Reporting on Science (Part 1) – extended with Elise Andrew of IFLS and Bill Nye

Take a journey beyond the headlines into the business of science journalism with Miles O’Brien, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Chuck Nice, and a new interview with Elise Andrew of IFLS and Bill Nye.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I also serve as Director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium, right here in New York City, at the American Museum of Natural History. My co-host is the one and only Chuck Nice!

• 0:37Chuck Nice?

  And thank God for that, huh? The one and only.

• 0:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're thanking God today, right? Okay. Not your parents for birthing you.

• 0:46Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, today, we're gonna be talking about my interview with the science journalist Miles O'Brien.

• 0:51Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 0:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, how many science journalists can you actually name?

• 0:55Chuck Nice?

  Uh, now? One. Now I can name one. Miles O'Brien.

• 1:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Miles O'Brien. He's had a whole career in this stuff. He was a science correspondent for CNN for 16 years.

• 1:08Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 1:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And he might even been there from the beginning. I mean, I don't know. CNN ain't all that old, right?

• 1:13Chuck Nice?

  Not really.

• 1:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. And he's reporting on science and space and aviation and environmental issues. He was their go-to man. And right now, he's no longer with CNN and he's a... He does pieces on science for the PBS NewsHour.

• 1:27Chuck Nice?

  That's great.

• 1:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Formerly the McNeil Air.

• 1:30Chuck Nice?

  McNeil Air Hour.

• 1:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. Did one of them die or something?

• 1:32Chuck Nice?

  I'm not sure.

• 1:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  One of them left.

• 1:34Chuck Nice?

  I'm sure one of them's gone. I'm not sure if he's left us completely.

• 1:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Don't know if he's left this earth or not.

• 1:40Chuck Nice?

  Right, left the earth or not. But, yeah, I think they both retired.

• 1:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're both retired, okay. So I caught up with Miles on the road. And I said, "I can't miss that opportunity to get him on StarTalk." So I pulled out my microphone and we just started talking.

• 1:53Chuck Nice?

  Sounds so dirty.

• 1:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I didn't say I whipped out the microphone. I said I pulled it out. You made it. I made it clean!

• 1:59Chuck Nice?

  You made it clean. I made it dirty.

• 2:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was wondering, was he always interested in science? And did he study science in school? And how do you become a science reporter for a major news? So this is what I was curious about. Let's find out.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  I'm a history major, and it shows in my reporting, don't you think? I'm a classic example of a guy who has a natural interest and appreciation for science. And without naming any names, was taught by some teachers who didn't infuse the enthusiasm for the subject that should be there.

• 2:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Enthusiasm, because you can read that immediately in the face of a reporter.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's interesting how, when I came to the subject, I came to it in such a strange way compared to other people. History major, I've become a reporter, I'm in local news for a dozen years.

• 2:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What local? Where were you local?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I was in St. Joe, Missouri. That's a big market. 191 out of 203 at the time. I used to shoot my own stories back in the day when the camera was attached to a big recorder, which itself weighed about 100 pounds, all myself, one man band. And then I found my way into Albany, New York, then Tampa, Florida, Boston. And then, while I'm in Boston.

• 3:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Each market ever bigger than the previous one?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, more crimes to cover. There's more bodies and therefore more, you know, there's fires and mayhem. And so I was getting tired of that, but I didn't see a logical way out necessarily until I heard that CNN was looking for a reporter. The catch was they were looking for a science correspondent. A science correspondent, the history major, who had been chasing around.

• 3:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now you're being audacious to respond to an ad for a science reporter.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Scientific term would be ballsy. So I managed to cobble together a tape that had a reasonable number of technical stories that was kind of science-y.

• 3:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Science wasn't something scary to you?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  This is the key. The only reason I am where I am. I was never afraid of the subject.

• 3:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's important.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Yes, and this is a key issue with people, because there is a science phobia, which I discovered in a palpable way when I was trying to get stories on the air at CNN. You know, that newsroom is populated by science phobics. There are all poli sci, history, English majors, God bless them, I'm one of them, who are petrified. You say the S word and they practically run from you. And I cannot tell you how many times you go through all the iterative processes to get a piece ready for air and then there's a final play for the supervising producer of CNN, play the tape for them. Tape, we had, in those days. That was about to come out. Yeah, back in the day. Man, I didn't even know. And it was relatively esoteric. It was like buckyballs. Carbon sixty, making the vertices of a soccer ball, essentially, yeah. Right, it was graphite of the year. It was on the cover of Science Magazine. You know, it was a

• 4:39Speaker 02

  big deal for a little while. We thought we were gonna have super connectivity by now, on Mars, with buckyballs. A lot of these things didn't pan out, but anyway. And the flying cars, too, don't forget those. Yes, exactly. So I flew my jetpack into the newsroom and played this tape about buckyballs. And the guy said, "I know this is science, but that was interesting." Wow, that's some kind of book in it. Yes, as if the two were mutually exclusive. So, it's interesting how science is perceived by people. And I think we do a pretty good job in our educational system of scaring people away. But how much of this was because you were simply a good journalist, telling the story? That's a really good question, because really, the purest definition of a journalist would be,

• 5:24Speaker 02

  the most important thing is an overriding sense of curiosity, a desire to understand your subject. No matter the subject. And an ability to communicate that to your audience. That's the job, right? Right. So whether it's politics, and lord knows we get a lot of that, or science, it should be the same discipline. When I went down to interview for the job, Bailey Barish was the science editor at the time. She was a former molecular biologist. She actually knew science. And I came in there as this local news guy, cobbled together this reasonably technical tape out of Boston, and really had no business being there. And she put me through the two-day interview, which included going out and shooting a story, you know, reading in front of the camera, all the stuff you'd expect, but also a written and oral exam about science. Man.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I flunked. You know, she was asking me all these things about climate change, and this was nineteen ninety-two. Early in this. You would've known about it, but I was the history major chasing bodies around in Boston. I didn't really know much about it. We knew about it from the eighties when they started talking about the effect of climate change from asteroid impacts and nuclear winter and all of this. And of course, Jim Hansen and Al Gore were talking to Congress about it late eighties, but I wasn't paying attention. Anyway, so I flunked it miserably. I get to the end of the line after this two-day ordeal, the president of CNN, Bob Fernand, and he's at his desk, you know, and he doesn't even look up from the papers, you know, his desk. Obviously, you don't know shit about science. So this is one of those moments in your life, what do you do? And I threw the Hail Mary

