#ICYMI: Football: Crushing the Combine

Get the inside scoop on the NFL Scouting Combine! Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice learn what it takes to turn a hard-up college student into a multi-millionaire in 6 weeks. Guests: Trainer Pete Bommarito and NFL Media Analytics Expert Cynthia Frelund. Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on: TuneIn: http://www.tunein.com/playingwithscience Apple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360?mt=2 Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-science SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-science GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjq NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:12Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Dye.

• 0:13Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. Today, we take a long, hard look at what it takes to turn a hard-up college student into a multimillionaire in the space of a few hours. Well, maybe a little longer than a few hours, but they do get to keep the money. And all they have to do is be really, really, really good at football.

• 0:33Chuck Nice?

  Oh, yeah, that's all. And they'll also have to be superhuman, strong, ridiculously fast, super smart, and be able to cope with anything while beating the pass rush and ripping holes in an offensive line. And if they want to get the big bucks, which means that they're going to be drafted in the first couple of rounds, and they're rich, their family is rich, and they have more friends they could ever remember.

• 0:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, to get Combine ready, these college athletes are going to have to learn a whole new way of fit. And that means bringing in the science. From biomechanics to nutrition, from physiology to psychology, and from explosive power to calmness under pressure. Yes, to be a would-be NFL pro bowler, it takes a whole lot of know-how and some serious, serious science.

• 1:19Chuck Nice?

  And to guide us through what it takes to crush the Combine, we'll be bringing on the trainer extraordinaire Pete Bommarito, a man with triple-A client lists and the first-round draft picks and NFL pro bowlers.

• 1:31Gary O'Reilly?

  And to help us plot our course through the jungle of the NFL draft, we'll be joined by NFL analyst Cynthia Freeland. But that's for later, so stick around, it's going to be well worth listening to them.

• 1:42Chuck Nice?

  All right, for now, let's bring in our first guest, trainer Pete Bommarito. Welcome to the show, Pete.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Hey, thanks. Glad to be here, guys.

• 1:49Chuck Nice?

  And man, we're happy to have you.

• 1:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, for sure. You're the founder of Bommarito Performance Systems, the top training company for all NFL veterans, rookies, and draft preparation processes, is that right?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  I'd like to think so, yes.

• 2:01Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, so we've got the right man.

• 2:04Chuck Nice?

  And man, you have worked with everybody. Your alumni includes hundreds of draft picks, numerous number One rounders, number one overall picks NFL Combine fastest man, Senior Bowl MVPs, All-Star Game MVPs, numerous Combine We're only on for an hour. Testing leaders. I mean, you've worked with everybody from Le'Veon Bell to Jordan Reed, Elon Manning, Matt Stafford, Tony Romo, Odell Beckham Jr., Santonio Holmes. Our friend Santonio. Yes, our friend Santonio who's been on this show and was extremely entertaining. The Gronk, Ezekiel Elliott. I mean, God, let me ask you this. And then we're going to get into just a couple of clips from the combines and get your, get your feedback.

• 2:46Chuck Nice?

  But do you know an elite athlete when you're working them out? Like, can you look at it and go, this guy has the special sauce?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no question. I mean, obviously, I think there's a fine line between a performance coach and a football skills coach, position coach. So I never try to map that out and talk about, you know, this guy can play because it's not my thing. My thing is not to analyze film and, and talk about football intelligence, football skills. But in terms of pure athleticism, there's no question. And obviously, you know, when you see a really, really elite athlete like an Ezekiel Elliott that you named, I mean, you just know he's going to be special. When enough people talk about the fact that he's intelligent enough, he can play and he's got multiple skills. And then I look at his athleticism, which it's just rare with that combination of size, strength,

• 3:39Speaker 02

  power and speed. It's just very, very rare. You can identify something like that. You could tell he was special from day one.

• 3:47Chuck Nice?

  All right, let's get to some clips of what it takes. We just, just to give people an example of the combines and want to get your feedback on some of the stuff. We took a couple of examples from the combines this year, so 2017. And then we could talk about with you like what it is that these guys are looking for. Because the combines, in addition to the interviews where they talk to these guys and figure out what their temperament is, they're talking to these guys to figure out, you know, what their sports intelligence is in terms of their knowledge of the game. But more important- A lot of what they're looking for is athleticism. They're looking to see can this guy cut it. In terms of being a premium athlete in one of the toughest games there is to play.

• 4:32Chuck Nice?

  So, take a look, this is first, Alvin Kamara. And boosting his stock at the combines, take a look here.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  One guy that gets lost, I guess, in the Fournette McCaffrey Cook shuffle is Alvin Kamara.

• 4:51Chuck Nice?

  That's all lower body strength there.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Jumping out of the gym.

• 4:54Chuck Nice?

  That's awesome. It's a vertical jump that he just did, thirty nine and a half inches. His broad jump, and now here's his forty.

• 5:06Chuck Nice?

  He's taken off downs.

• 5:10Chuck Nice?

  Four and a half, four. Four, five, forty. Yeah. Four, five, three, forty. So, when you look at a guy like this. What are you looking for and how do you get a player? Who comes to you? And wants to boost like what we just saw, he wants to increase explosiveness. Wants to increase his speed. And I've seen a lot of guys talk about you and what you do to increase speed. So, give us an idea of what happens when you look at somebody, how do you make a plan for them?

• 5:46Speaker 02

  The most underrated and often overlooked aspect is the medical. I mean, I think people get the fact that, you know, they come out of a season that's brutal. It's very, very long, we're getting them the day after their last game sometimes. I mean, these guys are used to taking three, four weeks off and letting the body heal naturally. Just getting the deep roots, you know, the blood flow back. We have to accelerate that, I mean, not only do we have the combine coming up, a lot of times you have the All-Star game that might be in two, three weeks after, the day after we get them. So, main thing we have to do is not do this groundbreaking speed program. We have to get them into our medical center, inside of our facility.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  And analyze every joint and every muscle that crosses each joint and look for joint integrity. Issues, look at muscle asymmetries, look at instability, look at inflammation, look at scar tissue. And there's a number of things that we have to look at. And that's the most important thing is get the joint integrity back, get the muscles contracting well, so we can even do what we do in terms of implementing a proper speed.

• 6:54Gary O'Reilly?

