#ICYMI - Conquering Mountains, with Vanessa O’Brien

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel… Explore the world of mountaineering as hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly take a mental expedition to the world’s highest peaks alongside world-record breaking mountain climber Vanessa O’Brien and mountain guide and physician Alan Oram, D. O. Photo Credit: Photo taken by Vanessa O’Brien (using a timer) on October 4, 2011 near the summit of Shishapangma, the world’s 14th highest mountain climbing from Tibet. [CC BY-SA 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], via http://vobonline.com/.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:10Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  And this is Playing with Science. Life, it seems, is full of mountains. Some we conquer, some we don't. And then for some of us, one is not enough. We have to find more.

• 0:22Chuck Nice?

  Yes, that will be seven to be exact, each the highest mountain on each of the seven continents. And because it's still not enough, some of us have to do it quicker than anyone else before them.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Our special guest today is a rock star of the highest order. Vanessa O'Brien is the owner of the Seven Summits World Record, but even that was not enough. She has conquered K2, and this is the scariest stat I think I've ever said, the mountain that claims one in four who attempt it. And she has skied the last degree at both poles, no doubt just for kicks and giggles. As we know, though, summiting is incredibly dangerous for your health. Yeah, really, no kidding. So Chuck, if you had to pick, who would be your best mountain guide?

• 1:11Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna go with God himself, because that's the only way you will find me on a mountain. It will be a cold day in hell. No, actually, I want somebody who's a trained physician, especially a medical emergency trained physician with a good bedside manner. And who better to be that than Dr. Alan Oram, who is one of only two currently registered in the USA. He will no doubt, along with his medical know-how, be bringing us insight into high altitude science.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Yes, but before we get to the good doctor, let's meet our very special guest, shall we? I said she is a rock star of the highest order, and you knew exactly what I meant by that. Vanessa O'Brien. Wow.

• 1:54Chuck Nice?

  It is so great to have you here.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Nice to be here. How are you guys?

• 1:58Chuck Nice?

  I gotta tell you, I'm a-

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Explorer of the year.

• 2:00Chuck Nice?

  Explorer of the year. Fantastic.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03Chuck Nice?

  Um, you're just, uh, first of all, so I've spent so much time on YouTube, watching you and the climb and all the footage of you and, you know, I have to say that, um, it is, I was cold and tired, exhausted and hurt.

• 2:26Chuck Nice?

  After watching the video, it is a monumental undertaking, any summit. So I'm gonna ask you, everybody says K2 is the hardest, so I'm gonna go completely opposite. What's the easiest?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Well, so of the seven summits, the easiest is probably Caziasco. And that's in Australia.

• 2:49Chuck Nice?

  Australia, yes.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  That's Australia. So that is, and you mentioned seven summits. So, right there, I'll have to hedge and say, there's really eight.

• 3:03Chuck Nice?

  There's really eight?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  And that's because there's two sets of seven summits, and what I like to call the CYA seven summits. So, there's a seventh summit choice for the seven summits.

• 3:15Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Based on two lists. There's the Bass List and the Mezner List.

• 3:20Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  The Bass List is based on Richard Dick Bass, who was a businessman, who was the first to come up with the concept of the seven summits. He was a layman, looked out at a map of the world, naturally looked and chose, when looking at continents, Australia, as the seventh summit, and therefore Caziasco, which is 7,310 feet. Not very, not much larger than Mount Washington.

• 3:44Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Mezner, being a mountaineer, looked at Australia and said it would take longer to fly there than to climb it, and wouldn't really waste his time. So he developed a notion of Oceana, or Australasia, and therefore chose Kersten's Pyramid as the seventh summit. Therefore, the CYA, which you know stands for?

• 4:06Chuck Nice?

  Of your ass.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  I wasn't going to say it.

• 4:10Chuck Nice?

  Or, yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  But yes, so if you want to do both lists, you would effectively do eight.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  So where's Kersten's Pyramid?

• 4:18Speaker 02

  That's Western New Guinea, which is Papua, so it's the old Irian Jawa.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Cool.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  And they're quite different, because that's 16,050 feet. So imagine 7,000, 16,000, and the Mezner List of Kersten's Pyramid, he introduced the only rock climbing.

• 4:36Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Okay, in the seven summit series. So, very, very different choice of...

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Different challenge altogether.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Different challenge altogether.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  Let's go back to the beginning. You weren't born a rock climber, you weren't born a mountaineer, I'm guessing. You wake up one morning and say, I'm doing it.

• 4:54Chuck Nice?

  Hmm.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a mountaineer. It's Everest, it's K two, whatever you got, bring it on. Then what happens? You can't just say, I've packed my bag, I'm off, I'll see you in a year.

• 5:04Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  How do you know about the process of preparing? Because.

• 5:08Chuck Nice?

  You make your way down to the local playground and start on the monkey bars, I mean.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  So, so really, uh, okay, so there is, there is, um. You know, there's book knowledge, right, that we can all gain through research, knowledge. You know, and that's great. Everybody should undertake that, that's for free. Then there is experiential knowledge. You have to go out and do it, you have to make those mistakes. Um. There, there really aren't, um. There aren't courses per se in mountaineering. The way you and I might take a course, um, you know. In motor racing or something like that, in these, in these car schools or something that teach you how to drive.

