#ICYMI - Extended Classic: Planet Soccer, with Neil deGrasse Tyson

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel… Re-visit Planet Soccer as we gear up for the 2018 FIFA World Cup with Chuck Nice, Gary O’Reilly, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and former NY Cosmos assistant coach and MLS All-Star Alecko Eskandarian. Now extended with physicist John Eric Goff telling us all about the new Telstar 18. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/extended-classic-planet-soccer-with-neil-degrasse-tyson Photo Credit: XiXinXing/iStock

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly

• 0:02Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice

• 0:03Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science

• 0:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome to Playing with Science, I'm Gary O'Reilly Today's show is Planet Soccer Chuck Nice of course will be with us As will be your own, very own, personal astrophysicist Dr Neil deGrasse Tyson And Major League Soccer's Alecko Eskandarian Former US Men's International Player And a player, and you're gonna love this, Doctor Who played for the LA Galaxy and the New York Cosmos So what better, better way to start the show? But, just as a teaser, just to let you know At the end, we will be talking to our very good friend Professor Eric Goff From Lynchburg College in Virginia Who has become a bit of a world export Export? Yes, expert even On the Adidas Telstar 18 ball

• 0:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Which will be used in the World Cup in Russia this year So stick around for that, I know he has tested it thoroughly Put it in a wind tunnel, written a paper And there isn't anything he doesn't know about it Well, I've said that, now I hope he does know everything Let's get on with the show, shall we? Stick around for the end, it's gonna be brilliant Today, we focus our steely gaze onto Planet Soccer And illuminate the science and technology And in particular, the new tech that has come into play And might well be over the horizon in the coming years

• 1:26Chuck Nice?

  And who better to bring forward the science and check if the tech is up to snuff Than our very own, personal astrophysicist Dr Neil deGrasse Tyson?

• 1:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes!

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, just to be clear, like most Americans, I'm less fluent in soccer than I am with other sports So my role in this conversation will be as someone who is fluent in physics

• 1:55Chuck Nice?

  Well, that's why you're here Neil

• 1:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, physics, just wanted to be clear I'm deflecting all soccer questions, specific soccer questions to our other guests.

• 2:03Chuck Nice?

  And speaking of that other guest, we have with us, loading up the professional viewpoint, former US men's national team player and coach at the New York Cosmos, Alecko Escondarian.

• 2:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, thank you guys, thank you.

• 2:17Chuck Nice?

  Thanks for being here, man.

• 2:18Gary O'Reilly?

  My pleasure.

• 2:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Alecko, let me compliment you on working for a team that has the name Cosmos. Just one second.

• 2:27Chuck Nice?

  I figured you would like that.

• 2:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Alecko's got an interesting history. His father played for the New York Cosmos. Back in the day with Pelé, Nayskins, Beckenbauer, who I will bow down on my knees in front of football royalty. They are the gods of the game, so envious of your father, Alecko. And Alecko is now working also with Major League Soccer. So he's got quite an important role to play in the future of the game.

• 2:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you're saying is Alecko's the flunky of the family.

• 2:58Gary O'Reilly?

  In some ways, yes. You're saying that because you know that he's gonna have to punch me to get to you.

• 3:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I've got my distance.

• 3:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, thanks a lot, yeah.

• 3:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The configuration on stage here. I'm insulated.

• 3:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Continuing with the celestial theme, we'll take Alecko back to his days at the LA Galaxy. Thank you. And one David Beckham. Everybody in this room knows David Beckham. Everybody outside of this room.

• 3:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He played for the Galaxy, right?

• 3:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we have the Cosmos and the Galaxy. Whoa, I'm in the right place. Oh my gosh.

• 3:32Gary O'Reilly?

  You see?

• 3:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, thank you.

• 3:34Gary O'Reilly?

  It's all coming together.

• 3:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No Red Bull here, or whatever.

• 3:36Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, no, see, you know far more soccer than you're letting on. Right. So for those of us who are familiar with David Beckham, we know kind of the backstory. But there's one in the room here who knows exactly what it's like to play, to train, to work with.

• 3:52Chuck Nice?

  Gary, why do you have to embarrass me?

• 3:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Because that's just the way I am.

• 3:59Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, but we'll get to a Lecco.

• 4:00Chuck Nice?

  We ain't talking about your hair.

• 4:02Gary O'Reilly?

  We'll get to a Lecco soon enough, but Chuck, should we set up a clip?

• 4:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, speaking of Beckham and bending it like Beckham, it was very cool to go back and find a clip of his first goal with the Galaxy, which was on a free kick.

• 4:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Chuck Nice?

  And I think a wall of six players in front of him and he actually did his signature, bend it like Beckham. Was it signature yet? Yeah, at this point, it was definitely his signature because.

• 4:32Gary O'Reilly?

  He wrote his pen with him.

• 4:33Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. So why don't we take a listen to that?

• 4:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Chuck Nice?

  He's got about six people in the wall covering the near side, Troy Perkins does. Can he bend it?

• 4:45Chuck Nice?

  Beckham, it's in the net! It's in the net! Do you believe it?

• 4:52Chuck Nice?

  Beckham can bend it.

• 4:55Gary O'Reilly?

  So, anyone in here who doesn't know, that's almost 99.9% certain it's a right-footed, inside of the right boot, free kick, gonna go curl right to left, but that's as much as the science as I know.

• 5:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and I gotta tell you, when you look at that goal, it's exactly what you, you know, and anybody who doesn't know, we have two professional soccer players here today because Gary O'Reilly is also a former soccer or footballer because he played in Crystal Palace and Tottenham, right?

• 5:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 5:28Chuck Nice?

  And Tottenham.

• 5:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Tottenham, Tottenham, yes, Tottenham is very abbreviated.

• 5:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's how you.

• 5:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Somehow doesn't sound so glamorous.

• 5:39Chuck Nice?

  You don't get Chuck to pronounce the Brits up. You don't want me doing that, but yeah, so we have two professional soccer players here and that is why Gary was able to point out the fact that just by listening that he could tell you exactly how that ball, which I watched the play, that is exactly how, but what was so, I don't know, just stunning about it is the amount of curve.

• 6:08Chuck Nice?

  That he was able to put on the ball. I mean, if this were Major League Baseball, he would have immediately been ejected from the game. That's how much curve was on the soccer ball.

• 6:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Illegal amount of curve.

• 6:19Chuck Nice?

  Yes, it was, yeah.

• 6:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Can you bring?

• 6:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Putting Vaseline on the ball.

• 6:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Can you bring the science to what Beckham is doing and able to achieve there?

• 6:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, what's curious, I'm curious about a couple of things. To curve a ball is just to spin it while it's airborne.

• 6:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 6:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, of course, you want to be accurate, precise.

• 6:39Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 6:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As you do this, so you need to know what you're doing, know how to aim it, know how much to curve it, know not to kick it too slow or too fast.

• 6:48Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because all of these factors influence how far it will go and how much it will curve. So presumably, he's done a lot of homework. That is, in the case of an elite athlete, a lot of practicing on exactly what that kick would do. Now, what got me is here's the goalie standing in the middle of the goal and watches the ball just sail off to his right into the net, almost like a tennis ace, where he's not even diving for it.

• 7:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 7:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He was taken completely off. And what makes the curve so, I don't want to speak for the pros here, but if the ball is curving, it means you think it's coming towards you.

• 7:27Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 7:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it's not. So you're ready to sort of extend your arms to punch it out of the way, but then it just sails to your right.

• 7:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're taken completely off-guard. And I just thought by now, all goalies would just huddle in the right side of the goal.

