A COSMOS Conversation with Steven Soter

Worlds collide when Neil deGrasse Tyson puts on his StarTalk Radio hosting hat to interview astrophysicist Dr. Steven Soter, co-writer of the new COSMOS series on FOX hosted by Neil.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, you're a personal astrophysicist. I work at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, where I serve as director of the Hayden Planetarium there. And I got with me in studio as my co-host Chuck Nice.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Hey Neil.

• 0:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Good to see you.

• 0:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Good having you, always.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  You know it, man.

• 0:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You rock the house, you know. You have a whole fan community of people who like hearing you just on StarTalk.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  That is true. And I love those people.

• 0:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That means they don't like you anywhere else.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 0:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what that means.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Yes. And most of them are my family, but hey, what can we say?

• 0:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So today, we're gonna talk about Cosmos, the show.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Finally, it's gonna happen here on StarTalk.

• 1:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm a little uncomfortable, because like, I'm in it, you know, but...

• 1:15Speaker 01

  You are Cosmos.

• 1:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I'm in Cosmos, alright. So what I figured, what we should do, so it's not gonna be about me as host, let's find out how Cosmos got made.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, you as host, gotta say, okay, don't take this the wrong way, I was a little surprised, man, you do a great job.

• 1:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were surprised I did a good job?

• 1:35Speaker 01

  No, you really do a good job.

• 1:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll take that in the schoolyard after, we'll pick that up.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great show.

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I thought one way to get some insight into this is to bring into studio, one of the co-writers of Cosmos, a friend and colleague, Dr. Steve Soter. Steve? Hi Neil. Welcome to, welcome to StarTalk. Thank you, it's good to be here. Yeah, yeah, excellent. And, so, he's not just any writer, by the way, first of all, he co-wrote the first two space shows in the reopening of the New Rose Center for Earth and Space, back in 2000, where the Hayden Planetarium is. So he not only did that, alright, now you keep parting the curtains, and you go back, and then you find out, that he was one of the co-writers of the original Cosmos.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whoa.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Steve, that is highly impressive, my friend. You cannot nod though, Steve. This is radio.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  I know you're being humble. I was like, that's highly impressive. He's like, nodding his head like, yes Chuck, yes it was.

• 2:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but as a matter of fact, right? Okay, Chuck can can vocalize your miming, I guess, if what it is. So, so he's got, he's genetically linked to the beginning, and the three original writers were Carl Sagan himself, of course, and Andrian, and Steve Soter. And I think we can get Andrian on another show. And so we get the two co-writers to talk about just the genesis of Cosmos.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  That is fascinating, man. I mean, literally, it's so cool to have, and I, please don't take this the wrong way, but you're like living history, man. You know, don't, please don't take it like that.

• 3:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's the thousand-year-old man.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  See, I knew it would come out wrong. I know it would come out wrong.

• 3:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Anytime someone says, "Don't take this the wrong way," they're gonna take it the wrong way. All right? They're gonna take it the right way, which is the wrong way. All right? So, so Steve, I'm gonna start off, Steve. Steve, your colleague of mine, you're a trained scientist, I happen to know, that your PhD thesis involved planet orbits and stabilities and this sort of thing, if I remember correctly. You're a solar system type guy.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that's fine. It's not, you can stretch out into the rest of the universe because you're, you're a scientist. But, one of the things that distinguishes Cosmos is how often it references history. And every time I talk to you about some historical thing that happened, "Oh yes, that was the Count and the Duke of Earl of this, and he had a budget, that he made a telescope that had this lens configuration." I said, "Where are you getting this?" So, what is, what accounts for this whole background in history that you have?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I've just been reading history of science forever, and I love the stuff.

• 4:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so Chuck's translation is, he doesn't own a television.

• 4:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Steve, wait, I got, just to put this on the table. Do you own a television?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Uh, no.

• 4:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, see? So, when you're not watching TV, you're reading.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  There you go, kids. There you go, kids. There's, there's your key. There's your key to success in life. Academic success. Throw your television out.

