#ICYMI - Gender Inequality in Sports, with Heather O’Reilly

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…. Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice investigate the systemic gender bias and discrimination happening in professional sports with World Cup winner and former USWNT soccer star Heather O’Reilly, and economist Andrew Zimbalist, PhD. Photo Credit: Courtesy of Heather O’Reilly.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:02Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:03Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science.

• 0:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Today, we return to gender in sport and the pay gap between the women and the men. So, simply put, show me the money! And to help us understand what it takes to rise to the very, very top of her sport and stay there, we have Heather O'Reilly.

• 0:24Chuck Nice?

  She is a three-time Olympic gold medal winner and a World Cup winner and owner of 230 caps for the US Women's National Team over a 15-year period. And no, she is not related to Gary, is she?

• 0:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Duh. It's quite easy to see, really, when you think she's talented, really talented, and I don't have my name...

• 0:46Chuck Nice?

  Don't you dare put yourself down.

• 0:48Gary O'Reilly?

  I haven't got my name in that sentence, but banging on about the pay gap and gender inequality is meaningless, totally meaningless, if we can't explain the hows and the whys. So crunching the numbers for us and bringing a wealth of experience is Robert A. Woods, professor of economics at Smith College, Andrew Zimbalist. So let's get to the good professor, shall we?

• 1:09Chuck Nice?

  And we certainly shall. So Andrew has published numerous articles and books, 28 books to be exact, including Equal Pay, Title IX, and Social Change, The International Handbook of Economics and Mega-Sports Events, Circus Maximus: The Economic Gamble Behind Hosting the Olympics and the World Cup, and Rio 2016: Olympic Myths and Hard Realities. And that is just a smattering of what this man does. I don't know where he gets the time. I actually write an email in the morning and I have to take a nap. I don't get it. I don't get people like this. This guy's amazing. Welcome, Andrew Zimbalist.

• 1:54Chuck Nice?

  How are you, Andy?

• 1:55Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm doing great. How are you doing? Good, thank you.

• 1:57Chuck Nice?

  Doing well, man. Thank you for being here.

• 1:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Right, let's jump straight in. Sports, money, things that have now not been separated in sentences for some time. So... There seems to be a growing movement for gender equality in sports in terms of payments. Uh, I'll ask you a question. Where is it most likely to happen first? Which sport?

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's already happened in some sports, small sports. For instance, in mogul skiing in the United States, which is an Olympic sport, there are five women on the US mogul team and there are five men and they're treated the same. So in small sports that haven't been highly commercialized, you already see some of it. But in terms of the larger sports, where is it going to happen first? I think the suit that was brought by the women in US soccer is going to take us very close to gender equality. I mean, these women who are on the US national team, there are 28 of them, far outperform the men. They've been ranked first in the world 10 out of the last 11 years. They have won,

• 3:08Speaker 02

  they've won four Olympic gold medals. They've won three World Cups. These women play at the very top of their sport. They have generated more revenue and more profits for US Soccer Federation than the men have generated, yet their pay is 38%. And so they brought a suit, an Equal Pay Act suit against US Soccer. I think it has a very good chance. And so hopefully we'll see something approaching gender equality in women's soccer in the next three or four years.

• 3:37Chuck Nice?

  What about women's tennis? I mean, I think we have seen some kind of parity, a move towards parity from the market side. I believe that people are far more, not far more, equally as interested in seeing the women play, especially with respect to Serena, as they are to seeing Andy and the rest of the guys. What do you say about that?

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Well, actually, there has been tremendous progress also in women's tennis.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  As of a few years ago, each of the four Grand Slams awards the same prize money to the winner on the women's side as on the men's side.

• 4:12Chuck Nice?

  Excellent.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  The women don't do as well below first place.

• 4:15Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  As the men do, but the fact that the prize money for first place is equal is a tremendous accomplishment. And you're right, the fact of the matter is in women's tennis, that it really depends on who are the two men playing against each other and who are the two women playing against each other. And if the matchup is better for the women than it is for the men, then you might very well get A, more people in the stands and B, more people watching on television for the women's matches.

• 4:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  The men tend to edge out the women in terms of demand, the number of people watching, but it's not always the case.

• 4:48Gary O'Reilly?

  So what historically have been the arguments for men getting paid more, much more than the women when it comes to sports?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  The argument is almost always that the men's version of the competition is more popular. Because it's more popular, more people go to the arenas or the stadiums, more people watch on television, the prices of the tickets at the arenas or the stadiums is higher, so the men at the end of the day generate more revenue than the women. That's not always true, it's not always true in tennis, it's not always true in soccer. It doesn't always have to be true anyway. I mean, one of the reasons for the disparity, although a lot of people like to think, and this is something that Bobby Riggs used to argue with regard to Billie Jean King and tennis, is that, you know, we as men are so much better, our physical prowess is so much

• 5:40Speaker 02

  higher than the women's, and sports fans want to see the best, they don't want to see the second best or the third best. I think that that argument only goes so far.