• 7:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When you aim to the left. And then aim to the left, maybe. So, so what happened, if you, if you kick it with a spin, sort of, there's something in physics called the right-hand rule.

• 7:56Chuck Nice?

  The right-hand rule?

• 7:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, it is, the right-hand rule. It's not what you're thinking, Chuck.

• 8:00Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. I hope you're taking notes.

• 8:03Chuck Nice?

  See, Neil knows me too well.

• 8:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, no, Chuck.

• 8:05Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 8:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the right-hand rule is if you use your right hand and you curl your fingers in the direction the thing is spinning.

• 8:12Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 8:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay? And then your thumb points to the north pole of that object. Okay. Okay. So, North Poles are uniquely, unambiguously definable in space and across the universe, and in all physics. Okay. So, if you kick the ball in such a way that it is spinning with your right hand roll, with your thumb up, okay? Then the aerodynamics on the ball, because the right side of the ball is now going against the air, and the left side of the ball is moving with the air as it goes through, okay? So, so the forces are gonna be different on each side of the ball. Mm-hmm. For that simple reason.

• 8:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, it turns out, there's something called a Magnus effect, which is a lot written about it. And, so, at the risk of making this more complicated than necessary... No, please do. Chuck. Yes. You're on a roll. Make it as complicated, I mean, throw in a little calculus while you're at it. Okay. So, if the texture on the ball, if the ball's surface is not perfectly smooth... Okay. Then what will happen is, the texture on the ball will break up the airflow along the surface of the ball. Okay. Okay? In such a way, that it will reduce what would otherwise be sort of a partial vacuum there. Will reduce that, okay?

• 9:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, now, you lost me, because... So, therefore creating more, slightly more resistance. Exactly, exactly, so watch what happens. So, so, all, all balls that we play with... Okay. Chuck. All right. Professionally... You got me back, you got me back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Professionally, have some kind of texture on them. Be they golf balls, or basketballs. Or wrinkles, go ahead. Or, or, uh, any, they all have some kind of texture. So, when they spin, they will break up what would otherwise be a very smooth flow around the, the, the contact edge of, between the air and the ball. Got you. So now, so watch what happens. So, you break this up on the part that's spinning into the wind. Okay. Okay? It breaks it up very effectively.

• 10:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The side that's spinning back towards you with the wind has a lower airspeed against the wind.

• 10:26Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 10:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Doesn't break it up as much.

• 10:28Chuck Nice?

  So, the disruption actually reduces the airspeed on the backside.

• 10:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. On the backside, that gives you less disruption.

• 10:37Chuck Nice?

  Less, right.

• 10:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  More, essentially more of a pulling force.

• 10:41Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say. So, on that side, it's...

• 10:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's actually pulling, and on the other side...

• 10:46Chuck Nice?

  It's pushing.

• 10:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so, once you spin the ball...

• 10:49Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 10:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then, there's an air force that will push on the ball at right angles to its motion at all times.

• 10:55Chuck Nice?

  Okay, cool.

• 10:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, as it curves, it just keeps curving.

• 10:58Chuck Nice?

  Right. Gotcha.

• 11:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It'll just keep curving.

• 11:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, because that never changes.

• 11:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's never changing.

• 11:03Chuck Nice?

  That rotation never changes.

• 11:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That rotation is whatever. So, so, as the direction changes...

• 11:06Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, does the direction that it's... So, that's why, when you see these curves, it's like, it keeps going!

• 11:12Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Keeps curving!

• 11:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he's like, "Whoa!"

• 11:16Chuck Nice?

  That's cool. And so, that ball that we saw, that we didn't see it, we heard, um, that...

• 11:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is radio.

• 11:22Chuck Nice?

  This is radio.

• 11:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Power of imagination.

• 11:24Chuck Nice?

  But, let's just say, uh, we were in an abyss where there is atmosphere, that ball would've just keep curving no matter what!

• 11:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Except, gravity's pulling it to the ground.

• 11:37Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, ultimately, it will likely hit the ground before it comes around to hit you back in your face.

• 11:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, Alecko, if you knew all of this before you ever bent a ball, would you have bothered? Or would you... And I got a question to put on top of that. Go on, then. It's just physics. Why is he the only one that anyone talks about bending a ball?

• 11:57Speaker 03

  See, that's a, that's a good point, because, in my opinion, everyone, everyone curves the ball, right?

• 12:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of course.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  Obviously, with, with Dave Beckham, and he's not the only one in the world, there's plenty of talented free kick specialists who aren't as noticeable or famous as, as David is, but...

• 12:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or as handsome.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Or better looking, yeah.

• 12:16Chuck Nice?

  Which is probably the case. That's really what it's separate.

• 12:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Maybe a Spice Girl element in there as well, but moving on. Did he date a Spice Girl?

• 12:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, married one.

• 12:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excuse me, I didn't know. You're all looking at me like I should know that.

• 12:25Chuck Nice?

  I know.

• 12:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm an astrophysicist, people!

• 12:27Speaker 03

  You should know that.

• 12:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But the editor...

• 12:29Chuck Nice?

  Well, she's a star!

• 12:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  But I think a lot of it is the shape of your foot, too, because,

• 12:36Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  You know, for me, for example, I have a very powerful shot. And when I play.

• 12:41Chuck Nice?

  If you say so yourself.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, well.

• 12:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So powerful means the ball moves fast.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I was able to generate more power on my shot than than any player in the league when I was playing.

• 12:49Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  But I think a big part of that is I have a very wide foot, very, very wide. So I feel like I had a, I don't have facts to back this up, but I feel like I have a base that my sweet spot is maybe bigger than someone else's.

• 13:03Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Whereas with David, I don't know.

• 13:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But just to be clear, just to clarify that, so you can have a sweet spot, but if your sweet spot doesn't hit the ball's sweet spot, it's not going anywhere.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 13:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if you have a wide sweet spot, your margin of error is larger. So if you're running and the ball's moving and someone is bumping into you, you will have a higher likelihood of making a powerful kick under stress.

• 13:27Chuck Nice?

  So now, are you saying your powerful kick comes from, and tell me the difference, please, is your powerful kick a free kick or is that a powerful kick while you're in motion?

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Both.

• 13:38Chuck Nice?

  Or is it both?

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it doesn't, I mean, it's not just the shape of my foot, obviously.

• 13:42Chuck Nice?

  It's, of course, I know.

• 13:43Gary O'Reilly?

  There'd be a whole lot of ratios between quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes, that come in and the length of the lever. Sometimes, did you have a long, a high, a long backlift or a short backlift?

• 13:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's a backlift?

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Very short.

• 13:55Gary O'Reilly?

  So when you go to kick, the motion of the heel backwards from the ball, sometimes you find, guys.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  I had a very quick release, which made it difficult for the goalkeeper.

• 14:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Which is quite strange, because I played with one guy at Tottenham whose backlift was minimal and the power that he imparts into the ball is like, whoa.

• 14:11Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. That's also gotta be confusing for a goalie, too.

• 14:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Exactly, because the reaction time for the goalkeeper is that much less.

• 14:16Chuck Nice?

  It's like a pitcher.

• 14:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they're ready for you to wind up to hit, to kick it, and you don't wind up and you kick it and it goes faster than they would have judged.

• 14:23Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Less time for the goalkeeper to react.

• 14:25Chuck Nice?

  So now, because I've never played soccer, all right, here's what I want to know. You talked about, you know, the part of your foot that you kick it with.

• 14:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You had it surgically altered.

• 14:38Chuck Nice?

  But it looks as though when you see guys, you know, I do watch soccer. A lot of times it looks like they're kicking it with the side of their foot.

• 14:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Their instep.

