Food, Science, and Culture, with Anthony Bourdain

Our Season 10 Premiere features Neil deGrasse Tyson’s interview with Anthony Bourdain, recorded before his death in 2018. With co-host Sasheer Zamata, food scientist Guy Crosby, Natalia Reagan, hot sauce guru Noah Chaimberg, and “SciBabe” Yvette d'Entremont. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/food-science-and-culture-with-anthony-bourdain/ Photo Credit: Brandon Royal

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hello StarTalk family. The episode you're about to watch was recorded shortly before the tragic passing of celebrated writer and TV host Anthony Bourdain. We're thankful for the opportunity to share Anthony's unique perspective in the universe on food, culture, and life. On behalf of all of us at StarTalk, thanks for watching. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to the Hall of the Universe.

• 0:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and tonight we're discussing the science of food. And we're featuring my interview with chef, writer, and TV host Anthony Bourdain. So let's do this. So, meet my comedic co-host for this evening, Sasheer Zamata. Sasheer, excellent. You're tweeting at thesheertruth. Yes, I tell the truth. Brilliant Twitter handle, love it. And I've got with us a real live food scientist, Guy Crosby. Guy, welcome to StarTalk.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Thank you Neil, thank you.

• 1:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're also known as The Cooking Science Guy. You're adjunct professor of nutrition at the Harvard University School of Public Health.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's up in Boston, sure. And former science editor for America's Test Kitchen.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very good, because we're featuring my interview with chef and renowned foodie Anthony Bourdain. And you know, he's host of CNN's Parts Unknown, and what they do is they send him to all corners of the earth, and he explores food in the context of their culture. Brilliant concept, which he executes beautifully.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I wanted to know, did he have any early experiences with math or science that might sort of help to guide him or tune him on this path? So let's check it out.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Algebra strangely enough was the best I ever did at any math subject. I could somehow picture that, but um, uh, science, you know, I like dissecting frogs. I mean, who doesn't?

• 2:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 2:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It served me well later as a chef.

• 2:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know all the leg muscles are.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  I do.

• 2:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Little did your biology teacher know that this was for later eating.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, tell me how you came to think about food and culture. Because the fact that the very phrase, "It's a matter of taste," means I might like something that you don't and vice versa. So, what does it even mean for you to have a show? To talk about what's good and what isn't?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Well, it is completely subjective. I mean, they say that all food tastes are acquired or learned. That they are not, I mean, babies will eat rotten food if their mothers say this is good. I think bitter, babies, at least in this country, react to negatively.

• 3:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hence, no vegetables.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I never evaluate food on the show anymore. I don't use adjectives anymore. I never say, "I have no toast," you know, "background notes of minerality." Does this help anyone in any way? I say, "Wow, this is really good," or, and then say, "Sure about that." But it's entirely subjective. I know that some people have a genetic inability to taste certain flavors or experience them differently. I have a chef friend who did a lot of experiments with that. One out of a small group of people will not detect certain flavors at all.

• 3:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, if they become a colony, they could end up creating dishes that would be offensive to those who taste that. Who have the capacity to taste it, and they don't. And therefore, it's just fine to them.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, for example. I think one of the things that's prevented the Philippines from taking their rightful place as a major world cuisine beloved by everybody on every corner. I think that's because, my guess,

• 4:17Speaker 01

  they like an element of bitterness. And in fact, in the Philippines, they will use bile to add that, you know, very important note to some of their traditional dishes. And that's a taste that Americans, I think, instinctively recoil from in a way that they just simply do not. That's a treasured component. We have textural. Uh, predilections and aversions that seem innate, or at least are so deep in our culture. America, we love anything crispy. You know, anything covered in batter and crispy, we're gonna love. It's better. We don't even need anything inside the batter. We'll eat the batter.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  But when you get into that chewy, uh, rubbery, uh, gelatinous, you know, boiled chicken skin, fish skin, um, abalone, a lot of things that they really love in, you know, tendon in China, Japan. Tendon, tendon's great. It's fantastic. But look, I mean, that's, that's most Americans go, oh dude, no.

• 5:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Guy, explain to me. Explain to me. How is it that somebody could find something to be a delicacy? And I would just find it to be nasty? What is the science behind that? Other than just possibly missing the same taste, you know, not having corresponding taste buds? Cause that can't be, that can't explain everything. Right, so what's going on there?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Well, so we can break this question down into two parts, right? There are foods that people like and dislike. And then there are foods that just plain disgust people. So the, the foods that we learn to like and dislike, that really has to do with sort of genetic inheritance. It has to do with, uh, the maternal diet. It has to do with, you know, how what children ate as they grew up and their culture that they grew up in. You know, like comfort foods. People have a comfort foods they like.

• 6:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is there anybody in the world who doesn't like ice cream?

• 6:16Speaker 03

  I don't really like ice cream.

• 6:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't like ice cream?

• 6:18Speaker 03

  I don't like cold things.

