Presenting the 'Real Good' Podcast

Hey StarTalk fans! This is a special presentation of Real Good, a podcast from US Bank. It's a show all about people helping other people. If you like what you hear, head on over to their feed and subscribe today.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey StarTalk listeners, Chuck Nice here. And today, we're going to do something a little bit different for you. While it might feel like we're living in some crazy and imperfect times, that doesn't mean that there aren't some great people out there trying to make a difference in this world. And that's exactly what the Real Good Podcast is trying to highlight. So today, we've decided to share with you an episode of the Real Good Podcast, right here on the StarTalk channel. Their fourth season just began, so if you like what you hear, head over to their feed, hit the subscribe button, and tell them we sent you. StarTalk, not necessarily Chuck Nice, but you could say I sent you too. Well, enjoy.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  This is Real Good by US Bank, a podcast about helpers.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  So much of what we say at Girls Who Code is that you can't be what you can't see. So I know when I stand in the role I have today, with a PhD, with the title CEO, and with any accolade that folks are kind enough to give me, I remind our young people that this is but a step away for you. The dream is right there, you're living it.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  I'm Faith Saly. Our first episode dropped into your podcast feeds in the summer of 2020. The world has changed immeasurably since then, but our mission has remained the same. Every season, every episode, we've strived to show you that while our world is an imperfect place, there are people out there trying to make it better. Like our guest today, Dr. Tariqa Barrett, CEO of Girls Who Code. Our current moment is one of wake-up calls. We've come to big realizations in the past few years about what needs to change if we want to create a more equitable world. And it starts with making space for those voices that have been historically silenced and excluded, giving them a seat at the table.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  There's something else that defines our current moment in history: technology. Advancements in tech have opened the door to endless possibilities we couldn't have imagined 10, even five years ago. From medicine to trans- To national security, the innovation we see from the tech industry is exactly the brave, forward thinking we need to create real social change. Let's not pat the tech industry on the back just yet, though. In terms of creating space for underrepresented voices, tech has a long way to go, especially when it comes to gender diversity. Women and non-binary people have only recently been invited to conversations about their

• 2:40Speaker 01

  own exclusion in the field. Just imagine the innovation and creativity that would emerge from a truly inclusive tech industry. That's where there's real potential for leadership in change making, and that's what Tariqa Barrett is working toward at Girls Who Code. As CEO, she's on a mission to close the gender gap in tech, and she's not just preparing young girls for successful careers, they're learning how to demand the opportunities they deserve. Greg, I am always excited to talk with you, and I'm excited also today we get to talk with Dr. Tariqa Barrett, who, as you know, is the CEO of Girls Who Code.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  Hi, Faith. You know, I'm so excited about today's episode, and Dr. Barrett is somebody I have great admiration for, and, you know, not only because of our partnership with US Bank and Girls Who Code, but she has such an amazing career and her work is so important. I have so many questions in so many areas I want to explore with her today.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  And before we meet her, I have a topic I want to explore with you.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  So, these Harvard Business School researchers and the Kennedy School, they wanted to do a study on the impact of the message that we, most of our community, gives children about, oh, success is working hard. Because if you think about it, and this had not really occurred to me until I was reading the study, if you think about it, that could suggest to a kid that the people they see who aren't successful didn't work hard.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Which is not necessarily true and can promote further inequality.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Listen, there's so much wrong with that.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  And it actually is part of what we talk about. This is what this is part of what we talk about like.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I know I know I'm preaching to the to the choir here, but let me tell you how this study was really cool. So they they took these kids and they and they had them do this thought exercise. They said there are two aliens and one alien has a coin and one alien doesn't. And the researchers thought about the three kind of basic attributions we have for success. So one is hard work, which is a message I think most American children get all the time. Right. Two is innate ability. So truly things that are beyond your control, but are, you know, raw intelligence or athletic prowess. Right.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  And three is luck, where you were born, who your parents are, where you got to go to school, all that stuff.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  So when they told the kids that one of the aliens already had a coin. So they already have a coin and the kids get to give a coin to either one of the two aliens, the one who already has a coin or the one who doesn't. So in essence, they can rectify inequality. Of course, that's not how it's presented. So when they tell the kids that the alien who has the coin got it because it, I don't know what pronouns aliens use. It worked really hard or was really smart or really strong. The kids gave that alien the coin again, two thirds of the time.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Right. Feeling that they that alien deserved it.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, they quote unquote earned it.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what what do you think happened when they told the kids, oh, that alien who has a coin? It got it because of luck. What are you going to do with your other coin? What do you what do you think the statistics were for what they did with the coin they had to give away?

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Well, now they gave it to the one who didn't have a coin.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  75% of the time.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  You know, it's that I used to believe in the whole meritocracy thing, too, especially when I first joined corporate America. Like, you were supposed to believe that, you know, if you worked hard and you just sort of had this great performance capital, that that's how you got ahead. And we all know.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Because it's seductive. Because we like to think that hard work is within our control. And who's going to say you're a bad parent for telling your kids to work hard? But it's like one sliver of the pie chart.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  One sliver of the pie chart. Absolutely.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  And so what struck me, and by the way, if I wasn't clear before, we can edit this part out. To be clear, 75% of the kids gave their extra coin to the other alien who didn't have work.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  And so for me, as a parent and as a human being, there are two big messages for me. One is that stories matter so much. What we tell our children about how people succeed, which implicitly suggests why other people don't, right?

