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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Hey, here's a little something different that we normally don't do. We want to share an episode of a podcast called Real Good. It's a show that started last year at the beginning of COVID to highlight nonprofits doing work on the ground to help with the pandemic. But the big message of that season was that most of the problems people are facing in COVID weren't new when it hit. They're intersectional problems concerning race, class, gender, and a lot more. So COVID just exposed what was already there. The second season is out now, and it's broadening out to focus on the people fighting the systemic issues COVID highlighted. You're about to hear an episode of the podcast about housing inequality with the first ever Global Diversity and Inclusion Officer at Habitat for Humanity.
0:45 Speaker 00 If you like what you hear, you can listen and subscribe to Real Good wherever you get your podcasts.
0:59 Speaker 01 This is Real Good by U.S. Bank, a podcast about helpers.
1:06 Speaker 02 Housing is a vaccine. Housing has one of the greatest impacts on health outcomes than any other intersection because we have a safe place, we're sheltered from the storm, right? So in the midst of COVID, the work that we're doing and the need for the work that we're doing has become even more amplified.
1:26 Speaker 01 I'm Faith Staley. This show was born out of the coronavirus crisis. In our efforts to understand where work needed to be done to help communities in need during the pandemic, we learned that the issues they were struggling with didn't crop up during COVID. They're longstanding concerns with roots in racial disparity, socioeconomic opportunity gaps, and so much more. We're here to give you a chance to meet those who are fighting against inequality. They're people who span a wide range of fields and enact very different missions, but one thing remains the same for everyone you're going to meet. They're helpers. They're doing real good.
2:12 Speaker 01 This week, our guest is Natasha Reid Rice, the first ever Global Diversity Equity and Inclusion Officer at Habitat for Humanity. It almost goes without saying, but housing plays an incredibly important role in our lives. Housing is a given for some, but for those experiencing homelessness, or those whose housing takes up the majority of their income, it's an ever-present struggle. These struggles don't affect all of us equally. Housing disparity didn't happen by accident, and it's something we can fix with the help of people like Natasha.
2:54 Speaker 01 Natasha Reid Rice, we just established while we were setting up our mics that we were in the same class in college, and it's only taken us 30 years to sit down and get to know each other.
3:08 Speaker 02 I love it. Yes.
3:10 Speaker 01 I do, too.
3:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
3:12 Speaker 01 Better late than never.
3:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. I'm talking to you in Atlanta, where Habitat for Humanity is based. Are you from Georgia?
3:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm from Atlanta.
3:22 Speaker 01 Me, too.
3:23 Speaker 02 We are so connected.
3:26 Speaker 01 I know. And as my daughter would say in her remote first grade class, the girls have sign language to say "same, same." So I'll be doing the sign language during this interview. And, you know, I've been falling down a delightful rabbit hole, learning about you and watching you speak, and one of the things you speak about is that we are all "what if," right? If we ask ourselves the question, what if we are all more alike than unalike? So I think that's a really nice place to start with our same-sees.
3:56 Speaker 02 I love it.
3:58 Speaker 01 So, so, talk to me about your childhood. What was your family like? What were you like as a little girl?
4:05 Speaker 02 Oh, that's a great question. And especially because I've been telling the story more as it relates to even the work, you know, kind of in this diversity, equity, social justice space. So I am from Atlanta, but we moved when I was nine to Miami. And so that's why the big thing in Atlanta and probably other more provincial spaces is they always say, oh, where'd you go to high school? Because in Atlanta, that places you. Like, it lets people know what side of town you grew up on.
4:29 Speaker 01 How much money you had.
4:31 Speaker 02 Exactly.
4:31 Speaker 01 What color you were.
4:33 Speaker 02 Yep. So I always have to say, I'm from Atlanta, because there are few folks in Atlanta that are actually from Atlanta still, because we're not as provincial as we used to be. But I grew up in Atlanta and Miami. So, and that really feeds into, you know, in Atlanta, in the 70s, I grew up in the early 70s as well. And I was the child of a white woman and a black man, which in the 70s was very rare in Atlanta.
4:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:58 Speaker 02 My mother is a white woman from Minnesota, and she came to Spelman College in 1968 as part of an exchange program. And that's
5:06 Speaker 01 There must have been, I mean, people who may not know should know that Spelman College is a historically black college, right?
5:13 Speaker 02 Yep, absolutely.
5:14 Speaker 01 So she had to be one of so incredibly few white women.
5:18 Speaker 02 Right. And Spelman and her college actually created an exchange program in 1968. So she was one of a few white women that came to Spelman, and Spelman sent few black women to Winona, Minnesota, to go to school there. It's part of this exchange. And so my mother was very bold and courageous in that moment, and defied her parents' demand that she not marry a black man, and married my father. And my parents tell stories, have told me stories of when they, you know, my mother was pregnant with me, they went to the Rialto Theater, which is a famous theater here in Atlanta, to see a movie. At the time, it was a movie theater. And they were held at gunpoint by a white man. They got approved
6:01 Speaker 02 of their union, and his, he pointed the gun at her belly, and I was
6:06 Speaker 01 At you.
6:07 Speaker 02 I was held at gunpoint in utero, because of this issue of race, right? I've often
6:12 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh.