• 6:49Speaker 02

  pass. I said, "And that is why you want to hire me." And I thought at the time that was deep into the ballsification. The truth is, it is the truth. Because the audience of CNN, it's not scientists. You know, they tell us to write to somewhere between the fifth and eighth grade education. And what you need is somebody who's curious, not afraid of the subject, and able to figure out ways to communicate complex things in a more simplistic way. All those things, as it turns out, I was pretty good at. And so, actually, having somebody come in there defending a degree might get in the way. And, as we all know, science is a lot of things to a lot of people, and it's very compartmentalized. If I happened

• 7:30Speaker 02

  to be an astrophysicist, what would I know about buckyballs? Or whatever. I would have a keener understanding of the scientific process. But I learned the scientific process pretty quickly along the way. And I also had a former molecular biologist as my editor. So, it's a great lesson for all of us, I think, about science, and why it scares us, and how, if we're just a little curious and embrace it, we might all like it.

• 7:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're listening to the StarTalk interview with science journalist Miles O'Brien. That'll continue when we come back.

• 8:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk Radio. Neil Tyson here, Chuck Nice.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Across the desk from me. We're here in New York City, and we're talking about science journalism.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we've got Miles O'Brien. So, apparently, you only know one science journalist, and his name is...

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Miles O'Brien. And before this...

• 8:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You've got to get out more.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I really do. And, except, I also know Science Friday, except I don't know the journalist.

• 8:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't know the journalist on Science Friday. NPR, Science Friday.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  But I'm going to rename him Ballsy O'Brien.

• 8:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ballsy, from that last clip. Yeah, as a history and nature bust into the man's office, saying, "I'm going to be your science reporter."

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. Ballsy O'Brien.

• 8:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But that's kind of, that's, that's, there's a gender-neutral way to say that.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 8:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You say, "Go, Naddle, O'Brien."

• 8:57Chuck Nice?

  Go naddl.

• 8:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, go naddl, because men and women both have gone now. Go naddl, there you go. Um, so, uh, we, we have more of my interview with him. Uh, like I said, I caught up with him like on the road and I, some of the clips sound like we were in a rain conduit under a highway.

• 9:14Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 9:16Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, that's so true.

• 9:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But we got him, I got him on, on tape.

• 9:20Chuck Nice?

  Were you guys graffitiing a wall while you were talking?

• 9:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll get the interview wherever I can, whenever I can. Uh, so, uh, in this, in this next clip, I, I'd asked him, what is, what's going on? Cause it seems like journalists are now the center of the story. You know, they're not talking about something else. Everything's got to go through them and get their opinion and their perspectives. And I just was curious about the trend. Let's find out.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  I think the idea of journalists becoming personalities was probably rooted in a good idea, but it's gotten out of control. The good idea is that we all need to kind of have somebody take us along for the ride. Otherwise, you'd all go out and do stories and it'd be mayhem, right? The notion of journalism is that you hire a guy like me who has the time wherewithal, profession to go out and talk to people about complicated things and, and relay that back. In the process of doing that, you kind of want to go along for my journey and see how you did it. That makes for a more effective storytelling motif.

• 10:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're my personal guide?

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Kind of like that. I'm a tour guide to the world of science. Now, you could do it other ways where people like you as a scientist could carry the entire story, sort of the old BBC style, right? No narration, just let the scientist tell the story. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that this is another way to do it. What happens though is if you get really good at it, you get in the way of the story as the fame and the fortune and the attention.

• 10:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Your identity becomes bigger than the story itself.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's like the, the sun exploding and taking the planets in with it. I don't know, that's a bad analogy. The point is, I think it's difficult to stop this train, once it gets going down the tracks. And we're pretty far down the tracks right now. The thing about working for a place like PBS is, no one cares. There's no money or fame, it's just, we go out and do stories.

• 11:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Go out, get the job done, go on to the next.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  I insert myself to the extent that it makes sense, and no more, no less, and it doesn't get out of control. What happens is, it becomes a real money game, and frankly, it leads to bigger contracts for journalists, and so, it's obvious that they would do this. But I think there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there, in telling the story.

• 11:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I guess, I don't mind people being personalities, but what has happened is, the journalists have now become opinion leaders. And so, the line that I thought used to be there, between, here's someone who I trust, who's giving me news, and here's someone who, I just heard the news, but now they're telling me how to think. I don't know that that line is still there.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  No, it's gone. But I think what has happened, part of the problem here, is that in a world where information has become a commodity, what is a journalist to do to provide the value added? Right? How do they, in this cacophonous world, wave their hands and say, "Hey, hey, listen to me over here." And it's a natural outcome of my experience, covering news for thirty years and space for twenty, to have enough depth and knowledge of it, to actually be able to analyze it in a way that is not just the facts, ma'am. I can go beyond Joe Friday. Now, does that mean that I turn my work into just opinion screed after opinion screed? No.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Does it mean that I, in the context of what I do on the web, through the various media that I'm involved in, there are places for me to kind of connect some dots that I wouldn't necessarily in a classic AP-style story? Yes. Reporters are given a license to give their opinion, it's very easy to just keep doing that.

• 12:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's happened with Lou Dobbs. He was probably the first to do that in a really big way. I used to watch him for news, and then I noticed a growing fraction of his delivery of content, which is how he thought about the world, it was like the Lou Dobbs Show, you know, rather than time to get more news.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Well, there's a lot of history to this. Of course, you know, we call this the Fox-ification of news, because Fox, of course, made a huge business out of providing news from a very distinct perspective.