  That's a total engine dismantling. You've got it laid out in front of you. You know exactly how you want to rebuild it. And you want to tune it and make it better. Um, it's, can you? Is it possible? Or sometimes you look at the guys and go, it ain't gonna happen.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  There's, I mean, obviously the, the biggest question is not if, it's when. I mean, the challenge we have is can we get it done by the combine and not their pro day? Is there a pro day early? Is it a specialty case? And we had five this year that were coming off surgeries they had in November, surgeries they had in December before we even met them. So we're known medically. We've got a great medical staff. My, uh, my therapists are outstanding. They're very, very well known and respected throughout this league. So they do a good job and we are definitely going to attract anybody that had an unfortunate injury, came off a surgery and they have to get ready to go. And we had a guy that came off a major knee injury. That's rehabilitation time assigned was seven months. The problem is he just doesn't have seven months.

• 7:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Now, we're never gonna get him to run a hundred percent, but the fact that we got him to run seventy-five percent before the draft was huge because now the NFL just knows that he's on track. It didn't affect him. The surgery worked, it held. He's getting his speed back and he's had a schedule. You know, and even though that's not going to be everything that's publicized highly on the NFL Combine on TV and everything, that type of thing, to erase a medical red flag is a huge win. It's just not highly publicized.

• 8:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay. So if I bring you, there's no such thing as a hundred percent fit athlete. I understand that. If I bring you a fit athlete, but he's off the pace in terms of combine ready, how long would you expect him to be ready under your tutelage, under your guidance?

• 8:38Speaker 02

  I mean, our, our standard answer is always going to be six weeks, but it's, it's hard to make that determination.

• 8:42Chuck Nice?

  Wow, that quick, huh?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  We might get them for eight, but they're going to leave in week number eight to go to the combine and they a lot of times have the All-Star game. So legitimately, we have six full weeks that we have them. So we have tried to accelerate the process by adding more medical entities to accelerate the healing from the season and make the joint specific. So the main thing is that there's got to be overlap. Like I'm a performance coach, but I'm also a certified neuromuscular therapist. And so a lot of my performance coaches, my physical therapists, my massage therapists, my chiropractors are trained in performance. There is a significant overlap where if I have a speed session planned, I don't just walk on the field. Each athlete has to go in the medical center, get assigned a therapist or multiple therapists.

• 9:27Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Get joints aligned the way that I need. So my preparation and my speed and my plyometric program actually has some substance. That's true individualization. And then after the session, go back to the medical center and see if anything changed. Reset the joint and then go to the weight room. Then go back and then reset the joint, go back out to the field, do your position work. I mean, we might have them trained three times a day. We might have them in the medical center six to eight times a day.

• 9:52Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  If you, a true individualized program, it can't be this body type or this position. It has to be, well, this joint is compromised.

• 10:01Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Let's identify how much we can change that compromise of that joint.

• 10:06Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Give it to the performance coach. Performance coach has to be trained medically to read the report and implement the proper program, uh, and, and changes.

• 10:14Gary O'Reilly?

  How big is recovery? How big is recovery for your athletes in this six week to maybe eight week process? And what sort of techniques are you using that have found to be really, really effective?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Well, recovery, I mean, the best thing I think of recovery is getting a therapist and knows what they're doing in a table. It might not be the coolest cell in terms of a table and a person, but that is the best thing. I mean, if you have a muscle contraction issue, you go to an MAT therapist. If you have significant scar tissue, you have, go to an ART therapist. Um, if you have.

• 10:46Chuck Nice?

  Pete, Pete, excuse me. Just can you tell me what an MRT and an ART therapist might be? Cause I don't know.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Okay, MAT therapists is muscle activation techniques.

• 10:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Yep.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Um, in simple terms, their job is to get muscles to contract well neurologically. If you can contract a muscle well, then you can load that muscle with a speed drill or in the weight room. But if you just load the muscle and it's not contracting neurologically, you're never going to get the maximum benefit. So they identify what's not contracting well and reset that muscle neurologically. Then they give a report of what they treated. I alter the speed drill to directly to uh attack the tissue that they treated. That is truly how you individualize a plyometric, a speed or a weight room program.

• 11:35Chuck Nice?

  Wow, I gotta tell you Pete.

• 11:36Gary O'Reilly?

  That's incredible.

• 11:37Chuck Nice?

  You seem like a really intense guy, man. Uh, how, I, I, I'm serious, like you're, you're like really into this stuff. Uh, what, what could you do for a guy like me? Look at, uh, uh, you know.

• 11:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Wish you good luck.

• 11:48Chuck Nice?

  By the way, uh, uh, I just did a, I just did a thing where I found out that for a guy my age, I'm a superior athlete. How would you increase my performance, Pete?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  The exact same way, you know, it's just when I look at a person that's not going to the NFL, their sport might be playing recreational basketball. Their sport might be, well, I enjoy running. Their sport might be, I want to walk up and downstairs without pain. We have a significant business for people that are not playing competitive sports that just want to do an activity, but they no longer can because they're in pain.

• 12:20Chuck Nice?

  Suppose that, suppose that activity is lying in a hammock and drinking alcohol.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm not sure if I have a program for that, but uh.

• 12:31Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 12:31Gary O'Reilly?

  So the thing is, we, we've talked about the physical aspect of development of an athlete to, to get them into the peak condition. To take a, to take a college athlete to a combine, you're going to need mental strengths. You're going to need the psychology, you're going to need to be able to cope with a whole lot of different things that are going on. Are you able to prepare athletes in those areas as well?

• 12:56Speaker 02

  There's no question. I mean, to do some type of the advanced neuromuscular therapy that I'm talking about, that in itself takes a lot of mental discipline. More than anything, doing all of these advanced techniques they've never been exposed to before is going to reset the joint fast, but there's an entire teaching phase and a mental preparation of how to isolate a joint motion, how to have a test be true by not cheating the test and compensating for the test. That takes a lot of, the most mental training we do is within the neuromuscular therapy sessions. It's very, very difficult. I'd say that's the one thing that we do that sets us apart is we understand that there's a learning curve to that and there's a very short amount of time.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  I'm not going to shy away from it though. It's medically appropriate. We're going to do it. So that's the biggest thing. The other thing is just changing the mentality. They're used to playing in front of 50, 60,000 people with 10 other guys in the field. Now they're going to go and onto a platform where you can hear a pin drop and they're by themselves.

