Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast Cosmic Queries – Black Holes and Dark Energy Part II About this episode One episode wasn’t enough! Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Chuck Nice are back to answer more fan-submitted questions about black holes, dark energy, singularities, Hawking radiation, photons, and a lot more.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.
0:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is StarTalk. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and I'm with Chuck Nice, co-host.
0:20 Chuck Nice? That's right.
0:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Chuck, and we are recording live from my office at the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History, right here in New York City.
0:30 Chuck Nice? Better known as the Cosmic Crib.
0:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh, the crib. Welcome to the crib.
0:35 Chuck Nice? Welcome to the crib.
0:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was high currency when I was in college.
0:38 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
0:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I haven't heard anybody use it anymore.
0:39 Chuck Nice? No.
0:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
0:40 Chuck Nice? Nah, it's kind of a...
0:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's just very dated.
0:43 Chuck Nice? It's very dated.
0:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, but it still sounds cool, the crib.
0:46 Chuck Nice? It does, yo, what's up, man? I'm just chilling in my crib.
0:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? See, that works, that still works, that still works. For anybody over 50.
0:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, this is actually part two of Cosmic Queries we began last time.
0:58 Chuck Nice? That's right.
0:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because we had sufficient questions to populate two Cosmic Queries on black holes and dark energy.
1:04 Chuck Nice? People love it.
1:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know.
1:06 Chuck Nice? People want to know a lot about the dark energy and black holes.
1:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And since we don't know anything about dark energy, I want to know about it, too.
1:13 Chuck Nice? That's right.
1:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. Give it to me, what do you have?
1:16 Chuck Nice? All right, so, we are going to start with a Patreon patron.
1:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As is our habit.
1:22 Chuck Nice? Absolutely. So, uh, this is Chris Hampton, and he says, "Hey, Hawking radiation states that a black hole will eventually evaporate completely because it's releasing small amounts of energy slash mass over time. But wouldn't the black hole's consumption of matter overpower the radiation, making the black hole grow instead of evaporate?"
1:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, good. So, if you have an isolated black hole?
1:50 Chuck Nice? Right.
1:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's not consuming matter.
1:51 Chuck Nice? Right.
1:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's nobody dared to eat.
1:53 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
1:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You have to come embarrassingly too close to it for it to tidily distress you and capture you.
2:00 Chuck Nice? And now, now it's good, right.
2:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you have to be moving not too fast, otherwise you'll just whiz by.
2:04 Chuck Nice? Right.
2:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, the black holes are not some voracious vacuum cleaner that sucks up everything it sees.
2:09 Speaker 02 I'm so hungry!
2:10 Chuck Nice? Right. That's a tiny black hole. That's a little black hole.
2:14 Speaker 02 I'm so hungry!
2:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And the big black, I'm
2:18 Chuck Nice? Right, the super massive black holes are like, feed me.
2:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It is funny, this voice frequency thing. Like, you never have a high-frequency voice selling a truck.
2:28 Chuck Nice? Right, that's true. Which now, I wanna see Mike Tyson actually sell Dodge Rams, just like, you know. That's right, it's ram tough. Dodge Ram, okay?
2:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Cause he is a tough guy.
2:41 Chuck Nice? He's a tough guy.
2:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The question whether that will compensate for the voice.
2:45 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
2:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Plus, you know, the voice of God is never high pitch.
2:49 Chuck Nice? No, it's never just like, hey guys. Hey guys, I think I'm gonna smoke you today. Oh, see, now I wish Michael Jackson was alive to be the voice of God. You know, just like, you're very ignorant.
3:02 Chuck Nice? You're very ignorant, I don't like that.
3:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Stop it.
3:05 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
3:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'll send a tsunami.
3:06 Chuck Nice? That's not lying. Alright, okay, there you go. So, this information that
3:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
3:14 Chuck Nice? it consumes
3:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
3:16 Chuck Nice? if it's by itself
3:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? By itself, it'll just evaporate.
3:18 Chuck Nice? It just evaporates.
3:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Clearly, and as correctly surmised, if it has a food source
3:24 Chuck Nice? Right.
3:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? it's just gonna eat and the Hawkeye radiation will be insignificant
3:30 Chuck Nice? Right.
3:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? of a loss relative to what it's eating.
3:32 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
3:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But eventually, all black holes will have eaten anything they can eat
3:37 Chuck Nice? Right.
3:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? in their refrigerator. At that point, then it'll slowly start evaporating. At a higher rate than it was gaining mass.
3:47 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
3:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that's how that plays out.
3:49 Chuck Nice? And the evaporation, though,
3:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
3:52 Chuck Nice? if nothing can escape, what is actually evaporating?
3:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Good question.
3:56 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
3:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Very nice.
3:57 Chuck Nice? Yes.
3:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Evaporation is, we're using the term loosely here.
4:00 Chuck Nice? Okay.
4:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so, what's actually happening, and it's brilliant, it's just, it's beautiful.
4:06 Chuck Nice? Okay. I have to say, it's beautiful.
4:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's beautiful.
4:11 Chuck Nice? It's beautiful.
4:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, what's going on is, the gravitational field in the vicinity of a black hole
4:19 Chuck Nice? Okay.
4:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? is so intense
4:21 Chuck Nice? Right.
4:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? that it will spontaneously create matter.
4:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Holy crap. So the energy density, cause E equals mc squared. Uh huh. If I have matter, I can turn it into energy. That's what nuclear bombs do. Right. But if I have energy, I can turn it into matter. Right. The energy density in the field of black holes is so intense, right outside the event horizon, outside the event horizon, it will create particles. Wow. Out of the gravitational energy density of the field. Now watch, here's the, here's the spooky part. Okay. Okay? These particles were not inside the event horizon. They're created outside the event horizon. Right.
5:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, now watch what happens. When anytime you make particles from energy, you make two particles. Every time. Okay. Uh, matter and antimatter pair. Wow. I don't know if you knew that. Oh. Yeah, okay? And they will travel in the exact opposite directions from each other. Gotcha. That means one escapes, the other goes right back on in. Right. Okay? So, but the one that escapes, escapes forever. Right. If you measure the mass of the black hole, it is now less by the mass of that one particle that escaped. Even though these particles were created in the gravity field of the black hole itself. Nice. So it's giving of itself just from the energy density of the gravitational field. It's, it's, it's really a remarkable fact. That is remarkable.
5:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right. Wow. Yes, and so Hawking figured this out, okay? And then concluded, if this keeps up, the whole black hole is gone. Right, at some point. Right. Right. Right. That's amazing. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's- And in fact, the smaller the black hole, the faster it will radiate. Gotcha. Okay? It's a surface area thing. Ah, here we go. Ah, surface area alert. Because we have a whole show on surface area. Uh, it's, so, um, the larger the object, if it, let's say it's a sphere, the larger the object, the less surface area it has relative to the volume. Right. Okay? And the smaller you are, the more is your surface area relative to your volume. This is why-
6:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Children and babies should not spend too long in the hot tub.
