Wrestling with Mental Health, with AJ Mendez

Neil deGrasse Tyson investigates mental health, wrestling, and more with AJ Mendez, aka AJ Lee, former WWE wrestler and author of “Crazy Is My Superpower: How I Triumphed by Breaking Bones, Breaking Hearts, and Breaking the Rules”. With co-host Chuck Nice and neuroscientist Dr. Heather Berlin, PhD. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/wrestling-with-mental-health-with-aj-mendez/ Photo Credit: © Cathy and David Photography, via theajmendez.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, and beaming out across all of space and time, this is StarTalk, where science and pop culture collide.

• 0:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. I'm your host, your personal astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm here with Chuck Nice, co-host.

• 0:26Chuck Nice?

  Yes, that's right.

• 0:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck Nice comic.

• 0:28Chuck Nice?

  That's right, sir.

• 0:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tweeting at ChuckNiceComic. Love you, man.

• 0:31Chuck Nice?

  Well, love you too, man.

• 0:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks for... You're my man. You're here when I need you.

• 0:34Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. It wouldn't work if it went any other way.

• 0:39Chuck Nice?

  You're always here when I don't need you, Chuck. I don't know what it is about you.

• 0:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get the hell out of here.

• 0:44Chuck Nice?

  Every time I look up, you're here and I don't need you.

• 0:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got a very good point. Today's show, we titled it Wrestling with Mental Health.

• 0:56Chuck Nice?

  Okay, so...

• 0:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so what we have here is we're featuring my interview with A.J. Mendez.

• 1:01Chuck Nice?

  A professional wrestler.

• 1:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, she's a professional wrestler.

• 1:05Chuck Nice?

  Right. And then like WWE, WWF?

• 1:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All I know is that begins with WW.

• 1:10Chuck Nice?

  Yes. I forget which one it's with.

• 1:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whatever the next one is, she's a professional, and what would one have to do with the other? She wrote a book called Crazy is My Superpower.

• 1:18Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 1:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And in it, you know, she struggles with her bipolar disorder.

• 1:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 1:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And tried to find how to take control of that, or possibly exploit the fact that it exists in some way that can serve her life.

• 1:33Chuck Nice?

  Excellent.

• 1:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I just thought this was a fascinating story and a fascinating case.

• 1:38Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 1:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And my notes say she's WWE.

• 1:40Chuck Nice?

  WWE.

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  E.

• 1:42Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 1:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Superstar under... Her stage name's A.J. Lee.

• 1:46Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 1:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A.J. Lee. So I sat down with her in my office to discuss.

• 1:50Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 1:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just who she is and what she's about.

• 1:53Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 1:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's check it out, the first clip.

• 1:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How did you navigate a path into the professional wrestling ring?

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Um, well, when I was growing up, I tried to find solace in...

• 2:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're always growing up.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  I know. When I was physically this big.

• 2:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Pretty much the size of a large Cabbage Patch doll.

• 2:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Um, I, um, tried to find solace and escape in the world of fantasy and fiction. And so that was comic books, that was anime, that was video games. But, um, I found, uh, such a, an escape in these worlds of fantasy where there were superheroes, um, that were strong in fighting, fighting crime. Um, and the good guy would win at the end of the day. And then I found professional wrestling and these people were flesh and blood superheroes in fandom.

• 2:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're bigger than life.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Yes. And so from a young age, I saw that, that it just spoke to me and I saw a place for me that wasn't represented.

• 2:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was a superhero you wanted to be?

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Uh, I loved, um, and in the book I kind of shout out, um, the Dark Phoenix saga and X-Men. I thought that was a time when like Chris Claremont was making women, uh, stronger and more of like the leaders. Um, and then to have this character that was a good guy, but then could, could change and was the bad guy, I related to that duality. Um, and so I was so obsessed with, with, uh, that version of June Gray.

• 3:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you want to be the good part or the bad part or both?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  I wanted to be, uh, somewhere in between. I love when those lines blur.

• 3:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, I, I don't know if that's a common among people in fandom because so many stories rely on, well, historically, so many stories relied on that's the bad guy, that's the good guy. And maybe the better stories are where that's more nuanced.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  I think so because where, where it's easy to know, okay, you have Superman and he's, he's the good guy, sometimes maybe they're too good. Maybe it's impossible to achieve that level of, of purity. Um, so I always kind of related to the people who maybe had a little bit of dark thoughts that were maybe, you know, a little tiny savage who was swinging and hitting people in school. Um, maybe I did that. Um, and, and to know that you could be redeemed, um, that you can also give in to those, those instincts, uh, that was fascinating to me.

• 4:16Chuck Nice?

  Very interesting.

• 4:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very, very, very, very good. So, we're gonna bring in Heather Berlin, our go-to person about brain in the next segment.

• 4:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 4:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But before then, have you ever seen a professional wrestling match? What do you think of them?

• 4:29Chuck Nice?

  I, you know, I'm not necessarily a fan. I'm not a detractor.

• 4:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not necessar- that sounds very euphemistic, Chuck.

• 4:37Chuck Nice?

  Well.

• 4:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not necessarily a fan.

• 4:39Chuck Nice?

  Well, the thing is this.

• 4:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't want them coming after your ass.

• 4:42Chuck Nice?

  Yes, exactly. And I don't want their fans coming after me either because they're quite, how shall I say, spirited. No, I'll put it like this. I, um, it's not for me, but I have spent so much time around people who enjoy wrestling that I know a lot about.

• 5:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, the most celebrated among them, the most, uh, the ones that I think have the most pageantry.

• 5:07Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are they any different from a superhero? Cause they're doing super, super things in the ring.

• 5:13Chuck Nice?

  True. I mean, some of them are superhero-like. Uh, I would say the difference is like what she was talking about with the nuances in the story arcs.

• 5:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Chuck Nice?

  Is that superheroes tend to be virtuous and good and righteous and forthright all the time.

• 5:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 5:29Chuck Nice?

  Um, whereas the wrestling.

• 5:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sometimes the bad guy wins.

• 5:33Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 5:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's the person who's portrayed as the bad guy.

• 5:35Chuck Nice?

  And sometimes the bad guy becomes the good guy and sometimes the good guy becomes the bad guy in their narrative, in their narrative arcs.

• 5:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 5:42Chuck Nice?

