aimed it and you hope that's straight into the arms of your teammate.

• 26:23Chuck Nice?

  Cool. So it's really a stabilisation thing. You get a longer pass and a more accurate pass because the ball has a rotation on it.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  That's exactly it.

• 26:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Todd, one thing I couldn't work out was to pass from my left to the right, because I'm right-handed. So I was, passing right, I was okay, but to pass, it was like, this is all wrong. How long did it take? And you just said you practise with both hands. How long did it take you to master? And how do you alter your technique?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, it's a, it's just one of those things, you know, like a switch hitter, you know, for, for baseball, you know, takes both, uh, you know, you gotta just practice, practice, practice. And ultimately, my left hand, like, I'm right-handed as well.

• 27:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Hmm.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  And that's how I started, you know, passing, just spinning past my right and then, you know, trying not to, you know, pass anyone to my left because I didn't have the skill. You know, so that, that was always my dummy move because, you know, I can't pass that way and just kind of run, run forward. Uh, but ultimately, if you're, you're playing at a higher level, a higher level, you, you gotta, uh, retain those skills. And, um, you know, in, throughout my career, I, I ended up becoming a better left-handed passer than a right-handed passer because I was, you know, you know, working on, uh, on, on that skill so much.

• 27:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Interesting. But the, okay, so the shape's similar in terms of a pigskin and a rugby ball, but there's no laces on a rugby ball?

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Not really, no.

• 27:52Gary O'Reilly?

  No, it's, it's a, do we have a pressure differential? Does that actually make a great deal of difference? We're getting into your favorite place in Flake Gate or Deflate Gate, yeah. So what, what sort of differences do we have in a rugby ball, Professor?

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Um, well, with a rugby ball, it's very much like an ellipse, right? Um, so it's a more rounded end than an American football.

• 28:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Ah.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Um, what's really happening when you spin the ball is you're actually creating a pressure differential, if you want to think about it that way, um, which can create something called the Magnus effect, which is sort of a consequence of the drag force, which I know you like here on, uh, on the show.

• 28:33Gary O'Reilly?

  You've been listening, Professor. I see you've been listening. Yes, thank you.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  You're welcome. And, and so that, so even though you're actually passing in a particular direction, it will drift a little bit.

• 28:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  So that actually is a problem if you're defending and the other team kicked the ball towards you. If you've got a right-handed kicker, that ball's gonna come headed straight towards you to begin with, but then it's gonna drift away slightly one way. But if you have a left-footed kicker, it's gonna...

• 28:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Drift in the opposite direction. And again, it's the same kind of thing that happens in baseball. If you've got a left-handed pitcher versus a right-handed pitcher throwing a slider, right, they're going to go in different directions.

• 29:10Chuck Nice?

  Correct. So now, we have discussed with respect to American football, the tight spiral bomb pass, which, you know, is probably the most exciting thing that we see in American football, aside from maybe a breakaway, like, 100-yard dash. What we learned is, from our other resident professor, is that the laces on the ball actually create that arcing path, where it causes the nose of the ball at some point to start pointing downwards, and that's how you get those beautiful elliptical flight patterns.

• 29:45Gary O'Reilly?

  The only time you'll get the ball traveling any distance will be through kicks.

• 29:49Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 29:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Now and again, someone will pass maybe 30.

• 29:52Chuck Nice?

  That's what I was gonna say. Is there ever a pass in rugby that's long enough to affect where laces affect the paths in football, where you don't get that?

• 30:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Todd? In a normal game, would you find any lengths of pass over 40 yards?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I wouldn't say more than 40 yards.

• 30:13Chuck Nice?

  That's a pretty good pass, though.

• 30:15Gary O'Reilly?

  I know, but you're always passing backwards.

• 30:16Chuck Nice?

  You're always passing backwards.

• 30:17Gary O'Reilly?

  You don't have that forward pass, because if you have a forward pass, then the referee introduces himself into the game.

• 30:22Chuck Nice?

  So how hard is that to pass a ball backwards? That's basically a lateral when you're passing backwards 40 yards.

