Cosmic Queries – Climate Change at NASA with Chief Scientist Katherine Calvin

How does NASA combat climate change? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Chuck Nice answer questions about renewable energy, geoengineering, and how science is helping us battle the climate crisis with NASA Chief Scientist Katherine Calvin.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And today, it's a Cosmic Queries edition on climate change and what NASA has to say about it. And what NASA might be doing about it. And we've got here Chuck. Nice Chuck.

• 0:31Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil.

• 0:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, you think a lot about climate change. I've seen you do some philanthropic activities in this, in this place.

• 0:39Chuck Nice?

  I devote a lot of my time to trying to educate people through entertainment and other means about the climate crisis.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 0:47Chuck Nice?

  I call it that because it is.

• 0:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because sometimes you gotta make them laugh to have them listen, I guess, is that?

• 0:51Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you know, that's how, that's how I've stayed married all these years. Yeah.

• 0:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so while whatever you know and I know about climate is not the level of expertise we require to have a show based on that subject. And so, we combed the landscape. And we said, oh yeah, the recently appointed NASA chief scientist is also the NASA's senior climate advisor.

• 1:17Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 1:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Think of that. What?

• 1:19Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 1:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we've got her on StarTalk now. Katherine Calvin. Kate, welcome to StarTalk.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Thanks, and thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

• 1:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, excellent. I was looking at your, your background. So if my notes are correct here, you've been an earth scientist at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory's Joint Global Change Research Institute? Did I say all that right?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  You did. It's a lot of words, but yes. And I've been there, I was there from 2008 until the beginning of this year.

• 1:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I don't know if anyone told you, but it's got Pacific Northwest in it, but it's based in College Park, Maryland. Did someone make a mistake there?

• 1:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did I, did I, or did I?

• 1:59Chuck Nice?

  And by the way, they need a longer title, too.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure. There definitely could be some more words in there. No, it is, so the Pacific Northwest National Lab is headquartered in Washington State. They have a small group based out of Maryland on University of Maryland's campus.

• 2:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, gotcha, gotcha. That's where you were. Okay, so that's a, that's a good explanation for this. Okay, but your research focus on climate change, but especially where the human civilization...

• 2:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Influence it and is impacted by it. Is that a fair characterization of your professional profile?

• 2:33Speaker 02

  That's correct. I was looking at how human activities cause climate change and what climate change does to human activities.

• 2:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's quite a do loop there.

• 2:42Chuck Nice?

  It's a nice little feedback loop you got going.

• 2:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know. All right. So, so remind us all what just NASA chief scientist does. Cause NASA has a lot of scientists, but to be chief scientist, what does that mean?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  So my job as chief scientist is to integrate science across NASA to represent that science externally, including with other agencies, international partners, the public, people like you. And I also provide advice to the administrator on, on science.

• 3:15Chuck Nice?

  And what do you mean the administrator?

• 3:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The head person of NASA.

• 3:18Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The administrator. Right, right, right. And so, okay. And so now is this the first time the chief scientist has been a climate scientist? Cause I've known many a chief scientist and, and you know, many, all the ones I've known have been astrophysicists or, or planetary scientists. Is this the first?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  No, there was an earth scientist who research was on the cryosphere a while ago. So I'm not the first climate related person in this role.

• 3:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, I only just learned the meaning of the word cryosphere. That's the badass word. Chuck, do you remember what it means?

• 3:49Chuck Nice?

  Uh, it means everything frozen.

• 3:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, I love it.

• 3:53Chuck Nice?

  About anything.

• 3:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At any time.

• 3:57Chuck Nice?

  Including iced tea, ice cube, vanilla ice.

• 4:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Vanilla ice, they're in the cryosphere.

• 4:05Chuck Nice?

  It's all in the cryosphere.

• 4:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I love, I love that word. I love it. So, so, so Kate, we've got a cosmic queries format for this. So we're going to take questions from our Patreon fan base. These are our most avid of our fans and Chuck has all the questions and they're all on climate change. So Chuck, what do you have for us?

• 4:27Chuck Nice?

  So we might as well, let's uh, let's jump right into this with Mason. Mason says.

• 4:37Chuck Nice?

  I think his last name is Jar, so.

• 4:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mason didn't even give you his last name because he didn't want you to try to pronounce it.

• 4:43Chuck Nice?

  God, what a dad joke that was. That was so like, yeah.

• 4:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you are a dad, so that's legit. It's legit if you actually are a dad.

• 4:54Chuck Nice?

  If you are a dad, right? Yeah. I actually heard my children just go, man, stop. Stop it, bro. Okay, here we go.

• 5:03Chuck Nice?

  What are NASA's plans to combat climate change? Are there any long-term, short-term plans in regards to the rising levels of greenhouse gas emissions? I've read interesting things on huge towers filled with moss plants that could help filter the air. Is this something NASA may be helping with?

• 5:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow.

