Why Everyone Needs an Estate Plan (and How to Avoid a Surprise ACA Subsidy Bill) SB1916

Amy Wilson and her husband did nearly everything right on the road to financial independence, and the one task they kept postponing turned out to matter most. She shares what happened when a sudden loss met an unfinished estate plan, how she rebuilt her financial life on her own, and what she’d want you to do this week. Then Joe Saul-Sehy and OG explain how a change in IRS guidance can turn marketplace premium help into a bill for early retirees and side hustlers, with a quick round of income detective to show what counts. What You’ll Walk Away With Why “we’re married, so it all goes to each other” isn’t a planHow beneficiary designations and default rules can pull in different directions across accountsWhy your state already has an estate plan for you, and how to find out what it saysWhat mattered, and what didn’t, in the first hours after a lossWhether to do nothing with your money for a while or dive into the details, and how to tell which fits youWhat it’s like to go from saving to spending overnight, and why a money nerd hired an advisorThe small clues that told her an advisor was the right oneA simple allowance system that keeps spending steady and leaves room for big plansWhy advance premium help is an estimate, not a price guaranteeThe change that removed the cap on repayments, the income line that can cost you the entire credit, and what to recalculate before year-endWhy This Matters Now Plans get interrupted, and the paperwork we postpone is usually the paperwork that matters most. Year-end is when open enrollment arrives and good intentions pile up, which makes it a natural time to finish the estate documents and recheck your income estimate. If you worry about a mistake you can’t undo, this episode treats both as checklist items you can finish, not worries to carry around. From the Basement Doug’s trivia is about cacao beans as currency, which leads him to try paying for dinner at The Sizzler with a bag of chocolate chips. Then OG explains his Halloween policy of yogurt only, with a granola exception. Resources Mentioned Repayment caps eliminated for excess advance payments of the Premium Tax Credit https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/eitc-central/repayment-caps-eliminated-for-excess-advance-payments-of-the-premium-tax-credit: IRS guidance on the changeQuestions and answers on the Premium Tax Credit https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/individuals-and-families/questions-and-answers-on-the-premium-tax-credit: IRS answers on how reconciliation worksHealthCare.gov https://www.healthcare.gov: where to update your income estimate with the marketplaceCamp FI https://choosefi.com/fi-community-events/: in-person gatherings for the financial independence community, where Amy is a regular See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  This message comes from Betterment. Dan Egan, VP of Behavioral Finance and Investing, explains the benefits of automated dividend reinvestment.

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• 1:21Speaker 03

  So you'll pick me up tonight at 7:45? Well, no, I got a few things to take care of first, but why don't we make it quarter to eight?

• 1:30Speaker 03

  Stop it.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Okay, 7:45.

• 1:40Speaker 04

  Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's The Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 1:54Speaker 04

  I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and what happens when the plan falls apart? What do you do next? Today's stacker, Amy Wilson, is here to share her real-life horror story to help you make good money decisions. Focused on retiring early or notching up that side hustle? In our headline segment, we'll help you avoid owing a bunch of money at the end of this year. How? We'll explain how healthcare rules work and are a-changing. And then I'll share some deliciously rich trivia you'll want to pass out to all your neighbors. And now, two guys who are a lot like a box of chocolates. One's a little nutty and the other's mostly just air inside.

• 2:36Speaker 04

  It's Joe and O G G G G G.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  Well, Doug, we're going to be filling that air with chocolate in just a couple of days. Hey, everybody. Happy Halloween week. Welcome back to The Stacking Benjamin Show. We're so happy you're here. Sit back, relax. Grab a piece of paper, though, because, man, do we have a story that Amy Wilson's bringing. And then, B, if you've got a side hustle or you're thinking about fire financial independence, retire early, you're going to retire early. You don't want to get on the wrong side of some changes the IRS just announced to the ACA. A little piece of that. We're going to talk taxes in the second half of today's show. But before the first half of today's show, the very first thing we do is we say hello to my partner in crime here, Mr. OG. How are you, man?

• 3:29Speaker 06

  I'm doing great. Thanks for asking.

• 3:31Speaker 05

  So how does it work at the OG household? Do you get the candy that you want and then hope there's a bunch of leftovers?

• 3:39Speaker 06

  I believe we discussed this on Monday. We only allow Greek yogurt as candy. You can put any fruit. We do allow for Halloween, a little smattering of granola. So it's a big deal. Kids go crazy.

• 3:54Speaker 05

  Well, one thing that we're not playing around with is today's interview. Amy Wilson is a woman that I got to meet at a Camp Fy. She was actually helping Steven Boyer by running Camp Fy. And I got to hear this incredible story that she has agreed very bravely to share with us on the show today because life didn't go the way that she thought that it was going to. She and her husband had lots of hopes and dreams, and things definitely changed. And on a week when we, on Monday and Wednesday, are talking about the fun of things going bump in the night, we all know that sometimes it's not fun. And there's a lot of planning that really needs to happen and a lot of reexamining your goals that needs to happen. So Amy Wilson coming up next.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  But before that, we have a couple of sponsors who help us make sure we can keep on podcasting. So we're going to hear from them. But even before that, hey, one thing for you, we have a great way for you to get educated about your money besides the podcast after the podcast is over. And you can win a solo stove. It's our Veterans Day giveaway. Sign up for the 201 and you will get financial knowledge in your inbox every week. And you can win a solo stove. If you're a veteran or an active-duty service member, you're going to get three for the solo stove. So this ends next Friday, November 6. So go to stackingbenjamins.com/veteran. And by the way, if you're a current 201 member, you already know how great the 201 newsletter is.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  You're going to get your entry and a chance to refer friends for more. So stackingbenjamins.com/veteran to sign up and a chance to win a solo stove until November 6. Well, you may know that Chaos is the name of the game here in Mom's basement, what with guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends? Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor is made with high-quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients.

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• 7:32Speaker 01

  This message comes from Betterment. Dan Egan, VP of Behavioral Finance and Investing, explains how Betterment takes the time-consuming work out of smart investing.

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• 8:35Speaker 05

  I'm super happy she's on her way down to Mom's basement. I call her the queen of Camp Fy. Amy Wilson is here. How are you?

• 8:43Speaker 03

  I'm good, thanks. Especially after that introduction. Thank you. I feel like I need a crown now.

• 8:49Speaker 05

  The only reason you're here is for you and I to plot your takeover of Steven Boyer's wonderful event. Is it, how is it going to go down, Amy? Are you going to finally tell them one day, listen, we don't need you anymore for Camp Fys? And now you're going to run them all?

• 9:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, word has started to get out. We're supposed to be keeping that quiet.

• 9:07Speaker 05

  We are.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Now it's going to be everywhere.

• 9:11Speaker 05

  Well, we know nobody listens to The Stacking Benjamin Show. It's mom and her friend, and that's it. So we actually aren't here to talk about that. But just for a second while we're on that topic, some people don't know anything about Camp Fy. I think you and I share this love of getting together in person and being able to talk about these awesome topics, one of which we're going to talk about here, you and I today. What originally was the lure for you to go to a Camp Fy?

• 9:36Speaker 03

  So my introduction to Camp Fy was as a speaker, and I was completely terrified. I had never been. None of my friends were going to this particular one. I don't think I'd ever been to Colorado Springs before. I didn't know the setting. So it was very, very intimidating walking in. But I came away from that weekend with like, I want to say at least three genuine new friends and many, many conversations about substantial topics and a lot of just like fun. And so that was in 2024, my first one. And the next year, I went back and I did two. And then the year after that, which is this year, 2026, I did six.

• 10:13Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's been quite an upswing since then, and I've gotten a little involved in the back office stuff. Steven let me put together a Camp Fy New York in New York City last February, and that was incredible.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  My friend Paula Pant was at that one?

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Yes, she definitely was. She was one of our speakers, and it was wonderful to have her there.

• 10:30Speaker 05

  Amy, I mean, we're going to talk about some difficult stuff today on Halloween week. And most of our week is about Halloween experiences that are goofy and fun, right? Chuck Jaffe was here on Monday talking about having games with kids. And on Friday, we're talking about all kinds of funny, campy things on our annual Halloween special with Paula and Jesse and the gang. But today, we're going to be a little bit more serious. But I want to start before any of this serious stuff happen. Take me back to life with your husband, Phil. Like, who were the two of you? What did your life together look like?