  You know? And so, for instance.

• 5:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, this would attract a geek subset, maybe?

• 5:46Chuck Nice?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 5:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cause superheroes is very, it's very centered in the geekiverse.

• 5:50Chuck Nice?

  Yes, and I mean, a lot of them are extremely charismatic. I will tell you that. One of the most famous wrestlers of all time from the WWE.

• 5:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Rock.

• 5:59Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 5:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Chuck Nice?

  You know? And his big thing.

• 6:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dwayne Johnson.

• 6:01Chuck Nice?

  Can you smell what The Rock is cooking? And people would go insane.

• 6:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh-oh, somebody has seen all of these matches.

• 6:10Chuck Nice?

  Well, no, I'm telling you, I have not seen any of these. These are the people that I hang out with.

• 6:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, that was like a flashback. That worried me, the way you did that. Your eyes were like totally.

• 6:17Chuck Nice?

  Well, maybe I've seen him. He's a very attractive man, that's all I can say. You know? Um, and then of course, like John Cena is another one who. So, these guys go on to become.

• 6:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they're good actors, yeah.

• 6:28Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, they become, you know, super, super popular actors.

• 6:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, part of their superhero strength is imparting pain on others.

• 6:35Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 6:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, there's an interesting question about pain in pro wrestling.

• 6:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I broached that topic with A.J. Lee. So, uh, let's find out this concept of pain in pro wrestling. Sweet.

• 6:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, one of the things about professional wrestling is the appearance of moves that would impart pain, but in fact, don't.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How much of the performance is the illusion of pain to an audience that doesn't know that it's not actually imparting pain?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  So it's a little bit of a team effort. You need the audience to come in with the, with this suspension of disbelief. They, they need to think that if I throw a person toward ropes, they're going to hit the ropes and come back at me. It is that, that they want to believe. Um, and then so much of it is trying to make it look like you are killing your opponent while simultaneously keeping them alive. You know, it's dangerous.

• 7:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not good for the sport if you kill everyone.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  It's really not. No one's gonna wanna work with you.

• 7:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  And so it's this combination of taking care of a person's body, um, and them, it's called selling, um, them really selling the moves for you.

• 7:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So is, there must be some move school where you come up with really creative, I mean, I've seen stuff, it's like, my gosh, how did that even work?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. Like you said, some people, they jump up, the legs wrap, you fall down, but bones don't break, even though it looks like they might, but they don't. And somehow all the body parts work.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  There are techniques that you learn, um, at the very beginning to, I, I can slip right now, uh, outside on the street and I'll fall in a way to protect my neck and my spine. Like it, it just becomes your instinct. Um, so there's different parts of the body you can kick that are safer, um, that make a really loud noise, so it sounds like it hurts and it hurts, but it doesn't really injure you. Um, and it's, it's really, there's tricks to the trade for sure.

• 8:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm. So is it fair to say that the people who go to see professional wrestling, they're going to be entertained and to watch highly physically fit people?

• 8:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mole one another, but in a way, but in an entertaining way.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 8:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's just what it is.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's like this kind of unspoken agreement with the fans. It's like, you know what you're getting.

• 9:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  You have to suspend your disbelief when you enter the doors. Um, and just kind of, you know, feel the, feel the moment. Um, but I would compare it to, um, like a Cirque du Soleil mixed with Saturday Night Live. There's improv, so much of it is, is planned and you know the finish. But sometimes maybe the crowd doesn't like what you're doing. You have to, you have to change it on the fly. Um, and you have to figure out a way to speak to your opponent without anyone seeing when you're surrounded, uh, at every angle.

• 9:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Um, so that's an art form in that way and it's a dance. Um, and, and, and it's a little bit of everything, of every entertainment industry.

• 9:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So how do you prevent yourself from getting injured? And when you do get injured, did you have any regimen to come back from it? How, how, how did that all come together?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  I think what made it more difficult for me is, um, being bipolar and being on certain medications. It's, when you get injuries, some people, you know, were like, okay, I'll take a painkiller. Like, I couldn't do that. I didn't trust myself doing that. I didn't think that was safe. So I had to kind of power through all that stuff.

• 10:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. Yeah. So, interesting fact, when you think of injury, you think of what could break a bone. Right. Um, so, but generally people don't think about acceleration rather than speed. Okay. All right. So, they say speed kills. Yeah. That's false. Okay. Acceleration kills. Acceleration kills. And negative acceleration, which we have a word for it, deceleration. Right. Is the most common thing that will kill you in anything. Okay. So, that's why high jumpers. When they, or, that's why pole vaulters.

• 10:46Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When they land on the other side, they don't land on cement.

• 10:49Chuck Nice?

  Right, yes, exactly.

• 10:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because if they land on cement.

• 10:53Chuck Nice?

  Well, they don't, they don't anymore.

• 10:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In our day.

• 10:56Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Chuck Nice?

  I remember when it was a man's sport, you know.

• 11:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, you fall and they reach their top speed and if you hit the cement, you go from that top speed to zero in a fraction of a second.

• 11:09Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That breaks bones.

• 11:10Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 11:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you want to do is spread out the time over which you slow down. And arithmetically, acceleration is the change in your speed divided by the time. So if the time gets large, your acceleration becomes less. So, they land on pillows. So you hit the top of the pillow.

• 11:28Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then they stop their motion by the time they squish to the bottom of the pillow.

• 11:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you spread that out. That's where they can pop up and take another pole vault.

• 11:37Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 11:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  After, and not just be scooped off the ground. So, as is the truth.

• 11:42Chuck Nice?

  Those were the early pole vaulting matches, where they just shoveled you up.

• 11:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This isn't caveman time.

• 11:48Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly.

• 11:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh, Chog can't.

• 11:54Chuck Nice?

  Chog has won the gold medal, but he can only do it once.

• 12:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so, if you're not, if you don't want to get injured, whatever it is you're doing while you're moving, make sure that you come to a stop over the longest amount of time you can.

• 12:10Chuck Nice?

  Possible.

• 12:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay?

• 12:11Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If the ropes that the wrestlers get thrown into were made of steel, then they could, they probably end up ripping the vertebrae on their back.

• 12:20Chuck Nice?

  Oh, god.

• 12:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay?

• 12:22Chuck Nice?

  Oh, now you just made me love wrestling.