• 5:49Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I mean, if that were really true, why would anybody watch a college football game? Because we know the NFL is better than FBS, Division One level football in college, why would anybody watch a college basketball? Why is Mark obsessed with March Madness?

• 6:03Chuck Nice?

  Why would anybody watch the Knicks?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  They still watching the next? Yeah, you know what? You just cannot take a filly out of you. Can't we? We can't take the filly out of him, professor. Sorry. The two problems with that argument are number one, that even if it's the case that women generate less revenue than men in some sports, it's not the case that they generate no revenue. So for instance, and this is remarkable to me in this day and age, and this is still happening, the men, when they win a game in the March Madness tournament, the NCAA basketball tournament, when the men's team wins a game, their conference is paid by the NCAA $280,000 each year for six successive years.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  So they get basically $1.7 million each game they win, and they can win six games going to the finals in that tournament. So they potentially can generate $10 million of revenue. How much do you think the women get for every game they win? I couldn't even. They get a big zero. No. Nothing. This is now, so go back to the argument. The standard argument is that the men generate more revenue than the women. Right. Okay, let's grant that. But the women don't generate zero revenue. They had average attendance at the women's final four of 12,000 people. ESPN was carrying the games on television. Right. ESPN, ESPN2. So there's. So there's revenue. Being generated. So maybe you could argue, maybe you could argue the men should get 280, the women should get only 200 or 140, but you can't argue they should get zero.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely. This is just crass discrimination. And part of the problem, it's very important, part of the problem is the media. The media doesn't pay due attention to the women. I had a student of mine do a survey looking at USA Today articles in the sports section on men and women, and the men are getting 90% of the coverage, the women are getting 10%. There was another study that was done for Southern California. The women get 4% of the coverage on the sports pages in Southern California. So these prejudices, these historical prejudices that we have are being reinforced by. By the media. Differential treatment by the media.

• 8:08Chuck Nice?

  Let me, let me, let me keep you on that same, in that same vein, and talk about Title IX for a second and the argument, and there's a big argument that says that. I'm talking all sports now, okay? That when you add women's teams and when you give women the opportunity to play, what you end up doing is displacing men's teams and taking away opportunities for men to play and people want to see the men play. What do you say to that argument? Because I'm sure you have some opinions.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, there's actually a long story behind all of that. Most of the reduction in men's teams happened in the 1980s, early 1990s, and it would have happened with men's wrestling.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  It's very interesting. This was a period of time when Ronald Reagan was president at first and he was followed by George Herbert Walker Bush. And both of those gentlemen didn't care a wink about implementing Title IX. And in fact Reagan had a, had a position was that the, the sports departments in universities, if they did not receive federal funding directly, shouldn't be subject to Title IX. So he didn't implement Title IX. So the period of time when the men suffered the most in terms of losing sports was a period when Title IX was not being implemented in any meaningful way.

• 9:28Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, beyond that, look, the, the point of college, intercollegiate athletics, the stated point in the NCA constitution is to promote a balanced existence for the college student. So that the student who at least notionally is leading a sedentary existence, reading books, writing papers, needs to balance that off to have a rounded emotional development, needs to balance it off with physical activity. One of the things intercollegiate sports brings to both men and women is not only that attempt to balance their lives, but in participating in those sports, they learn tenacity, they learn discipline, they learn time management, they learn leadership skills.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  They, they are less likely to fall subject to use of drugs and other abuses. So these are, these are benefits that should accrue equally to men and women. And there, there's no reason why you should say, given what the premise of college sports is, it's not generating money, it's not generating television eyeballs, it's generating balanced development for college students. Given that premise, I think that it's really silly to come forward and say the women don't deserve to have that benefit as much as the men do.

• 10:42Chuck Nice?

  Excellent, excellent point. I mean, seriously, Andy, you just nailed that. If this were an NCAA sanctioned gymnastics event, you nailed the landing, my friend. That was great.

• 10:55Gary O'Reilly?

  I'll tell you what I will do. I'll push it into the professional side. We'll go back to women's soccer. We have the World Cup in France in June of this year, 2019. Last year's men's World Cup grossed $6 billion. What do we think, Professor, the women's World Cup will gross?

