Pod Insights StarTalk Podcast C-3PO and the Rise of Robots, with Anthony Daniels About this episode What’s the difference between a robot and an android? Should laws protect robots? Neil deGrasse Tyson explores the rise of robots with “I Am C-3PO” author and Star Wars actor Anthony Daniels, comic co-host Chuck Nice, and robot ethicist Kate Darling, PhD.
Transcript 10,084 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And today I got with Chuck Nice. Hey, hey, Neil. Fist bump that. Boom, what's up? And there's like someone between us here. I know, I know. We're always fist bumping in somebody's face. In somebody's face. Yeah. Uh, today, we're talking about robots. In fact, that's not only what we're gonna do, that's the title of the show. Talking about robots. Talking about robots. Talking about robots. Little on the nose. And we have as our studio guest, Kate Darling. Kate, welcome.
0:45 Speaker 01 I don't get a fist bump?
0:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Double fist bump, give it a... Bam! Oh, there you go. There you go. And while you're here with us, you are a robot ethicist. Didn't even know that was a thing. We'll get into that in a minute. From the MIT Media Lab, of course, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And what we're featuring today is my interview with Anthony Daniels. Anthony Daniels? Yeah. Oh, she's getting all nerdy, nerding out on that one. Anthony Daniels, the actor who portrayed C-3PO. Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Oh, oh, oh. Oh, you want the gig. How lovely! Oh, R2, R2, oh! You want the gig. No! In particular, we're not just talking about robots.
1:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're talking about relationships. Oh, okay. Between humans and robots, and we don't even know what that means entirely. Not at the moment. Ah, the movie AI kinda covered it. Yeah, okay, all right, all right. But, um, of course, C-3PO is from the Star Wars franchise. One of the most successful movie franchises. In history. There ever was. And just let me get a little bit of background on you, Kate. So, uh, did you come to this from robotics?
1:59 Speaker 01 No.
1:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No.
2:00 Speaker 01 Well, I've always loved robots, but I'm a social scientist.
2:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Nice.
2:03 Speaker 01 I have a legal background. I did social sciences and now I study human robot interaction from a social, legal and ethical perspective.
2:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow. Wow. So this, so, so it is, it's good to learn that someone such as you exists in that world. Yes. We should have somebody like you in all of the, the, the potentially troubled places where, where technology is going.
2:26 Speaker 01 You mean everywhere?
2:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Everywhere. Yeah, like everywhere. So you have a book that may be coming out in 2021.
2:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I have a title here. Is this the right one? The New Breed: What Our History With Animals Reveals About Our Future With Machines. That is a, that is a awesome title. That really is. So, so let me go get to my first clip with Anthony Daniels. He's the only actor that was in all nine Star Wars movies. Wow. All nine, the official, not the, not the, the, the, the fan off-ramps. Right, exactly. And he's also the author of I Am C-3PO: The Inside Story. Cool. You see what he did there?
3:06 Speaker 01 Very clever.
3:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You see what he did there? So what is it about C-3PO? Is it his performance, his, the way he speaks, that, that people could relate to him so deeply?
3:19 Speaker 01 Oh gosh, C-3PO was amazing. I think, I think what it is actually is that C-3PO looks like a robot but acts kind of like a human, like he's very flawed and has all these human emotions and I think people just relate to him ironically because he's so human-like.
3:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, so, oh, so it's the opposite. It's not like he's the perfect robot and we're finding a way to relate to that. Right. It's that he's, he has enough human in him so that he's an imperfect robot. Right. And that's what we're relating. Is that what you just told me?
3:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:52 Chuck Nice? You know, that makes sense because that is what makes us human. They're like, you know, the fact that we are flawed and imperfect and.
3:59 Speaker 01 And kind of annoying.
4:00 Chuck Nice? And well, definitely, not kind of, definitely annoying, you know.
4:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So I kind of liked it when he, when he got a little excited. Oh, what shall we do? That was just kind of fun. It was like, hey, that's kind of cool.
4:13 Chuck Nice? Yeah, exactly.
4:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that's, so it's the human side of the robot that we're relating to.
4:18 Speaker 01 Sometimes, yeah.
4:19 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In that case.
4:20 Speaker 01 In that case, for sure.
4:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, and so, so what is it about him, other than his costume, that told you he's a robot in how he's interacting with people? What is the evidence that he's a robot, other than he's a shiny metal thing?
4:35 Chuck Nice? Right, that he's, right.
4:36 Speaker 01 I mean, a lot of it is the design. I'm trying to remember anything like specifically robotic that he said.
4:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? See, I don't think so, other than I know 80 trillion languages.
4:46 Chuck Nice? Right, exactly.
4:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, something like that, maybe.
4:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We don't know human would, so that's a robot talent.
4:51 Chuck Nice? Right.
4:51 Speaker 01 But I think a lot is the visual and the way he moves.
4:54 Chuck Nice? Yes, well, and he does. It looks like he's actually doing the dance, the robot.
4:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
4:58 Speaker 01 You know what you want to do if you want to be a contemporary robot, though, is fall over a lot.
5:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, this is all YouTube videos.
5:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, let's go to a clip. So I sat down with Anthony Daniels and, did you know he wasn't always a fan of sci-fi?
5:13 Chuck Nice? Really?
5:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, remember, he, he's an actor.
5:15 Chuck Nice? Until he got that first check.
5:19 Chuck Nice? Love me. Oh, dear. I do believe I love Mr. Sci-Fi.
5:24 Chuck Nice? R2, R2, where's the nearest bank?
5:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Let's find out. What, what was he up to before he landed where he did? Check it out.
5:35 Speaker 03 Maybe I've been traumatized. You know, I never thought of this. I had been bashed around the head by 2001: A Space Odyssey, to the point where I never wanted to see another spaceship or.
5:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That was a long movie with very little dialogue. There's no character development, except for the how, the computer.
5:52 Speaker 03 Well, you're right there.
5:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it's a very different. Intersection of genre, yeah. It's not even science fiction. It's some other, it's a science portrait, in a way.
6:01 Speaker 03 It was almost a philosophical treatise on, on man and, and, and man versus space.
6:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, man, machine and space, yes.
6:10 Speaker 03 And, uh, so there we are. So I didn't wanna go because back then, the only robot that I remembered really were the Daleks on television.
6:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, the Daleks, yeah, so, so of Doctor Who.
6:21 Speaker 03 You know.
6:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, Doctor Who.
6:23 Speaker 03 Doctor Who with sink plungers on, on their faces. I mean, cute, and as a kid, I adored them, but as an acting role, not so much. Then there was Robbie before them, Robbie the Robot in, uh, what's it called?
6:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Uh, Forbidden Planet.
6:34 Speaker 03 Forbidden Planet. And he was this kind of lumbering thing made of mitchen in tires, really, it seemed to me.
6:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, cuz he had these hor- horizontal segments.
6:42 Speaker 03 That's right, and he lumbered in a kind of unprepossessing way, I felt. But anyway.
6:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Are you judging the acting talents of a robot?
6:50 Speaker 03 No, but it was, uh.
6:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You just gave a critique?
6:53 Speaker 03 No, no, no, it's in lumbered.
6:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? He didn't pull off that movement convincingly.