• 5:51Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Um, it doesn't really work like that. So the best thing to do is, is really just sign up on, on, for something. Where you have to go and put on that kit, you have to learn what a harness is, you have to learn what a helmet is, you have to learn what crampons are, how they work. And, you know, just start to use them and start to make those mistakes.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Not the bad ones.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Well, you, you hope that by the time you get into a bad situation, you have accumulated knowledge and experience where you're not going to, you know, blow it or do something too dangerous.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  What is the appeal? Once, once you've, I wanna say mastered, once you've got a grip, literally, on a lot of the things you need to know. What's the thrill? What's the appeal? What's the drive behind wanting to summit one of these big peaks?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I don't know really of, of much. I don't know of anything that's, that's a harder challenge. It's, it's kind of, um. You know, man versus nature. You know, uh, it's, it's, it's much more than physical, it's, it's a mental, um. Uh, mental, spiritual, physical, um.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  It's like everything that could possibly be put on the table is out there with that challenge. There's nothing that I know of that you can do otherwise that can really give you that entire challenge in your life. So there's no, there's no assignment at work that you can be given, let's say, that can stimulate you in that, in that same way.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  Does each mountain teach you something different about you?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, teaches you something different about you, about your teams, about, you know, how you work with others, you know, nature, it teaches you something, all sorts of things, you know, that, you know, depending on your experience and what happens.

• 7:47Chuck Nice?

  So when you talk about, okay, so the K2 summit, you are the first woman to successfully summit, and by successful, I mean to go up and return, because...

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Incorrect.

• 8:01Chuck Nice?

  No, really?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  You said first woman, that's not true. I'm the 50th woman and the first American and...

• 8:08Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I'm sorry, the first American and British woman, right.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Here's the stat, here's the stat, Chuck, there are more women who've gone to space than have summited K2.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Correct, three times more.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  How's that, does that kind of put things in perspective?

• 8:22Chuck Nice?

  That's, that's pretty, that's pretty incredible.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  150 women have been to space.

• 8:27Chuck Nice?

  Right. Only 50 have, have actually summited K2. Right. And now the, so, but there are American women that have come before you that have reached the top, right?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:38Chuck Nice?

  Never?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Never.

• 8:40Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so, who, who...

• 8:42Speaker 02

  There were two British women who got to the top and died on the...

• 8:45Chuck Nice?

  And they died at the top, oh.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Which is why I said that, one in four.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Yep, so, so, so that was Julie Tullis and Alison Hargreaves.

• 8:55Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  And so it, it, it does show that, you know... It it's a very dangerous pursuit because it, you know, eighty-five percent of dust happen on the way down. So that's not just K two, though. That could be any eight thousand meter peak.

• 9:10Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I was gonna say that the same. They said the same thing about Everest as well. It's not getting up, it's getting down. That's that's really the. Why is that? Why is it that? Because you think that there's intuitively, it would seem that there's less energy needed to get down. It would seem that there's less, you you exert yourself less. I mean, and that's only because all of us has climbed a tree when we were a kid.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 9:37Chuck Nice?

  And we know how hard it was to get up there. And then, you know, getting down is not the hard part. So why?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  So we're playing with science. So let's take a step back.

• 9:46Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Thank you. Let's go with the air we breathe.

• 9:49Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Take a breath.

• 9:52Chuck Nice?

  We're in New York. I'd rather not take a breath.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  But we're in the studio. It could be safer.

• 9:57Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  All right. So whether you're on the radio with us now, or whether you're in the studio now, seventy-eight percent of the air we breathe is what? Oxygen. No. Pollution. It is. It is a gas.

• 10:12Chuck Nice?

  It's nitrogen, right?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Nitrogen, correct. Seventy-eight percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen. Twenty-one point nine percent is, I'll give you a, I'll give you a vowel, oxygen.

• 10:23Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Okay. So that's primarily the two things. The the there's trace gases for the rest. It's argon, CO2, everything else.

• 10:31Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  That is the air we breathe. That is the same at sea level as it is on the top of Everest.

• 10:36Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  So what changes?

• 10:38Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Something changes, but it's not the composition of air.

• 10:44Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  What changes is pressure.

• 10:46Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  So the higher we climb, the lower the atmospheric pressure.

• 10:50Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  So all when we're sitting here, there's lots and lots of these molecules. And we when we take a breath, there's lots of molecules that enter our system. When we're at the top of the mountain, all these molecules are so spread apart.

• 11:03Chuck Nice?

  Stretched out.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  That's why you see a climber take one breath. One molecule comes in, they're huffing and puffing. Another molecule comes in, huffing and puffing. It's more painful than watching golf.

• 11:15Chuck Nice?

  So it's funny because what you just said there and is really fascinating because most people say when you climb a mountain, there's no oxygen up there.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Into thin air.

• 11:25Chuck Nice?

  That's whatever, into thin air. There's no oxygen up there. But you're saying the mixture is the same.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Mixture's the same. The reason it's thin air is because the pressure.

• 11:34Chuck Nice?

  Pressure, spreading it out.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  It's pushing the molecules apart.