• 4:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, down the stairs, right. So, you just read, but you could be reading, you could be reading anything.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but history of science is one of my favorites. These are wonderful stories. And also, it's a way to look back and see when these discoveries were made, what people didn't know. And to think-

• 4:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what they thought they knew.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  And what they thought they knew, and to realize that we're in the same position.

• 4:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We, modern people.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  So, are you saying psychologically, we respond to science the same way as people did in fourteen hundred?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Well, I'm saying that they didn't know a lot, and they thought that they knew certain things.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  We're in the same position.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Same thing. So, the more we know, the more we know we don't know.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 5:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, but, wait, wait, just wait, just to-

• 5:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Science does progress, alright? So, so, we know stuff today that we didn't know in fourteen hundred.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 5:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But we now know enough to know more stuff that we don't know, that we wouldn't even have known to ask in fourteen hundred. Is that fair, Steve?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Yes, but also, reading what was happening back then, knowing what we know now, puts a whole different light on it.

• 5:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, what you're saying is, it makes you a little more humble in modern times.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  About how seriously you will treat somebody's idea.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yes, and also, we realize that a lot of what we think we know now is certainly wrong. But we don't know which parts are wrong.

• 5:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Steve, that's not very encouraging. You, you make, you make this profound declaratory statement. There are things that we think are true today that will surely be wrong.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  But that's what the history of science tells us, and I can't tell you what those things are. We're gonna have to find out, but we have a method to do it. It's an error correcting method of investigation, by, by interrogating nature itself. And it works very well. It's gotten us this far. It's gotten us where we can be using these electrons to send this conversation at the speed of light to a large audience.

• 6:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  These electrons, like he's buds with, with the electricity. Right, these electrons, you got your electrons? I got mine.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I want so, all right, so not only is the facts of history, but there's the psychology of what's going on in the surrounding towns, the politics, the scientists themselves. And you dug all this up with Ann and made storytelling out of it. Yes. No, that's awesome because I knew some of the stories because I do a little bit of reading a history myself, but not, nothing like the depths that you guys went into. And so there I am, as I tell these stories. Right. People say, oh, look at that Tyson, what a historian. No. Right. It should be, I should carry the credits with me as I'm reading it. Yeah. As, as I'm telling it, but no, these are great. So it's not just the facts of the history, it's the culture of the history. Yes. And that's, so that works. So you know what I wonder, Steve, when we come back from the break, I'm going to ask

• 7:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  you, is there some story going on now, which you think in a hundred years would make a good story in the cosmos of the year 2100? Yeah. When, yeah. Look at that. Yeah. Look at Steve, his wheels are, I see, he is, he is churning away right now. That's a good question. He doesn't just use wheels, he uses gears. Okay. Wheels, that's, that's old, that's old school. Yeah. You turn a wheel into a machine, you got a gear. You get gears, right. You got that? I see, I see the gears and cogs at work there. There you go. When we come back, more StarTalk Radio. Topic today, the making of Cosmos.

• 8:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk Radio. I'm your personal astrophysicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson. And do I have a personal comedian? Yes, you do. It's your, your personal stand-up comic, Chuck Nice. Chuck Nice, there you go. There you go. We've got in studio, a friend and colleague, Steven Soter, who's an astrophysicist, who co-wrote Cosmos. Awesome. And you might say, which Cosmos, the original or this one? Ask me that. Which one? The original or this one? Both.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  My mind is blown. Did you hear that small explosion?

• 8:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so Steve, um, could you tell me the, I mean, I've, I've written, I know how to write. I mean, we're all literate folks in this room, uh, but I would have never felt comfortable writing for television. What is the, what's different here?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Well, you have to write to, it's a visual medium. You have to see what you're writing to, and you have to compress it enormously because there's not a whole lot of time to be expansive as you are on the written page of literature.

• 9:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So on a written page, words can go wherever you want and you can be all flowery.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Right. But here you're constrained by the medium.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Now, how do you do that without sacrificing the information that you're disseminating?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  It's hard work to distill it to get the essentials.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  If you say so yourself.