6:13 Speaker 02 told that story. And so, but my mother also, at a certain point, it was such a racialized moment, and I, because of that, became very racially aware at an early age. So, at the age of six, I was, I could tell that people stared at us wherever we went. And so I used to just tell my mom, just tell people you're my babysitter. Maybe they'll stop looking at us so much, you know, kind of thing. So my mom and father, my mother and father eventually divorced and my mother kind of after all of that left and I did not see her again. I think the race thing was too much to bear in addition to probably some other things. And so I often say, what happened to me on a micro level happens to us on a macro level every day.
6:54 Speaker 02 So as a result, I was raised by my father, who I adore and we're the closest of friends as well as daughter and father. But my mother, because of this, the issue of race and how difficult it can be to navigate, just left. And so we've done that in a macro level as well. Like, we kind of give up on the conversation because we're so tired of talking about it. But when we really dig into it, the relationships we can develop and the wonderful synergies that emerge are absolutely beautiful. So that inspires my work today.
7:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's really interesting to hear you say the words, we get so tired of talking about it. Because I had a conversation with Greg Cunningham, who is, who's at US Bank. And he talks about part of the pain of having these conversations around race for people of color is getting tired. It's the exhaustion, whereas for a whole bunch of, and I try to give, I try to stay away from this word woke. But for a whole bunch of white people whose, whose eyes have been opened, maybe, or consciousness raised, it's not tiring. They're, you know, well-meaning white people are like, wait, what?
8:14 Speaker 01 Tell us more. And I'm, I'm learning that a whole bunch of people of color are like, really? Like, we gotta go, all right, let's start this again, right?
8:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it's interesting because I'm, I'm starting to hear it a little bit more because I'm in very, in several interracial situations these days, right? So I was, in addition to my work in Habitat, I was also associate pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church for 11 years, right? So predominantly black context. Well, now I'm in a predominantly white context as a minister for Public Life at All Saints. So it's, it's a very interesting kind of. Important to have happened in this year is also very telling. But I'm having that conversation, not only at All Saints, but I mean, in other communities, where it's like, I don't, what do we do to prevent the fatigue from taking hold, right?
9:06 Speaker 01 Especially when this conversation, when these conversations are only just really starting in earnest, right?
9:11 Speaker 02 Exactly. Right. What we just experienced with the horrible murder of George Floyd was just a few months ago. So, and the other thing I often say is it's a luxury to get fatigued.
9:22 Speaker 01 You know, before we talk about your role as, as the first ever diversity inclusion and inclusion officer at Habitat for Humanity International, it's a long title. Congrats.
9:33 Speaker 02 Long title.
9:34 Speaker 01 You know, I, I just, you've, you've mentioned some of the things that Habitat for Humanity is doing. I think everybody's heard of it. Is it, how, how would you describe briefly the agenda of Habitat for Humanity? I know it was started in the seventies. I know it's, it's building and it's present in all 50 states and in 70 countries, I think I, I saw on the website. And, and is it, is it much more than the amazing task of giving people homes and helping them participate in the creation of their homes?
10:07 Speaker 02 Absolutely, much more than that.
10:09 Speaker 01 Tell us.
10:10 Speaker 02 Yeah. So first of all, great research.
10:12 Speaker 01 Thanks. Well, you know, we're scrappy. We, you and I.
10:17 Speaker 02 Get it done. Know who you're talking to, right? So, no, great research. And it is, for the, the most part, focused on, on providing opportunities for homeownership, but we do not give homes away. I think that's a myth that a lot of folks have about Habitat, right? So we sell homes and then we finance, we help provide financing for families to have a, have an affordable mortgage to.
10:42 Speaker 01 Is it a no interest loan?
10:44 Speaker 02 Yes. In most cases, it is a most interest loan. Absolutely. So what we.
10:48 Speaker 01 And that's important because.
10:49 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
10:50 Speaker 01 Because people are, they're not being given their home. I've helped build this home and I'm paying for this home.
10:57 Speaker 02 That's right. Absolutely. And we often, we kind of shorthand it by saying we're a hand up, not a hand out. Right? So, but we were birthed in, when you speak about kind of our genesis of Habitat, we were birthed in Americas, Georgia, South Georgia. In the late 1960s, Millard Fuller was influenced in the 60s, not even just the late 1960s, was influenced by a man named Clarence Jordan at the Coenania Farm, which was the first interracial communal farm in the United States. Americas, Georgia was a hotbed of division, especially racial division, very segregated, and it was so controversial that Dr. King and his team refused to go. Interesting, right?
11:41 Speaker 01 My goodness, yeah.
11:42 Speaker 02 You hear Andy Young talks about that even to this day. "Oh, we wouldn't even go to Americas," he says, right? Because it was just too, it was too hot. It was too much going on. So, in the midst of all of that, Millard Fuller and others at the time with him envisioned Habitat for Humanity. What was great is that on that interracial farm, they ate together, black and white farmers, they worked together, and Clarence Jordan insisted that they were paid the same. So, there's that focus on diversity, black and white, there's that focus on inclusion.
12:10 Speaker 01 And equity!