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Context.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Context. It has to be an absolutely full picture, right?

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And second is that success, and this, it made me think about our guest today. Success isn't just giving kids an opportunity to work hard. It's showing them things at which they can work hard. Success is about, like, before you can work hard, you have to have possibility and access.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  You have to have possibility and access. And by definition, a meritocracy, you can't have a meritocracy if you don't have equality of opportunity. By definition. It doesn't matter how hard you work if you aren't given the opportunity to perform. And to demonstrate your talent. And so that's the, that's at the core of what we're talking about. That's at the core of what equity is about. It is about, that's why we talk about it in the context of access. And so these are the things I really want to talk to Tariqa about and why the work that she's doing at Girls Who Code is so incredibly important is because these, these, these girls and young women have so much to contribute. And if businesses are going

• 8:49Speaker 03

  to grow, you have to have innovation, you have to have diversity of perspective, you have to have diversity of experiences, which allow organizations to be more creative and solve contemporary problems and grow.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Well, don't stand on ceremony. I hardly need to tell you. You can, you can dig into that with her.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  All right, Greg, I see our, our new friend, Dr. Tariqa Barrett, CEO of Girls Who Code, has just joined us. Tariqa, thank you for joining us today.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Faith. It's so nice to be here.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And I'm, I'm coming to you from the Upper West Side. Are you, are you in your office or you're in Brooklyn right now?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Uh, I am in our Manhattan office, so not too far from you.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Nice. Okay. And, and Greg and Tariqa, this is, this is not part of the official podcast, but hello to each other. This is the first time you're meeting, right?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  It is. Nice to meet you, Greg.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  You too, Tariqa. I've heard so much about you and I'm really grateful for the partnership we have. I'm coming to you from Minneapolis, not from Manhattan, so I'm the outlier here.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Nice. Nice. Nice to meet you, Greg.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Tariqa, we're gonna, we're gonna jump right in with a question for you that really comes from Greg because he and I were just discussing the need for diversity in technology and in innovation. So Greg, take it away.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  Well, Tareka, the conversation we were having, and I'm not exactly sure how we arrived at this, but we were talking about the real business case around diversity and why it's so important. And I said that I felt, you know, one of the most critical aspects of it is the notion that it brings innovation and it brings creativity. And, you know, that's at the core of what every organization is using as a catalyst for growth. And without diversity, it's impossible to have innovation. And through innovation, you know, various perspectives and experiences. And that's why the work that you're doing and the team

• 10:58Speaker 03

  at Girls Who Code is so incredibly important. And so I thought you might talk a little bit about this aspect of diversity connected to innovation and why it's such a critical part of the work that you do.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Greg, for that question. It's brilliant. It's exactly why we do the work that we do every day at Girls Who Code. And, you know, innovation is central. When you step back, you have to realize that the issue of diversity in tech is frankly already impacting us in our daily lives. And, you know, I want to problematize it a little bit and kind of name that unless we do something right now to change that, this issue that we have is only going to get worse. And, you know, you talk about innovation. Technology meets us at nearly every touchstone in our social and political culture, if you think about it. Security, voting rights, healthcare. And, you know, we're far past the point where

• 11:55Speaker 02

  we can opt out. And we know that tech has had this incredibly positive and democratizing effect. But we also see the places where not having voices at the table has resulted in not having the kind of innovation that's going to actually change our world. I want to point to a couple of negative examples to start, and then I'll talk about some of the positive ones. But if you think about it, there was a case not too long ago of a New Jersey man who was wrongfully arrested and actually spent 10 days in jail because facial recognition software had signaled him as someone accused of committing a crime. We know that facial recognition software notoriously fails to identify the faces of black people correctly.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Think about what it means, knowing what we know about interactions between black communities, law enforcement, the justice system overall. On an individual level, this situation could have, you know, turned deadly. And on a societal level, could have contributed to the crisis of mass incarceration. Greg, when you talk about innovation, when you have young people, especially young people of color, designing and building and being, frankly, change makers and the creators of tech, then we don't have those kinds of things happening.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Chirica?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  I want to jump in because in a previous season, we got to talk with a young woman whose job is data-driven identification of implicit bias. And she started out at a famous dating app company. And she was the only woman in the room who noticed that, I think the specific example was that there were Asian men were being chosen, I never know whether you swipe left or swipe right, because I'm an old married lady, but whatever.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  They were being, they were being chosen, identified as potential suitors, less than men of other colors and races, right? And she said to the people who created the app, hey, is this a, is this a tech problem? Is this a software problem?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Or a design problem? Or is this a user problem?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  And they looked at her like, wait, what? Sorry. I'm sorry, I don't understand.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  No, Faith, I love that example.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  But it's, these are real world examples.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  They are. And think about it, Faith, had she not had a seat at the table, this issue may never have been raised, right? Tech, as we experience it right now, is the result of the priorities of a privileged few who share often a singular perspective. And it's played out again and again.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Right. And I've heard you in other interviews describe them, you know, in general as the white guys in hoodies. And when you put it this way, it's actually amazing how much we have innovated with very, with very little diversity.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Like, can you imagine what's going to happen?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  When these girls who code grow up.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  That's right. And, you know, we are so fortunate that this is actually our 10-year anniversary. We've served 500,000 students and we've taught them computer science, 115,000 of whom are college and workforce-age young women. And it is imperative that we actually work so diligently to cement those pathways into tech. We need those voices. It's actually why we launched this campaign not too long ago called "Make That Change" with this powerful new message for our community that, you know, right now, Faith, there's so much of, and Greg, like this binary where you either are this, you know, tech person, this coder, who's making money and doing whatever you want to do, or you're helping your community. And our