• 13:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From a point of view.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Right? There used to be a thing called the fairness doctrine, all that's gone for the broadcast, of course, cable's never been FCC-controlled anyway. So, what you've seen is this kind of polarizing component to the mainstream media on cable. Lou saw that, got right on there, and she helped lead that charge. And the presumption is that plain old vanilla newscast that Ted Turner always said, "The news will always be the star here." That was his quote back in 1980.

• 13:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That sentence was actually uttered.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  That was uttered. It's an quaint and humble time.

• 13:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, my God.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  He got off his horse there in Atlanta and it was lit by kerosene. "The news will be the star." What a notion.

• 13:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Somebody should resurrect that.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  CNN's philosophy should be that still today. But for whatever reason, they've decided they have to answer this foxification factor, but they can't quite figure out how to do it because they want to be the world's most respected, important network, which they are globally. And yet, they want to put in this edge, and you can't square that very well. So I think, frankly, if they just got back to that notion, you could cut your salary on air talent, you know, Ted just hired washed-up local anchors to do it back in 1980 because that's all he could afford. And all they did was give the news. Well, these days, could you make a business doing that with all the other sources?

• 14:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Maybe not.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 14:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I'm not sure.

• 14:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So Chuck, does your fame get in the way of your storytelling of accurate content?

• 14:33Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah, all the time. And by get in the way, I mean not at all, because I don't have any fame. Kind of hard for it to get in the way of something that doesn't exist.

• 14:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That doesn't exist. Well, let me ask you something, because I'm partly on the journalist's side of the line in the sand, because I get called by journalists to talk about the universe. If you're watching the news, what do you want to hear? Do you want to see a famous person and then have them talk about the news objectively?

• 14:59Chuck Nice?

  I don't want to see a famous person. And he's right, you know.

• 15:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Miles O'Brien.

• 15:03Chuck Nice?

  Miles O'Brien is right. I love when he says, basically what he's saying is, "You got to get the money out of journalism." You hear that, Matt Lauer? We're coming for you. No.

• 15:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Coming for your paycheck.

• 15:13Chuck Nice?

  We're coming for your pay. It's like Citizens United. Get the money out of politics. We got to get the money out of journalism. Because it really has become about personalities. It's a cult of personality.

• 15:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but it's not the journalists. For all people, tune in. They want to see Anderson Cooper. They want to see Rachael Ray or she's cooks, but still. Personality apparently matters.

• 15:32Chuck Nice?

  Well, you know, I blame Walter Cronkite for this.

• 15:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good point. People tune into him.

• 15:38Chuck Nice?

  And he's the guy that did it. He's the guy that was, people were like, "I got to get home and watch Walter Cronkite because I really trust that guy, and whatever he tells me is true."

• 15:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's his fault.

• 15:48Chuck Nice?

  It's his fault. God rest his soul.

• 15:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, I, I have to agree with you.

• 15:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was his way of telling the news that people trusted.

• 15:56Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 15:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we didn't think of it as personality type, but that's what it was.

• 16:00Chuck Nice?

  That's really what it was, yeah. And for him to be on the news nightly and coming into your home and saying, you know.

• 16:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In your living room.

• 16:06Chuck Nice?

  In your living room. And that's the way it was, or it is, or.

• 16:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or will be, or it might have been.

• 16:15Chuck Nice?

  I love that. See, that's true journalism.

• 16:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right.

• 16:18Chuck Nice?

  And that's the way it might have been.

• 16:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's honest journalism.

• 16:22Chuck Nice?

  I'm totally objective.

• 16:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, for most of my world, the universe, it's hard to put a strong opinion on it. You know, if I tell you, you know, two galaxies are gonna collide, or the sun just burped up some plasma, and that gets reported, it, it's not susceptible to politicizing.

• 16:42Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I don't know. You don't watch a lot of Fox News, do ya?

• 16:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I mean, you'd be surprised. I mean, of all the sciences.

• 16:52Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 16:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Astrophysics, I think, is the least politicizable. When you think about it.

• 16:56Chuck Nice?

  See, yes.

• 16:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's biology, there's health, there's, you know, think of all the other sciences and the way people try to put a spin on it.

• 17:02Chuck Nice?

  But see, now, here's the deal. Once again, you're thinking like a scientist. Because when you think about the absolute, you know, what you think is just a truth, okay? For instance, the age of the universe.

• 17:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Chuck Nice?

  Because of measurable light.

• 17:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, 14 billion years old.

• 17:22Chuck Nice?

  14 billion years old. There are people who say, nah-uh. That's no. That, that can't be.

• 17:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, so, but it's, it's, like I say, the good thing about science is true whether or not you believe in it. And we just move on.

• 17:36Chuck Nice?

  Oh, that's true. Now, that's, that's a good point.

• 17:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's all, that's all I'm trying to say here. But the, the idea that we have personalities, I think it's unavoidable because we like personalities. There it is. You can complain about it, but it's not gonna change.

• 17:47Chuck Nice?

  And also, information has to do with, whether or not you receive it, has to do with, uh, from whom it's coming.

• 17:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The storyteller.

• 17:52Chuck Nice?

  The storyteller.

• 17:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And not everyone is an equal storyteller.

• 17:54Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 17:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, and the journalistic version of a storyteller is, do I just like what you wear, or what you sound like?

• 18:00Chuck Nice?

  Or your hair.

• 18:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Chuck Nice?

  Right. Your great journalist hair.

• 18:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Crazy. We gotta take a break? We'll be back with StarTalk's interview with Miles O'Brien, science journalist.

• 18:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk Radio continuing. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. Chuck Nice.

• 18:25Chuck Nice?

  Your personal comedian.

• 18:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, is that right?

• 18:28Chuck Nice?

  I'm trying to be something.

• 18:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You need some kind of moniker.

• 18:31Chuck Nice?

  I'm just trying to be something now.

• 18:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's your Twitter moniker? Chuck Nice Comic.