• 6:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What the hell, what?

• 6:21Speaker 03

  Do I have to go?

• 6:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Security? We'll get back to you in a minute. Go.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  So, what I was gonna say, but now there are foods that people dislike, like oysters, right? Oysters are because they're slimy. Or some people just don't like to eat anything that's live and kicking. So it reminds me of a little poem that Roy Blunt wrote. He says, "I prefer my oysters fried. That way I know my oysters died."

• 6:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a fast poem right there.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then you get into the foods that disgust people, alright? And that generally is out of fear. People, a fear of being harmed, and that's what makes them so they've done.

• 6:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's psychological, not scientific, not physiological?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Well, they've done animal studies where they fed animals things that make them sick, and the animals will never eat that food again, whatever. So, you know, I think the example there is like durian fruit. If you're familiar with that, for people in Southeast Asia, they love that stuff. It's the king of fruit. But in the Western world, the aroma just is revolting to people. It smells a combination of, I'll say it nicely, pig excrement mixed with turpentine and spoiling onions, so.

• 7:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dang.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Not a please.

• 7:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, she'll eat it as long as it's not cold.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  Heat it up, it's fine.

• 7:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so what part of liking food then is not subjective?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  So, anything we taste, because what we taste, the receptors for our taste are built into our genes, alright? So, these evolved through history as a means of survival. So, we like sweet things because it's a source of energy. We don't like bitter things, as Anthony was saying, because a lot of toxic materials are very, very bitter. So, that's pretty objective, is that it's built into the brain. But flavor, that's created in your mind, so that's very, very subjective.

• 8:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, so, Sisir, do you think there are any foods that are just objectively gross?

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Candy corn. I don't think anyone likes candy corn.

• 8:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When they put it in your trick or treat?

• 8:15Speaker 03

  You get so upset.

• 8:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  It's like, this is the worst one.

• 8:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I throw it back.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Rather have bile. Just kidding.

• 8:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Guy, you said we have, what are the tastes that we all have?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  So, you get the sense from your mouth, it's taste, from your nose, smell, it goes in your brain, and your brain then takes those two, puts them together, and creates the image of flavor. We don't taste anything that's actual flavor. Your flavor's created in your mind.

• 8:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, so it could be in the future, when we start tickling the neurons of your brain, we can make you taste anything we want?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  It's very possible, yep.

• 8:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, does everyone have the same number of taste receptors? This would be a chemical intersection of your.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Good question.

• 8:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Olfactory glands and the molecule, I presume?

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Right. No, they don't. There's a big genetic difference.

• 9:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really?

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Between, yes, what people can taste. There are things, people we call supertasters. They are extremely sensitive to bitter.

• 9:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I bet the countries that have nasty food, they have very few taste buds.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know about that, but you can easily tell by just sticking your tongue out.

• 9:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can say here, on this show, this is a late night show.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  And looking in the mirror. All those bumps on your tongues, those are your taste buds. And people that are supertasters have lots more of them. I don't know, you may be a non-taster or a non-taster.

• 9:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if you have more of them, so more is better?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  More is better.

• 9:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  More is more.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Well, not necessarily though.

• 9:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whether or not it's better.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Supertasters, though, are very, very picky eaters. They don't like a lot of things. They don't like a lot of vegetables, for example. So they tend to have higher incidence of colon.

• 9:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now they have a physiological excuse?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Yep. For not eating vegetables?

• 9:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To reject the vegetable?

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Yep, I'm afraid so.

• 9:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, you shouldn't do that.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  It's like, oh, just my taste buds.

• 9:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Your taste buds, physiologically, I would be there with you, but no.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  My doctor said I just have too many taste buds.

• 10:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, this is fascinating, because there's science infusing.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We experience at least three times a day. So, I wanted to ask Anthony's thoughts about the role of science in the kitchen.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is it just for the artist? Or is there room for the science geek such as yourself? Let's check it out.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  You know, when you scramble an egg, I forget what it's called, a coagulation of proteins? I'm not sure about the specific processes. But we're all, you know, caramelization, you know? Why does your steak get brown as you cook it and develop the sugars on the outside? All of these things are essential scientific techniques or processes. There's a science reason. Every cook understands instinctively, they may not be able to name what's happening, but they understand very, very, very well when, you know, the effect you want, how to get there, when it's going wrong, when it's going right.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Um, so even something as simple as scrabbling an egg is essentially a scientific manipulation of an ingredient by exposing it to both heat and movement and incorporating air. You're making it behave, an egg behave in the desired way.

• 11:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It reminds me, this is an obscure analogy, but it reminds me of when medicine became modern.

