Level Up: Your Brain on Video Games with Heather Berlin

Do video games really turn your mind to mush? Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Chuck Nice explore the effects of video games and eSports on the brain with neuroscientist Dr. Heather Berlin at PocketLab’s Science Is Cool Virtual Unconference.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. Welcome to StarTalk. I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And we're coming to you in this moment live at Pocket Labs' Science is Cool Jamboree. And we're going to be talking about esports. In particular, what's going on inside the brain of those engaged in it. And for that, I need expertise far beyond anything I carry. And we've got a good friend of StarTalk's called Heather Berlin.

• 0:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's a professor of psychiatry at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. And she's a neuroscientist. So in addition to that, we've got Chuck Nice. Can't do this without Chuck Nice, our in-house funny man.

• 1:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Heather, welcome back.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 1:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you're all in.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  I'm all in. Thanks for having me. Always fun to be here.

• 1:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so just a couple of things. The people who have sort of a bias, I mean, maybe just old farts, I don't know. They have a biased understanding of esports. They think it's like all esports are just sort of shoot them up. But there's a huge range that goes from like online chess, all right? That's gaming. And to Minecraft, nobody doesn't love Minecraft. And so what we're going to try to do, get into the science behind what's going on in the brains of people involved in this entire spectrum of sports, esports. So let me ask you, Heather, have you into any esports at all?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  PC answer, but the truth is not at all.

• 1:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I mean, not as a pastime, not as a pastime. I'm interested in it intellectually, yes. My kids play some video games.

• 2:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You study brain patterns, right? So what is a brain pattern? What does that even mean?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Uh, we look at activation levels. So every thought you have, every feeling is connected to neurons firing in your brain. So we're trying to map that. And we can use different neuroimaging techniques to look at what's happening in your brain when you're doing different tasks, one of which is playing video games. So there's been studies which look at what happens in people's brains when they're, when they're playing different types of video games. And like you said, there's a whole different, a variety of different types of games that have different types of effects on the brain.

• 2:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, so when you say an effect, so what if it lights up? All right. If I do anything, a part of my brain lights up. So does it also, because it's sending electrochemical signals, but does it change the chemistry of the brain?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Ultimately, yes. If you keep activating certain neural pathways, over time, you have something called neuroplasticity, where they start to change their morphology and they can fire more quickly together. So yes, you are changing the pathways in the brain. And we do see some of these changes and activation patterns when people have been gaming for, for quite some time.

• 3:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, what's all this I've heard about the, the, the chemical dopamine? Like, it's a little weird because it has the word like dope in it. So, good or bad? I don't know.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  It could make you dopey. Uh, no, it's, so that's sort of, um, part of the neurotransmitter system that's involved in our sense of pleasure and reward. And so in addition to having-

• 3:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No matter where that comes from, then?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  No matter where it comes from. Um, so it could come from drugs, it could come from, you know, physical, other kinds of physical pleasures, um, and gaming, uh, food as well. So any kind of pleasure that we experience, you're going to see some activation of, you're going to see a release of neurotransmitter in the brain, of the neurotransmitter dopamine in particular.

• 3:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, did you play any esports? Do you have a favorite game?

• 4:03Chuck Nice?

  Um, it's called Real Life. That's the esports that I play. I play this game called Real Life. And what you have to do is you have to figure out how you're going to pay your mortgage every month.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Well, when you pay it, you get some dopamine, right? When you pay it, it feels real good.

• 4:20Chuck Nice?

  A little dopamine shot when you pay it. Right. And, uh, if you, if you don't pay it, they come and take your, uh, they come and take your

• 4:30Chuck Nice?

  So here's something Heather. Uh, no, go on, go on. No, I was gonna say when Heather was talking about dopamine, from what I have read, um, dopamine is what, uh, your brain is flooded with when people do cocaine chiefly. So is video games, are video games the new cocaine?

• 4:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  They can be depending on how you use it. I kind of think of it like, uh, a bit like wine, you know, when you, when you consume it in a reasonable doses, like doses that can be good for you at the right age, but too much and it can become a bad thing. And it is, yeah. It could be like sort of, you know, cocaine for the brain if it's not done in the right way.

• 5:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So is there a difference when I think of gaming? All right, I think more broadly, of course, this whole session today is about esports. But if, and it's sports and you're competing and you win or you don't win and, or the other word for that is lose. Um, is there, uh, if, if you solve a puzzle all by yourself and then you triumph, uh, or if you play a board game? Or if you play a video game and it, is there, are, is there a common chemistry to the winning feeling of, of any of those?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yes. So winning, whether it's a solo activity, whether you're, you're solving a puzzle on your own or a math equation for that matter, um, will give you a little bit of hit of that dopamine, a little bit of pleasure. Uh, when you're playing with other people and there's a competition element involved, you not only get the dopamine, but you have other parts of the brain that are being active. Um, uh, things like looking at socialization. Um, so it might be more motivating. So there's something called a social facilitation effect where if you're doing any kind of task and others are, the mere presence of others can enhance your performance. However, if the task gets really complex, you might have a social inhibition effect.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Um, where others being present can actually compromise your performance. So again, it's a fine balance.