• 30:27Gary O'Reilly?

  It sounds to you, it sounds completely counterintuitive, because you want to go forward.

• 30:31Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 30:32Gary O'Reilly?

  But if both teams are playing with the same rules, it kind of works itself out.

• 30:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah. So how difficult is it to get a 40-yard pass in rugby? Todd, and then Professor, from a physics standpoint, how difficult is that?

• 30:46Speaker 02

  I've seen a couple of them, and, you know, it's obviously not from anyone in the front, in the four-pack, the eight guys, the skill guys.

• 30:58Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  There has been a couple, you know...

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Big old wind-up Joe Montana passes, you know, but obviously they go backwards. But they also, what's happened is there's a kick pass where you can kick it across the field, that's where, you know, probably the farthest, you know, you know, pass

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  has occurred. But I can't say much more than, you know, forty meters from a pass pass.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  That's good.

• 31:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Professor, quickly, before we're gonna have to take another break, is there an equation so as you can consistently trap, catch a bouncing rugby ball? Because it seems the one thing that players, no matter how good they are, always struggle with.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  It's something that scientists always struggle with as well. It's an odd-shaped ball and the ball is bouncing on a surface that could be wet if you're playing, like in Scotland in winter, or it could be bonehard if you're playing sevens in rugby. So it can give you some guidelines, but you're on your own.

• 31:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Nice. Sounds familiar. Right, we're gonna take that break.

• 32:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. Our guest today, if you've just joined us, where have you been? Go back to the beginning and listen all the way up to now. Right, it was former USA captain Todd Clever and Professor Trevor Lipscomb of the Catholic University of America and author of The Physics of Rugby. And yes, we are talking about rugby still because we love it. We've got a new devotee, he's called Chuck Nice.

• 32:29Chuck Nice?

  Yes, man, I gotta tell you, I'm a fan of rugby. I mean, I actually find, as I said, it's definitely the child, I mean, American football is certainly the child of rugby, if not the, you know, distant cousin. And there are so many similarities that I see where I can see the development of American football from rugby itself.

• 32:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 32:53Chuck Nice?

  Except that there is a stoppage of play all the time, you know, which, believe it or not, I can't believe that I found that disconcerting. Because every time you would have the tackle happen, right, player goes down, you don't realise, because as an American football fan... And I'm like, all right, play's over. Let's break this up and let's set up at the line of scrimmage. No, these guys, they push the ball out, or they move the ball, or another player, another player picks it up. So.

• 33:24Gary O'Reilly?

  So, I mean, let's go back, listen to Todd. So, as it's, it's a continuation and there are, there are stoppages, but it's generally a free flowing game. How do you develop a physicality and mentality to remain in the game? Because you being, the physical demands are great as well as the mental demands.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, massively. I mean, you're, you're playing offense and defense. Um, you don't have a coach or, you know, someone making the calls from the sideline or up in the box. Um, after every down or anything else. So, you, you rely a lot on the captains, a lot on the playmakers. To, you know, what's going on. So, it, it's a very much players game. And, uh, you know, American football is very much a, uh.

• 34:09Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 34:10Gary O'Reilly?

  How interesting. Right. Because you're part of the scrum, and for me, the scrum was always, well, it goes in there and stuff happens. It's a mystery. Is, is, is, is there's definite, there's got to be definite techniques. And how do you manage? Cause there's all sorts of hand grabs and graphs and sort of things that are going on in there. So you better, if it's secret, don't tell me, but then again, tell me.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a, it's, it's a possession, you know, it, it, scrums happen whenever there's a, a forward pass or a knock on. Or, or a team chooses to, you know, have a scrum. And, uh, you know, there, there isn't anything dirty that, you know, goes on nine, nine, nine percent of the time. But, uh, you know, the front rows, uh, the, the, the props and the hookers, they, they, they think it's, uh, that's their, that's their art form. That they can express themselves and show dominance, uh, against opposition. But, uh, but for some fans, and I know especially number tens and the rest of the backs, they think it was pretty pointless and they, they don't think much of it.

• 35:13Chuck Nice?