12:11 Speaker 02 And there's a focus on equity, right? So, we were birthed out of that, and really focusing on how to provide homeownership opportunities to families who otherwise would be denied that opportunity. So, clearly, kind of what we're talking about today when we talk about homeownership and the development of wealth and equity, right, in that focus on how do we continue to live out that history today. That's our kind of historical imperative. We're also a Christian organization, so we've got the theological component, and our mission is putting God's love into action. Together, we can build hopes and hope and communities, and really transform the way in which we do our work. So-
12:52 Speaker 01 And to be clear, you're a Christian organization that helps and builds with everyone.
12:58 Speaker 02 Everyone.
12:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
13:00 Speaker 02 That's right.
13:01 Speaker 01 Like that Jesus guy you mentioned at the beginning.
13:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, that Jesus guy.
13:04 Speaker 01 I've heard of him. I have to tell you, you're not the first person to reference Andy Young, who was, when I was growing up in Atlanta, our mayor. And something I really love about the interviews I get to do for this podcast are they, they are an implicit lesson. And in 20th century and early 21st century African American history in our country. The players you mentioned, the civil rights. Anyway, thank you for continuing my education. At Habitat for Humanity, you joined as Associate General Counsel, which sounds very lawyer-y to me, right? It's quote unquote, "You initiated and managed financing programs and strategies to generate sources of capital
13:50 Speaker 01 that enabled Habitat affiliates to provide decent, affordable housing to families throughout the country." How is what you do now as the first ever Diversity and Inclusion Officer different? Or what more do you do?
14:06 Speaker 02 So while even being in that role, because as I mentioned, kind of my history trek to that role, kind of that focus on civil rights, the focus on social justice, the things that I do even outside of Habitat, brought to my lawyer role that hat of really looking at issues of equity and believe that through the work we've done at Habitat, we've been able to further that. So now in my role with the long title, I build upon it and able to now step back and have a much more strategic perspective. You know, that role as an Associate General Counsel was a very transactional role, like, and important so. Like, I led our new markets tax credit program,
14:51 Speaker 02 where we were fortunate enough to manage over $211 million in tax credit allocation throughout the history of our program to provide additional financing options for our affiliates throughout the United States. But now in this role, I can kind of step back and, one, it's different because now this role is global. The work I did as an attorney at Habitat was very much focused on the United States. This role will be global. We'll look at the overall strategic framework that we, in which we operationalize diversity, equity, and inclusion, and we'll touch all facets of our organization. So it's a much broader role in that way.
15:28 Speaker 01 So Habitat for Humanity is worldwide. You're talking about global. I'm really curious, what is, what are the challenges in diversity and inclusion in places like Asia and in places like Africa? I mean, it's a naive question, but we think Africa and we're like, well, minus South Africa, hey, is everybody black there? Or hey, in Asia, does, is everybody, does everyone consider himself or herself Asian?
15:54 Speaker 02 Right. No, that's a great question. So a great challenge that I have before me, and I continue to remind people, I can't do this by myself. You know, we've got a partner, as we really are partnering in our organization, is that global, I mean, diversity, equity, and inclusion is context-based. It's contextual, right? So what we focus on as a strategic priority of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the United States, in Georgia, in Ohio, I just got off a call with our Ohio affiliates, may be different than obviously how we focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion in Asia. I just had a call with our Asia-Pacific team
16:34 Speaker 02 last night. Their priorities in the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion, that we're looking at issues of gender, opportunities for women to secure title in Asia. We're looking at issues of religion. What religious groups have been ostracized and denied opportunity in this housing space, right? So just like you said, we're a Christian organization, but we are explicit about providing housing opportunities to people who, regardless of what they choose as their faith or non-faith tradition, right? In the Latin American office, it's the same thing. They were looking at priorities, also what's included in the issue of diversity in both Asia and Latin America, people with disabilities. That's a very
17:16 Speaker 02 component of what the D and I strategy will look like there. And yes, of course, on the continent of Africa. It's very diverse in terms of race, in terms of issues of gender, issues of other aspects of equity, LGBTQIA issues are very different in other contexts. So how are we including all of that? I'm in the early stages.
17:39 Speaker 01 She's got a big job.
17:41 Speaker 02 It's a big role, right? So but the first but what I've done is kind of said, first of all, you know, everyone uses that analogy of boiling the ocean. Like, I can't boil the ocean. But what I can do is identify the components that we can do. So we're going to begin. And and I'm just kicking. I'm literally a month into this role, by the way. So I'm really brand spanking new in this role. But we're going to be bringing in an outside consultant to help us with an organization wide assessment that will inform our global strategic framework. What's also great is that many aspects of our global organization have been doing work that touches aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So part of my job is also
18:23 Speaker 02 connecting dots and finding synergies and tapping into expertise that we already have to expand upon it to amplify it to empower it to do even more. So you asked about faith earlier. I'm talking to faith now. I'm kicking in with faith as I go into this role.
18:40 Speaker 01 We're swimming in it.
18:41 Speaker 02 I'm swimming in it.
18:44 Speaker 01 You know, I think most of us have heard the term housing insecurity. But I'd like to know from you, what what does that mean? And how many people are dealing with that?
18:58 Speaker 02 So it means a lot of different things, right? When we talk about instability, housing insecurity, there's an ecosystem of housing, there's a spectrum of housing, there are, you know, folks who have no access to housing or shelter. There are those who are hit with disasters and natural disasters that render them homeless. There are, you know, homelessness is its own area of.