• 15:48Speaker 02

  message was, no, you can actually, through seeking out a career in computer science, you can change your community and the world by also changing your personal, professional, and financial trajectory for you and for your family. You know, our young people, and especially our young people of color, are really grappling with this dichotomy, right? They have these icons of tech who are like going to, you know, the moon or going wherever while we have a country that is struggling. And they don't always understand that the narrative around tech doesn't have to be negative. And that's why our programming that reaches girls as early as third grade, all the way through early workforce, really

• 16:30Speaker 02

  allows them to see themselves as those changemakers, as having the kind of influence that they can have in the sector. Congratulations.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Tariq.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Sorry, go ahead, Greg.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that's an important point, Faith, to congratulate Tariq on that part of it. I also wanted to, you know, it's interesting, you talked about, you know, this dichotomy that young people are going through. And I think corporations are really entering a phase where we actually have to reframe this work of diversity and inclusion of, you know, at US Bank, we have one of our core values is about doing the right thing, and diversity is one of our core values. And I've said recently to a number of our leaders, we have to reframe diversity and inclusion. Not only is it the right thing to do, but it's actually the smart thing to do.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  It's actually smart for our business. And you can, there's actually, you can do good while you do well as an organization. And this notion of inclusive growth, I think...

• 17:32Speaker 03

  You know, young people are starting to understand that they can bring all of these things that are important to them and they can bring both their, you know, personal values can align with corporate values. And I think companies are going through this incredible change, at least those that want to be successful.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Are going through it.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Greg, I couldn't agree more. And I love the way you're framing it because I always say the companies who are going to really have an impact are the ones who want to be first and not last. And the ones who are looking at this problem and thinking about the solutions in a completely different way. Think about the landscape we have right now. Today, women make up only 26% of those with computing jobs. And the numbers are even worse for Black and Latinx women who hold roughly 5% of all computing jobs. When you ask folks, half of women in tech say they lack female role models. A third say they have unequal growth opportunities compared to male colleagues. And when you look at leadership, women make up just 5% in the tech industry. And forget about women of

• 18:32Speaker 02

  color. We're talking about being almost completely absent at the senior level with zero Black or Latina women CEOs of Fortune 500 tech companies. And, you know, when industry, when the companies you're talking about, Greg, actually look at this issue of diversity completely differently, then they start thinking about talent in a completely different way. And I think it starts to translate and get operationalized as employers actually broadening the scope of where they look for strong candidates, talking to their teams, especially recruitment. One of the things I've found to be profound is the disconnect

• 19:13Speaker 02

  between the highest levels of leadership in a given organization where very often the vision is one where, yes, we're all about changing the face of talent. Yes, we're going to bring folks into tech who we've never had before. But then there's a disconnect with the recruiters actually bringing folks in. And, you know, we know that those top universities get all the attention from recruiters. But what about community colleges and state schools? You know?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Tariqa, I've heard you talk about this as our obsession with meritocracy.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And, you know, when I think about the fact that I went to Brooklyn College, a CUNY school. These companies would never have given me the time of day faith and Greg, I would never have been hired. And, you know, the pandemic has given us like very few favors or benefits, but at least one thing that has been heartening for me, I think it's really pushed companies to rethink accessibility and flexibility as they interact with talent, right? These are students who have lost the ability to connect with potential employers directly. And for us, it's about making sure that companies think this way, but we've also been really pragmatic.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  You know, since the pandemic, we hosted two all-virtual hiring summit and, you know, they featured almost 2,000 young professionals, half of whom come from historically underrepresented backgrounds. And if you can picture this, we have dozens of companies that, you know, were open to the unique qualities of our students, but to be candid, many of them had not even thought about, you know, the kinds of students who were in front of them in that moment. And these are young people entering, you know, frankly, gosh, is it the third year of school in a pandemic, juggling work, school, caregiving, and graduating into a workforce that is deeply uncertain. And if you think about the tenacity and the resilience that these young people had to

• 21:05Speaker 02

  demonstrate to get there, these are the folks who are going to change these companies. And we had one partner, this example I am never tired of sharing. This partner hired 17 young women from one event alone. Now, you might be thinking that that's a small number in the grand scheme of things, but you can imagine that they came with a level of intentionality and purpose in terms of transforming their company. And not only did they hire them, they created this phenomenal ecosystem of support where it was mentorship, it was, you know, coffee chats and opportunities for these young women to demonstrate leadership. And for me, that kind of example, Greg, to your question, is the kind of thing that like