• 18:35Chuck Nice?

  @ChuckNiceComic.

• 18:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Comic, okay. I follow you, actually.

• 18:38Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I follow you, too.

• 18:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, well, thank you.

• 18:40Chuck Nice?

  Of course.

• 18:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mutual-following society.

• 18:42Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 18:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've been listening to my interview with Miles O'Brien.

• 18:44Chuck Nice?

  Fascinating stuff.

• 18:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The science journalist. Started out at CNN and freelanced for a bit, and now he's a regular correspondent for the PBS NewsHour. It's all about science journalism. And I just wanted to get to the bottom of it, because I've been interviewed a zillion times, and not all science journalists are created equal. And so I wanted to ask him, what did he think made a good interview or bad interview? Let's find out.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  How many times have you sat and listened to an interview on TV where it's obvious the person doing the questioning is not listening?

• 19:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I see that.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And this happens a lot in live TV. It's very difficult.

• 19:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like, they're just going through the motions.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very difficult, because they'll say, hey, we got Neil Tyson on this morning, and we're going to talk about this new planet they discovered, right? And we got maybe four minutes. And when you get on the air, somebody's gone long before you, the politician, and they get in your ear and they say, we only have two minutes with Neil. And then, you know, you're...

• 19:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because they're talking to you the whole time.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  And then when you talk, the minute you say something, they're screaming in my ear, and I can't... So it's obvious what happens. That becomes a horrible interview, and a lot of that is not the fault of the anchor person. But the moral of that story is, if you're allowed the opportunity to actually have a dialogue, as we're having now, you'll have a great interview. You know, Larry King famously did not do homework. He was proud of that fact. Now, I think that's a little extreme, but there is a little kernel of wisdom in that.

• 20:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's right, he's CNN. He's in the family.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  He is in the family, but he famously did not do any homework. He wanted to be as if he was a viewer. Which led to some very embarrassing moments on television frankly, where he just asked some really inane stupid questions. However, by and large, I think there's something to that. You don't want to forget who's coming along with you on this. And to the extent that you're trying to impress people by being smart and knowing stuff, you're not doing a good job as an interviewer. You're just trying to show off. If you're just asking questions that seem logical to you as a reporter and a person, and by extension, the viewers, and you're listening to your subject, you're gonna have a great interview.

• 20:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that must be the times when I find myself sometimes having to toe the interviewer when I'm being interviewed. Because they don't really know what they're asking, so I have to sort of help them along. And that's a big effort that I have to put in. I don't want to have to do that.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  It takes two to tango. Sometimes you just don't click.

• 21:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because when they do click, then we can go to new places. In a short amount of time.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  It's extraordinary.

• 21:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a back and forth, and there you go.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  And you know, I know this is a family show, but it is like some other things in life. You got the chemistry, you don't, right?

• 21:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I am fatigued when I have to toe a journalist's interview. Oh, man. It's like, we could have made music together, and now I'm toeing your ass.

• 21:24Chuck Nice?

  Exactly, right. Your big lard butt. Your big journalist-ed lard butt, I gotta carry you around now because you don't know what...

• 21:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you must feel that, what? You must feel that if you're doing a room. If you're in a comedy doing a room, and the room is not with you, you gotta toe them, right? That's a burden.

• 21:41Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but you know, you can't look at that way, can't look at it that way as a comedian, because it's my job to make them laugh. So I can't look at them and say like, "Well, you guys aren't getting this. It's your fault." You know, "I don't suck, you do." It's a little difficult as the comedian to take that stance.

• 22:01Chuck Nice?

  Right in the middle of my ass. "You know what? You guys suck."

• 22:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You guys have no sense of humor.

• 22:06Chuck Nice?

  Right, you guys have no sense. But now, it's funny what he said about... I think the thing I learned the most in that clip was that Larry King is lazy.

• 22:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, cuz I did, I never did Larry King while he was on, excuse me, I was never interviewed by Larry King. While he was on CNN.

• 22:24Chuck Nice?

  Thank you for saying that.

• 22:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But he has a web show now.

• 22:29Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 22:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I did his web show.

• 22:31Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 22:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so my first time ever with Larry King, there's suspenders and...

• 22:35Chuck Nice?

  Cleveland, you're on. Cleveland, you're on with Neil deGrasse Tyson. We're sitting here having some gin sona together. What's a question?

• 22:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so, so what was interesting was, he never actually followed up on any answer that I gave. He just kept, it was like a machine in motion.

• 22:53Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 22:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, it was, superficially, it might have seemed like a conversation, but it wasn't.

• 23:00Chuck Nice?

  But it really wasn't.

• 23:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It wasn't. He was just, I'm getting through these questions.

• 23:03Chuck Nice?

  I'm getting through my questions.

• 23:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whatever he answers, doesn't matter, I'm moving, you know?

• 23:06Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 23:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that means he gets through an interview, you know, you gotta credit him that.

• 23:10Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 23:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's not gonna leave anything out from his agenda items, but...

• 23:13Chuck Nice?

  But that's not a conversation.

• 23:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was not a conversation.

• 23:16Chuck Nice?

  And it's also not an opportunity for people to learn even more and more, especially with someone like you. Cuz you're, I mean...

• 23:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I go places.

• 23:23Chuck Nice?

  No, I'm serious, you do, and I'm not, you know, listen, I'm gonna kiss your butt just a little bit right now. But the fact is that you're not just smart about astrophysics, you are, and you are intellectually curious, period. So like, there are so many things that you can talk about, that's what, that's, you know, that's why I do this show.

• 23:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it flushes, well, thank you, thanks for, yeah, it flushes out all the surrounding terrain.

• 23:44Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 23:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of a conversation. No, I agree, I agree. So, so, but it's interesting that he is definitely aware of that, cuz he's on the journalist's side of that equation. And he sees it and he knows it when it's happening.

• 23:55Chuck Nice?

  Right, right.

• 23:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, so, so, generally, when I go in, I'm ready for the journalist to not come back at me, and I try to parcel the information so that it lives on its own.