• 11:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It did so because, in part, it looked to see what sort of folk remedies existed around the world and cultures. Oh, you chew on this bark and that gets rid of your headache. Well, what got rid of your headache? So you find out what's in the bark.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And there's this molecule that becomes what we today call aspirin.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so you extract the active ingredient.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then you can exploit that to great gain. And so it seems to me, if you knew exactly the moment and why a sauteed onion becomes sweet.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can possibly hone in on that and exploit that fact with other foods.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  And, and that's what chefs are doing, uh, some chefs are doing every day. I have friends who are rotting all varieties of things in some dark corner of their cellar, experimenting, uh, talking to, uh, uh, microbiologists, uh, from major universities, talking to them late at night, working with them in kitchens, uh, discussing, you know, the wonders of fermentation. What can you ferment? What can you, what's going on in miso? How can I apply that to something else?

• 12:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love miso.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  So much of, of, of food is not about freshness, it's what's called that sweet spot. The, the precise moment in its decay where it is best. Sushi being the best example. Anyone who goes and tells you that, you know, oh, I went to a sushi bar last night, it was, it was the best, the fish was so fresh. I have no understanding at all of sushi. It's not, sushi is not about freshness at all. First of all, even the best places deliberately cure their fish by freezing it, uh, some out of, sometimes out of necessity to kill, uh, uh, the critters, uh, others because it makes it better. Uh, but it's almost never about the freshest fish. Fresh fish is right out of the water, is still in rigor, and it's often rubbery and

• 13:17Speaker 01

  unpleasant and without much flavor. Uh, which is why in Iceland they rot it sometimes, cause you get more funk. You're looking for the perfect point in the decay of the fish. Same with meat. Almost everything we eat and like, cheese, meat, fish, uh, they're all aged, just wine, um, so it's really about decay and rot, cheerful as that sounds. Damn, this, I never knew. Thank you.

• 13:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Guy, scientifically, what's going on when food decays? Just straighten us out about that. And simultaneously, tell us why, for some mysterious reason, that tastes better.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Alright, well, what happens is, the animal's natural enzymes actually break down the proteins. And what that's doing is, that's creating a lot of things called peptides and amino acids that are loaded with umami flavor. So not only does it make it more tender, but it actually adds a lot of this umami flavor to things like aged beef, or anchovies, or these things that have gone through that kind of aged processing.

• 14:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And cheese as well?

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Cheese as well, yes.

• 14:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So is this just trial and error, where you do it until, you do it a little too much, then you die?

• 14:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A little not enough, it doesn't taste good? So how do you guarantee hitting that sweet spot, or is it just trial and error?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Uh, hopefully it's more than better than trial and error. And that's where I think science does come into it, that maybe, you know, the way you design your experiments, where you don't go beyond the sweet spot and end up dying. You know, you need to set it up and be able to tell when things are just about right, and that's how you design the experiments to give you that information.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm really bad at that.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  That's where science helps.

• 15:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're bad at what?

• 15:06Speaker 03

  Figuring out, like, when things are not bad anymore.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  Or like, when things have gone past the sweet spot.

• 15:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, do you like stinky cheese?

• 15:16Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm bad at like smelling, generally.

• 15:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you the first to smell? Well, let me smell that milk, to see if it's bad.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'll smell the milk, and I'll be like, it's probably fine. And then, it's not.

• 15:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, okay, so you have, you're very sensitive to it, then? No, no, I mean, you smell milk, and you say, "It might be bad," but then you drink it, and it's okay?

• 15:36Speaker 03

  Well, I guess I'm just like, the expiration date's made up. It's probably fine. They're trying to get more of my money. I'm gonna drink this milk till I'm done with it.

• 15:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm not testing that hypothesis. Let me presume they're all lying to me and let my milk go past its expiration date.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Well, I don't let it. I'm a busy woman. I just haven't gotten around to drinking a full gallon of milk yet.

• 16:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what's the difference between fermentation, which we all know and love? It's responsible for most of the alcohol we drink. And something just rotting?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 16:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was it the same thing?

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Well, in some ways it is similar. Though fermentation's created by bacteria called lactobacillus bacteria that form lactic acid. It lowers the pH and that stops all other bacteria, especially the harmful ones that might spoil the food or make you sick from growing.

• 16:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  So we're not sensitive.

• 16:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the good bacteria wins out over the bad bacteria?

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're not, you know, lactobacillus bacteria don't make us sick, all right? But the bad ones are...

• 16:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, so you can err on the too much side and you might not like it, but it's not gonna kill you?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 16:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I wanted to ask Anthony about food in space. And you know he's thought about this, because he thinks about food everywhere, including space. So let's check it out.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  I did an episode of Top Chef at NASA headquarters. And we were talking about food in space. And of course, your entire taste perception, I was told, I was talking to, I think Chuck Yeager.

• 17:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Chuck Yeager.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yes. And talking about what you crave, you know, when you've been away from, you know, your favorite restaurants for, or any restaurants for a considerable amount of time. And he talked about how your ability to perceive flavors changes at altitude. People experience this in planes, of course. Plane food is altered so that it makes up for the effects of altitude. But astronauts get it really bad and the stuff they crave more than anything, so Mr. Yeager told me, is hot sauce. Like, you know, Tabasco or anything spicy, because up there, everything tastes bland.