• 13:57Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Even if they have a track background, it's just been a while since they've done stuff like that.

• 14:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  And believe it or not, we have to run mock combines to simulate that exactly because we see well-prepared athletes crash at these mock combines because they just mentally blow it.

• 14:12Chuck Nice?

  Wow. All these elite athletes who just love working with you. I mean, they love it. What are you doing to these guys when you get them inside of your facility where they're just like, yeah, man, this is it. Like, if you don't know, you better get the video. Like, that's how these guys, uh, talk about you.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  I mean, that's the end product. It's not as easy as that as we're going through it. Believe me, there's a lot of arguing and fighting and yelling and and this is a strength coaching facility, so.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  It's not as pretty as it looks on the video, unfortunately. There's a lot of building blocks and there's a lot of back and forth. Um, the bottom line is this, you know, we do have a good reputation. Um, we have a lot of people that swear by us of success in leagues. We're, we're very blessed. We're very fortunate. So when we get these younger guys coming out, we do hear that a lot. Like you mentioned, Le'Veon Bell. I can't tell you how many times I've heard me, put me on the Le'Veon Bell program, whatever he does, I want to do. I mean, it's, it definitely kind of sells itself. But at the same time, I think when people stop feeling pain that they felt for years because we're making the training appropriate, that is the biggest sell. And that's why consistently.

• 15:21Chuck Nice?

  Hey, hey, can you do me a favor then? Um, could you make one of those programs for emotional pain? Because I'm, I gotta tell you, man. No, I'm joking.

• 15:34Chuck Nice?

  Uh, Pete, can you stick around because we gotta take a little break?

• 15:37Gary O'Reilly?

  We have.

• 15:37Chuck Nice?

  But we want to get back and we want to talk about nutrition and some other things and, and get your insight on, uh, on some other issues as well. Is that okay?

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, no problem.

• 15:46Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 15:46Gary O'Reilly?

  All right. We'll take that short break. Pete Bommarito, the man who gets results will be with us still. Stick around. Uh, this is Playing with Science and, uh, we'll be back shortly.

• 15:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 16:01Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 16:01Gary O'Reilly?

  This is Playing with Science. And today we're talking about the NFL scouting combine. And with us via video call, we have trainer extraordinaire Pete Bommarito, creator of Bommarito Performance Systems, the top training company for all NFL veterans, rookies and drafts. And basically guys like Chuck and us as well, if you want to roll up and do.

• 16:23Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. And what, uh, speaking of which, and I know you work with major league baseball players, basketball players, are, are there any other sports that where guys come to you and you work with? Um?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  I mean, every, every sport, our, our main, uh, business model is for middle school and obviously in middle school.

• 16:39Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, we get the publicity from the pro athletes, but if you look at the demographics, you know, 50% of all middle school kids play sports. So there's just a lot more and we're in a very good demographic area and we get volleyball, lacrosse, swimming, um, we, we do it all, you know, we're very proud of that.

• 16:56Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, good for you.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Focus is kids.

• 16:59Chuck Nice?

  That's fantastic.

• 17:00Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, let's take it to, I want to call it game day, but it's not. Combine day. Over a period of four days, you will have position specific days, but. Rolling up to that, you you do you just let the athlete go out and do their thing? Or is there a whole sort of backup process around Combine Institute that you provide? Or is it something different?

• 17:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, how would you help me get to not me? Because we know we're not talking about me. I am a top level college prospect, okay? I'm going to the combines. I come to Pete and I say, look, I want to increase some speed. I want to increase my performance and I got to tell you, I got some problems when it comes to, I don't know, being tested. I really don't like it. It kind of screws with my head, man. So Pete, what do you do for me?

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Um, as I said, it's just practice. You know, I mean, I think we have got the technique down in terms of the position, the 40 yard start, the acceleration transition, the absolute speed zone, all that stuff. I mean, we we definitely have the mechanisms to train it. And when they're in a controlled environment and they're being coached, that is easy for us to get somebody to do what we want. Now, the key is is strategically placing these mock combines where you are going to pretend you are the NFL. When we're on a mock combine, we put it on a on a different field. Nobody's allowed to speak. Our staff's not allowed to coach them. They we take them through a brief form up. We basically pretend we're the NFL, get them out of their comfort zone. And believe me, the more you practice stuff like that, the better off they are on game day.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Because, you know, psychologically, you're right. It's easy to get somebody to do it if I'm sitting right there and putting their joints in the position. But they can't can they go through the mental imagery to replicate that when I'm not standing there? Especially in a quiet environment. And I know it's a simple answer. You just have to practice it.

• 18:54Chuck Nice?

  No, man, that's a great answer. I mean, to be honest, and I I actually like that answer because that that's the answer for so many things that a lot of people don't understand is it's actually being in the situation, placing yourself in the situation and being so comfortable with it, it becomes second nature.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  So it's it's difficult because I know a lot of trainers, what they want to do is make the athlete feel good and be confident. So they're going to do everything they can when they do a test to make sure that they're running good times. And unfortunately, that's easier to do. From a psychological standpoint, but you're putting the athlete in disservice. You've got to make them uncomfortable. Sometimes they are going to run a poor time. It's up to you just to make sure you have a good relationship with that athlete, so he doesn't jump off a cliff and quit and complain to his agent. You get that a lot, unfortunately. So sometimes you've got to put them in an adverse situation. And if they don't respond, explain to them why, videotape it and reset it again.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  The unfortunate part is you have such a short amount of time, it's hard to develop a trusting relationship with these guys. So God forbid, they run a poor time in week four. They might jump off a cliff and want to quit and change programs. You see that all the time.

• 20:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Hey Pete, I wonder, have you had, I'm sure you have, had athletes turn up and think, you know what, I am so first or second round pick. And you know full well that they'd be lucky if they see fifth or sixth. How do you manage that kind of expectation within an athlete?

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Hmm. I tell, we, we give speeches upfront, we give it on a daily basis. We don't look at draft rankings, we don't care. It's all a smokescreen show anyway. Nothing online means anything. And even the information we're getting from scouts, I mean, who knows if they're telling the truth, you know, if, if they like a player. They're going to feed the media bad things about the player. If they don't like a player, I mean, it's, it's just a big smokescreen anyway. Nobody really knows what anybody's thinking. So. We go into it the clean slate. We don't care what their perceived draft ranking is because whatever their draft ranking doesn't matter.