• 11:02Speaker 03

  Well, we met at what was then called a hackerspace. Now it's more usually called a makerspace. That tells you a little bit about both of us. It's the kind of place where there's like a metal shop and a wood shop and a craft room and all these big tools and expensive tools that you wouldn't necessarily have either the money or the space for in your own home. But you pay a membership fee and then you get to go to this space and hang out with people who are working on cool things. And it was really fun. So Phil was actually a founding member of the one where we met, which was in the Detroit area. It's called I3 Detroit. And so was one of my high school friends. My high school friend was like, oh, come to our grand opening. You know, we're having the mayor cutting the ribbon, which was like,

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Oh, cool.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  A blowtorch and a chain, I think is how they did it. I went and then I started kind of hanging out there some more. And that's how Phil and I got to know each other. So we were both like very hands-on kind of DIY people. And actually, our first date was, it's very fitting. It was on Halloween. There was a Halloween party that a friend was giving. And I'd been like dropping hints and like in groups of people, you guys should come, la la la. And he was like, yeah, yeah. He didn't really say anything. And then a couple days before I Facebook stalked him, sent him a message with my phone number and was like, in case you change your mind about the Halloween party. And I didn't hear from him. And I was like, Okay, well, that's not going anywhere. And then on Halloween, like

• 12:28Speaker 03

  evening, I'm like getting ready. My phone rings and it's him and he says, Okay, I'm ready to go to the party now. I was like, I didn't know you were coming to this party with me. So I picked him up and he was like, he had all this makeup on. He was dressed like a skeleton and a black suit, like Jack Skellington.

• 12:45Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 12:45Speaker 03

  That was it.

• 12:46Speaker 05

  You ended up then dating and got married after how long?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  We moved in together after about six weeks. So things moved pretty quickly, but then we didn't rush the marriage part. We got engaged after about two years and then married about a year later. So it was about three years.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  When it came to your money, who did what?

• 13:04Speaker 03

  We had like a very graduated system over time. When we were first married, we kept totally separate finances. We came into our marriage with different financial positions. I had some like credit card debt. I had some student debt. He had managed to like buy a home very early and he had more savings than I did. And it just felt very natural to both of us. I wasn't coming in trying to be like, okay, what's yours is now mine. Like we had a much more egalitarian approach to it all. But then over time, you know, years go by and you're buying and selling houses and we moved states. And after a while, things got blurrier and blurrier until we did totally functionally combine. But he did all the money stuff. Like I brought us into FI and FIRE. I found Mr. Money Mustache

• 13:49Speaker 03

  in 2015. And then I was like, Hey, look at this. And we really got into it and really kicked it off and made some massive net worth spreadsheets and projections. And it was great. But he was the one who was deciding like the strategic stuff, like, okay, how much are we holding in, in what kinds of stocks? And, you know, which index funds are we in? And which bank are we going to be with? And which credit cards have the best rewards for us right now? And all that kind of thing. I had different duties in our household that I was better suited to. And so that, that worked pretty well. We had monthly check-ins where we would update the net worth spreadsheet and get excited about how much closer we were to early retirement. And I knew what was going on. I read all of Mr. Money Mustache

• 14:29Speaker 03

  when I first got into it. So it's not like I was totally clueless. But he was an engineer. He was better suited to it. He ran with it and it worked for a really long time.

• 14:39Speaker 05

  Well, let's talk about that because I think there's an important distinction there, right? Because there's this thing couples do all the time. We both know what's going on. But what some people really mean is, well, I know that Phil knows what's going on. But this wasn't you. You knew what was going on and Phil knew what was going on. You just had different people pulling the levers, it sounds like, in different parts of your life.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Totally. Just like he knew that I was making the grocery lists every week and going to the grocery store and cooking the meals. And like, he knew and could trust that like nutritious food would show up on the table and be in the refrigerator. He didn't really have to think about it. But like, conceptually, he knew that it was going on. The same thing was happening on the money side. Like, I trusted him. He knew what was happening. And I kind of knew what was happening. And that was enough for us.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  We talk about these quick money meetings on Stacking Benjamins. And we had Jill Slessinger on. She talked about a monthly meeting, right? Did you guys have an official money meeting, you know, during those years that you know, you're making the big moves?

• 15:37Speaker 03

  We did, yeah. And it was every month, not always on the same day, but it was like after the previous month had wrapped up, then we could really update all the spreadsheets and everything. And it was an exciting meeting, because it was like, look how much more money we have now. Like, we were lucky that this was taking place during a market run up, but also we were in high earning years. So between those two things, those balances were going up every month. So that's part of what made this meeting fun. It was great. It was just like, we were tracking the percentage closer we were to FI, how many more months we had left. It was a really giddy, just fun time.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  You finally made it, right?

• 16:15Speaker 03

  We did.

• 16:16Speaker 05

  Yeah. Do you remember that moment?

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. In our case, it was kind of interesting because my husband had worked for startups and one in particular was acquired. And we knew that this was very likely, but we never knew how much money we could count on from the sale of, of that company. So we were trucking along to FI. I want to say we were like around 83, 84% of the way there. And then all of a sudden, we got this big piece of great news where it was like, oh, hey, you're now at 120%. So it was, um, it was an exciting day. We opened a bottle of champagne.

• 16:53Speaker 05

  That's, that's exciting. That's so fun. But did you feel any different? Did you feel like a different person that day?

• 16:59Speaker 03

  No. In fact, besides the champagne, almost nothing changed. We definitely chatted about like, what now? That was a point at which I decided to go back to school. It had been a goal of mine and was kind of going to fit into our, our FI life. That's what I decided to do. For Phil's part, he had recently started with a company that was new to him. It was in the ed tech, education technology sphere. He really, really loved it. He finally had the manager and the team that he had been grappling for his entire career. He really struggled sometimes with startup culture and with feeling like his work wasn't making the world better. But in education technology, that changed. It

• 17:43Speaker 03

  was a much more mission driven space for him. And the money wasn't as good as, as, you know, the FAANG companies at the time. But he felt better about it and he wasn't ready to give it up yet. So he decided to keep going for a bit. So I went back to school full time. So my time was still occupied. His time was still occupied. We kept having our money meetings and updating our spreadsheets, but not a whole lot about our life changed.

• 18:07Speaker 05

  But it is interesting that you start thinking about the portion of what you do that lights you up, instead of just, what do I have to do to bring in money? Now I'm thinking about, how do I continue to bring in money? But secondarily to what's my purpose? What's my mission? Which is awesome. September 2021 happens. Tell me what happened in September 2021.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. We were in a really great place. By that point, we had been FI for over a year. I was deep into my academic venture and he was still with his company that he was really enjoying. The weather was beautiful. We had bought a house here in Colorado where we live. We rented at first and we weren't kind of sure if we would stay. And then we were like, no, we're putting down roots. Longmont here has such a wonderful FI community. And we'd started to make those connections. He'd also gotten really connected with the local cycling community because he was an avid cyclist. And one of his friends from that group, whose name was Jake, had called him up that week and been like, Hey, you know, the weather's great. And soon, you know, it's Colorado, we're going to get snow

• 19:14Speaker 03

  in a few weeks, probably in the mountains. Do you want to go bike camping up in the mountains, do an overnight trip? And Phil was like, yeah, amazing. Yes. And he just told his boss like, All right, I'm going away for a night. And his boss was great with it. And so before he left, Phil and I went out to lunch. We had one of those conversations that was not unusual for us, but I have gotten the sense, sense that it might be not super common. There's just kind of like a life check in, like, you know, how are we doing? How are you doing? How am I doing? Did we do the right things here? Did we move to the right place? Did we build the right life? And the answers to all of those were yes. We were like, this is, this is so great. Like, our marriage had never