• 14:49Chuck Nice?

  Their instep, um, as opposed to the top of their foot. So what happens, and both of you can answer this for me. What is the difference when you kick with the top of your foot as opposed to your instep?

• 14:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so the thing what Neil was saying about how, you know, you've got a guy barging you. You've got someone running you down or you've got a narrow opportunity where you see the goal. Alecko will talk to this because you're a striker, right?

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 15:13Gary O'Reilly?

  You are in tune, an intuitive balance. You know, you need to dial out a certain technique. So go through the techniques that you would use and the different parts of the foot you would use to execute.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. During a match or during the flow of a game, there's, there's different techniques that you're going to implement depending on what you want to achieve out of it. So if it's a long pass, I, I obviously can't use the inside of my foot to get a ball from here 40 yards down in the air. That's not good. So it's a different technique. I'm going to use my instep to get the, get underneath the ball, get some more distance on it, more power on it. And it'll probably be backspin on it as well. Um, whereas if I'm going to take a shot, I want to power right through it. I want to keep it low. I'm not even worried about, uh, I'm more, more concerned about keeping it low and on frame because I have a target. Um, if I have a barrier in front of me, so if that camera's in front of me and I have a teammate that's making a run behind,

• 16:08Speaker 03

  I have to now decide, okay, which way is that defender going to be moving? Which way do I want to curve it around them to be in the path of my teammate? So if my teammate's running this way.

• 16:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Left, right?

• 16:20Speaker 03

  You know, left to right.

• 16:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Across your.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  And, and I want to play a ball in front of him, but there's a barrier in the way. I'm going to want to curve it maybe with the outside of my foot. So it gets around the barrier, but still will come back in his path.

• 16:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  It's not too far for, or too, um. Too different than basketball, you know, when you, when you see LeBron James, sometimes he even puts spins on his.

• 16:42Gary O'Reilly?

  On the bounce pass.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  Exactly, on his bounce pass. So it's, Jason Kidd was a guy that was phenomenal at that.

• 16:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But an important point here, the basketball generally is not traveling fast enough through the air for this effect to matter.

• 16:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 16:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In its airborne trajectory.

• 16:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 16:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whereas in soccer, a kick goes 50 miles an hour. And so it turns out, what I, what I should have left, what I should have exited that bit about was, here are the things that matter for how much it's going to curve. What is the ball weigh?

• 17:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 17:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What is the density of the air that you're playing in?

• 17:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 17:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And one of the World Cups, there were different games at different, one was at sea level, one was at higher altitude. Was that in South Africa?

• 17:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When, when was that? 2010? So, so the thinner air sensibly will have less effect on pushing the ball than thicker air will.

• 17:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 17:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it's the air that's pushing the ball. So it's the thickness of the, you know, the air pressure, the weight of the ball, how fast you kick the ball.

• 17:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Gotcha.

• 17:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And also how high the, how long the ball stays airborne, because then it'll, it has more time to curve.

• 17:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 17:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if you keep the ball low, it's going to drop to the ground.

• 17:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Hit the ground before it does what it's supposed to do.

• 17:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Anything interesting. And part of the curving is not just to fool the goalie, at the risk of stating the obvious, you have a wall standing in front of you.

• 17:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 17:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And how far away are they, you?

• 17:58Gary O'Reilly?

  10 yards.

• 17:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're 10 yards, so.

• 17:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Allegedly.

• 18:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, okay, so.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  We got, we got spray now, we got spray now for that.

• 18:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I never see a line there, I don't know. So I looked at the angles on that, and they try to cut off your angle to the goal.

• 18:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 18:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By where they stand. And if you can curve it, where they stand is irrelevant.

• 18:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Gotcha.

• 18:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You just put it around them.

• 18:17Gary O'Reilly?

  They'll jump. There's all different ways, but they jump, you work out, they jump, you stick it underneath them.

• 18:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sideways, they're gonna jump up.

• 18:21Gary O'Reilly?

  No. And the other thing is you take a.

• 18:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I just want to put that, just put that down.

• 18:25Gary O'Reilly?

  When you strike a ball to get some curvature on it, it depends how much, and Alecko can testify to this, how much of the ball you actually meet with the instep on your foot. If you want to curve it a little bit, or a lot, if you're going for power. Anyway, look, we're gonna take a break.

• 18:38Chuck Nice?

  All right, and you know, when we come back, I'm so glad that you bought this out because I actually have some balls that I actually went to a store and bought.

• 18:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you for clarifying.

• 18:48Chuck Nice?

  To clarify, just okay. And I want you guys to take a look at them and then maybe break down just a little bit more of what we're talking about in terms of how these balls might react.

• 18:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, so we're gonna take a break.

• 18:59Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 19:00Gary O'Reilly?

  See you shortly.

• 19:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science, where we today look at the beautiful game, soccer, football, call it what you wish, and the science, the technology, the technology of now, and in parts to come, technology that will be available and coming to a game near you very soon. Right, Alecko, you have the brand new Telstar 18 ball in your hands.

• 19:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's called Telstar?

• 19:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, I knew that was gonna press your.

• 19:41Chuck Nice?

  Telstar? So we got Cosmos, Galaxy, and now Telstar.

• 19:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Telstar is America's first communication satellite.

• 19:47Gary O'Reilly?

  But this is Telstar 18.

• 19:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, that's fine. By now, we would have 18.

• 19:51Gary O'Reilly?

  No, the original Telstar, Adidas Telstar ball was for Mexico 1970. The black and white hexagons, the classic that we all have in our mind. Yeah, so this is the new version they're in. What do you notice? Don't tell me it's round, otherwise I'll get upset with you.

• 20:05Speaker 03

  No, it's definitely a different contour when you feel it. I've never felt a ball like this, actually. I'm like curious to see how it would.

• 20:12Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, so Neil, I'm gonna give you this one, which is another Adidas ball. For those of you listening in black and white, it's green and black. Right.

• 20:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was good, Gary.

• 20:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you kindly. What do you first notice tactile when you pick and hold that ball?

• 20:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, this is the, I'm holding the ball that's sort of most familiar to people. It's a combination of hexagons and an intermittent pentagon to finish out the stitching. And so if you see this, you would obviously just say that's a soccer ball here in America. Other stitchings, you'd wonder what game is that for? So the surface of this, because of the stitching, it is part of the surface, the contouring of the ball that enables it to break up the air that goes across it. And without the stitching, by the way, if the ball were perfectly smooth, here's the kicker, no pun intended.

• 21:02Gary O'Reilly?

  It was intended.

• 21:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If a ball were perfectly smooth, without disrupting the boundary layer of air, the Magnus effect changes mathematical sign and the ball curves in the opposite direction.

• 21:14Chuck Nice?

  Ah.

• 21:15Gary O'Reilly?

  So this is a smooth surface?

• 21:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is smooth, but these, these, uh, the stitching here is, is enough to, but it would, it would, because the surface is smooth, it would reduce the Magnus effect uh, by a corresponding amount compared with a similar ball that has a mottled surface, for example.

• 21:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so, back in 2010, in South Africa, we had the Jubalani ball, which was hated by goalkeepers, loved by strikers like Alecko, because it became, at a certain speed, a knuckleball effect, so it would do all sorts of stuff that nobody quite could define, and it was more, the surface was smoother. Now, I'm gonna give you this Telstar 18, which you will covet because of its name, I know. We're gonna swap this over.

• 21:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're swapping. So just, just a, okay, so just a point about the, your smooth ball.