• 20:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Got you.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  And reinforce that, it keeps them off the internet, which is great. And no offence to.

• 20:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Is there a position in terms of football that you find most challenging to get to a point where you're satisfied?

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Definitely running back, um, cause you know, running back is the one where they have to run fast. I mean, you could also say lineman, but. If an offensive lineman runs a five, two or a five, one, I mean, a lot of people don't see a big difference in that. But if a running back runs a four, five. Or a four, three, or a four, six, or a four, five, that's pretty significant. So. You're going to see lot, running backs and linemen definitely come in beat up the most. I'd say moreover with running backs because. They're bigger and when they get hit, they get hit full speed.

• 21:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  And they hit the second level. It's not like with linemen hit every play, but they're not running at, you know, eighteen miles an hour and then taking a hit. Running backs just come in with so much wear and tear, even if they don't feel pain, even if they don't have an injury. Just the bruising itself from the wear and tear of football is excessive and you have to, and, and running backs honestly like to train. They wanna be fast. So the biggest challenge with that is getting them to commit to the alignment protocol, the regeneration, the recovery, the medical side and back off on the training initially. But it's hard because again, you're trying to build a trust in relationship. They wanna see what this great speed program is all about and you're making way on a medical table for eight hours a day. It's very, very difficult and challenging.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  But luckily I've had enough running backs that have bought in, had success that it's still challenging. It's just less because I've had so much success with that particular position.

• 22:30Gary O'Reilly?

  And they've already got trust in you from results that you've had previously. Has, has a player ever turned up what you would call combine ready? And just gone, you know what, I don't have to do anything with you, you're ready, you are already there. Anyone ever done that?

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Not, not ever.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  They think that, but once you put them on the clock, I think it shell shocks. Like when you're playing football, it's all relative. Let's just say that the entire uh realm of college football is only at seventy-five percent in December because they played a season. But if you're playing with and against everybody that's beat up like you are, it's all relative. But when you put yourself on a clock and then compare it to what you have with your strength coach in July, there's going to be a difference. I think all that are used to running four fours and four threes are shocked when they're on a four sevens and four eights. So it definitely makes them understand, they didn't really get slower. Their muscles are just not contracting because of all the deep bruising.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Let us reset those joints and then the natural athleticism will just take place naturally. And then when you train, you add in addition to that.

• 23:39Chuck Nice?

  So, um, speaking of that, when you're talking about these guys that come in and they're so beat up and injuries, basically, uh, like you say, even if it's just the wear and tear of bruising, they don't even know how beat up they are. Um, I, we have a clip of John Ross at the combines, this year's 2017 combines. He actually breaks the record for the 40 at the combine, the combine record. And, um, what they don't show in the clips is that afterwards, he starts limping. Like, he runs through and it's great, but then he is, he comes up kinda gimpy at the end. So, I want you to take a look at the clip and then let's talk about injury and how you prevent it.

• 24:22Chuck Nice?

  And what you do, uh, and why this may not have happened under you. Go ahead, take a look.

• 24:28Chuck Nice?

  So here's John Ross, he's about to take off on the 40.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Here he goes.

• 24:32Chuck Nice?

  Here he goes. He's running.

• 24:36Chuck Nice?

  He just ran through.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Where'd our number go? 422. No way. The official time for John Ross, according to the electronic timers here at the combine, is 422.

• 24:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, if you're looking at that, Pete, do you see anything in the biomechanics that gives you an idea of why maybe he was limping afterwards?

• 24:55Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, at the very end, he starts out, now there is an extended clip here where, now you can see actually the little stutter he takes when he's already run through the 40, you know, as he's slowing down, he takes a little stutter step. But then, there's another clip that goes on for another minute and a half. And they show him and he is, he's treating his leg very, very gingerly, like he might have pulled something. So, um, what do you do to work with the player so that that kinda stuff doesn't happen?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  I mean, first off, we have to be fair to John Ross. I don't know him, I didn't train him. We gotta be fair to the trainer.

• 25:30Gary O'Reilly?

  No, fair enough, that's a good point to make, yeah.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know exactly, it could have been a guarding pattern. And when, when your muscle reaches its toll of power, and you try to exceed that threshold, which will happen when you get into that cycle of the 20 to 40 zone, sometimes it'll just guard, you'll feel a tightness, you'll feel like, stop, pull, damage. It's literally just your body telling you to exceed the threshold, which definitely happens.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  In training, it happened in running, you know, so because I don't know him and don't know the exactly what happened, it probably was just a guarding pattern and intelligently, he just shut it down at that point, which which I've seen athletes do. The only thing that I can speak of is what happened with with guys that I've trained. And a great example is Keith Marshall last year. He doesn't have the household name, he's not a first round pick, but he was the fastest guy in the 2016 combine. When we got him, the biggest with him is the fact that he had multiple knee surgeries and he had the torn hamstrings coming out of college. He didn't really, you know, he kind of played behind Todd Gurley and all that. So he just got was in a very, very unlucky, unfortunate situation. So, and he even told me, though, I can obviously play football fast, but when I do 40-yard

• 26:45Speaker 02

  dash training, sometimes I have hamstring issues. So with him, he was fast, it was just for our ability to have him control his stride. And that is a trainable effect. So when we train somebody like that, of course, after he ran his two forty to the combine, even though he ran a four two, whatever, so he was not necessarily limping, but he definitely said, yeah, I can feel that guarding pattern coming back on. So he went and did the exercise I taught him to do, reset it, and he finished and did his position work, you know. So really, it's about when you're that fast, but you have a football body and football injuries, the easiest explanation is you got to teach them how to control their stride.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  And we and all the guys we've ever trained that have ran that four two range, those types of things happen, you know, and even with DeMarcus Van Dyke was the fastest guy we trained in 2011, he ran a four two five. Same kind of thing, but once we taught him how to control the stride, it was better. But again, it always goes back to what the deficiencies are. Keith's issue, it was in his trunk, was spine. The more we trained and aligned his spine, the more he was able to control his stride. So it's completely on an individual basis.