• 19:58Speaker 03

  been stronger. The facts of our lives had never been stronger. We had this massive bank account behind us that made us feel protected from the world and safe. We knew we could take a big hit and still be fine. I had a class later that afternoon. He packed up for his biking trip. I had made scones earlier in the morning and he put them in his bag. And then away they went. And later I got a text that was like, Hey, we're going up Sugarloaf Mountain. I'm not going to have signal and my phone's low on batteries. So I'll talk to you tomorrow. I slept terribly that night. I barely slept, which was strange. And the next morning, I was Brushing my teeth and my phone rang and it was a number I didn't recognize.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  And I had to spit to answer the phone. And the only reason I did answer it is because we were expecting a contractor that day to rough in a new chimney. And I thought it might be them needing directions or something. I didn't want to miss the call. But it wasn't them. It was his friend Jake. And his voice was very, very shaky. And he told me that there had been an accident. And that I should get there. So I'm asking questions and I'm asking like, is he conscious, you know, and, and Jake said he's not conscious. There's an ambulance here and they, they have his heartbeat. And I went to the hospital. And it turned out they had transported Phil there by helicopter.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  I, I'm in the waiting area and two people walk out toward me. One is in scrubs, obviously a medical professional. The other one's in street clothes. And so they take me into a room in the back. And of course, you know, you have a million things running through your mind. But you're hoping it's not what you think this is. And then the doctor came and he started explaining a lot of things that I wasn't really processing at all. And it was still COVID. So I had a mask on. They had masks on, you know, you're kind of seeing each other, but not really. And the doctor just felt like he was just droning on and on. And I interjected at one point and I was probably louder than my normal voice. But I just said, is he gone? And the doctor said, yes, he's gone. And that was it. He died that morning.

• 22:10Speaker 05

  I just can't imagine. I just can't imagine how everything is going so, so, so well. And then all of a sudden.

• 22:19Speaker 05

  The rules change, the world changes. And you're in a completely different space. I don't even know, Amy, what do you do first? What did you do first?

• 22:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. So this is like a scene we've all seen in the movies and you don't know what it would be like if that was you. And in my case, I, I'm a very practical person, probably to a fault. I have an extraordinary ability to disconnect from my emotions if I need to. And so that was kind of what happened. Like I did not break down in tears in that room. I remember blinking a lot, not because like of tears, just like, just from being stunned. And I called his dad from that room, which was a terrible phone call to make. And then I started walking out of the hospital and then I ran into his friend Jake in the vestibule of the hospital.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  And he was like, oh, is he okay? Is he okay? And I was like, no, he's not. And

• 23:18Speaker 03

  those were the first two times I had to deliver this news, right? That this person that, you know, not just me, but lots of people loved had died. In this like shocking and sudden way. But I immediately dove into practicalities for the most part. I drove home and the sheriff came and brought me Phil's phone and his wallet. And also his helmet. He'd been wearing a helmet, but it was split clear up one side. And you're like, you're, you're just not processing this stuff as this is going on, right? My neighbors are coming out and asking why there's a police cruiser in the driveway. I had to make other calls, you know, to his mom, to my family. The organ donation people called me after a little while and that's a,

• 24:02Speaker 03

  that's usually not in the movies, but my husband was an organ donor and that's denoted on his driver's license. So they know to call you. But immediately they launch into this like 30 minute questionnaire that's extraordinarily personal and feels invasive. And you're just in the first minutes and hours of processing this, but it's important. Like he wanted to be an organ donor and I wanted that for him. But I also learned that as his wife, I could, I could dismiss his wishes if I wanted, which I thought was so strange. I could have said like, no, we're not doing this. And that would have ruled the day. So that was interesting. My friend Joe came over. He helped me call mortuary services and we had to arrange cremation and it was a,

• 24:45Speaker 03

  it was a clobbering, stunning time. Is the way I can put it. And I don't think on that day that I thought about money at all. In the days following, I definitely was taking comfort from the fact that whatever this meant in terms of hospital bills or funeral expenses or whatever. I knew that wasn't, that didn't have to worry me. I was very thankful for that. So that did bubble up to the surface relatively early.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  It is wild how in the background, because even when you said that line, it kind of stunned me. About, I didn't think about money that day. I was like, well, duh. But then I realized that in, in the back of our minds though, it always is looming in the background. Either what am I going to do? Or financially, I will be okay. I've got a lot of other areas where I might not be okay. But in terms of the money piece, I'm going to be all right, or I'm, or I'm not going to be all right. I know there's this flurry of things that you have to do right away. And as you said, you're checking boxes. And going through all those things. But then, longtime former financial planner here, Amy, advice I've given people for a long time is

• 25:57Speaker 05

  you then, after that flurry of must do's, you should probably do nothing for a while. You should probably not make any sudden money moves. You've been through this before. I have not been through it before. I've given the advice a lot. Is that actually good advice? That you really shouldn't look at your money? You shouldn't think, you, you should just do the other things that you need to do. And then deal with your money situation later.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  That's a really good question. I have a hunch. It may depend somewhat just on who you are and, and what your personality is like. For me, I ultimately ended up deriving comfort and safety from diving into those financial details. Because I wanted reassurance. Because of the way our financial life had been set up and the way that many people's is, it's sort of fractured. It's like, oh, well, I have this 401k over here. I have a brokerage account here and then he's got his there. Everything is in different pieces and lots of places. And there was something about that in those early days. That I had a strong drive to like consolidate. I wanted to look at, at all the numbers in one place.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  I didn't want to be logging into a million websites. I wanted the safety that comes from seeing that balance and saying like, I will be all right financially, if in no other way. I didn't make changes. I wasn't altering our financial strategy. And so I wasn't like going and investing in real estate where we had never done so aside from our primary residence. I wasn't buying penny stocks, nothing like that. But I was absolutely diving into and familiarizing myself with the details because that felt like a thing I could control to a certain degree. I, I could derive some measure of steadiness from knowing what was going on because before that he was handling the details of the money.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  I had a high level view of what was going on, but now I knew that it was going to come down to me in one way or another. And I, I'm sure partly it was a distraction technique too.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  Well, because money's your jam. I mean, because if money's your jam, you bury yourself in your jam.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 05

  You know, the other thing we talk about a lot here is making sure your beneficiary designations are the way that, that you want them to be. Get the estate done and Phil's the perfect case study of this. You never die at the end of your story. You die right in the middle of it. It happens in the middle. So many cases, our mutual friend, Doc G, Jordan Grumman has talked about people on their deathbed saying, oh, who's going to feed the cat tomorrow? Like, you're not going to be here tomorrow. It's always the middle of, it's always the middle of your story. So estate plan, will beneficiary designations. Did that piece all go smoothly?

• 28:45Speaker 03

  I so wish that I could say that it had, but it did not. And it, it led to a, a significant financial and relational fallout in my life.

• 28:54Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  We were not prepared. Everybody's heard the advice, right? Like you should have a will, you should have a trust, especially as our assets grew. I started to become more uncomfortable. Like we don't have children. We were childless by choice. But as our assets got bigger and bigger, I did think about, usually it was like, what happens if we both die like in a car crash or something? Like what would even happen to all of this money we've just piled up? Like we, we did not have clarity on that. And so I pushed us toward doing something and Phil kept putting it off and, and saying like, you know, whatever, it's fine. Like we're married. What are the chances? We're going to die together. Right? But if one of us dies, everything's fine. Like obviously it just goes to each other and it's okay.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  After his death, um, I think it was maybe five days later is when I started to learn that that was not necessarily true. That just because you're married, it doesn't mean everything goes to your spouse. So that was a big initial shock. Because of the way our financial picture had been set up, you know, some accounts were in his name, some accounts were in my name. Some beneficiaries were designated, some weren't. Some of the ones that weren't, those companies had a default sort of hierarchy. Okay. It goes to the spouse first and then this, and then this. And so they just applied that. And as the spouse, it worked out in my favor. Others were subject to the laws of the state we lived in, which was Colorado.

• 30:22Speaker 03

  What they call intestate succession laws. What it ultimately meant in our case, in my case, was actually that his parents got to walk away with a fairly significant portion of his estate. Because we had neglected to set up either a will or a trust, or to correctly designate our beneficiaries. And initially I had some conversations with them explaining like, he did not will you this money? I just want you to know, like, we were totally caught off guard here. And they were reassuring about it. And they were like, okay, of course, like we want what he would want. And we know you're the best person to know what that is. And you guys had your plan and we don't want to interfere with that. So of course we're not going to take this money. And then later they found out how much it was and then they took the money.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  So as a result, I, I don't have a relationship with my former in-laws anymore. And that was, that was also a big loss, right? We had all experienced this, this terrible tragedy together. And then we, we couldn't be together anymore because I, I couldn't keep them in my life. I didn't. See, I still don't see five years later, a way that I could ever would have done that.

