The 5 Secrets of a Happier Retirement with Wes Moss (SB1892)

What actually makes for a happy retirement? Today, Joe sits down with retirement expert Wes Moss, author of The Retire Sooner Method, to explore the research behind America’s happiest retirees. Wes explains why money is only part of the equation, how community and “super activities” give retirement purpose, why eliminating debt can create more freedom, and how a clear retirement plan can help reduce the fear of running out of money. Then Joe and OG tackle one of retirement’s most popular investing strategies: living off dividends so you never have to sell your investments. They break down why dividends feel so appealing, where the strategy can fall short, and why building your retirement income plan around your goals may matter more than chasing a particular yield. Plus, Doug celebrates the anniversary of the ATM with some cash-dispensing trivia. Resources mentioned Wes Moss https://www.wesmoss.com/The Retire Sooner Method: The 5 Secrets Behind America’s Happiest and Unhappiest Retirees https://retiresoonermethod.com/?utm_campaign=46654242-Retire%20Sooner%20Method&utm_source=email&utm_content=Stacking%20Benjamins%204You Can Retire Sooner Than You Think https://retiresoonermethod.com/?utm_campaign=46654242-Retire%20Sooner%20Method&utm_source=email&utm_content=Stacking%20Benjamins%204Retirees Love Dividends, but the Stock Market Surge Is Making Them Think Again — The Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/retirees-love-dividends-but-the-stock-market-surge-is-making-them-think-again-0e448ff6Field Kit Finance https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/fieldkitThe 201 newsletter — stackingbenjamins.com/201 https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/the201/Field Kit Finance webinars: Sign up for The 201 to get the full schedule. https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/the201/The Clark Howard Show https://clark.com/FinCon https://finconexpo.com/Dana Anspach https://sensiblemoney.com/team/dana-anspach/Ben Carlson https://awealthofcommonsense.com/Attorney Tim Semro’s recent Stacking Benjamins appearance https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/how-to-protect-your-estate-and-legacy-1886/ FULL SHOW NOTES: https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/wes-moss-retire-sooner-method-1892/ Deeper dives with curated links, topics, and discussions are in our newsletter, The 201, available at https://www.stackingbenjamins.com/201 Enjoy! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5, only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Prepare to die.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and why are some people so happy during retirement while not so much for others? We'll talk about why some people struggle with their later years while others thrive with today's Wednesday mentor, Wes Moss. And speaking of retirement, in our headline segment, many retirees love taking dividends from investments so they don't have to sell anything off. But is that strategy sound? We'll share our thoughts. Plus, I'll share some trivia that'll put a nice big bow on this extravaganza. And now, two guys who are the Fred and Barney of financial podcasting. It's Joe. Oh, and oh, Juju, Juju G. I don't know which one of those I want to be.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Like, sometimes you think being Fred would be really cool, but isn't Barney the one who's always talking him out of stupid stuff? Who's going, my friend, should we do that? I don't, I don't know which one. Hey, everybody, welcome to the Flintstones Conundrum Podcast. I am Joe Saul Sehi, and across the table from me is my good friend OG. How are you, man?

• 1:49Speaker 03

  Good. Looking forward to some fun stuff tomorrow, the 3rd, and then a three-day weekend, maybe four days, if you know who can get their homework done in time.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Oh, this guy.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, we don't like to leave early on Friday, Doug, just so you know.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Huh. I'll keep that in mind. If you can, if we can wrap this up.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Get your chores done.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  It is never a chore, by the way. You like that segue? When Wes Moss is here, if there is a guy who lives halfway across the United States from me, that would be my number one draft pick to hang out with far more often, it's Wes Moss, because he's always thinking phenomenal stuff, and he's focused it right on retirement. You have said this through the years. Your big mantra is flexibility. You want to solve for flexibility. And I think that Wes is in that same ballpark where he's like, listen, you want to be flexible with your money because of the fact that what we're truly solving for is happiness.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  We're really solving for, how do we not have more money we can bury around us when we die? How do we make retirement happy? And as you know, a good majority of people are happy, but there's a significant minority, not a small minority, a significant minority, that the years of retirement are a painful misstep, and they realize they should have done it much better. And Wes is trying to solve that, as are you and me.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  I mean, what's the point of all this if you're going to be miserable, right? It's like, you know, might as well try to have some fun along the way.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Even before we hit record button, Doug was rolling his eyes because you and I wouldn't stop talking about designing a life that's just around the way that you want to live and not around all this extracurricular activity. Doug is like, can we record a podcast? Come on, man.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Like, bro, I'm designing my life.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  We're going to talk about the miracles of the universe, and Doug is like, hey, my miracle is if we can finish a podcast. We're going to do that right now, though. I can't wait because you are about to hear, I love all the people that we schedule for this show, but Wes Moss is a gentleman who, not only has he had the longest-running radio show, call him radio show, in the world. People think Dave Ramsey's had the longest? Nope. Wes Moss has had the longest in Atlanta. He also fills in for another guy weekly, a little personality named Clark Howard. So you hear Wes Moss all the time now on the Clark Howard Show, but more importantly, you hear him down in mom's basement from time to time. Every time Wes is here, he brings it in a big way.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  So grab a piece of paper or however you take notes, because Wes Moss is on his way down to the basement. We do have a couple sponsors who make sure that we can keep bringing this to you for the exorbitant price of free. So we're going to hear from them, and then Wes Moss coming down to mom's basement to talk about how to be happier in your retirement. Hey, stackers, if you're here because your budget's a mess, where do you start? Well, focus on the big picture and grab your field kit. Head to Field Kit Finance for your new favorite budgeting tool and a ton more. When I say a ton more, I mean a ton more. Fieldkitfinance.com. Well, you may know that chaos is the name of the game here in mom's basement, what with