• 12:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, but they're made of these sort of, these elastic. So I throw you into the rope.

• 12:28Chuck Nice?

  Like a bungee.

• 12:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like a bungee cord, you, it takes you a while to come to a stop.

• 12:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that energy is preserved in the rope and you just bounce back.

• 12:35Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, and, and if you've ever played on a wrestling mat.

• 12:39Chuck Nice?

  Never.

• 12:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In a professional mat, it's very springy.

• 12:41Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 12:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're not thinking of that because you're paying attention to the wrestlers.

• 12:44Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But if you look at when they get thrown down, it actually has give to it, spring give to it.

• 12:49Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that you don't, you know, break your spleen getting slammed onto the mat.

• 12:53Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 12:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You, it takes you a few inches to go in and then come back at, and then that.

• 12:58Chuck Nice?

  Well, you hear it when you, when they hit it, it's ba-ba-ba-ba. Like you hear that kind of.

• 13:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You really are a fan, you've been to these matches.

• 13:05Chuck Nice?

  No, no.

• 13:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The way you, oh, oh, yeah, no, I, I, I.

• 13:07Chuck Nice?

  I'm telling you, I'm not.

• 13:10Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 13:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I can stop any time. You're reciting to me what the mat sounds like after they get thrown onto it.

• 13:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's kinda what it's sounding like.

• 13:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's all about, and so if you're in a car accident.

• 13:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Your, your chances of survival are much greater if the car takes a long time to come to a stop.

• 13:26Chuck Nice?

  That's why airbags deflate when you hit them.

• 13:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, well, it's why you have airbags, so you hit the bag of air instead of the dashboard.

• 13:34Chuck Nice?

  True, cuz the bag, the air actually deflates, right?

• 13:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It will, it will cushion you to, to have more time for you to come to a stop.

• 13:41Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When Dale Earnhardt died.

• 13:43Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 13:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  His car accident was, he was going 200 miles an hour and then zero.

• 13:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In a fraction of a second, I said, he's not surviving that.

• 13:49Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  People didn't see a twisted wreck, they didn't see flames, they didn't see tires rolling down.

• 13:55Chuck Nice?

  That's the good stuff.

• 13:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The usual spectacular crashes.

• 13:58Chuck Nice?

  That's when you know the driver's okay.

• 13:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's, that's, is more likely to be okay cuz it took a long time for that car to come to a stop.

• 14:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that's why they have these videos, and they walked.

• 14:07Chuck Nice?

  Right, they get out every time and wave to the crowd.

• 14:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the, and they walked part is, well, here is, it's because, oh my gosh, look what happened to the car.

• 14:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the car, you know, breaks into pieces over 100 yards and the guy gets out and walks. Because it took that long to come to a stop. So, so it really should be called, Of Course They Walked.

• 14:22Chuck Nice?

  Of Course They Walked.

• 14:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you know physics, Physics 101, Of Course They Walked.

• 14:26Chuck Nice?

  Let's ruin everything.

• 14:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Obstructed!

• 14:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, getting back to AJ's bipolar disorder.

• 14:33Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Um, she wanted to sort of reclaim the word crazy.

• 14:36Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 14:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In, in her own way, so let's find out what's behind that, check it out.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  It was a very conscious decision to use a word that might be divisive, that it might make people, uh, I might rub people the wrong way and I've always kind of enjoyed that. Um, and the point in doing that is when you have these words that make people go, huh, you've give the word, letters, power over you. Um, and so for me, every, I've been labeled so many things, I've been, I've been called, you know, bitchy, I've been called loud, I've been called impulsive, um, I've been called poor, ugly, freak, rebel, crazy.

• 15:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't call you any of those. Doesn't mean I'm not thinking them.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  You're nice.

• 15:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, I just.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  You're nice on the outside.

• 15:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I try to avoid labels because they're excuses for not thinking more deeply about the nuances of who a person actually is.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Definitely, and these were things that were used against me. They were sharpened and used as a weapon against me. And when you own it, and when you say, "Oh, being crazy has given me power and it's given me talent that I wouldn't have if I wasn't, and being short and looking different than the other girls made me successful, it was the reason for my success," I own it now, and I control it. I have the power. And I think that's the first step in de-stigmatizing mental illness, is there shouldn't be hush words. We should be able to talk about it, joke about it, as I do. I take nothing so seriously where I can't make fun of myself. And that's kind of the first step in the conversation starting.

• 16:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go. So Chuck, when we come back, I'm gonna bring in Heather Berlin. Yes. To get to the bottom of this. So we'll be right back.

• 16:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk. We're featuring my interview with A.J. Mendez, professional wrestler who suffers from bipolar disorder, but turned that into her superpower, and wrote a book, "Crazy is My Superpower." Chuck and I have been talking about her in the wrestling ring, but to take this any step further, we need some real brain expertise here. So we bring in Heather, Heather Berlin.

• 17:00Heather Berlin?

  Hey!

• 17:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No stranger to StarTalk, not only on the flagship, but also you've hosted our StarTalk All-Stars.

• 17:09Heather Berlin?

  Yes.

• 17:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So thank you for doing that.

• 17:10Heather Berlin?

  Happy to be here.

• 17:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wonderful to have you. And of course, so we're first airing this in Mental Health Awareness Month.

• 17:16Heather Berlin?

  All right.

• 17:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The month of May.

• 17:17Heather Berlin?

  We get a whole month.

• 17:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A whole month. Wow. So tell us, what is bipolar disorder? Because I don't really know.

• 17:25Heather Berlin?

  Ah, okay.

• 17:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Many people don't really know.

• 17:27Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, so bipolar, it's not just one thing, there are actually different types, and we can put it in different categories of bipolar disorder. So basically, in general, it involves having both depressive episodes and then manic episodes.

• 17:45Heather Berlin?

  But

• 17:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is manic the opposite of depression?

• 17:47Heather Berlin?

  Yes, yes. Manic is like, you know, being basically high on coke. Yeah. Is kind of the Right. Not that I would know.

• 17:58Heather Berlin?

  But Not that there's anything wrong with that. Well, yes, exactly. Um, but no, when people are in manic, actually, you know, they often enjoy the manic episodes. Um, they have racing thoughts, they have a lot of energy, they don't really need a lot of sleep, they feel very creative, um, but they can also be impulsive, um, and go on shopping sprees and things. But it, it, it actually, subjectively, feels really good to be in these states. Sounds a lot like meth, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And then, but, but, but not everybody has, there, there's differences in terms of the severity of the manic episodes. So some people have what we call hypomania, which is kind of, um, a mild, uh, episode of mania.