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, you have to be very careful when you use numbers for these sport mega events. There's a lot of accounting chicanery that goes on. And so it's perilous just to throw out some number because somebody saw it in a newspaper. So $6 billion, maybe that's the right number, maybe it's some other number. The women have not generated as much total popularity, as much total demand as the men have generated. But it is true that when the US women won the last Women's World Cup in 2015, their final game had 23 million people watching it, which is the highest number of people watching a soccer match in the United States in the history of television in the United

• 11:58Speaker 02

  States. So the women might very well be below a $6 billion figure. I can't predict what that number will be. But they're going to be generating billions of dollars and they deserve to be rewarded commensurately.

• 12:13Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask you this. I mean, and I want you to, you know, speak as an economist here purely. What is the most effective means of changing public attitudes and subsequently beliefs about social issues? Because it seems to me from everything that you're saying and the current climate in which we live, it really is about perceptions, it's about attitudes, it's about, you know, how we think about sports in general. So is there anything from an economist's standpoint that speaks to changing public attitudes and getting people to shift perspectives on social issues?

• 12:54Speaker 02

  You're talking about how do we have a new gestalt about gender and their role in sports. And as an economist, as a pure economist, we don't know how to make revolution. That's not what our job is.

• 13:08Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Obviously, part of this is a long struggle. It's just something you have to keep at it. Things like the suit that the women's soccer team is bringing is going to push the envelope forward. I think that's very important. The media has to play a role here. You can't go to the newspapers and other media outlets and say to them, hey, look, you should give women 50% of all your coverage. Why? Because their readership isn't there. Their readership will go to another paper. The New York Times starts spending 50% of its sports pages on women. People are going to read the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post instead. But what the newspapers can do is not reinforce the status quo.

• 13:46Chuck Nice?

  Excellent.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  So instead of staying at 10% of media coverage for women, push the envelope, go up to 15%, go up to 20%, move your readership along. Don't reinforce the status quo. Even though you can't go to 50% tomorrow, you can move the ball forward.

• 14:01Chuck Nice?

  Excellent, excellent stuff.

• 14:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Professor, thank you.

• 14:04Chuck Nice?

  Hey, we know we're under time constraints, but can we have you back? Because it's great to talk to you.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yes. A pleasure to talk to you guys, too. Thanks for having me on.

• 14:12Chuck Nice?

  Without a doubt.

• 14:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Pleasure's ours. All right, thank you to Professor Andrew Zimbalist. Of his 28 books, my favorite title is Circus Maximus.

• 14:20Chuck Nice?

  Circus Maximus.

• 14:21Gary O'Reilly?

  It is. It just says so much just in the title.

• 14:24Chuck Nice?

  My name is Marcus Aurelius, father to a slain son. Oh, not that Circus Maximus.

• 14:30Gary O'Reilly?

  No.

• 14:30Chuck Nice?

  Okay, all right.

• 14:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Great film, though.

• 14:32Chuck Nice?

  Sorry, yeah, wasn't it?

• 14:33Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, there'll be lots of swords and lions and... No, there won't be. There'll be a fabulous soccer player on the show. Someone whose career I have followed for some time. A World Cup winner, an Olympic gold medal winner.

• 14:50Chuck Nice?

  Indeed.

• 14:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Times three. A 15-year international career. That's not related to me.

• 14:55Chuck Nice?

  Yes, he is.

• 14:56Gary O'Reilly?

  But her name is Heather O'Reilly.

• 14:57Chuck Nice?

  Gary's niece is going to be here, people. A family reunion ticket, please, right here on this show. Heather O'Reilly and Gary O'Reilly, two professional soccer players finally reconnecting right here on our show. Oh, my God, I feel just like Oprah.

• 15:12Gary O'Reilly?

  We'll take that break now.

• 15:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. We're talking about gender in sports, particularly pay inequality currently seen between the women and the men and the women. Just heard from Dr. Andrew Zimbalist, which was...

• 15:45Chuck Nice?

  Fantastic conversation.

• 15:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, to open up the numbers and give us an idea.

• 15:49Chuck Nice?

  And now we're gonna talk to one of Gary's family members who happens to be a soccer player too. It runs in the family, man.

• 15:57Gary O'Reilly?

  No, I don't have three Olympic gold medals and neither do I have a World Cup winner's medal. But Heather O'Reilly does.

• 16:06Chuck Nice?

  She certainly does.

• 16:07Gary O'Reilly?

  And I am honoured, truly honoured, to be in your presence. So, yeah. Welcome to Playing with Science.

• 16:12Chuck Nice?

  Welcome, Heather.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you. I'm very happy to be here. Thanks, guys.