• 5:27Chuck Nice?

  Look at that.

• 5:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so I think, so Kate, isn't this on the scale of geoengineering? I mean, it's a whole other concept there. So other than give us data about what we're doing bad and possibly advising on what we should be doing, what is in the power of NASA to actually fix this?

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. So NASA, first of all, we observe the Earth from space. So we can provide data that helps inform decisions about climate change. And we've been doing this for decades. So we have a long array of data about things like vegetation or carbon dioxide or temperature to see how Earth is changing. In terms of how to reduce and to mitigate climate change, NASA has two roles in this. One is we do climate modeling, so we can understand what the effects are of different emission scenarios in the future. The second is we actually develop technologies that can help mitigate and adapt to climate change. So we have a sustainable aviation program that has been working on reducing fuel use and emissions from airplanes.

• 6:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Making them more, more efficient in all ways.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  In all ways, yeah.

• 6:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Aerodynamically as well as their engines. And, and I just gotta, I just gotta interject there, correct me if I'm wrong, Kate, but your climate group in NASA is based in New York City, is that?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  The climate modeling group is based in New York City at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, yeah.

• 6:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and they, and they are over. The restaurant that's featured in Seinfeld.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yes, they are.

• 6:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The building that houses that restaurant contains the Gutterness. Am I correct about that?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Yes, you are.

• 7:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right.

• 7:01Chuck Nice?

  What's the deal with climate?

• 7:05Chuck Nice?

  Who are all these people?

• 7:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so, so this isn't, this is encouraging, but how about these concepts of like moss towers or, or carbon dioxide scrubbers out of the atmosphere? Is this still science fiction?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Well, I think when you talk about removing carbon from the atmosphere, there are a number of different techniques in there. The most common one would be planting a tree. And so planting when you.

• 7:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What a concept.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  We've been doing it for a while.

• 7:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why, why did I think of that?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  But yeah, trees take carbon out of the atmosphere and that is one way of reducing carbon. I think NASA's role in this is really on observation. So we can actually look at the trees and measure how, how many trees we have, how, how they change over time. We also measure carbon dioxide so we can monitor how that changes over time.

• 7:54Chuck Nice?

  So a biological question, since you brought up trees. Is a tree the most effective plant that can remove carbon? Is there something that we could be planting in addition to or other than trees that would actually pull out more carbon?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  That's a, it's a good question. It's a complex question because it depends on the type of tree where you're planting it, what was there before. And so the effect of a planting of a tree on carbon depends on a lot of factors. Trees also change the way the earth's surface reflects energy. So where you plant those could also have an effect, not just from their carbon removal.

• 8:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So isn't it true that it's, it's not good enough to only think about the carbon dioxide in our atmosphere? Because the ocean has something to say about this, doesn't it?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's important. So the ocean absorbs quite a bit of carbon. So when we emit carbon into the, some of it goes into the ocean, some goes into the land and some stays in the atmosphere. Oceans also uptake heat. And so they play a really important role in climate change, both today and how that changes in the future. And so the more we can understand the oceans, the more we understand climate.

• 9:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But if I pull CO2 by whatever magic way out of the air, the ocean says, oh, wait, I can give you more CO2.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Well, there is a balance in that. So when you take, you move carbon from one pool to the other, the others will respond until they reach an equilibrium.

• 9:17Chuck Nice?

  Oh wow. Okay.

• 9:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you can take it out of the air and the ocean said, "Here's some more."

• 9:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're not getting away that easily. You put it in here to begin with, I'm just giving it back to you. I think that's that dialogue, right? Right? All right. So Chuck, what else you got?

• 9:38Chuck Nice?

  All right, let's move on to Sarah Perry. And Sarah Perry says this, "Hello StarTalk. Climate change has been a huge discussion for a while now, and I keep hearing scientists and politicians say that we're approaching a point of no return." I don't know why I said that like William Shatner. I don't know. A point of no return. Anyway, "We need to act now," is what they say. My question is, what exactly is the point of no return? Are we actually close to the point of no return? And what is close anyways? What is the tipping point for a major climate change? And how much time would that tipping point take

• 10:23Chuck Nice?

  to completely change our atmosphere and our weather? So...

• 10:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, what's up with tipping points?

• 10:32Chuck Nice?

  I'm detecting a very distinct skepticism in Sarah Perry's question.

• 10:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I get a total apocalyptic state of concern there. I read that differently.

• 10:44Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 10:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like, isn't it a tipping point? Are we there yet? When is it gonna happen? What can I do about it? It happened because it has a kind of manic flavor to it.

• 10:52Chuck Nice?

  All right, yeah, I see that.

• 10:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. All right.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Well, I think what's important to know is that we're already experiencing the effects of climate change now. So the planet has warmed, and along with that, we're seeing heat extremes. We're seeing increases in wildfire. We're seeing changes in precipitation and water cycles. And what the science shows is that as warming continues, those will increase. So we will see more changes in temperature, more heat extremes, more increase in the proportion of intense tropical cyclones, more wildfire weather. And so we'll see more and more of that as temperatures rise.

