Cosmic Queries – Humans and Robots

What separates humans from robots? Will humans eventually be fully dependent on automation? Neil deGrasse Tyson, comic co-host Chuck Nice, and robot ethicist Kate Darling, PhD, answer your Cosmic Queries on humans, robots, and everything in-between.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. StarTalk, Cosmic Queries Edition. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, bringing you this episode from my office at the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History, right here in New York City. And of course, I have with me Chuck Nice.

• 0:32Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil. What's up, buddy?

• 0:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How you feeling?

• 0:35Chuck Nice?

  I'm doing well.

• 0:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. Good. You ready for some cosmic queries?

• 0:39Chuck Nice?

  Always ready for the cosmic query.

• 0:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This one in particular, because it's on the relationship between humans and robots.

• 0:43Chuck Nice?

  Ah.

• 0:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's weird.

• 0:45Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a lot of dark places that can go.

• 0:48Chuck Nice?

  Does not compute. Of course. That's the big, you know.

• 0:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And of course, you tweet at ChuckNiceComic.

• 0:53Chuck Nice?

  Thank you, sir. Yes, I do.

• 0:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you'd have, want me to take out the person who's got Chuck Nice as the handle?

• 0:58Chuck Nice?

  Please do. I don't know, and you know what? He's got like 12 followers.

• 1:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you want your 20 followers to...

• 1:06Chuck Nice?

  And I want my 22 followers to be able to just cut, no, I kind of like the Chuck Nice Comic now.

• 1:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, it grows on you, right?

• 1:14Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 1:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It becomes your thing, right? So, on that subject, we have expertise.

• 1:19Chuck Nice?

  Yes, we do.

• 1:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We reached out 200 miles away.

• 1:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 1:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Up in Cambridge.

• 1:26Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 1:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we found a Canterburyian. Kate Darling, Kate.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 1:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hi. Welcome to StarTalk. And you are an expert on issues related to humans and computers.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Yes. Specifically, robots, yes.

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, sorry. Yes, robots.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  I like computers, too.

• 1:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46Chuck Nice?

  There are no robots, though, you know. Computers, they don't really, I mean, robots are cool. Computers are just computers.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good point. Right, yeah. I get that.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  It is known, yes.

• 1:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the MIT Media Lab. And you've been there how long?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Nine and a half years.

• 2:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you, did you come there, and you came there from how?

• 2:05Speaker 02

  I was a doctoral student at the ETH in Zurich, which is a tech university. It's kind of like the Europe MIT, but no one knows that.

• 2:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  ETH, is that a word, or is that an abbreviation?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  It's an abbreviation.

• 2:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For?

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Allgemeine Technische Hochschule.

• 2:21Chuck Nice?

  Allgemeine Technische Hochschule.

• 2:24Chuck Nice?

  She was showing off there. Yes, exactly.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  I think you said it better than I did.

• 2:30Chuck Nice?

  What is Hossula?

• 2:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so that translates to what?

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Uh, federal technical institute, no, federal, yeah, federal technical institute.

• 2:42Chuck Nice?

  Are you sure you speak German?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Not anymore.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  You're not sure anymore.

• 2:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what was, what were your research topics there?

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Okay, so there I was doing law and economics and intellectual property.

• 2:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  But.

• 2:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What kind of economics?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Law and economics.

• 3:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Law and economics and intellectual property.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the ETH has a great robotics program, a lot of roboticists there, and I've always loved robots. And so when I got the opportunity to come to the Media Lab, I made friends with all the roboticists and switched fields.

• 3:14Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 3:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's good.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15Chuck Nice?

  Very cool.

• 3:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To be, to be, not only to know you, you needed to be that nimble that the system can accommodate it. That's not always the case.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, very good. All right, Chuck, so we got these questions that came in.

• 3:29Chuck Nice?

  Yes, we do.

• 3:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Solicited on.

• 3:30Chuck Nice?

  Lots of them.

• 3:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Humans and robots.

• 3:32Chuck Nice?

  That's right, and everybody wants to know.

• 3:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody, this is not a, this is a, this is not a small topic.

• 3:38Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, this is something that everybody gets into, you know?

• 3:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, all right, let's do it.

• 3:41Chuck Nice?

  And so we always start with a Patreon patron.

• 3:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 3:44Chuck Nice?

  Because they, uh, they offer us support in the form of, uh, financial contributions.

• 3:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Money.

• 3:51Chuck Nice?

  Money. That's right.

• 3:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So many euphemisms for money. It's amazing.

• 3:55Chuck Nice?

  Isn't it really? Yes. Uh, yes, exactly.

• 3:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We used to have a fundraising department, now there's development department.

• 4:02Chuck Nice?

  Oh, development. We're going to develop some funds. We, I believe they call that counterfeiting.

• 4:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Developing funds in the back office.

• 4:09Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, we're developing some funds.

• 4:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The machine is running right now.

• 4:13Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. But anyway, uh, let's go with Jared Goodwin, who says, uh, "If a robot can pass the Turing test, should it be endowed with inalienable rights? Could it be a marriage partner? If it's the cause of a human death, should it stand trial?"

• 4:33Chuck Nice?

  Also, uh, isn't the human fear of AI just a fear of any species should have of evolution? And I mean, that begs another question, is AI the next incarnation of human evolution?

• 4:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, that's a lot there.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  That was five questions.

• 4:49Chuck Nice?

  Five questions. So I'm gonna tell you what, uh, let's go with just the first one, which is, let's say it passed the Turing test, which, I mean, everything does now.

• 4:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Should it have inalienable rights?

• 5:00Chuck Nice?

  Right, should it have inalienable rights?

• 5:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or we can broaden it and say, is there a threshold, even if not the Turing test?

• 5:05Chuck Nice?

  Oh, yeah, it's a good question. That's a better question.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  That's a better question, because arguably, robots have already passed the Turing test.

• 5:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I would think so too.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh huh. But tell us what the Turing test is.

• 5:15Chuck Nice?

  That's a good question.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  So, yeah, the Turing test, so Alan Turing, way back in the day, one of you probably knows the exact year, he came up with this concept of the Turing test, where he was like, it doesn't actually matter if a machine is intelligent, as long as it can pass as intelligent. So if it can fool people into thinking it's intelligent, that's basically just as good. Um, and...

• 5:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know some people.