• 5:14Speaker 02

  guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is, prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends? Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor is made with high-quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients. You always know you're eating something that's good for you, even when you don't have time. It's ready in two minutes, whether it's lunch between meetings or dinner after holiday shopping.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Factor requires zero prep, cleanup, or effort from you or mom, so you can focus on everything else in your day. Factor even has heart smart options like the Green Goddess Baramundi with tomato rice, peas, kale, and green beans, or the enchilada-style chicken and sweet potatoes. Those are so good. They're crafted with lean proteins, fiber-packed fruit and veggies, and healthy fats. Try those out. Your heart and your taste buds will thank you. For Cheryl and I, Factor has been a great way for us to stay busy and focus on family life and beating mom at card games. I use Factor, and you should too.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  So let's eat real, stackers. Head to factormeals.com/sb50off. Use code SB50OFF. And you know what? You're going to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until December 31st, 2026. That is code SB50OFF at factormeals.com, SB50OFF, at factormeals.com. See website for more details.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  I was in a really fun meeting last week with members of our Benjamin's After Dark group, and we were diving into the efficient frontier. It was a really, really fun online meeting, but that meeting was so dense that one of the participants said, man, I wish I had a way that I could like take notes and pay attention at the same time. And everybody started laughing because they knew exactly what I was going to talk about. Granola, whether you are in meetings back-to-back all day, or you're in one of our Stacking Benjamins online meetings, you already know the struggle. You're nodding along, you're contributing, you're trying to stay present, but in the back of your mind, you're like, okay, what happens next? What do I do? What's going on? How does Granola work?

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Well, Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. You take rough notes like you normally would, and in the background, Granola is securely transcribing everything for you. And the best part, it works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into whatever conferencing tool you already use. No setup, no awkward bots. It's just your normal meeting with superpowers. Granola has been amazing for my meetings, and it was funny, based on what was happening in this Benjamin's After Dark meeting, I knew that a lot of other people had used it because everybody's singing the praises of Granola. So meetings are eating up your day. Granola is a no-brainer.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  You can try it totally free by heading to granola.ai/sb. Go to granola.ai/sb and get your time back. Once again, try for free at granola.ai/sb.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Well, a lot of us stackers think retirement happens when you reach a certain age. Maybe it's 62, maybe it's 65, maybe it's 67, or whenever the government finally sends them a permission slip. Wes Moss has spent years studying happy retirees and his research suggests retirement might be less about reaching a birthday and more about reaching the point where work becomes optional. And even better, some people may be able to get there several years sooner than they assume. And today, we're going to find out how to tell whether retirement's closer than it looks and how to make sure the life waiting on the other side is one that we actually want. Wes Moss, welcome back to Mom's Basement, man.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  Joe Saul Sehi, my favorite podcast host on the planet. What's up, man?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Stop, keep going, stop, keep going.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Well, you always have been. I will just say you've been nice to me even before we even met. And then we met in person and we had a good time. I think we had a couple of drinks at the bar and, you know, became actual friends, but we don't see each other as much as we'd like.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  No, likewise. I feel like if you move to Texarkana, which I would love for you to do tomorrow, it would be trouble for both of our careers.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  I think it'd be good. No, I think it's good for socialization and that's a

• 10:04Speaker 02

  A big part.