19:23 Speaker 02 Of of solution finding of expert and expert driven strategies. We are in a different side of that spectrum, although we advocate for the full spectrum through our cost of home campaign. And in our cost of home campaign, we're very explicit about putting our stake in the ground. One in six people throughout this world are, we don't use the term housing insecure, but are in need of decent affordable housing. Within that number in the United States, we realize that close to between 18 and 19 million people are paying more than half or more of their income for housing. And that's just for an affordable housing option. Right? So our goal for our
20:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not like they have a marble bidet from Italy that they're paying for.
20:12 Speaker 02 That's right. Right. We're just, we're, we're trying to get folks into, you know,
20:17 Speaker 01 Somewhere safe and yeah.
20:18 Speaker 02 Affordable housing. Absolutely. And so our cost, yeah, I was just gonna say our, our national advocacy campaign is, it's called the cost of home campaign. And in it, our vision is to ensure and create policies that allow 10 million people to have the opportunity to afford housing, to afford shelter, to afford a place to call home.
20:42 Speaker 01 That word shelter, I think, is so evocative. Right? Because we, we think of it in actual, physical place to give us shelter from the elements. But it's also, shelter is a feeling. Right? It's a feeling of, of safety.
20:55 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
20:56 Speaker 01 And self possession in a way. Right? Or, or being cared for.
21:01 Speaker 01 Does housing insecurity affect women and minorities differently?
21:07 Speaker 02 And when you look historically, I mean, and again, that's a global, if you ask that question on a global spectrum, yes, because in some countries, women aren't even allowed to own title to land. Right, people of of color and certain
21:23 Speaker 02 racial identifications or ethnic identifications or religious identifications are barred from access to even being able to own it. And when you look at that in our country, that is true as well. You know, in the 1930s and 40s, when the Federal Housing Administration began insuring mortgages, they did so with the requirement that those homes and that title could not pass to a person of color or a person of an African American or black homeowners.
21:51 Speaker 01 And I don't know the dates, but I'm I'm sure there was a time in the not so distant past that women couldn't buy their own homes, right?
22:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, depends on where and how that was legislated. But because women couldn't even get the credit necessarily without a husband, right? They couldn't have a bank account without a husband. So you definitely have seen how it can play its way out, both gender and with respect to racial disparities as well.
22:18 Speaker 01 Most of us in homes, you know, we just can't imagine being without shelter, just what that would physically feel like, but also what that would emotionally feel like. And we were talking to Greg Cunningham from US Bank, and and he said that housing is health and housing is wealth, right? Housing has so many ripple effects. Can you speak to that?
22:46 Speaker 02 Oh, absolutely. You mentioned Greg Cunningham, and I mentioned our new markets tax credit program earlier. I have got to say that US Bank has been our primary partner in the new market space. So we've been partnering with US Bank and our new markets program since oh seven. And so I just have to make sure to do that shout out for US Bank and the CDC, the Community Development Bank in the St. Louis office. They live and and really believe in this this work because of the partnership that we've been able to witness and participate in with them has been truly a blessing. So I'm grateful for that. Housing has so many ripple effects in so many different ways. Think of what home means. Like it's one thing to talk about it as housing and housing stock.
23:30 Speaker 02 But when you think of what home means, all the things that home provides, shelter, it provides safety in the midst of a storm, literally and figuratively, right? Home is a place where you, your kids can come home every night and do their homework. They don't have to sit in someone's garage. They don't have to live on someone else's couch. When you start to hear the stories that our, our families that we have been honored to partner with and, and the, and helping them to, um, they're on their journey to homeownership, it's amazing, like their families, um, who didn't have an option but to live in the, the garage of a family member. They turned that garage into a, a place for homework in the day and a place to sleep at night. Right?
24:15 Speaker 02 How do we, how do we make sure that we are able to, um, provide that home in that cascading of all of the benefits of home to families across the country is the important work that I believe all of our affiliates and our national organizations outside of the U S even are involved in trying to figure out and strategize.
24:36 Speaker 01 Because it's part, it's part of a mindset, especially for, for people of color who have, who have been denied the opportunity to have a home and, and, and women and disabled people, um, right? Because, because when you, when you, it, it gives you a sense of belonging to a community and that gives you a feeling of self-worth.
24:56 Speaker 02 Absolutely. And then you look at the intersections of housing. How does that play itself out in educational outcomes? When a child has a safe place to call home, when a child doesn't have to live in a, um, a, a place where there, there may not be adequate ventilation, there may not, you know, and all of those-
25:14 Speaker 01 Well, it's a health thing, right? I mean, let's talk about, let's talk about COVID right now. How, you know, we, we learned, um, last season, we talked about how the COVID outbreak is, is, you know, making a difference, um, to the focus of the helpers we talked to. You know, as you well know, black and brown men and women have been affected to a, a much more severe degree than others. How has COVID changed the work you do at Habitat for Humanity?