  You know, Todd, normally you pay extra for a hooker to show dominance, but anyway, um, professor.

• 35:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Professor, ignore him.

• 35:22Chuck Nice?

  Come on, Todd's cracking up, come on. Professor, can you break down for me the physics of the scrum? Here are these people are all locked together, arm in arm. They're moving at, their heads are butting.

• 35:35Gary O'Reilly?

  They have to interlock without flashing each other, yeah.

• 35:37Chuck Nice?

  As a huge group, and then you see them moving almost as a unit, but imposing their will. What kind of physics is at play in that process?

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Pretty much, it's a question of force, right? Each team is trying to have the largest amount of force directed downfield, right? So if you're all aligned in the same way, you're going to maximize your shove down the pitch. Now, there's a way to outforce the opposition, right? If it's their scrum and they put the ball in, their hooker, the guy in the middle, has to hook the ball back with his feet. That means he can't push. So if your hooker is pushing, that gives you a sort of eight to seven person advantage. And if you look at where Todd plays as flankers, you can get your flankers aligned very close to the scrum.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  So they're pretty much pushing straight down the field. Or you can have them more at right angles, which will mess up the opposition's scrum half. Because he's got to take a detour around to get the ball.

• 36:45Gary O'Reilly?

  So how much force is there if someone like Todd, who's built like a tank with extra armor, starts to push and rotate the scrum? So what are we dealing with in terms of physics there?

• 36:57Speaker 03

  All right, so a good estimate is that a rugby player can push equal to about their own weight. So if you imagine you've got eight people's Todd size, which Wikipedia says is 213 pounds. So you've got about 16,000 foot pounds of force going on there. You also have torque, which is when you're going to try and rotate that scrum. That's usually when you've lost it and you're trying to mess up the possession for the opposition. Now, the other worry with the scrum, which is actually how I bust my neck, is that if you've got the front rows pushing not horizontally, but slightly downwards, then the entire scrum can collapse.

• 37:38Speaker 03

  What happened in my case was the two props got pulled over to one side. And so basically, the weight of both teams' packs went on my neck and...

• 37:47Gary O'Reilly?

  You're happy you know now?

• 37:49Chuck Nice?

  Oh, God, I'm sorry I ever asked.

• 37:52Gary O'Reilly?

  See?

• 37:52Chuck Nice?

  My neck is hurting right now. My neck is actually hurting.

• 37:56Gary O'Reilly?

  There's part of me says good, there's part of me says that's not good at all.

• 38:00Chuck Nice?

  Oh, man. Well, by the way, the physics is fascinating and it actually, it actually goes, it actually shows you the physicality of that particular process when it's going on on the pitch. That's amazing.

• 38:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, Todd, there's something that Chuck probably won't quite get to grips with, but the line out, right? When the ball has gone out

• 38:21Chuck Nice?

  Out of bounds.

• 38:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Out of bounds on the sideline, then it has to come back in as a line out. Now,

• 38:27Gary O'Reilly?

  back in the day when I played in high school, things have changed. You're allowed to pick up a player and all of a sudden it's starting to look somewhere between ballet and

• 38:35Chuck Nice?

  By the way, it's my favorite part of the game is because you get to pick the player up.

• 38:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Chuck Nice?

  And he gets to go higher. You pick him up so he can actually get high enough to catch the ball, which, I mean, the whole thing looks really cool. I mean, it just looks poetic. It looks very elegant, even though you guys are like huge

• 38:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Chuck Nice?

  and muscular. It's like the one part of the game that looks almost like a dance or like that scene in Dirty Dancing when, never mind.

• 39:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 39:04Chuck Nice?

  But you know what I'm saying.

• 39:05Gary O'Reilly?

  It just seems, Todd, it just seems wrong, but it's an integral part of the game.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, it's one fascinating game where you, you know, retain possession or you steal away possession from the opposition. So like when Chuck said, you know, you ragged all somebody out of bounds, it becomes, they, it's a turnover, so the other team gets that line out to throw the ball in. So it's, it's complex, it's very much thinking, got to outthink and, you know, speed and power. There's a lot that goes into a line out. It's not just, you know, pick a player out.