• 11:36Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  And therefore, it's the composition's the same. It's just that these molecules are now so. Your body's working harder to bring that in. It, well, it's, yeah, you're, you're under exertion, of course. But here, you know, if I were to draw like all these molecules, like really close together now, pressure spread them all apart. You're just not getting.

• 11:56Chuck Nice?

  Right, you're not getting it.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  You're not getting it.

• 11:57Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  So now, what does the body do? Because the body's very clever. You're going higher and it's sensing you don't have what you need. You have the oxygen tank out. No, it's building red blood cells.

• 12:09Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Oh, so it goes into an automatic defense mechanism. Hemoglobin starts producing more and more red blood cells naturally.

• 12:16Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Now, where have we heard this before? Blood blank.

• 12:21Chuck Nice?

  Doping?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yes. Ding ding ding ding ding.

• 12:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Blood doping. Did you go there straight away? Now.

• 12:27Chuck Nice?

  Because you know how I feel about doping.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. So it's free, it's natural, and it's necessary.

• 12:34Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  We're getting this EPO, which is, you know, completely natural. It's stimulated by the kidneys. This is something that mountaineers are getting as we climb higher.

• 12:46Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Naturally stimulated, and this is what we're getting, is the, the nice red blood cells to help us with this oxygen deprivation.

• 12:54Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  The problem is that this thick oxygen that's now in our blood system is really, really thick and puts us at twice the risk for a heart attack and stroke. Okay, it's something good, but there's a shadow, and that shadow is that thickness, right? So we work really, really, really, really hard to get to the top, give all this energy to get there. And, and people will say, hey, you know, sometimes people burn all that, you know, energy to get there, and they don't leave that reserve. So when that eighty-five percent statistic comes in.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  They've given everything, thinking that the summit is the goal. The summit is never the goal.

• 13:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  It's round trip return.

• 13:34Chuck Nice?

  Round trip return. Got it.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Because there's no point.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  We're programmed, we're pre-programmed to get to the top of the mountain. That's it. End of story.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  But that's never the goal. The goal is return trip, round trip return. Because, and Hillary, you know, Sermon Hillary fought this for years, you know, unless you returned, there was no point. There was no point because there was no one to tell the tale.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  We will take a break now, uh, but don't panic. Vanessa O'Brien will still be with us after this break.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Welcome back. You're listening to Playing with Science and this is our very special mountaineering show. And we are honoured to have the extraordinary Vanessa O'Brien as our special guest. Now, just before the break, we got stuck into what it takes to be a top mountaineer. Even before you get to base camp, you've got to not only prepare yourself, but as a team leader, as you were and are, past tense, present tense, how do you select your team? What are the key factors for you strategising to build a team that you know will successfully summit and come back again?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  So I have never been fortunate enough to select a team. Because of funding. In most cases, sponsorship does not really exist in high altitude mountaineering.

• 15:00Chuck Nice?

  That makes sense.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Because it is deemed too high risk.

• 15:03Chuck Nice?

  Of course. I mean, listen, think about it. Think about it. I'm, um, I'm Nissan, right? And I want to sponsor your team and I make a big to do out of it and then you fricking die. I, I just wasted a lot of money because I can't say a word to anybody.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  But think about it also, there's, there's no better way to get that message. Being number one, getting to the top, the hard work that goes into, Right. Driven to explore, which happened to be one of Mercedes' sponsorships at a mountain. Right. You know.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Thing is, I'm putting my brand.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Hard-earned brand loyalty, brand value.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  Up there, and I'm, I'm rolling a dice.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  No, no. But it's a big risk, but it's a big payoff, too. It's a big, big payoff, and that's the point. Risk and reward payoff, right? The higher the risk, the higher the reward. Absolutely. However, people never talk about mitigating risk. Okay. So here's how you would mitigate the risk, is what you publish and when you publish it. You would capture everything, of course you would. But if you were really risk averse, you wouldn't publish a single thing until that expedition was finished. Right. And then everything would go into production. Right. If you were very risk averse. Right. You would never not capture it. Of course. If you weren't risk averse, like I had a, a play with credit cards where every camp you would pick, you know, pick a name and pay off a credit card bill, let's say.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  How fun, because you get your entire, you know, customer base involved, let's say. Mm-hmm. Now, something like that can be very consumer-driven and a lot of fun, but now you're a hundred percent vested and engaged, so you are open to taking the risk with the consumer.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Do you guess that Vanessa has a background in finance?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Now, okay, but, but putting all that stuff aside. Okay. Now, the, the problem with, uh, you know, these expeditions is it, there is one of economics. Right. So it, it takes X number of people to make a trip economically feasible. Okay. So what I mean by that is, in choosing a team, it tends, without sponsorship, it tends to be the number of people looking to go. And so people tend to be put together who have similar, uh, you know, like-minded goals and, you know, want to do similar things.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  They have to go through psychological testing and profiling. Before they get onto a team?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  No, it's nothing like that.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  No, okay.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  No, I mean it's.

• 17:28Chuck Nice?

  So what are the credentials that are necessary? Like for instance, there if I just showed up and I was like, hey, so you guys climbing a day? Like that's.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Well.

• 17:37Chuck Nice?

  Can't do that.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  No, I mean.

• 17:39Chuck Nice?