• 27:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow, that's pretty cool. So it doesn't seem that you that there are too many things that you cannot overcome in terms of athlete development, in terms of all areas of performance. I mean, you've got a very holistic program anyway.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. We like to think ourselves as a one-stop shop. We've been called that before, I'm very proud of that. I mean, I think the main obstacle that we're ever going to face is time. We had a couple athletes this year, and I hate it, but it does happen that just unfortunately. Could not run by Indianapolis. They came in with significant injuries and we got them better. They passed the physical. They weren't medically replied, but they weren't close to being a hundred percent. So they had to wait till their pro day. You know, so, so it's not like it's a perfect program. I mean, sometimes guys just need more time. And, and it's just the unfortunate part of the business, but you gotta make intelligent decisions when it comes to a guy like that. Cause the last thing you want is for him to go to the combine and then get injured. If he's not.

• 28:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And I think you're doing splendid work down there in Florida and I hope it continues for you and successful program. So brilliant to have you on the show. Thank you so much.

• 29:02Chuck Nice?

  Thanks for being here, Pete, and hopefully you'll come back whenever we're talking about all things performance.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  I appreciate it, guys. Thanks for having me on.

• 29:09Chuck Nice?

  That's fascinating stuff.

• 29:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Isn't it? I mean, when you think about that whole program, he's gone from top to bottom, from left to right and back down again. Truly holistic and athletes can only benefit out of it. It's okay when you're building physical strength, power explosive and you're getting the mind right. But Chuck, in the end, combine and draft is about one thing and one thing only.

• 29:33Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go with.

• 29:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, go on.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go with, um, personal satisfaction.

• 29:39Gary O'Reilly?

  If that personal satisfaction comes in the shape of a dollar bill, you're on the money.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And speaking of which, I, here's the perfect little, uh, here's a perfect little clip.

• 29:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Nobody says it better.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Evidence that. Here you go.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Yeah. What, what, what can I do for you, Ron? You just tell me what can I do for you?

• 29:59Speaker 05

  It's a very personal, very important thing. Hell, it's a family model. Are you ready, Jerry? I'm ready. Wanna make sure you're ready for me? Here it is.

• 30:12Speaker 05

  Show me the money.

• 30:24Speaker 05

  Jerry, doesn't it make me feel good just to say that? Say it with me one time, Jerry. Show you the money. Oh, no, no, you can do better than that, Jerry. I want you to say it with me, then, brother. Hey, I got Bob Chuk on the other line, I'm gonna hear you say it. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, show you the money. I don't show you, show me the money. Show me the money. Yeah, louder. Show me the money. That's it, brother, but you got to yell that shit. Show me the money. I need to feel you, Jerry. Show me the money! Jerry, you better yell. Show me the money! Show me the money! You're the hottest black man! I love you, black man! Show me the money! I love black people! I love black people! Who's your motherfucker, Jerry? You, my motherfucker!

• 31:10Speaker 05

  What you gonna do, Jerry? Show me the money!

• 31:14Chuck Nice?

  Congratulations, you're still my agent. You know what? I think I'll have what he's having.

• 31:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, I'll have a double, for sure. And that's what it's all about. The money! We're gonna take that break, and when we come back, we're gonna have an NFL Network analyst, lady by the name of Cynthia Freeland. She is going to break down the draft. Makes sense. And show us the money. Yeah, why not? See you shortly.

• 31:46Gary O'Reilly?

  We're back on Playing with Science. And today, we're talking NFL Scouting Combine and the NFL Draft. Joining us now by video call, we have NFL analyst Cynthia Freeland. Welcome to the show, Cynthia.

• 32:00Chuck Nice?

  Hey, Cynthia. Thanks for joining us. First of all, we should actually tell people that for the NFL, you are a media analytics expert. And so, I know you from ESPN, but you now work for NFL, right?

• 32:15Speaker 06

  Yep, I do. I made a transition right before the NFL season last year.

• 32:18Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 32:19Speaker 06

  The last off.

• 32:19Chuck Nice?

  So now, can you just tell people, for the benefit of those listening, exactly what a media analytics expert is? Anyone who has fantasy football, they already know you, and they know exactly what it is that you do, because you're invaluable to somebody who's into fantasy football. They love you.

• 32:36Speaker 06

  Or they hate me.

• 32:37Chuck Nice?

  Or they hate you, or they hate you. So tell people.

• 32:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Listen to what you say, that's the important thing.

• 32:42Chuck Nice?

  That's for sure. Tell people what you do.

• 32:45Speaker 06

  I use numbers and the strategy of numbers to create a game plan. So that can be like on a team level or in this evaluation season. It can, it can help kind of figure out like, okay, what kind of wide receiver does a coach want? And we can figure out attributes to get that. Or you can say, when it comes to team time, you can say, these are the trends that this team has exhibited. And these are the trends that the team they're facing has exhibited, what might happen from that? So predictive analytics is basically just a recipe to try to understand strategy.

• 33:17Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha. So, you know, as, as with everything else, it's kind of big data. And then you actually make use of this big data. And before we go any further, we should tell everyone that if you're interested to see some of the things that Cynthia talks about, you can follow her on Twitter at C F R E L U N D, at C F R E L U N D, at C Freeland. Okay?

• 33:39Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go.

• 33:40Chuck Nice?

  Just want to get that plug in for you.

• 33:41Gary O'Reilly?

  That's done.

• 33:42Speaker 06

  Thank you. I appreciate that.

• 33:43Chuck Nice?

  So let's jump into this year.

• 33:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Winners and losers.

• 33:46Chuck Nice?

  Winners and losers.

• 33:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah. So the Browns had 5,000 picks. Is that right? Or it seemed as if they dominated.

• 33:53Speaker 06

  I think 5,000 is exactly the right number. Nailed it. 5,000.

• 33:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Did they use them wisely?

• 33:59Speaker 06

  So the thing that you have to know about analytics, so there's no such thing as like analytics working in a vacuum. Part of it is talking to the coach. Part of it is talking to kind of figuring out, does the coach have a game plan for this player with their particular set of attributes? So I think what you saw is that they took players who made sense with what Hugh Jackson was trying to implement. So really focusing on defense, bringing Greg Williams in, he's a great defensive mind, a great coach, able to get the best out of his players, at least in his past jobs. Bringing him into Cleveland and then giving him these great tools, right? You've got an excellent first pick. You've got, I mean, whether or not Ruben Foster plays, like he'll be an excellent pick too. There's some injury concern.