• 24:07Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 24:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, but if they then engage me, we go to new places.

• 24:10Chuck Nice?

  Now you know what to do. So, see, now that you do do in comedy, it's like, ooh, I could tell this is a stupid audience.

• 24:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Take that to another place.

• 24:16Chuck Nice?

  I better go someplace else.

• 24:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When we come back, more StarTalk Radio.

• 24:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk Radio, we're back. Neil Tyson here with Chuck Nice. Chuck, we just came off that clip about what's a good interview or a bad journalistic interview.

• 24:41Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, you know, I don't expect anything from the journalist. I try to come with my information parceled, and I check to see if, does it click or does it not?

• 24:50Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I put out a little testers to see, are they paying attention or are they not?

• 24:54Chuck Nice?

  Oh, absolutely. We do that in comedy, too.

• 24:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You do?

• 24:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you have to calibrate your audience.

• 24:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Calibrate? Oh, I love the word. Very scientifically literate.

• 25:01Chuck Nice?

  You gotta float little trial balloons, you know what I mean? You tell a joke and then they don't get, you're like, "Oh, okay, I see what it is. We're going in a dick jokes it is."

• 25:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dick jokes, right.

• 25:12Chuck Nice?

  That's what you're getting. Okay, people, that's smart for you.

• 25:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're calibrating the intelligence level of your audience.

• 25:20Chuck Nice?

  Basically.

• 25:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Miles O'Brien, there's a lot of history there. He started at CNN, and then CNN closed their science division.

• 25:28Chuck Nice?

  God.

• 25:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I said, "Look, I can't interview Miles without hearing some backstory on that, so let's see what he has to say."

• 25:34Speaker 02

  In 1980, when CNN was new, and the fanciest commercial they could get on the air was the Chia Pet and Zanfear the Flute Guy, AT&T, back when it was really Ma Bell, approached Ted Turner and said, "Ted, how would you like it if we sponsored your fledgling cable news network for science stories?" And Ted said, "Science? Yes, we'll do science." Now, admittedly, Ted Turner probably would have done science eventually, would have gotten around to it, but AT&T forced the issue. They came in and they said, "We want to do three spots a week. You'll play the spots, and right after the spot, we'll air an AT&T commercial. And then we'll compile those pieces along with a few other things, and we'll have a

• 26:19Speaker 02

  weekend show called Science and Technology Week, and we're going to give you X million dollars."

• 26:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Brilliant idea.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, there was a science unit at CNN, brand-new network cable news, 24 hours, and they had a science unit run by a molecular biologist, Bailey Barish, and off to the races they went. And for years and years and years, the world could be coming to an end. And those spots would air.

• 26:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, guaranteed and timed.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  The pieces were linked to the advertiser. We had a direct linkage between our science coverage and moolah.

• 26:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the crash truth, not some noble principle.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  No, it was money.

• 26:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Money.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  There were other, they had a travel show that was similarly linked to commercials. And over time CNN decided they didn't like that and they didn't have to do it anymore because they got to be the big dog. And so why should we force ourselves, producers hate this because in the middle of their show, they have to put the buckyball piece in with the AT&T spot right after it and it messes up their show and if something's going on and makes it difficult for us to produce our shows. So let's get rid of the linkage. And once they got rid of that linkage, it was just a matter of time. Now, I deluded myself into thinking we were so good and that they cared, or at least I thought that for a while, but then I noticed we weren't getting on the air. We would pitch ideas, we would produce stories and they wouldn't get on the air. And then

• 27:40Speaker 02

  we get queries from certain shows to do, you know, how does that water skiing squirrel water ski anyway? Is there some science there?

• 27:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It felt the beginning of the end.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the first shuttle launch that you're not covering for CNN because you got pink slapped.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm watching CNN and in come the replacements.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Send it the clouds.

• 28:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In come the replacements and this particular launch, it landed at night.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So there was like the night scope on it. And so they announced it saying, oh yeah, there's a glowy area of the show. Yeah, they got a special camera that makes the hot spots glow. And so I tweeted, I said, could someone teach the reporter the word infrared? So he was describing what he saw, but with no understanding behind it. And so therefore the viewer is not taken to a new place that they don't see for themselves.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  And worse yet, no one in the newsroom would have called him on that and said, you dummy, that was infrared. Because they either are not listening or are equally uninformed.

• 28:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, if you don't have dedicated staff, they don't have the vocabulary, they don't have the insight, they don't have the lexicon to carry a story. So they're just people on the street at that point.

• 28:52Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 28:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not trained journalists.

• 28:53Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Yeah, people who are, yeah, these guys are going up into the sky. In their sky chariot. Oh my god, look at that, it's magic.

• 29:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And there's hot flames coming out the back.

• 29:09Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Apparently the ship had Mexican. There's a lot of flames coming out of the back. Oh, what? It's terrible. It's terrible. No, it's, you know, it makes sense. You're absolutely right. What he just hit on and what you just said, one of the things that, beyond that, in addition to that being annoying, the fact that these guys are kind of proud and think it's cute when they don't know something about science. You know what I'm saying?

• 29:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. Oh, I never did well in science. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. The interesting thing is there's a lot of mysteries in science where if you learn a little bit of science, then you could talk about those mysteries, not the mystery of why you don't know the word infrared at all.

• 29:48Chuck Nice?

  Right. And there's not a mystery behind that. It's called public school.

• 29:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Public school.

• 29:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, this is StarTalk Radio. We'll be back in a moment.

• 30:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, and I'm in studio with Chuck Nice.

• 30:18Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 30:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck Nice comic.

• 30:20Chuck Nice?

  That's right, at Chuck Nice Comic.

• 30:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that where you, no, you're at here right now.

• 30:24Chuck Nice?

  I am at here. Oh, my mother would just had a stroke.

• 30:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's where you be at.

• 30:27Chuck Nice?

  Where you be at? I be at here. Oh my, oh god.

• 30:33Chuck Nice?