• 10:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, huge part of this book.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Well, and a huge part of retirement. So let's talk about that. One of our stackers, Wes, comes up to you and says, I don't need a giant retirement plan yet. I just want to know whether I'm even in the neighborhood. Where do I begin?

• 10:21Speaker 04

  I thought you were going to start with the friendship recession. We will get to that when we talk about socialization. But on the money side, which is let's say the foundation of all of this, there are mixed messages in the world. There are studies that come out every week or every month that suggest what Americans say they think they need. 1.2 million, 1.5, 950,000. There are lots of authors and hosts that say you need 5 million or 10 or $20 million in order to retire. I approach it in a different way. My research is approaching it this way, Joe, which is I'm looking at a population in America and I'm doing research and I'm saying, how much do you have? And then I'm mapping that group on levels of happiness.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  So I look at it as different zones. I think there are three zones that we get to of liquid investable cushion, the cushion assets that can now feed your spending for the rest of your life. And where those end up is that if we're $100,000 and less, we are in the, what I would consider the red zone. Happiness levels are dramatically below the baseline of my research. So the average person happiness, if you have 100,000 saved and you're getting towards retirement, you're way under the happiness baseline. The neutral zone, Joe, is from that. It's a big neutral zone where happiness levels are right around the population average. And that's 100 grand to a million or 999.

• 11:49Speaker 04

  And then once I get to, or once we get to a million dollars, then happiness levels jump and they jump dramatically statistically significant. So to me, it's about getting in what I would consider one of the three money green zones. And I know that once we get to a million dollars, that's the first category. Then there's the 2.9 and above. Both of those categories, happiness levels jump dramatically for Americans. We can all make our own conclusions of why that is, but that's what the data and the research tell me when it comes to retirement happiness. So I think we get to that money green zone of a million and we're in really good shape. We get above 2.9, happiness levels actually jump even a little bit more, but they start to plateau.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  They do. Yeah. You know what fascinates me, Wes, about your research? I feel like a lot of us solve for more money. And as you have pointed out, having more money can make us happier. There's some old research, it's been debunked on this, right? More money can give you some happiness, but I think when people just focus on just the size of the portfolio, there's a bunch that they miss. When people only focus on this number, just the flat out number, what is it that they're missing?

• 13:03Speaker 04

  They're missing what I would consider the other 80% of retirement. I think it's a critical one in five. So if there's five things that are the formula, and if, and this is also something the research informed me on, if we nail each one of these five, collectively, money is only one of the five. So that's 20% of the whole battle. But if we nail all five, my research suggests or tells me that you have a 96% chance of ending up in what I would call the happy retiree camp, or I call them ATRUBs, happiest retirees on the block. So what are the other four? Perhaps the most important one, and why I may move to Texarkana, is your community and socialization.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  And I'm skipping ahead here from the book, the first chapter is about the money green zones.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:54Speaker 04

  But when I get to socialization, if I can boil that down to one word, it's about community. And we are in a friendship recession in America. And it's been, it's been a long bear market for friendship. And one of the other things I wanted to find out is, and I asked this question, how easy or difficult is it for you to make a friend per decade in your life? So you're in your twenties, thirties, forties, all the way to your nineties. And as you maybe can imagine, it's pretty darn easy in your twenties. I mean, you're in college or you're, it's almost, it's hard not to make friends. And then in your thirties, it's still pretty easy, but it gets materially more and more difficult as we age to make new close friendships.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  And we have to have, at least this is another piece of the research, we've got to have four or more people in our lives that we consider real life, not online. Online doesn't count, that's a zero, but actual human relationships. And if, and we want to have four or more of them in our lives.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Isolation, isolation's the enemy.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  It is one of the most unhealthy things on the planet and it just keeps getting worse in America. And I don't know what, this is where anthropologic, I don't know why, Joe, it's gotten so much harder, but no matter how you look at it, and I looked at outside research about friendship in America, and then I did my own research, maybe mine informs us that it, if you think about it, we move, we get divorced, we die, we get sick, we get less able to, let's say, do the physical activity or core pursuit that we love to do. So we stop doing that, so we lose that social group as well. So it gets hard and we've got to understand that that friendship recession broadly, just

• 15:38Speaker 04

  for everyone in America has got, we have less friends today than we did in the 1990s. And it just gets harder as we age. So we have to work against that and against that natural trend so that we nail that, that's one of the five. We've got to have four more close friends and we've got to have a community in retirement or else it doesn't matter if you're at the money green zones.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  If community's the first one, what one's second?