• 16:17Chuck Nice?

  Hey, Heather, all you do is win, win, win no matter what. What is happening with that?

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, I have, I have won a few things in my day. Uh, you know what? You can't focus on that, though. You just gotta keep, keep plugging along and keep focusing on, on being a good person, being a good teammate, bringing your best off every single day, competing like hell to be the best, and good things happen. So, good things have happened to me and I, uh, I'm in, I'm in my last year now as a professional player. So, hopefully I'll get a few more trophies under the belt, uh, in my swan song last season.

• 16:55Chuck Nice?

  Hey, you know what? You said that...

• 16:57Gary O'Reilly?

  We're gonna get to that.

• 16:58Chuck Nice?

  I wanted to get to that later, but...

• 16:59Gary O'Reilly?

  We are, we are. Don't worry. Uh, let's, let's, let's sort of wind it back a little bit. Why did you end up playing football, soccer, uh, as a young person? Because it is, as you growing up, it would have been such a male-dominated sport. What led you to the beautiful game?

• 17:14Chuck Nice?

  And by the way, not just male-dominated, an obscure male-dominated sport.

• 17:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Get out of here with obscure.

• 17:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, come on, we're talking, this is Merck, man. Come on now. Come on now.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  Well... Okay, so I grew up in central New Jersey. I had three older brothers. And New Jersey wa- uh, where I grew up was sort of a community of immigrants. So a lot of English folks, a lot of Scottish guys that were soccer coaches. That explains a lot. I grew up in a really soccer-rich community. I mean, soccer was like the cool sport to play in my town. And uh, my brothers all played, so you know, it was, it was an easy choice for me. Uh, I don't have one of those stories where I had like short hair and had to play on the boys' team and all that kind of thing. Um, I think because of Title IX, which is a, a really important piece of legislature that was enacted in the seventies in the US.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  It gave women and men a real um, equal opportunity to perform in high school and college sports. So I consider myself a product of that piece of legislature. And then also, I consider myself a, a product of the Women's nineteen ninety-nine World Cup. Which was actually, the opening game of the World Cup was at Giant Stadium, not too far from where I grew up. And so I was just this teenage kid in the stands, watching the women play. And the women won the World Cup that year and like, I was just this fourteen-year-old girl with tears in my eyes, just so inspired. And then I said, I wanna do that. And then I set my, set my goals big that I wanted to, you know, be on the national team.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  And also um, try to win World Cups, try to win Olympics. Um, so I was very lucky to have these female um, id- idols and icons right in front of me that I was able to see. Because there's a saying, you can't be it uh, unless you see it. So I think that the, the stars aligned for me and I consider myself fortunate because I know that I worked hard. And I had an incredible um, work ethic and, and discipline. But at the end of the day, I also had really good coaches. I had a supportive family. And I just so happened to see those women win the ninety-nine World Cup, which uh, sort of lit a fire in me.

• 19:28Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know, I have to say that's a very humble and gracious answer. But let's be real, you're 14 years old and you say to yourself, I'm gonna do that. And then, and then at 17, you're doing it. So as much as you can say like, hey, I'm fortunate, there's a lot of heather in that success. And I know you're not gonna say it, but I'm gonna say it. That's incredible. When I was 14, I mean, seriously, if I took a nap in the middle of the day, that was an accomplishment as far as I was concerned. So, I mean.

• 20:03Gary O'Reilly?

  No, so I know, I know where Heather's been in the sense of you go, you see the light bulb, the fire, whichever, whichever analogy you have, you then take it forward. Now, I mean, you were in the US Women's National Team at 19.

• 20:17Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:18Gary O'Reilly?

  How do you cope with that mentally, the psychology of it?

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Well, I actually made the team at 17.

• 20:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, then I.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  I, I made the team at 17.

• 20:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  And then I competed in my first Olympic Games at 19.

• 20:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  So it was weird to be honest because I'm sure you guys can attest, you have your, your, you know, people that you look up to, your role models, right? These stars, whether it's Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky or Maradona or any, any of these superstars that you look up to. And I had posters of these women in my wall, on my walls in my bedroom. And then I get this call on the telephone, that's kind of like old school version of getting the call up to the national team, got a call. And, and they said that there was a place for me, somebody had gotten injured and they wanted to invest in me as a young player and come in. So I thought that it was like, first, I thought it was like a prank call from one of my friends.

• 21:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, that's friends for you.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  It wasn't a prank call and they, they actually thought that I was special and unique and could bring something to the team that nobody else could. So I think in the beginning, it was a real test of my young confidence because.