• 34:40Speaker 06

  And then getting, coming back up to get a tight end, that's a great, that's a great strategy to fulfill the things that you want to do if your coach is on board, which it seems like they're, they're working together.

• 34:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Back to the draft of 2017. Has anybody come out in your mind and you looked at it and gone, wow, these guys really just nailed this whole thing? They got everything they needed and maybe more?

• 35:05Chuck Nice?

  Or even from the coach's standpoint, is there somebody that feels like, hey, man, we nailed it?

• 35:11Speaker 06

  So to me, like, the first round, or even two rounds in this draft specifically, we had a pretty deep draft this year in terms of overall talent. But it's interesting to me to see, kind of, the later-round picks, how they can staff up your team. So you see a team like the Seahawks, they didn't think the person that they wanted, they didn't think they needed to stay up in the first round, so they, again, traded out of the first round. And that's worked for them in the past, because they have a great track record with undrafted free agents, with figuring out late-round picks that last. And then you see the Steelers, who take, like, this kind of opposite approach, and they pretty much just pick where they're picking, because, you know, you hear analysts on TV say, "He looks like a Steeler."

• 35:48Speaker 06

  And then they figure out, I mean, I guess that's, it makes sense to me, but it oversimplifies it saying that. So you see, like, kind of, people picking these pieces. I actually think, you know, I've been trying to find, like, some silver linings, because I think some Bears fans were confused about trading up when it seemed like they didn't have to. But for me, the value that they've got was actually with their tight end. So Adam Shaheen, he's a later-round pick, he was out of Ashland, a small school, he's like 6'7", 270-something, he's giant, and he caught 16 touchdowns last season. So there are some, those later-round picks are where I think the value is.

• 36:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Didn't the Bears trade up for the quarterback, Trubisky?

• 36:31Speaker 06

  Yes, that's why they're confused. I was looking for a silver lining for him. Yeah, yeah.

• 36:35Gary O'Reilly?

  It's interesting, because this, it's not a standardized crop of players every year, and this year was an irregular crop, and it was kind of QB-light, so you just thought maybe the higher va- the higher value would have been on the quarterbacks, because there weren't as many, maybe.

• 36:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think, to me, the, like, if they thought they wanted this quarterback, it's not a bad strategy to make sure they get him, right? Like, if that was their, if that was it, then strategically, yup, do it, go for it, right? So I think San Francisco ultimately, I mean, San Francisco had an awesome draft, like, I think they're probably... Their draft is maybe my favorite, so of any of the classes, you know, they got the players they thought were the number one and number two and and that's where I messed up the Ruben Foster, sorry, but long story short, they got who they wanted and they got it where where they could afford it, afford it meaning equity. So in the draft, you move around to get players and create equity. Like, it's not just moving down to create more picks,

• 37:33Speaker 06

  it's also moving up to get the person you want.

• 37:36Chuck Nice?

  To get what you want, yeah.

• 37:37Speaker 06

  Right, yeah.

• 37:38Chuck Nice?

  So, so, so, and, and, and that seems to be very important for a lot of teams to make sure, hey, look, this is the guy. And that's, I think that's because they may, they know their system and they know that, look, or they know how they're going to change their system and they know this is the person that fits in what we're doing. But talk about, when you mentioned Seattle, I'm, I'm thinking about how lucky they were because when you look at who is their quarterback now, Russell really wasn't supposed to be there for them. And then he-

• 38:08Speaker 06

  Remember, they had Matt Flynn there, right? They brought Matt Flynn for a lot of money and then Russell was working out, so-

• 38:13Chuck Nice?

  Right. And, and so, my point is, how much of this really comes down to sometimes just, I don't know, I, I, I want, I don't want to call it luck, but just luck. Like, you got, you, you, you know, like, there's just, things just worked out. Like, things just worked out.

• 38:29Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, no, you can't do that. I mean, all right, you maybe back me up here, Cynthia. 2010 to 2012, they draft five or so future Pro Bowlers. They win a Super Bowl and they go back the year after to defend it unsuccessfully. You don't get that lucky. That surely has to be by design.

• 38:45Chuck Nice?

  No, I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about-

• 38:47Gary O'Reilly?

  They've laid the seeds for a Super Bowl team a couple of years before.

• 38:50Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about just individual players. Now, I'm not talking about a system and the things that it takes to win championships because you're absolutely right about that. There's no luck involved there. But I'm just talking about, like, in the, in the case of Russell, you know, that just worked out for them.

• 39:07Speaker 06

  It's also a matter of opportunity and training, right? So, so first you have to evaluate a player accurately. And then you have to give them the opportunity to succeed. And then that has to work out, right? So if you evaluated Russell Wilson, you're like, hey, he's, he's worth someone. We can put him in this place where he's not forced to start right away. We can give him some, a chance to grow or whatever. Maybe that's how they viewed it. Cause Patrick Mahomes, uh, who was drafted number 10. He's in that situation. He's not forced to start this year. He could end up being the best quarterback in this class because he gets a little chance to learn behind Alex Smith. Get into the system, understand that correct some of the things that people saw as potential deficiencies when he was in college. You know, he gets some time. So opportunity has a lot to do with it as well, right?

• 39:49Speaker 06

  If you have a great O line, like, you know, we, everyone kind of underestimates Dak Prescott. Cause he has this great O line.

• 39:57Chuck Nice?

  Incredible.

• 39:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 39:59Chuck Nice?

  Incredible.

• 39:59Speaker 06

  I mean, if he would have gone somewhere else, maybe that wouldn't have been the case. I don't think you could have.

• 40:04Chuck Nice?

  I say, I say the same thing for Ezekiel too, uh, who's, you know, I say the same thing for Ezekiel. I mean, that offensive line is completely, I would not underrate it, but they don't get nearly the kind of, uh, props that they should for the success of these two rookies.

• 40:20Speaker 06

  Right, right. And, and I honestly like, that makes a huge difference. So a lot of these quarterbacks, it's about opportunity. So the Bears are actually a pretty good team. I'm a little confused who the wide receivers are going to end up ultimately being. But apart from that, like, I mean, you know, Jordan Howard, the running back, they, he's good. They actually have, the, the Bears pay their guards more than their tackles, which is an interesting strategy that Ryan Pace presumably brought from, from Saint, uh, from the Saints to Chicago. So that's an interesting, it's, we'll just see if that works out. But I don't know if he'll be asked to start right away or not. The opportunity that's created for him will totally dictate whether or not he's successful.