• 9:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. So if you, so part of your challenge is, but you have to know how effective the visual medium is as its own conveyor.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  You have to be able to imagine what you're going to be seeing that will accompany what you're writing.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 9:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so you, this went through your head when you co-wrote our first two space shows in the new Planetarium, presumably?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, I was imagining what these scenes would look like, and in some cases, they actually turned out to look much better than I imagined.

• 9:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that's okay. That's good. That means you don't have a good imagination.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  It means there were some very clever people on the, on the visual end.

• 9:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. It's part of the collaboration of making, making this stuff work. Right. I mean, I, one of my, for me, you know, I don't, I'm an interloper in the TV world, really. I'm, I'd rather just stay in my lab. And you see me on TV, but when I'm there getting filmed, I see the hundred people making the product. You know, the producers, the gaffers, the lighting people, the directors, the associate, the assistant director, the, you know, the hair, makeup.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Don't forget craft services.

• 10:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Craft services.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Very, very important. Very important.

• 10:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I got all trim and slim for the series. After the series, I was 20 pounds. They're feeding you all the time. All, all the time. Now, Steve, this, as you know, this show aired on Fox. You can't get more mainstream than Fox. This is not PBS. This is not the science channel in the, in the extra package for, for, for, for cable. This is mainstream primetime. So at some point, one would have an expectation that you are plugged into pop culture if you're communicating with pop culture. So how would you rate your pop culture index?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  About zero.

• 10:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you not Kardashian fluent?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  No, no, it stops at about nineteen forty. I'm interested in pop culture before about that period, but not much afterwards.

• 11:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, okay, okay. So, so that means the conversations you and I have about pop culture, that's your only lifeline.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't know I was that important to you. Um, okay, so, uh, in terms of, but language and, I mean, you're an astute listener and observer of current events and things.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I'm, I, I keep up with the news.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  So then how do you, uh, in turn, take that and present something like Cosmos, my, here's the thing that's great about it, writing wise. Um, I love it, and I'm a person who's, uh, loves science and is curious about science and wants to learn. My eight-year-old son watches it with me. He loves it. So now, how is it that you're able to talk to two disparate audiences who are, I was going to say-

• 11:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you say desperate or disparate?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Uh, disparate.

• 11:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Disparate.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Uh, but two disparate audiences, uh, I said it again, disparate audiences who are, hopefully, one is intellectually more advanced than the other.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Well, we, we did that in the planetarium shows. Our audience is everyone, from children to PhD scientists, and we had to find a way to, to provide something that everyone would, uh, would like, and it's hard work. All I can tell you is it's hard work.

• 12:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but, yeah, but I, sure, but to do it in a way that the people who are in the know don't feel like they're wasting their time or that you're talking down to them, and obviously the young kids are not going to get everything, right? But there's, there's some-

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Well, I've had a lot of experience talking to people, uh, throughout my career, I mean, people of all ages and learning, uh, how, what they, what they respond to, what, what, uh, what they understand and, and what would be over their heads.

• 12:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so there's so things that cannot be over people's head, but you can still appreciate on different levels.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  And the challenge is really to try to still get to the heart of the subject, to not overs to not oversimplify it, to connect with with with the the real depths of the subject, but convey that in a way that people can understand.

• 13:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I think that's the ticket right there, because if you keep if you stay true to the theme, true to the idea, then the idea comes through no matter how you shape it.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Right, that that makes sense, yeah. So you're not really allowing the audience to drive what you're writing, you're allowing the subject to be the key, the key focus, and then saying, okay, now how do I make that work for this person, that person?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, now, this is the Cosmos is in the great tradition of Carl Sagan. Obviously, he was the host of the original, and so awesome shoes to fill if I serve as host, in as serving as host. But Carl Sagan had a way with words and a way of he had a bedside manner. And so we all know Carl's influence on us, but what was your influence on Carl Sagan back then if you were co-writer of the original Cosmos?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Well, I came up with some of the ideas that got into the original Cosmos. I began, actually, as a researcher and and discussing ideas. He liked them and said, why don't you be a co-writer? So I did, and I one of the

• 14:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody gets a start somehow, you know, somebody say, hey, come on in, and right, that's good, that's good.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  So one thing I remember is that in the original Cosmos series, the 13th final episode, Carl wanted it to be about colonization of space. And I think I convinced him that it shouldn't be about that. This was during the the heating up of the Cold War, and I thought it should be

• 14:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  1980?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, late 1970s, that it was more important to be talking about the survival of civilization, without which there would not be any human future in space. And so I proposed that, and he He agreed, and the final episode of the thirteen was about the threat of nuclear war and the survival of civilization.