• 16:04Speaker 04

  Well, community's the third one in the book, but the second one is the Joe Saul Sehi shout out where I, I give you serious credit on this. I mean, for real. If anybody listening remembers my first book, I use the phrase core pursuits, which I define as hobbies on steroids. So these are not just things you do once in a while. Your core pursuits are an enormously important factor of you having purpose once you stop your main work, which again is a really uphill climb. It's a very difficult thing for folks when they stop working. They've got all sorts of psychological headwinds, like running out of money, we lose socialization, we stop working and we lose purpose.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  So a core pursuit in my book is a hobby on steroids. I like to measure what these are, how many people have, how many the happy group has versus the unhappy group. And when you and I were talking, this is five years ago in FinCon, which by the way, I think you're going to be at the FinCon in California, right?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Palm Springs. Yeah, you coming?

• 17:09Speaker 04

  It's not just Cali, it's Palm, yeah, it's Palm Springs. I am going to be there, man. I am speaking and I look forward to hearing you too there and we'll hang out in California. But I think you said this, the one thing I like about your book, Wes, is those things you talk about. He goes, I'm not exactly sure. You said, he goes, it's this, I'm talking about you, Joe. You said the super activities.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Super activities.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  That you talk about in your book. And I said, you mean core pursuits? And you said, yes, core pursuits. And I said, you know what, why didn't I think of that? Super activities is such a cool way to say it.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  That's what, I mean, let's be real, how instrumental was that single contribution to this entire research project? Like, did everything finally click together and that was the key piece of this whole deal?

• 17:56Speaker 04

  It was the single most motivating factor to write this book so I could tell the world that I have a better name for core pursuits than core pursuits, AKA hobbies on steroids. They are called super activities from Joe Saul Sehi.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  But what turns it from an ordinary activity into a super activity, Wes?

• 18:13Speaker 04

  There's got to be a real anticipation and love for what it is. And only you know if a super activity is a super activity versus just a once in a while hobby. And if you are planning your life around something, it's a super activity. If you are doing this, let's say, once a month or more, it's a super activity. If you've got a group of friends and your social network and community is also based around a particular activity, it's a super activity. It's not, and golf is an easy way to look at it. If you are someone who golfs three to five times a year in a charity tournament and somebody

• 18:55Speaker 04

  begs, he's like, oh, we really need you to put one, that, and you play golf. But if you're not doing it all the time and it's not something that's a big part of your life, then it doesn't count. That's not, that's not a core pursuit. So it's anything that you are really looking forward to doing. If I fish twice a year, is that a super activity? No. If I'm going to go on three fishing trips a year with my buddies, I'm going to take my kids fishing three times and I'm going to go fishing on my own three or four times, then guess what? That's a super activity. But we need five of those, Joe, or more in order to fill the time and the structure once we're stopped, once work is done.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  The thing you want to hear from somebody is, I'm so busy with this activity. I don't know how I ever had time to work. I think that's what you're looking for, isn't it?

• 19:44Speaker 04

  Totally, totally. I have a story in the book of someone who wrote me and he talked about how he had such an empty calendar after work. And then now he, like back in his working years, he has so many core pursuits to schedule every week, every month, throughout the year. And trips are part of that. So travel is a popular super activity, core pursuit, that he now has a full outlook calendar of just, and these are all just things he's loving in retirement. He's got his color coded for his, his activities. And I think there's another color coded for his wives and then the ones that they actually do together. And I, I think it's awesome when people have a dozen of these things. And I get a lot of mail from people

• 20:27Speaker 04

  who will list out all their core pursuits and it's not, and I see people that have lots of them, way more than five. But I think five is a lot. Five is a lot.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Five is a lot because I find that the older I get, I don't know about you, Wes, but I put these things in the calendar at the beginning of the year, like some of the big core pursuits that have nothing to do with work. I don't want work to get in the way of these things that I love way more than what my work is.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  I'm going to ask you a question. I'm putting you on the spot because it's an easy and hard question all at the same time. What are your five super activities?