• 39:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  They're interchanging, there's moving backwards, moving forwards, looping around to, you know, to beat the other opposition to, it's a race up in the air whenever the, and get this, Chuck, the hooker throws the ball in too, so.

• 40:01Chuck Nice?

  Oh, hookers, is there anything they can't do?

• 40:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Physics, Professor, save me. Physics, have a line out before Chuck just disappears for half an hour.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  So I used to be a hooker.

• 40:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, you're not helping.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  Sorry.

• 40:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Go ahead, go ahead, Professor.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  So the hooker throws the ball in and physics shows without a doubt that throwing it to the big guy is usually a big idea, is usually a good idea, right?

• 40:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  And as Gary says, back in the day, you weren't allowed to be lifted at all. And you still throw it to the tall guy and he gets the ball. Now, actually, as Chuck was saying, it looks more like a ballet because it's got to be so well timed. The hooker's got to know exactly where to throw it, but also when the lift is coming, right? If you throw the ball way up in the air and the guys get the lift wrong, then it's going to go sailing over the guy's head.

• 40:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  So it's really a question of throwing the ball with precision and with practice so that everyone knows what they're doing at the right time.

• 41:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Super cool. Yeah. Todd, do you have a question for the Professor while you're here and we've got you together?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  No, I actually learned quite a lot about, you know, the scrums and, you know, the force and why the ball passes. So, I mean, you know, I knew the reason, I knew the outcome, but the technique, so that's, that's quite good.

• 41:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, let's, all right, before we, before we have to sadly let you go, let's ask you both the same question. Where is rugby headed in the future? And in particular, where is rugby headed in the US? Start with you, Professor.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  That's a difficult question to answer. I'm hoping it's, it's going to go away from the way that England plays rugby, right? England plays rugby like the New York Jets play football. It's ground and pound and it's not interesting, but they often win, unlike the Jets.

• 41:58Speaker 03

  So what I would like to see is a lot more open play. I'd actually like to see no lifting at the line-outs. I think the laws really need to change to try and increase player safety, but obviously I'm a bit biased on that point.

• 42:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  But also what you're going to see is more and more nations who've never played rugby or who've not been particularly good at rugby, their level of play is going to increase over the years and it's going to become a truly international game. Again, if you think when I was a kid with the World Cup, you know, there are many teams who are now made in the knockout stage of this year's World Cup in soccer who would never have qualified when I was young.

• 42:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  So that's great for the game.

• 42:39Gary O'Reilly?

  I agree with you. So, Todd, where do you see rugby going in the future? And again, in the US in particular, because I know you have an involvement down in Austin in Texas?

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I could speak about, you know, where the rugby is going in America, you know, quite easily. And it's an easy answer. It's moving up. You know, world rankings, we're getting better. We just beat Scotland down in Houston a couple of weeks ago. We've been dominating Canada, which we haven't in the past years. We've formed a new league, Major League Rugby, MLR, just started this year. And actually, semifinals are on this weekend. Finals are in San Diego, July 7th, at USD. And it's amazing how, what response there is of introducing rugby and people are experiencing it for the first time and

• 43:34Speaker 02

  seeing that camaraderie, seeing the respect. And, you know, there's an outlet for, you know, people that don't want to play football or parents that don't want to put their kids in football. There's youth rugby growing massively. So, you know, America's always been sort of the sleeping giant, you know, that's what England and New Zealand, they've always said, oh, when Americans kind of take place, you know, the sleeping giant's just waking up. And it's awesome to be part of it. I have interest in the awesome franchise that participates in the... Major League Rugby and you know we you know had a had a pretty good season you know and and now uh just just across the board you know the the sport's growing it's awesome to

• 44:19Speaker 02

  get it on TV and and and introduce it to to a lot more fans.

• 44:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Have you got a one line sales pitch to get people interested in rugby?

• 44:28Chuck Nice?

  Well yeah, put it like this, both of you, Professor Yu and and and Todd, you're talking to America right now, um you should play rugby or you should watch rugby because.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  It's a fantastic, fast action sport.