• 6:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everything that happens, you're calling an effect. So if it's good, that's an effect. If it's bad, that's an effect. So, so if everything that can happen, you have a name for it. What does that mean?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  It just means that's what science does. We try to name things phenomena that we observe.

• 7:02Chuck Nice?

  It means you're affected. That's what it means. It means no matter what you do in video games, you are affected. If I play enough Halo and Call of Duty, can I actually get post-traumatic stress disorder? Oh, interesting. If I'm constantly in these like almost, especially if I play like a VR game, if I'm constantly immersed in these high stress, which by the way, my impression of everybody playing a first-person shooter online streaming with teammates, this is them sitting with the game and then go, "Oh, garbage, garbage." Okay, so they get, they're into it. They're totally in it. They're totally into it, but could that have the effect on you of like seeing real battle?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  So this is the thing. There's part of your brain that is able to distinguish reality from being in a virtual situation. And most of the time you can, you know, make that distinction. There are certain people with different disorders where they have more trouble distinguishing their imagination from reality. Those are people like with schizophrenia, for example. But, you know, actually it's a converse. We are now using as part of therapy, something called exposure therapy for people with PTSD, virtual reality settings. So for example, if it's people coming back from Iraq Iraq war, they have a virtual reality of the desert scene and what it would actually feel like being back in Iraq.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  We give them a fake gun and and actually re-expose them to those experiences, but do it in a way where they can re-associate it with more neutral feelings. So it's not so intense. It's sort of a more modified version of it, but they need to instead of avoid it to kind of re-experience it and remap those pathways in a more neutral environment to actually help heal some of the symptoms of PTSD. So we're reaching you, it depends on how it's being used.

• 8:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. A couple of other things before we get even deeper into that part of it. Uh, most modern video games and esports involve hand-eye coordination and reflexes. So is this, uh, is re- are reflexes something you're born with? Or can you improve them by this kind of activity?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  You can certainly improve it. So you know, there's a lot of controversy in the literature about, you know, are these games good for you, bad for you, what are they doing to your brain? And we certainly observe a number of positive effects, one of which is it helps improve hand-eye coordination, which makes sense. You're constantly doing this task. If you were playing tennis every day for five hours a day, that would help that, you know, whatever, larger limb coordination. But this really does help.

• 9:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know what else is done, haven't?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  What?

• 9:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have you, you know what else is done? I'm an old fart when I grew up. And there was a saying, if you were clumsy, you were all thumbs. And today, the thumb is such an important part of operating a controller. If you, if you tell an esports person they're all thumbs, they'll probably take that as a compliment.

• 10:02Chuck Nice?

  They're like, dude, thank you.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And also.

• 10:05Chuck Nice?

  As a matter of fact, that's my screen name, all thumbs.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Um, the other thing it helps though with is attention. So people used to think it's going to make you more distractible. It actually helps them, um, refine their attention. It helps with, um, decreased distractibility. Uh, it helps them be able to switch gears more quickly. So there are certain things that, that they're certainly having a positive effect on both behavior and the brain. Cause as I said, the brain is plastic. So as it gets these inputs, it's changing all the time.

• 10:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My brain is not made of plastic.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Well, I mean.

• 10:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Your brain might be.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  As in flexible, it is flexible. We call it plastic.

• 10:44Chuck Nice?

  Mine was plastic, but I melted it. So.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, um, is there any difference between, and this could go, plays right back into the classroom, uh, if, if there are games that are cooperation based, where there isn't a winner or a loser necessarily, versus games where cooperation is not rewarded, where you're sort of the single competitor. Do we learn anything from that back in the classroom? And what, what might be, uh, improve the learning environment?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  There are definitely benefits to having a cooperative environment. I mean, there's, it's usually a combination of competitive and cooperativeness, but it prepares kids for real life situations, how to negotiate conflict, if there is any. Um, it, it helps develop important life skills like empathy, right? Um, and, and, you know, so, so there are certainly benefits from that. There are also drawbacks if, um, people have sort of social anxiety, if they have maybe issues with self-esteem, the increased pressure, um, can have a negative effect. So it really depends on the individual, but overall, the benefit of, of working with others and teamwork, you know, it, it activates so many different

• 12:02Speaker 01

  parts of the brain and so many, um, skillsets that we need to, to be, uh, to function adaptively in life.

• 12:09Chuck Nice?

  And how about face-to-face socialization? Like, a lot of gaming is done online where sometimes, I mean, you, you have no idea who you're playing with, you've never seen them. I've actually been to meetups where people are meeting for the very first time. One is from Texas, one is from California, one is from Michigan, and they're all here in New York City for something, and they all meet up. But when they meet up, they're like friends, but they really don't have any true personal socialization. Is that good? Is it bad? What, what is...

• 12:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The gaming, like Chuck, the gaming was their socialization. That's, that's an aspect of so, I mean, I mean, why is that any different from meeting in person, other than it's electronic through, through a game? It's just a different mode.

• 12:57Chuck Nice?

  But I can touch you.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  There are a couple of things missing.

• 13:01Chuck Nice?

  But I used to be able to hug you and have actual contact. So that's what I'm talking about.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what's missing. Yeah, a couple of things are missing. One is olfaction, smell. That has, it's a huge impact on how we interact with each other that's happening unconsciously that we're missing out on.