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  Do you have five right now? Because you're not fully retired, but?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  I do. I do.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  What are they?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  So I am president of a group that builds walking trails around Texarkana. And so I interface with city leaders. I help build paths. I help them raise money. We put on a half marathon every year. So that's number one. Number two is travel. My wife is trying to go to all of the national parks and we're at 45 of 63. So we're getting close. And I'm trying to go to all the major league baseball stadiums. I notched two more. I haven't done Atlanta yet. When I do Atlanta, Atlanta is one of the seven I've left, Wes. So when I go to Atlanta, I'm, I'm buying you a seat.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  I'll buy you a seat. Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Okay. We'll do it together. Between those two things. So there's mine and hers, but we do them together. She's dragged all the major league stadiums and I get dragged all the national parks and we couldn't be happier. Uh, third.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  That's three. I give you three already. So walking, travel to the parks, travel to baseball. I give you one of each. You're at three now.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  I got another one, which is, I love board games. But the reason I love board games is not board games. I love hanging out with friends and just laughing and having a nice night. And I know how hard it is, especially for men to form friendships later in life. And as a guy who moved to Texarkana in his 40s, I know that there's a lot of isolation. I could already see the isolation in people that I was meeting. So I've got this, it isn't specifically for guys. It's become guys game night, but I really don't want it to be, you know, just for guys. If a spouse wants to come, that's fine. But all of our spouses go, you know what I love about guys game night is that I know where my husband is. I know he's not at a bar. I know he's with a group of guys just hanging out, laughing

• 22:38Speaker 02

  about whatever the board game is. And we do that about once a month and we've got, I think 18 guys on the list and we'll generally have 12 to 15 that show up at somebody's house. Somebody makes dinner and we have a great time hanging out with the dudes. But that's, you know, that's something that I want to continue. Again, not so much for the board games. I love board games, but what I love about it is the camaraderie and us, you know, the shared experience that we have together. So there's, there's some of mine.

• 23:03Speaker 04

  Really good ones. Yeah. That's four really, really good ones.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Yours? Well, let's, let's turn it back on you, Wes.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  You would think I have this memorized, but I don't. Uh, these are just going to be on the top of my head. I coach lacrosse. That's one. Number two, I would say I do a lot of music. I have a, I have a dad band. That takes up a lot of time and that's a social activity as well. I play the keyboards piano for that. And that's a really, really fun. I am an actual golfer, still not like a great golfer, but it's a big part. I love doing it. I golf with my kids. I've got a pretty big golf group and I have a couple golf trips a year. So I would count number three. I would say number four is snowboarding.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  I still love skiing slash snowboarding. I'm, I'm really a snowboarder, not a skier so much, but I do that and my kids do that. That's a really fun thing, but that's only in the winter time. And then I'd say I'm in a pickleball league. So I'll go pickleball is number five. And phew, started to sweat there. I want to make sure I had five.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  I get my ankle surgery done and out of the way, then I want to go finally make it out to the pickleball court. But right now my lateral movement is, is not very good.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  I can't count, like I, let's say lift weights two or three times a week for working out. Some people list their exercise is a pretty big, is a high level core pursuit that they love. Walking group, hiking, running, yoga. I don't list that as one of mine because I do it because I, it's healthy. Not that I love to do it. I don't, I don't look forward to lifting, but I do it.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  On Tuesdays, I work out in a little group that includes our city mayor and we have the most fun. It's the way I got to know the mayor was working out. I didn't even know he was the mayor until she told me he was the mayor. It was kind of embarrassing.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  Wait, how many, how many people? What's population of where you are?

• 24:57Speaker 02

  65,000.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  That's a, that's not a small town. That's like a big town. Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  He's the, the mayor on the Arkansas side. Um, you know, there's another one, which is interesting for you and me, because you have kids at home still. I do not. One of my core pursuits is always, and this is on my calendar, is to make sure that I keep up with my kids. One's in Detroit and one is in Boston. So Cheryl and I decided that we do a yearly retreat now where we buy the house, we get you there. And then once you're there, we just schedule dinners together. And if you want to go do stuff by yourself, that's fine. If you want to hang out with mom and dad, that's fine. What's cool is we've done it three times so far. And the three times we did this, the kids wanted to hang out with mom and dad, which I love, which is great. But even if they didn't, just us

• 25:44Speaker 02

  being in a shared place for, you know, a long weekend. Um, the first year we did, uh, we did Cape Cod. The second time we did Manhattan. I think next time we're going to do like Telluride. Should be a really fun time.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  Guaranteed fun time. Telluride is amazing. I'm with you too on that. I do, we love Northern Michigan and I have a place up there and we, particularly in the summer, we try to spend some time up there. And that, that to me is a, it's a super outdoor type of place. There's, there's water. So you can, you can boat, you can golf and the kids are kind of all there together. They're not quite out of the house yet like yours, but I look at the, I'm, I'm looking at that day, Joe, always thinking about how am I going to still be able to see my adult kids? And, you know, one part of that plan is to have a place where they all want to go. So we'll see if that works. We'll see.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  As you know, from early in your career, they're busy. So it's on me to make sure that we take the time, right? I don't put it on them. I was listening to a dad the other day say, well, my kids know I'm one phone call away. You know, I got them, I got, I gotta be the one to pick up the phone. I gotta be the one to pick up the phone. Let's go to the math here a little bit. I want to use a simple example, Wes. Let's say somebody wants an $80,000 a year lifestyle. They've got like social security. They're lucky enough to have a pension. So that let's say covers 50,000 of it. They have another 30,000 less. We've mentioned two of these five, uh, things that we want to think about. Are we using the X, the 30,000 to make sure that we're hitting these core pursuits, that