• 18:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hypo as the opposite of hyper?

• 18:41Heather Berlin?

  Yes, yeah. But they're still manic, but it's just a more mild manic episode. Right. And so if you have both a major depressive episode and then you have a hypomania, you have, um, what's called bipolar two disorder. But if you

• 18:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Type two?

• 18:58Heather Berlin?

  Type two. Oh, cool. Bipolar type two. Oh, it's like a mental version of diabetes.

• 19:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you, Chuck, for that deep insight, the deep physiological insight.

• 19:10Heather Berlin?

  I should have went to medical school.

• 19:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Actually, in astrophysics, we have type one and type two supernovae.

• 19:15Heather Berlin?

  Supernovae?

• 19:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, they have two different origins.

• 19:18Heather Berlin?

  Right. So type one is basically when you have a major, um, you have a manic episode, and you don't necessarily need a depressive episode. Nor, usually you'll eventually get one, but just having one major manic episode, you'll get diagnosed with bipolar type one. And then usually eventually you'll have some sort of depressive episode down the road.

• 19:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What causes it? Why do some people have it and others not?

• 19:38Heather Berlin?

  That's a really big question.

• 19:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That usually means you don't know the answer.

• 19:41Heather Berlin?

  Well, we have a couple of answers. I mean

• 19:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You have some hypotheses.

• 19:45Heather Berlin?

  We have some hypotheses. Um, we know that at least 85% of variants, it's, it's related to genetics. So it, there's a huge genetic component to it. Um, we know there are general patterns of brain activation that we see in people with bipolar disorder that have to do with Regulating emotion, so parts of the brain, the ventral medial prefrontal cortex, which regulates the amygdala and emotional parts of the brain, doesn't work as well.

• 20:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, how's your amygdala?

• 20:12Chuck Nice?

  Oh, it's in terrible shape. I can tell you that right now.

• 20:18Heather Berlin?

  And their amygdala seems to be like, super active, very active. But it's not as active in the prefrontal cortex, so they don't, they can't modulate those strong emotions as well.

• 20:27Chuck Nice?

  And so your amygdala, is that where your fight or flight comes from? Is that your kind of lizard brain?

• 20:33Heather Berlin?

  Exactly, yeah, yeah, that's your like primal, yeah.

• 20:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you need the higher order parts of the brain to contain that.

• 20:40Heather Berlin?

  Exactly.

• 20:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, if you get angry with someone, you just punch them without actually regulating this primal behavior.

• 20:45Heather Berlin?

  Right, because normally you have that urge, okay, I'm gonna, I feel like punching you, for example, Chuck, I don't know. And then, and then another part of my brain would say, wait, you know what? That might not be the best idea.

• 20:55Chuck Nice?

  And then that part of your brain says, punch him harder.

• 20:57Heather Berlin?

  Right, exactly. So it's the same thing with, you know, these urges, but also with emotions. So you might have a feeling of extreme sadness, or extreme happiness. And normally our brain kind of modulates it, because we want homeostasis. We want to be kind of in our kind of comfort zone. But when there's dysregulation there, then you have these high highs and these low lows.

• 21:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what's the, what's the treatment?

• 21:18Heather Berlin?

  So we, you know, treatment has not really evolved that much in the last 50 years, still.

• 21:23Chuck Nice?

  Electroshock therapy, huh?

• 21:25Heather Berlin?

  The first line treatment is still basically lithium, which is this basic element in the periodic table.

• 21:31Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, don't ever do that, people. Just letting you know.

• 21:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, thank you Chuck for your medical advice here.

• 21:36Chuck Nice?

  Just gonna let you know, man, don't ever do that lithium.

• 21:39Heather Berlin?

  Lithium salt.

• 21:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's actually cosmological lithium, not very much of it in the universe.

• 21:42Heather Berlin?

  Oh, interesting.

• 21:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very little of it, but it's there. The Big Bang made some lithium, I'm just saying.

• 21:47Chuck Nice?

  Was the Big Bang depressed?

• 21:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Big Bang, you know, Big Bang has issues.

• 21:52Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 21:52Heather Berlin?

  Self-medicating.

• 21:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Self-medicating.

• 21:55Heather Berlin?

  He doesn't understand its origin.

• 22:00Heather Berlin?

  Who am I? Why am I here?

• 22:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Big Bang has existential ends. The Big Bang has it. There's no hope for any of us.

• 22:08Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna suggest that you take some cosmological lithium.

• 22:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Actually, it probably is. I don't think we make it otherwise. You get it from nature.

• 22:15Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, it's from nature.

• 22:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so it's Big Bang lithium.

• 22:17Chuck Nice?

  That's it.

• 22:18Heather Berlin?

  Exactly. And so that's the first line treatment. Then we have other variations. We have anticonvulsant drugs, which are also considered to be mood stabilizers. Now, antidepressants, interestingly, you would never give them alone to treat bipolar disorder because it actually can throw you into a manic phase.

• 22:34Chuck Nice?

  Yes, so it's just like, I'm gonna take my antidepressants, like, alright, this is awesome. Everything is awesome. Everything is awesome.

• 22:41Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, exactly. And you don't sleep for five days. Exactly.

• 22:44Chuck Nice?

  I'm totally fine. I don't know what your problem is. I'm doing great.

• 22:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, we got a clip of AJ talking about treatment.

• 22:49Heather Berlin?

  Oh, great.

• 22:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's see where she takes us on that.

• 22:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How early in your life were you self-aware that you had bipolar disorder? Because you bring it out in this book. I think for many people, it's their first time knowing this about you. Is that correct?

• 23:04Speaker 02

  It is. I can't remember a time when I didn't feel like there was something a little off with me. But I was only officially diagnosed when I was nineteen, twenty, so it took me a while. But once I got diagnosed, everything kind of made sense.

• 23:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And whatever

• 23:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  stress factor the bipolar disorder had on you, you were nonetheless still creative and productive as a student, correct? So, so when you're diagnosed at nineteen, is there medication to tamp it down? Or how does that work?