• 44:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Todd, you're up.

• 44:44Chuck Nice?

  Todd?

• 44:45Speaker 02

  I mean, uh, from from Chuck's side, I have to put in Hooker somewhere in there. Just a seller.

• 44:52Chuck Nice?

  Boom! You had me at Hooker!

• 44:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Job done. Todd, we've got the World Rugby Sevens, don't encourage him anymore.

• 45:03Chuck Nice?

  Well, that's my note, I'm getting a t-shirt, it's gonna say rugby, you had me at Hooker. Ah, gentleman, gentleman.

• 45:12Gary O'Reilly?

  He's gonna wake up in the middle of the night giggling, you know that, don't you? Before we let you go, Todd, we've got the World Rugby Sevens coming up in San Francisco. It's gonna be the Giants Stadium, uh, so how good is that gonna be to grab audience attention here in the US?

• 45:27Speaker 02

  You know, Rugby Sevens is an Olympic sport since uh just just got reintroduced to Olympics in, you know, uh, in Rio. And now that USA Rugby bitted for the Rugby World Cup, the seventh Rugby World Cup, and we won the bid. So we're hosting at AT&T Park in San Francisco, July 20th to July 22nd, and uh, you know, there's 24 uh men's national teams coming, 16 women's national teams coming, so from all parts of the globe coming in, and uh, it's it's it's gonna be able to showcase, you know, and and and first time we've ever hosted an event like this, and uh, you know, tickets are are are scarce, we're gonna sell out of the whole park of all three days, and it's

• 46:11Speaker 02

  gonna be amazing, and and you know, the countdown's fully on, and and really excited for for the public and and all the American fans, and obviously the players to experience playing in such an iconic stadium.

• 46:22Gary O'Reilly?

  It's 15 versus 15, but reduced to 7.

• 46:25Chuck Nice?

  7 on 7.

• 46:26Gary O'Reilly?

  And it's much faster, correct?

• 46:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, much faster. I mean, you play three games a day, you know, with breaks in between. But a whole tournament, you know, happens in three days. For the Rugby World Cup, 15 versus 15, that takes, you know, seven, eight weeks. In this, you can have a whole tournament in three days.

• 46:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Brilliant.

• 46:47Chuck Nice?

  Fascinating. Great.

• 46:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Todd Clever, thank you so much indeed. It's been a privilege and a pleasure. And you've got at least one extra fan here.

• 46:55Chuck Nice?

  Yes, you do. Both of you. Thank you. Thank you for turning me on.

• 47:00Gary O'Reilly?

  What a dry sense of humour you have. You must be British.

• 47:06Gary O'Reilly?

  What is it, the Catholic University, University Catholic?

• 47:08Chuck Nice?

  The Catholic University of America.

• 47:10Gary O'Reilly?

  America, a professor of physics of rugby.

• 47:12Chuck Nice?

  Physics of rugby.

• 47:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you. Absolutely brilliant, the pair of you. Really enjoyed our show on rugby. Yeah.

• 47:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, this was fantastic. Yeah, amazing. Amazing. I'm a fan. I'm just letting you know right now, for the rest of you who are listening, if you ever get the chance, first check it out on YouTube. Just check out Go on YouTube and check out some rugby games.

• 47:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Check out the Rugby Sevens.

• 47:30Chuck Nice?

  They have full, full, yeah, and then check out the Sevens. All I can tell you is this, if you're a real football fan, you're definitely going to be a rugby fan.

• 47:37Gary O'Reilly?

  You don't have to play it, but you will enjoy watching it. I guarantee you that. Well, I've been Gary O'Reilly.

• 47:42Chuck Nice?

  And I've been Chuck Nice.

• 47:44Gary O'Reilly?

  And I'm still Gary O'Reilly.

• 47:45Chuck Nice?

  And I'm still Chuck Nice.

• 47:46Gary O'Reilly?

  And this has been Playing with Science. Hope you've enjoyed our rugby special. We will catch up with you sometime in the near future.