• 27:23Speaker 02

  we're hitting these relationships? What do we, how are we thinking about the other 30,000 bucks?

• 27:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. One of the, the other money green zones. So one is about investable assets. That's your cushion. Another one is years to pay off mortgage. And then there is one money green zone that I think is super important and that's household income. The money green zone on household income that I found starts at, it's still, it's neutral zone between 50 and 100. And then it's green zone. Once you get above 100. The way I look at this is that all of your income should, and, and once you're done your mortgage, should be able to be, not all of your income, but a huge percentage of your income should go towards all of your core pursuits. I mean, that is, that's the reality of what we want to be doing. I statistically also found that the average happy retiree, and I'll, I'm

• 28:13Speaker 04

  going to round the numbers here, spend 19 hours a week doing their core pursuits. The unhappy group is about 13. Mathematically, that happy retiree group does an extra 280 hours a year, which is the equivalent to seven, that's seven working weeks per year doing structured activities that they love. And I would say that the 30,000 that you just mentioned, or more of that goes, goes towards that.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  So when I'm thinking about my fixed expenses and what I can dedicate, I mean, that's kind of my line.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  Well, it depends. If the yellow zone on income is 50 grand to 99, it's, those happiness levels are neutral. In the United States are slightly above the happiness baseline. And the higher the percentage of your overall household income that goes to discretion, discretionary. So that's not your property taxes and it's not what's left in the mortgage. It's not car insurance, but discretionary to the activities, which maybe their travel, their game night, they're your other hobbies and corporate, your hobbies on steroids. I think that the higher the percentage of the discretionary household income, the better.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Let's play a game. You know how much I like games. I'm going to give you some people, Wes, and you tell me retire, wait, or we need more information. And if you say we need more information, I want to know what information we need. I don't want any of these financial advisor answers with like 17 disclaimers either. Okay?

• 29:43Speaker 04

  Okay. Of course not. I'm an author, Joe. Come on.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  That's right. I'm sorry.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  I'm a podcast guy. I'm an author. Sure. I'm a financial advisor, but I'll answer these in a, in a non-disclamatory way.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  A couple has $1.2 million invested. They have no mortgage. They have no idea what they spend. Retire, wait, or need more info? And if we need more info, what do we need more info on?

• 30:09Speaker 04

  You do need, this is a wait, but it could be wait only until you get your, have an understanding of what your spending is. And that goes back to the, I talked about the rich ratio. You've got to have a rich ratio of plus one. If you're bringing in 10 grand a month, that's great. Amazing. If you're spending 12, then there's an insidiousness around that because it impacts you psychologically that you're draining your accounts and you're underwater. And psychologically, it lends itself to what I found to be the great, one of the great fears in our research in this book, and that's running out of money. And it's pervasive. It's almost 40%, Joe, with folks that have a million or more. It is,

• 30:52Speaker 04

  it is 24%, so almost one in four for people with three million and more.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 30:57Speaker 04

  So it doesn't matter if you've got the assets, if your spending doesn't account for that, then you're going to have this anxiety, which I think that that's what we're trying, that's one of the things that Retire Sooner Method is trying to do is to reduce your financial anxiety. So this couple, million bucks, no mortgage, doesn't know their spending, that's a wait.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Second, a couple has $2 million, pretty hefty mortgage, I didn't put a number on it, three adult children, though, who believe mom and dad are a subscription service. You know these people?

• 31:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a lot of America. Okay, so 2 million, I'm going to say they have a big mortgage, they have 800K left, and they have three adult children that are not as independent as they'd like. No, they're not retiring.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  What do I got to do to get them there?