  I could almost feel the lash of a belt across my backside. How dare you.

• 30:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, bringing the ghetto into StarTalk Radio. Uh, we've been featuring my interview. This whole show has been on science journalism and who's the leading science journalist? It's gotta be Miles O'Brien. I mean, who else would we be talking about?

• 30:50Chuck Nice?

  Uh, who else?

• 30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I caught up with him. I think it was in Washington DC. I did this interview some time ago and it was the best I could do. I had pulled out a microphone and, but do you know what? You know what's happened to Miles since then?

• 31:01Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 31:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He got into an accident and he damaged his forearm of his arm and they had to amputate. He's like missing half his arm now.

• 31:08Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 31:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I know. He had really good spirits about it because the, the option was to not amputate and then die. So if that's your choices, I think you're, you're good with the missing

• 31:17Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 31:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Half an arm.

• 31:18Chuck Nice?

  One arm, die.

• 31:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 31:20Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 31:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got that, but he's got, he's back in business and got an active Twitter feed and he's still doing pieces for the PBS NewsHour. So, uh, that he's a real trooper.

• 31:30Chuck Nice?

  Oh, good for him.

• 31:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I wonder, I asked him in the interview, what kind of stories? You know, I like knowing people's favorites, right? So I asked, what is, what's the favorite stuff he likes to do as a, as a journalist? Because you know, there's going to be some boring stories out there.

• 31:42Chuck Nice?

  Uh, yes, this is true.

• 31:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Every, you know, everybody's got to do the boring ones, but why, I just wanted to find out what makes him tick.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  What meant the most to me as a journalist, covering the loss of Columbia, to be on the air for 16 solid hours lives, no net, and drawing upon my knowledge and with

• 32:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is the Columbia space shuttle that broke up.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  The loss February 1st, 2003. At, at that time I was a couple of weeks away. We had been having private meetings to talk about what NASA had agreed to do, which was to fly me on the shuttle to the station. That was all ready to go once Columbia landed.

• 32:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were in line to be an astronaut.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  I was gonna do, I was gonna move to Houston. I had the whole thing lined up. I'd been working on it for years and that Saturday morning, we lost Columbia crew, friends of mine, NASA. Yeah, this is our family, right? And so as a journalist, talk about a mix of emotions to deal with, and I went on the air for 16 hours and frankly helped our nation get through a horrible tragedy. And so I'm extremely proud of being a part of that. But to say that's your favorite story, sounds really strange, because it's a horrible thing. So, the bookend to that is, to cover John Glenn's return to flight with Walter Cronkite as my co-anchor. Who else in the world can say Walter Cronkite was their co-anchor? And we ended up having a nice relationship that lasted up until his death. That's the way it was.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  He was a great man, and it was a wonderful experience, so it's hard to beat those two. Is there some future story that you want to cover? You know, if I had the opportunity, I would gladly take a one-way trip to Mars and set up a bureau there. Gladly. Wouldn't that be awesome? Mars Bureau. Yeah, that Mars Bureau. That sounds great, too. Doesn't that sound good? Miles O'Brien. Reporting live from the Valles Marineris. Well, and you see, the reporting, I've thought about this reporting lives thing. You think the lag is bad going to Baghdad now, 20-minute, the punchlines on jokes don't go so well. Yeah, there's no witty report tag. You know, Miles, how you doing? We'll get back in 40 minutes. 20 there and 20 back.

• 33:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, you can't have spontaneous live reporting.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, because Mars, you know, at its sort of average is 20 minutes away, like travel time.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Like travel time.

• 33:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, so I'm gonna say, "Hey, Miles, how you doing?" 20 minutes later, he receives it, and he can answer instantly, right? "I'm fine." 20 minutes later, back, right?

• 34:06Speaker 02

  That's great. And here's the thing, that would kill that conversation. "I'm sorry, could you say that again?" You're done. Just wasted an hour.

• 34:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exactly. So there'd be some serious nipping and tucking of those interviews to put them on air. But it's interesting how tragedy, and consider that CNN, its greatest ratings over all the years, were during tragedies, when during the Gulf War, you know, when there was major disasters, people tuned into CNN, and so there it is. I mean, it's maybe, it's something deep within us all, I don't know. We... We

• 34:44Chuck Nice?

  Oh, we definitely gravitate towards the macabre and tragedy.

• 34:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Does that work in humor too? Did you?

• 34:50Chuck Nice?

  Yes, it does, as a matter of fact.

• 34:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which is odd, because people want to laugh, but now you're going to make them sad, and they laugh about being sad?

• 34:56Chuck Nice?

  And well, there is a very specific dark humor that many people, you know, subscribe to.

• 35:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really?

• 35:03Chuck Nice?

  That they just love when you, you know, when you have jokes, like, there's, okay, like, dead grandmom jokes? Okay, I hate to put it that

• 35:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dead grandmom jokes, okay.

• 35:11Chuck Nice?

  But there's a whole genre of, they're just called dead grandmom jokes.

• 35:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just the dead grandma genre?

• 35:16Chuck Nice?

  Yes, and people love it.

• 35:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You guys are messed up.

• 35:18Chuck Nice?

  We are messed up in the head, man.

• 35:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You guys are just messed up, okay?

• 35:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, actually, no, now that I think about it, when I tell cosmic stories, the ones that people, eyes open the most are like, when the human species goes extinct from asteroids.

• 35:34Chuck Nice?

  Oh, God, yes.

• 35:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you get stretched and spaghettified falling into a black hole.

• 35:38Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  People totally dig that.

• 35:40Chuck Nice?

  Well, there's something in our psyche that, I mean

• 35:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so it's not you comedians are messed up, we are messed up as humans.

• 35:45Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. I mean, I have to say, one of the most fascinating things to me is when you think about two galaxies colliding.

• 35:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A train wreck that is the most awesome thing to observe ever.

• 35:55Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, and why would that appeal to me?

• 35:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so we conclude in this StarTalk that human beings are just messed up.