• 17:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're telling me those bulky areas in their spacesuits, they're smuggling bottles of hot sauce on the way up?

• 17:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The astronauts I've spoken to, they say this without hesitation, that they eagerly want spicy foods. And they find themselves visiting other national modules of the space station where their food tends to be spicier than their American food.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that would be tough for me. Bland food for nine months.

• 18:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  I went, I trained in jujitsu, and I foolishly decided I was gonna compete a few times, and in the run-up to the competition, I had to cut weight to make my weight category, which meant doing without salt at all.

• 18:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you don't retain the water?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's horrible. It is horrible. No matter how much I'd eat, I mean, I'd boil a whole chicken loaded with herb and pepper and everything I could, but never satisfied, and I would just get crazier and crazier from the lack of salt, to the point that I found myself sitting on the subway in the summer, looking at a particularly sweaty homeless dude, and thinking, "Oh, I'd like to lick his neck."

• 19:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just one lick. That is fascinatingly gross. So physiologically, the body knows what it needs. Is that what this comes down to?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  It does, yes, in this case.

• 19:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He needs it that badly?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Well, salt has a very, very important role, among other things, but one of the most important things is it maintains the fluid level in the body.

• 19:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which he's trying to disrupt. On purpose.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  If you went the other way and had too much salt, you have too much fluid, and that's when you get high blood pressure. But if you have almost no salt, you have, you know, and no fluid, you have a real strong craving, because you wanna re-establish that balance of getting just the right amount of

• 19:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Enough to lick the neck of a homeless person in the street.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not sure he'd go that far, but yeah, it shows you what an extreme kid.

• 19:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He had the thought.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yes, he did.

• 19:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the body's trying to take care of itself?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 19:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In spite of whatever your stupid-ass behavior might be doing with it?

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, okay, just getting your buy-in on that. Well, up next, we'll feel the burn as we explore the science of spicy food when Star Talk returns.

• 20:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk from the American Museum of Natural History, right here in New York City. We're featuring my interview with celebrity foodie Anthony Bourdain. His food and travel show, Parts Unknown, has taken him on culinary adventures across the globe. And I asked him about the connection between geography and spicy food. Check it out.

• 20:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why do some regions of the world eat spicy foods and others not? And why does it seem that spicy foods corresponds with latitude on Earth? The farther away from the equator you get, the less spicy the food becomes.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Places where food used to rot, people would use spice to cover up the funk of food that was not meat, protein, fish that was not particularly fresh. And also spices preserve food. I think when you look at the spicy food belt, you know, you see people who had to. I mean, this is the story of food. It explains a lot about, you know, if you're in a country where there's a lot of dried legumes, often it was a siege culture. People who had to wall themselves up, surrounded by enemies and wait for the enemies to die of starvation because they had plenty of lentils.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  That's an oversimplification, but true. Why do people eat really rotten food sometimes? You know, why do they like harkar, a rotten shark, in Iceland, which is literally rotted to the point of putrification? Their flavor spectrum up there was very narrow. I think they just got, their palates got bored. They needed, you know, how do we, they didn't have access to much in the way of spices, so they just started rotting stuff. But I think the spice question is simple. No refrigeration and hot temperatures.

• 22:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Guy, how does spice preserve food? What's going on?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Well, so, all these, the food start to rot because, one reason, the bacteria start to attack them and eat up the proteins and make all these smelly things. But spices are really, really good, some of them, about a dozen, really good antibacterial agents. Things like oregano and thyme, they have really strong activity against bacteria, so they will kill off and preserve the food for a longer period of time. Plus, they will mask any sort of off flavors that might develop in the meantime, so, yes.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  My favorite spice is scary spice.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Then baby, posh, ginger, sporty.

• 23:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I forgot all about that.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  How could you forget?

• 23:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh man, I was like, wait, how old are you?

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Um, excuse me, we're on television right now.

• 23:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Anthony Bourdain, he's tried every spicy food on earth. And then I told him about the spiciest food that I ever experienced. Let's check it out.

• 23:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I ate at an authentic Sichuan restaurant in San Francisco recently. And I was waiting for the next dish to be some reprieve from the previous dish.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that did not happen.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Every single dish was hotter than the previous one.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Even in Chengdu, the major city in Sichuan province, or where I've been a few times, you'll see locals at their favorite Sichuan hot pot place, literally doubled over, holding their stomachs, mopping, mopping their necks, faces beet red. Um, it is, it can be excruciatingly painful, and this is an interesting, uh, scientific phenomenon that, that's always intrigued me. Um, a lot of people suggest that their favorite Sichuan hot pot has, that they secretly lace it with opium. Because, uh, what happens is they eat this scorchingly hot food, very uncomfortable to eat, but intensely pleasurable.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Um, and the next day, they wake up with a craving. And I find this as well, when I'm eating really, really, really spicy food. And some have suggested that this is due to, there's this flood of endorphins that your brain releases when experiencing really painful, painfully hot food. And that...