25:47 Speaker 02 So let me lead by saying, one of our, and we partner with, with Dr. Megan Sandell in many spaces, and she's part of our cabinet for our Cost of Home campaign. But one of the things she says often that ties directly to what you just asked is that housing is a vaccine. Housing has one of the greatest impacts on health outcomes than any other intersection with our, our health, our health trajectory, right in life, because we have a safe place, we're sheltered from the storm, we, we can, you know, our children can grow up with, with, and looking at, at the rates of asthma and linking that to the type of environment someone grows up in. I mean, there are so many connections between that, right? So in the midst of COVID, the work that we're doing and the need for the work
26:32 Speaker 02 that we're doing has become even more amplified. And so we have affiliates that are pivoting and, and really trying to respond to the COVID pandemic in many different ways. Supporting families that we've already partnered with, making sure that they have some relief of their mortgage payments in the midst of this, right? Because that's a big issue with those families who are losing their jobs and how are they then going to pay those mortgages that we talked about? So they're providing mortgage relief, they're continuing to work with them and, and buttress the learnings from their financial literacy component of their process of even getting to homeownership. So we are very aware in our communities,
27:15 Speaker 02 and then there are many affiliates that are also very involved in partnering with other partners in the community to support those residents who are most at risk and most vulnerable at this time.
27:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, it's more urgent than ever, this US Census Household Pulse survey from October, which, this is a US Census survey that actually asks about people's feelings. It noted that 41% of black renters in the US right now feel like there's a likelihood they'll be evicted in the next two months. And, and 41%, I can't even imagine.
27:57 Speaker 01 Having that feeling ever, but in a pandemic, to be worried about where you're going to lay your head and where your kids are going to be able to wash their hands, right? Or like you said, do their homework or go to sleep.
28:11 Speaker 02 Mm hmm, absolutely.
28:13 Speaker 01 What do we, what do we do to ease those feelings even right now?
28:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I think so organizationally, one of the ways that we are responding is through the shifting of focus of our, of our advocacy campaign. So we are working very closely with other organizations to, to advocate for some relief from the federal government. We were very involved in the PPP conversations, realizing and making sure to elevate the needs of many of our homeowners and residents that we serve.
28:50 Speaker 02 So we've been looking at it from an organizational standpoint because that's one of the best ways we leverage our brand in this space. We've also been very involved in external outreach and awareness efforts. We've launched a plus you thought leadership series to educate audiences about the significance and the pressing issues that families are dealing with all over the country as a result of COVID-19, especially our low income families. The work around the area of eviction, I think, has been documented in such a comprehensive way by people like Matthew Desmond, the Pulitzer Prize winning of the, winning author of the book Evicted, and he is also a part of our cabinet with our Cost of Home campaign.
29:34 Speaker 02 One of the things that, that he is, he has also been saying quite a bit is the importance of the linkage between housing and criminal justice and the fact that one of his famous quotes, he says, "In this country, poor black men are locked up and poor black women are locked out." And how in that context are we really trying to answer the, you know, the call of those who are in great need during this moment?
30:00 Speaker 01 It's astonishing to hear you lay it out for us, how housing is like the nexus of everything, right?
30:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:09 Speaker 01 Health, wealth, criminal justice.
30:13 Speaker 02 From the seat that I sit in, I say yes to that. And I'm sure, and that's why it's important to have many folks around the table so that we can all find the synergies and make sure that we're helping those who are most in need.
30:25 Speaker 01 Do you get emotional about what you do?
30:28 Speaker 02 I do, yeah. Yeah, and oftentimes it's channeled into passion to do more, that kind of emotion.
30:35 Speaker 01 Have you, I mean, you're, you know, running, you're running global, a global effort from your home on Zoom mostly.
30:47 Speaker 01 But when you've been able to be with people in person, have you had a moment where you've shed a tear? Can you, can you tell us about any, you know, specific experience?
30:59 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I think one of the most recent ones was in February, we had our cost of home campaign rally on the lawn in front of the US Capitol. And one of our homeowners, Juanita, from the Twin Cities area, came and spoke. And she and her family moved into a Habitat home in the mid 90s. And now she's one of the chief advocates for the great work that Habitat does. To hear her tell that story, how once she got a home, it stabilized and changed her life with her husband and their children. And now their children are grown and they're essential workers. They're doing research for hospital in Minnesota. They're doing environmental work for a hospital in Minnesota.
31:43 Speaker 02 She and her husband remain completely active and engaged. And when you hear those types of stories, you're like, wow, this work that we're doing makes a huge difference. And I'm just grateful and honored to be a part of it.
31:55 Speaker 01 And you shared a story at a talk you gave about a Women Helping Women Build Day?
32:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Oh, about our, and what that was like on that build site? And we were trying to, yeah, that was crazy.
32:06 Speaker 01 So it was a whole bunch of women getting together to build a home for a single mom, right?
32:10 Speaker 02 That's right. That's right. A single mom with two kids. And it is, those, those women builds are great. And they bring together women from various aspects, some in the C-suite of their corporations, some running nonprofits. And then they give us a something as simple as a caulking gun and say, just caulk the straight line. And I'm thinking, I can do this until I try to do it and I'm all out of whack. But it's so great because in that moment, no one cares about their hair. They don't care about their nails. They care about doing this job and getting this home built. And it's such a wonderful way to break down barriers as a figurative conversation about how really it takes us all. And if we can get past some of those social constructs and things that divide us, what a rich conversation and what great work we can do together.