  You would have to have some credentials.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  To to get on a permit in either Nepal or Pakistan, this is the Karakoram in the Himalayas, you you would have to have some climbing experience. So they are looking for every permit that they issue that every member has, you know, at least climbed an eight thousand meter peak, let's say, if you're going to an eight thousand meter peak.

• 17:56Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Um, you know, this doesn't apply for the cooks or the base camp staff because they're just going to be walking, you know.

• 18:03Chuck Nice?

  That's where they're staying. They're staying there. Okay, so now let me ask you this. What what can you give us? When we think of teams, of course, this is a sports show, sports science show, but still sports. When we think of teams, we think of positions. Okay, and like, you know, in football, you have a quarterback, you have a wide receiver and you have a lineman. Okay, in soccer, you have a striker, you have a forward. So now, when your team, do you have positions and what are they responsible for? What do you guys, what, how do you divvy up the responsibilities?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 18:34Chuck Nice?

  What are the responsibilities?

• 18:35Speaker 02

  No, I mean, we we do. Um, so, you know, if if the team has Sherpa or high altitude porters, uh, those those team members tend to go out, um, and investigate the route, uh, put in some of the fixed lines. Um, uh, before, say, uh, team members go up to, you know, in advance of team members setting up camp.

• 18:58Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  So, uh, and that's because some of the, some of the, there are some bottlenecks in some of these areas. So Hillary Step is a good one on Everest. Um, there's Houses Chimney and and the Black Pyramid, uh, on K two.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  It sounds like a Harry Potter book.

• 19:12Chuck Nice?

  It is, I know. So when you say bottleneck, this is like extremely narrow passages, right? And so I saw in your video at one point, there was like a single person passage that you were going through and you were all in a single file. It looked absolutely terrifying. It was not just climbing like like you're mountain climbing, but it was also like rock climbing while you were mountain climbing. Do can, do you know what that is? Would you be able to tell me where that was?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  It could be one of the two, three things. I mean, so sometimes on, uh. And and this does get a little bit into to climate a little bit so.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  With climate change, a lot of these, so if you look at a mountain in at a distance. Right. It looks like it's full of snow. Right. But when you're when you're actually on it, it's full of rock. And unfortunately, over the years, with with climate change, and I would prefer that word over, say, global warming. Right.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  These mountains are so high, how high are they? So let's talk about that. This this is, you know, let's say eight thousand, nine thousand meters or twenty six to twenty nine thousand feet. This is at the very, very top of the troposphere. All weather, all weather takes place here and below. So, you know, when you have these jet streams pounding on these mountains at two hundred, three hundred miles an hour, first of all, all the snow is just getting ripped off. You've also got all these, you know, really, really hot weather, sun baking on these mountains, melting all the snow and ice. So increasingly with, you know, the climate change that's happening, you've got less and less snow and ice.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  When I talk to the old mountaineers from the sixties and seventies who are still alive, they simply say, thank God, I'm not climbing this stuff now. Because I I was wearing crampons and I had ice and snow. I I have to wear crampons and I'm often having to wear crampons on rock, which is the wrong tool for the job. Gotcha. I can't switch footwear. Oh, crap. Yeah, big crap.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  Probably not what she said.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Tell me you did, you're far too polite to say things like that.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Very nice.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Halfway on the mountain, oh dang. So I mean, you what are you to?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  So so you know, really, to to answer your question, it's just, it's very, very hard when there's a lot of rock and you're in these single file positions because the traffic is the same way up as it is down. And and if you're at a really high altitude, you are you are stuck. If somebody's taking an hour to get up there, you're an hour behind them.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Oh. What what we are learning, well, I am most certainly.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Say, I never want to do this.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  But that we knew.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  And I might not be far behind you. Over the course of decades, mountains have changed.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  They do.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Because of the climate change. But I guess from a day to day basis, this thing almost has its own life force. And the mountain you start climbing at the beginning of the day, isn't the mountain halfway through the day or the end of the day.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  How on earth do you plan for hour to hour to deal with basically what is a living rock?

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Uh, well, this is a big deal on Everest. Everest has that Kumbu Icefall, which is the first thing out of base camp. So it's a three thousand foot shifting maze of, you know, glacial ice that is constantly shifting and moving. So it becomes very dangerous.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  When to get through it, because.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  How many people turn around and go, oh, that's it, then forget it?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Well, you know, there's, there's been people, sixteen people killed in one day.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  You know, towering cirraks come down and.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Get right on top of them. So it's probably the most dangerous part of, of the whole mountain, actually, is right at the beginning.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Um, so that's, you know, each mountain has its little idiosyncrasies. Um, now, funny enough, Everest this year had the highest number of summits ever on, on the record of history. In twenty, twenty eighteen, it had seven hundred summits.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Um, it surpassed twenty thirteen, I think was the previous record. So.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Almost sounds like there's a rush hour.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Well, it, it, seven hundred is a lot.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  A lot of people in one.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  A lot of people.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  A lot, a lot of people in one season.

• 23:26Chuck Nice?

  I've, I've seen, um, actual pictures of that where it looks like the people are lined up in a conga line going up.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:32Chuck Nice?