• 36:01Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 36:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the head.

• 36:02Chuck Nice?

  Thanks for tuning in.

• 36:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have a nice day.

• 36:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck.

• 36:09Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 36:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Next up, we're gonna find out where all the science journalism has gone.

• 36:14Chuck Nice?

  Indeed, sounds like a folk song in the making.

• 36:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You compose one by the end, and we'll listen for it. StarTalk

• 36:20Chuck Nice?

  Dylan.

• 36:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  StarTalk Radio will be right back.

• 36:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Chuck, guess who we have in studio?

• 36:37Chuck Nice?

  Well, yeah, I'm excited.

• 36:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got the science guy.

• 36:40Chuck Nice?

  Yes, the science guy.

• 36:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Bill Nye the Science Guy.

• 36:43Bill Nye?

  Where has all the science journalism gone?

• 36:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That wasn't even good grammar either, and we're bringing in by Skype.

• 36:51Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From the UK.

• 36:53Chuck Nice?

  Ah, the A's we live in.

• 36:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Only, Elise Andrews. Elise, hello.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Hi, how's it going?

• 36:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks for joining us on StarTalk Radio.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  Hi, thank you for having me.

• 37:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everyone who knows you knows why we have you on the show, but maybe others don't. Elise Andrews is like founder of IFLS.

• 37:10Chuck Nice?

  IFLS?

• 37:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 37:12Bill Nye?

  I F L S.

• 37:13Chuck Nice?

  I F L S.

• 37:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so at least we all know what the I love science, the I L S stands for, but what does the F stand for?

• 37:25Speaker 04

  I don't know, I didn't check with the producer, am I allowed to swear?

• 37:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She frickin' loves science.

• 37:34Speaker 04

  Frickin' love science.

• 37:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You frickin' love science.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  I seriously love science, I fracking love science, there's only words you can put in there if you want to.

• 37:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I, I wondered, you know, this morning I looked up on your, on your Facebook page. And it's, so Facebook, you can like, become a follower of it, it's called liking.

• 37:54Bill Nye?

  You can like it.

• 37:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can like it, that's what they call it, and at least you're rising through nineteen million people.

• 38:01Chuck Nice?

  Whoa.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  We're about fifty thousand away from nineteen million.

• 38:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nobody knew that that many people effin' love science.

• 38:09Chuck Nice?

  Yes, I mean, there are quite a few people who just love science.

• 38:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, so if we added all the people just kinda love science?

• 38:15Chuck Nice?

  And the people that like science.

• 38:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And people like science.

• 38:17Bill Nye?

  I F K L.

• 38:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Add them, add all them up, you've got a billion people, would you agree?

• 38:25Bill Nye?

  Uh, you might have a billion people.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  I'm not sure about your specific numbers, but yeah, somewhere in, somewhere in that range, I think so.

• 38:32Bill Nye?

  Anyway, it's a lot bigger than many people think is the, is the deal, and so.

• 38:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the deal.

• 38:36Bill Nye?

  And then the irony is, in the midst of all this, we have people who deny science, who don't wanna participate in science, who don't wanna fund science.

• 38:44Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm, now, I'm gonna say, Elise, before we get going with any other questions, in the interest of full disclosure, uh, I don't deny science, but I am a climate denier, so just so you know, I deny.

• 38:56Speaker 04

  Wait, so you deny?

• 38:57Chuck Nice?

  I deny climates.

• 38:58Speaker 04

  You deny that the climate exists, or just, just the whole thing, the whole climate?

• 39:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I'll, I'll kick his ass after the show, I, I got Chuck, don't worry about Chuck.

• 39:08Bill Nye?

  Is there gonna be video?

• 39:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let me ask you, at least, the, journalistically, we just came off an interview with Miles O'Brien, and in part of that interview, we, you know, it was a two-parter, and he doesn't work for CNN anymore. They don't even, they didn't, they fired the whole science unit. And what, I don't know the future of science journalism, other than looking to sites such as yours, to bring science to the public. But you're an aggregator of science, right? Not, you're not creating the science news up front. So if no one is actually finding the science news to report on, are we in a world where the public's access to science is through these aggregated sources? What do you have to say about that?

• 39:54Speaker 04

  I mean, I think aggregators are becoming more and more important in the world. The internet is this amazing place that's full of so much information, but so much bollocks as well. And the average person doesn't have the time to sift through all that. So aggregators are hugely important. I think editors and people who've got a keen eye for spotting the nonsense and sifting through it all, that is really important. But we do actually post original news now. I've got a website, I've got a writing team, I have staff, I've got people with PhDs on staff, which is really exciting. So even though I started as an aggregation site, it's very much moved into creating original news. And so I do think aggregation is really the way that the 21st century media is going. But we do need to retain long-form journalism. And I'm horrified to hear that CNN have let go of their sinus journalists and journalists, because we need that.

• 40:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yes, it was years ago.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Really?

• 40:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. But let me, first of all, I want, in America, I want us to have the word "bollocks" too. That's a great word.

• 40:48Speaker 04

  Bring it on. It's such an English word, isn't it? It is.

• 40:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I want that word too.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  Bollocks.

• 40:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, with your permission, we will-

• 40:54Speaker 04

  It's fantastic, it's so expressive.

• 40:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's so guttural, right.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  I love swear words, they're just, they're so expressive, it's great. But we need that, we need long-form journalism.

• 41:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, to that end, we have, at the Planetary Society, full disclosure, Neil and I are on the board. Even more full exposure, he's the CEO of the Planetary Society.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  Sweet.

• 41:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, it's what happens when you leave the room, you come back. But we have Emily Lockdewall, who is excellent, and she was in the control room when Feeley died the other day, because her journalism is well-respected enough.

• 41:28Bill Nye?

  That they include her. So, uh.

• 41:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And she not originally a trained journalist, she's an enthusiast.

• 41:34Bill Nye?

  She's a geologist, yeah.

• 41:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Geologist.

• 41:35Bill Nye?