• 24:49Speaker 01

  That I guess that happens while you're eating it. And the next morning, it's not there. And you're you feel this sudden.

• 24:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You feel the absence.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  The absence of that endorphin rush that you had the night before. And this immediately compels you to get more. I've had this experience after tattoos as well. I've had a lot of people who've gotten tattooed. And like me, say that right afterwards, they always want another, which seems counterintuitive. This is good because I don't have any. So maybe if I should stay that way.

• 25:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So so this interesting, this endorphin rush from spicy food. So, you know, we sent out Natalia Reagan. One of our Startalk science correspondents. So let's see what she got for us.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Hey, Neil, I'm with hot sauce guru Noah Chamberlain here at The Heatonist. It is a hot sauce shop here in Brooklyn, and we are going to try some of the hottest hot sauces out there in the world and hopefully understand why people like the pleasure of painfully spicy food. What do you have for me, Noah?

• 26:00Speaker 05

  So we're going to start off with a Beijing style sauce here. And in Barbados, they always put mustard in the hot sauce.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  Okay, let's see. Mmm. Oh, I like that. It's nice, got a little sweetness to it. Yeah. Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 05

  Nice kick, too.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  It does. And the interesting thing, the reason why we feel the spice is that chili peppers have capsaicin, which is a compound that actually was was produced by plants to keep mammals from eating them because mammals actually grind the seeds. And so it's not great for dispersing chili peppers. But birds swallow the seeds and they are great at dispersing seeds because they can fly and they can eliminate them wherever they may go.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  So next up, we have from a small farm in Japan. This sauce is made with golden habaneros and a bit of dried mango.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  The sweet and a nice kick in the butt right afterwards. I'm gonna need some milk. And the reason why I take a sip of milk is actually the fat and the casein in the milk binds the capsaicin and washes it away, which is exactly what I need right now.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  The other thing that works well is alcohol, but it can't be something weak. It has to be strong alcohol, so no beer, gotta have a shot of something.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  Oh, good.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  So, the last sauce for today.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  That is very red.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  It is. This sauce is made with Carolina Reaper, which since 2013 has been in the Guinness Book of Records as the world's hottest pepper.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Okay, why just since 2013? What was it before 2013?

• 27:28Speaker 05

  It actually didn't exist before then, so the Carolina Reaper is a hybrid prepper.

• 27:33Speaker 04

  Here we go. It's nice knowing you, Neil.

• 27:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, so people are always looking for something hotter and hotter because of that pleasure that we get from the pain of hot sauce.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Oh, God. Son of a motherless goat, that's hot.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  Hmm. There you have it, Neil. This awful, serious, life-altering pain I'm feeling as a result of hybridization, methodically cross-breeding two types of peppers for this ultimate pain. Thanks, science!

• 28:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What next? We'll be taking your questions on the science of food when StarTalk returns.

• 28:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk from the American Museum of Natural History. We're featuring my interview with chef, author, world traveler Anthony Bourdain. And we're talking about the science of food. Check it out. There's a branch of the culinary universe that seems to focus on molecular...

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Molecular gastronomy.

• 28:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, am I correct in characterizing that as how can I bring as much science as I possibly can to the protein molecules and the freezing and the cooking times? Does this subtract... The experience from you or add to it?

• 29:07Speaker 01

  It depends. I know a few chefs who are really, really great at this and they're like scientists. I was just talking to Wiley Dufresne, one of the real masters of this area of cooking. And he says, "Look, in my restaurant, we ask questions. We're asking questions about food and the dining experience." They're not necessarily looking to dazzle or to challenge their diners. They're asking questions like, "Can I deep fry mayonnaise?" Answer: "Yes." Also...

• 29:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm sorry, I would have never, in my whole life, that is a not, I'm sorry, I would never thought that.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  But, once he figured out how to deep fry mayonnaise, he figured out how he could fry other sauces, how to cause them to stay essentially solid. Solid and not explode when you throw it to hot fat. Ferran Adria, Wiley Dufresne, and a very few other chefs make this experience intensely pleasurable and exciting and fun. Many other imitators, it is a long painful slog through one of their meals, where it's a science class for its own sake, you know, "Look, I can, look what I can do."

• 30:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Joining us now for a conversation on the intersection of food and science is chemical scientist Yvette Dontruman, and you're known simply as Sci Babe.

• 30:41Speaker 06

  Sci Babe, indeed.

• 30:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so you got a reputation online for doing what?

• 30:45Speaker 06

  Debunking bad science with a combination of good science and dick jokes.

• 30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But as it relates to food?

• 30:52Speaker 06

  Yes, yes, a lot of...

• 30:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it's always bad science, but it's especially bad science related to food. So do chefs, do you think they would make better food if they had a firm understanding of the chemistry of food?