32:56 Speaker 01 You know, your bio says that you provide a voice to the voiceless. And, and I just want to thank you for, for sharing your voice with us today.
33:05 Speaker 02 Thank you. Thank you for having me. And such a great opportunity to connect with you. I hope we stay connected.
33:10 Speaker 01 Me too, because we should have 30 years ago, right?
33:13 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly.
33:15 Speaker 01 Thank you, Natasha Reid Rice.
33:17 Speaker 02 Thank you.
33:21 Speaker 01 Banking and housing go hand in hand. Most people purchasing property need the help of a financial institution to become homeowners. Banks are an important part of the push for housing equity and affordable housing. We spoke with Vihar Sheth and returning favorite Reva Daminsky about the role US Bank plays in helping those in need get housing and the responsibility they have to their communities to do so.
33:51 Speaker 01 Reva, how are you?
33:53 Speaker 03 I'm well, Faith. How are you? It's so good to hear your voice.
33:57 Speaker 01 It's so good to hear your voice, too. And even though we've talked probably merely of like, only a few months ago, we're talking in the time of a pandemic. So what is time? Like, like, how, how's it going? Do you still have the same family? Same job? Everything okay?
34:16 Speaker 03 Well, you know, same job, same family, same family. And the world around us.
34:24 Speaker 03 I mean, it's hard to put into words what it looks like. The pandemic is still raging on. We have not solved issues of racial justice and social justice. So still a lot of work to be done there. We had an election.
34:38 Speaker 01 You sure did.
34:40 Speaker 03 So I feel like in the external world, a lot has stayed the same. Some has been magnified. Some things have changed. But at US Bank, in the role that I'm in, our commitment to continue to bring the full bank to close racial wealth gaps and address issues of racial injustice and inequality remains the same. In fact, I would say, Faith, that commitment has intensified across the enterprise.
35:05 Speaker 01 Okay, so one of the things I really love about this podcast that we're doing is it's not, it's not meant, its mandate is not to be a commercial.
35:16 Speaker 03 Right.
35:16 Speaker 01 But, and nevertheless, I want to say this and let you tell me about it. I saw on Twitter that US Bank, no, nobody told me to say this, let me be clear, US Bank was named one of 2020's World's Most Ethical Companies?
35:32 Speaker 03 That's right.
35:33 Speaker 01 That's, that's kind of amazing.
35:35 Speaker 03 It's amazing. And I believe it's the fifth year in a row
35:40 Speaker 01 Oh.
35:40 Speaker 03 that we've received that honor. And by the way, we're the only large bank to be on that list. And it's something, Faith, that we are so incredibly proud of because being an ethical company right now, being an ethical human being right now, just feels so incredibly relevant and important.
36:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. I actually read that headline twice because I was like, does it say ethical banks? And I was like, no, companies. Like, like, that's, that's a big deal. I hope, I hope you got a trophy. I hope you got to dress up and give a speech. I mean, you are the chief social responsibility officer. So, mazel.
36:19 Speaker 03 Well, there was, there was no gown. There was no event this year, as you can imagine. But it is something, seriously, I am so proud of. Like, I am proud to work for a company and a bank that is considered one of the most ethical companies in the world. And by the way, like, I actually feel that and live it every day. It's something I think about in my decision making. Like, am I doing the right thing? Do we earn that? Recognition every single day. You know, there's big moments with galas and ball gowns and speeches, but the real work happens in the little moments where people decide, how do I want to do what I'm doing? How do I want to do the right thing? Who am I serving?
37:01 Speaker 03 How do I make sure that I'm making the right decision for the people and for the planet? So I would tell you that, you know, that honor is fantastic, but we have to earn it every single day in the decisions that we make.
37:14 Speaker 01 So Vihar, you've been very patient. And I'm going to take a cue from Reba and just start by asking you, how are you doing?
37:26 Speaker 04 You know, I, I am doing pretty well. COVID good, as a friend of mine.
37:31 Speaker 01 Oh, I like that.
37:32 Speaker 04 Describes it, which is, it's, you know, grading on a curve.
37:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:35 Speaker 04 But, you know, all things considered with what's going on in the world, myself and my family, we're doing great.
37:41 Speaker 01 Can you please, let's back up a step and let you lay your full name and job title on us.
37:46 Speaker 04 Sure. I am Vihar Sheff, and I am the Director of Business Development for our Equity Platform in our Affordable Housing Group at the Community Development Corporation, which is a division of US Bank.
37:59 Speaker 01 And how long have you been there?
38:02 Speaker 04 I have been at the CDC and at the bank 16 years.
38:05 Speaker 01 Whoa, that is a long time. What has, what has kept you there for a decade, over a decade and a half?
38:11 Speaker 04 You know, it's this great merger of doing well and doing good. I get to work in communities, financing affordable housing and watching people move into clean and safe homes. I get to solve problems, get to work with phenomenal people and, you know, have the support of this tremendous organization. As we've noted, you know, it's been on the most ethical companies list. It, it's been a stalwart through thick and thin over these last 16 years that I've been there.
38:40 Speaker 01 When you say you have, you get to see people move into homes, is that something that was literally true before the pandemic?