• 31:44Speaker 04

  They've got to get their kids in check. They have to be, their mortgage payoff has to be more within sight. Because if you are within a couple of years of no mortgage and you have 2 million, the adult children financial problem is, should be easy to solve. It's not always easy to solve. It should be easy to solve. And I would say that's a very good candidate to be able to stop working and retire.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  How about this one? You know, you drew the line there at 999. This person is not quite a million, Wes, they're at 900,000. They want to keep consulting 10 hours a week, mostly just because they enjoy it. They love doing the consulting. Retire? Wait?

• 32:25Speaker 04

  I'd say that's a yes. That's a green light retire because they love consulting. And again, it's a rarity in America that you like your job. You happen to be one of them, but it's only about one in five of us that really like what we're doing. Happy retirees work in retirement only because they want to, not because they have to. And some of the research I showed that I see where people are working in retirement, if they're doing it because there's a money gap, and they're doing part-time work because there's a money gap, that's a bad sign. So this person is very likely a good candidate. I would probably say, very likely, yes, they could retire.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  There's a guy who you fill in for fairly often, who is long, long, long retired, Clark Howard. Not only do you do your show, but you do his show often. I often point to him, Wes. I'm like, you think Clark Howard's still working because he doesn't have enough cash?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  That dude loves what he does.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  He loves it. He has an amazing team that makes it so that, and he's such a, he's so good at it. He's such a knowledge base that he can come in and just do an amazing show and do two or three of them right out of the gate, like it's no big deal. There's no reason in his mind why he would ever stop. And you're right. I don't deeply know his finances, but I can probably tell you that he has no worry about

• 33:55Speaker 02

  I bet he's okay.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  needing to have the income.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I bet he's going to be all right. You mentioned this person earlier, but I want to dive a little deeper. A household has $3 million, but every single time the market falls, they want to sell everything.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  It doesn't mean that group can't retire. It just means that they, you bring up the number four of the, out of the five, and that is the power of any sort of planning. And the reason that person wants to jump out of their portfolio, when the market cracks by 10%, which it happens to do a couple of times every year on average.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Fairly often.

• 34:31Speaker 04

  Almost always. That person doesn't have the confidence that they should have. And it's because they don't have any sort of plan that shows them why it's going to be okay. Because that person doesn't need to be an aggressive investor. They could probably be fine with a 4% to 6% rate of return. And if you're only looking at that, you shouldn't have to worry at all about the equity markets. And the last two chapters of this book are about investing. The first part of it is slaying the inflation dragon, which is essentially, in my book, a must do. It's not a nice to do. But there are ways that people can reduce their anxiety through segmenting how their assets are invested

• 35:15Speaker 04

  through different buckets, and having three years of what I call dry powder, that really should take the vast, vast, vast majority of money anxiety away.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  I've had these professors recently come out of the woodwork, and I use professors Ooh. as a derogatory statement.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  These professors talk about how poor, when you look at the science that bucketing is versus, because money's fungible, right? Because I can get any money whatever I want. So why would I use buckets? And yet, every practitioner I've ever talked to, who's great at their job, you, Dana Anspa, I talked to Ben Carlson about this, we talked to so many pros about this, they all still use bucketing, even though they know that if human emotions weren't involved, yeah, okay, maybe we don't do buckets. But it seems to me with a, with a, I just always worried when I was a financial planner, far more about you blowing up your plan than I was worried about the market.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. Listen, man, you're so right about that. And the struggle with money is that it's, the psychological tug of war that we have, we know about, which is, let's say we, we get one unit of pleasure out of our stock portfolio going up. We get two to three units of displeasure if it goes down.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:40Speaker 04

  And that imbalance, which is something that we have to deal with constantly, is an impossible thing for the human brain to just learn and be okay with. So you've got to, for the vast majority of folks, and this is why I think practitioners like to use any, and there's different versions of bucketing. If we're able to segment our assets into different time horizons and different risk tolerances in the, in the different buckets, it's tremendously helpful to do to reduce the anxiety. I read a, something from a professor recently. I always love when I see the, the research center at XYZ College says that

• 37:22Speaker 04

  if you're worried about stock market drops, and you're totally comfortable with being the richest guy in the graveyard, then set your withdrawal rate at 2% or less per year. I mean, where's that research coming from, Joe? What is, that gets into the what's the point research?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. What are we solving for?