• 11:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so you're not thinking of it as a tipping point as much as we're just entering the gates of hell and systematically and, and, but I think the tipping point implied that no matter what we do, we'll never reverse it.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Right, and there are some parts of climate that are irreversible. So, things like ice sheet melt and sea level rise. Once, once an ice sheet melts, it's irreversible on the time scales that we're typically talking about. So, it can take centuries to millennia. There are other impacts though, like the heat extremes, that are reversible. If you can bring global mean temperature back down, you would reduce the heat extreme again. But it depends on the impact, whether it's reversible or not.

• 12:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I hadn't thought about that. There's a difference there because if you melt ice, you're not remaking that ice because we're not in an ice age. Alright? So, you raise the water level, you're stuck with that, but everything else, maybe we can get a handle on.

• 12:24Chuck Nice?

  What if we got 10 million battery operated refrigerators with ice makers?

• 12:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would work Chuck, I'm sure of it.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  I would need to do some more math on those numbers.

• 12:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we gotta do the math on that Chuck, before you bring that to the table. And it just pumps out the ice cubes out the back.

• 12:44Chuck Nice?

  It just keeps shooting out ice cubes.

• 12:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, they did it in Beijing Olympics, that, those mountains didn't have any snow on it. They said, let's, let's bring in some snow and some ice maker, some snow makers, so, alright.

• 12:58Chuck Nice?

  Alright, well Sarah, there you go.

• 12:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, but Chuck, you gotta remember, and there's no free ride in the world of thermodynamics. So, what, you needed energy to make the ice that your refrigerator was punching out the back door.

• 13:11Chuck Nice?

  So, even battery operated or solar powered?

• 13:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, solar could, solar would work.

• 13:17Chuck Nice?

  Okay, solar.

• 13:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think solar, so, yeah.

• 13:19Chuck Nice?

  So, solar power.

• 13:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you'd put them where there's very little sun, which is in the polar regions.

• 13:24Chuck Nice?

  There you have it. Yeah, yeah. You know, here's what you're saying.

• 13:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What?

• 13:29Chuck Nice?

  Think this through Chuck.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  I think it needs some research, yeah.

• 13:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, do a little, a little more research on it.

• 13:36Chuck Nice?

  Make that your dissertation Chuck.

• 13:41Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 13:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, let's see if we squeeze one more in before we take our first break.

• 13:44Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. Uh, hello Neil. What is keeping nuclear energy from being the mainstream when it's clearly a better, scalable option than most of renewable energies that we are currently using?

• 14:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nukes.

• 14:05Chuck Nice?

  Nukes.

• 14:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very cool. All right, we're gonna pick that up after the break. What role do nukes play in our future of climate change? How about that? Okay. And you got, you'll be ready for that one when we come back, Kate?

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Uh, not a direct answer, but an answer.

• 14:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll have an answer for you from Kate, from NASA, when StarTalk returns.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Chris Cohen from Hallworth, New Jersey, and I support StarTalk on Patreon. Please enjoy this episode of StarTalk Radio with your and my favorite personal astrophysicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 15:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk Cosmic Queries. We're talking about climate change and NASA with NASA's chief scientist, Katherine Calvin. Katherine, great to have you. In your academic pedigree, what did you do your PhD on?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  My PhD is in a department called Management Science and Engineering, but it was really applied math. So I was looking at, I learned how to develop mathematical models, to do things like optimization, and understand how to write a computer program using math to describe a system.

• 15:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this is something I think we don't have enough of in this world today, because everyone, you know, you go through the stovepipe field. I'm the expert in this one thing, and then somebody else is an expert in some other thing, and no one brings it all together when the whole world actually operates systemically, right? So, so we need more of you out there.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Well, that was a lot in my last job. So I view math and computer science as sort of a universal language. If you can write an equation, you can write a computer program, then you can then link it to any other kind of science. And that was part of what I was doing, was linking physics with ecology and economics and hydrology.

• 16:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, not enough of that, for sure, yeah. So Chuck, we last left off. Who asked this question?

• 16:20Chuck Nice?

  So this is Thiago Peria, Peria, from Portugal, by the way.

• 16:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Portugal, Portuguese, welcome, yes, yes. And that question was about nuclear power as an alternative source of energy to fossil fuels, possibly being our savior. So Kate, as a scientist, but also as a public servant, how do you weigh what the science tells you and what people want if what they want has a deep emotional resistance to a solution?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Well, so I can say is in my role as chief scientist and senior climate advisor, and similar to my role before, my job is to provide the science to inform that. And so the second part of that would be on the purview of someone else. But what we, science can tell you is what the effects are of a particular option you might be considering on a variety of different factors. So how does it affect emissions? How does it affect something else? And a lot of what the science I was doing before was looking at was what-if scenarios. So what if you do more of this or less of that? And what does that mean for?