• 21:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so what happens there is, if you kick the ball basically without spin, so a knuckleball in baseball is a ball thrown without spin, and when it does not have a spin, then it's no longer spin stabilized, and what, what that means is, it is at the mercy of any gust of wind that blows by, and in the case of a soccer ball, yes, that's also the case, but unlike a baseball, soccer balls have valves which change the center of mass of the ball.

• 22:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, I bet some kickers are aware of this and will place the ball relative to where the, the, the air valve is.

• 22:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, they do.

• 22:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because that, that's an asymmetric point of the ball. So, in a knuckleball, the ball, uh, sorry, in a, a non-spinning soccer kick, knuckleball equivalent.

• 22:51Gary O'Reilly?

  It's still a knuckleball in soccer, too.

• 22:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 22:55Gary O'Reilly?

  You're in safe ground.

• 22:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Even though it's not your knuckles that are, that are doing it.

• 22:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Toe knuckles.

• 22:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, so, what's, what's happening is, the ball will move according to its own center of mass.

• 23:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But the structure of the ball is not centered on its center of mass. Because there's a little more mass to one side than the other.

• 23:15Chuck Nice?

  Okay, gotcha, cuz it's asymmetric.

• 23:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's asymmetric, right? So in other words, the ball will sort of wobble, in a sense, even though it is keeping its own center of mass on a straight line.

• 23:26Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 23:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, cuz that's how the physics works. But the side, because the ball itself is not even, it'll, it'll wobble as it goes through the air. Uh, and so that'll mess with the goalie, for sure.

• 23:35Gary O'Reilly?

  So those of you familiar with the Cristiano Ronaldo free kick that goes up, down, left, right, all in the same breath. What he's doing is playing with the science, pun intended by the way, me saying that, is he will kick through the aperture that's on the ball. The deformation, am I right?

• 23:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure.

• 23:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Is then what plays, and that's what goalkeepers are sitting there looking. That's why you see frozen goalkeepers quite often, thinking,

• 23:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 23:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, it's a roll of a dice. If I dive left, right, or stand still, whatever happens.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  And you could see, as, as soon as they pick up the ball, they're, they're looking for that little nozzle, and then that's where they're putting it down.

• 24:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now, I predict, based on this ball, this is a stunning ball, by the way. This, okay, the stitching is, it has more stitching than your classical hexagon Pentagon ball.

• 24:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Although it's only got six panels.

• 24:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I don't care, no, it's, it's, it's, forget the panels. I'm talking about, how many places is there stitching? Where a perfect sphere dimples because there's stitching there. There's way more stitching that I can see on this ball. Way more segments where, that are surrounded by this. And the surface is not smooth. It's textured.

• 24:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh my gosh. You wanna talk about bending it like Beckham? This is a bendable ball. I predict, in the next tournament that features this ball, the ball's gonna look like a, like a wiffle ball in a hurricane.

• 24:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh no.

• 24:54Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 24:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Bad day to be a goalkeeper.

• 24:57Chuck Nice?

  So once again, this ball is a goalkeeper's nightmare.

• 25:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, this will be a goalkeeper's nightmare, for sure. But unless the kickers have time to practice. Their normal spin that they would put, that they've trained that would aim and land in a particular place, could go completely wild on them.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  And that's the thing with the jubalani ball that you mentioned, there were a lot of shots that were going 20 yards over the goal, just because it was, it was difficult for, for players to understand.

• 25:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It didn't get the curve that they wanted.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  Not always, sometimes it would.

• 25:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Bending left and right, depending on your left footed or right footed, or on what side of the ball you kick it, that's sideways bending. You can bend it top and down. Yeah. With it has a backspin or a topspin. Correct. So a topspin, it'll dive quickly. A backspin, it'll sustain its trajectory longer than what your brain sense tells you gravity should do to it. So it's not really rising. But like the right, well, well, yeah, correct. It's not. It's, that's it. Correct. It's so. It's falling less. In baseball, just to use my, you know, American analogies here. Do it, do it. It was America, Jack. Okay, I'm hearing. The rising fastball that people talk about, if you look at the side, uh, uh, uh,

• 26:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  and out, and analysis of it, it actually doesn't rise at all. It just doesn't fall as fast as your brain thinks it should. So you feel as the batter like it's rising. And so, uh, same would be true with, with the soccer ball. So, so I, I will look forward to what kind of soccer is played with that. That'll be a fan favorite ball, for sure.

• 26:27Gary O'Reilly?

  It's loaded to the strikers. And you as a striker, how long will it take you, or you think some of the World Cup stars, to learn how to work that ball out? Where the sweet spot is, where they want to work it, how they're going to pass it, distance, 30 yards, 20 yards, 10 yards, and strike at goal? How long do you think it'll take?

• 26:44Speaker 03

  Not too long. Um.

• 26:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're good.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  I, I would say, yeah.

• 26:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In your day, you know.

• 26:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Days, weeks, years, never.

• 26:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Never.

• 26:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Choose, choose the applicable out of that list.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  No, within a couple of training sessions is, is usually all it takes. Um, that's why you see teams try to get these balls in. You know, if you're going to play a match, and you're going to play with a ball that's different than the one you train with.

• 27:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, gosh.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  A team will always try to request at least two days before the match to.

• 27:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Particularly if it's deflated, you know, you can't, you can't.

• 27:13Gary O'Reilly?

  So the thing is, if this ball, when, if you go to hit it for distance, say 60 yards, 50. yards plus and this ball starts to change its flight path and become unpredictable. Teams will change the way they play. They will not play longer diagonal passes. The game will become shorter and therefore quicker. They will adapt to the ball because by the way, the ball won't be changing. They'll have to change their style to accommodate what that does.

• 27:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And is that the roughest textured ball you've ever touched? It might be. The roughest I've ever seen. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like what we analogy, not quite like the dimpling on a basketball, but it's a.

• 27:47Chuck Nice?

  It's like ridges.

• 27:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's it's it's got a texture. I don't know how else to say it. It's it's it's rougher though than than than a soccer ball normally is.

• 27:55Gary O'Reilly?

  See, the Brazuka had a had a texture to it as well, but it had a wavy kind of pattern. If you get this up close, you will see it's got that texture to it, but it is linear. There's no wave in the pattern, so that must, there's no way, because these balls get tested at NASA. There's no way they've put that, oh, we'll just go straight this year and we'll don't worry. It's a fashion thing.

• 28:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I'll tell you this.

• 28:16Chuck Nice?

  Wait, is this really tested at NASA?

• 28:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Absolutely, yeah, they're tested at Ames.

• 28:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wind tunnels and things.

• 28:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got this.

• 28:22Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 28:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I don't know if the.

• 28:24Chuck Nice?

  I was just gonna say, I might find a better use for my tax dollars than testing.

• 28:29Gary O'Reilly?

  I think Adidas will have FIFA FIFA will have paid for this.

• 28:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So so.

• 28:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, good hands.

• 28:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now that now that I'm looking more closely at this, there are two parallel pan, there's one panel.

• 28:40Chuck Nice?

  Like a stripe.

• 28:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But the stripes that go around its equator and above the pole and another one around the pole. So separated by 90 degrees and in there are eight triangles. So I'm curious if the kickers will be able to find a way to spin the ball such that the parallel panels are operating against the air rather than some other dimension on this. That'll just be, so I'm telling you now, you're a coach? Uh, I was, I was. Oh, not anymore? Oh, okay, okay.

• 29:10Gary O'Reilly?

  But don't worry, the secret's gonna come out.

• 29:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm just telling you. I'm gonna go back to playing after all this information. I'm telling you that if the ball spins along with these parallel panels, it will curve differently than if it is not. I'm just telling you that right now.

• 29:23Gary O'Reilly?

