Making a Phenom – Nurture

What does it take to be great? Host Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice explore greatness, grit, and more with Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll and world-renowned psychologist and author Angela Duckworth, PhD.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk Sports Edition. The Making of a Phenom. This is a series that we're doing just to try to understand what does it take to become great? What does it take to become the greatest of all time? And I've got with me, of course, Gary O'Reilly. Gary?

• 0:36Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil.

• 0:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're there, a football star from the UK. Excuse me, soccer.

• 0:42Chuck Nice?

  Thank you.

• 0:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Soccer. You're also a sports commentator after you retired there. So it's great to have you here. And Chuck, always good to have you, man.

• 0:51Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you know Neil, if I knew we were doing a show about the greatest of all time, all you had to do was ask me.

• 0:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Longtime StarTalk co-host, comedian, and apparently on your resume now it says actor. So I'm waiting to see what movie that shows, you show up in there.

• 1:08Chuck Nice?

  No, that's, you just noticed that, that's all. It's like, it's like when you buy a red car and you're like, there's so many red cars around. I've been an actor for many years.

• 1:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, all right. Well, this is the next in our mini-series, The Making of a Phenom.

• 1:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 1:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And in earlier episodes, we've talked about what might be the genetics of a phenom? The nature part of the equation. And today we want to talk about the nurture inside. Because to be nurtured requires a coach, it requires an environment, it requires resources for athletes to rise to become the best in their game. And there's only one person in the universe who I wanted to talk to about this. The one and only Pete Carroll. Pete was the favorite in the stadium of applause.

• 1:55Chuck Nice?

  The crowd went crazy right there.

• 1:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The crowd went crazy. Head coach and executive vice president of the Seattle Seahawks. You have a Super Bowl win under your belt with 2014 versus the Broncos. Very nice. One of only three coaches to have won a Super Bowl and a college football championship with USC. Very nice. And you are founder of the company Compete to Create. This is ambitious. We want to get into that and co-author of a book titled Compete to Create. How unimaginative.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Couldn't come up with anything else.

• 2:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And subtitled An Approach to Living and Leading Authentically. Yeah, because people know when you're not real. The people know. So tell me a little bit about your book this summer, summer 2020.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Well, we're really, really proud. It's an Audible original and Dr. Michael Gervais, who was a partner of mine, has been working with us for eight years at the Seahawks, really a performance master. And we've been working together to try to help our players be the best they can be. And in doing so, we've just shared a lot of time together. He has a tremendous amount of work that he's done in his past. So we did a little book in combination and really Mike leads and I kind of bring in the coach's corner, you know, about different topics and things that go along. And we connect some to what we do. But basically, we're talking about helping other people.

• 3:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you're saying if whatever I am, I can be better at it if I if I listen to your book. That's what you're saying?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  I would like to think that everybody would find ways to be challenged to improve the way they live their lives.

• 3:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I don't I don't care about getting better. I want to be the best.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, like Russell Wilson.

• 3:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, thank you. Forget just being better. I want to be your coach, one of the greatest coaches we have. I want to be the best. Is there any messages in there about that?

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It all starts with self-discovery, you know, to have a chance to be your best, you have to figure out who you are. And that is where our process always has begun. And that's until you can unlock what you're capable of doing, what you're capable of believing about yourself, you don't have a chance to to be a great performer because you can't recreate your performance. When you don't know who you are, it's hard to get back to it sometimes. It all starts there. And there's a lot of depth there. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of inner work, the hard work that you have to do that really challenges people. I'm surprised more people don't really take the time to step away from their busy world and take a look at what is important to them. It really just begins with beliefs. You know, you gotta figure that out.

• 4:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What about people who don't want to be challenged?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  They don't be great.

• 4:41Chuck Nice?

  Funny how that works.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  They're just not gonna make it, you know.

• 4:45Chuck Nice?

  I'm so interested to hear that that, you know, that you start there when you look at the level of play, especially in the NFL, which I think is the highest level of play. I want to say the NBA and the NFL are the two levels of, like, there's just, there's no comparison, you know, there just is no comparison. There's no other league or player that could step into those, onto those, onto that quarter field and compete with those guys. So with that being said, have you ever seen someone do the work you just talked about and elevate themselves because they unlocked that discovery?

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Not really, not consistently. Now, you did a lot of, you did a lot of hammering on Gary's sport here, so he sat back and let you say all that, not mention soccer. He was very poised back there. I'm sure he's getting ready to fire away. But, no, there's, without the, this extraordinary inner drive that pushes you for whatever, whatever it is that fuels you, the limits that you have to reach and the boundaries that you have to extend, just, they just don't happen, and they certainly don't happen consistently enough. When people, anybody can have a great day, anybody have a great game, you know, but can you come back and do it the next day and the next day? And to do that, you have to know where you're coming from, or you can't find your way back home. And so, it's really pretty simple, simple in that regard.

• 6:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What, Pete, are you, Pete, are you telling me that, you're espousing Yogi Bear's edict, 90% of the game is half mental? Is that, did you just say that? Did you just say that?

• 6:17Speaker 02

  I could easily have said it, I love Yogi, and I have stumbled my way through into that at times, yeah.

• 6:24Gary O'Reilly?

  You're not alone, Coach. I must ask you, I mean, any decent athlete wants higher performance levels. So in your program, there are so many areas of which you focus on. It might be sleep management, it might be understanding yourself, as you say. But what would you say are the indispensable elements of your compete to create program?

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think, I, we need the steps along the way. But I don't, I mean, if you're looking for a shortcut here, I don't know that there's a shortcut to being great. I think it's the long, hard road that you have to be willing to battle. But if you don't have the grit that it takes to persevere the hard work, then, and you have to have a kind of a love for the hard work, so that you keep coming back to the developmental process that gets you to be at the top of your game. So, I don't know, without the real inner grit part of it, and I would give you a little definition of that, but the aspect of it is perseverance, you have to keep coming back. You can't come and go, and sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't,

• 7:26Speaker 02

  and maintain the kind of level of performance that a person is capable of doing. And that's why there's great performers. The great performers that we always study are ones that not only have the athletic ability, this extraordinary athleticism, but they have this other aspect of them, and that makes them uncommon, and makes them unique, and makes them a pain in the ass, and it makes them just keep coming back. Wait, Pete, if this is about self-discovery, then what do we need you for, a coach? Well, the problem is, and I ask this all the time, Neil, if I'm talking to a group, I did it with a group of generals one time in a special forces unit get-together. And I asked them, "Okay, how many people out there have a philosophy?" And they, "Raise your hand."