• 31:06Speaker 06

  I think it can help, but I've seen somebody try to make mashed potatoes using amylase to break down, they're like, "Look, I can make the creamiest mashed potatoes you've ever made, you've ever seen." Instead, they made sugary goop because when you break down starch, you get sugar. Sometimes you just have to add some butter and cream to your potatoes.

• 31:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Guy, you have some science food demo you can share with us.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, we do.

• 31:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I just happen to have some liquid nitrogen. Right, never leave home without it.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, of course, you need some goggles.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Yes, for sure.

• 31:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And...

• 31:40Speaker 03

  You're the only one with goggles? We don't get goggles?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're gonna do some reverse cooking, huh?

• 31:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, there we go.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What do you have for us?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Well, I happen to have right here some ice cream mix, too.

• 31:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, just ice cream mix? It looks like blueberry ice cream.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Right, just, so we're gonna drop some in.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  This is like casting a spell.

• 32:04Speaker 06

  Would these be StarTalk dots?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  And look at them, they're forming, and we'll get a few in here.

• 32:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So why don't you have a chant?

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, boil, boil, boil.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, toil and trouble, toil and trouble. Go ahead, you're doing a great job.

• 32:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have you ever heard the vegetarian witches?

• 32:19Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Eye of potato, head of lettuce.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  I think we've probably got enough in here, huh?

• 32:27Speaker 03

  Just full of dad jokes.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Let's see what we've got, let's put in a little.

• 32:34Speaker 06

  Just curious. Ooh, that's nice and cold.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, isn't it, though?

• 32:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, do you do this at home?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 32:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's all right.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  And the whole point of this liquid nitrogen is it freezes the thing so fast that the crystals are extremely small, so they have a really super smooth texture.

• 32:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Could you get, so you get only big crystals when it freezes slowly?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Slowly, yeah, and that makes it very grainy, so you don't want that.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  There's still smoke coming off of it.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it may be very cold, so be careful.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  I love the show.

• 33:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, our StarTalk fans had their own questions about the science of food, and, which means right now, it's time for Cosmic Queries.

• 33:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, we took your questions of trying to separate food myths from food science. So bring it on, Sashir.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  Okay, Drew G from Instagram says, "Is there definitive evidence that certified organic foods are actually healthier?"

• 33:31Speaker 06

  At this point in time, there is no evidence to suggest that organic foods are healthier than conventionally grown produce. And the other thing is, organic uses pesticides, too. A lot of people think they're pesticide-free. Notice it doesn't say pesticide-free on the label, it says organic. So, they're just different farming techniques, so...

• 33:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you're a scientist. What do you know?

• 33:53Speaker 06

  Science.

• 33:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Guy, you want to add to that?

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Yes, there is generally, though, you'll find that one area that it does show some improvement in organic is the chemical pesticide residues because they don't allow, you know, chemical ones in, organic.

• 34:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you mean artificial chemicals as opposed to

• 34:10Speaker 06

  Well, it's

• 34:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  natural chemicals?

• 34:12Speaker 06

  Right. All, uh, actually, there are some synthetic pesticides allowed in organic farming, and not all synthetics are necessarily more toxic than, uh, the naturally occurring ones. There are a lot of crossover between, you know, what's more toxic, what's less toxic, and natural doesn't mean better for you. I've heard a rumor that polio is natural. I'm just saying, natural does not mean good for you.

• 34:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Up next, Anthony Bourdain describes his culinary adventures in Antarctica when StarTalk returns.

• 35:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk from the American Museum of Natural History. We're featuring my interview with food and travel show host Anthony Bourdain, and he recently visited an unlikely spot for food lovers: Antarctica. And I asked him about that experience. Check it out.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  It's another planet. Uh, it feels like another planet. On one hand, you know, everyone should go and see it. On the other hand, it kind of defeats a purpose. It is the last un-effed-up place on Earth. It's pristine. You know, every drop of urine goes into bottles, then into 55-gallon drums and shipped back to America along with ever, or elsewhere, with every little bit of waste. It is the most incredible spot, uh, place of pure science and pure learning, where people are incrementally seeking answers to questions they might never

• 36:01Speaker 01

  ants are in their life. They're just looking to move things forward. So we we met with the guys with a super telescope, a part of an array, I guess, that goes around the entire globe. It's looking at the sun. Some people collecting neutrinos, which I don't really fully underst- no, I don't understand at all, but they sound really cool. So what do they eat? They gotta ship in the steaks? Well. And the vegetables? What, everything comes in, but mostly by ship, but all, some stuff by plane. Everything is essentially, uh, processed, frozen, uh... Frozen, really? Yeah. Um, and, you know, one of the refrains when you arrive from the people who spent months there, uh, is do you have any freshies?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  It's like the living dead. You know, they're like, do you have brains? They're like, do you have any freshies? So there's a real premium on the rare arrival of, you know, lettuce or avocados or anything fresh. So, but they make, they do a lot with a little. Mm-hmm. And so, was that your first sort of baptism into a community of scientists? Uh, yes, for sure. I found it interesting when, uh, going out to visit the penguin colonies, though, we were on a helicopter out to the site. And a bunch of fresh-faced, very enthusiastic, uh, kids who'd come down to, you know, help out, an intern, I guess, you know, was go out and, you know, hug the penguin day. You know, they were all excited that they go out and get to tag, uh, penguins and, you know, hold one, you know, penguins are cute, you know, you... And all the movies?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, they didn't tell them that, you know, um, when you pick up a penguin, they spray you with, you know, a horrifying array of, you know, wet diarrhea. They all came back rather downcast-looking and smelling a bit ripe. So, Guy, he says Antarctica is like another planet. Of course, he's right. Uh, it's the closest thing on Earth we have to Mars, where it's cold and dry. And how would your cooking advice differ for people living on another planet?