• 17:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you model all this, you get to model that.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  And we just provide science-based information that others can use to make decisions.

• 17:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But if people are spooked by Chernobyl, they're spooked by Fukushima and old timers.

• 17:38Chuck Nice?

  The Hulk.

• 17:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Hulk. Radiation.

• 17:42Chuck Nice?

  Radio, yeah.

• 17:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, if they have some sort of spook, they're spooked by that from decades past.

• 17:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If we know, for example, that modern power plants are not susceptible to those problems, what do you do? Do you try to say, "Look, folks, warm up to this because that might be our only solution"? Or do you just take a step back from that, let the politicians worry about it, and still just pump the science into the dialogue?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think for me, with my background, I'm not a nuclear engineer or a nuclear expert. And so in this, I can only say what the kind of research I was doing was, which was we would include it as a portfolio of options and see what happens in different what-if scenarios. But I view the role of a scientist as to provide an unbiased characterization of any technology, regardless of what it is. So this is what we know about it, and try to provide as much complete information as we can, and very precise information. So this is how it affects this, or this is how it affects that.

• 18:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, that makes way too much sense. You're just making too much sense here.

• 18:41Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 18:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is America we're talking about.

• 18:44Chuck Nice?

  Who needs that? Who needs your measured response about what works and data empirical evidence? All right, let me ask for real. Do any of your models actually give us kind of...

• 19:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you asking this question, or is it a Patreon?

• 19:01Chuck Nice?

  No, no, no, this is a follow-up that Tiago actually had.

• 19:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're lying. Okay, go on.

• 19:08Chuck Nice?

  Do any of your models have a percentage mixture of what energy sources are best?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Not best. So again, science can give you information. Best is a qualitative word, right?

• 19:24Chuck Nice?

  Okay, say optimal, optimal.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  So what we can do is sort of look at what if you wanted to do, you know, limit warming to a particular level? What if you wanted to do this? And look at what worlds might be consistent with that.

• 19:37Chuck Nice?

  I got you. So when you say "what if," you're talking about if you want this outcome, this much carbon must be, you know, reduced, and these are the ways that you could do it? Is that what you're saying?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Right, so what some of the some of the reports on this that are really thorough are from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And so they that's where I would go if I was looking up something new in climate. And what they have looked at is if you, you know, future warming depends on future emissions. And they can look at, you know, how much can you emit of carbon dioxide and stay within a particular warming level? And then they provide some example pathways that are consistent with that. And those pathways would show you, you know, what sorts of emissions reductions would you need to do in order to get to a particular level. But it's very much what if? If you want to limit warming to a particular level, what is consistent with that? And what can the science tell you about that?

• 20:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That just makes so much sense.

• 20:36Chuck Nice?

  That does.

• 20:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We need more of this kind of thinking in government, for sure.

• 20:40Chuck Nice?

  In other words, we're doomed.

• 20:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Kate's the only one talking this way.

• 20:46Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly.

• 20:50Chuck Nice?

  We need more rational, evidence-based thinking. Oh, brother.

• 20:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Chuck, what else you got?

• 20:57Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. This is Jonathan Brown. Jonathan says, "Hello, Dr. Calvin. Hello, Dr. Neil. And hello..." It was like, yeah, hello, Chuck. Yeah. Really?

• 21:12Chuck Nice?

  "Could you please discuss natural climate change that may take place over thousands of years on Earth and how humanity directly accelerates or alters this process? I think one of the main arguments for climate change skeptics is that they think it's solely a natural process or cycle that has occurred and will continue to occur over time on Earth. And maybe that's true, or maybe it's not."

• 21:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just before you reply, Kate, I will not elevate their comments to the level of skepticism. It's a level of ignorance. Don't confuse skepticism with abject ignorance, okay, of how things work. Okay, Kate, take it.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  So there are natural changes in climate. Some of them are very long term. Some of them are short, like El Niño, La Niña. But what we see in the last 150 years is an unprecedented rate of change. And when the scientists have looked into what's causing that, it's attributable to greenhouse gas emissions. So the increase in greenhouse gas emissions since the 18, late 1800s, has led to this change in climate. And we can see this through a number of different ways. We have laboratory studies that show that increases in concentrations of greenhouse gases trap heat. We can learn from other planets about what happens when you have more greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere. We can also learn from models about what happens there. But what we see in the last 150 years is unprecedented,

• 22:39Speaker 02

  and the science has attributed it to human activity.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I heard something interesting, Kate, that if there is a silver lining, if there is a silver lining, what we're doing now to the climate will delay the next ice age.

• 22:58Chuck Nice?

  That, let me just say.

• 23:03Chuck Nice?

  Alex, I'll take what the hell for 500.

• 23:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The spirit of Alex, okay.