• 31:29Speaker 05

  It is so frustrating to me, the number of times I've seen money just drive people apart. And even in my own family, some financial horrible things that have happened in my family that have driven me from people that otherwise I got along with great before then. I got along with phenomenally well. And then financially, all of a sudden money reaches its ugly head and people do the weirdest

• 31:57Speaker 05

  they do this stuff that you just wouldn't have expected in a million years.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Agree. I think there's a lot of mental gymnastics that go on, right? Ways that people justify why they should get this or why you shouldn't get this. And I just kept coming back to this central fact of like, this is my husband. Like, we have been married at that point for nine years.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  His mom told me, maybe it was like the day after he died. She was crying. She was sobbing to me on the phone and she said, you're the best thing that ever happened to him. It was wonderful to hear, but then it was shocking later for her to do this, to pull this strange move of like, well, you're the best thing that ever happened to him. And I'm going to reach my hand into your pocket right now because what was, what belonged to you and my son, now I think I should get a piece of. So it was awful. It remains awful. And it's different depending on what state you're in, right? Each state has different laws that govern and test dates succession. Prior to living in Colorado, we'd been in California for a year. If he had died when we were in California, it's a community property state.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  I would have inherited everything. It wouldn't have been a question. Prior to that, we were in Michigan. Michigan has slightly different math on the way they do it. And in Michigan, it's something like on a million dollar estate, they would have walked away with an even larger portion to the tune of about 130,000 more. So it's really a roll of the dice and I encourage everybody to look up their state. You know, there's a saying that goes around, you know, in the financial world, a lot about prenups. And it's like, oh, if you don't have a prenup, your state has one for you. Well, the same is true of wills and trusts. If you don't have one, your state has a plan for you. You just may not know what it is. So if you're curious about what that might look like in your state. And I should also say, this gets changed. It depends a lot on whether you have kids.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Even if you do have kids with your current partner, if one of you had a child or children from a previous marriage, the math changes wildly. It could be that those kids inherit some of that money, but that you as the surviving parent can't have any control over it whatsoever. And maybe it goes to your spouse's ex-wife or husband. So it gets very, very complicated very quickly.

• 34:08Speaker 05

  I like our stackers, Amy, being excited to explore a lot of things. Here's what I'd encourage you to do, stackers. Do not dive into this. Just don't roll the dice. I love your roll the dice analogy. Just don't roll the dice. Get it done. Get it done now. I can't tell you how, I don't know if the feeling is relieved or what it was. I felt so good the day I walked out of the attorney's office with my estate plan in hand when I got it done. I was a guy who was recommending this for a long time. I hadn't done my own. And when I walked out of there, I felt so much better than I thought I would. Like, it was amazing. And the cool thing is then I don't have to worry about what, we were in Michigan at the time. So I didn't have to worry about what the laws in Michigan were anymore. I'm like, nope, I took control of it. You don't have to roll the dice.

• 34:52Speaker 05

  Don't get curious about how the laws work. Just get it done, stackers. It is so important to get this done. Let's move on to afterwards then. So now you have this, you know, financial independence party for two, where now it's a whole new world, Amy. Tell me about now you moving into, really back into the person who is choosing investments, the person who is dealing with all of the, every I and every T in your financial situation, like going from two to one. Tell me about that.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Not only was it going from two to one overnight, but it was also going from accumulation to decumulation overnight. So it was two really big double whammies because he'd still been working and we'd been living on that income. We had not been drawing down any investments. We didn't need to. All of a sudden overnight, I was thrust into a place where that was necessary. And I know we have a lot of conversation in the space about decumulation now. And in particular, setting yourself up for it. There's often moves you're making months, maybe even years in advance to position yourself so that when you get there, things will be lined up in the proper way. I did not have that advantage, obviously. Like, it just happened in the blink of an eye.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  So I knew very quickly that I was going to need help. I ended up being referred by my bank, which is one of the large, you know, Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard ones, to a wealth management firm that had a large staff of financial advisors. And I know this can be rather taboo in our community, but they are assets under management advisors. You know, I know the party lines on that. I know that it's not the most efficient way to monitor your wealth. But also I was in no position to be like, okay, hey, I'm going to dive into all the blogs and all the textbooks and I'm going to learn how to do this myself, like in the weeks and months and even years after my beloved husband had died tragically. Like, there's no way that was going to happen.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  I was, my brain capacity was a fraction of normal. So I started talking with these advisement firms. I interviewed several and I went with one that I liked the best. And I have not looked back. I happily pay that percentage every year. I know exactly what I'm paying them and I am so happy that I don't have to worry about money. It's not, the math part is not a strength for me. Like, I could do it, but it's not a strength. I think I could maybe get, I estimate about 80% of the way there to like doing it right, to being perfectly optimized, to doing the tax planning. 80% is very far from 100%, right?

• 37:41Speaker 03

  So whatever I'm paying my advisement firm, I have ultimate faith that they are getting me like more than I could get myself. Maybe some people would say that I'm selling myself short, but honestly, it's some of the best peace of mind that I've ever bought. And I think an angle that a lot of people don't consider in my particular situation may be

• 38:05Speaker 03

  when your spouse dies, you lose so much of your collective knowledge and skills, right? In any household, you have a division of labor and maybe it's cooking and cleaning and financial management and who's taking care of the car. There's other things too about like, who's like arranging the holidays and who's buying gifts and who's, you know, planning the next renovation. Like, there are so many things. And so many of those, I didn't have a choice about taking on. Like, I just had to. I couldn't really farm out certain things, but this one I could. Like, you can actually pay for financial intimacy, for lack of a better term.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  I can pay someone so that I have someone to call at any point to be like, hey, I'm thinking about finishing with the basement. I think this is what it would cost. Can we look at what this would do to the long-term plan? And they will run the calculations and they will talk me through it and they will be sensitive. And they will tell me that ultimately I get to decide, but this is what they would recommend.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  I feel like a broken record, but I just cannot put a price on that kind of safety and reassurance. That's the route that I've chosen to go.

• 39:15Speaker 05

  When I moved over from being a financial planner a long time ago to the financial media side of things, I noticed there was this, you know what, you're smart enough to do this yourself. And you are smart enough to do this yourself. I'm smart enough to do it myself. It doesn't mean you shouldn't surround yourself with really smart people like you should. And whether it's people on your payroll or going to Camp 5, or in the case of you and me, both, right? I do both. I know what's going on and I have pretty kickass people in my corner. It just makes a bunch of sense to me and the over, the overemphasis on how we pay them. You need to make sure that it is that you're getting a benefit

• 39:56Speaker 05

  that is commensurate with what you're paying and above, that you're getting a bunch. But this ridiculousness that before we even walk into somebody's office, we ask, how much is it? When I don't even know what they do, I don't even know how they're going to help me, is exactly that. It's ridiculousness. And so when I was a financial planner, sometimes often people would hire me just on a fee only basis. And then they go away for three months. We get back together and nothing had gotten done. Nothing had gotten done. And I was like, how long are we going to do this before we actually do something? It really comes down to you. It comes down to you and who you are and what you need.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  And whenever people ask online about, you know, what's a good financial advisor look like? It begins with, what's your issue? You know, what are you trying to solve for? And then find the advisor that helps to solve for that. So somebody who's a great advisor for me might be bad for you. But that's, that's so wild that you came to this, that you went and sought out help, especially as somebody who's a money nerd, right? Who's in the forums, who knows all of this fire inner chat that you went and go, you know what? I need, I need some help. What was it about the interview with these people that you liked? Cause you interviewed a few different firms. What was it that you liked?

• 41:20Speaker 05

  And what did you not like about the other firms that you interviewed?

• 41:24Speaker 03

  Hmm. Good question.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Maybe this isn't fair, but I knew I didn't want somebody who was very young. So I wanted someone who was at least in their 30s. You know, I know we've got brilliant kids coming out of school at 22 and maybe they could handle everything that I needed, but they also don't have like the life perspective. I, I needed somebody who could at least conceptualize the shoes that I was in. And to me, a, a 22, 23 year old right out of school wasn't going to be that person. So that was one piece. I'm not going to pretend that I'm above the kinds of details, like what does their office look and feel like? And are they quick in their communication? You know, do they get back to me in a timely manner?