• 14:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the title of it was?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Was "Who Speaks for Earth?", which I suggested.

• 14:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Who speaks for Earth?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  And who ultimately ended up speaking for us, Steve? Just a little curious.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  It's all of humanity.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I got you.

• 15:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. And one of the great things Cosmos achieved then, and I think continues to achieve, is not thinking of the world in terms of countries, but thinking of the world in terms of humans as a species.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As shepherds of civilization.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's the vision of what Carl called "the pale blue dot", looking at the Earth from a distance in space and realizing that this is our only home in space and we all share it, and we have to preserve it.

• 15:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, I think it's great, and as co-writer of the original series, you must feel proud about that. I mean, that was a highly influential...

• 15:37Speaker 02

  I felt gratified.

• 15:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, having some influence on it.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Dude, you are way too humble. I'm just telling you right now.

• 15:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I felt gratified.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I felt gratified. I've been like, "You're damn right I was proud." Look at what I did. It was awesome.

• 15:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, did you collaborate with Carl Sagan thereafter?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Not really scientifically. We were good friends and spent a lot of time sharing ideas, but only a couple of brief scientific articles that we wrote together.

• 16:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Scientific articles?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, cool. So, scientific collaborators as well as...

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not much on the science side, actually.

• 16:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, okay. I was just wondering, because I mean, we've been friends a while, but some places I'd never gone with you conversationally.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  I have a question now. Who's a better friend, Neil or Carl Sagan?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  I love them both.

• 16:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go. So, your co-author is Andrian.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were sole co-author with Andrian in "The New Cosmos". You were one-third Z's co-author with her, or in whatever... There were three co-authors in the original. So, she's not a scientist at all, but she feels the universe, and she's clearly scientifically literate. So, many will ask, and I even ask as well, how would you... What was the division of labor between the two of you?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  I think she brings to it the heart, why it matters, why you should feel, why this should touch you. And I bring to it, I think, the science. And...

• 17:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And by the way, just, just, just so I can get this, the, the three of us started out as co-riders, right?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 17:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just for like a couple of days. And it was clear, I was there with them, it was clear, they were a dyad, they were riding dyad, and I was just like a third wheel on a perfectly functioning two-wheeled bicycle. So, I pulled away and they just took, their ship sailed.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 17:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, it's okay, I interrupted Steve, go on. Yeah, so she, she brings the heart?

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and, and I think I bring the, the critical scientific view, and it was this, this sort of dynamic synergy between, you might call it left brain, right brain. And that's, that's what honed the material and, and had both emotion and intellect in equal measure.

• 17:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Dynamic synergy.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 17:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, man. And, and so, so what are the two in equal measure again?

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Emotion and intellect.

• 18:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh. There you go, that's, I have one of those. I think that should be the center of every future, every house of future learning. Absolutely. Emotion and intellect. When we come back on StarTalk Radio, more of my interview in studio with Steve Soter, co-writer of Cosmos. We're back on StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here with Chuck Nice, in studio, my co-host.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we've got here, live, my friend and colleague, Steve Soter, co-author of Cosmos, not only the original, but the current one. Impressive. And he's co-author with Andrian, Andrian also serves as executive producer, and I think she even gets a director credit for one or two of the episodes. We're gonna get her on another StarTalk. Oh, that's, oh, that's great. Stay tuned for that. That's great. I got Steve, my buddy, here right now, and, so Steve, you co-wrote the original Cosmos, who first said billions and billions? We, inquiring minds want to know now.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Johnny Carson.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  In a spoof on Carl.