• 23:09Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  I mean, temperatures are going up now rather than down. But I think what's challenging is that the rate of change that's happening. So we're experiencing these impacts, and we're experiencing them at a very quick pace compared to natural climate cycles. And that makes it harder for ecosystems and people to adapt.

• 23:29Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 23:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I can tell you, if we do enter another ice age, whenever that is, the water evaporates from the oceans, and it snows onto the land, and then it just stays there because it never melts. And you'll systematically drain the water levels of the world, creating new oceanfront real estate.

• 23:48Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know, you sound like a supervillain right now.

• 23:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Lex Luthor, my next plan.

• 23:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, next question.

• 23:58Chuck Nice?

  All right, Jeff Johnson. Jeff Johnson wants to know this.

• 24:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you picking names that are easy to read?

• 24:04Chuck Nice?

  Of course I am.

• 24:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 24:06Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, lie about your name, but just give me some initials, people.

• 24:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Go.

• 24:11Chuck Nice?

  No, Jeff Johnson actually did write in and he said, hey, there's a lot of talk about terraforming Venus or Mars. But I am curious, what are we doing, if anything, to terraform our own planet? Does this fall under the realm of climate change initiatives? Quite a lot of our planet is desert or other harsh land types. Should we consider terraforming these places on our own planet?

• 24:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, if I can add to that question, Kate?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 24:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do deserts serve any role in the world?

• 24:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do they, like, you know, I don't think much of anything lives there, right? If we terraformed our desert, wouldn't that be beneficial to everybody? To humans as well as creatures and vegetation?

• 25:02Speaker 02

  So I think all parts of the Earth's system play an important role in the world that we're living in now. And anything that you change, you need to carefully consider what the effects might be. And that's one of the things that we do in climate science is try to understand these effects. A lot of, there's a lot of concern around desertification and land degradation. So that as you change, as precipitation cycles change, as you impact the Earth, it affects the terrestrial system. There's also, you know, deforestation or afforestation that changes the Earth's surface and how much vegetation that you have and what the world looks like.

• 25:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So afforestation means you had a forest over here, but now it's over there?

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Adding trees, so adding new trees.

• 25:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, adding trees, okay.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  And you could simultaneously deforest and afforest in theory, but we look at it as they're separate processes. One, you have fewer trees, one, you have more. But essentially, as scientists, what we look at is what would the effects of each of those things be? Either using models or laboratory experiments. And then at NASA, we observe that from space so we can see how those things change over time.

• 26:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So with respect to that and Jeff's question, they're wiping out forests in the Amazon. Is there any data that lets you know what that's going to do to the planet? And are there any models that say if we continue, here's what's going to happen?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Sure. So changing tree cover in general affects carbon. So trees store carbon and if you cut them down, you change the amount of carbon that the Earth can absorb. You also, if you burn them, you release carbon into the atmosphere. And so you're changing the amount of carbon dioxide, which we know carbon dioxide leads to warming. The other thing that happens is you change the reflectivity of the Earth's surface. And you can change water cycles. So in high latitudes, so in the Arctic, if you cut down a tree and then there's snow instead, you're changing how much energy the Earth reflects. In low latitudes, you change water. And so changing trees can affect temperature, both through changes in carbon and through other factors and have an effect on local warming.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  And we do study this. We measure it and monitor it. We do modeling based on this to try to understand what's going on now and what might happen in the future.

• 27:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, it sounds like you have like 100,000 million variables, right? From the reflectivity to the water cycles, to the oceans, to the land, to the rate that you're making it, the rate that it's pulling back. How, isn't this just some beast? This multi-headed beast in your computer? That, how do you tame it? How do you have any control over that at all? In any kind of way that leaves you confidence, that leaves you confident in what results come out? And plus, there's a term you haven't used, but I'm thinking you're dancing around it, and it's unintended consequences, right? There is like, if you do this, like you said Chuck, if you cut down the forest, well, we've modeled these seven things.

• 27:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is there an eighth thing you hadn't thought about that could change where the locusts land or something? And then the scientists end up getting the bad rap. Scientists neglected to consider. Meanwhile, we predicted everything else right. So how do you tame the beast?

• 28:13Speaker 02

  So first of all, there's thousands of scientists doing this. It's not one person and they all approach the problem from different disciplines. They can think about different things. And then we break it down in models. We were writing mathematical equations and computer programs and we can isolate parts of that. Make sure we get that part right before we link it to the next part. And this is where observations like the ones that NASA collects is really important, both to initialize your model, to help parameterize your model and to evaluate the model. And so the models I was working on before use data like what we get from satellites to help develop them and evaluate them.

• 28:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I neglected to fully consider that. So whatever, however beastly the program is and all the factors that it's considering, you look, people look to NASA and say, wait a minute, NASA has a data point that says, this is not as variable as we thought. That puts a constraint on that and I have a limit on that, on this other variable. And so this helps localize what the beast can, the damage the beast can do, it sounds like.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. So all the observations that we collect help constrain the, the models and, um, and help us develop them going forward. And so we can break apart those pieces and get confidence in each of them.