• 13:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, that might be a good thing. You don't know the people I know, that might be a good thing. You don't wanna smell them.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  But we can even, there are studies which we've done which show that you can pick up on people when they're stressed, just based on their odor. And that enhances the empathy network in the brain. So we're missing some of that. Touch.

• 13:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, this is the future. That's just a new app. That, that, where it sends out an odor, you know.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  You just spray it and it sniffs, we sniff empathy.

• 13:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, this is new.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Stress, empathy.

• 13:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Computers didn't use to have video cameras built into them. Now they do. Okay? So now you have a smell, smell-a-vision as part of it. That's, that's the new invention. Somebody out there, invent that.

• 14:02Chuck Nice?

  That, that will never work with gamers. They're only going to send one smell to everybody. And he who smelt it dealt it.

• 14:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He denied it, supplied it.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I'm sure all of the teachers out there are very much appreciating this. High level conversation.

• 14:23Chuck Nice?

  Listen, we're just being honest.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. I, I agree. But you know, there are things, we evolved, evolutionarily speaking, to have these certain signals when we are physically present that we are missing out on. Also, let's not forget anonymity. I mean, I've, I've heard about what some of the conversations on Call of Duty in these group chats, and they can be pretty vulgar and people will say things that they probably wouldn't say to each other in real life. So there is something about a cloak of, you know, oh, I can just.

• 14:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Social media, yes, okay.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can just shut off and disappear and not have to deal with the aftermath of whatever I'm doing or saying. So, you know, as I said, as, just as there are positive social impacts of this, there also can be very negative ones that we don't wanna forget about. Yeah.

• 15:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what about people who are, might be on the spectrum where a one-on-one interaction is not ideal, but a machine interaction is perfect?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  For those people, it's really been, it's been helpful. And I've even seen with patients who have social anxiety and then we move to the Zoom world where they're interacting via the screen and they're much more comfortable that way. And it actually allows them to be social, whereas otherwise their anxiety would block them from doing so.

• 15:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. So I'm not gonna be like old timer on the porch saying, "My day, we've been erection was living, we've..." No, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. I, I, did I remember, what is this? When the telephone was invented, people were...

• 15:47Speaker 01

  You remember that, you were around.

• 15:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  ...social skills. Because you had, you had to show up on, on their doorstep to say hi. Now you could just call them up. In fact, the word to call, the phrase to call someone, meant to show up at their front door. And when Alexander Bell came out with this new fangled device, the word "call" took on a whole new meaning. So I, I'm not gonna be the old timer, say, "We had to do it my way, the way I grew up." No, let this be a whole other way to do it.

• 16:16Chuck Nice?

  You do realize when you said, "I remember the telephone when it was invented..."

• 16:21Speaker 01

  You did say that line. Can we just cut that line?

• 16:24Chuck Nice?

  It sounded like Alexander Graham Bell said, "Neil, come here," instead of "what."

• 16:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry. "I remember reading about the phone when it was invented." Let me just make that clear.

• 16:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've got to take a quick break, but when we return to Pocket Labs' live streaming of StarTalk, our discussion with Professor Heather Berlin on what's going on inside the minds of an e-gamer.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Roy Hill Percival, and I support StarTalk on Patreon, bringing the universe down to earth. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 17:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk, the science of gaming, the neuroscience of gaming. I've got Professor Heather Berlin, right here in the house, a neuroscientist to help us through.

• 17:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Heather, I've seen people who cannot be prided away from their computers and their gaming sessions. Can you get addicted to this?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So we do see that and it's even been, you know, we call it video gaming addiction or disorder. And it's not about the length of time a person is on the game. It's really about can they stop playing and how they react when being stopped, right? So if you ever have a kid, they're on a screen, you take them off and they start screaming and throwing a temper tantrum, that's not, that's not a great sign, right? But so it's really about how much control you have over it. And then also how it's impacting your life. If you're doing it at the exclusion of other things in your life, if you're neglecting, you know, your work, your social life, your relationships, it's a problem. But it's really the ability to be able to stop or not.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  And that's the same thing with drugs and addiction. I mean, maybe some people have tried cocaine here and there. We don't say they're an addict. But when they can't stop and they want to and it's interfering with their life. And then we even see withdrawal symptoms with gaming as well. I've had to work with patients who are literally going through withdrawal. They have headaches, they have anxiety. So it can really be a problem, but it's not for everyone. It doesn't mean everyone's an addict.

• 19:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When my son was in like 8th grade, I swear I went three days without seeing him. And then one day he came out of his room and I said, "Oh, what's up?" "Oh, the internet's down."

• 19:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, how about this one that is always, it's come up in Congress, it comes up at family groups, it comes up anytime, because you know, America, the United States especially, there's violence in society and there's a lot of sort of accusations bandied about, about whether video games promote, violent video games promote violence in society. You said just a moment ago that we do have the capacity, very good capacity, to separate what is real from what is play. But is there any further research on this?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so there's been a lot done in this area and you, everybody can always find one or study that supports their particular idea. But when you look at these meta-analyses, which are basically taking the congregate of all the studies. Um, the vast

• 20:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Basically, studies of studies when you

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Studies of studies, yes, yes.