• 40:57Gary O'Reilly?

  So when when it comes to drafting a college player, can you stick him through an algorithm or is it all about the combine and game tape and experienced eyes on him while he's playing his college football? Or do you or you can just stick him, his name in a computer, throw it through a whole lot of equations and come out with a yes or a no?

• 41:16Chuck Nice?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 41:17Speaker 06

  I wish it was that easy, right? So um I can give you a really unsatisfying answer and the answer is that like optimally it could be both. So you would ideally work with your coach and coaching staff to enact the attributes that you value the most. So you say, hey, okay, this we want a quarterback that kind of looks like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are the things we value most.

• 41:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 41:37Speaker 06

  And then you you filter all of the game tape through the smart eyes of the scouts and you do some subjective coding, which means like um does he look like a stealer uh on a scale of one to five?

• 41:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Hmm.

• 41:48Speaker 06

  And five is the yes, is the is the most and one is the least. And every single guy from our scouting department and every single coach gives this guy a five, he looks like a stealer.

• 41:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Hmm.

• 41:57Speaker 06

  Right? So you can code for things like that. Um and then you and then you blend it in through both so that when you're making these decisions kind of in the heat of the moment during the draft, the ideal is is if you create the the analytic system, the black box, as you kind of describe it.

• 42:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Yep.

• 42:11Speaker 06

  And you're in the draft moment, then you take bias out of it. So you you don't think about the guy next to you, you don't think about the team drafting after you, but rather you you put it through the formula you created.

• 42:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:23Speaker 06

  And then you get you you limit your choices to maybe two or three as opposed to sixteen or twenty. So you have a more disciplined, a more disciplined approach.

• 42:32Chuck Nice?

  With that in mind, you just sparked something in me very uh that makes me very curious. How do you as a head coach codify your coaching staff? So for instance, let's say you get, okay, let's I I hate to pick the New England Patriots again, but I have to.

• 42:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 42:49Chuck Nice?

  Okay. Uh one thing about their system that you can say is the truth.

• 42:53Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 42:54Chuck Nice?

  Players leave, somebody steps in and does the job. I mean, just so to me, that says you have a tremendous coaching staff. Okay? So how does a head coach uh make that decision uh when it comes to picking a player that may not be the best in terms of what the combines say, in terms of where the draft is, but you know that your coaches can work with this guy and he will do the job?

• 43:22Speaker 06

  So that would be where that kind of the subjective coding I just talked about would come into play. I get a stuff with air quotes. I'm doing it all morning. Tomorrow?

• 43:31Speaker 06

  Ultimately, you would say, all right, running back coach, do you want to work with player X? I got you. Value their input. And like I said, you could do it on a sliding scale of like out of five, or you could say, or you could say something like, hey, show me all of the running backs in this that are draft eligible or free agent eligible that are over six two, have great receiving characteristics, have great yards after contact characteristics, have blah, blah, blah played in this type of offense in college, et cetera. And then you can put them on a piece of paper and you can go through it together and and kind of solidify your vision. So you have the same vision for the coach and the head coach. So you're you're getting this kind of like everyone working together using like some

• 44:15Speaker 06

  players on some teams can be cogs and more interchangeable, but some players have unique attributes and you have to create a defense around them. Like, you know, Paul Amalo is a good example. He was not exactly a like a prototype of any one position. But, you know, like Garrett Blunt was the kind of prototype running back that, you know, that the Patriots like. So it's like prototype versus create an offense around or defense around. Prototype. You have to balance that. Interesting.

• 44:42Gary O'Reilly?

  So having been a scout for professional soccer, right?

• 44:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:45Gary O'Reilly?

  You need to know your coaching staff and you need to know what they're looking for. They need to and then you need to identify players and not just identify the player that you're looking at now, particularly younger athletes. You've got to be able to project where they are going to be in five or so years' time, because that's the player the coach is looking for. And that that takes experienced eyes. That takes someone who's been around, understands, has been in that player's position possibly. But there's a real connectivity between all the levels of the club and the organization.

• 45:17Speaker 06

  It also sounds.

• 45:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Into the one pair of eyes that goes out and watches a player.

• 45:20Speaker 06

  I'm going to say that. Shine a light on that, right? So like, take those eyes, take that experience and create a way to communicate that to the whole system and whole team so that everyone understands the thing that you like your your unique scouting attributes, the things that you can see best, then that can communicate that to the group best so that you're making in the heat of the moment during the draft, you can make the best decision. Like I said, these later round picks are the ones where that kind of thing becomes more. Like you have to do it quicker and faster so the analytics can help you.

• 45:52Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Speaker 06

  Um, the first round or two, you kind of know who you want. I don't, uh, there are very few teams who uh, are picking in the top 10 that don't have a pretty strong game plan as to who the one or two people they're going to take.

• 46:04Chuck Nice?

  Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a much, it's a much tighter pool too. I mean, you know, there's, you know who's going to be there, honestly. So.

• 46:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Chuck, you know, I've got a conspiracy theory somewhere up the sleeve or the other.

• 46:15Speaker 06

  I love conspiracy theories.

• 46:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, here we go.

• 46:17Chuck Nice?

  Here we go.

• 46:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Conspiracy theory number one.

• 46:19Chuck Nice?

  Let's have it.

• 46:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Right. So we have private tryouts for college football stars, correct? So I'm NFL team X and I've got this guy on a private tryout and he blows all of the numbers away. So I tell him, when you go to the combine, wear lead boots. Completely be useless on the bench press. You know that shuttle, that 510 5, ah, walk it, right? He then be cut, so he's now going to be a first or second round draft pick. And all of a sudden he drops to five or six.

• 46:54Chuck Nice?

  Ah, yeah, but that's a big chance to take, man.

• 46:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Has anyone ever done that? Has anyone ever played that kind of devious game?

• 47:03Chuck Nice?

  And has there ever been a player stupid enough to go for that is the real question? Cause you come to me with that and I'm just like, nah, buddy, you can suck it. Cause I'm going to blow these combines away. Cause if you want me, everybody's going to want me.