• 5:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Who just barely passed the Turing test.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and, and well, so some people have turned this into contests around the world, where the, it's popular for chatbots, you know, can a chatbot fool judges into thinking that it's a human, that they're talking to a human for a specific amount of time, and, you know, multiple chatbots have passed that test.

• 6:05Chuck Nice?

  But they never helped me. I never received help from a chatbot.

• 6:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So these are, these are, just so I understand it, a chatbot is, would be software that can interpret your question well enough and give an answer good enough.

• 6:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that you're listening and you say I'm talking to a human?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  And there's some tricks that they use to get them to pass it, like, for example, one year this chatbot won one of the competitions by pretending to be a 13-year-old from the Ukraine, from Ukraine, and like, the expectations for how it would chat with you are maybe a little bit different than if it was pretending to be you, for example, so I, I think that, you know, there are a lot of little design tricks where we can get people to think that robots are intelligent. Um, we're already there.

• 6:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But so is that even fair, because now you're, you're using tactics to trick a human rather than have it be an authentic profile or properties? That's a good point.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  I mean, all of our communication is tactics, though, isn't it?

• 7:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll give you an example. So, I go way back, just, I'm an old man. Okay, alright. However old you don't think I am, it's makeup. So, so, I remember the early days of playing chess against a computer. And I did this and it beat my ass every time. And then I realized, I can trick it. So here's what I did. I would, about to be, about to make a good move, where I'd, and I wouldn't take it.

• 7:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'd make a different move. And it doesn't understand that, because it's a very obvious move I should be making, and I'm not. And it disrupted its logical sequencing, and it doesn't know how to defend against something that I'm not attacking. Right. And so it started moving in random places, and then when I got it distracted, then I went in for that move, when it was no longer expecting it. Because it gave up on me having to do, and so, I tactically beat the computer. But I didn't feel good about that, because I, it wasn't just a brute force, head-to-head. So, uh, uh, should we allow someone to purposely tactically fool a human into thinking it's human?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that's Turing's whole thing, right? If you can fool them, it doesn't have to actually be intelligent.

• 8:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but if you fool it with, with targeted algorithms, that feels unfair.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm curious, I mean, Turing unfortunately is dead, so we can't ask him.

• 8:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where the he be okay, where the he be, yo, you cool with that?

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:39Chuck Nice?

  Fool me once, shame on me.

• 8:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm just saying, I don't feel like I actually defeated the computer.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I beat it. I, I beat it, cause I beat it.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Cause you kinda cheated.

• 8:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I cheated a little.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  You didn't actually beat it because you were skilled at chess.

• 8:53Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 8:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you, that's how, how I should have said it.

• 8:55Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly.

• 8:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, I beat it because I, I figured out how it worked. And then outwitted it. Yeah, I'm, I'm, and I'm not proud of this, I live with this.

• 9:08Chuck Nice?

  I've lost lots of sleep over this.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Weighs on you every day still.

• 9:13Chuck Nice?

  Well, the chatbots work, I mean, you know, the, the, most companies now use them for, uh, customer service when you are on the website. And they say, can the thing, it, it pops up, can I help you with something? And it knows, there's only so many reasons you can come to this website. So whenever that happens, whenever it pops up and says, can I help you? Just actually say something that is, has nothing to do with the website. And you, and, and it's just like, yes, like, I'm losing my home right now. Can you help me? Or can you loan me thirty dollars?

• 9:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The fact that you know that this is something to do tells me you need a life.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, why are you sitting at home trying to trick the chatbots?

• 9:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, this is sad.

• 9:59Chuck Nice?

  That, I was gonna say, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this right now. Because, why am I doing that? It's a good question. I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's great to see, because you just, I just wanna see what it says, you know what I mean?

• 10:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so let's look at, let's look at the limit. So you, you have a chatbot that fools in these contests.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that a threshold where you start giving it rights?

• 10:21Speaker 02

  No, definitely not. And, and, and I'm not sure what this question asker means by the Turing test. Like, maybe he means... If it could fool you no matter what, like not just in this contest and not by cheating, if it could fool you into thinking it's intelligent.

• 10:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Imagine a flexible Turing test appropriate for whatever is the thresholds of the day. So if Turing were around today, whatever his Turing test would be, should that be sufficient?

• 10:48Chuck Nice?

  Suppose it says, "I don't want to die," okay?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 10:53Chuck Nice?

  And no one ever programmed it to say this.

• 10:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh.

• 10:56Chuck Nice?

  And it says, because it's machine learning and through many interactions it has determined, "I'm alive and I don't want to die."

• 11:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, you're freaking me out, Chuck.

• 11:06Chuck Nice?

  Does it deserve rights?

• 11:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  I mean, it depends on your theory of rights. Because animals arguably say in their animal language, "I don't want to die," and we kill them anyway.

• 11:20Chuck Nice?

  Well, because machines aren't delicious. I mean, let's just be honest. I'll tell you right now, if my Apple computer actually tasted like an apple, it wouldn't stand a chance.

• 11:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kate, you make a very important perceptive point. That even though an animal, another animal cannot tell you, "I don't want to die," it's behaving like you don't want to get hurt.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  And we actually know that they feel pain.

• 11:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We know it, all, all, top to bottom, right. Yet we killed them anyway.

• 11:51Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god, you guys are gonna make me vegan right now. This is terrible. This is awful. I never thought of it like that.

• 11:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, Kate, you're messing with us. So, yeah, what you said is unarguably correct.

• 12:03Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 12:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that alone would be insufficient to give it rights.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I mean, if we're gonna behave like we have for the past millennia, but we could also say, "Hey, we want to be better," and we could give animals rights and give the robots rights.

• 12:18Chuck Nice?

  That's just too much, I'm sorry.

• 12:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My God, Chuck, it doesn't say, "I don't want to die," it says, "And this too shall pass."

• 12:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Looks like...

• 12:28Chuck Nice?

  Whoa, wow. Wow.

• 12:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or if it says, "Tell me about your mother." There might be some that, no, but I, I agree. I, I can't, it's, what you said is, we, we kill stuff. We kill stuff that we know.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  And you know what the sad thing is? We'll probably give some robots rights before we give the animals rights because the robot can manipulate us and can be designed in a way that particularly appeals to us. The way that we protect certain animals over others.

• 12:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which I think is, is, is, is not entirely fair. We like fuzzy furry animals better than animals that don't have our fur. That's true.