• 8:10Speaker 02

  So, you know, about a quarter of them raised their hand. And I said, "Of those people, keep your hand up. Of those people who raise your hand, how many could stand up here right now and tell us from 20 words or less, or whatever, what your philosophy is?" And all the hands come down, you know? And there's like two guys that can't wait to tell you, and I don't want to hear their philosophy. But the point is... Which is an exercise. It wasn't real. The point is, so few people have taken the time to step aside from their normal life and really categorize what it is that they're all about. And it's, the process is not that complex, it's just tedious. And you have to, again, you have to have the drive inside that you want to figure this thing out, because you've got to get through it, so that the words that you put down on the paper that describe the things that you believe in

• 8:54Speaker 02

  are so comfortable with you that, "Yep, that's it, okay. No, no, I got one word that's wrong here, it doesn't feel right." You have to dig into it, so that you really find that authenticity, those statements that start to work.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Bring about the philosophy that you generally do. It's a series of the beliefs that make the philosophy and, and, uh, but you gotta do the work to get that done. And not many people are willing to do that.

• 9:16Chuck Nice?

  So that is fascinating in that, you know, the way you're framing it, which is extremely positive. And you seem to be that kind of person, like when, when, when you watch you on the sidelines. It's, it's like watching coaches is a whole nother entertainment in football that football fans really know about. And like all coaches have different personalities and you seem to be more of a like, yo, we're doing a do this. Let's get this. Let's get at this. Like, and, and, and what you just, what you just said right there was framed very positively. Have you ever come across a player who comes to that place from the negative?

• 9:56Chuck Nice?

  Maybe without an express philosophy, but they get to that same place, but from the negative. And what does that do?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, optimism really reigns in our program. It's, it's, you know, I, I really live my life thinking something good is just about to happen. So, I mean, that means no matter what just happened, I, I think I can find a way to turn that, you know? So that's one end of the spectrum, but I've got, I've had guys for years that don't, don't see the world that way at all. And so you have to work them around and one of the areas of, that's one of the parts of the program and in, in our book is talking about self-talk. And, and how you speak about yourself and to yourself, and that's a very powerful tool. And the people who come from the negative often see the negative. They often point out all of the things that could go wrong and all that. So we have a, a rule number two in the program is no, no whining, no complaining, no excuses. That's a big rule, but that's rule number two.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  And, and when somebody starts talking to the negative, then they become a rule number two violator and they get hammered because we don't.

• 10:50Chuck Nice?

  Illegal procedure.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we're, we're calling foul now because I don't want that, that talk to affect somebody else's mentality. Somebody else may be going to a good spot and then all of a sudden you're dragging them down. It's real important to deal with all different kinds of people, obviously. And lots of times there's, there's a point where you guys say, okay, I know you feel that way. Just shut up for a little bit here because I don't want to affect anybody else. And I'll listen to you in a minute. I give guys, uh, every once in a while, every once in a while, I give them a little airtime to, uh, kind of. You know, kind of air out their griefs, then their disappointments and their concerns and all that. We give them about two minutes and they don't, and that's about it. So they get a chance to get it out because you got to. But in general, the negative part of it doesn't mean that you can't be a great player. Doesn't mean that at all. Doesn't mean you can't be a great performer.

• 11:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, I forgot for a moment there that you're not only dealing with a team full of extraordinary players. You're dealing with a team full of extraordinary egos. They were like the best in their high school, the best in their college. Their name is up on a board somewhere. And so that this is, this is, this is not just managing their athletic ability.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  No, there, there is a lot that goes into the, the complicated individuals that we deal with. And I mean, I think everybody's complicated, but I also think everybody's extraordinarily unique too. And so it's my, it's our process. We're a relationship based organization. I mean, we, we care about figuring out how to deal with the people. He rolls his eyes. Oh yeah, okay. But we are because I need to know how I can best communicate with the individuals so that I can make sense to them. I have to take them a long ways sometimes and we got to teach them a lot. We got to have hold on to a lot of information, so.

• 12:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got Russell Wilson here, who's a star quarterback, yet he was like seventy fifth. It's what'd you say?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Third round.

• 12:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Third round. What, overall, what number was he picked?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  You might've had seventy five. I don't know. That might've been the number. I don't remember that. It might've been the twelfth guy in the third round. Maybe that's.

• 12:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Got you. Okay, there you go. So now, so here's the thing. Um, do you know he will rise higher than what he was when you obtained him? What, what, what of your book is give you insight into how you're picking people to say that person can self actualize? I hate that phrase, but that's what, that person knows where they are and they know where they can be.

• 13:03Chuck Nice?

  By the way, he's already great, so you can just lie and say, yes, I knew all along.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not one to try to do that one. You can take that shot if you want, but.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Russell is such an extraordinary man and he had, he came to us with a mentality that was an exceptional mentality, to the point where when we first were interviewing him back at the combine years and years ago, uh, somebody had told me that Russell Wilson is going to tell you things that you're going to think aren't going to be able to be true. He's gonna, he's gonna lay out this, he's gonna say this, he's gonna say that. He said, if I were you, I would give him a chance to say what he wants to say and give it a chance to happen because it's really likely that he's going to bring it, bring it to life. And this guy, he's done all of that. Russell Wilson has taught me that, that somebody can be so, that a person can live a life and be so extraordinarily consistently confident

• 13:58Speaker 02

  and believe in himself and, and, and make it come to work every single day, every day forever. He's missed one play, knock on wood, in, in the years we've been together, eight or nine years we've been together, he's missed one play. Uh, he, he's never missed practice, he's never missed a meeting, he's never, he, he's never missed, but forget all that. He's never missed the opportunity to be on the absolute tip of the, the spear and, and driving to be as good as he can be.

• 14:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and I gotta put this out there because I saved your ass on social media back when he did a Oh, boy. Here we go. He did, he, he, no, no, he did, he did the, I don't want to call it impossible because I'm talking physics here. He did the improbable. He did a rev, he did a lateral that was a forward pass, but he was running so fast that his backward lateral ended up moving forward on the grid itself. And so I just said, look, whatever the rules are, this, you can't fault the guy for running faster forward than the ball that he throws backward. You can't, you can't fault him.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's Galilean stuff.