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Well, it's kinda like being in an airplane in a way, right? It's cold, it's dry, and you've got maybe different pressure, different atmosphere. So probably the food's gonna be bland there unless they really spice it up, add a lot of seasoning to it.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Right. So, this experience he had in Antarctica gave him a unique perspective on climate change. So let's check it out. The climate change discussion is no more acutely felt, at least in people's minds, or observed in Antarctica where they're really looking at it and talk about it a lot. But of course, it's perilous now to talk about it because everyone is fully aware that their data is being deleted from government computers, and if they find themselves on a blacklist of people who might possibly be interested in the subject, that they could find themselves suddenly not needed. These are not good times for science or scientists, and they felt very much under threat down there, and for good reason.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Particularly when you're pursuing subjects that aren't going to have a useful monetary application anytime soon. Tough argument to make in this political climate. But I see it, look, I see it everywhere. The fishing industry's everywhere affected. The Caribbean, where I've seen in my own lifetime, you know, not just whole reefs, all the reefs bleached and lifeless now. I mean, I'm seeing the physical changes, but the people who really seem to feel it most and notice it are farmers, fishermen, they're feeling it.

• 39:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this would affect cuisine directly?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt about it. You know, some species are thriving, others disappearing. You know, that changes what we eat. We, you know, chefs and cooks and, you know, anybody who needs to feed their family responds to what's available. That's always been the engine of cooking.

• 39:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so Yvette, you worked as a chemist in the agricultural industry. So describe to me your firsthand experience between food and environment.

• 40:08Speaker 06

  Well, I worked researching pesticides to make sure that they were safe for crop application and of course for humans, but this also gave me a really good perspective on how deeply connected what we do with agriculture is to the environment. Because every time that you use more land to grow crops, you're using less land for wildlife. So we need to, we're seeing technologies being deployed to try to fight this more and more as we move forward.

• 40:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Guy, what's the first consequence in the chef's kitchen?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Well, of course, you're gonna have, you know, higher CO2 and temperatures. So that's gonna change your seasonal availability. And of course, costs will go up and nutritional quality tends to go down. So, yeah, so those will be some of the issues. But on the other hand, you do have some advantages. For example, the higher temperatures. Some things will, like, for example, you know, grapes really like the heat stress to create really good wine. So you might even find that wine even in England might actually become pretty good.

• 41:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you just have, did you, you put the word wine and England in the same sentence?

• 41:13Speaker 02

  I did, yes. Huh? I lived in England.

• 41:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you're saying is, all the other food stuffs will be crap, but we'll have really good wine? Well, coming up in the science of food, Anthony Bourdain and I discuss meat grown in the laboratory when StarTalk returns.

• 41:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk. We're talking about the science of food and the culture of food. And I asked food and travel host Anthony Bourdain what he's learned from sharing meals at so many different tables around the world. Check it out.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  I guess it became fairly quickly apparent that food was intensely personal, that it was a reflection of a place, of a culture, of a history, often a very painful history. And maybe the most important example in the trajectory of my show was Beirut in 2006, when we were doing what was ostensibly still a food and travel show. Uh, we'd finished. Very travelogue. Yeah, well, we'd finished shooting another, you know, sort of upbeat, snarky, maybe, uh,

• 42:43Speaker 01

  uh, restaurant scene, uh, and the crew joined me in my room, uh, for beers in the mini-bar. And we're looking, uh, lazily out the window and, uh, you know, rockets and, uh, uh, gunships, uh, attacked the airport, blowing into smithereens, uh, our local crew disappears for the border, and, uh, we found ourselves in a war, uh, blockaded, unable to leave, and trapped in Beirut for, uh, for the next week or so, waiting to be evacuated, and, uh, by the US military. Yeah, the Marine Corps, uh, the Navy Marines took us off the beach in a, in LCU's,

• 43:22Speaker 01

  uh, dramatic, uh, in an LCU filled with wailing, crying, uh, refugees, and just looking out at the water as we pulled away from the beach. It just struck me as obscene to contemplate ever doing a upbeat food show, uh, in a world that allows things like this to happen regularly. So this was a pivot point. Absolutely, everything changed, everything changed at that moment, and I started looking around, and I was determined, uh, you know, if I'm sitting in the hills of Laos, you know, I would ask the obvious question when my host is missing a limb, wh- wh- where'd you lose a limb?