• 21:28Speaker 03

  It was kind of a weird situation. Here I was now competing with these women, actually trying to earn playing time over some of these women that I really looked up to. So as a young player, it was, uh, it was an interesting place for me to be in, but I, I, again, I believed in myself a lot. I had this, you know, this incredible self-belief that bordered on arrogance, but, you know, it carried me through.

• 21:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Sounds familiar.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  A lot of times when I was, when I was, uh, you know, kind of doubting myself as a young player. Um, and, you know, it worked out for me. It wasn't always smooth sailing. There was, of course, injuries and adversities along the way, but, um, I proved my worth at a really young age that I could help the team win.

• 22:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, from that point, from that point to where you are now, could you look back and go, what was the biggest change in a beneficial way for you? Was it a, a coach, a strategy, maybe an introduction of technology that you went, that really did change my game?

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Um, I think for my entire career, I was always known as the fit, fast player. For a lot of, a lot of my career in the national team, we played a conventional four, four, two, and I was like an outside midfielder, um, you know, ru- you know, putting the paces in on the outside of the field. So I think to answer your question, I think I committed to being a reliable, fit player on the team. And that wasn't always easy because everybody's, everybody's pretty fit, but I wanted to be the fittest on the team.

• 23:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  And I think that, um, you know, coaches always kind of told me to control what I can control. And I always thought that being super fit and having an engine and being positive were, were things that, it didn't matter if you're talking about, you know, a twenty-year-old or a third-year-old. Coaches want it on teams, players want it on teams. It helps everybody on the training ground, even if I'm not even getting into a game. I feel like I've helped teams succeed, um, and, and I've been able to push teammates, um, to higher levels than they, they could have gone if I wasn't there. And I think, uh, yeah, I think I, I just had, I had coaches that told me to just be true to myself. And I know that being true

• 23:44Speaker 03

  to myself was being fitter than everybody and outworking everybody. So. I tried to do that for a very long time.

• 23:50Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, we've got to address the one big mistake in your career, which was moving to London and playing for them, them being Arsenal. Now, you don't know that I'm a childhood Tottenham fan, and probably you may or may not, that I used to play for Tottenham.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  I know this.

• 24:03Gary O'Reilly?

  So for you to go to Arsenal as an O'Reilly really doesn't sit too well with me. But you must have had a great time because the experience of European football at such a wonderful club like the Arsenal must have been fabulous.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Oh, it was incredible. It was always something that I wanted to do in my career, and it was just about finding, you know, the right time to make a move like that. And I had hung up my boots from international play in 2016, but playing overseas in Europe was something, you know, on my resume that I hadn't been able to do yet. I hadn't won, you know, any trophies overseas. I hadn't been part of any, you know, major clubs. And so I wouldn't have gone anywhere, you know. I didn't want to, I could have gone on to Cyprus, for instance, and played Champions League football, but I didn't want to. I wanted to be in London, be in one of the best clubs in the world. And I wanted to help English football, to be honest, because they have, you know, a lot of potential in terms of their women's national team

• 25:00Speaker 03

  and also the FA Women's Super League. They have this huge potential that they're sitting on. And I thought that I just wanted to really be part of it. I wanted to help bring visibility to the league any way that I can. And to be honest, I wanted to like just completely dive into the football culture. And I did, I went to as many games as I could go to across England. I, of course, went to see the Gunners play as many times as I could at the Emirates. We had tickets. Our men's and women's team did, you know, some events together and we trained at the same facility, which was really special for me, especially to be there in Arsene Wenger's last season, to be honest. It was really special. And actually, on the last day, when he announced his stepping down, we were having lunch in the same, you know, sort of lunchroom,

• 25:45Speaker 03

  which we did from time to time. And I had a lump in my throat, I didn't even care. I went over to Arsene and just thank you for, thank him for his unbelievable contribution to football and to the club and that it was such an honour for me to be there at the same time as him. And of course, he was so gracious and he said, "Thank you, good luck with your career. I'll be looking out for you."

• 26:10Speaker 03

  And he was, he was so sweet and yeah, what a, what a privilege.

• 26:13Chuck Nice?

  He'll have total respect for the women's teams without a doubt. So, you know, you play, you make it look effortless. The way you lead, it's clearly that you are a leader and it's clear that um your teammates like being led by you. You know, there's a, there's a comfortability that seems to be very um evident uh when you're on the pitch. And so uh what would you, starting at age seventeen and being who you are now, still very young, but have accomplished so much. What would you now say to seventeen year old you?

• 26:51Chuck Nice?