• 15:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Galilean transformation. Uh, so that would be a play that, that consistent with what you said a moment ago, that he made happen that it's like, no, you can't do that, but he did it and he did it successfully and everyone said it's a legit play.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  He was probably one play in his career from going in the tank. When that happened, and you pointed it out, everything changed.

• 15:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  The whole world shifted. No, I'm just kidding. It didn't. That's not happening.

• 15:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was doing it.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  He's been lateral the ball his life, but somebody finally told us what just happened. That was, that was really a fun moment. Uh, I think, did you tweet that out or something?

• 15:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I tweeted it. I tweeted it, and you do it in slow motion. He's running forward. And who was the recei- the, the-

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Michael Davis.

• 15:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Michael Davis was behind him the whole time. He pitches back to him, but while the ball is airborne, they're both still running forward down the field.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then when Michael Davis catches the ball, he catches it forward of the point where Russell Wilson released it. But Russell Wilson is still ahead of him in this moment. So it was a beautifully executed play, and I'm glad they let it stay, because otherwise they'd have to slow down the game. Just, you can't fault the guy for running faster than the ball. Come on.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  There is nothing in the rulebook that talks about Galileo, I promise you.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  And they never mentioned the word transformation either. That's two losses. Neither, neither one of those are mentioned, but that was a great illustration. I think everybody that ever watched ball and saw that moment learned from that. That was, and everybody remembers how that worked. I used to think of his throwing stuff out the window when I was driving in the car, you know, to throw something that my buddy's driving next to me or something like that, and it stays with you. I had no idea. We were on to something. It was great.

• 16:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Let's go back to Russell Wilson. Not every player, as you well know, turns up with the full package on ball. And you know that there are players turn up with so much talent, it's untrue, but they fail to launch. How do you, as a coach, ensure that that failure becomes less and less and less each season?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Well, that is ultimately our challenge. That's what we're, we deal with on a regular basis. And so, I'll give you an idea. One of the things that we do when we get to know our players, and as we're learning who they are, what they are, is we try to gauge, you know, what kind of a competitor they are. What do they have innately in them that, that makes them who they are? And then, once we evaluate that, then we try to determine, how could we strategize ways to help him find other elements of his potential and see if we can't stir those? Sometimes you butt your head against the wall, it ain't, it ain't happening, you know? And, and some of the most marvelously talented athletes just don't have the other aspects of their makeup. And it's like, goes back to Yogi's thing, you know, it's-

• 17:49Speaker 02

  There's, there's a great deal of, of our performance arts are about the mental side of things and, and we can't deny that. And some players are able to lean on that even more than, than they do their athleticism. So we're always challenged. And so we have our ways, we kind of put them on the grid in a sense that we try to figure them out. And then we try to strategize and we'll, we'll even pair them with different people and have people, different people talk to them and we'll do whatever it takes. Because in our, in our sense, we're competing to figure that out. So that means we are going for it. So we relentlessly pursue trying to find a guy's highest points. You know, we have found that that whole mentality, which has been proven over time, you know, high expectations really do help people elevate their performance if you maintain a connection with it and keep them connected. So it's really cool stuff.

• 18:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, Coach, you and I both know, because we've been around people that are like what I'm about to describe. They will not adhere to a disciplined program. Yet, when they go out and perform, they max out all the levels. Yet, they will not conform to the program you've set in. How do you handle someone who gives you so much on the field and is a pain in the ass off the field?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Okay, I handle those guys really well.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  I've had a lot of experience with, with, with guys who, who will, you know, just don't want to conform. They just don't see themselves as part of the system, as part of the, you know, the ongoing way that the game has always been, or the being on the team and all that. But, and, and that's why, to me, it's, I don't know where it came from, but this, trying to unlock this unique quality, the extraordinary, special way that person presents themselves to their life, is really important to me. Because I don't want to miss a chance to find a guy's opportunity to be great in, in what he's pursuing. He wants to be a great ball player. Then, and even though all of these reasons get you, I've had guys in my past, back, particularly back in college. I've I've told guys, stop trying to get yourself thrown out of this program or kicked

• 19:47Speaker 02

  out of school. I'm not throwing you out. I don't care how hard you try, no matter what you do, you're not getting kicked out. I'm gonna be the one that hangs with you. I'm gonna be there at the end and still be pulling you through and not say, okay, you're a screw off and you're out of here. And so I, you know, I die hard on these guys because I particularly when I can feel it in my heart that they have something to offer and something to find in themselves. So, but yeah, that you have to find the level of communication that works with the with the athletes that are inclined to be kind of, I gotta be on the outside. You know, it's it's the most typical is the last guy that walks into the meeting room. I mean, like, come on, man. Obviously, you're just trying to make that, you know, okay, come on. You know, we'll make space for a guy who just can't cross that because that's what could otherwise that would get in his way. You'd be kicking the guy out of the program.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  He'd never have a chance to play and you'd miss the opportunity for that extraordinary input that he would bring.

• 20:37Chuck Nice?

  Do you find any that that is any position that is more prone to that mentality? So, I mean, there's gotta be personality, um, attributes that are, you know, that are pronounced in certain position play. I mean, I'm sure that a lineman and a wide receiver have different mentalities and personalities. I don't know this. I'm really asking. I've never played professional football, but it just seems that way.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  And I know, Chuck, you wouldn't want to be one to categorize and throw guys in a heap, right? Yeah. But, but yes, there is. And and there has been kind of a, it's kind of pass receivers and pass rushers for some reason. Those guys have always been the generally the guys that are the the farthest out there. And and even if when you look at it, wide receivers are the farthest away from the football and pass rushers are the farthest lineman away from the football. There's something about they they want to get a long ways away to do their business and and. But there are always people that cross over. There's guys in all different positions that have made the crossover to be in the knucklehead sometimes and also the extraordinary makeup and have the components that make them unique.

• 21:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Coach, there's an interesting, you said something, I think psychologically deep there. I mean, we're applying this to football, but I mean, we live in a time where there are medications to take you out of different mental states. If you're anxious, if you're depressed, if you're elated, if you're whatever. And in a day before we had these medications to centralize who and what you were, there are many people with great expressions of art, who had these odd personality, Isaac Newton among them. And so what I wonder is, what you have done is you've said to yourself, this person is a package and I'm going to handle everything in the package. I'm not going to edit it. I'm not going to

• 22:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  amputate bits of who and what they are because that's what they are. You've started taking away one part. You don't know if that's going to be torquing some other part of them that actually is enabling them to perform at their, at their highest game. So I just want to compliment you for seeing that and not being the disciplinarian because in the end, what have you done? You've taken away the joy. You've taken away the, the spirit, energy that these players had that got them there in the first place.