• 21:50Speaker 02

  companies who want to be first and not last and rethink talent and frankly disrupt the status quo and the racist and sexist things that have buttressed, you know, our entire economy. That's the good work. And so I was so energized when that happened for our young people.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  And that's, Greg, you and I were just talking about how success, you just begin with hard work. So Tariq is talking about these girls who work hard and then they have to be shown doors that open to them and be, I'll use your word, buttressed by mentorship and advocacy. I want to, I want to pause here. Greg, I'll let you finish that point, but then I want to go all the way back and get, and get Tariq's origin story. Okay.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, go, go all the way back. But I want to, you know, when you say mentorship, I got to jump in because you know how I feel about that because, you know, mentorship is, is certainly important, but it's, it's insufficient. What everyone needs in these workplaces is they need an advocate, you know, faith, as we were talking earlier. They need advocates and they need a sponsor. And the difference is, is a mentor doesn't have to have any, any stake in your success. The mentor doesn't risk anything in having coffee with you or sharing guidance. They don't, they don't risk any of their own political capital and whether you're.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  I'm waiting for you to say skin in the game. Come on.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Skin in the game.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Give me a sports.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I didn't want to use the typical, I really, you know, but I gave you like political capital. I mean, what do you want? That's like some of my best stuff right there. But a sponsor actually is that person that is providing advocacy for you when the doors close. You know, we were talking about this, Tariq, earlier because we were talking about the notion of a meritocracy and how I used to believe that was actually the case when I first entered to a workplace.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  And then I realized that there were humans involved and it was like very subjective and. You know, working hard and being good at your job is not enough to be successful. But what you actually need is someone who's advocating for you. You need a sponsor. You need somebody who actually has, I'll use the word, I'll use the phrase, faith, skin in the game tied to your success or not. Because they're putting their own political capital, they're putting their own social capital on the line for you. And that's, that's part of that ecosystem that you talked about that's necessary. You know, I like to say companies too often hire for diversity, but what they reward is assimilation.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  And we've got to get away from that. And we've got to allow people to sort of bring their unique superpower to these organizations because that's how you get the innovation that we're all looking for.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Tariqa, we're gonna back all the way up because anybody who's heard this conversation so far understands how inspiring you are and committed you are. I want to know how, like how, how you came to be Dr. Tariqa Barrett. By the way, do you ever go by doctor?

• 24:54Speaker 02

  All the time, Faith. Don't, I'm just kidding.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. So sorry. Can we start this over?

• 24:58Speaker 03

  You should have been saying that. We should have been calling you Dr. Barrett.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  It's Dr. Barrett if you're nasty.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  I am joking. Listen, wow, this podcast is definitely twists and turns I did not expect. I always, actually, I can tell you a funny story. I was in a meeting once when I worked at the New York City Department of Education Central. And I am not one of those people where I'm like, no, no, no, you have to call me doctor. But here I was in a conversation. I was the only woman in the conversation and the other, one of the gentlemen kept being referred to as doctor and me miss. And I was like, okay, let's just stop this meeting right now. And I promise you, it was the most awkward moment because I don't think the person even knew what to do. But I absolutely, I'm like, okay, if we're using the honorifics, then don't play any games. It's doctor to you, sir.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  On her ethic. It's not on him ethic. I have heard that story before. I have a friend who's quite a famous doctor and she has told me she only insists on it when she's on a panel because everybody will call her Judy and they'll call all the other doctors who are men, doctor whatever. Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  It's amazing how that happens, but yes.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  So Greg, I think you know now, I get to call her Tariqa, you have to call her Dr. Barrett. Let's proceed. So among all the many things you have achieved, you were named by Cranes as one of the 50 most powerful women in New York in 2021. Greg, I think you forgot to nominate me. So let's, let's get going for 2023. But, but how does that word, how do you feel when you put the word powerful on, Tariqa?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness, Faith, what a question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. I definitely would never even think of power necessarily associated with me or my name. But the thing that I think I definitely have always had a sense of is my own agency. And I am so blessed to have come from frankly, a background where that was instilled very early on. And, you know, as I sit now and I think about how amazing it is to be CEO of Girls Who Code, one of the largest girls organizations on the planet, and to be able to do this work every day on behalf of a community that I deeply believe in and understand and, you

• 27:16Speaker 02

  know, remind me so much of the challenges that I was facing when I was younger. You know, there's so much that goes into, I think, the fabric of what got me to where I am now. You know, I think everyone knows this because I say it all the time. You know, I'm Jamaican American. I was born and raised between, you know, Brooklyn, New York and Kingston, Jamaica.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  That's so cool.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  It's very cool. And I didn't have the typical story.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Can you pull out, can you pull out a great Jamaican accent whenever you want to?