• 20:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what happens if you study those studies?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I don't know what it's called, a mega meta-analysis. Um, but they do find overall, um, video games can increase aggression. But usually the effects are really small and it doesn't have that big impact that we're talking about in terms of like people going out and shooting up. You know, a movie theater, um, so in general, overall, it doesn't really impact, um, how people interact with the world, even though you might see these little upshoots of aggression just after they finish, um, playing. Uh, that being said, for people who are vulnerable or have an underlying psychiatric illness, some of it could trigger them.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  It could, it could be part of what triggers them, but I think if you're gonna be placing, you know, tax dollars someplace, you know, to fight some sort of issue, I don't think video games is really the problem. I'd go more for like guns or, you know, psychiatric illness, actual guns or treating mental illness. I don't think the video games are really the underlying cause of, of what's happening in society.

• 21:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of course, you have the example of Japan, for example, where, uh, uh, you know, gun violence is, is as low as it gets in the, in the developed world and it's very, as I understand it, there's very high consumption of violent video games there.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And also, I mean, they've done studies across the world as consumption of violent video games has gone up. There hasn't been, um, an equal, uh, increase in, in aggression and, you know, crimes and all the rest. Does not correlate with that at all. So, you know, when you look at it anecdotally, it feels like it must. Um, and we, like I said, we see these tiny upshots, but it's not really having the impact that, that people think it's having.

• 21:56Chuck Nice?

  And you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say how my old fogey moment is that when I was coming up, it was rap music and rock and roll.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:07Chuck Nice?

  So they said that.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Explicit lyrics.

• 22:08Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. It's what they said rap music is causing people to, it's like guns don't kill people, rappers do. Like, that was the vibe back then, so.

• 22:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 22:19Chuck Nice?

  It just seems like with each generation, they're looking for a reason.

• 22:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Grownups always need something to blame it on.

• 22:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  But this is the thing, it's like, yeah, that's why I love science, because it goes against your intuitions and you have to follow the data sometimes. And it's that like, oh, it feels like this must be a cause, but when you really look at the numbers.

• 22:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You have to follow the data all the time.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 22:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All the time.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  All the time. I don't know when it comes to like who you're gonna marry and those kinds of decisions, but in general, follow the data, yes.

• 22:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Plus, let the record show, Chuck, that in fact Heather is married to a rapper.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  I am.

• 22:53Chuck Nice?

  She is.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  So I did not follow the data at all.

• 22:56Chuck Nice?

  Right, right. Also, also let the record show that Heather knows how to use electronic shocks to control a person's mind.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Right. So I caught out on the case.

• 23:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're all hidden behind the curtain there.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 23:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Heather, just to bring some of this to a close, before we go to Q and A with Dave, is there a way to use esports to encourage diversity, equity and inclusion in society, if not sort of school activities? Do you see a way that this can be a force of good?

• 23:34Chuck Nice?

  That's a great, great question. And before you do it, can you speak to the fact that when it comes to video game competitions, there's been a lot of talk, and some of it I've witnessed myself, where the community kind of really comes down on girls who play, women who play. So like, how do we overcome that in addition to what Neil said?

• 24:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm gonna take it to two part. One is that I think just the gamification in general in education can have a real advantage. Right? If we can gamify things and we're doing it and there are studies have been done which show the results, it really enhances learning and skill acquisition. So coding, I've seen a game that was created that was to learn calculus. But when you gamify it and you have to like learn to figure out this thing to get to the next level, not only do people spend more time on it trying to figure it out, they're enjoying it and they're retaining the information better.

• 24:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's feeding a reward system then. That's what's going on in there.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and just the whole way that games have been designed to incentivize. You know, we have to kind of pick and choose what's really been good about. Some of the, you know, game makers wanna get you addicted in some cases, but we can pick and choose the things that are working and then kind of bring them into the educational environment and they can have really amazing results where people retain information better. They're more motivated to study. So if you say, "Go home and study these math problems," you know, "Oh no, I don't wanna do that, maybe I'll spend a half hour." But if you say, "Just go home and play this game," and then they're gonna keep going back and trying again, because you know with games, when you fail, you wanna go back and try to get back to the next level and you keep it until you get it and then you move on.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  And so I think in that way, gamifying education, we can definitely use it as a tool. Still, we need teachers and we need socialization, but we can definitely make that part of the toolkit. And then in terms of...

• 25:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In my day, a gold star was enough. That's all I really needed.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Now you have to get to like the next level of the kingdom.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  But the other thing is that in terms of diversity, um, the nice thing, um, I mean, as I said, the downside is it can be the anonymity, but you know, you can have these avatars, you can be anything online, you know, um, you can be a, a, a young girl who might have, you know, be sort of have a low voice or whatever, and your avatar could be some big, huge, Herculean kind of creature, um, and you can take on these different personas. And in a way, it can take away these ideas of ge- gender and skin color and ethnicity, all the rest, because you can be anything online, really. Um, and so then it might be purely just based on your skill set, you know, if you're in a game where you're competing against other people. So in a way, I think it might help.

• 26:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nobody's discriminating against the Hulk for his skin color.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 26:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's true.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  I can't top that.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  But, you know, we all, I think, also empathizing with other people, getting into other characters. There's been studies where we show, like, for example, if, if my character, um, and to help with diversity, they've had, like, if my character would be a, a black character, let's say, interacting with the world, and they had, they had, um, they've set up these, these sort of, um, virtual realities where people would respond to me in certain ways, um, and I could feel what that feels like, um, being in that avatar. So in those ways, we can really use this to kind of get people to have some empathy for what it might feel like to literally be in somebody else's skin.