• 23:01Chuck Nice?

  Neil, what he didn't tell you though is that he puts ecstasy in their Gatorade.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  No, I just naturally infused that. But, but what I would say, there's a couple of things. That's a, you opened up a real, real interesting area here. One of them is in defense of a thought is that I think the discipline that it takes to be a great artist, the discipline that it takes to be a great dancer, a great musical performer, singer, piano player, whatever it is. As well as as an athlete, as well as a scientist, as well as a leader, as well. I I think that there's makeups that if we try to categorize them, we're gonna leave, we're gonna leave too many people out. And I I'm my my thought is that I need to be so open to extraordinary things that people

• 23:48Speaker 02

  have inside of them that I'm gonna go to the greatest length to uncover that. And in that, I think that takes discipline.

• 23:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but Coach, you're you you you are demonstrating to us that you have very high EQ. All right, the emotional quotient, I think they call it, where you know and understand how people are feeling, how people are thinking, how to manage that. But this is the 21st century, Jack, and we have AI, we have technology, we have chips to put in their shoes. We can know things about them that you're not gonna get just by singing kumbaya. So where is the balance between the technology you know that can help you improve your coaching and have them improve their game? And then the rest of what it is you've been describing?

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, we we have, I think we have one of the most cutting edge, you know, performance groups supporting our our program and analytics. All of the the science that we bring to it is there for us to process because there is marvelous information that comes through. But without, I don't know about AI stuff, but I do know that somewhere in here, you got to put that that information into use. And we have to make that declaration of where it does fit, and I'm sure that there's science to do that. But that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to take all the, see, if you're competing, and let me get this, you're either competing or you're not. That means you're either trying every single frickin' thing you can think of in every direction you can think of it until you can't, you can't breathe anymore to figure out how to solve a problem. And in that, what information is not worth?

• 25:15Speaker 02

  What would I, what would I turn away? What would I be willing to say, oh, I don't like that? I need everything.

• 25:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Coach, what's the phenom of the future gonna look like? Is it gonna be a Russell Wilson type of guy who gets the picture focused from before he even walks through your front door?

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I think, I don't think we're gonna be able to add so much to make a person an extraordinary competitive, you know, performer. I don't know that we have that. We can enhance it, uh, we, we can, you know, we can do a lot of things to improve them and make them more disciplined and, and find the repetitions that they need. But the, the really extraordinary athletes are, you know, they're, they're kind of born, I think, you know, the, there are people out there. The point I would make to that is that we're more able now than ever to teach young people what that is. What is that that they might, they might not have been able to understand that was working inside them and it got misdirected or misguided, that they can say, hey, wait a minute. I see things like that guy sees it. I can sense what he's sensing.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  And it takes them and they slowly gravitate their way to becoming something that always they had the potential, but hadn't been inspired yet, you know. So, uh, I think that there's gonna be more, but they're so rare and, and, uh, it's so worth looking for. But the point for us, let's just get them closer. Let's take them closer to, to the, to Mecca here. Let's see if we can get them to a place where they can really cut it loose and perform. And that's a, the whole performance model is something that'll be fun to talk about if you guys get to that.

• 26:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, this is very high wisdom. We gotta call a break here for this segment and, but when we come back, we're gonna have Angela Duckworth talking about Death Vet Renew. She'll catapult, catapult us further in this whole concept of grit and how it distinguishes those who achieve from everybody else. I'll start talking.

• 27:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Startalk, we're back. The making of a phenom. In the second segment, continuing what is the third installment of this series, we're going to bring in someone who is an expert on, shall we say, grit. All that it takes to want to do something, whatever that is, whatever that recipe might be. Coming off the horn with Pete Carroll, learning about how he's trying to get his players to be all they can be. And we've had to find the one expert in the world who knows about grit. In fact, she wrote the book on grit, Literally and Figuratively. And that's Professor Angela Duckworth. Angela, welcome to Startalk.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  Hi Neil, I'm happy to be here.

• 28:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The excellent, you're Professor of Psychology, University of Pennsylvania. Very cool. Author of Grit, The Power and Passion of Perseverance. See what you did there with that alliteration?

• 28:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, did you catch that? I'm glad you're here.

• 28:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Totally good.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  Writer for writer.

• 28:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You co-host the podcast, No Stupid Questions. That should be the title of every podcast. And you're also MacArthur Genius Fellow back in 2013. So you've got all the pedigree that we need and want for this show right now. So let's just come right out of this and say, what is grit?

• 28:45Speaker 04

  I've been studying high achievers for my whole career as a psychologist. And grit is one thing they have in common. And that is to say, they have passion and perseverance over really long timeframe. So they're not just crazy about what they do and working hard for like a day or a week, but for years, decades, and for some people, even a lifetime, working in one direction.

• 29:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, it's one thing to just identify it because they have it. But that's not as useful as not having it and wanting to get it. So is there a way to get it if you don't have it?

• 29:20Speaker 04

  You know, after I wrote the book, I actually collected more data and most people actually would like to be grittier.

• 29:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a thing.

• 29:27Speaker 04

  You know, you might ask, right? Like, why did I write a book? Maybe I should have done that before I wrote a book. But, you know, some people, by the way, don't. They're like, I'm good. And I actually didn't have many people at all say that they'd be like happier if they were less passionate about what they were doing, less hardworking, less resilient, less persevering. So, how do I get more of it? I mean, first, I'll say, I think almost everything about you, you know, like, how talkative you are, how gritty you are, how detail-oriented, really, anything about you psychologically, I think can be changed. And I think, for the most part, you can do something to change these things intentionally versus just like waiting around for age and experience. And, you know, I've lost the suggestions, but I'll start with one, which is just to

• 30:08Speaker 04

  believe that human nature is malleable, and that's often called a growth mindset, believing that abilities like intelligence or other things that seem like they're fixed and you'll never change them about yourself, actually biologically, true, that we're mostly, you know, works in progress. So, even believing that you could get grittier should help you become grittier.

• 30:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because it was one thing humans have, it's flexibility and adapting to circumstances and rising to the occasion. It reminds me of that quote, that Shakespeare quote from Twelfth Night, where he said, "Some people are born great, some people achieve greatness, and some people have greatness thrust upon them."