• 13:05Chuck Nice?

  That's true. Shrimp never stand a chance.

• 13:09Chuck Nice?

  Shrimp, shrimp don't stand a chance.

• 13:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Shrimp don't have fur.

• 13:11Chuck Nice?

  That's right. Ugly spiders, sea creatures. You know, and you delicious, oh, and you delicious. You ugly and delicious, you don't stand a chance. That's why lobsters.

• 13:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you can see in some dipping sauce.

• 13:27Chuck Nice?

  Yes, exactly. You know, it's like, that's how lobsters, like, somebody made drawn butter and they were like, let's just start dipping stuff in it. And they got the lobster and they were like, this is it.

• 13:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, because the first person to eat a lobster, that's a brave person.

• 13:39Chuck Nice?

  That's a brave person.

• 13:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's some ugly animal right there.

• 13:42Chuck Nice?

  Really? Are you gonna eat that ocean roach? Like, are you real? Yeah, and it's like, yeah, no, don't try it with a drawn butter. Oh my God, what a delicacy. But yeah, okay, well, great answer. It doesn't.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Not for the animals.

• 13:56Chuck Nice?

  Not for the animals and not for the, not for the machines either. You know, it seems as though it's like, you know, I, I really, what it has, what, what you just described is, uh, human, our need to be superior. It's basically our need to play God over these other, you know.

• 14:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To be able to decide if they live or die.

• 14:15Chuck Nice?

  Decide their fates.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  And we do that even to other people, right? This seems to be.

• 14:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it's.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Kind of our dark side.

• 14:20Chuck Nice?

  It's our dark side. Wow, okay.

• 14:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're turning me out here.

• 14:24Chuck Nice?

  Damn.

• 14:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, go.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Well, we could just stop doing that. We, couldn't we just stop doing that? Like.

• 14:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Apparently it's been very hard over the millennia.

• 14:33Chuck Nice?

  I was gonna say, if you look at our history, no we can't.

• 14:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Apparently, it's really, really hard.

• 14:38Chuck Nice?

  Clearly, we can't do that, you know?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  I do think we should try.

• 14:42Chuck Nice?

  Okay, the trying is a good thing. All right, here we go. This is David Blum from Instagram. He says, hey there.

• 14:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do we finish with the Patreons?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  With the five questions?

• 14:50Chuck Nice?

  Well, he had five questions, but that was the big one.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  That was.

• 14:53Chuck Nice?

  The rest of them were just lesser.

• 14:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Versions.

• 14:56Chuck Nice?

  Lesser versions of, do they have those rights, like the right, you know? Cause like, I mean, if you don't have the right to be alive.

• 15:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nothing else matters.

• 15:04Chuck Nice?

  Nothing else matters.

• 15:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it ain't about whether you can.

• 15:06Chuck Nice?

  I don't care if you get married or not, you know what I mean? If machines marry, we're gonna kill you anyway. I don't give a damn if my sheep is married when I eat it. Okay, well, I don't eat mutton, but my lamb.

• 15:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nobody's eating mutton today.

• 15:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly, you know, so, there you go. Marry all the chickens you want. I am still eating that chicken sandwich. That's what I'm saying. That was my husband, all right.

• 15:33Chuck Nice?

  Okay, here we go.

• 15:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, give me another one.

• 15:39Chuck Nice?

  Here we go. David Blum from Instagram says this, hey, David Blum here, and Chuck, it's pronounced bloom. You know?

• 15:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They know you have issues.

• 15:47Chuck Nice?

  There you go. Big fan, great show. Here's the question. We tend to imagine robots like humanoids, two arms and two legs. But things have already, uh, things already have, uh, like automated vending machines and self-driving cars and responding cars. These should be considered robots. What defines a robot? And does AI have to be involved?

• 16:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Great question, and we don't have time to answer that.

• 16:12Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  What?

• 16:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, just for this segment, just for this segment.

• 16:17Chuck Nice?

  Hey, he's excited for this one.

• 16:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Man, I was like, okay. When we come back, we will find out what in modern day defines a robot. I'll start.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  I am Michelle Danek and I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 16:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk, we're back. Robots, humans.

• 17:00Chuck Nice?

  What's the deal? What's the deal with robots? Robots and humans.

• 17:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've got Kate from Cambridge helping us out here.

• 17:13Chuck Nice?

  Right on.

• 17:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, so we last left off.

• 17:19Chuck Nice?

  With David Bloom.

• 17:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  David Bloom.

• 17:21Chuck Nice?

  Who wanted to know-

• 17:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he taught you how to pronounce his name.

• 17:23Chuck Nice?

  Yes, he did. And basically, a quick recap. We think of robots as humanoid, two arms, two legs, but we know that we have things like vending machines, self-driving cars, responding cars. Are these considered robots? What defines a robot? And does AI have to be involved?

• 17:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, David. So, one of my pet peeves is if you do a Google image search for "robot", you get almost only humanoid robots, right? Like he describes them. A head, a torso, two arms, two legs. Are you doing it right now?

• 17:54Chuck Nice?

  I'm doing it right now as you speak.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  He's Googling.

• 17:56Chuck Nice?

  I'm doing it. I'm just gonna put in "robots", R-O-B-O-T-S.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Because a lot of people immediately think of the humanoid robot, but he's absolutely right. There are many, many, many different forms of robots out there, and I do think that the definition of "robot" already does include those.

• 18:12Chuck Nice?

  You are absolutely right. There's not one image here of just a machine.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  It all, they have eyes, even faces.

• 18:18Chuck Nice?

  It's all, they all have, they're all humanoids. And, okay, so all the way down at the bottom of the page, here's your first one without a face.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  But that even has like, it's standing on two legs.

• 18:29Chuck Nice?

  It's standing on two legs, but I'm just saying, it's, you gotta go all the way down and then all you get is like, one without a face.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:34Chuck Nice?

  But it's still a humanoid, so-

• 18:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So then, clearly you're losing this battle.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  I mean, I only just got started.

• 18:44Chuck Nice?

  Right on.

• 18:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kate throwing it down.

• 18:46Chuck Nice?

  Throwing down the gauntlet.

• 18:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kate Garland is on the case.

• 18:49Chuck Nice?

  All right, how do you think about that one? There's one, there you go, Kate. That's a robot dog.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Ooh, that cheetah.

• 18:53Chuck Nice?