• 27:26Chuck Nice?

  So how did it feel to have, how, how did it feel to have all the other avatars call the cops on you?

• 27:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Me and Bron on a Saturday afternoon, that's right.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  No, but they did, in, in these certain games, they actually created it so there would be a little bit of bias towards certain characters, so you could feel what that would feel like. Um, and these games were specifically created to help people have, um, an understanding of what it would feel like to be in a different ethnicity or skin color or gender. Um, and so we are, the idea is that if we can use this technology to help with whatever the social, psychological issues that we're dealing with, um, it gives us an opportunity to do that. And so for that, I think it could be really beneficial.

• 28:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, so before we go to Dave Baker, let me get a quick poll from the three of us, but maybe send it out to the to the audience as well. Um, should esports be an Olympic sport? Chuck?

• 28:28Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna say yes, and I will do so reluctantly, but I will say yes, because I have a very, um, newfound respect for esport athletes, because I interviewed a few of them, uh, who play on different teams for different games. And I found out that they don't just play video games all day long. They get up early. They have these regimens where they start out with nutrition. Then they have to exercise, because all of these things actually help your brain. And for them, it's really about reaction times, and it's really about being precise.

• 29:11Chuck Nice?

  And that means you have to be focused, and you have to maintain that focus at a very high level for a long period of time. And that's kind of like what sports is. It's really mental. So I'm gonna say yes, it should.

• 29:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Heather, how about you?

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm on the fence. I think the same question can be asked of a number of sports that are, you know, should they be an Olympic sport? You know, fill in the blank.

• 29:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't ask about other sports.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  So, uh, you know, if there is an obscure sport that nobody has heard of, and you want to put on the map, or there's countries competing against each other, and you want to, um, reward the... I guess I am on the fence. In my mind, I'm thinking that a sport is this physical... And maybe this is controversial, you know? Maybe this is controversial, but, you know, this very physical activity, um, that you have to perfect. And if mental activities can be an Olympic sport, then we need to really open it up to to everything. I mean, is chess in the Olympics? I don't know. I don't think so, right?

• 30:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I see. If you open the gates, that's a whole other place to be.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Right, and so you're, so, so yes, if we then open it up to other mental um activities, so, um, which could even get us academics involved in the Olympics at some point. So.

• 30:29Chuck Nice?

  Oh, we're looking at mathletes now, look at you nerd.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, I'm saying, I was a mathlete, I was a mathlete, I'm not gonna lie. Um, we also had an academic decathlon where we had to compete in all these different academics. So like, could that be an Olympic sport? I'm just saying, so.

• 30:44Chuck Nice?

  You know what, Neil, Neil? I just changed my answer, no.

• 30:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You want to lose?

• 30:51Chuck Nice?

  That's what I'm gonna say, and like, after.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  You don't wanna let us in?

• 30:54Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, after hearing about mathletes and mental decatlons, I'm like, to heck with this.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I just feel like esports is on the border between the physical and the mental kinda thing. And once you go over the edge, there's no turning back.

• 31:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so my, my, my answer is, uh, I, I've spoken to Chuck about this before. I think the, I think the litmus test ought to be ancient Greece. And you have to ask the sculptors who just finished sculpting the wrestlers, the, the, the, the ziskus thrower, and saying, will you now sculpt an esport gamer hunched over their console?

• 31:40Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 31:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If they say yes to that, and then you put them on the side of Grecian urns, I'm good for it. If no, I'm going with the Greeks.

• 31:49Chuck Nice?

  However, Neil, however, based upon your criteria, uh, all Olympic sports must be played naked.

• 31:58Chuck Nice?

  Cause that's what's on the side of a Grecian urn.

• 32:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's true.

• 32:01Chuck Nice?

  A bunch of naked dudes.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  However, academics could then enter, because you know the thinker, the thinker.

• 32:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, good.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  If we're going by sculptures.

• 32:16Chuck Nice?

  Yes, but if you, Heather.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  This position could be a whole, a whole game changer.

• 32:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but if you look, if you look at the body on the thinker, you know he's thinking about going back to whatever sport he just got finished.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  That's true, and he is still naked, so there's that.

• 32:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's fully muscle.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Folks, we gotta take a quick break, but when we come back, more on the neuroscience of gaming.

• 33:04Chuck Nice?

  Time to acknowledge Jeff Simon, Chaz Gencarelli, and Anthony Manetti. Those are our Patreon shoutouts to three people who are helping us make this show a reality. Thanks so much for your support, guys, and anyone else listening who would like their very own Patreon shoutout. Please go to patreon.com/startalkradio and support us.

• 33:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back from the break, and for this last segment, we're gonna take questions from the audience of this live stream. And the person who will bring it to us is the one and only Dave Baker, co-founder of Pocket Lab.

• 33:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Dave Baker, rescue us, please.

• 33:57Speaker 04

  You know, you brought me in just the right time. Um, hey, you know, there's so many-

• 34:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dave Baker is, you know, a co-founder of Pocket Labs, and he runs that stuff. And he's also a nice guy. This is a good combination.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  Thank you. Oh, you're all wonderful people. And Chuck, you smell fantastic today. I don't know what it is.