6:42 Chuck Nice? Right.
6:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because their connection to the hot environment is way more devastating to their body than it is if you're bigger.
6:49 Chuck Nice? Right.
6:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's all. So, as the black hole gets smaller and smaller, the rate of evaporation increases. Because its surface area gets larger and larger compared to the volume that's inside of it.
6:58 Chuck Nice? Wow.
6:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Surface area of the event horizon. And the intensity of the energy goes up. And so its very last gasp is a pulse of light of the highest known energy. Which are gamma rays.
7:11 Chuck Nice? Wow.
7:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
7:13 Chuck Nice? That's pretty cool.
7:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, the original paper written by Hawking talked about bursts of gamma rays in the universe. From black holes evaporating in their very last gasp. And then we saw gamma rays in the universe with a telescope after the data were declassified. We had a telescope launched in the early 70s, trust but verify, right? Oh, let's sign the test ban treaty, no nuclear tests, uh, in the atmosphere, anywhere else. We said, okay, Rus- Ruskeys, but we're gonna put up a satellite that'll look for gamma rays just in case you don't fulfill the, the treaty. And we started detecting gamma, like, every day. They said, can we get some ground truth on this? Checked, are there satellites? No explosions anywhere.
7:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A whole brand new field of astrophysics was pried open by accident because we're trying to verify.
8:03 Chuck Nice? Because we don't trust the Russians.
8:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because we don't trust the Russians.
8:06 Chuck Nice? And I don't know why we wouldn't trust the Russians. They're such good people, I wanna be friends with them.
8:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Good people all around.
8:13 Chuck Nice? That's right.
8:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, so, those gamma ray bursts, are they these black holes? No, because you can look at the properties and it's not.
8:22 Chuck Nice? Right.
8:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
8:23 Chuck Nice? Fascinating.
8:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
8:25 Chuck Nice? Man, thank you. Hey, hey, Chris, thank you for that. That was really a nice trip, man. I love it. Okay. All right.
8:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is it also Patreon?
8:33 Chuck Nice? Yes, these are, I, I cut them down so they're easier for me to keep in order and, you know, that way.
8:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so this is your second Patreon question?
8:39 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
8:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, good.
8:40 Chuck Nice? Oh, no, no, this is just regular questions.
8:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, no, there's a Patreon, right, right, there it is. It's, it's color coded. This one. No, not that one.
8:47 Chuck Nice? Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm.
8:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There.
8:52 Chuck Nice? Okay.
8:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
8:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. Get that one.
8:56 Chuck Nice? All right.
8:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just pick it up. Well, here we go. All right. All right, here we go. All right, next Patreon question, go.
9:01 Chuck Nice? All right, there we go. This is from Oak Steel's Funny Fake One. Okay, you're just screwing with me. I know that now. All right. I don't think I have a proper question here. I don't have a proper name either. Uh...
9:17 Chuck Nice? Can you please...
9:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Chuck is making people feel good.
9:20 Chuck Nice? But can you tell me about the singularity of a black hole? Like, whatever you know about it, thanks in advance. Um, okay, there you go.
9:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I'll tell you what we know.
9:32 Chuck Nice? At the center of a black hole is supposedly a singularity?
9:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I'll tell you what we know.
9:35 Chuck Nice? Go ahead.
9:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. Uh, the collapse of a thing to a black hole, we take it to a black hole because there's no known force in the, uh, to us, in the universe, that would prevent it.
9:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And if you do the math, the gravity is so severe that it will collapse to get denser and denser and denser until it is infinitely small, which would make it infinitely dense.
10:05 Chuck Nice? Correct.
10:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because density is mass divided by a volume, uh, grams per cubic centimeter.
10:13 Chuck Nice? Right.
10:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay? Pounds per cubic foot. These are statements of density. So if you have a certain amount of mass and the volume goes to zero, what happens if you divide by zero?
10:29 Chuck Nice? Well, you get an error on my, on my calculator.
10:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. Before you get to zero, the numbers get astronomically large.
10:37 Chuck Nice? Right.
10:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it actually gets to infinity. So it is infinitely dense and... So can you even have that in nature, is the question?
10:46 Chuck Nice? Wow.
10:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We don't know.
10:47 Chuck Nice? Right.
10:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But invoking only Einstein's general theory of relativity...
10:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You get a point of infinite density.
10:56 Chuck Nice? Right.
10:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? String theorists came along and said, "We got this." It's not infinite density, there's strings and there's another thing going on in the universe. That's why you bring in string theorists. Okay, you ring the bell, they come in and say, "We got this." You needed extra physics on top of general relativity to understand the singularity. And once you did that, they say, "Hey, this is good to us, let's think about the singularity that began the universe itself."
11:19 Chuck Nice? Hmm.
11:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The Big Bang singularity.
11:21 Chuck Nice? Right.
11:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So this gives you access to previously mysterious elements, taking Einstein's theories to their limits. So, if there's no singularity, there could be something else, but according to Einstein, that's what you get.
11:36 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
11:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, but we're admitting that Einstein's theory is incomplete at the singularity. We're waiting for a bigger theory to come along to replace it.
11:43 Chuck Nice? Right. Okay, that's pretty fascinating stuff, man.
11:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
11:47 Chuck Nice? I just love it, because, yeah, that makes sense, it's like, there's a single point.
11:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And how do you even wrap your head around it?
11:53 Chuck Nice? How do you wrap it, right?
11:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
11:54 Chuck Nice? Yeah, it's, that's pretty wild.
11:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're awaiting some new physics, or we gotta successfully wrap our head around something infinitely small and infinitely dense.
12:01 Chuck Nice? See, so what, what, see, I, I get the infinitely small, infinitely dense, I mean, you know, I, I see.
12:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And that's at the center of the black hole.
12:09 Chuck Nice? That's at the center of the black hole, and so if you, if you.
12:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, if the black hole's rotating?
12:12 Chuck Nice? Right.
12:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Then, it's not a singular, it's a donut.
12:16 Chuck Nice? Ah, a ringularity.
12:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A ring, woo!
12:18 Chuck Nice? Nice.
12:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I like that word.
12:19 Chuck Nice? I learned it from my son, I gotta be honest.
12:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? He said ringularity?
12:22 Chuck Nice? Yes.
12:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? He came up with that word?
12:23 Chuck Nice? I don't think he came up with it, but that's what he told me it was, and I told him that it's not a ringularity. I said, "It's a singularity," and then, he went to Jan Levin, and she said, "Yes, it's a ringularity."
12:35 Chuck Nice? I was like, "I hate you, boy."
12:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is this the one that wants to start an astrophysics club?
12:42 Chuck Nice? Yes.
12:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In his middle school?