• 27:43Speaker 02

  It's very, it's very easy to conjure because that's what happens for me. I was born and raised in New York and had, you know, a rich Jamaican culture that enveloped me, especially, you know, being in Brooklyn and you can think about it, West Indian Day parades, all the things. But what was unique is that I then went to Jamaica for high school, which doesn't happen usually. It's usually you're born in Jamaica and then come to the US. I was the reverse. So it was culture shock. But definitely a wonderful experience growing up in a third world country, completely different culture and experience. And you know, I'm blessed to say that I stand on the shoulders of just generations of inspiration.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  I can fondly remember, you know, gosh, my mom from our early days and my grandmother, they were like serial entrepreneurs before I even knew what an entrepreneur was. They had such a sense, and you said power Faith, but they felt that if they could think it, they could do it. And the reason that this matters and is powerful, my grandmother actually dropped out of school in the sixth grade back in Jamaica after her mother died to help, you know, work on the family farm and raise her seven younger siblings. And you can't imagine that a woman who came from that experience, where her own education had been cut short, could somehow still manage to instill

• 29:07Speaker 02

  in her four children the notion that education would be the future, that it could pry open, you know, every door, every opportunity. And you know, that kind of-

• 29:17Speaker 01

  And her granddaughter has a PhD and is a CEO and has just so many acronyms and initials.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Listen, you're so kind Faith, and I mean honestly, I don't think she could have fathomed that in just a number of generations, but that is what, you know, fuels me and makes me realize that the kind of change we want to see for our young people, it's not even a generation away. I have stories of young people in our programs for whom this is the case too. And you know, you ask about my origin story, you know, I come to tech, you know, a really different way. I come to this space as an educator and an activist, and I've always been passionate about issues of equity in education. And I mentioned that my mom, she's been an inspiration. She taught me not just the power of education, but also to go into spaces, right?

• 30:07Speaker 02

  To see the kind of work that was necessary but wasn't getting done, and to have the agency to believe that I could actually be the change that's needed. And you know, when I had a chance to work at the New York City Department of Education, where I gave you that anecdote of not being called doctor, you know, I got a chance to actually put these lessons into practice, and it was a blessing of all blessings. I got a chance to work with kids who frankly, many people were no longer interested in. Many of them were poor black and brown kids who looked a lot like me when I was their age. But who were also significantly off track academically with no shot of graduating on time. And I had a chance to leave this-

• 30:46Speaker 01

  What did you tell them? When you would meet a kid like that-

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And could identify that that other people had sort of dismissed them, what would you say?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Gosh, these kids were wonderful. I don't think, you know, I also, because of the kinds of programs that we created for them, I believe that they also stepped into their own agency. Most of the time, Faith, they were inspiring me. You know, when I would go to graduations at some of these transfer schools that would support kids who were really off track academically through trimesters and all kinds of interventions, I'd be crying like a baby because their stories were so powerful. And I would be very quick to share my own in terms of where I was coming from because so much of what we say at Girls Who Code is that you can't be what you can't see. So I know when I stand, you know, in, you know, the role I have today with a PhD, with

• 31:36Speaker 02

  the title CEO, and with, you know, any accolade that folks are kind enough to give me, I remind our young people that this is but a step away for you. You are ready. The dream is right there. You're living it. And frankly, because of my deep faith in education, like, I've always, you know, said, "Don't squander it. You have this opportunity, use it." And when I had a chance to be at the DOE, I actually led the team that designed and launched the first high school ever in New York City focused on software engineering. And that, I knew, could be a game changer. But the thing that was really interesting about that opportunity was that as the school

• 32:17Speaker 02

  was originally envisioned, it wasn't really going to be open to every kid. It was going to be a quote-unquote "screened school," which would mean that kids would have to test in. And this was an inflection point for me, leading this project. I knew that if we were going to rely on test scores, that our kids of color would be at a disadvantage that would be insurmountable, right? We know why. Poverty, disinvestment in low-income neighborhoods. We know racial bias is real. And so, my journey in that moment was all about- Fighting against this notion of screening and rallying support to open the school to any student interested in programming, even if it risks turning off some of our key stakeholders,

• 32:59Speaker 02

  this mashup of venture capitalists and local tech entrepreneurs.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  How did you convince, I presume you won that battle?

• 33:06Speaker 02

  I did.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  How?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  I did.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Were you, in the movie that I'm writing, and by the way, I'm casting you in it, you're in a room, probably in front of a lot of white people.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  And you have this chance to make this big speech? Like, what did you say?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say that in the movie, it's one speech, but in real life, it's multiple, right? And I remember, we were together in a room, and I kid you not, another colleague of mine said to the room of folks who were all about starting this school, right? Before we landed on the kind of school it was gonna become, this is just when it was all pie in the sky. And the colleague said, "How many of you have a child in the New York City public school system?" And that room of white, you know, men in tech, not one hand went up. So, it's a reminder, that was one kind of conversation, and sometimes, it was about finding validators, right? Folks who were leading incredible schools throughout the city, principals who were

• 34:06Speaker 02

  changing lives, who were teaching black and brown kids, and reminding this room, like, "Hey, it doesn't have to resemble this elite school over here," because that was the model. They wanted it to look like Stuyvesant High School. And, you know, to the credit of the DOE, we said, "No." We were like, "We're not gonna replicate another one of these inequitable situations." So, a lot of it was finding validators, a lot of it was presenting data, and a lot of it was having hard questions and challenging, frankly, racist assumptions, right? And, again, I can say, I'm so proud that many of the folks who were clear that this was the right way to go, who were hesitant to create this school...