• 19:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, as he spoofed Carl?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I saw some of those, where he wore the wig and the-

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yes, turtleneck sweater.

• 19:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The turtleneck.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Billions and billions.

• 19:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Billions, okay, so Carl only just ever said billions.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Carl said it doesn't make any sense to say billions and billions, it is very imprecise.

• 19:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would make two billion, right? Billions and three billion, right, so, okay, so, but what, so the issue here is Carl said it so many times.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  He said billions with a very-

• 19:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Billion.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Precise B.

• 19:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  B- billion, so he said it so often-

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That to the listener, he, it was just billions and billions.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Billions and billions.

• 19:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Gobs and gobs.

• 19:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's, that's the mathematically illiterate version of that, right? Um, did you, dude, I saw some comic, forgive me for not remembering the, the illustrator, he said Carl Sagan as a child, "Look at all the stars, there must be hundreds of them."

• 20:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, uh, so Steve, a couple, a couple of things, the, uh, what's different about the current cosmos, of course, it's on commercial TV and has commercial breaks.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What did you have to, as you co-wrote the original, which appeared on PBS, no commercials.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This had commercials.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was that frustrating, was it fun, what, what was it?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Well, we had to write it in, in blocks that could be separated for commercial breaks, so that-

• 20:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, that can't be bad-

• 20:35Speaker 02

  That wasn't hard.

• 20:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If it parcels-

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  People's attention span.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, I mean, I say it can't be bad, but was it hard or easy?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't hard at all, but, uh, I think the, the impact of those commercials, though, is, is, uh, distracting, to say the least.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  A lot of people are complaining about them.

• 20:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Says the man who doesn't own a television.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 20:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Look, man, commercials make the world go round, right? Yeah, you, you, you can't really not eat the cake that you have.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, well, that's, yeah, you need the commercials, but, you know, that just gives you an opportunity to, uh, put out a DVD.

• 21:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, there you go.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  That's all.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yep, looking forward to that.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, what was the urge to put a historical vignette in every single episode?

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Well, these are great stories, and they're human stories. And they also show something of the process.

• 21:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's your favorite among these stories?

• 21:22Speaker 02

  I think, well, I like a lot of them, but uh...

• 21:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You pick your children, yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Fraunhofer.

• 21:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Fraunhofer.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  The man who discovered the spectral lines.

• 21:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was episode five, I think.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Correct. Correct, and when we began researching his story, we discovered that he was an orphan who was saved by a prince. So there is already sort of a fairy tale feeling to this story.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  And then he goes on to, to become head of, of an optical research department in, in a, in a monastery in Germany, which turns out to be the place where the music of Carmina Burana was discovered. And then we use that in a wonderful scene with a, an organ and making the, uh, explaining how sound waves work and how they're analogues for light waves.

• 22:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, might I add, I, I played that organ.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Did you really?

• 22:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the show.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Was that really you playing?

• 22:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, that was me.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  I was impressed.

• 22:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, not the Carmina Burana part.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Before that.

• 22:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I, I had a little Bach minuet, which we, I think we later learned was not Bach. But it's a little classical minuet. It's all I remember from my piano lessons when I was 12 years old.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  And you got a chance to put that in the show?

• 22:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I got a little bit of it in the show. And so, but, uh, so, so you, you loved the, the, the fairy tale aspect of it?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yes, and it was true.

• 22:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It has the benefit, added benefit of being true. Plus, it's the birth of astrophysics.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yes, the marriage of physics and astronomy.

• 22:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is, and that, yeah.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, okay, so that...

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Putting a prism in front of a, a, a telescope.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And so I'm interested, like, like you just said, he was an orphan that was, uh, basically, uh, taken in by a prince.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  And that leads me to inquire, is, how important is money in science historically?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Well, support, patronage is, is important. I mean, there's a lot of brilliant people out there, but the, they've never had the opportunity to express it because they didn't have support, they didn't have patronage. It was just an accident that Fraunhofer got that.