• 30:47Speaker 04

  I'm not going to add any words to Shakespeare.

• 30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, you can't.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  Can't mangle Shakespeare.

• 30:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. Gary, I know you have some questions for her.

• 30:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. Your research and your findings have been about the individual, that point where you find grit or grit finds you, whichever way this thing works. Go back to what we've just discussed with Pete Carroll. He's saying that he sets up a program in his environment where an athlete will not be thrown under the bus. They will not allow someone to fail. They pick him up and they drag. How important is it to have it from the other way around, where there's grit and determination in the external environment, not just fomenting itself in you?

• 31:30Speaker 04

  You know, one of the myths of grit is that it's like all about you, that it's like you against the world. And actually, when you study people, you know, women and men who are truly great at what they do, I mean, whether it's being a football player, or a civic activist, or, you know, physicist, they, they almost invariably, and in my research, like every time, have other people who are helping them, right? Most obviously, a coach, but also your teammates, but also, you know, your family, a significant other. So, so I think that one of the reasons why I, I like to study Pete as a, you know, example of grit, but also somebody who is intentionally cultivating grit, is that I think he gets that, right? Like, he understands that nobody is going to be an individual against the world who's

• 32:15Speaker 04

  really passionate and persevering. Everybody has to be part of a group, or a team, that is all of those things.

• 32:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. Because you can shower any random person with all that level of support, and they're not going to rise and become a pro football player.

• 32:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, they don't use a lottery to do the NFL draft, right?

• 32:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  You know, famously, the NFL draft is imperfect, right? So, you know, every season, people like to talk about how coaches, or scouts, or GMs got it wrong, with, you know, picking this person over, but, uh...

• 32:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  After the fact, especially, yes.

• 32:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, after the fact, when it's very easy to, uh, you know, look in the rearview mirror and say, well, you would've, could've, should've. Right. I, I think you can't take, like, any random person, put them on the Seahawks, and expect them to be Russell Wilson. So, it's not, uh, it's not either or, it's only, it's, you know, when it comes to, like, human nature and performance, it's always both and.

• 33:07Chuck Nice?

  So, what role does talent play in all of this? Let's say you're incredibly talented, and, quite frankly, for some people, things come easier for some than it does for others.

• 33:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So for that example Chuck, you're gonna, for this question, we're defining talent as the thing somebody seems to have without having really tried hard. And then say, well, let's develop that talent and everyone focuses on them. And, and so I'm, I'm curious about that because I'm, I'm not a big fan of thinking that someone has abilities because of some inbred talent. I'd like to believe, however delusional I am, that how good you are is how hard you've worked at it. So, yeah, I'm curious, how does the word talent rest with you?

• 33:51Speaker 04

  Well, I'm, I'm in your camp Neil. Let me, let me say, I don't think everybody's born exactly equal in all talents. So that's naive, but I don't think that's what either of us are saying. I think what we're saying is that when you find somebody who is truly world-class at what they do, it sometimes seems like they were born doing that. It sometimes feels like they have some, you know, supernatural ability that everyone else doesn't have. That's what makes them so great. But if you actually look under the hood and you find out, you know, what were they like in their first year, second year, third year, you so often find that there was a learning curve and there were hours and hours of practice. You know, we're having this conversation shortly after Anders Ericsson passed away,

• 34:35Speaker 04

  the world expert on world experts, and he had a very strong opinion on this. I mean, he really did. He had the extreme view that, you know, there are hardly any real genetic differences in talent. But I think the message, whether you want to go that far or not, is that greatness is earned.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we, in an earlier show, we had talked about, who's our famous swimmer with 87 gold medals? Michael Phelps. Michael Phelps, he, you know, you can say, oh, he's got the body type and he's got the this and he's got webbed toes or whatever you're gonna invoke.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  Double jointed.

• 35:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exactly. And then you realize the guy's in the, in the water 16 hours a day, or whatever the number is. The guy is working out all the fricking time. And the gills help. The gills do help.

• 35:18Gary O'Reilly?

  So when we drill down to this, do we get to the bottom layer and go talent is overrated?

• 35:24Speaker 04

  I think talent is overrated. I think effort is overshadowed, right? I mean, so many young people in particular count themselves out because, you know, they look to their left, they look to their right, and they see somebody who's, you know, better than them. And actually, you know, like, it's getting things faster, right? I mean, we've all experienced that, right? I remember, I don't even think I was, I know I wasn't the smartest person in my graduating class in college. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the smartest person in my high school. I mean, I would have been even the smartest person in my elementary school homeroom, right?

• 35:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, just to be clear, didn't you graduate summa cum laude?

• 35:56Speaker 04

  Magna cum laude.

• 35:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, excuse, oh, go, go, the idiot class. Magna cum laude, sorry.

• 36:02Speaker 04

  I'm still getting over it.

• 36:03Speaker 05

  So sorry for you.

• 36:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, just for the non-Latin fluent people, you can graduate cum laude, which was honors, and then magna cum laude, high honors, and then summa cum laude, highest honors. And so you were just high honors.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  I was just high honors, yeah, nothing special.

• 36:19Gary O'Reilly?

  I just hear phenom. I can't speak Latin, but I just hear phenom when you say it to me like that. Okay, Professor, this is eating away in my head now, we've had this discussion, because we've all been here. You're gonna do that until you get better, right? So if you do your effort and your energy, but you do it under duress because it's a punishment, or your technique is poor, surely, I'm dedicating myself to the task, I'm putting in the effort, but if it's misguided, am I not building myself a time bomb here?

• 36:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, so there are a couple of ways to get this wrong. One of the people that I interviewed for the book on grit was a double gold medal rower. And his first name was Matts, and the last name I will get wrong, so I'll just leave it at that. So, you know, he went and tried to like help other rowers like learn to be great. And one of the mistakes he found is that, you know, the idea sometimes in their head that you just work harder and longer, right? That there's no strategy. And in fact, that's wrong, right? He's like, no, you gotta work smarter too. So you can get it wrong by thinking like, I'm just gonna like work myself to the bone, but not think constantly, how could I do this better? You know, is there a faster way? Is there a more efficient way? Who should I be asking for advice?

• 37:33Speaker 04

  So you have to have a strategic mindset about practice and not just kind of like, oh, more is better and harder is better and more tired is better. I think that's one, like, big way people get things wrong.