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 23:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And forgive my ignorance of it, because I don't know.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  You know, a lot of people get intimidated about the long road to recovery. And sometimes people get misdiagnosed as just being depressed. And antidepressants are really dangerous if you're bipolar. But when you find the right diagnosis, it's a bit of a struggle to get your perfect formula for treatment. But if you just fight through that...

• 24:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's balancing the chemistry of you. Even relative to someone else that could have the same diagnosis.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Yes, two people are not gonna have the same treatment. They're not gonna have the same medication. Or just how they treat themselves in life, whether it's meditation, or exercise, or therapy. You have to find the right cocktail for you. And I found that, luckily, early enough to gain complete control over my life.

• 24:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I like the fact that you've included exercise and meditation as part of what is the cocktail.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cocktail's not just the chemistry that you ingest, it's the rest of how you manage your life.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  I think so, and I think not only is there, you know, a science behind it of your, you know, the serotonin and the endorphins that it's releasing when you get that high, but there is something about feeling capable and feeling strong and, okay, I can lift this weight, or I did a four mile run, and just feeling capable is something that will bring you out of any funk that you're in.

• 25:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Heather, I'm curious, in modern day, what is, I probably can't answer this in a general way, but then be specific if you need to, what is the mixture of drugs versus couch therapy?

• 25:26Heather Berlin?

  Right.

• 25:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In your universe? And when do you say, "We can fix this, just lay down on a couch and talk about your problems"?

• 25:34Heather Berlin?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And when do you say, "I got a pill, call me in the morning"?

• 25:37Heather Berlin?

  Right. So, I mean, the thing that's important to remember is that every thought you have is related to some underlying brain, physical brain process. So, once thoughts become to a place where they're so abnormal, or in a sense, so hard to control, whether they're negative thoughts or even highly positive thoughts, then you really need to look at the underlying neurochemistry and see, is there a neurochemical imbalance that's causing the imbalance of these thoughts or emotions? And if there is, it's usually, one answer is not enough. We find that the best effects is, there's a synergistic effect when you treat with a medication to a brain that needs it, and together with talk therapy or psychological therapy.

• 26:20Heather Berlin?

  So it's healing the thoughts in the brain at the same time, you'll get a better effect than either on its own. That being said, though, if there's somebody who might have some sort of psychological problems, but they're not related to a neurochemical imbalance, then taking the drugs can actually do more harm than good.

• 26:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Absolutely. So is it possible?

• 26:39Chuck Nice?

  That an emotional problem can lead to a neurochemical problem. So you start off with a trauma or a problem. And that problem actually changes your brain to alters it so that you actually have a neurochemical.

• 26:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's asking about a friend of his.

• 26:55Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 26:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A friend of trauma.

• 27:01Chuck Nice?

  No, I'm just, I'm trying to save some money, that's all I'm doing. Let me ask Heather, maybe I can cancel my appointment this week.

• 27:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This afternoon.

• 27:09Heather Berlin?

  Well, I might have to charge for this then. It's always this sort of, it's a dance between our brain is constantly getting information and interacting with its environment. And it's developing and changing because of the environment. I mean, that's what memory is. Memory is an actual physical change in the brain. So we do know that especially in the developing brain, which is most vulnerable. If you're exposed to a stressor and especially to repeated stressors. It actually releases cortisol and it can affect things like the development of the hippocampus, for example. So people who have early life stressors.

• 27:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's why they talk about how impactful childhood trauma can be, even late into adulthood.

• 27:44Heather Berlin?

  Yes, it's, I mean, trauma at any stage is, can be impactful, but it's even more so in childhood. Cause the brain is still developing and is much more vulnerable. And so we know that in older, in, when we look at adult brains, people who have certain psychiatric illnesses have smaller hippocampi, have smaller amygdali. And then the question becomes, is it because they were exposed to early life stressors? Or is it because they might have a genetic predisposition? They were born that way and they don't have this neuroprotective factor? Like maybe having a larger hippocampus and amygdala protects you from developing psychiatric illness when you're under stress. So we just, we don't know what came first, the chicken or the egg. But yes, environmental experiences can certainly affect the brain.

• 28:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck was a big man on his hippocampus.

• 28:25Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god.

• 28:32Heather Berlin?

  That's a scientist.

• 28:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For the next clip.

• 28:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had to, I asked AJ.

• 28:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck.

• 28:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, for the next clip, I asked AJ, is there any part of her personality that she either credits or blames on her bipolar disorder? Check it out.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  For me, it is the source of my powers, if you will.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  I find that I believe in myself possibly a little too much sometimes.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  You know, I was... I don't think a lot of people thought you could go from homeless to being a champion on television. Or that you can go from being underweight and sickly to being in wrestling, into an athletic career. There's a lot of people that didn't think a pro wrestler was smart enough to write a book by herself.

• 29:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not to put words in your mouth, but you would say that being bipolar, in a way, defined who you came to be.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  It definitely did.

• 29:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In childhood and as an adult.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yes, as a kid, whether I realized it or not, but looking back, I know, as far as I can remember, I have been bipolar, we just didn't diagnose it. But it made me braver, it made me tougher. It made me a little brazen, and maybe that rubbed people the wrong way, but at least I was always honest.

• 29:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Rubbed them an honest way.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, I'm the kind of person, I can't really keep my mouth shut if I see there's some sort of injustice in the world. Even if I have to stand up alone, I'm gonna stand up.

• 30:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then you could just say, "Otherwise, I'll kick your ass."

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  It's for real.

• 30:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, why not?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  And so, and being like extra empathetic. Because if you have this large range of emotions, I can feel other people's pain, maybe a little too deeply, but at least I understand them. And so, it is the source of... I think my best qualities have come from being bipolar. And I'm afraid to think of who I would be without it.

• 30:40Chuck Nice?

  See, I'm gonna push back on that just a little bit.

• 30:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let's find out something from Heather. Heather.

• 30:46Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 30:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Clearly, severe mental illness is contraindicated in evolution, we might think. We might think. That if you can't really function, or you're not connected to reality, that would have been selected out, evolutionarily, but apparently it hasn't. Is there any insight in your profession about that?

• 31:04Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, well, a number of the psychiatric illnesses don't develop until you-

• 31:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  After you make babies.

• 31:09Heather Berlin?

  Exactly.

• 31:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, okay, so there it is.