• 29:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, very cool, very cool.

• 29:26Chuck Nice?

  Wow, so, okay.

• 29:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Chuck, one more question. Maybe we can slip it in before we take our second and final break.

• 29:32Chuck Nice?

  Mikhail Boisvert, no, Boisvert, Boisvert, Mikhail Boisvert. You know what? I'm gonna call him Michael Bo.

• 29:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 29:43Chuck Nice?

  Hi, Michael Bo.

• 29:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 29:48Chuck Nice?

  He says, hello, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Calvin, Lord Nice. We figure out how to solve the human problem. Could we slow down the melting of land ice by, while we figure this out? Can we slow down the melting of land ice by one, sprinkling something on it to raise its melting point? A quick search of terra buty ammonium hydroxide raises it to 86 degrees Fahrenheit. All right. Also, sounds like you gave the earth cancer.

• 30:28Chuck Nice?

  And then lowering its thermal conductivity by scooping it up in a machine that would expand it like an aerogel. Oh, this is, oh, Boavia, Boavia. That's how you say his name. Boavir, Boavir. It's Michael Boavir. He gave me the phonetic spelling at the end.

• 30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's it.

• 30:53Chuck Nice?

  Thanks.

• 30:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Kay, this is, again, sounds like it's from the category of geoengineering. And these are, these are ideas that maybe work on paper. But do you get to put in your models? These sort of crazy future geoengineering ideas to try to help that out?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  I never specifically studied geoengineering, but there are people that do, and they try to understand them. And a lot of the ones that people talk about are stratospheric aerosol injections. So reflecting the sunlight by putting aerosols high up in the atmosphere.

• 31:25Chuck Nice?

  And you can Cloud.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  You can

• 31:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  High clouds, yeah.

• 31:29Chuck Nice?

  High clouds.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  But what, you know, as a scientist, what we're trying to do is understand what that might mean. And so what you see in some of that, you can reduce temperatures from doing something like stratospheric aerosol injection. But there's a lot of uncertainties and a lot of risks and a lot of things we don't know. And one thing in particular to think about is that that doesn't do anything. You're, you know, if you're doing something like that, you're not reducing carbon dioxide. So something like ocean acidification isn't going to be impacted by that.

• 31:57Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 31:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, we got one segment left. We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we might go into lightning round. What do you think of that? See, we get more of these questions out of, because we just luxuriate on these answers with all these questions. We have so many interested parties there. So Chuck, why don't you do a quick filter for this break? And when we come back, more with Dr. Katherine Calvin from NASA on StarTalk.

• 32:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk, third and final segment. And it's the Cosmic Queries, and we're talking about climate change and NASA. Climate change and NASA. And we've got the chief scientist of NASA, Dr. Katherine Calvin. And Kevin, is there a best website for people to track NASA's climate activities?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  NASA has a climate website. It includes a set of indicators for NASA climate, including things like what temperature rises today compared to before, current CO2 levels. They have a lot of indicators.

• 33:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is very geeky. That's a geeky.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the kind of stuff geeks love.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, what is that handle?

• 33:19Speaker 02

  I think it's climate.nasa.gov.

• 33:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. If not, just Google climate and NASA, and you'll probably find it.

• 33:27Chuck Nice?

  I've got a feeling it's gonna come up.

• 33:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's gonna come up. All right, Chuck, give me some more questions.

• 33:32Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 33:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And let's see if we can do like a lightning round. We'll put Kate on the spot, pretend like she can only answer in soundbites, and see how many questions we can get through here, okay?

• 33:41Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 33:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right.

• 33:43Chuck Nice?

  This is Teresa Anoski. Teresa says, "Hello, Dr. Tyson. Hello, Dr. Calvin. Lord, nice. A huge, what a huge volcanic eruption, throwing an ungodly amount of particulate into the upper atmosphere, caused a temporary cooling on the Earth as it has in the past. For instance, Krakatawa."

• 34:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Krakatoa.

• 34:08Chuck Nice?

  Krakatoa. Thank you. Thank you.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so volcanoes do inject sulfur into the atmosphere, and in previous really large volcanoes, we see it in the temperature record. But it depends on the amount of material coming out of the volcano and how high it goes, what the effects are on climate.

• 34:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, because you know, we forget, we just think of the atmosphere as one monolithic thing. But if you're, if you're, if in your head, it's layers, right? In your, in your studies. And so particles at different layers have different effects is what you're saying, right?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think a good example of this would be something like ozone. So in the stratosphere, ozone protects against incoming UV. And on the surface, ozone causes local health effects.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, okay.

• 34:50Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 34:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nobody's thinking about it.

• 34:52Chuck Nice?

  So I got a feeling that the stuff coming out of a volcano might also have some local health effect.