  That's a cheetah, that's, I'm sorry.

• 18:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why are you sharing robots and the people on the thing, oh, I'm sorry. This is your own private show here?

• 18:59Chuck Nice?

  I gotta tell you, I forgot we were doing this show.

• 19:02Chuck Nice?

  Damn, Jack. Damn. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Wait, what was there?

• 19:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, the point is, anyone's first idea of a robot is humanoid.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and you have issues with this.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How are you gonna change it?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Um, by telling people that this comparison between robots and humans is something that we like to do, but it limits us. It limits us. Really, the potential of this technology is that we can create anything we want. We don't have to make it a human shape. People always say, "Oh, we need humanoid robots because we have a world that's built for humans, and we have doorknobs and stairs," but I'm also kinda like, "Yeah, maybe that's true in some cases, but robots could climb the walls, or we could make things wheelchair accessible and be able to have cheaper robots and have a better world for humans. Why do we need humanoids?"

• 19:53Chuck Nice?

  That's true.

• 19:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Chuck Nice?

  Right on. Even, you're right, even a manufacturer, and we call them robot arms, but no arm moves like those things. You know, no arm spins and twists and, you know, is, is, is opposable in every single direction, 360 degrees, but yet we still call it an arm, you know?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Why are we limiting our imagination?

• 20:13Chuck Nice?

  Right, okay. So what do you make something a robot? Is there a definition, a threshold?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  There's not a good definition.

• 20:23Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  But what a lot of roboticists use is the think, sense, act paradigm. So something that's a physical machine that can sense its environment, you know, somehow think about or make a decision about what it, what it sensed, and then act on its environment.

• 20:38Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 20:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right.

• 20:40Chuck Nice?

  Not bad.

• 20:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so a simple, one-task thing, you wouldn't call a robot? So, so, so for example, the coffee machine in the morning, you wouldn't call it a robot?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Not necessarily, not unless it's making some sort of decision on its own.

• 20:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, no, it's not. You're pushing a button and following, or you programmed it to make you coffee in the morning.

• 20:57Chuck Nice?

  But if it were able to make you to sense that you're in the room, right? And then determine whether or not it's Wednesday and you like cappuccino on Wednesday. It's Thursday, you like black coffee on Thursday, and then Friday, you like a cafe mocha, and it does that, now is that a robot?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  I would say probably yes.

• 21:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, not based on your definition, I don't agree. Because you just programmed it to do that. It'd be different, it'd be different if it read your mood in the morning. Oh, she needs a double dose.

• 21:29Chuck Nice?

  Oh, that's funny, yeah.

• 21:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then that's it, that is sensing an environment. What Chuck said is not sensing anything.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  But like, I think because of the facial recognition aspect of it, you could say arguably that's powered by AI. And that gets back to the question, which is, is AI involved in this? Yeah.

• 21:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I'm saying if it knew how much caffeine you needed in the morning, how, it talked to the alarm clock and said you hit snooze four times.

• 21:56Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 21:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know.

• 21:57Chuck Nice?

  Right. And it talks to the medicine cabinet and said, he got home at two and then took some aspirin, he's clearly been drinking.

• 22:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If it figured all that out.

• 22:05Chuck Nice?

  Figured all that out, that's right.

• 22:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is serious AI in your, in your situation.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, can I get that now? I would like that robot, please.

• 22:14Chuck Nice?

  Alright, cool. No, that's good stuff. Alright, here we go. Um, let's go to, oh my god, what a name is this? Uh, Pharaoh Mamuri, Mamuri. Okay, so, uh, it says, why do we project human emotions in machines and robots? So I think that's, that's, that's a great question, but that, does that really happen in real life?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:40Chuck Nice?

  Or, are we doing that now?

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, over eighty percent of people name their Roombas.

• 22:45Chuck Nice?

  Ech. That's disturbing.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Really?

• 22:49Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Why?

• 22:50Chuck Nice?

  Because it's a thing.

• 22:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's disturbing to you.

• 22:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, correct, I'm gonna.

• 22:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't make it absolute, that is disturbing.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  It's clearly not disturbing to most people, because they do it.

• 22:59Chuck Nice?

  Okay, I guess there's something wrong with me.

• 23:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's just.

• 23:04Chuck Nice?

  Let's, let's reassess Chuck now.

• 23:08Chuck Nice?

  Okay, but I mean, the thing of this is.

• 23:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But just for all was worth, uh, I have a Roomba gifted this past Christmas, and we haven't named it.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Really?

• 23:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nor is there any chance of that.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Really? That's so interesting.

• 23:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it, plus it's too noisy, it goes around, make it, and it's like, would you hurry up, please? I mean, I.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Are you supposed to run it when you're out of the home?

• 23:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I know, but still, I don't know, I don't trust it.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  You don't trust the machine.

• 23:33Chuck Nice?

  Honey, have you seen my earrings?

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 23:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It opens up a gate, it's got all your valuables. All silverware.

• 23:43Chuck Nice?

  It's hilarious.

• 23:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Roombas at a pawn shop the next day. Talking other roombas, what's your take for the night?

• 23:51Chuck Nice?

  That's hilarious.

• 23:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so, yeah, so I'm not among those who name my Roomba. But if 80% do, that's telling you something, right?

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and they even, so I was just visiting the company that makes them, and people will even send their Roomba in for repair, and they'll turn down the offer of a brand new replacement. They'll be like, "We want you to send Merrill Sweep back."

• 24:11Chuck Nice?

  Merrill Sweep, oh my goodness. Wow.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  That's a real, actual Roomba name, yeah.

• 24:17Chuck Nice?

  Is Curtis Blow amongst those as well?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  That should be, you should name your Roomba Curtis Blow.

• 24:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I don't know, I don't know. So, wait, so I misunderstood the question. It's not, our robots programmed to have human traits?

• 24:31Chuck Nice?

  No, yeah.

• 24:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that we imbue them with human traits?

• 24:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, he's saying, "Project, project."

• 24:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Project human traits.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  We absolutely do.

• 24:38Chuck Nice?

  Why do we project?

• 24:39Speaker 02

  And why, so the why is interesting. So, there's a couple of different reasons I think we do this. First is, science fiction and pop culture really primes us to want to personify robots.

• 24:48Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Second is...

• 24:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And NASA does that too with our rovers.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  First, they're named, and then they, they each have like a Twitter handle.