  And I, I say it's because, you know, in Nepal, they have this, um, you know, this Sherpa community.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:39Chuck Nice?

  That, um, they are so good at, uh, being able to take people up.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:45Chuck Nice?

  And they, by the way, have the highest risk involved.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:50Chuck Nice?

  Because they're always going before.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:53Chuck Nice?

  And as a result, they are the most susceptible to avalanche.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:57Chuck Nice?

  And you have a great many of the people in the community who are dying, uh, so that tourists can actually go up Everest, you know?

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yep. Now, uh, I believe last year, the year before, they now allow equipment to be helicoptered up to Camp One. So the Sherpa are not taking that equipment.

• 24:15Chuck Nice?

  Thank God.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  So there's, there's a change. That will have environmental effects, though, because.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know that a helicopter.

• 24:24Chuck Nice?

  It's probably helicopters don't belong up there.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:26Chuck Nice?

  But you know, to I mean, really what should happen is, and it's a shame that it's become such a part of their economy.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 24:32Chuck Nice?

  But what should happen is, we shouldn't be. People like you should be doing this. People like me who want to go to a cocktail party and talk about it shouldn't be doing this. Like mountaineers, I don't mind, uh, you know, certain other people who are doing it for research. People who are doing it to write about it, like purposeful, uh, uh, summoning, which I'll call it that, makes sense to me.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Well, you know, a mountain year starts somewhere. So I think it depends what your, what your purpose is in wanting to do it, right?

• 25:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  You know, if, if somebody is wants to really train hard and, you know, do it the right way, you know, I.

• 25:13Chuck Nice?

  I don't have a problem with that.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  I don't have a problem with that.

• 25:15Chuck Nice?

  No, because you're making the commitment. That's what I'm saying. It's, it's like if you're making the commitment. I'm talking about somebody who just, you know, like who wants to say, I did it. Yeah, yeah. What you do it just so as they can tell a story. Yeah, so you can tell a story at a cocktail party. I think I'm a little, I'm a little, I got a little problem with that.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  If it's on a bucket list, then that's not a, that's not cool.

• 25:33Chuck Nice?

  Gosh.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

• 25:35Chuck Nice?

  Well, we gotta take a break.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  We have.

• 25:37Chuck Nice?

  But you're gonna stay with us, right?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 25:39Chuck Nice?

  And I gotta read you this quote when we come back. I just want to get your, it's a, do you know this French alpinist? His name is, uh, Gaston Rebofah? Rebofah, uh, and, and wait, our, our producer is. Nowhere near, that's the. Our, our producer is French. Uh, uh, Johnny, is it Gaston Rebofah?

• 26:00Chuck Nice?

  Uh, close it. He went like this. Close it, Rebofah.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 26:06Chuck Nice?

  So anyway, he says this. Our producer so hates you right now. Really hates you. All right. So this is what, uh, this is what he said. Um, mountains provide a mirror of stone and ice. A mirror which helps us know ourselves. Reaching a mountain summit requires that we confront the reflection we find in the stone mirror. Working with all that is weak, lazy and fearful within ourselves. Do you agree with that?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  I think that's a great quote. Um, I know one I always go back to is Reinhold Mesner, who says, mountains aren't fair or unfair. They're just dangerous.

• 26:39Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I like that. I have several girlfriends who fit that description.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Well, you can substitute girlfriends for mountains then.

• 26:48Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I already have.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  And, and if Mrs Nice is listening.

• 26:53Chuck Nice?

  Are you kidding me? Mrs Nice was the last one.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Oh. Gary's gonna keep his mouth shut. Right, let's take that break. Vanessa O'Brien, the fabulous Vanessa O'Brien, will be with us and will be speaking to one of only two registered mountaineering guides, who is a qualified physician, Dr Alan Oram. That's all when we get back.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. As you will be more than aware, if you've been listening from the beginning, we do hope you are, Vanessa O'Brien, the lady who summited the seven summits faster than anyone else in the world. A Guinness.

• 27:35Chuck Nice?

  A Guinness World Record holder.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Is with us and still with us, but now we are honoured to have Dr Alan Oram on the show. One of only two registered mountaineering guides.

• 27:48Chuck Nice?

  In the US.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  In the US of A, that is a registered physician and in particular emergency.

• 27:55Chuck Nice?

  Emergency medicine physician.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, Doctor, welcome to Playing with Science. So how are you?

• 28:01Speaker 03

  I'm fine, thank you.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  If you're actually on a mountain with a team, what is the most common sort of predicament or problem that you face as far as you're concerned?

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Um, I think, I mean, I, I help people with a variety of things. I think at altitude, the, the problems that most climbers experience do have to do with altitude. Some are obvious, some are less so. Injuries, I think, are pretty obvious, but the question about high altitude illness is, I think, probably the more common thing that I get calls about, or often it may just be a text through satellite technology. But altitude, I think, is probably the most common issue that I have to deal with.

• 28:45Chuck Nice?

  So with altitude, is that the AMS, this acute mountain sickness, or is that something different?