• 31:10Chuck Nice?

  Well, that makes perfect sense.

• 31:12Heather Berlin?

  So it might have an early advantage, in some sense. And then, you know, afterwards, but now we're surviving longer and we're... But, you know, in general, it usually is more harm than good. And, you know, it's hard to say, let's say, for example, what she would be like. She might still have all those positive traits without the disorder.

• 31:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, suppose, wait, wait, wait.

• 31:34Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 31:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But wait, but, but wait. Not to be devil's advocate, but suppose you found a way to snip, nip-tuck in the brain so she never had bipolar disorder.

• 31:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then, according to her, and I believe her, she would have never become the person who she is.

• 31:54Chuck Nice?

  But that is because she is ascribing her achievements to the bipolarism.

• 31:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is my point. So who are you, as a mental health professional, to say who should or should not have one illness or another, another, if the fact of overcoming the illness is what shapes who you become in life?

• 32:11Chuck Nice?

  But see, here's the problem.

• 32:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did I ask you this question?

• 32:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You have an M.D. after your name?

• 32:19Chuck Nice?

  Uh, no, just P.H. No D, just P.H.

• 32:24Chuck Nice?

  I'm P.H. balanced. I don't have a PhD. I'm P.H. balanced.

• 32:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The P.H. seven.

• 32:29Chuck Nice?

  No, go ahead, Heather.

• 32:30Heather Berlin?

  Or I'm balanced. No, so, um-

• 32:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  P.H. balanced.

• 32:35Chuck Nice?

  Have a PhD, not a PhD.

• 32:40Heather Berlin?

  Okay, so the amount of suffering, subjective suffering, that the illness causes the patient is one of the measures that we use in terms of the diagnosis. So because most of it is subjective, some of it is out behavioral, you know, someone's acting out impulsively and then it's affecting other people. But say something like depression, we have to ask the person, how do you feel? How much subjective suffering is this causing you? And if a person says, you know what, I'm perfectly fine with my mental illness, this is, you know, I think it brings me, you know, whatever, my creativity, you know, that's their choice. So I'm not saying we need to eradicate all mental illness, but I think it would help to eradicate human suffering. And the majority of the time, it causes more suffering than it does good.

• 33:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really good answer there.

• 33:22Heather Berlin?

  Yeah. Thanks. Oh, thanks.

• 33:24Chuck Nice?

  You're like, yeah.

• 33:25Heather Berlin?

  I wasn't saying yeah to that.

• 33:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it was a good answer. It wasn't it?

• 33:29Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, I was thinking.

• 33:31Chuck Nice?

  I just think that.

• 33:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, that's very cogent. Thank you. That's very insightful. Thank you.

• 33:35Chuck Nice?

  I think all human beings have a tendency to attribute their success to things that otherwise they would not if they didn't have that success.

• 33:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Something quote abnormal.

• 33:46Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 33:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Some abnormality.

• 33:47Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. So for instance, you know, okay, let's just take, I was bullied as a kid, right? But, you know, there's a part of me that feels like, you know, the fact that I never backed down from bullies and the fact that I was able to handle it makes me a stronger person and therefore I am who I am today because I was bullied, right? And then my wife will say, no, could you just imagine yourself if you were loved and nurtured only? You understand? So like I'm saying.

• 34:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, I see. So you after the fact.

• 34:17Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 34:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Describe why, what the case, when it might have been that way anyway.

• 34:20Chuck Nice?

  It might have been that way anyway, or you might have been better.

• 34:22Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Chuck Nice?

  You might have been better.

• 34:24Heather Berlin?

  Exactly.

• 34:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, how about Van Gogh and Beethoven?

• 34:26Heather Berlin?

  Oh, okay.

• 34:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Rumors that they were both bipolar.

• 34:27Chuck Nice?

  Ooh.

• 34:28Heather Berlin?

  Okay, so there's this, there's this sort of myth because people take these very sort of prominent case individuals and say, look, that person was super creative and they also had some sort of mental illness. Therefore, those two things must go together. But the truth is, when you look at the. Epidemiology and the statistics, it's just not true. It just happens to be because there's a certain proportion of the population that develops these types of mental illness.

• 34:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the Venn diagram.

• 34:53Heather Berlin?

  Exactly.

• 34:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of artists and people with mental illness.

• 34:55Heather Berlin?

  There's gonna be some.

• 34:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Some of them are gonna be both.

• 34:57Heather Berlin?

  Exactly, and there's also some highly creative people who don't have mental illness.

• 35:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 35:01Heather Berlin?

  So it doesn't necessitate it. If anything, they were good artists despite it.

• 35:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  MC Escher, for example.

• 35:05Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He grew up in a wealthy family. Right. Highly productive. Had it all. Had it all, loved everything. Right. Nobody's making a movie about his midnight torment. Right.

• 35:15Heather Berlin?

  Right.

• 35:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he gave us all those great drawings, and he was an awesome rapper. Yes. MC Escher, of course.

• 35:22Heather Berlin?

  Oh, I get it.

• 35:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Heather, I thought you were perfect in that.

• 35:27Heather Berlin?

  I know, I know, I know. Well, you say rapper, and it goes, I go straight to my husband, I'm like, what, rapper? Huh? And then I get all distracted.

• 35:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll tell you my rap name. What? MC Squared.

• 35:36Heather Berlin?

  Oh, my God.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  Twice in the South Show.

• 35:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We gotta take a break. When we come back, more of my interview, the StarTalk interview with AJ Mendez, professional wrestler, and we're Crazy Is Your Superpower, thanks to our co-host.

• 36:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back for my final segment of StarTalk, featuring my interview with AJ Mendez, professional wrestler, author of Crazy Is My Superpower. And I've got Heather Berlin here to help us out, because we're talking about neurological issues. Yes. And I have Chuck here. So for my next clip, she describes just what she had to do in her life to deal with this affliction. Let's check it out.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  There's definitely evidence that the Hispanic community reports their mental illness less and they get less treatment. There is this feeling of machismo and this tough, tough-as-nails sort of mandate amongst our families. And so that was one thing against me. Being a tiny woman was another thing that was against me. And I think there's something about being young and naive and kind of just hopeful that you can really do anything in the world and not knowing the realities of the world, that somehow it didn't stop me. It just made me want to kind of fight for it harder.