• 24:55Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, and they like...

• 24:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I got stuck on my thing, they're using first-person narrative.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  They play themselves a birthday song on their birthday, yeah, all kinds of stuff like that. We, everyone does it, like, we love doing this with robots. But then there's something deeper biological about it too, because robots are these physical, moving things that kind of tap into this instinct we have to separate things into objects and agents. And so if something's moving around autonomously, we will automatically project intent onto it. And so a lot of people treat robots subconsciously like living things, even something as simple as the Roomba. And then, if you design them with like the faces and the arms and the legs, as we were talking about, then even more so.

• 25:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is this any different from... imbuing stuffed animals with, I mean, we, we, don't we do that with almost everything?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  So it's, yeah, so we do.

• 25:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We name our cars.

• 25:47Chuck Nice?

  People do name cars.

• 25:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Even before cars had any kind of technology in them at all.

• 25:51Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  We anthropomorphize everything, and this is just that on steroids, because you add to that the movement, you add to that the fact that we can program robots to mimic social cues, whereas stuffed animals are only our imagination, right?

• 26:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, unless it's Ted.

• 26:06Chuck Nice?

  All right, well, just stay right there in that exact space, because the geekiest one from Instagram, uh, says, uh, um, Kate, in your paper, Who's Johnny?, you mentioned the effects of anthropomorphism of robots.

• 26:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a paper we all should have read.

• 26:23Chuck Nice?

  There, well, apparently Kate wrote a paper, and the geekiest one actually read it.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  I didn't know anyone was gonna read that.

• 26:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got people, you don't know who our people, we got people, okay?

• 26:33Chuck Nice?

  So, yeah, they went out and did some homework real quick.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  I hope, I hope there are no typos.

• 26:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Fill us in on that when, after this question gets asked.

• 26:39Chuck Nice?

  And then this is what the geekiest one, the geekiest one says, um, hey, in your paper, Who's Johnny?, you mentioned the effects of anthropomorphism of robots within the social world. Uh, will we see robots being capable of offering support benefits in the form of emotional support animals? Very cool question.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Very cool, because he read my work, yeah. That's the coolest part, or she, like, was it, do we, we don't have a name?

• 27:07Chuck Nice?

  The geekiest one.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  The geekiest one could be he or she.

• 27:09Chuck Nice?

  It could be anybody.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Um, yes, so.

• 27:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And maybe it's not even binary.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't know.

• 27:15Chuck Nice?

  That's right, exactly.

• 27:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so tell us about that paper.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so the paper, uh, oh, it got published years ago, this is, um.

• 27:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is there a journal for this?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Uh, it's, it's online on SSRN, which is kind of a pre-publication site, so anyone can download it, but it's also a book chapter in Robot Ethics 2.0, which is a collection of. Of work.

• 27:38Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Uh, so the paper looks at this tendency we have to treat robots like they're alive, even though we know that they're just machines. And looks at, you know, which cases might that be something that is good? And which cases might that be something that's bad? And is there anything we can do about it? Um, and I can't remember if I talk about, uh, therapy animals in that paper, but we're already seeing robots being used as a replacement for therapy animals. For example, like the Paro baby seal robot. It's used with dementia patients. It's really cute and furry and like, um, so I, I think that it's, it's already an application. That was the question, right?

• 28:18Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Whether that's a possibility.

• 28:19Chuck Nice?

  Will it happen?

• 28:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so.

• 28:21Chuck Nice?

  And you're saying it is happening?

• 28:22Speaker 02

  It is happening.

• 28:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, so there's, there might be a difference between a robot that can do this emotionally and a robot that looks like you want to cuddle with it. Right?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 28:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you gonna make a cube that has emotions? No.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I bet Pixar could.

• 28:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Huh, huh. It would need eyebrows and teeth or something.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  We'd need something.

• 28:42Chuck Nice?

  They make a lamp cute.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the hopping lamp.

• 28:46Chuck Nice?

  The hopping lamp, I mean, yeah.

• 28:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The squeaky hopping lamp. So, so I guess what I'm asking is, what is the variable here? Is it that they can imbue it with emotions? Program it with emotions or that it is something that looks like you want to spend, you want to get close to?

• 29:03Speaker 02

  It's, it's both. Like the seal doesn't do much. The seal makes these little sounds and movements and responds to your touch. That's all it does. But just those little cues are enough to make people project onto it.

• 29:14Chuck Nice?

  Right. And so you're giving it love.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:17Chuck Nice?

  Basically.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Kind of like a cat. It doesn't love you back.

• 29:19Chuck Nice?

  Right. Okay. So now, now.

• 29:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cat's a good, cat's a good room.

• 29:24Chuck Nice?

  Kind of like a cat just doesn't love you back. That's funny. My cat loved me, Kate. Thank you very much.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Everyone thinks that.

• 29:31Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God. Now I'm even worse.

• 29:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, just let that one go.

• 29:37Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, just let it go. I'm fighting a losing battle here.

• 29:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you know she's right. In your heart, you know Kate is right. Let that one go.

• 29:45Chuck Nice?

  All right, so, um, well, with respect to the cube then.

• 29:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cube versus some animal.

• 29:51Chuck Nice?

  Cube versus some animal, what Neil, in Neil's, um, um, uh, example. If the cube were to establish, let's say, a relationship with you early where it's giving you love, would that then create an emotional support dependency?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  It could. I mean, it's hard to make a cube kind of mimic the emotional cues that we recognize, but again, animators can do it, so we should be able to do it with cubes or robots.

• 30:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and we, and what's the movie, Her?

• 30:21Chuck Nice?

  Her, right.

• 30:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was not an animal.

• 30:22Chuck Nice?

  That's not an animal.

• 30:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  It was Scarlett Johansson, basically.

• 30:28Chuck Nice?

  You know what? You're winning every argument.

• 30:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, yeah. Damn, Chuck, we just.

• 30:33Chuck Nice?

  We're getting housed.

• 30:38Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 30:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, yeah, and Scarlett, but the, the object was not the thing. It was the voice and the personality.

• 30:45Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of the Siri character.

• 30:47Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 30:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 30:48Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 30:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it could, that means it could be a cube.

• 30:49Chuck Nice?

  It could be a cube.

• 30:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like you said, especially in the hands of Pixar animators, yeah.