12:43 Chuck Nice? In his middle school, yes.
12:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And not a comedy club?
12:44 Chuck Nice? Not a comedy, thank you, Jesus.
12:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Man, he just, is that a burn?
12:48 Chuck Nice? I don't care, I'm just happy that he does not wanna go down this path.
12:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This path?
12:53 Chuck Nice? Yes, I'm serious, be an astrophysicist and write some books and take care of your father. That's what I'm saying.
12:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That you want him to do with you?
13:00 Chuck Nice? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, uh.
13:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
13:04 Chuck Nice? But anyway, yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool.
13:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is messy, I have a better idea.
13:07 Chuck Nice? For what, the, my strips? Okay, you're taking all these papers.
13:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You hold, hold on.
13:12 Chuck Nice? I'll hold the papers.
13:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, I have a black bag here.
13:15 Chuck Nice? These are all my questions.
13:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is actually, this is an actual black hole.
13:18 Chuck Nice? Okay.
13:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, because, first it says it.
13:20 Chuck Nice? It says a bag.
13:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I got all kinds of stuff in my office.
13:24 Chuck Nice? Oh, that's hilarious.
13:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And as all black holes.
13:27 Chuck Nice? It's a black bag.
13:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, and as all black holes do, they'll watch you as you fall in.
13:34 Chuck Nice? Oh, that's hilarious.
13:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so this is my black hole bag.
13:36 Chuck Nice? This is a black hole bag.
13:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's got drawstring, okay, so put them in here.
13:40 Chuck Nice? Okay, I'm putting all the bags, and now I'll just pull them out. Oh, now, listen, listen, you get your, you get your question answered.
13:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? At random, okay, go on, go on.
13:49 Chuck Nice? Okay, I'm going in, wait a minute, I can't stop. Ah!
14:01 Chuck Nice? I just fell in a black hole.
14:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You know, I did an experiment with what was inside of here.
14:05 Chuck Nice? Oh, okay.
14:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You just did that experiment.
14:06 Chuck Nice? Exactly, all right, here we go.
14:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right.
14:08 Chuck Nice? All right, wow. Here we go. Chris Wakefield wants to know this. Hi, it's Chris, it's a philosophy question. Since every galaxy we observe so far has had a supermassive black hole at the center of it, and theoretically a black hole could be turned into a wormhole, what if they were used as save points like in a video game across space and time for a creator of sorts to get across galaxies more quickly to create what we know as space? Just a weird thought I had. All right, so Chris, number one, please give me the number of your weed dealer. That is the first thing I would like. Cause this is some good stuff. All right, so anyway.
14:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, I think what he wants is, because black holes and wormholes are related and may be related.
14:57 Chuck Nice? Okay.
14:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And he wants to know whether there's some, I might be exaggerating his question.
15:04 Chuck Nice? Okay.
15:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whether there's some intergalactic highway system.
15:07 Chuck Nice? Yes.
15:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That connects one galaxy to another.
15:10 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
15:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Across the universe.
15:12 Chuck Nice? Right.
15:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Through these black holes.
15:13 Chuck Nice? Through these black holes. In other words, like, it's, you know, kinda like, uh, what's that, what's that city? Milwaukee, where they have the.
15:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, no, no, no, no, it's not Milwaukee, you're talking about.
15:22 Chuck Nice? Minnesota.
15:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's, it's, it's.
15:24 Chuck Nice? What, what city is that?
15:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Minnesota's the name of the state.
15:26 Chuck Nice? Yeah, I'm saying, but it's in Minnesota.
15:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Minneapolis.
15:28 Chuck Nice? Minneapolis, that's what I'm trying to think of.
15:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So Minneapolis.
15:31 Chuck Nice? They have, they have, you walk, you walk, you never have to go outside.
15:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I mean, when it's forty below.
15:35 Chuck Nice? It's really cold.
15:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? When it's forty below.
15:37 Chuck Nice? You just walk between buildings.
15:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right, and there's Skyway News, it's called Skyway, I think it's called Skyway.
15:42 Chuck Nice? I think it is called Skyway.
15:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And to me, when the first time I saw it, it, it looked like an ant farm.
15:46 Chuck Nice? Oh, that's funny. The human habit trail.
15:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, I didn't want to, I, I, I felt uncomfortable in that. I said, this is some, we're, we are in someone's zoo.
15:55 Chuck Nice? Protect the queen!
15:59 Chuck Nice? Protect the queen!
16:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, so each, buildings are connected, so you never have to go outside.
16:03 Chuck Nice? Yeah, exactly.
16:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And, so, here's the thing. The, I lived, nobody would live the idea more than I would. Here's the thing. If a black hole, which only eats things, is a portal to a wormhole, the other side of that wormhole can't also be a black hole.
16:21 Chuck Nice? Right, it has to be shoving things out.
16:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was, that's called a white hole.
16:25 Chuck Nice? Oh, really?
16:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
16:26 Chuck Nice? Now, see, why the white hole gotta be given and a black hole gotta be taken? This is what I'm trying to figure out.
16:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Chuck, not every reference is bad.
16:34 Chuck Nice? Okay.
16:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To black things.
16:35 Chuck Nice? Alright.
16:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
16:36 Chuck Nice? Okay.
16:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright.
16:37 Chuck Nice? Uh, do we have a?
16:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The black plague?
16:40 Chuck Nice? Kiss my black.
16:43 Chuck Nice? Kiss my black hole hole?
16:48 Chuck Nice? Alright.
16:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're just sad you were born too late to join the Black Panthers, that's all.
16:54 Chuck Nice? So, is there really a white hole? That's a white hole.
16:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Black Panthers, that, that's a double reference back. The Black Panthers is the, the group from the civil rights movement.
17:00 Chuck Nice? And...
17:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not the movie.
17:02 Chuck Nice? That's right.
17:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
17:02 Chuck Nice? And the guy that uses vibranium, so...
17:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah. So, where were we?
17:07 Chuck Nice? We were talking about the fact that there is something called a white hole.
17:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, so something called a white hole.
17:11 Chuck Nice? That you didn't just totally make that up.
17:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I did not totally make it up, and this was explored in the 1970s.
17:15 Chuck Nice? Okay.
17:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? When the mathematics of black holes were coming to maturity, and someone pos- posited, "Well, if you have a black hole, what's on the other side? It would be like a white hole." I mean, I mean, why not? Where everything only comes out.
17:27 Chuck Nice? Right.
17:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Then how would you connect them? With a wormhole. So, this, you got this, you get three for one.
17:32 Chuck Nice? Right.
17:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Deal on that. And then you can ask yourself what a white hole would look like in the universe. And then, so, in 1970s, we said, "If this is what a white hole would look like, let's check the data. Let's, let's go to the universe."
17:45 Chuck Nice? Right.
17:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nothing in the universe resembled it. Not even quasars, which are intense emanations of light from the distant universe in a very small volume. So, we abandoned that.
17:56 Chuck Nice? Okay.
17:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, if you could, I don't mind wormholes connecting the galaxies, I just don't see how you would invoke the black hole to do that.
18:01 Chuck Nice? To do it. Gotcha.
18:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, but great, great question. We gonna take a break?
18:04 Chuck Nice? Yep.
18:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Before we get lost in the black hole bag?
18:07 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
18:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And when we come back, more cosmic queries, black holes, and dark energy when we return.
18:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back, StarTalk, Cosmic Queries, black holes, dark energy.
18:39 Chuck Nice? Yes.
18:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We had so many questions, it's part two.
18:41 Chuck Nice? This is part two.
18:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And for this part, I have my special...
18:44 Chuck Nice? Black hole bag.
18:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Black hole bag.
18:46 Chuck Nice? That's hilarious.
18:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's just a black hole.
18:48 Chuck Nice? That's right.
18:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, and I don't know why they got little googly eyes on it, but okay.
18:52 Chuck Nice? And so I'm reaching in, the black hole, and okay, it just seems to be... Wouldn't it be funny if my hand just came out of the top here?
19:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, that would be really freaky. That'd be a wormhole.
19:04 Chuck Nice? The wormhole black hole bag.
19:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright.
19:07 Chuck Nice? Alright, hey, this is Mike Rush from Facebook, and he says, "If nothing can escape a black hole, including light, and nothing can move or travel faster than light, how is there massive jets of X-rays coming off many supermassive black holes? Wouldn't that mean that these particles/waves have been accelerated beyond the speed of light? Ooh."
19:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? People paying attention to the news.
19:35 Chuck Nice? These people are on top. They're on top of this!
19:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? On the game. Why are you ripping up the boys' question?
19:41 Chuck Nice? I was trying to make it for, like, you know, just emphasis, and, um...
19:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Emphasis?
19:47 Chuck Nice? I was trying to, you know, be emphatic, but instead I tore his question.
19:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You know what does that really well? Or belts. Have you ever done that with a belt?
19:53 Chuck Nice? Of course, yes. Snapping a belt.
19:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You just smack that, like this, I'm talking about?
19:56 Chuck Nice? You take a belt and you snap. That's how I keep my children in line.
20:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, but what's good?
20:01 Chuck Nice? I don't ever hit them. I just take the belt and kiss them.
20:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Do you have a belt?
20:04 Chuck Nice? I have a belt, but it's not that kind.
20:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh no, it's leather. It's a leather belt? Gimme, gimme, gimme.
20:09 Chuck Nice? Take my belt off.
20:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I just want to show you something.
20:11 Chuck Nice? Okay.
20:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This leather? Yeah, that'll work.
20:13 Chuck Nice? This is leather.
20:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so watch.
20:15 Chuck Nice? There you go.
20:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So this, I just want to show you.
20:17 Chuck Nice? For those of you listening, Neil now has my belt. My pants are down around my ankles.
20:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so I heard it.
20:21 Chuck Nice? Neil has my belt.
20:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is just, I just want to show you, okay?
20:24 Chuck Nice? Wow.
20:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You see that?
20:25 Chuck Nice? Yes.
20:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so it turns out.
20:26 Chuck Nice? Right.
20:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That sound.
20:28 Chuck Nice? Wow.
20:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is only made.
20:29 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
20:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? At the last instant that these make contact.
20:33 Chuck Nice? Okay, that makes sense.
20:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
20:35 Chuck Nice? Right?
20:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But if you put your finger there.
20:37 Chuck Nice? No, I'm not doing that.
20:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You do it, I promise. I promise. I promise.
20:41 Chuck Nice? What kind of trick is this?
20:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We go way back.
20:43 Chuck Nice? All right, here we go.
20:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
20:44 Chuck Nice? I'm gonna trust you. Here we go.
20:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, just again.
20:46 Chuck Nice? Okay. Woo! I'm not leaving my finger in there.
20:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, now put your finger in.
20:49 Chuck Nice? Oh, come on now. Go ahead. Oh! Look at that. Oh my gosh!
20:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? See that?
20:55 Chuck Nice? Look at that.
20:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You didn't know about that?
20:56 Chuck Nice? I had no idea.
20:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you can scare people with it.
21:00 Chuck Nice? Right.
21:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But really, it's just.
21:02 Chuck Nice? And nothing.
21:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It doesn't.
21:03 Chuck Nice? That's amazing!
21:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because you're, because it's only the.
21:06 Chuck Nice? I'm like a kid! I'm so easily impressed by stuff! I'm like, oh my god! It doesn't hurt!
21:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You didn't know about that?
21:16 Chuck Nice? Yeah, but see, listen, I'm black. That belt represents a lot.
21:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A whole lot of butt whooping.
21:21 Chuck Nice? That's right.
21:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right.
21:23 Chuck Nice? Oh my god, I've never seen that. I can't wait to go home and do this to my five-year-old. Now put your finger in there.
21:32 Chuck Nice? That was awesome.
21:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
21:34 Chuck Nice? Go ahead.
21:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, you can put your.
21:36 Chuck Nice? I can put my belt.
21:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? While I'm answering.
21:37 Chuck Nice? Yes.
21:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So what, so the question was, oh, about the, okay.
21:41 Chuck Nice? So these, these supermass, these x-rays that are coming off of these supermassive black holes.
21:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here's what happens. You have all this matter trying to get into the black hole.
21:51 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
21:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not on purpose.
21:52 Chuck Nice? Not on purpose. Right.
21:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Trying to not get in the black hole.
21:55 Chuck Nice? Right.
21:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. Most matter that falls towards a black hole is not falling exactly online with its location in space.
22:03 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
22:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That would be unusual.
22:05 Chuck Nice? Right.
22:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Typically, it would just fall off to the side, one direction or another.
22:09 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
22:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it turns out, the system, the rotating system, as matter tries to come in, it'll miss the black hole, but then it'll get pulled into orbit around it.
22:22 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
22:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay? And so now you have this circulating matter. Right. And we have a term for it, it's called an accretion disk. An accretion disk. It's a accreting material, alright. Nice. And this accretion disk feeds the black hole. The innermost part of it goes unstable in its orbit, and then it spirals down, and that's lost forever. Right. Okay. But, in order for all this matter that used to be out here. Right. To end up here. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of gravitational energy it has to release to do that. So let me, let me just a little more TMI on this, you ready? Good, go for it. If I just drop something towards Earth, what happens to its speed? It accelerates. It accelerates. Right. Right? Okay. Alright.
23:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nine point eight centimeters per second squared or some crap like that. Meters per second. Meters per second. Yeah, you got the significant digits. Yes, exactly. Alright, so it's nine hundred. Centimeters per second, that's funny, go ahead.
23:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Meters per second. Nine hundred and eighty. Right. Alright, so, so here's the thing. So, to get from some distant place to the black hole. Right. And then stop moving. Right. Where does all that energy go? Alright? And what I'm saying is, any matter that's trying to get to the black hole from far away is gonna have to release that energy. If it's gonna land where the black hole is. Right. And so, since most of it misses the black hole and goes to the side, you get this disk. And so you have this disk of material, all trying to get in, and there's friction between the inner layers that rotate faster than the outer layers.
24:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's material hitting it, and then again, stopping because it hit it, but that's a collision with it. And we have bright spots that show up on these accretion disks. Right. That's an active place. Yeah, that's. And if you're a disk and you're trying to radiate, you can't radiate through the disk because there's disk stuff there. Right. Where's the only place that's free and clear to spit up material and energy? Above and below the disk. Okay? Right. So.
24:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So you have this thick accretion disk and it's basically empty on the top and bottom.
24:40 Chuck Nice? Right.
24:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So all the energy that is trying to get in and can't will get released in the opposite directions. And you get generally, generally you get two discs.
24:50 Chuck Nice? Right.
24:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Coming out on the poles of this accretion disk.
24:53 Chuck Nice? That's beautiful.
24:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You get two jets.
24:55 Chuck Nice? That's yeah.
24:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Coming out at the poles of the accretion disk.
24:57 Chuck Nice? That's amazing.
24:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, it is completely amazing.
24:59 Chuck Nice? And those are all the pictures that you see of the black hole with the jets streaming out.
25:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And, and this is material that never got into the event horizon.
25:06 Chuck Nice? Right. So it's not that it's escaping the black hole. It never made it in.
25:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It never made it there in the first place.
25:11 Chuck Nice? It's actually the dejected, non-party going club people that were not allowed into the club.
25:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Rejected from the velvet rope.
25:20 Chuck Nice? Right. They couldn't get past the velvet rope.
25:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They wouldn't just walk away. They got ejected.
25:24 Chuck Nice? Exactly. That is wild.
25:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah. So there it is. And that's why. So, so, but you only get it if you have an accretion disk.
25:31 Chuck Nice? Right.
25:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And if accretion disk is really thin and sparse.
25:35 Chuck Nice? Right.
25:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Then the, the energy can go kinda in multiple directions. You won't get these, these really, uh, uh, uh, strong jets.
25:42 Chuck Nice? Strong plumes that come up the top and bottom.
25:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And what it also has a way of doing is it's the term is collimates. So it actually makes everything come out only in that one direction, like in a pencil beam.
25:55 Chuck Nice? Nice.
25:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. So if you don't happen to be in a sight line to it.
26:01 Chuck Nice? Right.
26:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's not going to be very bright to you.
26:02 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
26:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So there's some galaxies that are supremely bright.
26:06 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
26:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And it's because we, we think that this jet is actually facing directly towards you.
26:10 Chuck Nice? Wow.
26:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? With all this energy focused down into this jet.
26:14 Chuck Nice? That is amazing stuff. What a great question.
26:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you go.
26:18 Chuck Nice? Nice. Excellent.
26:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. Hang on.
26:20 Chuck Nice? Mix it up. I'm going in, going in the black hole.
26:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right.
26:24 Chuck Nice? And I'm pulling out. Mm-hmm. Here we go. This is, uh, Kenoda Bradford. Kenoda. Once, oh no, I'm sorry. Kianta. Kianta Bradford.
26:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How can Kenoda become Kianta?
26:37 Chuck Nice? Uh.
26:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Damn.
26:38 Chuck Nice? Cause I just made it that.
26:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right.
26:41 Chuck Nice? All right. Kianta wants to know this. Um.
26:45 Chuck Nice? If photons have no mass, how does the gravitational force of the black hole pull in the photons?
26:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh.
26:57 Chuck Nice? What a great question.
26:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ooh, I can answer that in two ways.
27:00 Chuck Nice? Okay.
27:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Each of them kinda mind blowing.
27:02 Chuck Nice? Alright, good.
27:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Are you ready?
27:03 Chuck Nice? Ah, yes, please.
27:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
27:05 Chuck Nice? Excellent.
27:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, the first one is simple.
27:07 Chuck Nice? Right.
27:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, energy and mass are the same.
27:11 Chuck Nice? There you go.
27:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The two sides of the same coin.
27:13 Chuck Nice? Right.
27:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You can plug the energy of the photon into E equals mc squared equation.
27:19 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
27:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the E.
27:20 Chuck Nice? Right.
27:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And divide that by c squared and out the other side comes the mass.
27:24 Chuck Nice? Right. And the cool thing is, and that makes sense. That's why you have an equals sign there.
27:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what an equals sign is. That's how equals signs roll.
27:32 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
27:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? When you're doing a calculation, equals mc squared is the same as m equals E divided by c squared.
27:38 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
27:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, c is the speed of light squared. So, you take your energy of the photon divided by c squared, you get a mass out of that.
27:45 Chuck Nice? There you go.
27:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So now you can think of the black hole attracting a mass.
27:48 Chuck Nice? Right.
27:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And it'll attract it in exactly the way, um, it'll attract the photon exactly the way it would a mass of that amount. Okay?
27:55 Chuck Nice? I love that.
27:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, but, but wait. That's not the more interesting answer.
27:59 Chuck Nice? Okay. Well, you had me.
28:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. A photon.
28:03 Chuck Nice? Okay.
28:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Travels along the fabric of spacetime at all times.
28:13 Chuck Nice? Alright, give me a second, man. Just, just wait a second, please. Give me one second. A photon travels along the fabric of spacetime.
28:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
28:26 Chuck Nice? At all times.
28:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
28:28 Chuck Nice? So therefore.
28:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
28:29 Chuck Nice? It is not traveling at any time, although it's traveling in time and space.
28:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, you went a little too far now, Chuck.
28:41 Chuck Nice? Yeah, okay, okay. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not as artful at explaining this.
28:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here we go.
28:45 Chuck Nice? My brain is.
28:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So here we go.
28:47 Chuck Nice? Go, go for it.
28:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So here we go.
28:48 Chuck Nice? There you go.
28:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Holding aside the fact that because the photon goes at the speed of light.
28:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It has no time. Let's hold that aside, because time has slowed down so much, it's actually stopped for a photon. So photon has no time at all? It has no inner clock. So, the instant it is emitted anywhere in the universe Okay. is the same instant as it is absorbed by your detector at the business end of your telescope. To it. To it. To it. It knows nothing of the journey between being formed and being hitting something and getting absorbed. Okay, wait a minute a second. Okay? By the way, I say about my photon, if you're on the beach, sunning yourself, there's a photon from across the galaxy. Right. Travel a whole galaxy and lands on your buttocks. Right. Then that's how it ended its life. Well, that was a happy photon.
29:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Sensors, you got this? Okay, so, holding that aside. Right. You've heard of the famous experiment conducted by Sir Arthur Eddington? Oh, of course. My favorite, yes. Sir Arthur, famous experiment. Artie, Artie. Yeah, Artie, oh, Artie. So, four years after Einstein put forth his prediction Right. that gravity bends space and time. Space and time.
30:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Arthur Eddington, during a total solar eclipse, conducting an expedition. Yes, I know this story. That's why I knew you knew it. To measure whether light coming by the edge of the sun. Right. Whether its path was bent. And the way you do that is, you get a map of all the stars during a solar eclipse, because you can't see the stars otherwise. And get their exact position on the sky. Yes. Then wait six months later, and take a picture of that same part of the sky. Six months the sun is not in the frame. Right. There it is. And then you compare their positions. Right. And he found that the stars closer to where the sun was, their position had shifted. Wow. And so, this is the bending of starlight around the sun. So cool. Okay, so, here's the point. Go ahead. The starlight never bent.
30:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The light, the photons, always took a straight line.
31:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That straight line was bent in the fabric of space itself.
31:06 Chuck Nice? Which means...
31:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The photon knew nothing else but to take that path.
31:10 Chuck Nice? Wow, so the actual curvature of spacetime itself is the surfing...
31:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
31:19 Chuck Nice? That's what, the photon is surfing.
31:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
31:22 Chuck Nice? The actual curvature of spacetime itself!
31:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
31:27 Chuck Nice? Holy shit!
31:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That is why...
31:29 Chuck Nice? I'm sorry, sorry. My god!
31:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Holy poop!
31:33 Chuck Nice? Holy poops!
31:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so...
31:36 Chuck Nice? Oh my god, that's amazing!
31:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, in that context, the black hole isn't sucking in the photon.
31:43 Chuck Nice? No!
31:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The photon is just following the curve!
31:45 Chuck Nice? The photon is on a skateboard in a pool!
31:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
31:48 Chuck Nice? That's what's happening!
31:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's a skateboard!
31:50 Chuck Nice? It's on a skateboard in a pool, and it's just following the dip of the pool, man!
31:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you have it.
31:55 Chuck Nice? Dude, that is amazing!
31:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, photons do that.
31:58 Chuck Nice? That's awesome!
31:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes!
31:59 Chuck Nice? Oh, that's so awesome!
32:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, so light technically never curves, because that is a straight line to it.
32:07 Chuck Nice? Wow!
32:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To it.
32:09 Chuck Nice? Wow!
32:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, in other words, let's say the path came around.
32:13 Chuck Nice? Right.
32:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you stand here.
32:14 Chuck Nice? Right.
32:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And look straight in this direction, you're seeing this spot!
32:17 Chuck Nice? That's right, that's what you're...
32:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because space curves!
32:20 Chuck Nice? That's right, that's amazing, that is so cool!
32:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So as far as space and the photon is concerned, they're just going in a straight line.
32:26 Chuck Nice? Exactly, oh my god, that's so cool! That is really great.
32:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you go.
32:29 Chuck Nice? That's good stuff right there, baby!
32:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's some good shit!
32:31 Chuck Nice? See, I don't even wanna finish this show, let's go home! I'm good!
32:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We gotta take a break? Coming up, yet another segment of Cosmic Queries, Black Hole Dark Energy Edition. I'm starting.
32:57 Chuck Nice? Hey, we'd like to give a Patreon shout out to the following Patreon patrons, Ricky Saul and Nasarg Yoshi. Thanks so much, guys, for your support. Without you, there's no way that we could make this trek across the cosmos. And for those of you listening who would like your own Patreon shout out, go to patreon.com/startalkradio and support us.
33:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back. Startalk. Cosmic query. Black hole. I guess I said it right. Black hole. Black holes. Black holes and dark energy. That's right. I gotta add something to my answer. About? But you were so... Yeah, that was good stuff.
33:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Can you handle more? I'm not sure. My head might explode. It's great, though. Go ahead. So, the experiment that showed that light bent coming around the sun Right. in 1919. Right. Okay, four years after Einstein had his idea in 1915, published in 1916. So you might see both of those dates, but referring to the same ideas. Right. So, he predicts that space will curve in the vicinity of strong gravity, or any gravity, but you want to be able to measure it. So you want a strong gravity source like the sun. So watch. It turns out, if you plug the energy of the photon into equals mc squared
34:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? and get a mass, and then predict what the curve would be, you get Newton's answer to that question. Wow. You don't get Einstein's answer. Okay. In fact, Newton, that's ordinary gravity. It's a mass and a thing. Right. Okay? That would be the rubber seat. No, no, no, we're not yet at the rubber seat. We're not even at the rubber seat. Newton doesn't know anything about rubber sheets. Right. It's just, I'm a mass, you're a mass, we attract each other. Right. Okay? So, even though it would have never been measured before, the curving of light. Right.
35:00 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It had to curve by the amount predicted by Einstein.
35:04 Chuck Nice? Absolutely.
35:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It can't have just been curved light. So you will see news accounts remembering this experiment saying, "And the light bent around the sun proving Einstein." No, that just proved that photon responds to gravity.
35:16 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
35:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
35:18 Chuck Nice? I get what you're saying now, right?
35:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
35:19 Chuck Nice? Yes.
35:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, when you invoke Einstein's full-blown general theory of relativity equations, you predict twice the deflection.
35:30 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
35:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Of the beam of light than a standard calculation with Isaac Newton. And the measurements made by Sir Arthur, Artie.
35:38 Chuck Nice? Artie, our boy Artie.
35:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And his measurements recovered that full factor of two difference between what you would have measured. So the problem is no one had measured the curvature of light before. So it gets bundled together with what would have happened if the light curved but was not as big as Einstein's number.
35:54 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
35:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It would have just been, "Newton, your light is also curving."
35:58 Chuck Nice? Right, exactly. Because.
35:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Newton didn't know anything about equals mc squared.
36:01 Chuck Nice? Exactly. So, yeah, so now it's just like, big object, okay? Or mass attracts, and so now that's why you got the curve.
36:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you get the, right, so we would have been cool with that.
36:10 Chuck Nice? It would have been cool with that.
36:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It would just be cool. It would have curved because the gravity pulled it.
36:14 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
36:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whereas Einstein, in the fabric of spacetime, run the math on his equations, you get a factor of two greater than Newton.
36:22 Chuck Nice? Which, oh my god, which is right, exactly. So that's amazing. And that there shows you that it's the fabric of spacetime itself.
36:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Rather than just gravity pulling on.
36:34 Chuck Nice? Pulling on something.
36:37 Chuck Nice? Oh, I, god, I love science.
36:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Are you ready? Space tells matter how to move.
36:43 Chuck Nice? Right.
36:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Matter tells space how to curve.
36:46 Chuck Nice? Nice.
36:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you go.
36:48 Chuck Nice? There you go, baby.
36:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a quote from John Archibald Wheeler, a student of Albert Einstein. "And I met my to-be-wife in his relativity class."
36:58 Chuck Nice? Oh, sweet.
36:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
36:59 Chuck Nice? All right, let's move on.
37:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Go to our black hole bag.
37:03 Chuck Nice? Into the black hole bag. Pulling out. All right. Hey, Fernando Rodriguez wants to know this. Is it possible that?
37:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? He could be from Hackensack. It's just, you know, Fernando Rodriguez.
37:17 Chuck Nice? Then it's just Fernando Rodriguez. All right. I like Fernando.
37:23 Chuck Nice? Fernando Rodriguez. It's so very good to meet you.
37:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What?
37:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the Puss in Boots.
37:35 Chuck Nice? Yeah, I was about to say. Perhaps you know my friend Kitty Sopas.
37:42 Chuck Nice? Who was the actor? That's Antonio Banderas.
37:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Antonio Banderas, that was one of the funniest characters.
37:48 Chuck Nice? I love it.
37:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All of Shrek. Okay, go on.
37:50 Chuck Nice? Is it possible that dark energy and dark matter are stuff permeating into our universe from another nearby universe? And that our matter and energy is being permeated into another universe? Here's the caveat. Via black holes.
38:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, I mean, just think about it. Hold off on dark energy for a moment because that's just everywhere. And it would not lend itself as well to this expectation as dark matter would.
38:23 Chuck Nice? Okay.
38:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so dark matter is a source of gravity about which we know nothing.
38:29 Chuck Nice? Got you.
38:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's not black holes, it's just gravity out there. We don't know what's causing it.
38:34 Chuck Nice? Right.
38:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Maybe it's some new particle? We've got top people looking for new particles?
38:38 Chuck Nice? Nice.
38:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Particles that don't interact with you in any kind of way, don't care about you. So it could be just another sort of coexisting state of matter that we have to learn about. All right.
38:50 Chuck Nice? Got you.
38:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What I, I, I, did you know this? I don't know if you knew.
38:55 Chuck Nice? Go ahead.
38:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That light is trapped within our universe. It can't get out, but gravity can.
39:01 Chuck Nice? That's wild.
39:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, isn't that interesting?
39:03 Chuck Nice? That is very interesting.
39:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And I never took a full up field theory course in graduate school where I would have learned this. So I'm describing this to you because this is what people who I trust and who are experts have told me.
39:16 Chuck Nice? Okay.
39:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Not because I did the calc. Mostly the other stuff I talk about here, I've done the calculations.
39:21 Chuck Nice? Got you.
39:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, but the things I'm just trusting them.
39:24 Chuck Nice? Okay.
39:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's a field theory course, right? In it, the properties of gravity are such that it is not contained within our universe.
39:30 Chuck Nice? Okay.
39:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So if there's a parallel universe, it in principle could feel the effects of gravity in our universe. Well, then so would the opposite be true.
39:39 Chuck Nice? Right.
39:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, so if that's the case, maybe there's a honking universe out there because... Eighty-five percent of the gravity of our universe comes from what we call dark matter.
39:51 Chuck Nice? Right.
39:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Eighty-five percent.
39:53 Chuck Nice? Wow.
39:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so we are just blips on a you know, we're froth on the wave of the ocean.
39:58 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
39:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So perhaps, there's a hunkering galaxy, a hunkering universe, six times the mass of our, actually it'd have to be more than that, because to come out of the universe, it has to be even stronger than the ordinary gravity you'd feel within the universe.
40:14 Chuck Nice? Okay.
40:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's because it's coming out in another dimension.
40:16 Chuck Nice? Right.
40:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so, in other words, if you, if you scream to someone, your voice dilutes as it gets, as it spreads out.
40:23 Chuck Nice? Right.
40:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? By a weight rate we can calculate. Now suppose you're also screaming into another dimension.
40:30 Chuck Nice? Carol Anne. Mommy. Mommy. Carol Anne.
40:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's exactly what I'm saying. What? What? Okay.
40:44 Chuck Nice? Turn it on. She's in the TV.
40:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, if you're screaming, then the energy you need to have strength going to that extra dimension.
40:56 Chuck Nice? Uh huh.
40:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And still matter to wherever it's headed, it's gotta be much bigger than just went into your own dimensions here. So that's what I'm saying. Every dimension you add, it dilutes faster. Let me put it that way.
41:06 Chuck Nice? Okay, okay.
41:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
41:08 Chuck Nice? Got you.
41:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Like, for example, if I'm sending marbles down a one-way path.
41:12 Chuck Nice? Right.
41:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's no dilution.
41:13 Chuck Nice? Right.
41:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because all the marbles-
41:15 Chuck Nice? They're just rolling down-
41:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Rolling down the path.
41:17 Chuck Nice? That's it.
41:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now if I spread it out like this, in a fan, now the marbles will dilute into a fan.
41:23 Chuck Nice? Right.
41:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
41:24 Chuck Nice? Okay.
41:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Mathematically, they'll dilute as one over R. Okay?
41:27 Chuck Nice? Alright.
41:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Now if I, over, one over the distance. Now if I diluted into a cone, they'll dilute like one over R squared.
41:33 Chuck Nice? Got you.
41:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As does light and as does gravity.
41:36 Chuck Nice? Got you.
41:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If I now diluted into a higher dimension than that.
41:39 Chuck Nice? Right.
41:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You need, it'll dilute like one over the fourth.
41:42 Chuck Nice? Got you. That's funny, because you just went, you did, you went from flat to two to three dimensional.
41:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right, and so the higher, add a dimension, you need that dimension to get to the other universe.
41:52 Chuck Nice? Got you.
41:53 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so, the gravity would have to be like that much more powerful.
41:56 Chuck Nice? Okay.
41:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But suppose it was, suppose at twelve times the mass of our, our universe, or a hundred times the mass of the- it could be their gravity seeping into ordinary mass, with ordinary gravity.
42:07 Chuck Nice? Right.
42:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Seeping into our universe. And since we can't see the origin, which is this mysterious thing. What is this? Which is. That is so wild. It's mysterious. That's wild. That's right. Oh my God, that makes so much sense, though. Well. It really makes so much sense. Right, right. And here we are trying to touch an elephant that's not even there. Exactly. Right. That is cruel. So I'm all in for that. That's the solution I want. I love it. Because that would be evidence in direct, though it was, of another parallel universe to us. That's so wild. Right, because you know, you know who's looking for the new particle that it could be? Particle physicists. Right. So they're hammers looking for nails. There you go. That's it. So I'm not any of those hammers. I'm looking for whatever's out there. Right. I'll take any of it.
42:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Fantastic, man. That's good stuff. Yeah, no, it's a real, it's a really, it's a really, a really fun concept. That's gotta be like the cutting edge frontier of all physics. And just for reference, not that I think everyone got that example, but let me give a simpler one, just in case you want it. Yeah, I mean, I got it, but go ahead. That's a good, that's a, that's a. It was a good example. If we live within a sheet of paper. Right. Right? And that's your whole world. Right. But you're a three dimensional person looking at we poor creatures and you have a hollow sphere. And we might have done this on another show. Yes, we did. If I drop that sphere, pass that sphere through your sheet of paper. That's it. How will you describe that to your other scientists in the sheet of paper? Well, first there's a dot. Right. And then the dot.
43:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That becomes a circle. The circle gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and then it hits a maximum point. And it started closing up again. And then it ends, disappears. Nice. Who knows where it went? I don't know. Right. Where you just passed a sphere through us. Right. So there could be higher dimensional things influencing your space environment that you, it's just, it's the stuff of legends and lore and that sort of thing. That's cool. Yeah. Wow. All right, back to the bag. Do more. More black holes from the black hole bag. Right. Here we go. Mm-hmm.
44:12 Chuck Nice? Alright, this is Jackson Welch. And Jackson Welch from Instagram wants to know, "If a solar system further from..."
44:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So people can send questions to us from all platforms?
44:21 Chuck Nice? Everywhere.
44:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, okay, good.
44:23 Chuck Nice? Yeah, we're everywhere, man.
44:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Instagram, IG.
44:25 Chuck Nice? And he says, "If a solar system further from the black hole of our galaxy has a planet which inhabits intelligent life, would time be faster on that planet relative to ours? Also, if their planet had life developed at the same time as ours, might they be more advanced due to the relative time difference? And thus having had, quote-unquote, 'more time to develop'?"
44:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, the gravitational field of the black hole is so weak by the time you get out here, it's not a thing.
44:58 Chuck Nice? It's just not a thing.
44:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's not a thing. So, no, don't lose sleep over that.
45:02 Chuck Nice? Right.
45:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And, so, but what is interesting is, and this is like inside baseball here, but it turns out, our speeds should be dropping off as you get out... So here's the whole galaxy, we're a flat disk spiral galaxy. As you get farther out, the speeds should be dropping off. Because you're farther away from the center of the action. But they're not, they're like, stable.
45:28 Chuck Nice? Right.
45:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They're quote "flat." So our speed is the same, basically, as that of stars orbiting exterior to us. Something is enabling that to happen. Something is having them go faster than they otherwise would. This was a discovery made in 1976 by Vera Rubin, and that was the discovery of dark matter in galaxies themselves.
45:55 Chuck Nice? Oh! So dark matter is actually influencing galaxies to the point where...
46:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, our rotation rate.
46:03 Chuck Nice? Our rotation rate should be slower at the...
46:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And the dark matter is giving it more gravity to turn.
46:10 Chuck Nice? Wow.
46:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah. So...
46:12 Chuck Nice? Now, is that the...
46:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, all that means is that we have the same speed.
46:15 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
46:16 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so, therefore, there's not any relative anything. But, even if we did start life at the same time, it could easily have life way sooner than we did. Or way later. Because every branch in the tree of life is an enormous contingency of events.
46:34 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
46:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Suppose the asteroid never took out the dinosaurs.
46:38 Chuck Nice? Right.
46:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We would all still be, you know, small rodents running underfoot trying to avoid being orders for...
46:46 Chuck Nice? Um, I'm gonna say, uh, uh, I'm trying to think of the dinosaur now.
46:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? T-Rex.
46:52 Chuck Nice? Thank you. But, no, I wanted to go with the clever girl, that one.
46:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Which one is that?
46:57 Chuck Nice? The raptor.
46:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, clever girl, velociraptor.
47:00 Chuck Nice? Velociraptor.
47:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Clever, yeah, yeah, I remember that line.
47:02 Chuck Nice? Clever girl.
47:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? From Jurassic Park.
47:04 Chuck Nice? Right before he gets eaten.
47:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? By the way, you know how big those raptors actually are? They're about this big.
47:07 Chuck Nice? Oh, really? They're small.
47:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, we have them in the, on display.
47:10 Chuck Nice? Oh, in the museum?
47:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah.
47:11 Chuck Nice? They're tiny.
47:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, yeah, I could kick it.
47:13 Chuck Nice? You could kick it.
47:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I could to- I could totally bust his ass, so...
47:16 Chuck Nice? That's so funny.
47:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here I say, I'm talking to a fossil.
47:19 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
47:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah. But, uh, they, they pumped them up for the movie.
47:24 Chuck Nice? Gotcha.
47:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, just to make them a little more eye to eye.
47:26 Chuck Nice? Right, exactly.
47:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Obviously, something big can kill you, but something your size?
47:30 Chuck Nice? Right.
47:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a little more, that's a fight.
47:32 Chuck Nice? That's a fight now.
47:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's a fight that you're gonna lose, but it's a fight.
47:34 Chuck Nice? Yeah, it's still a fight.
47:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah. You think it's a fight, and then you're gonna lose it anyway.
47:36 Chuck Nice? And then you get slashed open with these razor-sharp talons of a velociraptor, and you're like, "Why did I bring a belly to a raptor fight? I don't know what I'm saying."
47:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, the point is, almost anything, and we went three billion years with single-celled life.
47:54 Chuck Nice? Right.
47:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If there's something else that pumped oxygen into the air faster than they did?
47:58 Chuck Nice? Right.
47:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We'd have had an oxygenated atmosphere much earlier, enabling oxygen metabolism life to take root sooner than it did on another planet perhaps, rather than here.
48:06 Chuck Nice? Right.
48:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If you wanna use Earth as some kind of measure of things. So, there could be life forms on planets just as old as ours that are a billion times more evolutionarily, um, advanced than we are.
48:19 Chuck Nice? Right.
48:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A billion years.
48:20 Chuck Nice? That's funny.
48:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Think about that.
48:21 Chuck Nice? That's great.
48:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, yeah.
48:22 Chuck Nice? That's pretty wild.
48:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You got it.
48:24 Chuck Nice? All right.
48:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, dude, I think that's it.
48:26 Chuck Nice? I know, we're out of time, this was a...
48:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Man, wait, wait, stick your head in there, tell me how many questions are left.
48:29 Chuck Nice? Let me see.
48:29 Speaker 02 Oh. Ah, we lost track.
48:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right. Well, thanks for tuning in. Nobody tunes anything anymore. This is true. Thanks for, uh... Thanks for clicking on. Click, yeah, whatever you did to hear this. Thanks for listening, watching. This has been StarTalk, Cosmic Queries Edition, Black Holes and Dark Energy. Chuck Nice. Thank you, always a pleasure, brother. All right. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, signing off from my office at the Hayden Planetarium, where I'm telling you, as I always do, to keep looking up.
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