  Who studies planets. And so what I'm driving at is there's a, uh, there's a rising to the top. If it's high enough quality, uh, long form journalism will find its way. And you, uh, at least provide the outlet for that.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's encouraging.

• 41:52Bill Nye?

  That is.

• 41:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're the Huffington Post of science.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  God, that doesn't sound great, does it? But I think what's really exciting.

• 42:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, why did you insult my guest here?

• 42:05Chuck Nice?

  Oh, my God, that was awesome.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  I think what's really exciting is, is in this world of Twitter and in this world of blogs and in this world of everybody having Facebook and everybody having Twitter, you get to see scientists and people who are still actively engaged with research now becoming actively engaged with the public. Everybody who publishes these days publishes a blog. People write their own stuff. You know, this great stuff about the Fila and Rosetta, you know, there were fantastic blogs coming out of European Space Agency. Scientists writing about it themselves, which I think is another great thing that's come out of this internet age. It isn't all just journalists talking about science. You've got scientists talking about science. I mean, there's a website that I.

• 42:39Bill Nye?

  Well, in fact.

• 42:40Chuck Nice?

  What do they know about?

• 42:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What do they know about science?

• 42:45Chuck Nice?

  That's what Bill's, Bill just said, what do they know?

• 42:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you're saying here, what the, the unspoken fact here is that as science journalism began to fade, we took it into our own hands. The science community plus the enthusiasts plus the internet. And we said, we're gonna do our own reporting without the middle, the middleman.

• 43:06Bill Nye?

  This is the democratization of, uh, journalism. So whatever, what we, what I say to students and what I'll say to the audience is when I was young, if you look something up in the Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, Elise, you, you could count on it. It was probably correct, right?

• 43:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 43:25Bill Nye?

  Uh, but now you go to the internet and you find many, many, many, many more sources of much lower quality. So the skill that we need to imbue in students is, uh, how to sift through that.

• 43:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm just encouraged that, what, from what you said, and I agree with it, if you're good, it can percolate up and become noticed by others. This is a very good sign.

• 43:46Chuck Nice?

  However, there is something to be said for having an organization that has the resources, uh, and the wherewithal to make that happen.

• 43:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, well, well, so but at least starts from scratch. You have a staff of writers in long-form journalism. You did, that's not how you started, right?

• 44:00Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

• 44:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so she's gonna become, uh, she's gonna become a journalism media magnet.

• 44:07Chuck Nice?

  Fantastic.

• 44:07Bill Nye?

  She is one.

• 44:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Even more one.

• 44:11Bill Nye?

  Yeah. One-er.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  I'm like a ginger Rupert Murdoch.

• 44:16Bill Nye?

  Yes.

• 44:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we, uh, just we got a couple of minutes left in this segment. What, what else can you share with us about your, what you, this empire you've built?

• 44:23Bill Nye?

  Clarification, yeah. You, you use the term ginger, cause you're redheaded? Is that what that's about?

• 44:29Chuck Nice?

  That's what that is.

• 44:30Bill Nye?

  All right. Just, you know, radio is our visual medium.

• 44:33Speaker 04

  That's what I'm allowed to call it.

• 44:34Bill Nye?

  Yeah, sure, yes.

• 44:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you for, for being considerate of our audio audience, yes. Yeah, so, uh, what, uh, what, what, what wisdom can you share with others who might want to start a blog or be famous like you?

• 44:45Speaker 04

  Be famous like me? Oh, uh, don't, don't go into it looking for that.

• 44:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Talk about something you're excited about. Get excited about it. And if you've got something you want to say, the internet has provided the resources for you to do it. If you want to start, if you want, if you want to do it on Twitter, on Facebook, a blog, a podcast, a YouTube show, the internet has provided you with all these amazing resources to get your voice out there. So do it. Even if you're talking to 10 people a week to start with that, we'll grow. And maybe you'll never get to 19 million, cause most people don't. But you will be able to build an audience of people who are interested if you've got something to say. You just have to get started.

• 45:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There it is.

• 45:21Chuck Nice?

  There you have it. That, uh, that, uh, that's why I'm excited to announce now my new blog, which is actually funded by ExxonMobil, and it's called Climate Change: The Jury's Still Out.

• 45:35Bill Nye?

  There probably is such a thing.

• 45:38Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so Chuck, you're precisely the kind of people we don't want to have blogs.

• 45:43Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 45:44Bill Nye?

  But here's the thing, you guys.

• 45:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's to stop that? I mean, nothing's gonna stop Chuck's blog, right?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Nothing's to stop that. No, that's absolutely a problem, and that is a huge problem on the internet. The crazy people manage to find their own people. What, thirty years ago would have been a crazy guy living alone in his crazy little house. He now manages to find the ten people on the planet who agree with him, and they manage to sit there and talk to each other and convince each other further of things, and that's one of the downsides of the internet.

• 46:08Chuck Nice?

  I call that Wednesday, so.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:13Bill Nye?

  So this is a big concern, you guys, is that the, uh, that everybody's voice has the same sound, the same size at first. So, uh, how do we...

• 46:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's gotta rise up.

• 46:25Bill Nye?

  And so a question is, this, these people are self-selecting. Uh, Elise's audience is self-selecting. I know the StarTalk listeners are self-selecting, so, uh, there's still a problem of getting it to everybody.

• 46:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This remains a challenge, not yet resolved.

• 46:40Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Elise, thanks for, thanks for being on StarTalk Radio.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me.

• 46:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And for Skyping in. Maybe we can get you on on another broadcast.

• 46:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure, anytime.

• 46:47Chuck Nice?

  Keep up the good work!

• 46:48Speaker 04

  See ya.

• 46:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, and we are all in that nineteen million, except for Chuck.

• 46:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You've been listening to StarTalk Radio. Chuck, thanks for being on. Elise, thanks for coming in via Skype. The man himself, Bill Nye, as always.

• 47:01Bill Nye?

  So good to be had.

• 47:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thanks, thanks. I, I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you to keep looking up.