  The guys are gonna work this out.

• 29:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So and if you're gonna knuckleball it, uh, watch out where the valve is and then make that work to your advantage. So very cool. I can't wait to watch real folks play with this.

• 29:36Gary O'Reilly?

  We have a fan.

• 29:37Chuck Nice?

  We're looking forward to an exciting World Cup.

• 29:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I can't wait.

• 29:40Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, so before we take a break, let's go. Your favorite bit of technology that's come into the game since you became a coach, after you finished playing?

• 29:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which would then affect your management of the team.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. GPS, heart rate monitors, heat tracking.

• 29:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, where are the players going?

• 29:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, this isn't during the game.

• 30:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hey dude, my GPS said you should be in the stadium.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  As a coach, if you can measure how hard someone's working, that just gives you added incentive to yell or not yell.

• 30:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I'd love the data they now have on how far they've run in a game.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that also a GPS thing, or is there some?

• 30:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I'd love that.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, between heart rate monitors and GPS, you're able to at least monitor how hard someone's working.

• 30:23Gary O'Reilly?

  You can use that here in the US, in MLS, you use that in-game.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  MLS, Major League Soccer?

• 30:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Major League Soccer, yes. So, in European leagues, you're not allowed to use that, because if I think my midfield, my center midfield player, we always pick on them, isn't working as hard, and that's detrimental to my game plan, I can see on the data that that's the case. If, my eyes might be telling me one thing, but the data confirms that or denies that. So, that's something that's an added bonus here in the US that we don't have in other European leagues.

• 30:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why don't you have it elsewhere?

• 30:55Gary O'Reilly?

  I think they want to take away the fact that you could have really accurate...

• 30:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Anti-technology.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  They have it, they have it.

• 31:01Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, not anti-technology, they just, I just think they're not keen to use it in-game, but I think it will be coming.

• 31:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, suppose I'm just a really efficient player?

• 31:10Speaker 03

  Exactly, you can't measure...

• 31:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just because my heart rate isn't going up?

• 31:13Chuck Nice?

  Exactly, it's like, I'm working just as hard as anybody else, I just make it looky.

• 31:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I know in advance where the wall's gonna come.

• 31:21Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 31:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't have to chase it down, listen to it come by, I'm there when it got to me.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  And there's evidence of guys working too hard. Hey, I don't need you running this much for no reason, without thinking, so, there's a fine balance, that's where soccer IQ comes into play, where you can't just base it all on numbers, it's more of reaffirmation of what you're already thinking.

• 31:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Soccer IQ, that's sick.

• 31:41Chuck Nice?

  I like that.

• 31:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, so, with soccer IQ, we will take a break, and we'll all be doing questionnaires, and during the break, we'll come back and see which one of us doesn't have the best soccer IQ, and I'm holding my hand up right now. Right, we'll take that short break, this is Playing with Science, and we'll be back shortly, and we might have a special visitor, by the sounds of it, yes.

• 32:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. We're enjoying and exploring science and technology in the beautiful game. So Neil, you've got a question burning inside of you.

• 32:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Totally burning.

• 32:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, go for it.

• 32:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's up with you people to reinvent the ball every four years? What does that even mean?

• 32:37Chuck Nice?

  That's a very good question.

• 32:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have the answer, but I'm gonna get a leggo.

• 32:40Chuck Nice?

  They've been playing football for a very long time. I've never heard anybody go, "Hey, we're going with Nerf this year."

• 32:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nerf ball, yeah, yeah, American football, right. Right, or baseball, just, "Hey, let's come up with some other shape." "We need more stitches on this ball." Yeah, that would be crazy in any other sport. Why is it just the thing you guys do?

• 32:56Speaker 03

  I don't know. I don't know the exact answer, but I think things are always improving. You look at jerseys, for example. Jerseys 20 years ago aren't the same as they are now, and with the ball as well. I think there are minor improvements that are made.

• 33:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They just look like random, somebody just dreamt it one night. I don't know that they're improvements. They look more like, just simply like, changes than improvements.

• 33:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Anyone else wanna sing along with me? "Must be the money." All right. "Selling the ball every four years." "We got some commercials." Guy in the front row's going, "I gotcha."

• 33:28Chuck Nice?

  You know what, Gary? You are absolutely right, and here's why. I just went shopping for soccer balls, and I can't tell you the wall of different soccer balls that I had to navigate in order to figure.

• 33:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now it's like buying Jell-O in the store?

• 33:43Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 33:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Every flavor.

• 33:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and so there was the Messi ball, and there was a World Cup training soccer ball, and there was, um, they, oh, I forget the other one that's, um, oh, gosh, it's an MLS ball, but it looks like Jubalani, but it's, instead of like the four, it's only got like two little curvy panels. So you're absolutely right. It's a, it makes sense.

• 34:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so you touched on jerseys. What about the future of jerseys? Where do you think it could go?

• 34:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are we just talking about clothing here?

• 34:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, uniforms, clothing. What a soccer player's uniform could be like in the future.

• 34:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So before we do that, because I'm uninitiated, how have jerseys changed?

• 34:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so go back many, many years and imagine me as a small child.

• 34:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're still just talking about clothing here.

• 34:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I thought we were talking about, like, sports.

• 34:37Gary O'Reilly?

  We're getting there. Clothing as in a soccer uniform. Heavy cotton. You sweat and run around and it becomes three pounds heavier if you're lucky. Then you go through some basic.

• 34:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That poundage was in your body to begin with. So you were carrying that weight around at the beginning of the game.

• 34:52Gary O'Reilly?

  But now it's on the outside.

• 34:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But in either case, you weighed that much before. I just want to be clear. That water didn't come from space, okay?

• 35:00Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 35:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When you walked out on the field at the beginning of the game, you said, gee, I have this three pounds on me. Let me get rid of it. No, it's raining.

• 35:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Unless it's raining, though.

• 35:08Gary O'Reilly?

  I just got detention, didn't I? I really just got detention.

• 35:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're just saying it right. Don't run around and sweat and say, oh, now I'm carrying around this heavy thing because it's wet. But the truth is, it feels icky. It's icky. It's the ick factor.

• 35:21Gary O'Reilly?

  So you go through nylon and synthetic fabrics and now you get fabrics that breathe.

• 35:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Synthetic.

• 35:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, I know, but then you get synthetic fabrics that are able to develop and it breathes. So it wicks away the sweat that you once had inside that's now outside. Did I say that right? Thank you.

• 35:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're good.

• 35:34Gary O'Reilly?

  So thank you.

• 35:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Moisture wicking.

• 35:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. So now, where are we headed? Where do you think jerseys will go? And we'll kind of sort of pick up some threads.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Well, I think right now, we were talking a bit about the whole GPS and Harry Potter, that whole piece. At the moment, guys are wearing devices almost in like sports bras. And they have it hooked up. If you watch a match right now, if you see guys who have almost a little device sticking out from like the back of their neck or their spine, there are these little GPS devices. And that's how, that's what helps them track it down.

• 36:02Gary O'Reilly?

  It's about the size of a small cellphone, if you can imagine that. Now, what they're saying now is you're going to get the coming forward of intelligent fibre. Nanotechnology, where all of that sort of cellphone-sized equipment that's stuck between your shoulder blades is going to be minimalized into the fabric. Also, while you're watching your favorite team, their uniform will change color. Imagine that. They have a shirt sponsor, right? Some of the most expensive real estate in the world would be Real Madrid, Barcelona, the big guys. Imagine if they could change as well.

• 36:36Chuck Nice?

  They already have that, and believe me, that's going to happen not just in...

• 36:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Chuck Nice?