  A little game of note to self will play, you know, what would you say to the seventeen year old you who just got the call? Man, you're on this team, man. And I can't, I can't imagine at seventeen what was going through your mind, but what would you now say to that you back then?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Hmm. I guess I would just say to be sure of yourself. I think in football and in life, you go through seasons of, of highs and lows. And the thing that I think saves you from getting carried away on either side of those highs and lows are, you know, a, a core of steel, I would say, in terms of knowing yourself and your own value and your own worth. I mean, as, as Gary knows, I mean, sometimes as a footballer, you judge your value, your contribution to this planet on your play on the soccer pitch. And it's like, if you allow yourself to get so carried away with um the good and the bad and the,

• 27:52Speaker 03

  I miss this shot or I miss this opportunity, um you know, I don't think that you can have a sustained career because it's just so much of a, a emotional roller coaster. So I would just tell my young self, you know, there's going to be seasons of adversity, there's going to be tough times. Just be true to yourself and be sure of yourself and surround yourself with positive people and people that. Will push you and look out for you because there's a lot of jealous people in this world that believe that the only way to launch themselves up is to push others down. And I would, you know, as a young person, of course, you you know, you don't know yourself quite yet. So you involve yourself with people like that.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  And I would just tell myself to to stick by my true values.

• 28:38Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  And surround myself with the most positive people and just try to make a an influence on on teams that I know I can. So I wouldn't let myself get carried away with the good or the bad. And I wouldn't let my my human value be determined by success or failure on the football pitch.

• 28:55Chuck Nice?

  That is very good advice for any seventeen year old about to do anything. That's a.

• 28:59Gary O'Reilly?

  And what's interesting, because I I used to have the same sort of mantra. Don't get too disappointed when you lose. Don't get too carried away when you win.

• 29:06Chuck Nice?

  Right, when you win.

• 29:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Just that nice, easy, easy. Okay, so let's.

• 29:10Chuck Nice?

  And speaking of pe- keeping people down, I'm just gonna say, full disclosure, I'm using an intern as a chair right now. I'm just saying.

• 29:17Gary O'Reilly?

  The good news is it's a different intern from last week. Uh, right, let's get on to something.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  That's kind of you.

• 29:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Isn't it?

• 29:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 29:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Chuck Chuck's such an egalitarian.

• 29:27Chuck Nice?

  I'm not a monster, Heather.

• 29:31Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, we can't have someone like yourself with the status that you have in women's soccer in the U.S. and not discuss the pay gap that you find right now. Uh, the lawsuit that's out there against U.S. Soccer Federation. Where do you stand with the national team? Let's let's focus here on the national team and the World Cup as regards what is the reasoning, the thinking, and where you think it should be in terms of the pay divide for women's players in the U.S.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, first of all, I I think I just want to make clear that I'm certainly not speaking for the team and not speaking for anybody else except for myself as an individual. And I'm actually not part of uh the U.S. squad that is bringing this lawsuit. So just speaking from a from an outside observer, I I think that the reality is, um, and I knew this when I was with the U.S. team.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  To an extent, but there has been an institutionalized bias and gender discrimination for decades at US Soccer, since the nineties. And our team has a history and in our DNA to continue to unravel these institutionalized biases that have have always been around. And, you know, from the day, from the early nineties of of winning the ninety-one World Cup, they fought for more. At that day, it had to do with uniforms and bus rides and things like that. And then they go on to win the ninety-nine World Cup and the part of Olympic Games and all this stuff.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  And it's, you know, I don't think that there was a an early conversation that was just laid out and said, okay, what does equal look like? How do we get there? And so because of that, it's always been a bit of a battle, right? And I think it's really important for people to realize, USA Soccer, US Soccer is a nonprofit organization that is supposed to represent all of football across the US. And because of those reasons, I think that the men's and women's teams should be paid equally. I think, you know, within within that, there was performance bonuses, et cetera. Um, but this is Team USA. I mean, for club football,

• 31:59Speaker 03

  no question, but we're talking about your Olympic team, your your national team. Um, and I think that the US has a real responsibility and obligation to lead the world. Because of course, they can look at FIFA and say, well, this is why, because FIFA money is coming in from World Cups and X, Y, and Z. Well, of course. But like, that's not a reason for us to not be a leader in the US and do things the right way.

• 32:28Chuck Nice?

  So I'm gonna go you one better Heather. Uh, the women should be paid more. And the reason is because they're better. How about that? How about that? When the men win something, okay, then maybe, maybe they can come up to a place of parity. But right now, they are losers. And they are always losers, okay? Every four years, they do nothing but lose. Where you guys are winners. You are the crowning jewel of Olympic sports for this country, especially when it comes to soccer. You're the only good thing that happens with respect to soccer in this country. And I'm gonna say it for you. Pay me! Okay, um, anyway, I'm done.