6:57 Speaker 03 He lumbered, and when you read on page ninety-five that I met Mr. Kineshita, who designed him, and I said joyfully, "Oh, what was it like to see your design come off the paper?" And he went, "Hmm, not so good. I didn't mean him to kind of lumber." And I said, "So, oh, so you get why ThreePO kind of teeters around cuz it's more characterful, more forgiving, more, more human in a way, say."
7:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, because, because the, uh, Robbie the Robot was, um, I'm saying robotic? No, I don't know. He, he just didn't, there was no, he had the arms, that was it. Whereas C-ThreePO, there were sort of body gestures that could help communicate.
7:37 Speaker 03 That's right.
7:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A mood.
7:39 Speaker 03 And it's all I had, really.
7:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, cuz there's no, this is not a moving mouth here.
7:43 Speaker 03 And you'd be surprised how many people think it's makeup that I'm, I'm wearing. No, it's a solid.
7:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We all saw Goldfinger, so just a couple of years earlier.
7:50 Speaker 03 Uh, yeah.
7:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
7:51 Speaker 03 She was prettier than me.
7:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So he was referencing his book, I am C3PO, and he said, on page 95.
7:58 Chuck Nice? Right.
7:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So Kate, how has, we talked about a few generations of robots there. How has our concept of robot evolved? From the beginning until now?
8:06 Speaker 01 It used to be that anything that was even remotely automata and could move on its own was viewed as a robot, and now we have a little bit more that we expect a robot to be able to do in behavior.
8:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, because in fact now, so when does it become an android? Versus a robot?
8:23 Speaker 01 An android is a robot that looks deceptively human-like.
8:27 Chuck Nice? Lieutenant Commander Data.
8:29 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, Data, my favorite android. And then there's C3PO, which is more of a humanoid robot, so like-
8:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh.
8:35 Speaker 01 Head, torso-
8:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I forgot the word humanoid goes in here.
8:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, so androids look realistic, humanoids just have a kind of human-shaped torso, head, arms, legs.
8:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So not R2-D2?
8:45 Speaker 01 Not R2-D2.
8:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So what's R2-D2?
8:47 Speaker 01 He's just a robot.
8:48 Chuck Nice? Just a robot.
8:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Damn, with no Oid on it.
8:50 Chuck Nice? Right. Poor R2. He's just a robot.
8:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so, but presumably all three kinds of robots are still legit in storytelling today?
9:02 Speaker 01 Oh yeah, for sure.
9:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. But we don't have the big Robbie the Robot kinds anymore, those, the lumbering-
9:08 Chuck Nice? Right.
9:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? With its circuits turning in the, in his-
9:12 Chuck Nice? Warning, real Robinson, warning!
9:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, that was a Robbie Robot style-
9:15 Chuck Nice? Exactly, that's in Lost in Space.
9:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Lost in Space.
9:18 Chuck Nice? Warning, real Robinson, danger, that's not warning, danger, real Robinson!
9:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Everybody's arms-
9:23 Chuck Nice? With the arms would be flailing-
9:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right.
9:25 Chuck Nice? And then Dr. Smith would be like, "Oh, deal, oh, deal!" You know.
9:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? At what point do you inform a person who might be trying to design a robot-
9:39 Chuck Nice? Ooh.
9:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? In terms of its personality, or its character, or how they would best be an actor doing so?
9:45 Speaker 01 I mean, I do, I work with roboticists a lot, in social robotics, and, you know, we have more and more robots coming into shared spaces, and they have to, you know, interact with people, and not all roboticists-
9:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What's a shared space?
9:57 Speaker 01 Oh, you know, a workplace, household, public areas-
9:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, okay, okay.
9:59 Speaker 01 Like Stop and Shop has robots roaming the aisles now-
10:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Do they?
10:02 Speaker 01 With googly eyes on them, yeah.
10:03 Chuck Nice? Uh, you could call, they are indeed a robot, but it's more like an obelisk on wheels with googly eyes attached.
10:10 Speaker 01 It looks like a penis.
10:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow, what?
10:12 Chuck Nice? All right, good.
10:13 Speaker 01 It does, though, I mean-
10:15 Chuck Nice? I'm just saying, maybe to you.
10:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay.
10:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it goes up and down the aisles?
10:23 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
10:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And there's no one controlling it?
10:24 Chuck Nice? No one's controlling it.
10:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There's no joystick?
10:26 Chuck Nice? It actually moves about like a Roomba. Like, you know, except it doesn't have to touch things.
10:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And I assume it doesn't bump into the orange aisle?
10:31 Chuck Nice? It doesn't.
10:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, the orange stack, right.
10:34 Chuck Nice? But I think, I've never engaged with them personally, but I think you can ask them questions and they will direct you to places in the store.
10:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, I got it. The next time I see one, I'm doing all kinds of experiments on it.
10:45 Chuck Nice? Oh my god.
10:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I was gonna say.
10:47 Speaker 01 I might have gone to Stop & Shop last weekend with Daniels, who's one of the students in the personal robotics lab, who is obsessed with this robot, and we might have like put stuff in front of the robot to see what it did.
10:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You might, just might.
10:58 Chuck Nice? And what happened?
10:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, they might have done it, they didn't, they...
11:00 Chuck Nice? Oh, you might, if you had. What do you think would have happened if you had actually done it? If you had done it?
11:06 Speaker 01 If we had.
11:07 Chuck Nice? What do you think might have happened?
11:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What were you testing it for?
11:09 Speaker 01 We didn't get kicked out. Yet, we're gonna go back. Well, we just wanted to see what it would do because the purpose of the robot is to find hazards on the floor and alert someone to come pick them up, and so we wanted to know what's a hazard.
11:21 Chuck Nice? Clean up our floor. Clean up our floor.
11:23 Speaker 01 Yep.
11:24 Chuck Nice? Now, I wonder what it would do if you just laid down in the floor, like on the floor, in front of it? Like, what it would do if it's actually, if that's a...
11:32 Speaker 01 It'll go around you.
11:33 Chuck Nice? See, that's a really bad robot!
11:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, why? What are you talking about?
11:37 Chuck Nice? So you'll recognize a spill, but I just had a damn heart attack?
11:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And it'll just go around you?
11:42 Chuck Nice? And you'll go around me? Really? So somebody drops a jar of pickles and it's a huge monumental problem? We need, you know, somebody to get here right away?
11:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But you're falling and you can't get up, and the robot, you're just in the way.
11:54 Chuck Nice? Exactly. Instead of hitting my metal bracelet, you're just like, okay, excuse me, like, really?
12:00 Speaker 01 So that's the thing, though, like, when designing robots, you have to think about, like, what's gonna be frustrating to people when they're interacting with it, and they're gonna be like, why isn't it helping me do X? When they don't understand that building a robot is really, really hard, and like, they only have very limited capabilities, and so roboticists really need to think not just about how they're working, but how people are gonna perceive them.
12:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They only have limited capabilities now.
12:23 Chuck Nice? Right.
12:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:25 Chuck Nice? Stop covering for them.
12:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So Anthony Daniels.
12:28 Chuck Nice? Yes.
12:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? As an actor.
12:29 Chuck Nice? Mm-hmm.
12:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay. He, uh, he's best known for C-3PO, but he almost didn't take the gig.
12:39 Chuck Nice? Oh.
12:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, so let's find out why.
12:41 Chuck Nice? Okay.
12:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Check it out.