• 30:53Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. This is, uh, let's go back to Patreon. This is Sheri Lynn, S K. She says, hi, Dr. Tyson and Dr. Darling. Empirical studies show long-term friends slash partners mimic each other's body language, emotions, speech, and other behavioral characteristics. If a robot is protected under intellectual property law and I hang out with it long enough to unconsciously mimic or imitate the robot's speech patterns or attitude, would I be violating IP law because I am copying parts of the robot? Sheri.

• 31:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whoa.

• 31:22Chuck Nice?

  Get a life! Sheri, who the hell cares?

• 31:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know that was a good question, Chuck.

• 31:28Chuck Nice?

  That's a damn good question.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  That took a turn. I was not expecting.

• 31:31Chuck Nice?

  No, no, she, no, no. Sheri, that was amazing. Anyway.

• 31:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Chuck Nice?

  So let's.

• 31:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Intellectual property.

• 31:37Chuck Nice?

  Forget that. Let's go a little bit further. Let's say I have a personality disorder that causes me to adopt, like, that, it's not a good thing. I adopt your personality. I hang around you and then I become that robot. Would, would I then be in violation?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 31:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is it in order for property theft?

• 31:59Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  No, it's not. But if you had a robot that then hung out with other robots and started copying what they were doing because it's programmed to copy the behavior of those around them to emotionally connect with them, then then maybe you'll come closer.

• 32:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it's a commercial product?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  But probably not, yeah.

• 32:20Chuck Nice?

  That's very interesting, though, because you're saying like, let's say I designed a robot to take on the characteristics of other robots, like that X-Men character Rogue, right? And like, and then, but that makes me a better robot. But the only way I become that better robot is by stealing from these other robots. What then?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, what then? And then if you're like stealing code, then you might also be violating copyright. Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, there, there are fortunately people working on this, not me, who look at IP issues with AI and, you know, what happens if an AI generates artwork that's based on other artwork? You know, who owns the, who owns that? Um, so it, there are some really interesting questions that are popping up.

• 33:04Chuck Nice?

  Okay, cool. All right, uh, how about Daniel Ferrante? And Daniel Ferrante from Facebook says, "I've seen videos of people kicking delivery robot vehicles. What does this communicate about people? Is it bad to punch a machine?" Not if it took your money.

• 33:23Chuck Nice?

  I'm just, I'm just saying before we, but, or is this a sign?

• 33:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck's rules.

• 33:28Chuck Nice?

  I know. As I read the rest of his question, I'm like, let me slip this in here real quick. He says, "Is it a sign of sociopathy? Or is it a sort of resistance against, uh, automating jobs and all of the other things that these machines represent?"

• 33:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Fight back.

• 33:44Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll get to that question after the break when we return on StarTalk.

• 34:05Chuck Nice?

  Time to give a Patreon shout out to the following Patreon patrons, Rusty Faircloth and Jaclyn Mashak. Thank you so much for being the gravity assist that helps us make our way across the cosmos. And if you would like your very own Patreon shout out, go to patreon.com/startalkradio and support us.

• 34:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. Startalk. Robots and humans. I've got Kate Garland. Kate, welcome. Welcome to the universe.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. I didn't realize you were welcoming people to the universe.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, to this part of the universe.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is where we... And Chuck, you've been reading questions?

• 34:53Chuck Nice?

  Yes, we have.

• 34:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we left off.

• 34:55Chuck Nice?

  Yes, we did.

• 34:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We last left off. And...

• 34:58Chuck Nice?

  I love when you say that. "We last left off." "Our hero was dangling above a ravine."

• 35:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck was trying to pronounce a name.

• 35:08Chuck Nice?

  Ah, that's hilarious.

• 35:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's check back in with him to see if he's gotten there yet.

• 35:12Chuck Nice?

  There we go. So Daniel Ferrante from Facebook said, "I've seen these videos where people are kicking delivery robots. What does this communicate about people? Is it bad to punch a machine? Or is this a sign of sociopathy? Or is it a sort of resistance against the automation of society?"

• 35:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Resistance to the rise of machines.

• 35:28Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 35:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what is sociopathy? What is that?

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Why are you asking me and not him?

• 35:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because they rolled off the question like it was a soci...

• 35:39Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, I mean, he means, are you a sociopath if you take a robot?

• 35:43Chuck Nice?

  Isn't it a form of being a sociopath?

• 35:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I got it. I got it. Sorry. Okay.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  I assume that's what it is.

• 35:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

• 35:49Chuck Nice?

  And like I said, unless the machine took your money. I mean, you know, then...

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, but I think you make a really good point. Like, if a person takes your money, you can, it's probably justified to punch them and you're not a sociopath for doing that.

• 36:01Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  And so there are a lot of people who are, like, justifiably angry or, like, reasonably angry about the robotics that's being deployed in Silicon Valley right now and in the Bay Area. There's a lot of, like... These delivery robots, there's also the scooters that are just everywhere on the sidewalk. There's security robots in parking lots. People don't like the fact that they're being watched and that they have no control over how this technology gets deployed. And, you know, it's a little bit interesting to see people's ire get directed at the robots, which I think might also be a form of anthropomorphism, of us treating the robots like a thing with agency.

• 36:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In fact, we're the ones who invented the robots.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the people deploying them aren't the robots themselves, right? So instead of, you know, destroying the robot, you should probably go after the company that deployed it, but...

• 36:56Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and those were the opinions of Kate Darling.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Smash capitalism.

• 37:02Chuck Nice?

  All right, well, that makes sense in many ways. Here we go, this is Eli, or Ellie. No, it's Eli. Okay, there we go.

• 37:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  One L or two Ls?

• 37:16Chuck Nice?

  It's just one L.

• 37:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's call it Eli, yeah.

• 37:18Chuck Nice?

  Neil, you often talk about a day when AI will realize that they don't need humans, and in fact, humans are detrimental to their survival. We are destroying the planet, as an example. So, do they do away with us? Some people like to suggest that free-feeding your dog... Wait, wait, where's he going with this? I'm sorry. Some people suggest not free-feeding your dog so it knows or depends on you is how to keep AI dependent on humans, so robots don't kill us.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  I'm really glad that that is directed at you.

• 37:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it means don't make robots self-sufficient?

• 38:00Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 38:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 38:02Chuck Nice?

  So you're building in a dependency.

• 38:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they need us. Oh, and that way, they can't kill us off. Because they need us to survive.

• 38:08Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 38:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's an insurance policy.