38:48 Speaker 04 Yeah, it was literally true. So you know, I manage our originations team. So it's basically our sales function. So we're out in our communities across the country. You know, I don't miss all the travel. I will put it, put that out there, but we were on the ground, visiting our developers, looking at real estate, touring buildings, looking at pieces of ground, and then going back a year or two later and watching families actually, you know, take the keys.
39:11 Speaker 01 That's what originations means?
39:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, so we secure our investment opportunities. So we're working with developers who are building affordable housing. And we try to become their financial partners on both the debt and equity side of these transactions, and sign them up to become partners of the bank. And then we have a whole host of other folks that help get us to the finish line and manage those relationships.
39:32 Speaker 01 Can you tell me, just paint a picture of, of a family you've seen get keys and, and what that's like?
39:40 Speaker 04 Well, you know, I'll tell you, I'm going to answer a little bit differently. I think the most impactful projects to me have actually been the ones that we do that are permanent supportive housing. So it's watching formerly homeless folks who often suffer from either chemical addictions and/or mental health problems find a permanent home that, you know, that has a lock on their door and they have service providers to take care of them. And these are folks that have burned every bridge in their life and often find themselves sleeping on the street. And watching those, that, that demographic move into a building is, I think, some of the most transformative stuff we do.
40:17 Speaker 01 So you called that permanent supportive housing?
40:20 Speaker 04 Yeah.
40:20 Speaker 01 Is that an industry term? That's
40:22 Speaker 04 It is an industry term, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a subset of housing within the affordable housing space and just in community development, where you're really wrapping around services, that permanent support for the folks who need it, where if they lack it, other things start to kind of fall apart for them.
40:38 Speaker 01 Can you tell us, and, and please, Ray, but don't stand on ceremony, either one of you can, can jump in. Can you tell us a little bit about the state of housing security? Which, which kind of, you know, involves the question, what does housing insecurity mean?
40:55 Speaker 04 Yeah, you know, I mean, I can start, you know, I mean, there's a back of the envelope, which is that you shouldn't have to spend more than 30% of your income to acquire housing for you and your family. And unfortunately, there are a tremendous number, millions of families that are rent burdened throughout this country. And housing insecurity is the fact that you're spending a disproportionate amount of income to get housing, that housing may not be safe and secure, and that, you know, with instability in income, you can very quickly lose that housing. And with where the market has gone, with the price of for sale homes, and with the construction of very high end units, and, you know, Faith,
41:38 Speaker 04 you said you live in New York City, so you know what it means to live in an expensive real estate market. It's preposterous. But I'm here in St. Louis, and it's the same thing, and I'm sure in the Twin Cities where Reba is, it's very similar. There's just not enough product that aligns with the incomes of most of the folks in this country. And that's really the tragedy.
41:58 Speaker 03 And I'll just add a couple, Faith and Bihar, of stats around that. So according to the National Low Income Housing Coalition, there's a shortage of over 7 million affordable housing units for low income families. And it's not just an issue of homeownership, it's also a rental issue. So according to the Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies, between 2011 and 2017, there was a reduction in over 3 million rental units at $600 per month or lower, which, as you do the math of what Bihar shared about the percentage of your income that should go to housing, for many families in this country, $600,
42:38 Speaker 03 $700 is the amount of rent that they can and should pay for safe and affordable housing. So these gaps. have continued to grow and the housing instability as a result continues to grow as well.
42:54 Speaker 01 And you said a 7 million, a gap of 7 million, right? That's units. That doesn't even count how many family members.
43:02 Speaker 04 Yeah, that's households.
43:03 Speaker 01 Yes. You know, we talked with Natasha Reid Rice, who is the first Global Diversity Equity and Inclusion Officer at Habitat for Humanity. And the point that she kept making, even just implicitly, was that housing is everything, right? Like, if you don't have a home and a sense of security, you don't have, certainly don't have wealth, the ability to hang on to it, right? If you're paying more than 30% of your income towards rent, you can't have health, right? You can't, I mean, it like all starts with housing.
43:45 Speaker 04 It absolutely does. I mean, it is the foundation and stability. And I think, you know, not to beat a dead horse, but you're talking about stagnant wages, extreme inequality growth, and the reduction of the number of units while there are population growth in this country. So there's a lot of stress in the system. We've seen it through the pandemic. You know, we're in the middle of a period where we have some support from the government, but it's running out. We have eviction moratoriums. And a lot of the folks who live in the projects that we finance are the retail workers, are the restaurant workers, who are, you know, come January 1st, going to be in a different situation if the government doesn't act to support them until we're through, you know, this dark period.
44:26 Speaker 01 And a lot of them are the
44:27 Speaker 04 It's scary.
44:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, and a lot of them have been the essential workers, keeping our economies going, making sure we can pay our rent, right?
44:34 Speaker 04 Absolutely right. Absolutely right.
44:36 Speaker 03 And a disproportionate number of them are people of color, right? And as you talk about the importance, Faith, of a home. And saying it is everything, a home is also a source of generational wealth. And if you think about the disparities in homeownership between the white population and communities of color, for many white families and more affluent families, part of the way that they pass on wealth to their children is through their home, is through property. And for many communities of color, that isn't an option. So, you know, there's so many nuances to these housing issues that reflect, I think,
45:18 Speaker 03 the broader gaps we're seeing in our society and the disproportionate impact of so many things on communities of color.