12:43 Speaker 03 So there we were thinking about playing a robot. And the thing that really changed my mind was reading the words that I had not written. George and his team had written them, pretty much George. And clearly, he had invented a machine with more human characteristics than he could apply to a human being. You couldn't get away with Han Solo being the character of 3PO, if you see what I mean.
13:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right, right.
13:08 Speaker 03 So 3PO is allowed to have intense humanity, because he isn't a human.
13:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? He isn't human. That's, that's, that's deep.
13:17 Speaker 03 Not really.
13:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, it is. Because what you're saying is, with a machine who is sort of human, but it's still a machine, you can take it to human places that would be unconvincing if written for a human character.
13:31 Speaker 03 And slightly uncomfortable, written for... There are...
13:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I never thought about that.
13:35 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, you will now, in your next lecture. You can talk this up. There is a film called Bicentennial Man with...
13:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I never got to see that.
13:44 Speaker 03 Ah, it's interesting. Robin Williams, beautiful guy. I had luck to meet him a couple of times. No, we didn't talk about it, but that was a slightly uncomfortable film, because the storyteller was, he was transitioning from a robot that arrived in a packing case, you know, from Amazon or somewhere. And then...
14:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whatever the Amazon equivalent was, back when that movie was made.
14:09 Speaker 03 And then gradually, he metamorphizes into, into a human, and it's slightly uncomfortable, because it veers towards pushing our humanity buttons. What, what does it take to be human? And where are we slightly uncomfortable through the uncanny valley and beyond?
14:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So tell us about the uncanny valley. Because that's, it's, it's a great name, but it still has to be defined for people to know what it is.
14:32 Speaker 03 It is often used in, in games, or in visuals, or in film, or in computer terms. The Turing test almost gets there, but it's when something is almost real, looks great, and it speaks nicely, and has great skin, for instance, in a robot, but there's something that's not quite right. There's something that we sniff as a human being that's not quite there.
14:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it's even unconscious within us, perhaps?
15:00 Speaker 03 It's innate within us.
15:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Innate, that's a better word, right, right. You're not, you don't even know how to... Verbalize it.
15:05 Speaker 03 Verbalize it, yeah. And so people have coined this phrase, the uncanny valley, because you know there's something not quite right.
15:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Kate, do all humans respond to the uncanny valley the same way?
15:18 Speaker 01 So people have tested this theory empirically with very mixed results, but most people who work in robotics seem to think that there's something there.
15:27 Chuck Nice? And they're wrong.
15:29 Speaker 01 They're wrong?
15:29 Chuck Nice? Yeah, they are. Let me save them a lot of money. You're wrong.
15:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Save all the academics who have researched this.
15:33 Chuck Nice? Save all the academics who are researching this forever. You're wrong. What you're talking about is the perception of normal humanity. That's why you can't put your finger on it, because it doesn't exist. We feel the same way about human beings that may have some type of brain disorder. And we talk to them and we go, ooh, something not quite right here. But you don't say they're not a human being, but that's really what your, uh, that's what your perceptions are telling you. So what you're talking about is the normal perception of humanity as opposed to, uh, what makes someone human. And they're two different things.
16:13 Speaker 01 I think you're right. I think I personally think it's about...
16:16 Chuck Nice? I know I'm right, Kate. Let me tell you something. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking.
16:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So that comedy thing doesn't work out. I'll hire you in the lab. All right.
16:24 Chuck Nice? But go ahead.
16:25 Speaker 01 Well, for me, the uncanny valley's always been about expectation management because you're expecting something to behave a certain way. If it looks human, you're expecting it to blink like a human and not twitch its face. And if it doesn't, that kind of unsettles you. If it, if it does something that you're not expecting.
16:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So what do, what do programmers, yourself, what do you all do in the media lab to either exploit the uncanny valley or to dodge it?
16:51 Speaker 01 I don't think anyone wants to exploit it, but I also don't understand why we would try to create something that looks like a human or talks like a human, because we can create anything we want. Why create, like, why try to, like, risk this uncanny valley creepiness factor when we can create an R2-D2 that communicates and beeps and boos?
17:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Do you tell this to your peeps back at MIT?
17:11 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Like, everyone, I think, in the social robotics field agrees that making, you know, human-like robots is not as interesting as making something that has expression. Yeah, you can make something better.
17:25 Chuck Nice? Something better than humans.
17:25 Speaker 01 Animators have honed this technique for hundreds of years. How you can make something like... Bambi that looks like a deer but actually looks better than a deer to us.
17:36 Chuck Nice? Okay, alright.
17:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So I, I, I agree with you but from a different direction. So I, I think the future of AI and robots is not to try to mimic a person.
17:46 Chuck Nice? Okay.
17:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A person is not even an ideal form.
17:49 Speaker 01 No.
17:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right. If for tasks that you want to conduct, the human body is like, why you, why would you design that? That's not the case. Even with the, the, um, the people who don't have legs but they run track.
18:01 Chuck Nice? On the blades?
18:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? On blades.
18:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're not trying to duplicate the bones of a foot and then put flesh on it and say now you're, no. It's like, we got something better.
18:10 Chuck Nice? Something better.
18:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Something better.
18:11 Chuck Nice? There's something that'll spring and propel you forward faster.
18:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So in your, in your lab, are people thinking of the task they need, not trying to duplicate a human? Because we can just, people make babies all the time. Why do you need to make a robot human? We have real humans.
18:25 Speaker 01 Well, I think people have like this fascination with recreating ourselves, but like, I, I really don't see the point. I think we're all in agreement here.
18:32 Chuck Nice? Wow, yeah. I mean, I've never thought of it that way, but you're right. I think, you know, when you look, look at sci-fi movies, like Alien comes to mind. And the, the, uh, so-called android robot is so human that it's indistinguishable, indistinguishable. But the problem is, it doesn't have a soul, so it can't make any more, it's a sociopath.
18:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Let's get to that next.
18:58 Chuck Nice? Okay.
18:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We gotta take a break when StarTalk returns more about the evolving relationship between robots and humans.
19:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back with StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson, your host Chuck Nice.
19:34 Chuck Nice? That's right.
19:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Kate Darling.
19:36 Chuck Nice? Kate Dar.
19:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Kate Darling. In from Boston, thanks for coming, from Cambridge specifically, the MIT Media Lab. Good stuff happens. Every time something amazing is happening, it's traceable back to the MIT lab.
19:49 Chuck Nice? Funny how that works.
19:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just, not only like art science and robotic science and computing and just, and, and, and culture.
19:58 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
19:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, just congratulations to all y'all.
20:00 Speaker 01 Oh yeah, it's just me. I mean.
20:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You the one, alright.
20:06 Speaker 01 Credit.
20:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I just want to pick up on where we left off. This idea that you're talking about in the Alien series, there was a human, there was a human who was not human.
20:17 Chuck Nice? Right.
20:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, not even humanoid, android.
20:20 Chuck Nice? Android.
20:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Android.
20:21 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
20:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you're cool until you realize they would make a different ethical choice than you would.
20:27 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
20:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, so do, do you have to program this in? Is this something they can learn?
20:32 Speaker 01 There's a whole field called machine ethics that looks at can you program ethics into machines? And it turns out that's really, really hard because we don't even fully understand.
20:41 Chuck Nice? We haven't programmed ethics into us.