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Are now believers and spokespeople and champions for issues of equity. So sometimes when you do this work, it goes further than you even imagine. And getting that school off the ground, for me, was one of my proudest accomplishments as an educator, but it was also, Greg and Faith, an important lesson, right? That as humans, as hard as this is, we have to be able to exist always at the intersection of opportunity and bravery, right? Because if we're given the chance to disrupt the status quo, we have to seize it. And, you know, when I think about that experience, it was almost, kind of almost like a blueprint or an early bit of exposure that led me to this moment here at Girls Who Code, where

• 35:32Speaker 02

  I'm now the CEO, driving this work forward in an even bigger way.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  I love that you used the word bravery. And I know it's part of, part of the values that Girls Who Code, it's part of your value statement. And, you know, there's a part of it that I really love that you touched on, and it's the notion of persistence. And in doing this work, I can't think of anything more important than having the persistence, because this work is, you know, it's every day, and you've got to have incredible stamina and ambition, all the things that I know you stand for. And it strikes me, Tariqa, just how there are so many similarities between, I think,

• 36:20Speaker 03

  the tech industry and the financial services industry. And I talk a lot on this podcast, Faith and I have spent a lot of time talking about, you know, truth and reconciliation for the financial services industry. And I like to say that I think truth and reconciliation are actually sequential. And what I mean by that is our industry had to go through its own reckoning of how we've contributed, how the industry has contributed to so many of the disparities that that we're all working so hard to fix. How do you think and what changes do you think are necessary within the tech industry? And, you know, how do you think about this, the industry itself going through this whole truth and reconciliation about where we've

• 37:05Speaker 03

  come from? And are things getting better? I think, you know, in many cases, I've seen statistics that say we're getting worse. How do you think the industry is responding to some of these challenges?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  And before you answer, Tariq, I just want to jump in with this very illuminating statistic to Greg's point. In 1995, 37% of computer scientists were women. Today, it's only 24%.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  You're both not wrong. And Greg, your question is such a good one and how tech is responding. And, you know, to be honest, the other thing, too, has frankly been the layering on of the pandemic, as well as the movement around racial, you know, reckoning. And those have both led to, I think, more introspection on the part of tech. But I would say that the struggles that we've already been talking about remain true. Like, those numbers, Faith, are abysmal. We can't believe that we're still going backwards. Like, you know,

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Why? Why?

• 38:10Speaker 02

  So there are a couple of reasons for it. I would say, when you think about it, women are making gains in almost every other STEM area, the, you know, all the other STEM areas, except for computer science. That's where we're actually going backward. And I think it's twofold. It's definitely this culture and representation piece. We say it all the time, that you can't be what you can't see, because, you know, frankly, our girls, gosh, before they even, you know, are 10 years old, double digits. They are inundated with these images of what a computer scientist looks like and does, and these are notions that resonate with them their entire lives. So we're talking

• 38:52Speaker 02

  elementary school, middle school, high school, and beyond. And, you know, if you think about who we're taught about even, like even today, it's still the Mark Zuckerberg's, right? It's still Steve Jobs, it's still

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Elon Musk.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Bill Gates, right? Elon Musk, right? Right now. They're not hearing about Catherine Johnson or Mary Jackson, who you'll recall from the movie Hidden Figures.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Teddy Lamarr.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Right. Jean Bartik, Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper. They're still, the culture piece is very real, right? And that's why we're so, you know, we have a laser-like focus on teaching girls computer science and building this incredible pipeline that we now have that's 500,000, you know, girls and non-binary students strong. But we know that this issue on the industry side continues to be, you know, pernicious. It's problematic, right?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  So, wait, you say "we." Okay, the three of us in this conversation know. Do you think this is a current, urgent conversation in Silicon Valley among boardrooms that are mostly men and mostly white men?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  I would, that's such an interesting question because I can't say for sure. I do know that in the conversations that I have had, I've had the privilege, for example, of being a part of White House conversations around issues of cybersecurity, where you have the most senior leaders of Fortune 500 companies in the room. And based on what I have been in, you know, conversation around, I believe that they are deeply aware of both the problems, but also the, you know, we talked about this much earlier, the competitive advantage or disadvantage they're at when they don't think about issues of diversity in a completely different way.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  But I want to say that we still have this disconnect in ambition and actual, you know, how do you operationalize this so that things start to change? We know that half of women end up leaving the tech industry by the age of 35. Most of them because, so we have this revolving door problem, Faith, where, you know, they don't see other women, you know, role models, right? The mentorship, Greg, that you talked about, they're not seeing that. They're not being promoted. There may not be policies that support caregiving and having a family. And so it has to start. At Girls Who Code, we try to encourage our companies to look very deeply at their own practices. And you have to interrogate, what are they doing to alienate our young people?

• 41:24Speaker 02

  And especially our young women and people of color? And what are they doing to prevent them from being hired in the first place? And there is no magical blueprint for this type of process. But it means that they have to be in active conversation about work culture. And this notion-

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Is that, Tariqa, is that part of, it sounds to me like your challenge or strategy in broad terms is twofold. One is to find girls, identify girls, help them see that they can code, that this can be part of their future or at least part of their present. Number one, right? And train them.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Number two is to, is to turn to the tech industry and say, look what you have here. Look at all the opportunity. Are both of these things what your mission is at Girls Who Code?