45:25 Speaker 01 You've, you've touched on how kind of local the, the needs are, right? So housing is intersectional, but also specific, right? It, it, the needs change from city to city. So how does US Bank take into consideration those, you know, site-specific needs?
45:48 Speaker 04 So, yes, I mean, you're pointing, point is spot on. It's not even city to city. I mean, it's neighborhood to neighborhood.
45:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's right.
45:54 Speaker 04 So it's really kind of a block-to-block effort. Now, you know, the program that we work in with the Affordable Housing, the tax credit on the low-income side, you know, those are, those are administered by states and states are trying to respond to the needs of these communities and give the tax credits out to developers who have submitted plans that seem to respond to the neighborhoods that they're in. And, you know, it's, it's the number one program to maintain and finance new affordable housing throughout the country. The struggle really is, is combining that and scaling up with other things so that, you know, to Rabe's point, we're providing a full neighborhood for folks and not just the housing, but it's still a food desert, or just jobs, but there's no housing, and trying to combine.
46:37 Speaker 04 All those things together and it really does require people to be on the ground and understand what a community needs, what it's lacking, what its history is to to structure investments in a proper way so that those communities can thrive.
46:54 Speaker 01 A food desert, does that, does that, it sounds like it means you can't get food. There's not a local market. Is that what that means? Or is it there's not fresh produce?
47:02 Speaker 04 It's more the latter in that there's generally calories available.
47:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:07 Speaker 04 They're often not healthy. And so it's really about fresh food, healthy food, organic food, those types of things. So, you know, there are a lot of groups that track where the nearest produce is, where the nearest organic grocery store is, and what a low-income family has to do to get to those things, which can be take multiple buses. And, you know, our food is not subsidized in the way where, you know, Happy Meal costs the same as much as as an organic apple. And so if you don't have a lot of money, are you going to spend your dollar fifty on a, you know, six hundred calorie meal of burger and fries? Or a fifty calorie organic apple? And how that whole system works. And so getting the right food close to the people who don't have access to it, whereas, you know, the
47:52 Speaker 04 three of us have the luxury of of markets all around us and the liquidity to pay for that kind of stuff.
48:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, it's interesting. I feel like if, I mean, I live smack dab in the middle of a city and and walk through it. We don't have a car. And so I know how, like you said, Vihar, block to block, you can kind of tell the the economic level of that of that community, right? And and it's, there's so much, so many Americans who live in the suburbs and and probably have a faint notion that there are people who don't have as much as they have, right? But they don't drive through that. They don't live it and they don't walk through it. And do you think part, I mean, y'all are on the ground doing, doing the
48:43 Speaker 01 work of helping to grow communities. But do you think part of the challenge is a kind of lack of awareness?
48:51 Speaker 04 I would absolutely agree with that, but I'd also make sure to clarify that, you know, the urban core in cities is where there's concentration, but there are issues with how divided and separated we are everywhere. I mean, there are suburbs that are falling apart. There are tremendous amounts of rural communities that don't have safe, affordable housing or access to food, even in the places where the food is grown, ironically. And so, you know, all these issues are the same and then they're different. And so we really need to examine these communities. And we build farmworker housing in the middle of California for the people who pick all of our produce. And then we'll build high rises in the middle of, you know, urban cores for the people who work in our restaurant and retail. And while they're different folks, their needs often are the same and they're
49:36 Speaker 04 suffering from kind of the same issues in terms of the lack of support when it comes to housing and other things.
49:42 Speaker 03 You know, I will jump in on the question, Faith, that you asked about, you know, awareness. I would just say, I do think there is generally a lack of awareness or even a lack of desire to kind of look at these issues. If it's not in my backyard, it doesn't affect me and my children. No, I don't want to see it. And these are, you know, these are difficult issues to talk about. They're difficult issues to get your head around. You know, I threw out some data earlier, you know, seven million unit shortage, but like, what does that actually mean? And what's the story behind the family that can't find affordable housing? And so to me, there's always this interesting journey we're all on, kind of learn more and be more
50:23 Speaker 03 empathetic about not just the data, but the real people behind these stories. Because I would argue, it may not be you or your kids, but it could be. Because some of the stories of both experiencing housing insecurity or homelessness would amaze you with where people have been and where they are in the circumstances, including mental health issues that put them in that place. So I think there is an element of kind of empathy and awareness that we need to grow in this country so that we can really try to solve some of these issues collaboratively. We were, we were building a new branch in a market. And I remember our corporate real estate you said, "The new branch is going to be six blocks away from the existing branch."
51:06 Speaker 03 And I went, "Oh, six blocks away, it must be the exact same community." And my community affairs team came back to me and they said, "Let us tell you the difference in six blocks." And it was really a gentrified community versus a highly immigrant community. And they said, "If we put a branch six blocks away, it's like putting the branch in a different planet." So I think we're all on our journey to kind of understand these issues. And I think awareness and empathy are the key to making forward progress.
51:36 Speaker 01 It's been a privilege to talk to you both. Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity.
51:42 Speaker 03 Thanks so much.
51:47 Speaker 01 Thanks so much for listening to Real Good by U.S. Bank. If you like what you heard, listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.
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