20:43 Speaker 01 Yes. So.
20:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Can't program something that you ain't got yourself.
20:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I would prefer maybe not to create robots that have to make those kinds of ethical decisions. But there are people who are, who are trying to solve that problem.
20:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, and, so, but it would also be a way, if some, so let's get back to the concept of soul. A religious person would say the soul gives you a sense of right and wrong and purpose.
21:09 Chuck Nice? Purpose, right.
21:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And these sorts of things.
21:12 Chuck Nice? And that was the idea with Bishop. Bishop didn't have a soul, so if it meant that bringing back this life form to Earth that could potentially wipe out all humans, it does make a difference because it's in the interest. Right, it's in the interest of experimentation and exploration, so who cares?
21:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I think this is people's greatest fear about scientists going astray.
21:31 Chuck Nice? Yes, without a doubt.
21:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, will that be the hardest thing to program into robots? A soul?
21:39 Speaker 01 I mean.
21:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's three lines of code.
21:43 Chuck Nice? Well, Japanese actually believe that certain things have souls.
21:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Tell me about the Japanese.
21:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, so like there's this Japanese roboticist who creates these very, very lifelike androids. Like he's made one of himself. Hiroshi Ishiguru is his name and.
21:57 Chuck Nice? Ishiguru.
21:58 Speaker 01 Ishiguru and and like it it seems that in, you know, eastern cultures that have a history of Shintoism and and believe that, you know, even objects can have a soul, like they have funerals for sewing needles, for example, it seems that they're more.
22:12 Chuck Nice? What?
22:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
22:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That must have been a badass sewing needle. He would have given it a funeral. That must have sewn some good stuff.
22:20 Speaker 01 See?
22:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Darned a lot of socks. Poor needy, we knew him well.
22:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Needy, is that? Needy, that's what we called him. That's your needy the needle. That's your nickname. Yes, exactly.
22:31 Chuck Nice? So so tell me, I I was unfamiliar with this, so keep going.
22:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, and and we don't have that concept in in more Judeo-Christian society. We have, oh, things are alive and have a soul, things are not alive, don't have a soul. And so there's this idea.
22:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Only humans have soul.
22:43 Speaker 01 Or they're only humans, yeah, depending on, you know, yeah. But that's why some people say that the Japanese are much more accepting of robots and this idea of having humanoid and android robots around because they're like, hey, that's cool.
22:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Are they also more accepting of robots in the uncanny valley?
23:01 Speaker 01 They might be. Again, like I said, the empirical testing on the uncanny valley has kind of been mixed. So there's not a good scientific basis for it, but anecdotally, yes.
23:12 Chuck Nice? Is it part of the fact that in their culture, they have a greater need for robots? I mean, it is clear that they have, like in Japanese healthcare, they don't have enough people and you have a a great advancement of robotics in that particular arena.
23:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, isn't it? Are you confusing robots with automation?
23:34 Chuck Nice? No, I'm talking about actual robot care. I mean, and different, like for instance, in a hospital, like for the delivery of certain things, a robot will do that.
23:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Rather than.
23:45 Chuck Nice? Rather than orderly, right, you know, so, for instance, or just just even go outside of healthcare, hotels that you go to where they have robot check-in and it'll be like a Tyrannosaurus Rex will check you into the hotel.
23:59 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Really?
24:00 Chuck Nice? Yeah, you know, a robotic, a robotic.
24:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Just for fun.
24:03 Chuck Nice? Because, yeah, because it's a novelty, that's how much into robots they are that we are not. You know?
24:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, so it's, so it's, and what about Shintoism enables that? Or empowers it?
24:15 Speaker 01 Well, some people would say that that makes them more willing to accept robots as this sort thing that's alive but not really alive.
24:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, oh, so the, the simple element of inanimate objects having souls? That alone would be sufficient?
24:30 Speaker 01 So that is one reason people think the Japanese are more accepting of robots. Another reason is, like you said, the need as robots come more into these shared spaces and people interact with them more, people just get used to them. And then there's also the fact that their science fiction and pop culture tends to be less dystopian when it comes to robots. Like, they have Astro Boy, they have these positive stories.
24:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I grew up with Astro Boy.
24:51 Chuck Nice? Astro Boy bounds away on his mission today, rocket high to the sky.
24:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How come I don't remember that?
24:59 Chuck Nice? Because I just made it up. No, I'm joking. That was the actual song.
25:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I, I remember Astro Boy. Yeah, all the, and there was, well, there was that Speed Racer, there was a lot of sort of early anime.
25:08 Chuck Nice? That was the early Japanese anime.
25:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That made it to American television. And, yeah, it was all very, very happy stories.
25:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:14 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And...
25:15 Speaker 01 But we have a lot of Terminator and stories of the robots taking over. They have less of that.
25:21 Chuck Nice? That is true.
25:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We are so messed up here.
25:23 Chuck Nice? So, so are, are, is the Japanese culture a good bellwether for the global acceptance and trajectory of robots?
25:33 Speaker 01 Not necess, I would say not necessarily. I think that maybe the ways that they will want to use robots are different.
25:39 Chuck Nice? Okay.
25:39 Speaker 01 Like, the fact that they like androids, and I don't really think that we do in Western society.
25:45 Chuck Nice? Right on, yeah.
25:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But it'd be interesting to see if all countries have equal access to this technology, what they'll come up with relative to their own cultural needs.
25:53 Speaker 01 For sure.
25:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, Anthony Daniels, we're featuring my clips with him. He has an interesting perspective on what makes C3PO more human than a robot.
26:08 Chuck Nice? Ooh.
26:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Does his perspective, because he, he was, he is C3PO.
26:13 Chuck Nice? Cool.
26:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So let's check it out.
26:15 Speaker 03 George came up with this idea of this kind of figure, this Art Deco figure. Then he employed Ralph Macquarie, who made this life-changing painting that I saw of the character. And then Liz Moore, the sculptor, turned that into 3D and made this beautiful face that people recognize. And interesting, I only just realized the other day, because I was trying to cheat in Photoshop.
26:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because some robot faces are just scary. And this is actually very, it's got curiosity in it, and it's, but you want to know what he's thinking.
26:52 Speaker 03 Because he clearly is thinking. And partly it's that sort of wide-eyed, almost babyish stare with big eyes. And what was interesting, Liz had actually, and I never realized it until recently, created something that wasn't machine perfect, it wasn't symmetrical about a center point. It is actually, as in a human face, I tried to flip it in Photoshop, to double it up to make it perfect. And it doesn't work, because he is asymmetric. And that is one of the clues, I think, to his humanity.
27:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's an interesting philosophical point, because there's been research on symmetry, and there's a whole off-ramp from that research that says, let me, it's not an off-ramp, maybe it's an on-ramp, that a little bit of asymmetry brings interest to a character, to an image, to a painting, to art.
27:42 Speaker 03 Perfection, there's nothing more to say. It's like, somebody did it already.
27:46 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right, right. Now, just between you and me, you do have a very symmetric face. Let me just stare at the camera here.
27:53 Speaker 03 I personally don't, if you cut me in half, if you cut me...
27:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Here we go.
27:57 Speaker 03 It is not symmetric.
27:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, you are so symmetric.
28:00 Speaker 03 Would I like, I'd probably like to be, but it's too late now, I think. We have to go with what we've got.