• 34:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you, Dave. I'm actually piping in Neil's apartment to you.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  We have some brilliant questions, so I want to dive into them. Abigail Perkins asked, could the absence-

• 34:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From where? Where are these people from?

• 34:36Speaker 04

  Oh, I don't know. Abigail, if you put it in chat, we'll find out.

• 34:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 34:40Speaker 04

  By the way-

• 34:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Abigail, please answer, you're from your mom's womb.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  We have 152 countries signed up to this today. And, you know, by the way, thank you, guys. You're a big part of making this event a success. So I want to say that. Abigail Perkins asked, could the absence of smell be beneficial to learning inhibitions?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  That's our, you know, I'm going to say no, because the more information you have, the more deeply encoded that information gets. So it's about making associations between things. The more associations you can make between with an idea and other things that are connected to it, the more you remember it. And so smell is one of those things that can unconsciously tag something that you're learning in a way. And taste is another one. It's, we call it one trial learning. So which evolutionary speaking makes sense. If you eat something and then you get sick from it and you throw up, you'll never go near that thing again. Right? So, and the same thing with certain, oh, you smell the milk. The milk is not good. I'm not going to touch it. Right?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  So smell is really important in tagging information. So I would say probably not going to enhance it. Um, it might make it more, um, less distracting, let's say, when you're learning something. But I do think that when you add in emotions and other sensory information, it enhances learning.

• 36:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Heather, when I was a kid, I grew up in New York City and I visited a midwestern town for the first time. And I said, something's not right. Something, I'm walking up and down the street.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Doesn't smell like dog pee.

• 36:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know what it is. This town has no smell. And I, I, I realized that in New York City, you walk by an alley, okay, it smells of urine. Okay. And then you walk by a bakery and you smell bread. As you walk by some, and, and people, and you're closer to people in the street. And so I, I took it for granted that I'm olfactorially alive in a big city such as New York City. And, and it played right into what you're saying there.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  I can tell you this, though.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Neil is walking, Neil's walking around a small town going, hey, do you guys have any bakeries that smell like urine?

• 36:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  These are two separate smells.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  Oh, two separate smells. Okay.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  But I can tell you this, there is also like everything else, everything in moderation. So when I was pregnant, so it increases, scientifically speaking, not just subjectively, it enhances your sense of smell. And I knew that as a scientist, but when I actually experienced it, walking through the streets of New York, it was overwhelming. It was too much. And I couldn't take it, especially in the summer when the heat just made all the smells and the odors that much stronger.

• 37:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dank, dank is the word.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Dank is the word. And I really was overwhelmed by this odor. So, so that is to say when the smells are too strong, they can be distracting. So if someone's wearing really strong perfume, you know, sometimes it makes it, it can make it more difficult to concentrate or really bad odor as well. So intensity of the odor matters as well as balance, whether it's positive or negative.

• 37:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Dave, what else you got?

• 37:58Speaker 04

  It's a great answer. Abigail was from Florida, from Boca.

• 38:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Florida, okay.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  This is from Jeanette Thomas. I don't know where, we'll find Jeanette, where are you from? So there's a lot of reward games, in fact, a lot of them are designed to kind of keep you, you know, keep you at an even page and going. Does that undermine the process of learning and resiliency or grit? I don't know if grit is involved, but resiliency, so.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  The fact that there are rewards with the things that you've.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's, a lot of times instant rewards, right?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I don't think it does, because there's also sort of punishers built in as well. Because when you lose, you have to like, you know, I have a four and a seven year old, and when they don't get past the level or something, they can get very upset about it, right? So I think it does help, it's not only rewarding, you also have to learn how to deal with disappointment or losing points, right? Or losing a life. So they're, they're always intertwined. But you know, with, the violence goes into that as well, just a little bit, because there's this, these studies called the Bobo Doll Experiment, which was done by this researcher, Vandora, it was about social learning theory. And in these experiments, you had little kids watch a video of somebody else either punching

• 39:11Speaker 01

  a Bobo, the clown doll, and getting rewarded for it or getting punished for it. And the kids would mimic the behavior of the model, depending on whether they were rewarded or not for their behavior, which is interesting. So it's not just about whether you're doing something violent or getting a reward or not, it's, it's, it's. Looking at the connection between the behavior and the reward that's gotten for that behavior, or the punishment, and kids do model that. So it's sort of an added element to all of this, if there's a social aspect involved.

• 39:42Chuck Nice?

  Let's be honest, who doesn't want to punch a clown? Come on, come on. You can't look at a clown without wanting to punch it.

• 39:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Punch him in the big red nose. That's why, he's been punched before, that's why he got a big red nose. But Dave, did Heather actually answer the question?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Oh, the question?

• 40:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wasn't the question, in real life, if you have to pick yourself back up and there's no intermittent rewards to keep you going, is it, do you get a false sense of encouragement in a game that you're not going to get in real life? Was that the question?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  There, you can, that, so yeah, if you break it down like that, then yeah, there is a problem with kids, for example, my kids, I'll say, can you clear up your room? Well, what am I going to get in return will be the answer. And I'm like, not everything, you don't get a reward for everything. And it really, yeah, what am I going to get? Like, you're getting nothing. You're getting not being yelled at. Just clean your room.