• 37:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If more people felt that way, think about how transformed the world would be.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  I think we get jaded and I think-

• 37:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You just give up.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you give up, especially when it gets hard, when there's the first road block.

• 37:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, you measure the forces and then you look at your fuel supply and you say, "I don't have enough. I'll just go the path of least resistance."

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 37:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, but the world is shaped by those who take the path of most resistance.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 37:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Such as yourself.

• 37:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Damn, did I say that?

• 37:52Heather Berlin?

  That was a good one!

• 37:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, coming from a Hispanic family, as she said, it's under-reported mental illness. Could you comment on just what the challenges are for any person to be candid or honest about their mental illness, just as a person, separate from what might be cultural?

• 38:10Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, there's a lot of stigma and there's definitely cultural-

• 38:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Still.

• 38:13Heather Berlin?

  Still.

• 38:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Heather Berlin?

  Cultural variation. It's gotten much better. I mean, much better. It used to be, and everyone talks about, you know, "Oh, I go to my therapist."

• 38:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, that used to be, you never used to hear that.

• 38:22Heather Berlin?

  Right.

• 38:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody's talking about it.

• 38:24Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, it's become, so it's in this sort of public zeitgeist and it's accepted. However, in cultures where, you know, there's still this kind of, you know, you're supposed to, "Don't cry," and, you know-

• 38:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Shut up!

• 38:35Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, and war veterans, I mean, they're afraid to admit to their PTSD because, you know, they don't want to lose their jobs and they don't want to, you know, and so it's, it's a process. It's getting better.

• 38:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  PTSD post-traumatic-

• 38:48Heather Berlin?

  Oh, post-traumatic stress disorder.

• 38:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or disorder.

• 38:51Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, yeah, but, but there are people who are breaking the stereotypes and, and they're sort of role models that are like these tough, big macho men are like, "Look, I have this mental illness and I'm getting treated for it and that's okay."

• 39:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There are ads in the subway now with- Who's our big swimmer guy?

• 39:07Chuck Nice?

  Michael Phelps.

• 39:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Michael Phelps.

• 39:09Heather Berlin?

  Right.

• 39:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, you don't take the subway, apparently, Heather?

• 39:11Heather Berlin?

  Oh.

• 39:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, the real people take the subway. There he is, saying, "Therapy has helped me, it can help you." And he's just out there with it.

• 39:22Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 39:22Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he's a famous guy.

• 39:24Heather Berlin?

  And there are other famous people. The actress in La La Land, her name is Emma Stone.

• 39:29Chuck Nice?

  Emma Stone.

• 39:30Heather Berlin?

  She came out and talked about her childhood severe anxiety and OCD. And did a whole obsessive compulsive disorder. And so, you know, when you get people like this who are willing to come forward and speak up, it makes it better for everybody else and easier to come out. And, yeah.

• 39:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That seems to be true for everything. So, for example, the number of people who went in for colon cancer screening after Katie Couric's husband died.

• 39:56Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 39:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That effect on the health of the country and even the world was greater than any public service announcement that doctors could possibly make.

• 40:07Chuck Nice?

  Yes. I owe my healthy colon to Katie, that's for sure.

• 40:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really? Okay.

• 40:12Heather Berlin?

  So, it's in your hands, celebrities.

• 40:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 40:14Heather Berlin?

  Power is in your hands.

• 40:16Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God, I thought you meant my colon.

• 40:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, this whole celebrity thing, A.J. is sort of part of that.

• 40:26Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. And again, her stage name is A.J. Lee. So, let's find out what she's been doing to try to get the word out. Let's check it out. So, other than your book, how, do you have other ways to sensitize people to mental health? By the way, just to be clear, when I was growing up, nobody talked about mental health.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just, you did not go there.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  And that's what, in my family, you didn't talk about it. It wasn't real. And that's why it took so long to start helping myself. So, my goal is to get people to start helping themselves a little bit earlier. I believe most people, it takes 10 years between onset of symptoms to getting any sort of treatment, which is terrifying, what can happen in those 10 years.

• 41:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not that it should take 10 years, just in practice.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  People generally, it takes them that long, they're denying it. Because they're afraid to acknowledge it, they're afraid of what it means if they have something wrong with them that needs treatment.

• 41:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Meanwhile, if you've got some other physical ailment, you go immediately.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you got a cut, you put a Band-Aid on it. If you're sick, you take cold medicine. If you break a bone, you go to the hospital. But when you can't see mental illness, people don't really pay attention. And so what we're trying to do is start people young. The JED Foundation is an organization that focuses on youth and kids in high school or grade school that have all these pressures from a million different angles and are just trying to figure out who they are. And some of them, on top of that, are trying to figure out the changes in their brain chemistry and trying to understand that. So they are really...

• 42:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's amazing we survive middle school and high school at all.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Really? And then imagine feeling a little bit weaker or a little bit sadder. And so they are a really great resource if you want to see if what you have is ordinary or if it is, maybe requires a little bit more treatment or a little bit more of an effort. So if you want to learn about symptoms and about coping mechanisms, I would suggest people go to jedfoundation.org/help.

• 42:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  J E.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  J E D foundation.org/help. And that's a really good jumping off point for, I would say, middle schoolers and high school kids.

• 42:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You make a great point, because let's say you're struggling or you're sad, you don't know enough to know whether it's a clinical chemical problem or whether you just need to talk to a friend. Or both.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And they have resources where you can see, you can kind of compare what you're going through. Does it last longer than two weeks? Is your appetite changing? Is your sleep pattern changing? Little things. And whether it's happening in you or maybe your best friend is going through it, they have some guidelines that can help you out just getting started. And what I, I'm also working with NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. And right now, we have a campaign that's called, that is to fight stigma. If people can go to nami.org/stigmafree, they can take the pledge to stop shaming mental illness and start talking about it.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  And the second it just becomes conversational and it's something that we're not so scared of. That really is the first step at any age to treatment and healing.

• 43:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Heather, you straddle two worlds, as I see it. You're, you think a lot about mental health that might be cured by conversation or insights into what's driving people's thoughts, but you also have looked inside people's brains. What's the future of treatment of mental illness? When will the day come where there are no mental asylums?

• 44:12Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, that's a big question. You know, where we're going.

• 44:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And is the future in, once you know, I'm making this up, but imagine the day where you've mapped every single neuron.