• 37:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this is why, this is where good coaching matters and good guidance.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  I think good guidance, by the way, that often happens, not just in your coaches, coaches, but your parents, right? Like, I think that parents do their kids a great service when they model, but also when they just tell their kids like directly, that a lot in life is like not about, you know, just being exhausted when you fall into bed at night, but thinking cleverly and tactically about everything that you're doing.

• 38:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I want to get back to a point that Chuck made, which was, at what point is it valuable for others to pressure you to perform? What's that movie that with the drummer came out a couple of years ago?

• 38:25Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 38:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  JK Simmons. With JK Simmons was the...

• 38:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know, but what's it called? It's gonna kill me.

• 38:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, in that movie...

• 38:32Speaker 04

  One of us could Google it.

• 38:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That movie had a premise that I actually, in my life experience, for myself and anything I've ever seen, that I don't agree with. It assumes that you get great because someone is pushing you to greatness. And I think someone can push you to become better, but for someone to push you to become great, everyone I know who is great was self-driven. This is the grit that you're talking about. So at what point should a parent say, "I will not make my kid play piano three hours a day, every day from age six, because I'm gonna destroy them." At what point does that become, "They now perform in Carnegie Hall because I did that as a parent"?

• 39:11Speaker 04

  I mean, okay, we should talk about Andre Agassi, but before we do, let me just agree with you, like 100%. Like, I too, Neil, have like never found somebody who was truly great at what they did because they had tiger parents, right? You know, psychologists like to talk about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation comes from within. Your goals are, you know, things that you fully own and you feel like they were freely chosen. They feel like they express your identity, they're about your intrinsic interests.

• 39:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're not fulfilling someone else's lost dreams or anything, yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, my mom told me to, my dad will be disappointed, I can even make a lot of money doing this. These are all extrinsic motivations. And like you, I don't have examples from my research of people who became truly great without intrinsic motivation. But I do think we should talk about Andre Agassi because, you know, he does describe his child...

• 40:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:05Chuck Nice?

  It was insane. It was like basically child abuse at a country club. Country club child abuse. It was like country club child, get in there and hit that ball.

• 40:19Gary O'Reilly?

  I can't face another brunch.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  That's right. No smoked salmon if you don't get this across the net. But yeah, I mean, so I can't, I don't honestly, I don't have an explanation for that. Like I, but I have to say, like, if it's even true, then it's the exception that proves the rule. Because, you know, at some point, you know, the motivation runs out when it's extrinsic. And I'll also tell you this about truly gritty people and you could reflect the moment to see.

• 40:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just quick, we just got our researchers, the movie was Whiplash.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you. I can now sleep tonight. Because it was gonna bother me. Well, otherwise I'd have to Google it myself, actually. But, you know, one of the things that makes people great is, you know, this kind of like really effortful practice. Uh, it's called deliberate practice, but, but there's something else too, which is like, if you are really great at what you do, I guarantee you're thinking about it all the time. You think about it when you go to bed. You think about it when you wake up. You wake up in the middle of the night to get a drink of water, like I do. And you're literally thinking about this thing that you, it's like having a voluntary obsession. Um, and so I don't think that comes from external motivation.

• 41:20Chuck Nice?

  Now, can there be a grit gap bridge? So for instance.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, tell me more.

• 41:28Chuck Nice?

  So you see that in a child that they have a proclivity. And you see that they have a bent. And you know that you need to push them in that direction, but they're resisting. So now you apply the pressure, you push them. And then in the process, they become good. Their becoming good starts to motivate them. And there's the transfer of motivation from outward to inward. And now it's like, now I'm on my own, like training wheels.

• 42:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Chuck.

• 42:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get him across the gap, to get him across the gap.

• 42:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't believe in like, you know, basically substituting your motivation for your kid's motivation or your player's motivation for like years. But you're absolutely right, like every great coach knows that there are good days and bad days and that there are days where people come in and they're really confident and that there are days where they come in and they are not. And one of the things that coaches do is they, they are that bridge for that little bit. Sometimes that takes the form of pep talks. But very often, I'll tell you what coaches do is they, they strategically set up the next few experiences to provide some small wins, right? So, so they need, they know that they've got this like cycle of, you know, confidence and performance

• 42:45Speaker 04

  that can be positive, they know it can be negative too, and they just like kickstart the cycle with like a few, you know, a few, like I even know one coach, he actually lied, like he would like, you know, have a, a, he was a track coach, right? And so, you know, he had an excellent track athlete under, but like had a little slump, was feeling really down on himself. And he was like, you know what, I know you weren't feeling great today, but like just take, take, you know, four laps, right? Let's just see, see how you're doing, but like give it to me, right? And he just lied, he just was like, oh wow, that was a PR, right? And you know, you can't lie too much and I'm not advocating lying, but I do think that there are gaps, as you say, and, and a great parent or coach, you know, in strategic ways like helps fix those.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  But not like, you know, I'm substituting my motivation for your motivation for like a decade.

• 43:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Right. But that's coaching psychology, because, yeah, because you need that, Neil.

• 43:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, when I was in college, uh, we, we had a very rough wrestling schedule ahead of us and I think the coach was worried that we'd get trounced. And so in the calendar, he put in these other schools before the main season began and these are sort of lesser known competitors. And we just kicked ass the first part of the season. And we all felt pretty good. So this is the coach.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  Fortunately, that, that, that strategy doesn't work well for those people.

• 44:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For the other folks.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  Great for you.

• 44:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it was.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  Did you learn something from wrestling that you feel like, you know, did you learn like life lessons from wrestling that, you know, helped you become a great scientist or?

• 44:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Um, in fact, yes, I did, but we gotta take a break. And will you stay around for our third and final segment, which we call Shoot the Shit? Can you hang out for that?

• 44:21Speaker 04

  I can, but you're not gonna make me curse, but yeah.

• 44:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, shoot the stuff. How about that?

• 44:27Speaker 04

  I'd like that, yes.

• 44:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You'd like that, okay. When we come back, more of grit expert Angela Duckworth on StarTalk Sports Edition when we return.

• 44:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk, for the third and final segment of StarTalk Sports Edition, The Making of a Phenom. We're having a most excellent conversation with the woman who wrote the book on grit. And Angela, what's your full title of that book again? Grit the...

• 45:13Speaker 04

  Power of Passion and Perseverance.

• 45:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Power of Passion and Perseverance. And you're a professor of psychology at University of Pennsylvania, right there in Chuck's hometown.

• 45:23Chuck Nice?

  That's right, Philadelphia.