28:10 Chuck Nice? Were you hitting on C3P?
28:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, I was just saying. His book had a picture of his and the robot. And so I put the other half of him next to his head. And it was him, I'm saying.
28:23 Chuck Nice? But what a genius design tactic to actually purposely put in asymmetry.
28:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Tell me about perfection.
28:30 Speaker 01 I mean, I hadn't heard about this asymmetry thing before. That's really interesting. But one of the tricks that a lot of robot designers use in social robotics is to, you know, if you're gonna give it a face, don't make it as human-like as possible and don't give it too many features. Like, don't necessarily give it eyebrows or a nose. Just eyes is enough. Things that we automatically respond to, like he was saying, like the big eyes, the babyish face, things that we kind of evolutionarily respond to are the best, the best design tricks.
29:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, okay. Right, because babies, their head grows only by a factor of three and the body grows by a factor of five or six. So babies have a disproportionately large head to their body.
29:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, I pushed one out of me. Tell me about it.
29:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
29:23 Chuck Nice? You should have just built it in the lab.
29:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, you had the power.
29:27 Chuck Nice? You have the power. You don't have to do, you don't have to do it. You don't have to biologically recreate, okay?
29:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The rest of us, we'd do that if we could. Yeah, so I think that the argument from evolutionary biology standpoint, at least what I learned from my colleagues here at the American Museum of Natural History, here's a commercial, is that in order to prevent mammals from killing their children, the children have to look cute.
29:54 Chuck Nice? Yeah.
29:55 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And so the, not that everyone would kill their children, but I'm just saying.
30:00 Speaker 01 I would.
30:01 Chuck Nice? Yeah, most, most would.
30:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, it's not that you would want to kill them all the time. There are occasions in the arc of raising children where if they weren't cute...
30:13 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That that we go we go extinct a long time ago. Have you done research into what the what our relationship with robots says about us? Ooh.
30:24 Speaker 01 A little bit.
30:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Emotionally?
30:26 Speaker 01 A little bit. I could talk about this all day, but it's kind of like, you know how when you go on a date with someone and they're really mean to the waiter and you're like, that's a red flag? Some of our research indicates that if, you know, you're mean or violent to a lifelike robot, that might say something about you as a person.
30:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh.
30:46 Chuck Nice? Wow, you know, that makes sense. It's, um, so the Boston Dynamics has these videos online of robots being abused. And I know clearly that that's a thing, that's not a person. And I gotta tell you, it is so hard to watch because they're hitting it with bats and they're kicking it and they're knocking it over.
31:08 Neil deGrasse Tyson? This is a robot that's trying to walk.
31:09 Chuck Nice? Yes, it's trying to walk. And basically they.
31:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I've seen those.
31:11 Chuck Nice? You've seen those? Yeah. And and and it's really disturbing.
31:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, people get really upset. Like, the first time that they put one out that looked kind of like a dog and they named it Spot and then they're like kicking it and it's like struggling to stay on its feet. People got so upset that PETA, the animal rights organization, was getting a bunch of phone calls and had to issue a press statement. And they didn't even take it seriously. They were like, yeah, we're not gonna lose any sleep over this. It's not a real dog. But there actually might be something there.
31:38 Chuck Nice? Okay.
31:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so would you preemptively, I mean, is this like, is this like, what's that movie?
31:48 Chuck Nice? With Tom Cruise?
31:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, yeah, The Minority Report. Is this how you would pre-diagnose someone's propensity to? You sort of already said so because in a date, someone behaves in a way that is, uh,
32:00 Chuck Nice? Right.
32:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? to someone who they have power over.
32:03 Speaker 01 I mean, it's stuff right now, robots are still really primitive and we're still able to like, mentally compartmentalized. But as the design gets more and more lifelike. I mean, we do definitely draw connections between animal abuse and child abuse in the same household legally. If you have a case of one, you look for a case of the other.
32:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh.
32:20 Speaker 01 And it's possible that-
32:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Strong correlations already established. Okay, alright.
32:24 Speaker 01 And if you have a robot that can like mimic pain and suffering and you enjoy inflicting that on it, like that might be an indicator that you might also enjoy torturing an animal. But we don't know. We don't have the evidence. This, this requires more research.
32:40 Chuck Nice? Alright, so it's certainly evidence that you're a dick. That's for sure.
32:43 Speaker 01 I feel like it kinda is.
32:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So it's interesting. So in the dating scene, these are like secondary cues. They can be really nice to you, but the waiter, not so much.
32:56 Speaker 01 If they kick the Roomba, it's over.
33:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Given the examples of the Boston Dynamics and people kicking it, and you feel the emotion for something that is not alive.
33:08 Chuck Nice? Right.
33:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Where do laws ultimately have to land with regard to rights for robots?
33:18 Speaker 01 Well, it depends. So I believe in evidence-based policy, so we-
33:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Really?
33:22 Speaker 01 Yes, I actually, I do.
33:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What's wrong with you?
33:25 Speaker 01 Unlike most legislators.
33:28 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Have you been checked out? Have you?
33:30 Speaker 01 I know, I know. But like, really, like it would be nice to have some evidence.
33:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right.
33:35 Speaker 01 And if, if, for example, we found out that it was actually desensitizing to people to behave really violently towards life-like robots, then, you know, there's some question of whether we should regulate and say, "You're not allowed to do certain things to certain types of robots."
33:51 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Because it's fostering behavior that would be counter-
33:53 Speaker 01 Yes.
33:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To the interest of civilization.
33:55 Speaker 01 So to me, only if it actually has an impact on that behavior.
33:58 Chuck Nice? Actually, I, I, I have to say, that makes a lot of sense.
34:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That would be evidence-based legislation.
34:03 Chuck Nice? That's evidence, but that makes a lot of sense.
34:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Very hopeful there.
34:06 Speaker 01 But it's tough to research.
34:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So actually, my, my last clip of this segment, I talked to Anthony Daniels about robots today. Just, just to get a sense of what is, because, you know, that character dates from the seventies, right? So just what were his thinking about the interaction of humans and robots today? Let's check that.
34:26 Speaker 03 And one of the frustrations we have now with machines that pretend to be human, and certainly in Japan, there are companies working on humanoid.
34:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, do I lead the way on that? Every time I see a new robot, it's a Japanese robot.
34:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, they like that kind of thing. They've slightly taken it to their own, in the sense of social interactions with machines, human-to-machine, human cyborg relations. Indeed, George was there first. Oh, yes. Some of them, we're in early stages of real robotics, and we have to think what we want from that. But when you have something that pretends to be human and then sort of suddenly malfunctions, it's like, well, we're talking about Stepford Wives. Suddenly, I'm alerting to all these...
35:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You've given us a full review of 20th Century Robots here. This is great.
35:19 Speaker 03 And 20th Century film writers, script writers, who now very, I think cogently, have adopted this slightly outer world, nether world, where we are going, not in my lifetime, I hope, because I need the work. So, let's not move. Actually, I'll come back to that, because in Japan, it's widely known that they are looking for really human-relatable, probably, you know, bed-sized machines that people can relate to. But then you have to look at how you, what kind of figure physically do you supply?
35:58 Speaker 03 Because if it's too humanoid and it starts clicking, then it's a little scary, isn't it? If it's too mechanical, then you're relating to, I don't know, a can of fizzy drink. Like, where's the balance between who I want to believe I'm relating to? Because if I get too fond of you and you're a machine, it's not going to end happily.
36:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There are all kinds of off-ramps there for where that would go.
36:27 Speaker 03 Let's not go there. That's for the second series.
36:31 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, is there any thinking in your lab about...
36:36 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Human-robot relationships? Bonding?
36:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
36:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And where does that land?
36:43 Speaker 01 Well, for me and a lot of my colleagues, I feel like we're, as humans, capable of a lot of different types of relationships. And to me, the relationship with a robot isn't necessarily the replacement of a human relationship. It's more like how we would treat a pet, or it's something completely different and new. So it's not something that I worry about.
37:05 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But maybe not, but I think that's an enlightened outlook. It's not clear to me that that's where that's gonna go. I think people, you know, if people can have imaginary friends, then they can have a robot that-
37:19 Chuck Nice? That becomes a friend.
37:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That becomes a friend.
37:20 Speaker 01 Okay, but why is that bad?
37:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, no, I'm asking you.
37:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Is there some, should we?
37:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I don't mean to imply it's inherently bad. I'm asking you, have you guys thought about whether or not it's-
37:32 Speaker 01 Well, what I, what keeps me up at night isn't-
37:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's what we wanna know.
37:35 Speaker 01 Isn't that someone might bond or have like a friend as a robot. It's that a company is making that robot and maybe is using the robot to emotionally manipulate that person.
37:45 Chuck Nice? But that already happens in toys.
37:47 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, it's called advertising.
37:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Manipulate all the time, don't even take a robot.
37:52 Chuck Nice? Doesn't even take a robot, you're absolutely right. Big psychological brain screw called advertising. But no, I remember, um, the, uh, it was like a furry or a furby or something, but it's a little robot and it's like, and it says things like, "I love you," and "You're my friend," and it's like, you know, like, I was like, I would never get that for my kid. Like, that's the loneliest kid in the world that needs this toy that's like, giving it love and affection and reinforcement.
38:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There was an episode of The Twilight Zone, where there's a guy isolated on an asteroid somewhere. This is early, before they knew how, what space was really gonna be. But anyway, he's on an asteroid, and this asteroid apparently has a breathable atmosphere. But holding that aside, holding aside these compli-, these, these, holding that aside.
38:39 Chuck Nice? Right.
38:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay?
38:40 Chuck Nice? Exactly.
38:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They, he couldn't be rescued for like a long time and he's slightly going crazy. So they brought him a robot.
38:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A female robot, okay? And it says, "Turn here." And then she
38:56 Chuck Nice? Comes to life.
38:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Comes to life. Of course, it's played by an actual actress, but it doesn't matter. She's a robot. And then it's They're companions. And they're there for like, a year. And then the rescue mission finally comes. But there's no room on the ship. For her!
39:16 Speaker 01 No!
39:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wow! This was a deep story!
39:19 Chuck Nice? Oh, I love it!
39:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh my gosh!
39:21 Chuck Nice? Don't do tell what happens.
39:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? They said, "Either nobody gets back, or we're going back without your companion." He says, "No, but she's this."
39:29 Chuck Nice? I love her!
39:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Guy takes out his gun, shoots her in the head.
39:34 Speaker 01 What?
39:35 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And then the springs come out and the thing, and it said, "Let's go."
39:39 Chuck Nice? Who does that?
39:40 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It's in the show!
39:41 Chuck Nice? The guy in love with her? Or what?
39:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, no!
39:43 Speaker 01 Another guy.
39:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, the other guy who's trying to save his fellow astronaut.
39:47 Speaker 01 That was so cruel.
39:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? To remind him that she's just a robot. So, so, talk to me!
39:54 Speaker 01 I mean, robots can fill a void like that. They're already being used as an animal therapy replacement in nursing homes, because we can't use real animals. And so you bring in this baby seal robot that gives you the sense of nurturing something, and people become very attached to them.
40:08 Chuck Nice? Wow!
40:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, so I'm asking about the ethics of the story I just shared with you.
40:14 Speaker 01 Oh, well, I mean, I think it's unethical to shoot lady robot.
40:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, but
40:24 Speaker 01 That must have been psychologically damaging for him.
40:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Otherwise, they all die. Because there's only one seat on that rescue ship.
40:31 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, yeah, okay.
40:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the construct.
40:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
40:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And you're an ethicist, talk to me!
40:35 Chuck Nice? Why couldn't she sit on the outside? She doesn't breathe there.
40:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, good point!
40:38 Chuck Nice? They could've strapped her on. Strapped her to the bottom of the ship!
40:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:44 Chuck Nice? You know!
40:45 Speaker 01 Thank you. Now we don't have to resolve the ethical issue.
40:48 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right! Oh my gosh! Chuck solved that problem!
40:54 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, but tell me, how would, where? Can it be unhealthy, though, this bonding that you're talking about?
41:01 Speaker 01 It can be, yeah. I mean, if it's being used to manipulate someone, or if they're bonding with something. So it sounds like she was meant to be a tool, and they didn't anticipate that he would bond with her this much.
41:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes.
41:13 Speaker 01 And this happens in the real world. This happens with soldiers bonding with their bomb disposal robots. Where they treat them like pets and they get really upset if they get broken.
41:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Particularly if they save your life a dozen times.
41:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. So Peter Singer has written about soldiers actually risking their lives.
41:29 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The Princeton philosopher.
41:32 Speaker 01 No, so there are two Peter Singers. Peter Singer, there's a Peter Singer who has written a book called Wired for War. About military robots.
41:41 Chuck Nice? Oh.
41:42 Speaker 01 And apparently soldiers have risked their lives to save the robots that they work with.
41:47 Chuck Nice? See, they're actually missing the point of that robot.
41:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, or the people-
41:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A robot is to save their lives.
41:53 Chuck Nice? Right, exactly.
41:55 Speaker 01 But you kind of bond with something if it saves your life, though, and I don't think the people who deployed that really anticipated that response.
42:03 Chuck Nice? Interesting.
42:04 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, so here's the question then, if you're gonna make it empirical. There's the risk to his psychological health, having no companion for a year. Versus the risk to his psychological health of having a companion that you put a bullet through her head.
42:20 Chuck Nice? Right.
42:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Which of those is worse?
42:22 Speaker 01 I mean, not having a background in psychology, my guess would be-
42:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Ethically.
42:27 Speaker 01 I mean, you know, we get pets and we know they're gonna die, and this is a similar thing, like-
42:33 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's true. All right, we gotta land this plane. We have a whole other segment. Wow, okay.
42:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're gonna take a break. When we come back, more of the relationship between humans and robots on StarTalk.
43:00 Chuck Nice? Hey, we'd like to give a Patreon shout out to the following Patreon patrons Leon Galante and Tyler Miller. Guys, thanks so much for your support because without you, we couldn't make this show. And if you would like your very own Patreon shout out, make sure you go to patreon.com/stargtorkradio and support us.
43:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? We're back, StarTalk. We're exploring the relationship between robots and humans. Yes. Featuring my interview with Anthony Daniels, who recently published the book I Am C3PO. Ooh. Yeah. And we have with us as sort of expert commentator Kate Darling. Kate, reintroducing you to those who, whoever comes in only in the third segment, I don't know who that is. Animals, that's who.
44:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, anyway, thanks for bringing your MIT lab perspectives for us. And I was delighted to learn that Anthony Daniels was affiliated with academia. Hmm. Let's check it out. Maybe I shouldn't call you Anthony Daniels, I should call you Professor Daniels. This is, I'm fundamentally an academic, so my radar hurts up.
44:25 Speaker 03 Well, you can call me Professor, but I know where you're going, because I'm not a professor. I am a kind of visiting professional at Carnegie Mellon.
44:34 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Carnegie Mellon, one of the leading institutions in computer science and robotics and everything, you know, automated, yeah.
44:41 Speaker 03 But I, years ago, I kind of got connected with it, because of curious circumstances, through the Robot Hall of Fame. They invited me, it's an institution in the Science Museum there in Pittsburgh. They contacted me, would I come and accept an award for C3PO to be part of their exhibit? Yes, of course.
45:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? How could you not?
45:03 Speaker 03 But on the way there.
45:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So where is the Hall of Fame?
45:05 Speaker 03 It's in the center of Pittsburgh, it's in the Science Museum.
45:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, very good.
45:11 Speaker 03 And for instance, you know, they've got, they've got C3PO, they've got R2-D2. They've got a machine that can pot a ball every time, get that hoop every time.
45:21 Neil deGrasse Tyson? A basketball?
45:22 Speaker 03 A basketball. It can do it mechanically every time perfectly.
45:26 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No matter where you put it in the, or just from that one spot?
45:28 Speaker 03 I think, yeah, it's cheating, isn't it? You're rubbish, isn't it?
45:32 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know.
45:33 Speaker 03 And they've got the, one of the original arms of that original, could pick up an egg and put it there and just do that all the time. They've also got.
45:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Oh, so they have the history.
45:43 Speaker 03 They've got the history.
45:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And at the time, that would have been quite remarkable, to get a machine to do anything.
45:47 Speaker 03 It was the first, it was the first, what was the industrial robot there was.
45:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? There it is. And it's got to be able to pick up an egg and not break it.
45:55 Speaker 03 Not break it, but also put it exactly to replica. And, you know, the definition of a robot has changed now from the early Asmovian days to where we are, a machine that can do something kind of that's useful, just doesn't need a human to do it. They also have, for instance, a room as large as this, which is a medicine dispensary, which is apparently far, far more accurate than having a human dispenser in a hospital. It's dishing out the drugs, but in a good way.
46:25 Neil deGrasse Tyson? If you visited that Hall of Fame, let's assume they have all robots, what would be your favorite robot, Kate?
46:30 Speaker 01 My favorite robot? They only have real ones, right? Like not science fiction, well, no, C3PO is in there. Is Wally there? I like Wally.
46:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wally!
46:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wally, that, you're allowed, even if they, even if they just have a drawing of Wally. We'll give you Wally. You're like, well, that's cute, I like that. Okay, how about you?
46:48 Chuck Nice? Uh, Alien Covenant, which wasn't the best movie in the world, but Michael Fassbender.
46:55 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Hot robot.
46:57 Chuck Nice? Hot robot.
47:00 Chuck Nice? Uh, but not as hot as, um, what's his face in AI. He was the male sex robot.
47:07 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
47:08 Chuck Nice? He's gorgeous. Um, God, did I just go gay for robots?
47:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You totally did.
47:12 Chuck Nice? I totally did. Anyway, Michael Fassbender plays two robots. He plays himself. He plays Walter, who has no emotions, but then he plays Walter's evil twin, who does.
47:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? And they're both robots?
47:25 Chuck Nice? And they're both robots, but the one without emotions, believe it or not, easily manipulated by the one who has emotions, because when you're evil, you can do evil. But when you don't have any emotions and you're, and you, and there's not-
47:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You're susceptible.
47:38 Chuck Nice? You're just susceptible to anything.
47:39 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Wait, so that's your favorite robot?
47:40 Chuck Nice? Yeah. Yeah.
47:42 Speaker 01 Which one?
47:43 Chuck Nice? The evil one.
47:46 Chuck Nice? I got it. I can't lie. The evil one is my favorite.
47:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Damn.
47:50 Chuck Nice? Yeah. You know why? Because I don't have it in me to be that. And I think in some, I think maybe if I did, I would feel differently.
47:57 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Maybe you need it to complete you.
47:59 Chuck Nice? Ooh, wouldn't that be cool?
48:01 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So at what point do you think about the good and evil that a robot might or might not do, either because they're programmed to, or be because they learn it on their own?
48:12 Chuck Nice? Right.
48:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. I don't think we think about it in terms of inherent good or evil, but more, how is the technology being used?
48:22 Neil deGrasse Tyson? By those who should know the difference between good and evil.
48:25 Speaker 01 Yes.
48:25 Chuck Nice? Right.
48:26 Speaker 01 I use humans.
48:27 Chuck Nice? But see, now apparently at some point, these machines will be programmed by algorithms written by people, even if they're written by other machines, written at some point by people, and good and evil will be kind of inherent in that algorithm.
48:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's gonna be a whole mess of gray.
48:49 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Thank you for this, thank you. Thank you for those hopeful, those hopeful words.
48:54 Speaker 01 I'm very, very hopeful, yes.
48:56 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, I had to take the conversation there. Okay. The future of AI infused in robots. Let's see what Anthony Daniel says.
49:08 Speaker 03 I am a little frightened by AI, and you're quite right. I come in to deal with the talks of the students with an objective eye. That I don't really understand much of the science, but I have an outer perspective. And gradually through practice, you know, I'm enjoying virtual reality, augmented reality, all these sort of things that are gradually bringing the theatrical user, if you will, the entertainment user into the scene. So you're not just a sit back participant, you are actually involved.
49:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So maybe the gradualism of this prevents anyone from even noticing the day that AI takes over.
49:46 Speaker 03 I think kind of that's already happening. But in the world of entertainment, which is what the Entertainment Technology Center is about, the growth in involving entertainment is very marked, you know, with all these headsets coming on to the Leap Motion and all that kind of thing. But in a world where robots are going to industrialize jobs and take jobs away from human beings.
50:09 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Which they've already begun doing.
50:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, we'd better look to what humans are gonna do apart from twiddle their thumbs.
50:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Interesting. So let me ask you now then.
50:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Whatever you were not thinking about evil in the moment, how about evil in the future? How about AI turning evil? How about, have, have, let me ask you a tighter question. Has AI as portrayed in film?
50:38 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Gone the right places that we all should be thinking about.
50:42 Speaker 01 No.
50:42 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Or they're missing something?
50:43 Speaker 01 Yes, they're missing a ton. And I love science fiction. I think that science fiction opens people's minds to thinking about what's possible. But we have so many dystopian stories of robots taking over that people are fearing robot uprisings. When that's very premature and we should be worried about other things that are happening right now.
51:02 Neil deGrasse Tyson? But you didn't say that it wouldn't happen. You just said it's premature.
51:06 Speaker 01 Well.
51:07 Chuck Nice? That's funny.
51:08 Speaker 01 People worry about robot uprising?
51:10 Chuck Nice? Right.
51:10 Speaker 01 Not yet. Not for at least another two years. Right. Not yet.
51:15 Chuck Nice? That's so 2027.
51:17 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, so tell me, so what, where should we be focused?