• 44:21Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 44:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you say, there's the criminal neuron, or there's this neuron, and let's nip, snip, skip, redirect.

• 44:27Heather Berlin?

  Right.

• 44:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And now this psychopathic behavior is over.

• 44:31Heather Berlin?

  If only it were so easy, because even if we map the entire brain, the complexity of what entails just having a simple thought, much less a mental disorder, we might not be able to crack that code. However, I do think we are getting closer in another direction is looking at the human genome and mapping that on to cognitive function and to certain types of disorders. Now, I do think that we will be able at some point to, if using things like CRISPR, modify the genome and perhaps prevent some of these things before they even go on to develop.

• 45:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is like home kit to gene splice.

• 45:06Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  CRISPR.

• 45:07Heather Berlin?

  I mean, it's gonna be, you know, at that sort of designer baby point, but there's a lot of obviously ethical issues with that, and you don't know what, at that level, you don't know what you're gonna be sacrificing because of that. I think what's closer in terms of our lifetime is things like neural prosthetics, where we're putting neural implants to stimulate parts of the brain to treat psychiatric illness. And also, really, another non-invasive novel treatment are the use of psychedelic drugs.

• 45:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Heather Berlin?

  Treats these illnesses. So we just, just got FDA approval for.

• 45:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For LSD, really?

• 45:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really? But FDA's come a long way.

• 45:43Chuck Nice?

  No, ketamine, right?

• 45:43Heather Berlin?

  Ketamine, yeah.

• 45:44Chuck Nice?

  Which is K.

• 45:45Heather Berlin?

  Yeah, special K. We have intranasal.

• 45:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know any.

• 45:47Heather Berlin?

  Oh, okay.

• 45:48Chuck Nice?

  So you see now, see you weren't.

• 45:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's how wholesome I am.

• 45:50Chuck Nice?

  You weren't hanging in the clubs.

• 45:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I was not.

• 45:52Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, see, you were too busy studying.

• 45:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was getting my physics, the astrophysics PhD.

• 45:57Chuck Nice?

  Right, well, K, well, see, when you, when you're PH balanced instead of PhD.

• 46:03Heather Berlin?

  You got a lot of special K.

• 46:04Chuck Nice?

  You know that special K.

• 46:07Heather Berlin?

  So basically, it's an anesthetic. It's a dissociative anesthetic that was used actually in children to put them out under anesthesia. But in small doses, you get these dissociative effects. It was a club drug. So I was there in the early trials of this because it's looking at depression, major depression, not just involving serotonin, but also the glutamatergic system in the brain, another neurotransmitter system in the brain. And miraculously, people with severe depression who are suicidal, who have tried every other drug, antidepressant, this has intravenous ketamine has amazing effects. I mean, and I see it in patients, like anecdotally, and then we know it from the research. So they just earlier this year approved intranasal spray of the,

• 46:50Heather Berlin?

  sort of a cousin of ketamine, an isomer, that will treat depression. And we are looking at things like psilocybin, now still in experimental stages, and basically the ingredient in mushrooms.

• 47:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's all chemical?

• 47:01Heather Berlin?

  It's chemical.

• 47:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're reminding us we're a sack of chemistry.

• 47:04Heather Berlin?

  We are.

• 47:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you're jumping in with your own set of chemicals.

• 47:07Heather Berlin?

  Right, we just saw.

• 47:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So my best friends are made of chemicals.

• 47:09Heather Berlin?

  Right, yeah. I think these are temporary fixes, they're not cures, until we really understand how the brain works and all the others.

• 47:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but for every successful chemical, that's evidence of a deeper understanding of what's actually happening chemically in your brain.

• 47:24Heather Berlin?

  Yeah.

• 47:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's got to help going down the line.

• 47:26Heather Berlin?

  It helps, it's a piece of the puzzle.

• 47:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 47:28Heather Berlin?

  There's a lot of pieces to the puzzle. There's, you know, the neurophysiology and the neurochemistry and the neuroanatomy and the genetic aspects and epigenetics. So there's a lot. But it is another piece of the puzzle that gets us closer to the answer.

• 47:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sweet. All right, we got to wrap this down. Chuck, you got any final thoughts?

• 47:44Chuck Nice?

  Oh, no, I think I'm going to say my final.

• 47:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sorry. Okay, what, Chuck?

• 47:52Chuck Nice?

  No, no, no, no. You just reminded me to make an appointment to see my therapist, that's all.

• 47:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, good.

• 47:56Chuck Nice?

  I'm glad.

• 47:57Heather Berlin?

  Well, I'm taking patients, so you can look me up online.

• 48:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 48:02Heather Berlin?

  No, I mean, my thought is that I just really hope that we can get to the day where everybody can look at the brain just like any other organ. And when it's broken, we can look for ways to fix it and we can work towards removing the stigma. I think it's really important, yeah.

• 48:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Heather, I'm gonna disagree with you about something.

• 48:18Heather Berlin?

  Uh-oh.

• 48:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

• 48:20Heather Berlin?

  There we go.

• 48:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 48:21Heather Berlin?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I just wanna say that the universe looked really complicated until Isaac Newton came along and showed that the movement of the planets, previously given unto mysterious divine forces, were explainable by just a couple of equations. And so his genius simplified that which was previously imagined to be intractably complex, requiring divine knowledge of the universe to even understand it. So dare I say, Heather, that however complex you think the brain is, maybe we are awaiting the birth

• 49:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  of an Isaac Newton counterpart in neuroscience, who rather than become stupefied by its complexity, becomes enlightened by its simplicity. And that is a cosmic perspective. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I wanna thank Heather Berlin for being on the show. Chuck, you're still hosting Playing with Science. That's right, sir. Playing with science. That's our sports spin-off. Our sports spin-off, which you know, you can find Heather being a guest on that show as well.

• 49:36Heather Berlin?

  I get around.

• 49:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Damn, Heather.

• 49:37Heather Berlin?

  I get around.

• 49:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Damn.

• 49:39Heather Berlin?

  I have no loyalty.

• 49:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was it about brain injuries and... Yeah, anything brain-related with sports, we go to Heather. That's gonna be a lot. Boxing, football. Oh, man, it's a lot. MMA, it's all there. It's all there. All right, we gotta go. Till next time, I bid you to keep looking up.