• 42:10Speaker 03

  All of those things are very important. You know, you don't want to go into an office and see somebody like slouched down and wearing ripped jeans or like, hey, man, what are you doing? Like, that would be an alarm bell, as it should be. My guy usually is wearing sweater vests and no, that does not tell me everything I need to know about him, but it's like a teeny piece of like, okay, we're serious people here. I know that sounds tough.

• 42:36Speaker 05

  No, I did this piece many years ago that went fairly viral, which was how all these little tiny clues, Amy, that add up to a great advisor experience. Like as an example, if you walk into an advisor's office and they're playing CNBC or Fox Business, you need to run, like you need to, we were very adamant that the travel channel was going to be on the TV. It was going to be about hopes and dreams, not about what, what are we freaking out about today? And it was a cumulation of these, we were not going to have me in a high back chair like the king of the universe. And you're sitting in this uncomfortable piece of crap chair across the desk from me like I see all the time. We're going to be at a round table, like Knights of the Round Table.

• 43:18Speaker 05

  I was going to have a whiteboard next to me so that if I had to get up and draw something out for us, but we're all on the same team and my job's to be just your teammate who's smart about this stuff. Like to your point, sweater vest doesn't tell you, doesn't tell you everything, but it is one one thousandth of a piece that you were looking for.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yes, it's a data point and, and I'm a person who's very impacted by aesthetics, like not just the sweater vest, but the, the look of the office. Like you're saying, the round table, the not having Fox and CNBC in the background. Like, these are all data points, you know, on a continuum. Of course, we talked about like how they actually handle money and what their philosophy is and the tools they use and their security protocols. Like we handled all of that stuff too. I don't want to make it sound like I'm just, you know, picking it based on the color of the free pens in the lobby.

• 44:07Speaker 05

  Right. What, what type of coffee do they serve?

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Right. I was happy the day they started stocking Diet Coke. I will say that. Yeah, but the biggest thing I would say was the questions that they were asking me. That's really how I made my decision. They were asking me about my priorities. They knew my situation. They knew it was a sensitive time. They were proactively looking down the road. They were talking about some various tax statuses for qualifying widows and whatever that at that time I had no idea about. They weren't presumptuous. The company and the individual I ended up going with, to this day, we have a great relationship. In fact, I'm seeing him tomorrow.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  They always offer me the option of meeting on Zoom, but they have an office nearby in Boulder and I almost always go into the office. I just enjoy it. It's like a nice check in to be actually physically in a room with someone.

• 45:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  You know, I know about his wife's health struggles and I know the names of their pets. And when I refer them people, he sends donations to the Longmont Humane Society in my name. Like we just, we've developed a, a system of knowing each other now, and it, it brings me a lot of comfort and peace.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  Uh, on to the way you manage money on a daily basis, because when there's an accountability partner, which it sounds like you and Phil were really good at doing together, and then the accountability partner goes away, you had your normal meetings then. Do you now schedule meeting times with Amy where you've got this set meeting on the calendar where you're going to go over your daily finance picture?

• 45:51Speaker 03

  You know, I have experimented over the last handful of years with different ways of doing this, some levels of expense tracking where on a monthly basis I would go in and review some stuff. But for the most part now I've, I've let it go. What happens now is I have a system where I get an allowance, you know, from my own investments on a certain day of the month. That's the money I have to spend and I stay within that and I use one primary credit card and everything's fairly automated. There are still times, especially when the market's doing very well, like it has been this year, where I'm like, well, maybe I'm going to go on this FinTalks cruise to Antarctica. So I'm going to pull out an extra 16 grand right now so that if the market tanks between

• 46:35Speaker 03

  now and that cruise in February 2028, then I won't feel bad about going on a really expensive cruise. So, you know, I do things like that and I talk them over with my advisor and he's aware of what I'm doing. It's not always such a big expense. Sometimes it's just like, I'm going to take out another couple thousand dollars this month because I'm doing a project around the house. I'm, you know, redoing the mulch and the weed fabric on my pumpkin patch or, you know, it could be anything. But I do know that I am very capable of living within that allowance. And I feel like I know and have a good sense of when it's okay to go above. And we've been lucky, right? The market has been doing very well. So it's, it's felt safe to do that. I do have questions about what if that day does come where we're down 25, 30, 40%?

• 47:19Speaker 03

  How's it going to feel then on my own? How will it feel then paying an advisor with those new lower numbers? I have guesses, but I don't have answers. My hope and belief is that I would stay the course. I can scale back expenses where I need to. I have faith in myself about that, but it is still a very different prospect to think about doing those things on your own, right? Versus having that person next to you. So that's where my advisor comes in, but even he, you know, he, he's not my husband. He can't be, it's not like that. So there's a limit even to what help he can provide.

• 47:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, it sounds like, Amy, what you have is a budget similar to what my friend Paulo Pant talks about, which is kind of the anti-budget. I've, I've made sure the goals are good and then I have this money to spend and don't tell me how to spend it. I'll spend it however I damn well choose this month. So you're not going to have a weekly check in to guilt yourself over the, the Mexican restaurant that you could easily afford.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  Totally. Yeah. It's just worth it to me to have that little extra freedom. And honestly, so I, I gave a talk at one of the Camp Fis earlier this summer, during which I mentioned that there are some silver linings to being widowed. And a very brave soul, her name was Becky, asked during the Q and A, what are some of the silver linings? And being in total control of the money is one of them. There's nobody else I need to justify any expense to. Like that $16,000 Antarctica cruise, not like my advisor might coach me a little, but nobody can tell me that I can't do that, or nobody can tell me that I can't go to the Mexican restaurant five days a week with my book at lunch, which is like a thing that I do.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  I, I don't want to give the wrong impression here. Most of being widowed is like freaking horrible and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  Right. You're not advocating for it.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  I am not advocating for it. You know, I'm sitting in my pink guest room slash office right now, which I would never have been allowed to paint a pink room in the house when I was married. So you find the upsides where you can and you laugh about them when you can, because what other choice do you have?

• 49:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can see you painting it pink, laughing at Phil going, hey, guess what, man? Guess what I'm doing today?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  100%.

• 49:39Speaker 05

  This is interesting. You told me at one point, you said that your relationship with Phil is still evolving today and you gave quite a few interviews a couple of years ago on this topic. How's your relationship then changed in the last couple of years with Phil?

• 49:56Speaker 03

  I'd say it's changed in maybe two primary ways. One of them is that unlike those earlier interviews I gave, I have a stronger faith or knowledge now that I'll be okay. That was not necessarily true three years ago. In the sort of widow timeline, it's kind of commonish knowledge that like the first year, you're, you're so blindsided and you're getting through every milestone and holiday. And it's just like, your head is spinning.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  And it's actually pretty agreed upon that the second year is worse because okay, I've gotten through the first, you know, his, the birthday and, and wedding anniversary and death anniversary and whatever. And now they just keep coming and oh my God, this is my life now.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Those first two years, which is the time period during which I gave most of those interviews were really, really rough. I feel glad and, and thankful that I have some distance from that timeline now where there are many more things that have brought joy into my life. And I've felt able to, to take and experience that joy, like my involvement with Camp Fi and Camp Fi New York, like, you know, making new friends and doing lots of traveling and signing up for FinTalks cruises and all the rest. So that's a change from now to then. I, I have much more faith now that life is not always going to be terrible. I won't say that there are never bad days because there are.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  And this time of year in particular is challenging because it contains not only his death anniversary, but our Halloween, you know, and his first date anniversary. And then, you know, Thanksgiving and my birthday and New Year. And it's just, it's a gauntlet that sometimes is, is still difficult. But on the whole, the trajectory is up and to the right. And then the second way I would talk about the way that my relationship with him has, has evolved. It's strange because time in this context for me feels like distance, right? This is now a person that I haven't spoken to in live and in person for five years, more than five years. And so that's an interesting roller coaster.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  But this part about us not having our Ducks in a row and the beneficiaries not being right and him being resistant to having a will. I think earlier on, a lot of people, or maybe the, the interviewers I was talking to, they might've had the expectation that like, I would, I might get over that eventually, especially after it turned out that I would be fine, even though his parents got to walk away with a piece of money, I still had enough to be fine and to remain retired. And that I would, you know, forgive and let it go. I'm not sure what it says about me, but that, that is not true. Like I'm still mad about it. I still cry about it sometimes. I still feel betrayed by it. I still feel like, damn it, how could you have let this happen?