• 44:02Speaker 01

  And we're eating, true, but Chaz is already gonna tell me, well, um, I was alive for the secret war here, but your military was kind enough to leave behind, you know, a few million tons of, uh, unexploded ordnance, and I happened to step on one of those. Um, I think people open up to me, uh, and tell me about their lives, because I'm asking simple questions, we're just eating.

• 44:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Tricia, why do you think sharing a meal seems to open people up culturally?

• 44:33Speaker 03

  I think food does have kind of an emotional tie. You're already like in a vulnerable state because you're hungry, so you're fulfilling something. And it's just nice to be in a communal space where you're sharing this moment together, or eating good food together, I mean hopefully good food, and enjoying something. So it's, you know, you're prone to talking and you can actually be able to share more information that way than just like, I don't know, setting up a meeting or something.

• 44:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, let's take a meeting, right. It's very different over food, isn't it?

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 45:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so Yvette, you keep up with sort of techie trends in food?

• 45:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what about lab-grown meat? What is the potential for that?

• 45:13Speaker 06

  There is a large impact on the environment from this sector of agriculture. And if this can reduce our impact on the environment while still giving me something yummy, shove it in my face hole, okay?

• 45:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Guy, is this, how realistic is lab-grown meat as a replacement for somebody's ribeye?

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Well, there's a lot of new companies working feverishly right now to try to get this done through cell culture. And it's estimating, you know, the typical processed type of meat, you know, like ground hamburger or sausage, maybe five years away before it's actually on the market.

• 45:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because that one texture is not so much the issue, because it's already ground up.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not a structured meat like a whole big steak or something. Which would maybe, maybe 10 years away before they're able to bring that up.

• 46:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I asked chef and author Anthony Bourdain what he thinks about lab-grown meat. Let's check it out.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  I think laboratory-grown meat, the thought horrifies me as a chef, as a cook, as a, as a, somebody who's passionate.

• 46:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You still get to cook it, you just don't have to kill the animal.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, we're talking meat-like, aren't we? I mean, so much of meat is textural. It is the interconnected viscera, muscle, and, you know, fat. And I, you know, what makes meat interesting is the degree of exercise, its diet, how the, you know, what you prize in beef is the marbling, the ripple of fat through lean that comes from movement. Presumably, your laboratory-grown meat will not have moved at any point. But I suspect given...

• 46:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's out of pasture now.

• 46:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's that cube.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Given the way, uh, given the way, uh, the world is going, we might well have to eat, uh, laboratory grown meat soon, if not our neighbors.

• 47:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I think the first round of it will be ground meat.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Will might replace hamburger meat, which you're not in search of the marbling and the textures and, uh, well, not as much as the T-bone or the ribeye.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  I, well, not as much.

• 47:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. That's all I'm saying. That's, it might be its first foray, but that could completely transform your world.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yes, and look, a, a lot of the world.

• 47:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not your world, not only your world, the world.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  The, look, there are a lot of hungry people in this world who, for whom, uh, a single chicken is, is a life or death thing. It's a, um, they need protein, um, and I guess laboratory grown meat would be a solution. Uh, but we, you know, we've given up on something really fundamental. It goes, when we move to laboratory grown meat, when any culture does, it's a surrender. W- w- w- we're, we're, we're shutting ourselves off to something that goes back to the beginning of human civilization. In fact, it's likely it was the beginning of human civilization, the fire and a hunk of meat. You know, it was

• 48:14Speaker 01

  the first time people probably cooperated, you know? I'll kill the animal. He'll, you drag it back to the fire, you build the fire, and then we're all sitting around figuring out how we're going to divide up this thing. That's kind of the beginning of any kind of organized society, uh, according to some scientists.

• 48:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The idea that food goes back, capturing the culture of a place, capturing a time, I respect that. However, just because something happened long ago and you respect it because it's old, doesn't mean something can't happen that's new, and then you respect it because it's new.

• 49:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can create something new that a thousand years they'll look back and say, "Way back in the early 21st century, this new product emerged." It is cultural. It's traceable that far back. And it emerged at a time when there were food shortages. When not all the world had access to proteins. Not all the world had access to vitamin enrichment. People were dying. Climates were changing. It may be that we're living at the cusp of a food revolution.

• 49:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where we no longer look towards the cultures disparate around the world that produced one kind of food or another. Maybe the very culture we're after is the culture of the Petri dish.

• 49:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Maybe that's the culture. We should ask, "How should we manage our food? What should we do about the shortages today? Especially in a growing population." So I see the future of food as, "We're gonna look back. We're gonna look back to the early 21st century. We're gonna say, 'Wow, we invented whole new cuisines that could feed the world.'" And that is a cosmic perspective. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, I bid you to keep looking up.