• 23:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know Chuck, we dodged a bullet back when Herschel discovered, he was the first to discover a planet ever, and he discovered planet Uranus. And, but his funder was, he was King George, right? King, the same George of the American Revolution, King George, the George the Third. And so for a while, he was calling that, he's called George's Star, he was calling.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  George's Star.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  That's right. The planets then would have been Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  And George.

• 23:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And George, right. So, yeah, so folks, those money funding this stuff, right?

• 23:44Speaker 02

  The colleagues did not go for it.

• 23:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Put the Medici's, I think, helped out.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Right, the Medici and stars is what Galileo named the moons of Jupiter when he discovered.

• 23:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Somebody's naming it after the rich folk.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  After the rich people.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that didn't last either.

• 23:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It didn't last, yeah.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, so, poor people made very few contributions unless they were found, discovered by rich people, that's what you're saying.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Often, yeah.

• 24:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, that, so we don't know what discoveries lay unrevealed.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the minds of poor people.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  But we know that they will, they will not come out of a poor neighborhood. Most likely.

• 24:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Unless someone discovers them.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Like, there'll never be a star called Bodega.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Fraunhofer was, was discovered because the house that he was a servant in collapsed on him, and he, and he was rescued, the prince and future king of Bavaria was there and took an interest in him, but, and wrote the brilliant line, "How many others do we leave in the rubble?"

• 24:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When we come back, more on the making of cosmos, right here on StarTalk Radio.

• 25:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck Nice. With me.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 25:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Always good to have you Chuck.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Always a pleasure to be here.

• 25:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we're talking about the writing of Cosmos.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The original and the current one that I happened to host, I host that.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I can't believe I'm actually sitting here with the show Cosmos. That's great.

• 25:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we have in studio, my friend and colleague Steve Soter, co-author of the original, co-author of the current one, and co-author with Andrian, we're gonna get here on another, her and another StarTalk. Steve, let me ask, in the original, the historical bits were, they had actors doing them.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so you had to write some script that might have worked in its day, perhaps. In the current one, that's all been swapped out with animation. So was that a different, that might have been different for you?

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Well, when we wrote it, we didn't know whether it would be animation or not. In fact, that was a decision that was made after the first drafts of all 13 episodes were completed. So we were writing, I think, with actors in mind.

• 25:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With actors in mind, and so, do you have any opinions about the animations?

• 26:01Speaker 02

  I think some of it works and some of it, for me, doesn't, but that's just a personal.

• 26:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you have mixed feelings about it?

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I had mixed feelings initially, and then it just grew on me. And now I look forward to it every single time. I think part of my resistance was because I was accustomed to the actor with the British accent and the glued-on mutton chops, and I was expecting that because that's all I was ever been given. And, but when you animate it, you can, you actually have a little bit more freedom.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 26:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the first episode with Bruno, dreaming, these floating in the universe.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're not gonna get your mutton chop glued-on actor to float in the universe. Not on the budget, at least, so.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  And I have to say that, you know, having a young child that watches with me, the animation really does capture them. So, you know, and to me, it's great to have.

• 26:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You keep using your kids as the excuse that you like animation.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That you like cartoons.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Isn't that funny that it works out like that? What's your excuse for Cartoon Network, Chuck?

• 27:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exactly. Yeah, Steve.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  In the first episode of the, at the end of the cosmic calendar, which is the history of the universe, from the big bang to the present, the last fourteen seconds of that cosmic year represents all of human history. That was animated and that worked brilliantly. I thought that's where animation really soars.

• 27:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because I narrate what went on in those last fourteen seconds from the period where you had Jesus and Buddha and Muhammad and the invention of science.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and it's a rapid, it's a rapid read and it had great intensity if I remember going through that.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  That's perfect for animation.

• 27:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. All right. That's cool. So, but in the current cosmos, there's an entire episode given unto evolution. And of course, evolution was treated in the original. So...

• 27:44Speaker 02

  A whole episode also.

• 27:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A whole episode. Could you compare and contrast the reactions that society has given to it? Because we live in America, land of the people who pick and choose their science. So, for what they want to believe or not. So, what, what was the reactions from then and now?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  I don't remember any, any negative reactions from back then. But there's more of it now.