• 34:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you mean, risk of vaporization.

• 35:03Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I'm just saying, just saying, maybe that might be a bit of a problem.

• 35:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just saying.

• 35:09Chuck Nice?

  All right, very cool.

• 35:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, Chuck, you don't remember the Krakatoa movie? Krakatoa, East of Java? It was one of the disaster movies from like the 1970s.

• 35:17Chuck Nice?

  I have, did not, I do not know that movie.

• 35:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, Krakatoa, East of Java. And the, and the problem was Krakatoa is actually west of Java. So I don't know why they named the movie that way. I checked it on a map when I was a kid. They got.

• 35:28Chuck Nice?

  That's where they ran.

• 35:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which way they ran. All right, keep it coming.

• 35:35Chuck Nice?

  All right, this is, uh, Achilles Kasyap, who says, hello, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Calvin, can you tell us more about how NISAR, N-I-S-A-R, is different from other Earth observing satellites? Also, will it be able to contribute to climate science?

• 35:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'd never heard of NISAR. What's that?

• 36:00Chuck Nice?

  I never.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  It's launching next year. So it's a partnership with the Indian Space Research Organization. And it's going to look at the surface of the Earth in really fine detail. So it'll be able to look at things like ice sheet collapse or landslides and ice sheet dynamics and ice sheet collapse would be really important for climate.

• 36:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. All right, Chuck, keep it coming.

• 36:19Chuck Nice?

  All right, Abhinav Yadav, who says.

• 36:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know he doesn't pronounce it that way, but go on.

• 36:25Chuck Nice?

  I'm sure he doesn't either, to be honest. Like, I'm looking at it, and it's just Y-A-D-A-V, but it's probably pronounced like, Jant. I don't know.

• 36:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like Yadav, Yadav.

• 36:39Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, Yadav. Abhinav Yadav, who says, wow, you know what? You did make it sound better.

• 36:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, I'm telling you.

• 36:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. Hello, Dr. Tyson. Hello, Dr. Calvin. First of all, congrats to you, Dr. Calvin.

• 36:54Chuck Nice?

  And secondly, what options do we have now to deal with climate change? Given the most recent report states smaller efforts will have no impact.

• 37:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh.

• 37:07Chuck Nice?

  Uh oh.

• 37:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh. So Kate, this is right up your alley where humans are interacting with the climate, climate's interacting with humans. Is there some threshold below which we're not doing a damn thing?

• 37:18Speaker 02

  I'm not exactly sure what we're asking, but what I can say is that what we can look at is how different levels of emissions or emissions reductions or emissions increases affect temperature and sketch that out. I think one thing that's really important to know is that there's other processes like El Nino, La Nino, and so you might not see, you know, temperature isn't smooth going forward, it hasn't been smooth in the past. And so there are levels where you might not notice temperature change in the same way because of natural variability.

• 37:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, but in terms of actions that I can take, paper or plastic, you know, you know, electric or, you know, there are little decisions I might make in a day.

• 38:03Chuck Nice?

  Tesla or Hummer?

• 38:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 38:10Chuck Nice?

  Airplane or hang glider?

• 38:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think people just want to know, is what they're doing having any effect at all?

• 38:18Speaker 02

  It's a great question. I think what science can tell you is what the different options might mean. And there are people that track emissions over time. So, you know, we can look at how things have changed in the past. And there are people that study what the effect of individual technologies or actions might be on emissions in the future.

• 38:37Chuck Nice?

  Okay. Well, let me just, if I may, Doctor, because I know the report he's talking about, and it speaks to the inefficacy of individual action creating enough of a significant change. But I will say that what individual action does do is it causes people to become engaged in the issue itself. So it doesn't.

• 39:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Forces end up operating as a collective forces.

• 39:07Chuck Nice?

  Right, right. A collective force. So it doesn't make a difference if whether or not you recycle actually makes a difference. The fact that you're recycling actually brings the issue to your fore, to the fore. And that may cause you to take other actions as well.

• 39:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's total a behavioral shift. Right.

• 39:24Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 39:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, keep it going, Chuck.

• 39:26Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. This is Dylan and I like Dylan. He's got one name like Cher. Dylan says, hello, Dr. Dr. Tyson, hello, Dr. Calvin. The great and the great comedic co-host. What? Oh.

• 39:41Chuck Nice?

  Finally, somebody actually is complimentary. Okay. As someone who has to grow up with this troubling issue, I was wondering what the future would be like if by some magic, all fossil fuels were stopped burning now. And we went to 100% renewable energy today. Thank you all for what you do. Interesting.

• 40:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that's gotta be some of your model. You could probably model that.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So all it stops today and then what happens next?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there was actually a study on this that was in the last couple of years of looking at what if you halted fossil fuel emissions today? And what you get is that essentially climate will stay at the level it's at today. And so what we know, though, is that we're already experiencing climate impacts. So we would keep those levels of impacts. And what the science really says is that future warming depends on future emissions. So more emissions in the future, more warming, stopping emissions, you keep your current warming.