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Acute mountain sickness is is one of the um common uh forms of uh altitude illness. There's also high altitude cerebral edema and high altitude pulmonary edema.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Uh acute mountain sickness is more common, um but uh you don't, you wouldn't die from AMS. Uh uh high altitude pulmonary edema, it would be the thing that would really kinda do you in as well as haste or cerebral edema.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Vanessa, I mean, you've been there. So a number of occasions. How do you self manage yourself? Do you say, no, no, no, it's not a problem, I can get through this? Or do you have to go, I need to, I need to deal with this now? If you get this acute mountain sickness, if you get these conditions, how, how do you deal with these?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Well, well, I think um if, first of all, in the high altitude medical kits, we, we do carry medicines. So things like dexamethasone, uh neftipine, uh azetazolamide or diamox. Um, you know, the, these are all uh tools in the toolkit, if you will, um for uh emergencies if they occur. Um, uh, hopefully you don't have to use them, but they're there if you need them. You know, you have to remember in, in many cases in, in the Himalayas of the Karakoram, we're, we're miles and miles, what, three hundred miles from, you know, the closest hospital. And there is no helicopter rescue in, you know, in places like Pakistan, you know?

• 30:22Speaker 02

  They don't have helicopters for hi- for hire, for example, they're fighting wars, you know, there, there's other uses for helicopters there.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  So, you know, we have to be self sufficient with it, with the medicine. So, um, and, and believe it or not, uh, there is other medicine like Viagra, which uh may sound funny to you, but uh.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  No, no, I've heard of that being used.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  But that's a, you know, it's a basal dilator and, you know, it's important because.

• 30:48Chuck Nice?

  Because you never know when things might get sexy on a mountain, just saying. Oh dear.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 30:56Chuck Nice?

  Get time on the mountain.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Nope, there's never, there's never that, trust me, people don't take.

• 31:01Chuck Nice?

  You're getting voted off the mountain.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  People don't take showers and this is, this is not a sexy time.

• 31:06Chuck Nice?

  No sexy time on the mountain.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  This sexy time.

• 31:09Chuck Nice?

  So doctor. But a basal dilator, by the way, actually increases blood flow. So that can be very important, especially when you're in a high altitude scenario. But go ahead.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  No, so the doctor, you know, can take it from there, but we need all those things because if the emergencies rise, then, you know, we have them for if and when they occur.

• 31:30Chuck Nice?

  So Doc, let me ask you this. When it comes to injuries, falling, I would say is something that you don't want to do while you're climbing. Well. But people fall and they injure themselves. So now that we're talking about these type of illnesses that can beset a person at these altitudes, these kind of altitude sicknesses. Does one precipitate the other? Does a person get sick and they fall? Is that, is that a common occurrence that the altitude sickness actually causes a person to fall? Like, like when somebody breaks a hip. Normally your hip broke and then you fell. People think you broke a hip because you fell. Normally it's your hip broke and made you fall.

• 32:13Chuck Nice?

  So which, which one is more common? Is it just human error that causes a person to fall or illness causes the person to fall?

• 32:20Speaker 03

  I, I would say it's probably human error and movement or the lack of ability for people to move in a smooth fashion. Generally, at least on the bigger 8,000 meter peaks, a lot of those routes have fixed lines. So you're always attached to a rope. But sometimes you're not and you can certainly fall and injure yourself. Does one lead to the other? I certainly think that fatigue and.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Having headaches and AMS symptoms certainly can contribute. But I'm not so sure that there's, you know, one always begets the other. I think just simply falling with, because you can't move very well because of fatigue, elevation, crampons, icy surfaces, I think all those things contribute.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Cool, okay. Okay, while your pair of you are here, firstly hypoxia, if you can explain, doctor, exactly what that is, and then sort of mind the fact of what is the science and the physiology behind this condition, so as I understand, as well as any of our listeners who don't already know.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  Hypoxia is the lack of oxygen delivered to the body, whether that's through something central or peripheral, and so in high altitude on this, when we gain altitude, there's less available oxygen because of the low pressure, such that you're not breathing the normal amount of oxygen that you normally would, say at sea level. The effect of that is that your body has to work harder to do the work that it normally would have to do at altitude, and so the things that happen with hypoxia, at least to the body, are a combination of problems such as AMS, which can lead to cerebral edema,

• 34:11Speaker 03

  and then pulmonary edema as well, which is a type of edema that's related to hypoxia and elevated pressures in the pulmonary vessels in the heart.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  So if you're the guide on a summit, and you are obviously looking after your own self-interests, but you have a duty to the people you have with you, how difficult is it for you, as a mountaineer and a doctor, to manage those things in the best way?

• 34:45Speaker 03

  That's a good question. I think that as a guide, I think you have to be

• 34:54Speaker 03

  very aware of how you feel and how you're performing at altitude. And the responsibility is to make sure that your safety is paramount. If you're not safe, your clients aren't safe. And so taking care of yourself either through medication or decision making, which may mean going down, may be prudent. And I think that's a tough thing, especially with ego.

• 35:19Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  The finances, et cetera, to make that decision. As a physician, I think I tend to be very conservative when I'm climbing. And I will tend to pull back before I go forward if I'm not feeling right. If my decision making performance is off, I'm going to pay attention to that because the safety of both myself and the team.

• 35:44Chuck Nice?