• 52:55Speaker 03

  So it's a mixed bag, we'll say. I still sometimes talk to him out loud. It's not that, you know, because of the time and distance and because I'm still mad at him that I'm like, oh my God, you're the worst person and not like, he's still, he's still the person I chose to spend my life with. But I have changed so much since he died. A thing I, I said in my campfire talk this summer is that the Venn diagram of who I was before and who I am after has very little overlap. So if I were to meet him today, I don't know how it would go, honestly. I know that there's still stuff about him that I would, you know, immediately be drawn to. I don't know if we would end up, you know, being life partners again, which is a weird

• 53:40Speaker 03

  thing to think about. So it's, it's strange.

• 53:43Speaker 05

  Wow. Wow. It is amazing how your relationship just continues to evolve and how, um, you know, the end is not the end. It'll always be a big piece of your life and especially this week. Amy, thank you so much. You help so many people. I know how gut wrenching it's got to be to tell this story, but hopefully you and I together helped a lot of people either deal with something similar or to be prepared a little bit ahead of time when things happen.

• 54:12Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 54:13Speaker 05

  Hey, it's Matt in Gainesville, Georgia. And when I'm not delivering on this consumerism and a big brown package car, I'm stacking

• 54:21Speaker 04

  Benjamins. Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Today is National Chocolate Day, a holiday I celebrate every week, uh, year by eating an entire bag of fun size Snickers. But here's something you might not know. Hundreds of years ago, chocolate wasn't just something you ate when you were feeling sorry for yourself. It was money. That's right. The Aztecs actually used cacao beans as currency. You could walk into a marketplace with a handful of beans and buy yourself like dinner, or maybe one of those cool hats or some electric hedge trimmers. I don't know. Which got me thinking, I got a couple of those giant Costco bags of chocolate chips in my pantry.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  By my calculations, I'm sitting on a fortune. So yesterday I went down to the Sizzler and tried to pay for my steak with a Ziploc bag full of chocolate chips, but Todd, the manager, told me they don't accept chocolate as payment. And I said, well, Todd, maybe you should familiarize yourself with the monetary policies of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica. To which he responded, Doug, this is the third time you've tried to pay with food you brought from home. And that Todd is why you will never be promoted to regional manager. Anyway, historical records tell us that back in the 1500s, you could purchase not just the shrimp appetizer, but a whole bunch of cool stuff with cacao beans. So here's today's trivia question.

• 55:48Speaker 04

  What could you get for 100 cacao beans in an Aztec era marketplace? Is it A, a hen turkey? B, a bride? Or C, a Ford F-150 crew cab? One of those is my favorite. I'm not going to tell you which. I'll be back right after I see if Todd accepts payment in chocolate covered raisins. I mean, come on Todd, those are practically gold bullion.

• 56:09Speaker 05

  Well, you may know that chaos is the name of the game here in mom's basement. What with guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends. Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor is made with high quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients. You always know you're eating something that's good for you, even when you don't have time.

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• 57:37Speaker 05

  life and beating mom at card games. I use Factor and you should too. So let's eat real stackers. Head to factormeals.com/sb50off. Use code SB50OFF. And you know what? You're going to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until December 31st, 2026. That is code SB50OFF at factormeals.com, SB50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details. There is a financial conversation that's coming to millions of American families and there's a pretty good chance nobody wants to be the person who starts it. Inheritance.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  And here's why that matters. An estimated $124 trillion to heirs and charity is expected to be transferred by Americans over the next 20 years. It's an extraordinary amount of money, but Kiplinger's research found that 51% of adults and their parents, get this, never talk about money. And there's a pretty big disconnect. 47% of parents expect to leave a meaningful inheritance, while only 24% of adult children expect to actually receive one. Nearly 30% of parents don't even have a will in place. Maybe it's time we talked. Kiplinger calls it the trillion dollar talk, a conversation about inheritance, estate

• 59:02Speaker 05

  planning, wills, and the questions families should be asking before those decisions become urgent. Because knowing what your family wants and having a plan for it can be one of the most important financial conversations you will ever have. Ready to start yours? Visit kiplinger.com to learn more about the trillion dollar talk and what this historic wealth transfer could mean for your family. It's incredible at a small company like stacking Benjamins, how one, one hire makes all the difference in the world. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on, you need the right hire.

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  hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. And sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, that's a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And guess what? Our stackers are going to get a $75 sponsored job credit. That's you to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support stacking Benjamins by saying you heard about Indeed in mom's basement.

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:01:31Speaker 04

  Hey there, stackers. I'm internationally certified chocolate economist and guy who once tried to open a Roth IRA with a bag of M&Ms, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. OG said, I couldn't do it. Something about qualified contributions and the internal revenue code. Fine OG, but when the dollar collapses and we're all trading Hershey's Kisses for gasoline, don't come crying to me, man.

• 1:01:54Speaker 05

  Is that the way the world collapses? Is it all of a sudden we're all trading Hershey's?

• 1:01:57Speaker 04

  I, that's how I see it in my crystal ball. And then Hershey's Kisses, you're just hoarding them.

• 1:02:02Speaker 05

  Pockets stuffed. It doesn't matter who's got the guns. It matters who's got the Hershey's.

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Before the break, I told you that cacao beans were once used as money in ancient Mesoamerica. And according to historical records, you could even buy yourself a whole bunch of stuff. Now, I don't know what the exchange rate was for a Butterfinger, but with what I got stashed away in my trailer, I imagine that would have gotten you a sweet Resto Mod in El Camino with a 454 under the hood and dual four barrel Holly carbs. Oh, man, some of those Yosemite Sam mud flaps. Well, so what could you get for 100 cacao

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  beans in an ancient Aztec market? The answer is a turkey hen that laid golden eggs, which they thought just made better omelets. And here's my favorite part. Historical accounts also describe people making counterfeit cacao beans out of clay, which means even hundreds of years ago, somebody was out there hustling, trying to go coast five. I guarantee Todd would have spotted those immediately, though. That man can identify a counterfeit coupon from 40 feet away. Ask me how I know.

• 1:03:16Speaker 05

  See, even a counterfeiting operation back in the day.

• 1:03:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  You see a bunch of guys off in the ne'er do wells.

• 1:03:25Speaker 04

  They're do wells in the dark nether regions of Mesoamerica, rolling tiny bits of clay between their hands to make those little balls.

• 1:03:33Speaker 05

  That's all you gotta do. You just trick them long enough that they trade for the turkey and then you're good. Or the F-150. I thought it was the F-150. Imagine that. Where'd you get this? The future. Big thanks to Amy Wilson for sharing that story. And clearly, just another reason to make sure, A, everybody on the team is involved in the financial planning as you go. And then number two, to have your state planning documents done. Number three, to think a little less about optimization and much more about flexibility, about the ability to be flexible with your goals, because you never know when things are going to change. Let's do a headline.

• 1:04:08Speaker 07

  Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

• 1:04:15Speaker 05

  Well, our headline today is especially important to anybody who is thinking about retiring early. If you retire before Medicare age, this applies to you. It also applies to you if you've been notching up that side hustle and OG, maybe you're the earliest side hustle, not making much money yet, and you're using the ACA marketplace for your health insurance. But imagine this, imagine you do have a better financial year than you expected, and you discover that your health insurance discount now comes with a bill. Well, if you buy coverage through the ACA marketplace and get help paying the premiums, this is going to be worth checking out, especially if you freelance, you own a business or retire

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  before Medicare. The IRS has updated its guidance. And here's the headline, guys. The IRS has updated its guidance on subsidy repayments. We're going to show you where the danger is and three things to check before tax season. Here is what's changed. Let's start with the part that's easy to miss. When my monthly insurance payment gets reduced, OG, what's actually happening there? This will kind of lead us into why you might end up having a problem at the end of the year that you didn't expect.