• 40:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if we stop today, we don't reverse what has happened, we just don't get worse.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Right, to reverse climate change, you would need to take carbon out of the atmosphere.

• 40:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Rather than stop putting it in the atmosphere.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, that's an important distinction and very tightly answered there. That's almost that damn near a soundbite for you. Okay, all right.

• 40:57Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 40:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Keep it coming. All right.

• 41:00Chuck Nice?

  Hello, Neil, hello, Chuck, hello, Catherine. Violetta here, your 13 and a half year old astrophysics kid writing for Washington DC with this question.

• 41:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is the Violetta.

• 41:12Chuck Nice?

  This is the Violetta.

• 41:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Give her full name, just so we get the full, the full thrust here.

• 41:17Chuck Nice?

  Okay, Violetta and Mom Izzy.

• 41:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 41:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Something about those two names. Violetta and Izzy.

• 41:28Chuck Nice?

  Izzy.

• 41:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry, Mom, but your daughter's got a way cooler name than you do. Okay.

• 41:34Chuck Nice?

  Oh, man, I never thought of it that way. Violet. And, okay, uh, here we go. She says to, uh, to Dr. Calvin, what is your absolute number one goal in your role as NASA chief scientist? And how do you plan to achieve it? Thank you for being a role model to young women everywhere. Wow.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I just think NASA science is, NASA does amazing science. I've been involved with some of the climate work before, using it in the work I was doing. They also have all of this really cool astrophysics and heliophysics and planetary science. And I just want to make sure everyone knows what NASA's doing throughout the entire portfolio.

• 42:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, so because that would, uh, you can't govern in clouds of ignorance. So NASA feeds information and data to those who have the power to do something about it with laws or legislation and the like. Is that a fair characterization?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  NASA provides information that can help decision makers at all levels, um, make informed decisions.

• 42:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So do they call you in front of Congress or do they call the administrator in front of Congress?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  I don't know the answer to that.

• 42:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I think they should call you in front of Congress.

• 42:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Vote for that right now.

• 42:57Chuck Nice?

  All right, here's the follow up question from Violet. Uh, she's asking because of her age, how does one get appointed to be NASA chief scientist anyway? It sounds like the coolest job ever. I'm just saying, you might find yourself passing the torch to me one day. She's, oh, she's out for your job.

• 43:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, she's getting OG on us. Oh, my God. Oh, man, a couple of years ago, it was, oh, I'm Violet and I have a simple little question. Now she's going to take over the world.

• 43:28Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Now she's just like, I'm taking down the chief scientist of NASA.

• 43:34Chuck Nice?

  There's nothing you can do about it.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Well, I will.

• 43:38Chuck Nice?

  Well, yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I will say I agree with her. It's the coolest job ever. I get to learn science every day. I get to talk to people about science. And there's nothing more fun than sort of seeing what energizes a scientist and then trying to capture that energy and explain it to someone else. In terms of how you get here, just keep asking questions and keep learning.

• 43:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, and so it's not like you lobbied for that post. You were just very visible in your work. And NASA goes around and says, there's somebody we could use like right now in this seat. I mean, is that basically how that happens?

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think that they, you know, there was a multi-stage interview process, but they were looking for someone that knew climate science and that could help elevate NASA's climate science as well as represent the rest of NASA's science.

• 44:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And do you have to be approved by Congress?

• 44:22Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By the Senate?

• 44:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you're an appointee by the head of the agency?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  I'm serving in an Intergovernmental Personnel Act Mobility Program.

• 44:32Chuck Nice?

  Ooh, okay. I don't know what the hell that is.

• 44:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I think it's like they built a set of highways and freeways so they can move expertise simply and easily without what would normally be the red tape, however red-tapey that title sounds.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a way of doing temporary assignment between the federal government and other eligible entities.

• 44:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, cool. And it allows the federal government to tap expertise that it might not otherwise have access to within its own circles.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 45:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right.

• 45:06Chuck Nice?

  Wow, for a very bureaucratic sounding name, it's relatively efficient.

• 45:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, it's a badass way to get talent where you need it when you have to have it.

• 45:17Chuck Nice?

  Super cool, man.

• 45:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dr. Calvin, it's been a delight to have you on StarTalk, and I hope this is not the last time we get you on. I know the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change comes out with these intermittent reports, and maybe we can reach back into your office and get you back on StarTalk. Our fan base was delighted by this, so thank you.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for having me, and I'd be happy to talk to you guys again.

• 45:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, all right. Chuck, always good to have you, man.

• 45:45Chuck Nice?

  Always a pleasure.

• 45:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, this is Neil deGrasse Tyson, concluding yet another episode of Cosmic Queries. Climate Change Edition. As always, I bid you, keep looking up.