• 45:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Philadelphia.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  I'm from Philly. I didn't know that, Chuck.

• 45:27Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I'm originally from Philadelphia.

• 45:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we get it too often.

• 45:31Chuck Nice?

  Go Birds!

• 45:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's an Eagles fan, yeah.

• 45:33Chuck Nice?

  Yes, sir!

• 45:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, by the way Chuck, I did the count one day, there's like at least two dozen professional sports teams that are named after birds. So you can't just say, "Go Birds."

• 45:42Chuck Nice?

  Uh, no, no, no.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  There's only one bird.

• 45:45Chuck Nice?

  There's only one bird.

• 45:45Speaker 04

  There's only one bird.

• 45:47Chuck Nice?

  There's only one bird. See, that's the thing.

• 45:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Orioles are birds, the Seahawks are birds.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 45:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Blue Jays are birds.

• 45:56Speaker 04

  No, sorry.

• 45:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cardinals are birds.

• 45:58Chuck Nice?

  No, no, no. There's only one bird when you're talking about football, and that's the Philadelphia Eagles. By the way, the eagle-

• 46:05Speaker 04

  We won't break into song, but we could.

• 46:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, and the eagle, when you think about it, of all the birds you named, the eagle is the top of the food chain, so...

• 46:13Speaker 04

  I mean, look, eagle versus Oriole, right?

• 46:15Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oriole loses.

• 46:17Chuck Nice?

  That's an ornithological disaster, okay?

• 46:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, most birds will lose against an eagle, for sure.

• 46:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, we left off with the break. Angela, you had asked me whether my time as a wrestler contributed any insights. I think wrestling itself requires a bit of grit, maybe not in the academic sense that you're describing, but it's just you and an opponent, and it's in every bit of muscle, coordination, you know, strength, agility. And so, there's such focusing of that. And if you lose, you lost, because the person beat you. You can't blame it on the other team member, that somebody dropped your pass. There's none of that, okay?

• 47:00Speaker 04

  It's just you on, you're one on one.

• 47:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It is one on one, and it is like the purest form of combat, because it's just muscle against muscle. So, I think about wrestling, when, if I have a large task ahead of me, and it feels intractable, and I just think of being on the mat and thinking, "I will die unless I summon energy." It's like, you appeal to the gods, to, you know, you find places within your mind, body, soul, that you can reach to, to assemble motivation, strength, adrenaline, whatever is the key chemical, right, that, I mean, legal chemical,

• 47:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  physiological force, to enable it. And so, just remembering those moments, I think have helped me develop and sustain the grit that I know I have needed throughout my life. And you are right, even though I have to say it differently. You say you wake up in the middle of the night to get water. I wake up in the middle of the night to go pee. Okay? That's the difference between us.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  Well, that too.

• 48:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay?

• 48:06Speaker 04

  No, that too.

• 48:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, the-

• 48:08Speaker 04

  First one and the other.

• 48:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you're right. Practically every waking moment, I am thinking about the universe, and ways of delivering it, ways of, it is, it's almost an obsession. But let me, let me lead off, because we're just chewing fat here. Let me ask you, for these people who do have this grit that you describe, is it to the, at the expense of their home life, their family life, their personal hygiene, is it some, is the obsession in such a way that they become? Separated from the mainstream conduct of civilization?

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:44Chuck Nice?

  Well, let's hope for the wrestlers that it isn't personal hygiene.

• 48:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Agreed. Totally agree.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  It is actually. That's the personal hygiene. I dated one once, but anyway.

• 48:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You dated a wrestler? Was it a wrestler?

• 48:57Gary O'Reilly?

  That doesn't sound good.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm gonna stop right here. But I did, you know, once I was giving a talk and, you know, at a company that showered me nameless. And the wife of the CEO comes running after me. I'm like literally leaving to get into the car, go to the airport. And she was like, "All right, let me tell you something you didn't talk about, which is like, what do you think happens at home when somebody is so passionate and persevering about their work? That's like, that's all they do. That's all they think about. That's all they motivated by." And, you know, it didn't take me long to kind of figure out where she was going. But I do think an obsession, and when you said like, "It's almost like an obsession," it is an obsession, right? Like, it can crowd out other things. And that includes like your family or your kids.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  So I do think it's something that, you know, the root word of passion means sacrifice, right? So I don't want to paint like a perfect picture of grit because it's true that it can come at a cost.

• 49:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is this how you get the passion of Christ? Is the sacrifice of Christ?

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, same root word. I mean, I'm sure it was in like, you know, other languages.

• 50:04Gary O'Reilly?

  So Professor, if I get my grit and I get myself together and my external environment, my internal environment, but as my journey moves forward, the use of that grit is most likely going to change. Because in my twenties, I'll use it in one way. Maybe in my thirties and forties, I'll use it in another way. Or am I just making that up?

• 50:27Speaker 04

  No, I mean, I think as you like evolve, I mean, when you're a rookie, right? Like what you need to work on is like just different. I mean, you know, also, by the way, most athletes and even most people who aren't athletes, like they're employed in some company or something. They're not leaders yet, right? Like usually you don't lead until... You're in the game for us. At some point, you know, when you're a leader, the young people who are under you are better at you at certain things. You're just like coordinating everything, right? So, so I do think the challenges are different. But one thing I really admire about these, you know, paragons of grit, I like to call them, these like women and men who are maximum in passion and perseverance, is that they never stop learning. And Pete Carroll's a great example, right? Like, that guy is as curious to learn about what he should be

• 51:11Speaker 04

  doing now, at this point. What is he, the oldest coach in the NFL, I think, maybe?

• 51:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Sixty-eight.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  So, you know, as when he was a rookie coach. And that, to me, is really amazing, is like, whatever it is in your current chapter of life, to be like attacking it with that kind of passion.

• 51:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, but Angela, like, let me sharpen, let me shorten his question. If I have grit that makes me a great athlete, that has a time, that has an expiration date.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because there's a point where I can't be that same athlete.

• 51:42Speaker 04

  Can't be an athlete anymore, right, yeah.

• 51:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but okay, so, yeah, I'd become coach, but that, does that take grit to become a coach? If I needed the grit to be an athlete? So, what happens to grit? And for me, my grit can last until my brain doesn't work anymore.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I'm good with that. But, so, to tighten the question that Gary asked, the grit that gets you to where you need to be, that's a function of your physiology.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which then changes, and you cannot do it. What happens to that person?

• 52:07Speaker 04

  What happens next, right?