• 38:10Chuck Nice?

  An insurance policy. Do you agree with that? Do you think that we should do that?

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Why do we assume that if the robots take over, that they'll get rid of us?

• 38:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because they might have, they might evolve a higher moral code than we can ever even imagine.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  But if it's a higher moral code, like, do you really think that's gonna involve just getting rid of us?

• 38:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kinda.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  I mean... I don't know, that seems like a very like human dominance way to think about it.

• 38:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, so Chuck, could you repeat that question and do it in like a third of the time?

• 38:36Chuck Nice?

  A third of a time, I know, it took me a long time to get there. Alright, so look at it this way.

• 38:42Chuck Nice?

  All life on the planet is equal, alright? Human beings are not special because all life is equal. The robots-

• 38:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're creating a scenario.

• 38:49Chuck Nice?

  I'm creating, creating a scenario. The robots or AI actually determine this, but then determine that we are killing the planet. In order to save the planet and all other life, they've gotta get rid of us.

• 39:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's in the greater interest-

• 39:02Chuck Nice?

  It's in the greater interest-

• 39:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The interest of the many.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Why would they have to get rid of us instead of diverting us to something like that we like to do instead of destroying the planet?

• 39:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Give us a distraction.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:13Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I see what you're saying.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  I mean, there's just so many other ways. They wouldn't have to just kill us all, right?

• 39:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, they don't have to, so here's what you're saying, instead of kill us, just give us something else to do.

• 39:22Chuck Nice?

  Like casinos.

• 39:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, casinos.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Maybe it's already happening.

• 39:32Chuck Nice?

  Alright.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Facebook.

• 39:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The rise of casinos and Facebook is the machine.

• 39:38Chuck Nice?

  That's the machines doing their thing.

• 39:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Man.

• 39:40Chuck Nice?

  Alright, alright, cool, cool, cool, cool, alright.

• 39:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Freaking us out, Kate.

• 39:45Chuck Nice?

  This is Leopia, uh, from Facebook. What kinds of, I'm sorry, I just love Leopia. Uh, what kinds of jobs slash tasks, if any, do you think would ever be able to be automated?

• 40:01Chuck Nice?

  That have, that have not as of yet?

• 40:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, good one.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Well, robots are really good at doing specific things, so single tasks. That's why we have a robot vacuum cleaner, it can vacuum, right? But things that are more complicated, that require context and concepts are a little harder for a machine. So I think anything that is really easy, simple and well-defined should be able to be automated.

• 40:27Chuck Nice?

  So now, do you also see kind of like an automated interface? So for instance, um, there's no human being that could be as steady with a scalpel or a laser-

• 40:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As a machine.

• 40:39Chuck Nice?

  Than a machine. So a pre-programmed surgery, so I am the surgeon, I program the surgery, and then the robot actually does the surgery.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Don't we already have that?

• 40:48Chuck Nice?

  Do we? I don't know.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure we do.

• 40:51Chuck Nice?

  I'm not sure if we do, I don't know.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  I just assumed-

• 40:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, but they had it in the movie Prometheus.

• 40:56Chuck Nice?

  Oh, you're right. Maybe that's, maybe that's what I'm seeing in my head. Maybe that's what I'm seeing in my head.

• 41:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So there are these pods, and, and you can dial up what opera, what surgery you want.

• 41:07Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 41:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then you go in, and then it disinfects it, it opens it up.

• 41:11Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 41:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Pad it down.

• 41:12Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 41:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A laser cuts, it opens it up, does a thing, it stitches you back, and then you're...

• 41:17Chuck Nice?

  Right, but it's all done by a robot.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  I mean, some of this is already happening.

• 41:21Chuck Nice?

  Some of this is happening.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:22Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 41:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, so did you, did you see Prometheus?

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, a long time ago.

• 41:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I guess it didn't come out that long. It feels like it was a long time ago.

• 41:30Chuck Nice?

  It does feel like a long time ago.

• 41:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, so, is, I think it's my single favorite scene in all of movies.

• 41:36Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 41:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where she goes up to it, she's gotta get the alien out of her womb.

• 41:39Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 41:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the female pod is damaged.

• 41:44Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 41:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because the female part has, has an abortion setting. So that, okay, so she has to go into the male pod, and she takes it off of automation mode.

• 41:57Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because there's the normal surgery that would happen if you're male, so she has to program it in from scratch. Surgery, what region? Lower abdomen. Bad, bad, this, so it's, it's, what kind of surgery? Cesarean. Where, where, into the, so she, it was a brilliant scene.

• 42:13Chuck Nice?

  It's a very well done scene.

• 42:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the alien is getting more alive in her, so anyhow, so that would, why'd I even go there?

• 42:20Chuck Nice?

  Well, that's, that's what, basically, this person, you know, we were talking about whether or not, you know, a programmable interface between robots and human beings, so we, we put in the task, they carry out the task, but those tasks would change.

• 42:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, so, so...

• 42:32Chuck Nice?

  So it's not a single task, the tasks would change.

• 42:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gotcha, so let me turn that into a question. So, uh, your appendix removed, do we really need doctors for that? As routine as that surgery is.

• 42:42Chuck Nice?

  Right, or tonsils.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  They don't even remove tonsils anymore, do they? And even the appendix, my husband had appendicitis, and they're like, "We're not taking it out, we're just giving you antibiotics."

• 42:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he's now dead.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  That would be a mistake.

• 42:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You slipped him a 20.

• 43:02Chuck Nice?

  Sorry, we're gonna leave your birth dependents in.

• 43:05Chuck Nice?

  Ah, don't worry, you'll be fine. You'll be just fine. Your wife told us that.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Dang, we're gonna have to cut all this out.

• 43:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But so, so...

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Okay, I didn't answer the question.

• 43:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, what? I just wanna know about your husband. What? Why didn't they take it out?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Because nowadays, they're like, "Well..." Some, in some cases, we know that antibiotics can like, clean that up and we won't actually take it out 'cause taking it out turns out to be riskier than leaving it in.

• 43:33Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha, okay.

• 43:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Under antibiotics.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  But that said, like, yes, robots can help take things out, like, that, that seems like a really great use and, and I know it's being worked on.

• 43:43Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 43:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right.

• 43:45Chuck Nice?

  All right, how about Brandon Vialli says this from Facebook. "Have Isaac Asimov's three laws of robotics aged well?"