  Interesting. Thank you for that. Before you go on a climb, can you talk to us about the medical condition that a person wants to be in before they even attempt something like this? I mean, I would assume that there's a good and bad candidate for climbing. And what makes you, what makes you a bad candidate? Looking like you and I. Well, believe me, if you put, if you put my face up to bad candidate, I will not be disappointed or offended.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  I think that that too is an excellent question and one that I face frequently, maybe not at very, very high altitude. But where I work here in the Tetons, it's, I think people's perception of what they're about to do or what they want to do is different than reality.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  That people's fitness is definitely not always the best. And I think that when people come into these situations, they really have to decide, are they going to train or not? And it shouldn't be just a simple decision. It takes work. I'm sure Vanessa trained hard for all those, all the peaks she did. Success is paramount to fitness. Wow.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Okay Vanessa, so is there fit? And then is there mountain fit? And how, how do you get from one to the other? Yeah, how do you train?

• 37:20Speaker 02

  So it depends what I'm doing. So I think 8,000 meters is a little bit different because to me that's, that's really about VO2 max and it's about the utilization of oxygen. So the best training for high altitude is, is really cardiovascular. Putting on muscle, a lot of muscle will, will work against me. And what I mean by that is when oxygen is a limited resource, the brain and the lungs must have that and muscle will compete for that. So I, I need to have the highest VO2 max I can possibly achieve and be the most cardiovascular fit.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  If I put on, if I become Mr. Atlas or Schwarzenegger or something like that, I'm going to fail.

• 38:10Chuck Nice?

  Back and get up the mountain.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  That muscle will, that muscle will compete for the oxygen I don't have.

• 38:15Chuck Nice?

  Get to the mountain.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  But go ahead. Sorry people.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So, but now if I'm pulling sleds and I'm going to the North Pole, I need muscle.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And I'm not climbing very high, so I'm training very, very differently for that.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  Is it also to do with weight? Interesting. Because you've got to, you've got to haul that extra weight, albeit muscle.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Well, you're not, you're not.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  If you're sledding, you're going horizontally, more or less.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  It's very deceiving when you're climbing really, really high altitude, you are not carrying a lot of weight, not as much weight as you think you are. You're carrying enough, you know, from that final camp, let's say, you know, whatever camp you end up at and there is, let's say it's four to summit, you know, you. If you're with oxygen, you know, oxygen might weigh, you know, ten pounds, something like that. Uh, you've got maybe two water bottles, maybe a thermos, a change of clothes, you're not carrying as much weight as you think you are.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Um, so, you know, but, but if you're pulling sleds, you are carrying a lot of weight.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  What was the hardest part for you to, to get to a condition where you felt in control and comfortable?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Well, well, let me put it another way. You, you must show up in your best, your best fitness self.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  On any, any endeavor.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Which, which means, you know, um, that you have strength, that you have flexibility, you have good, um, you know, uh, um, a good core.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Because, you know, you're not gonna have a good balance in, in many occasions.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  So you must, you must show up as your best fitness self.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  But, but you should understand what you're undertaking and the difference in training for that.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  So that's the physicality. You don't just climb with your body. Surely you must engage a mental process. And not just, I'm seeing, I'm doing it, but, and the doctor can probably attest this, he may have touched on it already. If I am a complete nutcase and I turn up and say, I'm gonna go and do this mountain thing, you know my mentality is nowhere near where it should be. Is it the kind of, I've gotta dial everything down and be calm, be thoughtful, or do you have to have a different or a slightly, well, yeah, a different approach than that?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  So, so, fear plays an, an important role. Um, you know, it, it's an obvious mechanism that tells you something is wrong and, you know, kicks in when it needs to kick in, but it can also, it can also be a devil's advocate and, and do the, a wrong thing too.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Um, so, so I've seen people use fear as an excuse too. And, you know, some of these expedition, uh, some of these expeditions are six to eight weeks, right?

• 40:59Speaker 00

  Uh-huh.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  This is a long time.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  So people start to psych themselves out. They start to see like bad weather, they start to see like avalanches, they start to like remember, you know, hey.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  How do you control that? Cause you can't control this, the weather systems, you can't control how the mountain's going to behave that day, so the thing you can control is what goes off in here.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you've gotta have, you know, a really strong focus and a mental, you know, um... You know, mental fortitude that that keeps your focus, you know, where it should be, which is, you know, on on the objective. Now, weather is is just a wild card, so you know, that reading is all over the place. But but I've seen people, you know, start to spread fear about, you know, the weather looks bad and it keeps looking bad and there'll be no summit and, you know, they start to talk themselves out of a summit almost and they start to remember an anniversary back home and how they got to get home and then they start to develop illnesses and suddenly, like, you know, their head's not here.

• 41:59Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  And when their head's not here, they're not here.

• 42:01Chuck Nice?

  So Doc, when, speaking of fear, so part of your training as a doctor is, you know, I guess they call it a bedside manner, but it's really psychology. If you think about it, it's like, it's pretty much getting into a patient's head and then allowing them to let you do your job. So, uh, do you, how much of that do you use when you're, when you're guiding someone or or instructing or helping someone on a tour? How much of that do you actually use when when it comes to, uh, what Vanessa was talking about? People who might psych themselves out or or get afraid or freak out or something like that?