  The sport that is most uniquely suited to have that happen is, of course, soccer. What will happen is, it's going to be like NASCAR. So you know how in NASCAR you have all these different medallions on the car. So they'll have a band across the shirt, and that band will change advertisements during the game.

• 36:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Chuck Nice?

  So...

• 37:00Gary O'Reilly?

  And if you ever wondered what it's like to be Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Alecko, there'll be cameras in the jersey. The fibers, like fiber optics, right? They will be there. Now, the TV companies and the clubs...

• 37:13Chuck Nice?

  Well, Alecko, make sure you don't put your shorts on inside out, buddy.

• 37:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No!

• 37:17Gary O'Reilly?

  So this is now, as a viewer, as a fan...

• 37:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On the field camera, what's that?

• 37:24Gary O'Reilly?

  So you can imagine, as a fan...

• 37:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Camera's pointing the wrong way!

• 37:29Gary O'Reilly?

  You can dial up which player and the cameras you want, or you might have other options where you can have Chuck to wear his shorts inside out. It just depends what you want to dial up.

• 37:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you could be in the game by the technology of the jersey?

• 37:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 37:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, fine. So now I see why we're talking about clothing.

• 37:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you.

• 37:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So will players embrace this?

• 37:45Speaker 03

  Uh, probably not, to be honest with you.

• 37:48Gary O'Reilly?

  But do they have a choice?

• 37:52Speaker 03

  Well, when it comes to sponsors and all that stuff, probably not, but at the end of the day, as a player, you want to be as light as possible when you're out there and aerodynamic as possible.

• 38:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, these things, I mean, if you think about a camera on the side of the field or in the stadium, very different. This is fiber optic.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Right, but even if it's two ounces, players will use it as an excuse, so that's why I couldn't make that run.

• 38:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so speaking of jerseys, what's this thing where they run off the field and take off their shirt? Like, what is that?

• 38:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, you want to look like any of those guys?

• 38:19Chuck Nice?

  I'd be taking off my shirt in a frozen food set in another shop, right? You kidding me?

• 38:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What, what's up with that?

• 38:25Speaker 03

  With trading jerseys, you mean, at the end of the game?

• 38:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no.

• 38:28Chuck Nice?

  No, he means when you score a goal.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  Um.

• 38:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, what's up with that?

• 38:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, that's celebration.

• 38:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:31Gary O'Reilly?

  That's, that's you about to get a yellow card. That's, I am so desperate to get a yellow card, I will now run around with my shirt off.

• 38:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that a yellow card offense?

• 38:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really?

• 38:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, that's a cheap way to get one.

• 38:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 38:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Really cheap way.

• 38:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really?

• 38:43Chuck Nice?

  Even if you look like Christian?

• 38:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's like the end zone dance, you're not supposed to do that in, in American football.

• 38:49Chuck Nice?

  See, but they changed that now, now you, now they've encouraged the end zone dance as long as it isn't.

• 38:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's just you. Plus, it's only you, you can't get the whole, uh, kick line going, right?

• 38:59Chuck Nice?

  Um, actually, you can now.

• 39:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, you can?

• 39:01Chuck Nice?

  They just changed that rule this year, you know?

• 39:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so we got the, we get the telemetric data.

• 39:05Chuck Nice?

  And goals don't, I'm sorry, but let me just say this, goals do not happen a lot in soccer, damn it. If a guy wants to take off his shirt, he should be able to take off, if he wants to wave his penis at the crowd, he should be able to do it. How often do goals happen?

• 39:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 39:19Chuck Nice?

  That's crazy. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Now I know why I wanted that camera inside the shirt.

• 39:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. So soccer with a parental guide. So, when we get to the telemetrics and we're gonna have this layer in your jersey.

• 39:31Chuck Nice?

  I can't get that image out of my head now.

• 39:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Think harder. So, shouldn't be hard for you. So, what are you looking for? What, what are the telemetrics that mean most to you as a coach when you're reading it saying, hey, I like this? What, what really is the most important factors?

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think as a coach, the, the one thing, we were talking about the future.

• 39:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  Injury prevention. That, that to me is, is the, is the biggest thing, and that's where I see technology going. And that's what a lot of this data is used for. I know that some of the top clubs in Europe, they monitor down to, uh, the distance cover, the, the toll on the body. And that's what determines whether, hey, we gotta give this guy a, a break next week.

• 40:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Do you have the red flag sort of thing?

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's, he's got another three games in him at, at this, you know, toll on his body and after that, it might break down.

• 40:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like in baseball where they count your pitches. And they decide when to take you out.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And when to put you back in the rotation.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Soccer's so difficult though, because there's so many different variables, because not, any two games are alike. Because the score changes how much input you're putting out on the field. The conditions change, the surface changes. So, you know, if, if it's a, a grass field that doesn't hold the water well and it's raining, now after a game, you feel like you played two matches even though you just played one. So, there's a lot of different things that, that go into it, and I think collecting all this data will help.

• 40:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Prevent injuries.

• 40:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so when do the injury acting lessons? When do those get in?

• 40:52Chuck Nice?

  Ah, flopping.

• 40:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, did I?

• 40:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Gamesmanship.

• 40:55Chuck Nice?

  Flopping, I love it.

• 40:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, no, that, okay, no, so.

• 40:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Somebody had to go there.

• 40:59Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, that's fine. So, uh, whoever has our Telstar 18, that has been constructed to benefit strikers. Therefore FIFA, the governing, the world governing body, are looking to get advantage in, or at the feet, I should say, of the strikers. Now, they won't like the flopping aspect of it. So if you flop dramatically and fail to get an Oscar, but should have got an Oscar, right?

• 41:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Flop means fall.

• 41:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Fall.

• 41:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Faking injury.

• 41:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, simulation, as it would be called. Don't be surprised if players get three game bans.

• 41:31Chuck Nice?

  Three game bans?

• 41:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Do it. Now you see how clever you are. Just go draconian, go very hard on it.

• 41:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know what that means, I'm sorry.

• 41:38Chuck Nice?

  So he's saying that the league should, if you're, if people are flopping, then you get a three game suspension. It's like.

• 41:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, a three game ban?

• 41:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 41:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, I thought this was a new thing you wear on your wrist, wristband. A three game ban? No, no, a three game ban.

• 41:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  So, so what's in place right now in, in our league in MLS is there's a disciplinary committee where they review all these plays of simulation embellishment, and there's a monetary fine.

• 42:03Chuck Nice?

  Simulation embellishment?

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't want, you can't call it acting.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  Because there's a difference between, yeah, there's, there's a big difference that, that most people that haven't played don't understand. There's a difference between selling a foul that you've been fouled.

• 42:17Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Versus completely faking it and you haven't been touched and you're, you know, trying to fool the referee.

• 42:23Chuck Nice?

  So I guess they would use, like, what, instant replay? Because I, I think that's a little dangerous. I mean, if, if, if, if you were fouled, even though you're selling that, I mean, if there was an offense, you should be able to be, have that credited.

• 42:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they're magnifying the.

• 42:37Chuck Nice?

  Right. And that happens in every sport. I mean, I don't care what it is.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Referees are human.

• 42:42Chuck Nice?

  Referees are human, you see it happen all the time. So I'm just saying, like, how would you go about?

• 42:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By the way, AI, we can fix that.

• 42:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 42:49Chuck Nice?

  What's that?

• 42:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 42:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Referees are human, we, we have ways.

• 42:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. Everyone in here has heard of Google specs, right?

• 42:56Chuck Nice?

  Google specs, yes.

• 42:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Google specs.

• 42:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I haven't, I'm sorry.