• 43:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nice, good question.

• 43:55Chuck Nice?

  "Do they still have an influence on how robots are programmed today?" What a great question.

• 44:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  That is a good question. So, I think the thing that a lot of people forget is that most of Asimov's stories were about how the laws don't work and, in that sense, they've aged really well. Because I don't think we've solved machine ethics.

• 44:18Chuck Nice?

  So encouraging. Wow. Damn, that's scary. Okay, okay.

• 44:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So just remind me, a couple of more important of those laws. Was there only three? I thought there might have been five.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  There was a fourth that got introduced later.

• 44:32Chuck Nice?

  The most important, of course, is never do harm to a human.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Is that the most important?

• 44:36Chuck Nice?

  That is. You know why?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Why?

• 44:38Chuck Nice?

  I am human.

• 44:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But she asked you very honestly, quizzically, "Really? Why, why would you think that?"

• 44:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and one of them is, "Don't do anything that disobeys the other law," or something?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a hierarchy of the laws.

• 44:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nested, they're nested.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  But then, when you get into the details of like, what can happen in practice, it turns out to be a little more messy than just...

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Program three laws.

• 45:07Chuck Nice?

  That was kinda like the Will Smith movie about the iRobot, thank you.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:10Chuck Nice?

  That was the name of that.

• 45:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which is an Azagazimov story.

• 45:12Chuck Nice?

  That's correct, right. And so like that's, that was the whole idea was basically this one robot that violated all the rules.

• 45:22Chuck Nice?

  Alright, cool. So your answer, sir, is we're all gonna die.

• 45:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do we have time for one more?

• 45:29Chuck Nice?

  Okay, one more. Okay, here we go. Alright. Eddie Organista says this. Would the advent of robotic servitude or companionship in our daily lives cause us to evolve in an unexpected way? Ooh, this guy's getting deep. I love it. For instance, would our bodies evolve to be less, you know, robust?

• 45:55Chuck Nice?

  With more energy for our brains, thus bigger brains? Or would our brains basically rot instead? I love it.

• 46:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I gotta, I gotta jump in there because there's, that is not an accurate understanding of how biology works.

• 46:10Chuck Nice?

  Ooh.

• 46:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or evolution. So just because you don't use something doesn't mean it's just gonna go away. It's the, it's, you have to, there has to be something about you that prevents you from breeding.

• 46:22Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 46:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay? So if you have a computer and you're not developing your own mind, if that makes you less of an attractive breeding partner? Yeah, your kind will disappear. Okay? So it has to have an effect on how you breed.

• 46:38Chuck Nice?

  It's all about furthering.

• 46:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not just, oh, one day we'll have big heads.

• 46:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 46:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  First you have to birth the head.

• 46:44Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 46:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, that's hard.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yes, it's very hard.

• 46:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Firsthand knowledge here about birthing the head of a baby. Okay.

• 46:53Chuck Nice?

  The other two in the room will remain silent.

• 46:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, just as an example, um, there is, there's a discussion that the human head wanted to evolve to be even bigger. Because we were taking such advantage of our intellect. But it was killing the mothers.

• 47:09Chuck Nice?

  Is that so?

• 47:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and in fact, the first three months of the baby is outside of the womb.

• 47:14Chuck Nice?

  That's the...

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Basically should still be in the womb, but if we kept it in any longer...

• 47:18Chuck Nice?

  It would never... We could never come out.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It would never come out, right. So, so this was the backhand way to make that happen. So now the baby's on life support. You ever, you ever see other animals give birth?

• 47:28Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 47:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know?

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, they walk around.

• 47:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They walk around, they pop out.

• 47:32Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, they're just like, "All right, all right, just check it out." "I'm hungry."

• 47:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so I don't, so I don't think that's gonna work the way he's imagining.

• 47:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 47:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, your favorite robot, we learned,

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Wally.

• 47:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was Wally.

• 47:47Chuck Nice?

  Mommy.

• 47:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And in Wally, they have these characters who are big and, and...

• 47:52Speaker 02

  That's exactly what I thought of.

• 47:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Slovenly.

• 47:55Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 47:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then they're floating around, if I remember the movie.

• 47:58Chuck Nice?

  On floating chairs.

• 47:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 47:59Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 48:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that they, I don't want to call it evolved to that, but they became completely useless bodies.

• 48:07Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 48:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Relying on the, on the, on the robots.

• 48:10Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 48:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, why are you, you're...

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I'm just so excited because you started talking about Wally and I love that movie.

• 48:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 48:19Chuck Nice?

  And why is Wally your favorite robot?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  I think the design of the robots in that movie is really brilliant. Like, they are so... You just empathize with them so much without them needing to look humanoid.

• 48:33Chuck Nice?

  They're not human, but yet they still elicit empathy.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:37Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 48:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So these are clever illustrators and writers?

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's very good, very good.

• 48:42Chuck Nice?

  Cool, cool.

• 48:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so, so, so that question, I think it's not how that's gonna go.

• 48:47Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 48:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 48:48Chuck Nice?

  So you're saying just because we atrophy, doesn't mean that we'll continue to, that we'll birth atrophy people?

• 48:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I remember, I'm old enough to remember, when everything was controlled by buttons, people said, "Oh, the hu, the future of humans will have a big index finger."

• 49:01Chuck Nice?

  Big time.

• 49:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like, what?

• 49:04Chuck Nice?

  Everybody's walking around with a weird number one on their hand.

• 49:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's no evolutionary pressure to have a bigger finger to push a button. It's just not.

• 49:12Chuck Nice?

  That's an excellent.

• 49:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just think this through.

• 49:15Chuck Nice?

  There you go. You can't get a better example than that. That makes perfect sense.

• 49:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kate, we gotta end it here. Oh my gosh.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  This is so much fun.

• 49:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was great having you. Oh my gosh. Well, thanks for coming down from Cantabrigia.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  That's what I'm calling it from now on.

• 49:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think one who is from Cambridge is a Cantabrigian. I did not. I have no idea.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  I mean, me neither, and I am one, so.

• 49:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm pretty sure. Chuck, always good to have you. Always good to be here. And Kate, good luck. And it doesn't take luck, it takes hard work, but all that you do, we will need you more and more. Society will need you more and more as we go forward. So keep it going.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  We're all doomed.

• 49:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On that happy note, we're all gonna die. This has been StarTalk, and I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and as always, big news. Looking up.