• 28:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really?

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't remember. There may have been, but definitely more now. Uh, yes.

• 28:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So, these would be fundamentalist religious folk who are uncomfortable with what science says about the origins of humans.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, okay, maybe it's because, maybe there was a, a blowback, but it was in regional newspapers that you didn't have access to and now you have access to everything?

• 28:25Speaker 02

  That could be.

• 28:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Could that be some of it?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  That could be, yeah. We're hearing it all now.

• 28:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, selection effect there, yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  And is there quite the backlash from people who believe that evolution is whatever they believe it is? Because I'm not sure what you could believe it is other than what it is. But do you have those people being angry, like literally, you know?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  I guess there are people that are upset about it.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, well, okay. And so, how do you feel about evolution, Steve?

• 28:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's your opinion about it?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  What's your opinion on it? Seriously?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I just want to get an official record.

• 28:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get him on the record, yeah, yeah. Steve, do you have a monkey's uncle or what?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  It's the basis of biology. Very little in biology makes any sense without this foundational theory. It's like the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. I mean, it's absolutely fundamental to the subject and it's overwhelmingly demonstrated by the evidence.

• 29:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but how much of it was you just trying to stick it to the fundamentalist?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Not at all. We just wanted to make the case. This is the evidence. You don't have to accept it, but there it is.

• 29:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, well, that's fair enough.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  And so therefore, thank you for your permission. I don't accept it.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  That's fine.

• 29:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Steve, you just gave him permission to not accept it. Now I gotta deal with him. After you leave, I'm gonna have to deal with him.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  No, no, you don't have to accept it. It's just that also, if you don't accept it, that's not the version that should be taught in the public schools. That's why it's a problem today.

• 29:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Teach it somewhere else is the point. Right, right. Because if they weren't trying to knock down the doors of the public school, there'd be no issue here.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  No, people can believe what they want.

• 30:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In a free country, that's kind of what the point is, right?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yes, and that kind of is the problem, though. People can believe what they want.

• 30:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, the problem is not that they can believe what they want, is that they believe what they want and they're in charge. See?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Boom, I stand corrected.

• 30:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. When we come back, more of my interview with my friend and colleague Steve Soter, the co-writer of Cosmos.

• 30:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here, Chuck Nice there.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 30:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If we're all here, we must not be all there.

• 30:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just in case you hadn't heard that one before, Steve Soter, co-writer of Cosmos, thanks for coming into StarTalk.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Thanks for inviting me.

• 31:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For this. The original Cosmos was 34 years ago, and there's been some scientific advances since then. As co-writer, along with Andrian, what is your mix of new science you knew you had to put in, new science that you're a little scared to put in because it might get old, or might be shown to be wrong, and just how do you, how do you pick and choose?

• 31:25Speaker 02

  I think the original series, we didn't go to the cutting edge of science for the most part, because we knew that some of that would turn out to be wrong, and that would date the series. In the present Cosmos, that's the same policy. We're, for the most part, we don't...

• 31:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, did you know Cosmos had a policy?

• 31:40Speaker 02

  I did not.

• 31:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Go on.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Well, it's risky to go to the very cutting edge of science, because some of those things are going to be shown to be wrong. That will give, that will date the series. So for the most part, we pull back from that, and tell the, the, the more well-established and important elements of science.

• 32:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so of the new things that you could still get to pull back on, what is new, undreamt of in 1980, that you felt important enough to put in, in the mix of storytelling?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Was Pluto alive in 1980, Steve?

• 32:12Speaker 02

  The non-planetary status of Pluto is touched on. That's not that important. The discovery of the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, that's, that's a big one, and that, that we did...

• 32:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got that in there, yeah, yeah. And anything else just off the top of your head?

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Well, I think the importance of dark matter also, that, that's become much more well-established, and there's an, a stronger observational basis for it now, than there was 35 years ago.

• 32:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh huh, uh huh. And the fact that there's a thousand planets discovered?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, that's a big one. Yes. And this was something that Carl would...

• 32:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What do you mean, "Oh, yes"? That's a...