51:20 Speaker 01 Well, there are a lot of issues right now with privacy, data security, supplement versus replacement of human ability with, you know, reinforcing racial, gender stereotypes in the design of these technologies. Like, all of this is happening right now. There's autonomous weapons systems being developed. There's things we should be concerned about that aren't the robots becoming smart and taking over the world. I think that that one also tends to be a lot of rich white dudes worry about that one. Because they don't have to worry about the other stuff. They're just like, my only danger is that a robot is gonna kill me.
51:57 Chuck Nice? Right, got you.
51:58 Speaker 01 I don't have to worry about like facial recognition, holding me up at the airport.
52:03 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Sociologically insightful.
52:04 Chuck Nice? You're right. That makes a lot of sense.
52:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Plus, you've seen the racial sinks in bathrooms.
52:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:12 Neil deGrasse Tyson? The racist sinks.
52:13 Chuck Nice? No, I don't know about this.
52:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, you know about those?
52:16 Chuck Nice? No.
52:16 Speaker 01 They can't see black hands.
52:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah.
52:18 Speaker 01 And we've done this with all types of technology because it's all white dudes building it.
52:23 Chuck Nice? And so, right.
52:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, I just thought it was the sink didn't work. You put your hands on it waiting for the water, because it's an automatic sink. And nothing's, oh, maybe that sink doesn't work, so that I go to another sink. Then I wave my hands some more, and eventually, you know, it'll hit. But if, so if you do the experiment, you put in a darker surface or a lighter surface, it's reflecting.
52:40 Chuck Nice? Reflecting the light.
52:41 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Reflecting, reflecting the light. Right. So what you're saying is, white men. Say it, white men.
52:47 Speaker 01 White men, because there's also a lot of gender stuff that happens.
52:50 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Right, right. We'll design things thinking that they are the model of what it is and should be, and capturing their concerns.
52:58 Speaker 01 But it's also not their fault. Like, we all view the world through our own experiences. And so the problem is that we don't have diverse teams building technology.
53:05 Chuck Nice? That's really where it is.
53:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? It is their fault if they're not hiring you. Or Chuck.
53:10 Speaker 01 Or Chuck. They need to hire Chuck, really.
53:13 Chuck Nice? Can a black man have clean hands? Trying to stave our barrel and backs.
53:20 Chuck Nice? Damn.
53:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yes, sir, you're hired. But we don't want any trouble.
53:30 Neil deGrasse Tyson? No, but you raise a very important point. If, if, I'm stereotyping here, but if white men are programming all of the code that will be the future of AI, it could have remarkable, remarkably biased consequences.
53:45 Chuck Nice? As, as an unintended consequence, right?
53:47 Speaker 01 You're speaking about this as though this is in the future, but this is actually happening right now.
53:53 Chuck Nice? Well, got you. Listen. Yeah, I know, that's why my hands are dirty.
53:58 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Chuck ain't clean his hands, and he don't know when.
54:00 Chuck Nice? Oh, God. Thank God for hand sanitizer.
54:06 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, so how about this? Let's, let's try to land this plane.
54:09 Chuck Nice? Okay.
54:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? What do you think is our largest ethical dilemma going forward?
54:14 Speaker 01 I think the thing I worry about the most is that a lot of AI, the way it's built right now, relies on data collection. They need massive amounts of data. And so I worry about privacy, because there's no incentive to curb that right now.
54:26 Chuck Nice? Interesting.
54:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Well, because if you want to know all about humans, you want, got to know everything they do.
54:31 Speaker 01 But then other people will also have access to that data. Governments will, companies will, and that's what concerns.
54:36 Chuck Nice? It's already happening in China, where they're collecting information privately, but then the government forces them to turn over that information. Including facial recognition that happens on just the streets of, of, of, of the cities. Where they're like, yeah, all that camera data.
54:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Yeah, how, how to identify foreign nationals, if you want to round them up.
54:55 Chuck Nice? Right, right, exactly. So, yeah.
54:57 Speaker 01 And so how do we lean into, because I do think there are so many positive use cases for this tech. So how do we lean into those positive use cases and curb some of this stuff? That's, that's a challenge.
55:07 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Don't ask us that question. I'm asking.
55:10 Neil deGrasse Tyson? I didn't bring you here to ask that, no.
55:12 Speaker 01 If I had an answer, then my job would be, you know.
55:15 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Over.
55:16 Speaker 01 Yes.
55:18 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Alright, so, uh, hmm. Let's get some parting thoughts. Chuck, what's your parting thought here?
55:23 Chuck Nice? Uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really, uh, I'm really disturbed by the fact that there are racist sinks, man. I'm sorry. I did not know about that at all. And this has happened to me. It's like, I feel violated by sinks now. That's all I can think about. I'm sorry.
55:45 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Okay, sorry to take you off, off the rails there, Chuck. So Kate, give me, give us something hopeful here. Reflecting on it all.
55:55 Speaker 01 So, you know how people are sometimes nice to robots and then they feel silly about it? Like, they'll say excuse me to their robot vacuum cleaner. Or they'll like say please or thank you to Alexa, the Amazon's assistant. I don't think people need to feel silly about that because I think that what that is saying is that their first instinct is to be kind to another. And so what I really, really love about robots is that they are kind of a reflection of our own humanity, in a way.
56:27 Neil deGrasse Tyson? You mean our interactions with the robots?
56:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, our interactions with them.
56:30 Chuck Nice? That's cool, that's cool.
56:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:32 Chuck Nice? Yeah, I like that. So if you're a good person, a robot will tease that out of you.
56:37 Neil deGrasse Tyson? So, uh, here's what I think. Not that you asked, but.
56:41 Speaker 01 We don't care, but go ahead.
56:44 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Says the media lab professional.
56:46 Chuck Nice? Why don't you treat, why don't you treat him like a robot, damn?
56:52 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That's the real side of who we got here. I think, and I don't even know if I have foundation to think this way. I think the apocalyptic scenarios are overplayed. I think we always, we always deal into our base lowest.
57:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Fears. Mm-hmm. Because fear tends to always override our joys. That's natural, I think, for survival, right? You can, you know, if you're not afraid of something and it kills you, then
57:23 Speaker 01 Then you're dead.
57:24 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Gone is the gene to be afraid of stuff that will kill you, right? So you're taken out of the gene pool. So I think it's been overplayed. My worry is that our distraction with the evil prevents us from thinking more creatively about the good. Hmm.
57:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:43 Neil deGrasse Tyson? That robotic AI can bring to this world. And I don't, I don't want to lose out on the creative solutions that they can bring. So, uh, so Kate, I put it entirely on your shoulders. Yeah. Fix the problem. Because this office is not called the Media Lab. This is just Neil's office. Right. All right. What the customer crib. We're going to send you back home, back to your, back to your peeps, and we want you to solve this problem.
58:10 Speaker 01 Challenge accepted.
58:11 Neil deGrasse Tyson? Excellent. Chuck. Always a pleasure. Good to have you. Kate, thanks for coming down from Boston.
58:18 Speaker 01 Thank you so much for having me.
58:20 Neil deGrasse Tyson? All right, and you've been watching, possibly listening to this episode of StarTalk, Robots and Humans. And I just want to thank Kate and Chuck for doing the show. Absolutely. As always, I bid you to keep looking out.
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