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You know, our North Star is closing the gender gap in new entry-level tech jobs by 2030. But it's all about inspire, inspiring, educating, equipping young women and, you know, folks who identify as women or non-binary with these skills. And we do operate on those multiple planes, Faith, that you talk about. We teach girls computer science and it's the thing, we activate their interest. We get them excited and engaged as early as third grade. We even have board books for babies, frankly, because we recognize that cultural peace is so important. And, you know, it's changing hearts and minds. It's shifting the notion of what a computer scientist looks like and does.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  And then my side hustle, which I'm constantly amplifying, is what we're doing now, which is, you know, having conversations, finding amazing platforms like your podcast to be able to say to industry, "Hey, you gotta care about this." Every room that I go into, I promise you, I'm that person who says, "What about our black and brown young people? What about, you know, onramps into these incredible opportunities?" Like, right now, you can't have a conversation with anyone in the tech industry that isn't focused on cybersecurity. We are at a risk, you know, as a nation. We are going to have 700,000 unfilled cybersecurity jobs. And our safety and security is at stake.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  And, you know, for me, it's all about making sure that our young people, and our most historically marginalized young people, do not get left behind when these cyber opportunities open up. And that's why at Girls Who Code, we stay nimble. We started, literally, this summer in response to this, our first-ever advanced course in cybersecurity that's self-paced, that students can take on their own. And so, we stay nimble and hungry and urgent about this. And part of what I try to do is get leaders to also be as energized and as compelled as we are as an organization, to see this as vital and necessary to their own bottom line and to their own success. It's critical.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's gotta be so, it's gotta be so exhausting, because on the one hand, you have a mission to fulfill, and at the same time, you're trying to educate companies and, you know, hire people who hire other people to sort of embrace this talent. Because I get so frustrated when I hear people, leaders, talk about they can't find the talent.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Oh, all the time.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  You know, it just...

• 44:50Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  And I know it's gotta frustrate you to no end, because you're sort of equipping these young girls and young women.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  And if you think about it, Greg, like, let's just, even if we objectively make no assumptions about what quote unquote "training" any young person has gotten, do we not know our young people to be the most brave, resilient, resourceful? Ask anyone younger than you to figure out something on your phone. Ask anyone younger than you to help you figure out what's going on with your computer. It's done. They are inherently more tech savvy than we are and inherently more connected. And even if they haven't done a lick of Python, JavaScript, CSS, HTML, it doesn't mean that they don't have that aptitude or growth mindset to be

• 45:38Speaker 02

  able to do it. And so when companies start to recognize that unless they rethink their entire onboarding and talent development sort of process, they're going to leave so much talent on the table. And I think, again, it's going to be the companies who are like, yes, we get it, and we're going to invest in our young people who are going to be the most successful.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  And even org design, like, I think about, I'm sorry, Faith, I know you want to jump in, but I, you know, and even how organizations are structured, you know, historically, there, you know, there's been this hierarchy which, you know, really operates through control and power. And I think young people are really challenging, excuse me, organizations to function more like an organism, something that's a little bit more fluid, that functions through relationships and engagement. And I think companies are going to have to even think about org design and how we choose to engage with employees overall. I'm sorry, Faith.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  No, I agree. And I also think the other thing that's quite striking and very promising is that we have a whole bunch of young people who are rethinking whether or not these quote unquote "amazing" companies are the right companies to work for. And they're starting to say, why don't I build for myself? Why don't I do this? Why don't I actually think about an equitable company that I want to get off the ground? And that spirit of entrepreneurship is so inspiring. And I love what you're saying about how these young people have the potential to bravely disrupt these systems and the status quo within these organizations. And I think they're literally going to be the future.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And I think what you just articulated is the Girls Who Code set of values, which I love. I haven't heard these three things put together with an Oxford comma before. Bravery, sisterhood, and activism. I love it.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I want to point out that you've mentioned, you know, you casually and humbly mentioned White House conversations. Greg, I don't know if you know that Tariqa was appointed by Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas. She's on the Homeland Security Advisory Council.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Advisory Council.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Just another way that she's a baller.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  I'm not surprised.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  I just, you know.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Listen, I am so honored and honestly humbled. Those folks work so hard. And Ali Mayorkas is a wonderful human being. And the thing, just the sheer vastness of the portfolio, and I do not even pretend to understand, you know, 70% of what is being discussed around the nuances of every aspect of homeland security. But I go to that table very, very much with a laser-like focus on our community and making sure that everything goes back to workforce, everything goes back to opportunity for our young people, and especially our girls, you know, and young women, and especially our black and brown girls and young women. And so it has been just an honor to be there.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  But that's ninja stuff. When you can, when you can turn to your girls who are learning to code and say, you can, you can help be a part of homeland security.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  This may seem like a little bit of a leap, but I spent part of preparing for this interview watching the Doja Cat video.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Ooh, that's when I gained, that's right.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  That Girls Who Code put together. By the way, yes, I had to learn who Doja Cat was. Sorry.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Faith, you are, that is, that is, listen, my children would poo-poo that because that is when I actually gained some credibility in the eyes of my teenage children, when I told them that we were making the world's first ever quotable music video with Doja Cat. Which, by the way, just drop the mic, the notion that Doja wanted to work with Girls Who Code. We knew that there was no other answer but yes, because to think that you are a student somewhere out there, a young person, and then you're like, wait a second, Doja Cat's video is codable?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Even if you have no idea, you're like, wait, let me go check this out. My kids lost their minds.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Right, and the girls who were responding to it, and what I saw, they were like, this stuff is so cool.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Because of the creativity. Remember also, we still have these images, right? Where coding is boring. You know, young people are like, I don't want to do this because I'm going to be stuck in front of a computer doing X, Y, and Z. And yet they look at this incredibly dynamic and vibrant video with all the creativity. I'm going to change Doja's nail color. I'm going to change the background. I'm going to do all this stuff. That involves coding and computer science.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  That's the innovation and creativity.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Exactly, Greg. Exactly. So, that is so amazing.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Greg, you already knew who Doja Cat was, right?