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Carl would have been thrilled, of course, because he, he, he intuited...

• 32:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because he's from one of those planets.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yes, well, he knew, he knew that this was going to be the case, and now we have the observational proof. Planets are plentiful, they outnumber the stars.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 32:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that's in fact, an exact line from the script.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 33:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Making worlds is what galaxies do.

• 33:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Another exact line.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Wow, that sounds like something out of a rap video. Like, like a cosmic rap song. Making worlds is what galaxies do.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  That would be cool.

• 33:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Cosmos rap.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I gotta ask you, what was your favorite thing to write for it?

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a tough one. I mean, there's many, but there's maybe one line.

• 33:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What line?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  It's hard to know how much of a line is described to one of the two writers because we collaborated on a lot of them. But it was something like, uh, we'll need imagination to make this journey.

• 33:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But imagination alone is not enough.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Because the reality of nature far exceeds anything that we can imagine.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Wow.

• 33:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's a paraphrase of J.B.S. Haldane.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Back when the word queer meant odd.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Uh, odd, okay.

• 33:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The universe is not only queer than we have imagined, it may be queer than we can imagine.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 33:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 33:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, it's good. So, and what was the toughest, just the angriest thing you had to write? Can you, you had to just get through it and it was uncomfortable and you didn't like it, but you knew you had to do it?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  I don't remember anything like that, actually. I mean, it was all hard work, but...

• 34:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's been fully brainwashed.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yes, he has.

• 34:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The brainwashing program has worked.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  He drank the Kool-Aid. He's just, "No, there was nothing hard about it."

• 34:14Speaker 02

  No, it was hard. It was hard.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Not unpleasant.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  It wasn't unpleasant. No.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. Well, that's cool. So, um, Steve, I count you among the ranks of educators in the world. And you gotta strike a balance between preaching, maybe, and educating and just having a conversation. And on a, with a mouthpiece such as Cosmos, on the platform that it arrived on, coming out of, out of me, you put all this together, and I don't want to preach to anybody. I want to just bring people along on a conversation. So what's going on in your head as you split this out?

• 34:50Speaker 02

  I, I want to avoid preaching. I want to just present the evidence. Because preaching is, is really, in some sense, is disrespectful of the audience.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  See, that's the problem with science right there. Okay? You guys are too worried about presenting facts and, and evidence and not beating people over the head like Bill O'Reilly.

• 35:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Apparently it works. There are a whole lot of people doing a lot of preaching and...

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And it goes over very well.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  But the strength of the evidence is so compelling. If you, if you can...

• 35:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You want to let the evidence do the preaching?

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's another line in your rap song you're composing right now.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Making worlds is what galaxies do. We present the evidence just for you.

• 35:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got you. I understand.

• 35:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have you seen the meme with the Incredible Hulk, except he's the credible Hulk? And it says, "You won't like me when I'm angry. I get angry if you do not back up your statements with evidence."

• 35:46Speaker 01

  That's pretty funny.

• 35:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The credible Hulk.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  The credible Hulk.

• 35:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Steve, um, you got any projects coming up you're thinking about, or? I know, we, we talk a lot about climate change. You, you're, you got the-

• 35:58Speaker 02

  I'm teaching a course on climate change now, and I've been thinking of-

• 36:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At, at New York University.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  I don't believe in climate change, Steve.

• 36:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You gave him the option earlier.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  You gave me an option earlier. I'm opting out of climate change as well.

• 36:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I gotta deal with him.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Right. You know why? I just bought Exxon stock.

• 36:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, so Steve, keep up the good work out there. It's always great to have you there.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  It's great to be here.

• 36:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And great to collaborate with you over all these years. And, uh, we'll find some more stuff to work on and, and bring it to the public. You've been listening to StarTalk Radio. I thank Chuck Nice for being with me here.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  It's my pleasure.

• 36:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And people can tweet, tweet at you. Where, where Chuck be at?

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Chuck be at, at Chuck Nice Comic.

• 36:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  At Chuck Nice Comic, fine. Uh, I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson for StarTalk Radio, uh, bidding you, as always, to keep looking up.