• 47:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, I um, I've never heard of that, but you can track, some teams are very strategic about who they bring in for workouts and some are not. So like the, if you look to see who the Seahawks bring in for private workouts. Um, especially the like guys who you've never heard of. There's like a guy named Dalton Crowson. Um, who played, he, you know, he played at University of New Hampshire, running back. It could be someone that those Seahawks give a real look to later on. So some teams give you clues, but I've, I've never heard of anyone like taking their combine.

• 47:49Chuck Nice?

  It, it's kind of a great conspiracy though, because if you know a player, for instance, let's switch sports for a second. Kobe Bryant, remember he and his dad? And they were like, we're playing in LA and that's it. Okay, so if you're LA, if you're LA, you're just like, alright, well, we're just, hey, listen, by the way, we're gonna pay you five dollars a game. So, you know, you're, you're in a, you're in a, you're in a very big advantage if you know a player wants to play for you. So i- in a way, it's not so crazy of a conspiracy theory.

• 48:21Speaker 06

  Unfortunately, in the NFL, there's two things working against the conspiracy. The first thing is the rookie pay scale, so everyone gets paid.

• 48:28Chuck Nice?

  Oh, that's right.

• 48:29Speaker 06

  So like, that, that kind of makes it this equalizer, right? So if you're on the roster and you're a rookie and it's, you know, game one, that year, your, your salary is what it is. Now, your signing bonus or what's guaranteed, if you're a first or second round pick, that changes, but meh. Then, you know, like, then you, like, actually, in my opinion, it's like, if you're not gonna be a top 10 pick in the first round, you're almost better off going in the second round because then they can't protect you for that fifth year. So you get to make your real money in the, in, after your fourth year.

• 48:58Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 48:58Speaker 06

  Uh, so, I mean, it's just like the way that the shared revenue system works or whatever, but that's probably the one reason not to. And then, like, you wouldn't want the negative, like, combine press because then, to me, the combine can only kind of hurt you.

• 49:12Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, cuz that lowers your value all the way, all the way around when you have a bad combine, right? Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  It does.

• 49:18Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask you.

• 49:19Speaker 06

  Combine is predictive. It's not overly predictive.

• 49:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it's not. It is. You're, you're absolutely correct. And speaking of that, in your opinion, now the combines are over and everybody's done their thing. Who do you think, uh, give me like, top three had the best combines? Like, in terms of accomplishing, like, uh, changing opinions about who they are, maybe? Bumped up their draft. Bumped up their draft pick, maybe, or increased their money? So using those three criteria, okay? Changing people's minds, bumping up your draft pick, and also, uh, bumping up your money. Who do you think had the best combines?

• 49:54Speaker 06

  So I, to me, like it's, I'm using results to give this answer and I can't imagine anyone doing it more than Patrick Mahomes because I don't think anyone had him projected in their top 10 at all.

• 50:05Chuck Nice?

  Hmm, okay.

• 50:06Speaker 06

  You know, quarterback price, so obviously it was probably some combination of like his workouts and his interviews and stuff, I mean, he didn't have like, his combine wasn't like, he, he didn't run a blazing 40, he, he fell within normal ranges, you know, he, he fell within good ranges, he wasn't bad at the combine, but you know, obviously if he bumped himself up that much, he must be very special.

• 50:28Chuck Nice?

  So, so basically he's the benefit of lower expectations is what you.

• 50:32Gary O'Reilly?

  How interesting, yeah, gone in, gone in with low expectations, I mean, he could blow the combine away.

• 50:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, he must have, like, to me, the combine is like, can you do, can you follow these rules, can you handle this situation, it's tiring, it's like, a lot of adults asking stupid questions, like, can, can you handle this stuff, right?

• 50:52Gary O'Reilly?

  That's an adult's job, isn't it?

• 50:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, to be annoying, yeah.

• 50:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 50:56Speaker 06

  That's all I do now. But, you know, it's like, how can you handle it, and he, he was a, he's a very nice, nice guy, like, he's a, he's a, like, got a good personality, very, you can see the other, like, I was watching the quarterbacks interact with each other, I was just very curious, and, you know, I, I, I thought that they definitely, um, you know, they gravitated towards him and Deshaun Watson probably more than the other guys, so that was my takeaway from just watching their body language and who they were looking to, to kind of, like, who were they like, okay, what do we do, what's going on, so, those were the two that I saw.

• 51:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Do you see analytics and their use being more effective on helping college players stay and perform better in the NFL, is that, is that something you hope will become more and more important and more and more prevalent?

• 51:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think like, again, it's like, kind of this marriage of like, you know, what is this coach with this great vast knowledge in his head that's gonna know more than I've ever known, like, in my, in my, and well, he's forgotten more football than I'll ever know in my life, right? So marrying that with a way to look at things that, that allows you to say what-if scenarios pretty quickly, like, what if we? Put this guy in, you know, wide receiver three or wide receiver two, like what kind of routes do you want him to run? So it allows you to explore some of those like innovative ideas that ultimately end up being what wins games. So it's like, how do you, how do you do that kind of quickly without, we only have 16 games, right? So some teams have but so since we only have 16 games, you can't, it's not like basketball where you could try different combinations of.

• 52:27Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you have to, you have to hit the ground running and you have to win right away. And quite frankly, by game eight, there are some teams and their season is over and they know it.

• 52:36Speaker 06

  Like before game eight.

• 52:37Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly. So.

• 52:38Speaker 06

  It's like impossible to get back. So you know, it's, there's not a lot of chance, time to take like a lot of chances or try things. So it's like, how do you create a paradigm where you can try some things without the, the problem of losing a game?

• 52:51Chuck Nice?

  Wow. Well, this is fascinating stuff.

• 52:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you. Yes.

• 52:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:56Chuck Nice?

  We gotta have you back when we talk more analytics and the NFL.

• 52:59Gary O'Reilly?

  And thank you for your insight and explaining so much about the draft and really how it works and how it then progresses forward into coaching and careers.

• 53:09Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, fascinating stuff.

• 53:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Great to talk to you Cynthia. Thank you so much indeed.

• 53:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, thank you so much. Nice to meet you, Bob.

• 53:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Likewise. All right. That's it for our show. Fabulous insight into the combine and how you make it or break it. And plus that wonderful insight from Cynthia Freeland. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 53:26Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 53:27Gary O'Reilly?

  This has been Playing with Science. We will see you also very, very soon.