• 1:05:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. So when you sign up for the healthcare plan, right? There's a window of time that you're signing up for it unless there's a qualifying event. But let's say you're just like everybody else and you're going to sign up at the end of the fall here, you know, around December time, you're requested to put in your estimated income. And based on your estimated income, household income, they're going to help calculate here's how much your premiums are going to be. But that's really just an estimated premium payment to help with cash flow, keeping your cash flow level and forecasting it. Because what actually happens then is after you go to file your taxes a year later, all of that stuff is reconciled and then recalculated to decide whether or not you paid the right amount.

• 1:06:06Speaker 05

  So the number on the application then, to be clear, when you sign up, that is a forecast, not a price guarantee. Like you just can't just lowball your number and go, yeah, okay.

• 1:06:18Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I've seen people that talk about this on TikTok and Instagram and, you know, all those faux financial experts that are like, oh, just put in 30 grand and your premiums will be zero. Bada boom bada bing, free healthcare. And you could do that. You can put in that your income is zero and/or a low number and your premiums will be zero and you'll have health coverage. But what happens at the end of the year, when you go to file your tax return is all that gets reconciled and it shows up as a, you know, as payment due basically on your tax forms.

• 1:06:47Speaker 05

  First, and this is to be really clear, it wasn't free. You have to repay the full amount of any excess advanced credits that you were, that you were given. Those old repayment caps are gone.

• 1:07:01Speaker 06

  Yeah. And it's kind of interesting how they say that advanced credits, because that's basically what it is, right? It's, it's the government saying, we are going, instead of, instead of making you pay a thousand dollars a month for your healthcare and then giving you $6,000 back at the end of the year, because it should have been 500, we're just going to help you kind of pre-estimate this and we're going to say it's 500. And, you know, as long as your estimates are correct, then it all comes out in the wash. And it does. I mean, that would help with cash flow quite a bit, obviously.

• 1:07:30Speaker 05

  A hundred percent. And this is new stackers, because there used to be these repayment caps. Those are gone now in the new IRS guidance. They are completely gone. Second, there's an income ceiling again. And if you cross this income ceiling, your federal premium tax credit can disappear immediately. The second you cross it, $1 more, OG, bam, all of a sudden.

• 1:07:52Speaker 06

  Completely gone.

• 1:07:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, you've got a big tax bill.

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  Yeah. And that's obviously for people that, you know, if you get a, a surprise bonus. Honestly, I think this is why you have to know your numbers and you have to have a plan for this, because in the real world, unless you work for a big giant organization, if you work for a small business and your boss says, hey, great news, I'm gonna hit you with a bonus before Christmas. You'd be like, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. January would be a great time for a bonus, not in December.

• 1:08:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:08:20Speaker 06

  Because you gotta kind of know that. Now, the reality is, is that that's not on them to not pay you. You know what I mean? Like, because they're maybe paying a bonus to avoid taxes on their own situation, right?

• 1:08:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can't dictate that.

• 1:08:29Speaker 06

  But even, even if it's not something like that, you pick up a part-time job, you originally thought you was going to be a single income household, and now your spouse starts working in August because the kids are back in school and, you know, and I can pick up a couple of shifts after all. And it's just enough to kind of kick you over that number, you know? But that's true with a lot of federal credits. You know, this isn't a new concept for tax credits and tax deductions and that sort of thing. It's just, it's, it's a slight shift on this particular one. But this is true for everything else as well. It's like, you know, boom, you toggle over this line in the sand, all of a sudden, you know, there goes this credit or there goes that deduction. It's just a similar thing. And it's a much smaller number, unfortunately, and a much bigger impact, I think.

• 1:09:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. Let's put some real numbers to this stacker so that you understand what we're talking about. Let's say there's a made up couple. They both retire before Medicare. So there's early retirees. They expected $80,000 of income under ACA rules. So they put in 80,000 bucks and assume their marketplace plan. Then they get $1,000 a month in advanced premium credits. What that means is they have a $1,000 credit that they're not going to pay. It gets credited because of the $80,000 that they put in ahead of time. That's $12,000 a year. But when everything gets counted at the end of the year, their final household

• 1:09:49Speaker 05

  income is 85,000 bucks. The ceiling for a two-person household in most states is 84,600. So they went over by 400 bucks. What just happened, OG?

• 1:10:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, they have to repay all of their, all of their subsidies that they got in advance.

• 1:10:05Speaker 05

  12,000 bucks.

• 1:10:06Speaker 06

  It's like it never even happened.

• 1:10:07Speaker 05

  $12,000 have to be repaid. Not just the assistance for that one month. They went above it. The entire thing has to be repaid. That can be a big, big, big deal. So just to make sure that our stackers know how this works, let's play a game. Doug, you get to play a game with us. How does that sound?

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  I love it. This is my favorite part. Whenever we do this, this is my favorite part of the show.

• 1:10:30Speaker 05

  You're going to be the income detective, my friend. I'm going to give you three situations and you tell us whether the money counts toward the income that determines this insurance help. All right. So does the money count or does it not count toward money that's going to go into your paycheck at the end of the year? So if you're an early retiree, you're looking at all the places that you can take income out of, right? To not bump up against this, this number.

• 1:10:56Speaker 04

  Can you hold on just a minute while I go get my pipe and that cool hat that has the brim on both the front and the back? I'm going to be detective.

• 1:11:03Speaker 05

  You are the detective. All right. Here's the deal. You convert $5,000 from an entirely pre-tax traditional IRA into a Roth IRA. And this year, you don't spend a dime. You just do the Roth conversion. Does that money count?

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  I don't think so, because it's Roth. Right? It's all pre-tax dollars.

• 1:11:23Speaker 05

  It does count because, oh gee, because of the fact that you made the conversion. The money's going to count, even though you didn't spend it.

• 1:11:32Speaker 06

  Uh, yes, you asked me and then answered the exact same thing I was going to say. So exactly what you said.

• 1:11:39Speaker 05

  Correct. Oh gee, am I right?

• 1:11:42Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:11:43Speaker 05

  Second, you sell stock in a regular brokerage account. It totals 5,000 bucks. You paid $4,500. Does all $5,000 count?

• 1:11:54Speaker 04

  This one I know. It's no, just the 500 bucks, just the capital gain.

• 1:11:59Speaker 05

  Oh gee.

• 1:12:00Speaker 06

  Yep. It's the difference between your cost basis and the amount that you sold it for.

• 1:12:05Speaker 05

  Let's do one more, Doug. You take a qualified tax-free $5,000 distribution from a Roth account. So your money comes out of the Roth. You're allowed to do it for whatever reason. It's completely tax-free, 5,000 bucks. Does that $5,000 count?

• 1:12:23Speaker 04

  This one I know. And more importantly, this means I'm batting 750 after this question because this is a, this is a hard no. This is kind of what I thought you were asking in the first question because the distributions you're taking was already counted as income once before. So it's not going to get counted as income again.

• 1:12:38Speaker 05

  Who is this guy, OG?

• 1:12:40Speaker 06

  Well, uh, he's quite the baseball statistician to bat 750 with three at bats.

• 1:12:44Speaker 05

  Three questions?

• 1:12:45Speaker 06

  But, um, you know, I, I think I figured out why Doug's, um, you know, high school yearbook is not quite as, uh, glorious as he remembers the season being. Um, but, um, like, no, my on-base percentage was 1,300, guys.

• 1:13:02Speaker 05

  Like, okay, all right, buddy. So when do you look at this? Let's give our stackers some jobs. When do you look at this? When you look at your full year income and, and kind of look at where you're going to land, OG, maybe the beginning of December?

• 1:13:13Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, the application process is going to happen. I think the opens, the window opens maybe November 15th and ends December 15th. It's right around that time. There'll be a big public announcement and you can, uh, look for the open enrollment time. But when you do that, it, it makes no sense to fib, right? It makes absolutely no sense to fib on your number because it's all going to be washed out at the end of the next tax year, you know? And that's the other thing, honestly, that kind of sucks about all these things is, you know, you're deciding in December what you're going to pay January through the next December, but then gets reconciled the following April. And it's like, holy, I mean, we're, you know, I get it. It's kind of out there.