• 42:58Chuck Nice?

  Google Glass.

• 42:58Gary O'Reilly?

  You'll catch up.

• 42:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, specs, Google Glass.

• 43:00Chuck Nice?

  Google Glass.

• 43:00Gary O'Reilly?

  So, if the referee's view of an incident is obscured, imagine he's got this very clever eyewear on, that dials up immediately, an instant, instant replay, as you called it, Chuck.

• 43:11Chuck Nice?

  Instant, instant replay.

• 43:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Of that, of that same incident from another angle that is very clear, would you? Be happy with that.

• 43:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, you can't hide an offense.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. No, and that's, you know, we're seeing the implementation of video review now. But that's where the game is headed is human error, whether it's the referee, the assistant referee, the linesman. That's the difference between winning and losing a game. So if you can help avoid errors made and, and video can come into play. I think everyone is, is all for it as long as it's implemented properly because again, there, there's still a human operating that machinery.

• 43:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it reduces it.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  It does, it does. But, but things are so subjective where, you know, if, if I see a, there could, we, you and I could be watching a game. We've both played and there could be a, a guy who goes down the box and I might say penalty and he might say, no, it's not a penalty.

• 44:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  So there's always going to be differing opinions, but at least with video review, um, like you said, it eliminates the, the doubt.

• 44:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Could it be that unlike some sports such as baseball, which is still using wood and leather and pine tar? And it's one of the least touched sports by technology that soccer, because you get a new ball every four years. And the rules are just whatever anybody thinks up, uh, to, to make the ball.

• 44:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Harsh, harsh.

• 44:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That you might be ripe for a complete technological revolution in the sport. That'd be cool.

• 44:36Gary O'Reilly?

  I can't see a complete technological revolution. I mean, we've got, we now have goal line technology where the goal is inundated with camera angles.

• 44:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sensors and things. Okay.

• 44:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Camera angles that will, will such high speed. I've, I've read somewhere like 500 frames a second, which is like really complaint. That's blown my head really, but that is definitive. That's within about two or three millimeters accuracy.

• 45:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 45:01Gary O'Reilly?

  So that, that's happening. That, that's the Hawkeye technology.

• 45:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, just to be clear, if you have that many frames per second, then each frame essentially stops the ball in midair.

• 45:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and at a lower frame rate, it doesn't stop the ball. The ball is blurred. And if you're trying to decide whether something crosses the line or doesn't. Or didn't and you have an image of a, if you have a blurred image of the ball, you cannot adjudicate that with precision. So you need a high frame rate.

• 45:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you.

• 45:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What did I just say?

• 45:27Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, no, that's beautiful because now I understand exactly why there's 500 frames a second and what the outcome is because you need to know.

• 45:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the early days of tennis, before we had high frame rate replays and the ball in tennis is going 100, for men it's 130 miles an hour. So the ball comes down, it bounces so fast and they try to show that in slow motion and the whole bounce is a blur. Everything is a blur and you just, is it? I don't know. Can we?

• 45:51Chuck Nice?

  But without that, we would have never had John McEnroe. Come on!

• 45:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so technology gets rid of a-hole behavior.

• 46:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Lico, is there something that you would like to see change in the game for positive? For both fans and for players or just for fans, whichever way you want to work that?

• 46:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I think everyone that plays the game, that watches the game, they, they want to enjoy watching it. So if you can eliminate, like we talked about, the, the diving or the bad calls, the things that people get so infuriated with, I would be all for that. But at the same time, I do, I do enjoy the human aspect of it. I do enjoy that there's going to be curveballs thrown your way that you have to deal with in the course of a match. There are no timeouts. The game is flowing.

• 46:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, once they got rid of the, you know, they put in the no tie rule, how's that been going? Where you have the, you swap off kicks?

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Oh, shootout. Well, that's only in, in tournaments. Yeah. In league play, a tie is still a tie.

• 46:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so the reason I ask is because of course in hockey, they had a similar issue, low scoring games, tie games.

• 46:57Chuck Nice?

  They had the same thing.

• 46:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then they invoke shootouts. Was that generally welcomed or not?

• 47:02Speaker 03

  So I, I think in, in soccer, and again, I grew up in a soccer family, so I'm, I'm probably a soccer purist. You appreciate a tie. If you're playing against a, a, a tough team on the road and you bunker down and you put in a, a solid effort to shut them down and they don't beat you, that's a well deserved point.

• 47:21Chuck Nice?

  See, and that's why soccer is not as popular in America because we are like, you did not win.

• 47:30Gary O'Reilly?

  So the logic, do you know the way the coaches apply the logic?

• 47:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The best headline ever was when they ended the All-Star game in a tie. And was it the New York Post? They said, "There's no tying in baseball."

• 47:42Chuck Nice?

  There's no tying in baseball.

• 47:45Gary O'Reilly?

  So the logic is, we didn't lose the game, we lost the penalty shootout. And that's how coaches put a positive spin to keep the morale of the team unit together.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Well, a penalty shootout's a point, to be honest with you.

• 47:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, no, there is science, but that's another show. That's a whole new show. Guys, that's it for us playing with science. And thank you to our audience, it's been fabulous. Thank you, guys. Thank you to Alecko, Eskandarian, to Neil deGrasse Tyson, the good Dr Neil deGrasse Tyson, of course, from Gary O'Reilly, myself, and Chuck Nice. This has been Playing with Science. We look forward to your company soon.

• 48:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science and our Planet Soccer special, and as promised, the bonus segment at the beginning of the show with the Professor Eric Goff from Lynchburg College, Virginia. Professor, you have become, I've decided, a world expert in the Adidas Telstar 18 ball, because I don't think anyone else has investigated it as thoroughly as you. So how are things going with that? You still progressing, or have you concluded?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  We've had our paper published on the Telstar 18 comparison to Brazuca, and we've been answering a lot of media inquiries about the ball. And I should point out, as of the 1st of July, Lynchburg College has been renamed University of Lynchburg, so we'll be using a different moniker from here on out.

• 49:18Gary O'Reilly?

  This means I have to salute.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  If you like.

• 49:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, I might just do that, make it even more formal. Right, let's, I can't ignore what has happened in the last week or so. Some rather, well, no doubt, in the Adidas marketing machine, sent a Telstar 18 ball up to the cosmonauts in space, in the space station, and let them have a go. What on earth, in terms of physics, happens in space as opposed to here on earth?

• 49:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, what, not on Earth, right?

• 49:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Speaker 04

  So the, the space station footage was fascinating. And, I mean, if you're going to be a scientist, you got to love to play. I mean, that's a prerequisite to being a good scientist. And, you know, there's always this, you know, if you ever had the question, what would it be like to kick a soccer ball up while you're orbiting the Earth? If you get to answer that, you're, you're doing good science. So kudos to those on the ISS for, for actually pulling it off and filming it for us.

• 50:22Gary O'Reilly?

  So going back to the World Cup, let's go back to the basics. In terms of Brazuca, we are looking at a completely different ball for Telstar 18. Not just in color, but in the number of panels, the way that they're assembled, et cetera, et cetera. So if you could break that down, that would be ideal.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  So Brazuca, I'm holding one here in my hand, was used in 2014 in Brazil. And it had six panels and it had these very nice circuitous groove shapes that held the panels together through thermal bonding. And it was a much improved ball over the 2010 ball that was used in South Africa, the Jabalani.

• 51:06Gary O'Reilly?