• 52:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, now, put on your psychology hat.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, tell me what happens to that person.

• 52:11Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, let's just use you as an example, right? Because it sounds like you learned a lot from wrestling. My guess is, knowing what you've done in your professional life, that you were probably a pretty gritty athlete when you were wrestling, if you cared about it, anyway, right? So, that's the same question, in a way, which is like, what transfers, right? So, when somebody like Michael Phelps stops swimming, right? Like, are they a total slacker? Or do they transfer that kind of attitude, those mindsets, those habits, like, to something else?

• 52:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, you're saying it's a deeper psychological mindset?

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so. I think so. I, I, I would say this, right? It, it is a struggle. As you probably know, many professional athletes struggle mightily when they retire.

• 52:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 04

  Right?

• 52:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 04

  You know, like.

• 52:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Definitely.

• 52:59Speaker 04

  And, and some could argue that like the majority, you know, don't do as well as we wished we could say they did, right? Like, uh, on all fronts. But some of them do. And I would say the, the trick, if you want to ask, like practically speaking, like, you know, if, if the good thing is to transfer all those psychological assets from something you used to do to something new, because it's different entirely. Um, the, the trick is to actually understand like the general principles, right? Like if wrestling, you know, I went to West Point and I actually talked to, um, the wrestlers there, among other athletes and,

• 53:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  And I remember actually the, the kid who I was talking to, who was a wrestler at West Point, said that when his coach talked about wrestling, he said, "I'm not talking about wrestling. I'm talking about life." And so the coach did this really good job of kind of like explaining like, "Oh, what happened today? That was about failure. All right, let's, let's talk about failure, right? Like, you know, this is called, this is called working on your weaknesses. Let's talk about that." And then that kid is gonna grow up and he's probably not gonna be a professional athlete, but you know, he's gonna carry those general lessons about life.

• 54:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. By the way, do you, uh, uh, none of you surely know this, but the, the, the wrestling, the National Wrestling Organization has a, uh, membership of Hall of Fame membership. And there's a category that doesn't go to people who are great wrestlers. It goes to people who are wrestlers who became great.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Oh, great people.

• 54:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, great people. And then, and you look at the list.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 54:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Abraham Lincoln. Did you know this boy wrestled?

• 54:31Speaker 04

  What?

• 54:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Our boy Abraham Lincoln wrestled.

• 54:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a brilliant category. So, so it's, it's great people who wrestle rather than wrestlers who, who are great wrestlers. So this is exactly in your line there.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, and maybe we should be like sharing that with kids, right? So that they could understand that like, look, you're not gonna play, you know, tennis forever. You're not gonna like run track forever, but like you're learning these life lessons.

• 54:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Let, let me ask this because, I mean, I'll use, because I'm British, I'll use.

• 54:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Again, we only have a few more minutes of you.

• 54:58Gary O'Reilly?

  I'll speak quickly.

• 54:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Speed that up.

• 55:00Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, so. You don't know how strong a teabag is until you drop it into hot water. So if you use that analogy with an individual, all of a sudden, this person is in a situation and the grit surfaces, but they've never, ever displayed it before. How do you encapsulate that?

• 55:16Chuck Nice?

  Well, they have greatness thrust upon them. Third-degree burns all over their body, for starters.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're gonna have to have a disclaimer on your show notes that you don't really mean that we should drop kids into hot water. Okay, so I do believe that, you know, sometimes people rise to the occasion, right? And like, they can display a character that, you know, maybe wasn't obvious before.

• 55:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is Shakespeare, greatness thrust upon you.

• 55:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, I'll also say as a psychologist, like, you know, it usually doesn't come out of the sky, right? You know, usually when people are, you know, great under pressure, or like, you know, demonstrate sterling character under like, conditions of adversity, it's not like there was no symptom or sign of that prior. So, I think greatness can be thrust upon you. I certainly believe the opportunity to learn is often thrust upon us.

• 56:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And just to, we gotta bring this to some closure, but let me try to get your final reflections, Angela. Does the grit, if a person keeps failing, and they keep coming back trying it a little differently, okay? It's possible to have grit, but not actually succeed. So, grit itself is not the guarantee of success, but what is the psychological, just getting back to your wheelhouse here, the psychology of the person who failed, is there the risk? What risks do you face? Getting back to, am I exercising this muscle by failing and recovering?

• 56:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What risk do I face of losing all hope in myself?

• 56:51Speaker 04

  You know, if you do something like the first year, or second year, or third year, or fourth year, I actually talked to this guy, he wanted to become a vet. It's really hard to become a veterinarian, it's like harder to get into vet school than med school, and like, literally, I think it was the 11th year, that, you know, he's denied admission at all the schools he applied to, and you could ask the question, does Angela Duckworth tell this guy to go for 12 years? Right? So, I didn't say like, "Hey..."

• 57:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The grit lady, what does the grit lady tell me?

• 57:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I didn't, I didn't say like, "Hey, maybe you should just keep applying", right? Because, because there's information there, right? I asked him, like, "Why do you think you didn't, like, get in?", and then, like, you know, he was talking about, like, you know, "Scores aren't good", whatever. But I asked him another question, which is like, "Why do you want to be a veterinarian", right? And he said, "You know, I love animals, like, it's just, you know, like, I really want to have my whole life to be, like, caring for animals." I was like, "Okay." Is there something else that you could do that gets you to the same end? Right? Is there a different end? And I think this is the thing, yeah, I think it can be really dangerous to be grittily pursuing some thing, where it is frankly a dead end, but I think if you ask yourself, "Why am I on this path?", right? You might find yourself, not in a dead end, but it's just a detour, right?

• 58:01Speaker 04

  Like, it's like, "Oh, I want to take care of animals, like, I could be a zookeeper", right? Like, I could actually work in, you know, like, somebody's lab, who's like, you know, doing research to help animals. Like, there are other ways that you could achieve the higher level goal, the sort of the "why" behind what you were doing in the first place, and I think that's the life lesson for me, is like, you should be gritty about your higher level goals, but you should be flexible about the lower level means to those ends.

• 58:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, that's great. Angela, thank you for being with us on StarTalk. You have this beautifully constructed expertise that we might have to come back to, to get a little more of what it is you have to... Very excellent to hear that. Chuck, always good to have you there. Gary, my man, my man, my British man. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. This has been StarTalk, Sports Edition, Episode 3 of The Making of a Phenom. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, bidding you to keep working up.