• 40:44Speaker 04

  What kind of mom are you?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  But people can get acclimated to this idea that everything you do, you need to get a reward at the end of it. And that can be problematic for people who don't get rewards.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  That can happen with, that can happen with gold stars too. I mean, before, when my daughters were young, they had gold stars on their refrigerator, right? And they really, those stars mattered to them.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  But it's also about the intensity of, so it's not just a reward, but how the duration, we look at duration, we look at intensity, we look at frequency. And so the kinds of rewards you're getting in the video game because you're so ingrained, and it's very, it really is perking up that dopamine system. And so when you're getting these constant hits of dopamine, it's like social media, you know, oh, I got to check my social media, did I get a like, did I get a like? And so it's, it's not a great pattern. Rewards, the way we did it in the old days, the old times, you know, with those stars, or you have to earn enough stars to get a present at the end, was trying to instill this idea of a long-term goal that you build up to over time. But here, it's immediate gratification. And that can be dangerous.

• 41:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  You know, and there's

• 41:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Only a few more questions.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How many can you squeeze in?

• 41:58Speaker 04

  Okay, well, there's a related one to this from Crystal Mailer. Um, do, do video games, do they promote apathy? That's, that's related, you're talking about.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Hmm. Ah, that's, that's an interesting one. I mean, only if you

• 42:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can harm someone and it, there's no real consequences to it. You can crack up the car, you can drive off the cliff and you have three more lives, you know, or whatever, three more turns. So, yeah, that's an interesting question.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you can habituate to certain forms of, um, let's say violence. Um, and then you need more and more, just like with drugs to get the same amount of stimulation. Um, so it can, it can sort of feed into that where, where, you know, they need more to get the same level of excitement that they might have. I used to play Super Mario Brothers and that was like fun enough, like jumping up and getting the gold little coin, you know? And now it's like, you have to blow someone's head off, right? So I, I don't know.

• 42:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not funny.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Not that that's it, it was just then. There was Mike Tyson's punch out where you've got to punch him in the face. But I think the video games are becoming more and more realistic and more, and you needing more to get that same level of stimulation and to keep people's attention.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Well, so Heather, that's a, that's a great topic. Is, this is a question from Melissa Goes and she asked, does long-term gaming cause you to need more intense games or longer gaming sessions to get the same level of reward?

• 43:24Chuck Nice?

  Like the game where Super Mario blows off Mike Tyson's head.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  How, I mean, there's, there's addiction to, to like specifically opiates, opioids. That's different, that works different, right? There's a physical, I believe, but is this, is this

• 43:41Speaker 01

  No, it's the same mechanism we call habituation. So when you habituate. Um, it's like when the brain is getting the same stimulation over and over and over again, it learns to say, oh, that's not something I really need to pay attention to.

• 43:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's all over novel and you create a new baseline.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yes, you need more novelty. The brain, dopamine comes from novelty. Um, and so once you have, you've seen something over and over and over again, it's almost like it, the, the intensity fades out and you need more to get the same novelty. I mean, the same has happened with pornography. People have talked about that as well. Like you start with, they watch a little porn and then they need more and more and more to get to the same level and they can get addicted to porn in that way. So it's all the same neural circuit just being applied to different behaviors. And as long as you're consciously aware of it and try to maybe, you know, take gaming breaks if you feel like you're habituating. Um, and so that the novelty can come back again over time.

• 44:35Chuck Nice?

  What you just described is the reason why I skydive without a parachute.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  You, you, it's pretty advanced. Uh, that's, uh, I don't know where you go beyond that, actually.

• 44:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can only do it once.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  Okay, so you're done. Basically you've reached the pinnacle at that point.

• 44:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This thing that you're describing as bad might have what got, been, what got us out of the caves in the first place. The urge to always do something greater, more novel, more, uh, interesting, if it were.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely. But I think, you know, we, there is going to be a point at which we've created all the tools and the things that we need to survive. And then that same mechanism that evolved to help us survive can also lead to our destruction if we're not careful. So overconsumption, overeating, overga, all of it, same evolutionary drive. But now that we have access to other resources can actually push us into the other direction. So I think.

• 45:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like we have the capacity to eat. As though we don't know when our next meal will come.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 45:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yet, in the, in the developed world, there's, you're never more than a few, you know, a meter away from a whole other meal in your refrigerator, or someone brings it to you, or someone brought it to the office, or some, and so, yet, we're still responding as though you don't know when your next meal's gonna come from.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, we have inbred, inbuilt things to crave sugar and carbohydrates, because we would need those things to seek them out to survive. And now, we have these foods that are packed, extra packed with the sugars and the high fat, and easy access to them, and, but the same old evolutionary mechanism, which leads to obesity.

• 46:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. Dave, we got time for one or two more. What do you got?

• 46:20Speaker 04

  Well, okay, um, you know, I wanted to, um, just, uh, more, this is more of a comment than a question, but, you know, I think-

• 46:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You'd be terrible in a lightning round. I just thought I-

• 46:30Speaker 01

  I know. I can feel Neil's urgency. He's like, what's the next question? How many questions do we get to?