  The much hated, I believe it's become officially known as the much hated Jabalani.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Trying to be kind to poor Jabalani, but yeah, it was, it was a pretty pathetic ball. But the Brazuca was a mass improvement. And when you reduce the number of panels on a ball, you run the risk of it becoming too smooth. So with the eight panels on Jabalani, when you go to Brazuca, it has two fewer panels. Well, they made up for that by having the seams much more circuitous shapes around the ball. And this total seam length was 68% longer than it was on Jabalani. So that added the roughness to the ball. And what it did was it pushed the drag crisis to a lower speed. The big problem with the Jabalani was it had its drag crisis right in the middle of

• 51:53Speaker 04

  where corner kicks and free kicks are, are made. And that drag crisis is where the flow on the ball changes from this turbulent flow to laminar flow as you're slowing it down. And it caused the drag force to, to rocket upwards. The Brazuka didn't have that problem and the Telstar 18 also has six panels. It is a very different topology, the panels have very different shapes. And in fact, for this particular ball, the total seam length here is actually 30% longer than it is on Brazuka.

• 52:26Gary O'Reilly?

  So because of that length difference, and is it a similar depth in terms of the way that the panels are bonded together? Because you've got, if you imagine a sort of a valley running through or around the ball. But the lengths of those areas, what impact will that have on the flight of the ball as far as you're concerned from testing?

• 52:47Speaker 04

  So when you add the seam length like that, you run the risk of making the ball a little bit too rough. You're pushing the drag crisis back to too low a speed. So what Adidas did was they actually made the width of the grooves a little narrower than the ones on Brazuka and a little shallower than on Brazuka. And the texturing on the panels is actually a little shorter than it is on Brazuka. And you can feel it, when I hold these two balls up in my hands, I can tell that the textures on Brazuka are taller than the ones on the Telstar 18.

• 53:22Gary O'Reilly?

  So it's like a stippling.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  That compensated for the added seam length and they have roughly the same drag crisis right now.

• 53:28Gary O'Reilly?

  So what they've done is, even though they've altered certain components of the structure, you will expect that they will perform in much the same way?

• 53:38Speaker 04

  That's right. We've done a whole slew of trajectory testing on the balls to see what would happen under models of various kicks. And it turns out for the really high-speed kicks, so we're talking about, you know, well over, you know, 60 mile an hour launch kicks, the Telstar 18 could go about 8 to 9% shorter distance than the Brazuka did for the same type of kick. It has a slightly larger drag coefficient at high speeds than Brazuka. But from an aerodynamic point of view, given the very different shapes of the panels and the textures and the seams and all that, they're very similar aerodynamically.

• 54:18Gary O'Reilly?

  If we then concentrate on the style of play, because Jubalani, if you were to kick the ball during free play on a longer distance, the flight of the ball was so unpredictable and players hated it. So what happened was, it seemed to suit the teams that played the much shorter style of game. Are we going to see any sort of effects to the style of play with this Telstar 18?

• 54:41Speaker 04

  I don't think you're going to see that much change in the ball. There's a slight, as I said, a slight reduction in the range for a high-speed kick. But, you know, that's going to be something that's noticed by the, you know, the goalkeepers who are going to be kicking the ball way down the pitch. You know, they might notice that compared to Brazuca, it's going a little less far. But as far as style of play, I mean, you know, of course, who's going to win in 2010 when you've got a Jabalani ball that's acting like a beach ball in the air? You're going to get Spain winning because their, you know, their short passing game is what dominated that World Cup.

• 55:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm just wondering, I mean, it's been recorded, there are players, and I mean, the fastest ever recorded strike of a ball in a professional game was something like 130 miles an hour in Portugal. And we have found players hitting the ball at close to 100 miles an hour from free kicks or on volleys. How much will Telstar 18 be affected or manoeuvre if it's hit with that sort of speed and that sort of power?

• 55:49Speaker 04

  Again, it's going to have a slight reduction in the range. This could be, you know, 8 to 9% reduction in the range. When you kick something that fast, I mean, the drag force initially is going to be well over the weight of the ball. You know, the weight of the ball is nearly a pound, and when you're kicking something close to 100 miles an hour like that, the drag force is going well beyond the weight of the ball. So it is really feeling that air resistance as soon as it's being kicked. I mean, obviously, you're going to be able to kick the ball way down the pitch. But I think the players who are capable of reaching speeds like that are going to notice a slight range reduction. But aerodynamically, as far as what's going to happen with the knuckling of the ball, the kind of the wobbling with no spin, it's going to be similar to what Brazuca was.

• 56:33Gary O'Reilly?

  We've seen what initially in 1970 was known as banana kick, the curling free kick. Will Telstar 18 be more inclined to make that happen? Or will it fly a little bit true? Or will we, as we've decided already, with just kicking with force? It's very similar to Brazuca.

• 56:57Speaker 04

  I think it's going to be similar to Brazuca. I mean, the aerodynamic properties that we've measured on the ball show that the different flow types around the ball are very similar to Brazuca. And when you start spinning the ball, of course, you lose the knuckling effects because the surfaces are changing with respect to the air coming over. But the idea behind a banana kick is, you know, when you kick that ball with a lot of spin like this, if this is the front part of the ball going in, you know, away from the player that kicked it, if it's spinning this way, that boundary layer of air gets whipped off the back and it gets moved in the direction of the spin. So, you know, in the direction my finger's pointing here to the left. So you can get a lot of players that are on corner kicks that are purposely going to

• 57:40Speaker 04

  be kicking that ball, trying to, you know, have it steering toward a goal so that their, you know, teammate can head it into the goal or even away from the goal. You often see that, too.

• 57:49Gary O'Reilly?

  So I think a lot of people, and it's funny, players will, if you didn't tell them which ball was which, they would notice differences within a number of balls. They would even tell you that one ball felt lighter or heavier than another. And then they would watch and see how the ball reacted in certain ways that they kick it, pass it short, pass it long, pass it medium range, hit with power, all the different array of techniques they can bring towards their game. Are we going to see anything spectacular, different with this ball for Russia 2018?

• 58:28Speaker 04

  I don't think you're going to see quite the change that you saw from 2010 to 2014. Certainly not from the teamgeist that was used in Germany in 2006 to 2010. The, I mean, I don't think the FIFA wants to roll out a ball that is so drastically different from what the players are used to, just to play with them and see something kind of spectacular. I mean, you could almost make a standard within making us, I mean, if you look at the rules in soccer, really, it's just the size of the ball and the weight that are specified. I think a better specification, well, I shouldn't say a better, another specification would be to add a drag curve. I mean, you don't want to make a mistake like with Javialani and have a drag crisis

• 59:12Speaker 04

  at too high a speed. You want to be able to give the players something that has a familiarity to it. But like you said, if you're at the elite level, you're going to notice slight changes. I mean, it's impossible for these two balls to fly exactly the same.

• 59:26Gary O'Reilly?

  And the players, if they find a unique quality that the ball, say like Javialani did, they will find a way to utilise that. The players will find a way to make it beneficial for them, for sure.

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Look at Honda's free kick for Japan in 2010. I mean, that ball did not have much spin on it at all, but that poor goalkeeper looked like he was trying to bat a beach ball coming at him. I mean, you know, you can definitely do things with these balls once you get a feeling for them. I mean, a professional tennis player is going to notice just a couple of pounds change in the tension in the racket. So they're going to notice these things. You know, I mean, a baseball player, you shave off a tiny amount on a hand, on the grip of a bat, they're going to notice that.

• 1:00:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Professor, thank you. It's been interesting to talk to you. Professor Eric Goff with the soon-to-be University of Lynchburg, talking about this year's World Cup football, the Adidas Telstar 18. Hope you've enjoyed Planet Soccer. Look forward to your company on Playing with Science very, very soon.