• 33:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, maybe, maybe you'll get the team to speak to Chuck.

• 33:12Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 33:13Gary O'Reilly?

  As things progress.

• 33:14Chuck Nice?

  Tell them to get, tell them to call me, I'll take care of this for them.

• 33:17Gary O'Reilly?

  I think they got it covered.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  I mean incredibly high standards too. I mean, we're, we're, we are expected to win the World Cup every year. I mean, that is the sta- and we wouldn't want it any other way. But I, I do think that it needs to be known that these are incredibly high standards for our squad. Um, and you know, the, the rest of the world is catching up. And so, you know, we can't just rely on these bonuses coming in if we win the World Cup. I mean, that's an absurd standard. So, thank you for saying that Chuck, I do, I do appreciate it. We've come a far way, there's no doubt. But we can't keep patting ourselves on the back every time we say like, well, we've done more than the rest of the world. Okay, well, so has the team.

• 34:00Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  And so, um, you know, it, there needs to be the, the cycle that, that we see over and over again with media coverage, sponsorships, TV rights, all this stuff. It's a terribly, you know, toxic cycle. And we, we just truly believe that USA Soccer, US Soccer has an incredible opportunity to break the cycle, put their stake in the ground and say, this is the right thing to do. We believe in our women, they, they, you know, performed for us. And we're gonna break this, this vicious cycle by doing this.

• 34:36Chuck Nice?

  Fantastic.

• 34:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Chuck, now you know why Heather's a leader.

• 34:38Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 34:38Gary O'Reilly?

  In the locker room.

• 34:39Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 34:39Gary O'Reilly?

  And on the field.

• 34:40Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 34:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Now you, you-

• 34:41Chuck Nice?

  And she should be a diplomat, because that was a-

• 34:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh yeah.

• 34:44Chuck Nice?

  That was well played Heather.

• 34:45Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, you, you're also an advocate for LGBT-

• 34:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Athletes with athlete ally, am I correct?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 34:54Gary O'Reilly?

  And you see, this, this is not just about, I want more money.

• 34:58Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 34:58Gary O'Reilly?

  There's a, there's a, there's a unity.

• 35:00Chuck Nice?

  Equanimity.

• 35:01Gary O'Reilly?

  There is a real common thread here, leadership off and on the field.

• 35:05Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 35:06Gary O'Reilly?

  And unity, so we applaud you most definitely.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Thanks, I think, I think, I, you know, not all athletes feel a responsibility to do more off the pitch. I mean, and that's their prerogative, some people just wanna bag balls and call it a day. You know, but I think that, you know, being an, an athlete, you have a lot of eyes on you. And I've felt like a, a responsibility for many years to, to use our platform for good, to leave the world a little bit better because we have this gift and this talent. And we used it well and we used our platform well. So, you know, whether it be LGBT, um, you know, questions, I'm always gonna back, um, fairness and equality.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  And I think sport has done a good thing in pushing society, but in certain ways, it's, it's been a little bit slow. So, in LGBT matters, I think football has been a little bit slow. I think that we can continue to, um, you know, to show people that they are always welcome. Uh, you know, you know, athletes that wanna come out on their teams should be cared for just like any teammate, uh, and loved and, and respected as the incredible footballer that they are. So, um, I'll always support that. We, we've seen a lot of problems with racism in, in England right now. And I think the, the PFA players just, uh, Players Union just came out with a wonderful social campaign and they just said enough, enough.

• 36:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Correct.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Like, we're standing together as, as a union and just saying like, you're not doing enough to protect your players. So, I'm, I'm always looking to, to protect people and to use this amazing. I mean, football is one of the only things that everybody around the world loves. And is visible. I think that it's one of the most important vehicles for social change that I can even think of. So, you know, you have to use your platform.

• 37:00Gary O'Reilly?

  I endorse everything you said there. It is such a great vehicle. Listen, I know we gotta go. This vehicle's gonna come to a stop. And I've got to address this because you have you have posted already in the last week or so that you will retire from playing at the end of this season, which is 2019. Now, I'm on the other side of that particular looking glass, right? And you retired a lot longer than you play. So how did retirement find you? What did it say to you as to why you chose?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Why I chose that it was time?