• 42:38Speaker 03

  Uh, I, a ton.

• 42:41Chuck Nice?

  A ton?

• 42:42Speaker 03

  I think most of what we do is coaching.

• 42:45Chuck Nice?

  Just a ton?

• 42:46Speaker 03

  Bucket load, a large amount. Um, I think motivation and and addressing fear is is is fundamental to what people have to face and, you know, the physical part of it, you can, you can manage. The mental part of it is something that's, it's, you have to kind of coax people into believing in themselves and finding that calm and and translating that to, uh, to success. And, uh, I, I think that it probably represents most of what we do is as guide, as a guide, uh, to get people to their objective and to enjoy where they are. And, you know, not just objective, but process and, you know, the, the whole, the whole

• 43:30Speaker 03

  trip is is kind of more important to me than just the summit. And I, trying to relate that to people is really, really difficult. And when you can get through it and people identify their fear and, um, And their weaknesses and they they overcome that, they're hugely successful.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Doctor, before you go, um, as a physician, and Vanessa has given me the impression that every time she's summited, she's learnt something, she's faced something different. Have you approached it in a similar way? Has high altitude mountaineering taught you any medical lessons? Have you found things that you probably wouldn't have found had you stayed closer to sea level?

• 44:13Speaker 03

  Well, sure. I mean, it's it's like any uh, any experience, the more the more experience you have in in a variety of settings, the more knowledge you gain. Um, you know, try either traveling at a high altitude or dealing with folks who who have illnesses at high altitude, it just it just creates a whole different avenue for for learning. And I mean, I'm always shocked at what I see and hear from people, like all the time. And it's kind of never ending.

• 44:40Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask both of you this. This will be my last question. Uh, okay. So you you you both are extraordinarily passionate about this. It's it's evident. Okay. And you're both proficient. And what I'd like to know is, what can you tell me, from your perspective, why should anybody do this?

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Go ahead, Vanessa.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  This is where you say ladies first, right?

• 45:11Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Why should anybody do this? Um, so I think, uh, well, first of all, I'd never really advocate doing this per se. I I like using mountaineering as a metaphor more than anything else.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  But in terms of taking one more step, but I I do think people should get outside of their comfort zone, um, and have more self belief, knowing that they always have a safety net. Um, the safety net is all the knowledge, skills and experience that they've ever acquired in life, that can actually help them pivot and do something different. Because you can always go back. But what what lies ahead is unknown. So taking that knowledge, skills and experience allows you to pivot, take that, you know, not that that much risk that you think it is, because you can always go back, but trying something different, you never know what you'll discover.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  You're up next, Doc.

• 46:06Chuck Nice?

  Doc?

• 46:08Speaker 03

  That's a hard one to beat.

• 46:09Chuck Nice?

  I know. Doc's like, what she said.

• 46:13Chuck Nice?

  No, go ahead, Doc. Go ahead, go ahead. Why should anyone do this?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Well, I think that if we internalize it and ask ourselves why we do it, this is what I've done for my, almost my entire life. And I'm passionate about it. My life revolves around being in the mountains. And when you come to it as an older adult, or just even as an adult, why? I think people come to it from all different directions. One is a challenge. And I think I see a lot of people who just, they just want to experience something different. That comfort zone that we live in does need to be challenged, I think. And the mountains are definitely one way to challenge it. To step out of your comfort zone into the box that you've never stepped into before.

• 47:03Speaker 03

  It's super valuable as a growing process, as a tool.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Being in places that are just absolutely stunning and locations you'll never go to again, probably. Some of us make our living in those environments and they're super valuable. To me, it's how I live my life and how I'd like others to live their lives too. In touch with their surroundings and engaging.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Doc, thank you.

• 47:32Chuck Nice?

  Very cool.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  Vanessa, I mean, fabulous to have the pair of you on at the same time. Dr. Alarum, thank you so much for your time. Vanessa O'Brien, a superstar of the world's mountains. That's it, Chuck.

• 47:44Chuck Nice?

  Are we out of show?

• 47:45Speaker 00

  We are done, dude.

• 47:47Chuck Nice?

  I believe we have summited.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  We have. The big, that's the easy bit, apparently.

• 47:50Chuck Nice?

  And now we gotta get down. That won't happen on camera. And then what will happen is I'll have a heart attack at the top of this mountain. Okay, everybody else will descend and then they have to leave me up here because you can't take your dad with you.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  He's got such a complex.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  You ain't gonna die there, bro.

• 48:06Chuck Nice?

  All right. Thank you, Doc. Thank you.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  That famous bedside manner just got brought forward.

• 48:11Chuck Nice?

  That's why he's a god. He's encouraging me even now. He's like, you're not gonna die. You're not gonna die up here, bro. You're not gonna die.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Come out to the T-Town so get you up to Grand T-Town, buddy.

• 48:20Chuck Nice?

  All right, you got it.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  All right. Meanwhile, on Magic Mountain. Right.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  If this show has inspired you, I am a happy person because these two people have been awesome. Right, I've been Gary O'Reilly, who are you? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm still Chuck Nice. Yes, he is. Finally on the ground, Chuck Nice. And this has been Playing with Science and we'll catch you very, very soon, I'm sure.