• 46:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I don't think we, maybe, could be one on the, let me check the list.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  He's competing against himself on the list. How many can we get to? Before the clock on time runs out?

• 46:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, one last question. Dave, that's all you get.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  Okay, one last question. Let me see, let me pull from the list here. Um-

• 46:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By the, I think it's great, we got the whole world on these, on these, these calls, this is-

• 46:58Speaker 04

  This is a great one. This is, this is, uh, Melissa goes, by the way, Melissa, uh, early upfront, you know, Chuck, when you're cracking jokes, she commented, great intelligence has a great sense of humor. So, you, listen, you got a fan.

• 47:12Chuck Nice?

  Well, guess what, Melissa, you are just a person of impeccable taste and insight.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Well, she has a great question. So, does the lack of boredom stifle creativity? I mean, basically, you know, you, you don't have to be bored now. I got my phone, I could play a game, I could call somebody, I could-

• 47:27Chuck Nice?

  Loves that question. What a great question.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I say.

• 47:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Newton made great discoveries while he was holed up in his childhood home after he escaped London when the plague came through and they closed down the University of Cambridge and there he is like alone at home. Okay. And what are you going to do? Oh, I think I'll invent calculus or whatever, whatever he did in that period was quite productive. And because he had nothing else to do. So look at his apple tree in his backyard. So.

• 47:56Chuck Nice?

  There you have it, people. No matter what you did during the pandemic, you failed.

• 48:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I thought to myself, as we started quarantining, I said, wow, I got all these shows I can binge watch. And I said, no, I want to be Newton. I want to discover something. And so I did. We did finish the latest StarTalk book. Uh, cosmic queries over that time. So I was productive. I just want you to say, Heather.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, but you didn't discover, you know, gravity, but that's okay. I mean, that's okay.

• 48:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a tough crowd.

• 48:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a tough crowd, I tell you.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Gravity. I don't know. Um, but, um, no, you were very productive, Neil. You were very productive. Gold star, gold star. Gold star. Um, so I think it's a great question because it, the answer is definitely yes. Lack of boredom can inhibit creativity because when we're talking about lack of boredom, we're talking boredom, we're talking about distraction. Being engaged in a lot of tasks, never letting your mind just rest and be into these uh, flow states into these, what we call the default mode network of the brain when we're internally focused. That's when creativity arises. Then you can do the thing that you're, you know, you, you come up, Michelangelo comes up with this idea, make this sculpture, painting.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Then he actually does it. That's the busy work, right? But the initial spark of, of inspiration and creativity comes when you're in these default mode. When you're in the shower, when you're going for a walk, when you're not paying attention to anything in particular. So I would say, yes, be bored.

• 49:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The statue of David, busy work. Did you hear? That's what I'm like.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Pretty much. I mean, anyone can make a statue. What's the idea?

• 49:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just call that busy work.

• 49:40Chuck Nice?

  However, that's a great compliment. If, if the statue of David is busy work to you, just imagine your brilliance.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't have to bother making the statue. I just have to think about it and it's done. But yeah, I mean, being bored, letting your kids, it's a long car ride. Let them just look out the window. Let them, after, after the boredom, it forces them to become creative and start, you know, using their minds to entertain themselves. But you have to get through that pressure.

• 50:09Chuck Nice?

  Maybe not a car ride, Heather. Maybe not a place where you're trapped in the car.

• 50:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Heather, to your point, they only say, are we there yet? Like in the first 10 minutes. Later on, they don't say, are we there yet? Because I think they've got other activities.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  You gotta let them ride out that little rough spot. And then once they do, they'll get to the better place.

• 50:29Chuck Nice?

  They don't say, are we there yet? Because the parent says, don't make me come back there.

• 50:36Chuck Nice?

  Don't ask me again. And I swear, don't make me come back there.

• 50:41Speaker 04

  I remember my dad had a long arm. It went all the way.

• 50:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's no problem.

• 50:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You get arrested for that, slapping your kids. But back then, not okay, I think. It would all get slapped in the backseat.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Little slap. Okay.

• 50:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dave, thanks again for inviting Startalk to your family, to your, to your, your conferences, your celebrations of learning and in science. And, and Heather, it's always great to have you as a guest on Startalk. And, and Chuck, co-host, dude, where, where would we be without you? I always want to smile when I'm learning. And when I know if you're in the room, that's going to happen.

• 51:19Chuck Nice?

  Thanks, man. Thanks. It's always a pleasure.

• 51:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In, in just this way. So this has been a Startalk Pocket Labs edition, live streaming with its international community, with an international audience. So Dave, thanks to you and your entire Pocket Lab team for bringing us into your home.

• 51:40Chuck Nice?

  And to the rest of the world, let's just say we love you and we are so sorry about the last four years.

• 51:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Only to the internet. While we're on the subject, just in terms of COVID, just keep fighting the COVID. We've got a Delta variant out there. If you have access to a vaccine, definitely avail yourself of that. Otherwise, you will be unwittingly performing a biological experiment in unnatural selection by declining a vaccine that you could have had and then getting sick and possibly dying. If you want to avoid that, because we like you in the audience here. You're better off in this audience than dead. That's all. How's that for a lesson, David? That's a great way to end.

• 52:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let me tell you, after that, I see the more you know star.

• 52:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, I bid you.