• 37:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Oh, very, I mean, it's very hard and very emotional. Um, as you know, Gary, I think we we love this game so much and we've been doing it for a long time. Um, and I I think I always wanted to. I use the phrase empty my tank. You know, I could have, I I won the World Cup in 2015 and and no doubt I had a very full career at that point. I could have just said, I'm out, I won the World Cup, it's time. But I still had a little bit left in my tank and I still had a little bit left in my heart. Um, and so going to England, playing with Arsenal with a year and a half, and now I'm back in my community that I live with my husband, Dave. I'm back um in in the place where it sort of all started for me.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  So for me, it's been a full cycle kind of experience. And I look at these younger players and I just think, you know, it it is time. I I've done it. I have, I I've done it more than most. Um, and I emptied my tank. I think I have like a a few drops left, um, which will always keep me loving the game and will keep me playing, you know, pickup soccer, all that kind of fun stuff. So I've kept a little bit of the love in the eh of the game, but I've nearly emptied my tank. And uh, the good thing is, is I know that the future is bright. I think I'm gonna I'm gonna do some broadcasting this summer with Fox Sports at the Women's World Cup, so that will be interesting, me being on the other side of the lines.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  And I want to get my coaching badges as well. So I love this game a lot. I know I'm always gonna be be part of it and it's just taking on another form now, but.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  As you said Gary, I mean it's a tough, it's a transition time that all athletes face at different points. Some are, you know, out from injury or some, um, it's not sort of on their terms and all that stuff can be very difficult. So I'm really grateful that I'm going into this last season healthy and happy and ready to help my team.

• 39:32Chuck Nice?

  I know how you feel. I, I had that same feeling when I retired from professional soccer myself. The game misses you. Yeah, the game does miss me. I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure the fans are still crestfallen. They are. Beside themselves with words. Wait, before you go Heather, just one quick thing. Okay. So follow Heather, um, at Heather O'Reilly on Twitter. Okay. And, um, here's what I want, I want to give you, you do something called little known fact. All right. And, and, and they're, and they're very funny. Okay. So I just want you to respond to this one or don't. Okay. I just want to read it for our fans. All right. Because little known fact, after years of being a thorn for the US in the World Cups, North Korea did not qualify for 2019 and in 2015, they were banned

• 40:17Chuck Nice?

  due to five failed drug tests in 2011. Stated reason for failing, they had accidentally taken steroids after being struck by lightning.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:28Chuck Nice?

  What does, what does North Korea have to do to you?

• 40:33Speaker 04

  You can't write that up. I think, uh, you know, we've seen it all with FIFA and I think that even FIFA was a loss for words when the North Korean coaching staff said that it was because they were struck by lightning and they mistakenly took medicine to, to heal themselves. I don't think anybody saw that coming, but you know what? I wasn't there. I can't say if it happened or didn't happen, but, um, all I'm saying is that I think that it shocked a few people in that press conference and, uh, North Korea, who was usually a really good opponent, hasn't been seen in the last couple of tournaments. I wish them well.

• 41:08Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 41:08Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 41:09Chuck Nice?

  Stranger Stranger Things.

• 41:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Just don't stand under the tree. Um, Heather, we've got to let you go. Um, have a fabulous rest of the season and it is the game's loss and broadcasting's bonus that you're going to be there in the Women's World Cup in France in June 2019. So we wish you the very, very best of luck.

• 41:28Chuck Nice?

  We salute you.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  Thank you very much, guys. I enjoyed it.

• 41:32Chuck Nice?

  Wow. Your niece is fantastic.

• 41:35Gary O'Reilly?

  No.

• 41:36Chuck Nice?

  If I didn't know any better, I would never think you two were related. It's amazing.

• 41:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Surprising, isn't it?

• 41:41Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. Gosh.

• 41:42Gary O'Reilly?

  See, it's great because there are not that many O'Reillys play professional football, soccer. But when I meet one, not only is she's good, but she's incredible. She, I mean, three Olympic golds, a World Cup. I mean, it's just, she has won wherever she's gone and she's, I mean, she's a credit to the game. You see what she's like as a person, that dynamic attitude in the locker room, on the field, championing inequality and is passionate. Thank you to the most incredibly talented Heather O'Reilly. Uh, thank you to Professor Andrew Zimbalist for his crunching of the numbers and the, as I said at the beginning, the wealth of experience that he's brought to our shows. Um, there are lawsuits flying right now in the spring of 2019 against the U.S. Soccer Federation.

• 42:27Chuck Nice?

  Yep.

• 42:28Gary O'Reilly?

  So if you want to know more, you're going to have to look in the news columns because it's going to be there. I'm guaranteeing you that. I hope you've enjoyed our gender show and the numbers and the passion of our guests. I've been Chuck Nice.

• 42:42Chuck Nice?

  And I've been Gary O'Reilly.

• 42:43Gary O'Reilly?

  And this has been

• 42:44Chuck Nice?

  Playing with Science.