• 50:19Speaker 03

  Well, if I didn't...

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Give me a yes or no.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Well, of course.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  It's okay. I am not... Look, I'm being brave and vulnerable right now.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  We're only in season four, we gotta wait. That is so funny. That is so funny.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  With the far too little time we have left, I want to ask you, Tariqa, you have this audacious and fantastic goal of closing the gender gap in entry-level tech jobs by 2030. Looking at the calendar, it's like seven years away.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  What... If you had to bullet point it, what one, two, three things need to happen?

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I would say, one, we have to keep, you know, expanding and extending that pipeline, right? We can't take our eyes off the prize. We have to make sure that... We keep giving girls and non-binary students and young people and black and brown young people the opportunity to learn computer science because if we take our eyes off of that, we will not see the change that we need to see. The second thing that I would point to is that we have to cement pathways into industry for our young people. We can't let the worst pandemic of a century rob these young women of the work that they have done, that they have worked so hard at for this stretch.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  And so, a lot of it is really pushing to make sure that we have on-ramp programs. We're doing so much between hiring summits and work prep and leadership academy and technical interview prep so that our young people do not miss that opportunity, that they build those networks, those mentorships and those opportunities. And then, the third piece, I'll say, has almost like a two-parter. We continue to put out things in our culture that allow our young people to see themselves reflected in this tech industry. That is so critical. And the second part of it is that we continue to hold industry accountable for making sure that within tech, they're actively thinking about how they can do better. And that's like, people are doing it.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Like, I'll give another shout-out to the Homeland Security Advisory Council and Secretary Mayorkas. Every meeting, he says, he ends it literally with, "And we have to change the face of tech and cybersecurity." And when we all start thinking that way, we're going to see the change that we must have in order to have, frankly, tech that supports the diverse world that we all live in.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Just FYI, on this show, we call him Ally, Secretary Mayorkas.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  It's true. I've tried to call him anything else. He's like, "Nope, it's Ally."

• 52:59Speaker 01

  It's Ally. I want you to know that before I met you today, I said to my eight-year-old daughter, "Do you like coding?" And her face lit up. And she said, "I love coding." And I said, "Okay, tell mommy what it means to code." Because mommy doesn't really know. And but then I said, why? And she said, because when you're coding, you're in charge and you get to make the decisions. And if something doesn't work, you get to make a different decision.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so great.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, my gosh.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  She needs to come teach a course with us. This is amazing.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  That's the thing, right? Coding is this, I hardly need to tell you, Dr. Barrett, it's this metaphor for life. And these, these young women taking, being self possessed, right?

• 53:48Speaker 03

  Empowered.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Thank you for sharing your time and generosity of spirit here. I just want to say, I know that out of college, you had the same job as Barack Obama had as a political organizer.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Same job, same organization.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Can we dare to hope for a president, Dr. Tereka Barrett?

• 54:09Speaker 02

  That is ludicrous, but I love the energy that you're bringing. I don't think anyone looking at our current landscape would ever imagine that I would want anything. I literally pray every day and thank those who want to be involved with anything that resembles our, our politics right now. Seriously, like, we have to really honor them because folks who raise their hand in this moment, they are brave and truly special individuals. And I'm not talking about the folks who've already said yes, who were like, no, thank you, because there are many, many of those too. I mean, the folks who in their heart of hearts are trying to, to make change. I always think that they are really special. I have not thought about that, Faith, but I appreciate your faith in me.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Well, thank you for raising your hand in so many other ways. Tereka, it was, it was truly a pleasure. Thank you. And Greg, I mean, as always, thank you.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  As always, Faith, thank you.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Thank you both.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  It's a pleasure to meet you. Thanks for your partnership.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Such a pleasure. Thank you for, you know, allowing me and Girls Who Code to have this opportunity to be on this amazing platform. Thank you for everything that you're doing and just elevating, frankly, you know, these really important topics. So, thank you.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  A few weeks after we spoke with Tariqa, we were greeted with a fairly astonishing headline. The Girls Who Code book series, a middle grade series that features a group of girls who become friends in their school's coding club, has been banned in a Pennsylvania school district. We live in a world in which giving girls the tools to write their own futures in the tech space and beyond is seen by some as a threat. So if you didn't already think so, Tariqa Barrett's work of empowering girls in tech has never been more urgent. Thanks for listening to another episode of Real Good. If you like what you heard, subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. We'll see you soon.