• 1:13:55Speaker 06

  So yeah, I would take last year's tax return and I would, another good use of AI, honestly, if you feel like doing it. And just say, hey, what are we forecast to do in 2027? So here's the problem. The last tax return you did was 25. You have data from 26, but no tax return data because it's December. You haven't done your taxes for 26 yet, obviously. And you're trying to guess what your income's going to be in 27. This is going to take a few minutes to sit down and, and pencil out to see what works and give yourself a realistic number. If you're in retirement, you definitely have to consider where all the sources of this income going to be. And, you know, work with your planner to make sure that the distribution plan that you have is commensurate with where the money is. And then, you know, the tax credit.

• 1:14:39Speaker 05

  Ceiling is, yeah.

• 1:14:40Speaker 06

  So you have to know what those things are. So you want to include all of your income. If you're a business owner, you got side hustle money, you want to include your profit, obviously. Look, at the end of the day, it's just like Roth conversions. I wouldn't try to get right up to the number. You know, if the number's 85,000, I wouldn't say, well, I think I can get 84,999. I'd be at like 75,000, 70,000 to give yourself a plenty of wiggle room because you know what you can do? Is in December of next year, you can always say, oh, I'm 15 grand under. I can do that Roth conversion now for 10,000. I'm a little light in the final quarter of my income because I've been really watching it, but I, you know, we got that trip we're trying to do. Or we're going to go to see the kids at Christmas or something and I need to have a little extra.

• 1:15:26Speaker 06

  You can recalculate this in the fourth quarter of next year to see exactly where you are. Also, you can figure out like, oh crap, I'm over. Is there something I can do to lower this number to get under it?

• 1:15:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:15:37Speaker 06

  You know, if you're a business owner, maybe have some other expenses or, you know, whatever.

• 1:15:40Speaker 05

  Let's say that it's going to be way over OG and I'm only halfway through the year. Can I report that right now to the marketplace to make sure I don't have this big, oh crap bill at the end of the year?

• 1:15:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, it would help to recalculate it and, and let the, you know, healthcare.gov people know, uh, and they can adjust the premiums. And it's kind of like, you know, people will say at the end of the year, like, well, my CPA got me a thousand dollar refund. He didn't get you anything. He filled the form out correctly. That resulted in a thousand dollar refund. You overpaid, you know? So at the end of the year, all of this is going to be washed out one way or the other. If you're way over, you can fix it now or you can fix it in April. Either way, it's going to get fixed. Dealer's choice.

• 1:16:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. Any credit, by the way, that you don't get that you were eligible for, you're still going to get it on the tax form.

• 1:16:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. If you, and that's another point, I think, like, let's say that you're, look, you're doing it and you're saying, you know, I think I'm going to be over. I think I'd rather just plan on being over. And if I get a surprise under, well, that works to your benefit also where, you know, in your example earlier, I'm at $85,000. I think I'm going to be at 85,000. So I don't take any credits, you know, in the cash flow. Turns out my income is 72,000. Well, guess what? You're going to get a credit because now you, when they reconcile it, they'll, you know, you'll, you'll do the math and you'll get a credit for the difference.

• 1:16:57Speaker 05

  We ran Doug through the definition, some of the definitions of what income looks like and what counts and what doesn't count for an early retiree. Let's talk about people that are self-employed, OG, because for them, they have to also know the right definition, right? If you're looking at your gross income, that's going to be vastly different than the number that you're really reporting.

• 1:17:17Speaker 06

  Oh, on the top line of business income, you mean?

• 1:17:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:19Speaker 06

  Like revenue?

• 1:17:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 06

  Sure. Yeah. I mean, this is going to be the number that flows to your tax return with some slight adjustments, but you know, it's not your business revenue. This is revenue minus your necessary ordinary expenses to get to your net profit.

• 1:17:32Speaker 05

  So stackers, there's your homework. If you're either self-employed, you know, somebody who's self-employed using the ACA or someone who is an early retiree. You want to make sure that they're aware that the guidelines have, uh, have shifted a little bit. There's a bigger opportunity to get a surprise than there was, uh, just a couple of months ago.

• 1:17:51Speaker 06

  I mean, this is why financial planning doesn't happen kind of in these individual things. All of this stuff works together. Your investment strategy, your tax planning, your retirement income, your health insurance plans, uh, your savings and investing contributions, location where all that's going. Like all of that goes together to have an outcome in that tax year. Everything counts.

• 1:18:14Speaker 05

  We will link to resources on this in our show notes page at stack your benjamins.com. Kevin does deep dives on topics like this in the 201. And now Doug, not only can you get yourself educated with the 201 through next Friday, you could also win a solo stove.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  Solo stove, baby.

• 1:18:32Speaker 05

  How great is that? If you're, the whole family got involved.

• 1:18:37Speaker 04

  We're all excited.

• 1:18:38Speaker 05

  All right. It's time for us to segue onto the back porch, Doug. What's going on in stacker land this, uh, Halloween weekend?

• 1:18:46Speaker 04

  Well, Joe, in stacker land, I think the big news is, don't we have some big updates to the guides coming out?

• 1:18:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, we had some big updates on, uh, two things for this year. OG, you and I just talked about one, but two more that went out last month with the guides. If you have student loans, we mentioned this on the show, if you have student loans, you've till the end of the year to get a 1% reduction in your interest rates on your student loans, depending on what type you have. That was in our guide update this last month, how that works. Also, uh, FAFSA instructions, step by step, how to do the FAFSA, not the ogre that it used to be. We've got two different videos that went into the college guide. On the tax front, man, big year if you're a retiree.

• 1:19:29Speaker 05

  If you have no income, there is this opportunity by the end of the year to roll $47,500 from a traditional IRA over to a Roth IRA and not pay any tax or penalty. We walk through all that in the guides. And on the benefits guide front, we take you through a workflow, really easy worksheet. If you're choosing here during open enrollment season, if you're choosing, uh, type of healthcare that's best for you, which one is best? And we walk you through that in the guide, stack your benjamins.com/guides. And the next update to your point, Doug, looks to come out, uh, early next week. So we're going to have a lot more coming from the guides. And of course we have scout in the guides, right?

• 1:20:11Speaker 05

  Who you can just ask your question now. You don't got to read the guide. Nobody wants to go read a full guide. Just ask scout. And instead of asking AI a question that you're nebulous about and you're not sure how it works. Scout only knows our stacking Benjamin's guide. So the chance of her hallucinating on the answer and giving you the wrong one, uh, much, much closer to zero than if you just ask chat GPT or Claude or your, your favorite AI.

• 1:20:34Speaker 04

  Chat and Claude are going to bad mouth me. Scout doesn't do that.

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  Scout has been trained not to.

• 1:20:40Speaker 04

  She likes me.

• 1:20:42Speaker 05

  Well, that might be pushing it, but, uh, we're, we're pretty close. Great lessons in today's show. Big thanks to Amy Wilson for sharing that story. By the way, if you have questions for us, stack your benjamins.com/voicemail. And, uh, we're going to continue answering questions here in the next couple of weeks. Last but not least, if you're not here just because you wanted to know about the ACA and the changes, or you didn't want to hear just about Amy's story about plans changing, you really need your plan to change. OG and his team are taking clients already right now, booking for 2027. So make sure that you get in before spots are filled. Stack your benjamins.com/OG gets OG's calendar.

• 1:21:28Speaker 05

  Man, it's the fourth quarter of 2026. If you're looking at the calendar and you're like, man, I didn't do all the stuff I needed to do. Get some better help in your corner. Stack your benjamins.com/OG. All right. That's going to do it for today. Doug, you've got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's show?

• 1:21:43Speaker 04

  Well, Joe first takes some advice from Amy. You never know when the plan will change. Complete your estate plans and stay flexible. Second, relying on the ACA for health insurance, recalculate your income near year end so that you don't end up with a huge surprise bill from the government. Nobody's talking about this, which makes the surprise even worse. But the big lesson, never tell Joe's mom you'll pay her in cacao beans for services rendered. She'll share that the currency in this house is measured in manual hours worked, not chocolate. And she doesn't care what cultural American reference you make to support your argument. You're going to do the time, buster.

• 1:22:27Speaker 04

  This show is the property of SP Podcast LLC, copyright 2026, and is created by Joe Saul Sehy. You'll find out about our awesome team at stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh, yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

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