• 37:43Speaker 04

  One of my favorite Pennsylvania phrases, what's the point of all this planning if you can't use your money to begin with?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Well, and it does make the point that you're solving this book. I feel like a big piece of the Retire Sooner Method, Wes, is let's solve for happiness. Let's not solve for more cash. Let's not solve for more, you know, richest person in the graveyard.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. And enough, Joe, is a number, right? There's, I talk about enough sleep. I talk about enough in our investable assets. That is a number that I think is attainable for folks as opposed to unreachable. Hey, you need $20 million if you think you're going to be able to retire. That just doesn't help, that doesn't help 99.9% of Americans get to the freedom they're looking for. And yeah, I'm trying to give folks a GPS in this book on how to shave off a couple of years. I mean, you get, my analogy, and I was, when I'm driving around new towns, and I'm doing that all the time with sporting events and tournaments for some of my older kids. If you leave off your GPS for like,

• 38:47Speaker 04

  like, let's say the internet's bad, and you have no signal for the first two minutes of your trip, you can double your trip time. Oh, boy, I ended up in the wrong way, on the wrong highway. And I think it's about making enough correct turns. And does it shave off a 30-minute trip? Can I do it in 28? I think if you make the right turns, you can. In 20, in two minutes off a 30-minute trip, you know, that's 6%. That's, that's four or five years.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  No big deal on a 30-minute trip, but when we talk about your retirement?

• 39:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  It's a lot more. I got one more person for you.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Person has plenty of money, no idea what they do after breakfast.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  And they're still working?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Still working. Retire, wait, need more info?

• 39:31Speaker 04

  They're a wait. Not more info. They're a wait because if they have plenty of money and they're still working. Well, I don't know. How many, do they know how many court pursuits they have?

• 39:40Speaker 02

  They have no idea.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  They have no idea. That means they don't have, they don't have enough.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Workaholic.

• 39:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. Okay. Yes. That person is no, that person is not a candidate right now. Because that person, Joe, has to spend and plenty of money could be, they probably have two, three, five, eight, 10 million. I've seen lawyers that, you know, they've been working at a firm. They're making a huge amount of money. Their 401ks, eight million. That person is not going to be happy if they stop because they don't have a set of what, what Joe Saul Sehaye calls super activities. And what I would be doing for, if I were that person and if I were helping them, I would say over the next year, you're going to, or maybe two, because it takes a while. I want

• 40:25Speaker 04

  to see how you can reduce your work time, see if you can even do it and fill that time with a handful of court pursuits. So by way, you don't even have right now. So you're going to figure out what they're going to be. And then there may be a candidate, but not right now.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Is that the person that worries you the most out of all those scenarios?

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. And those are the people that are the hardest.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  It's really hard to make a ton of money and save a ton of money. And when you've got somebody who's a 10 millionaire, they're very often, they're all, all, all in. And they have like a guilt around doing anything but work. And then when they stop, they just haven't, they can never figure out what replaces the satisfaction of work. And it's a really long journey to figure it out. But if, it's a fun to figure out for most people, but some people's really hard.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  I've got a couple more random things that I always find interesting with your research. Let's talk about the mortgage because your research found a relationship between retirement happiness and whether you pay off the mortgage or not. Talk to me about that.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  As years to pay off mortgage go down, and in the new research, which is all from 2025 and beyond, the relationship stands true, but the years are different. There is great, great power of not having any sort of mortgage. It takes a long time for most people to be able to do it. Well, let's say we have a new mortgage. There is a statistically significant lower level of overall retirement happiness. Now, it's just one variable. It doesn't mean you're unhappy if you have a 30 year mortgage. It just means that on average, these people are below the baseline. When you start to pay it down and you're within, let's call it 10 years, you're in the kind of the neutral zone, a little bit below the US happiness baseline. But you get to

• 42:16Speaker 04

  nine years or to zero. So nine years is better, eight years is better than nine, seven better than eight, et cetera. Happiness levels for this one particular category go through the roof. I don't know exactly why, but I know that there's great satisfaction knowing that your house is yours and you have no more check to one of the big banks and that's done. And the closer you are to that moment, the better.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I want to put these in relation to other things. So let's play one more quick game.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  Let's do it.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  I want to compare retirement moves. You tell me which one is likely to buy us freedom? And by freedom, I really want to talk happiness like you do. An extra $500 per month invested or eliminating a $500 monthly payment permanently, getting back to the mortgage?

• 43:03Speaker 04

  Eliminating the payment. Better.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Working two additional years or doing part-time work you love for five?

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Part-time work for five that you love.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Having one giant investment account or several reliable income sources?

• 43:22Speaker 04

  I'm going to choose several, multiple streams of income. That's even better.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  See, and for those of you that aren't watching our, our YouTube video of this, Wes is having trouble not doing the advisory seven.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Disclaimer.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  And butts.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Depending on your situation, depending on your retirement risk tolerance, et cetera, and your age and risk tolerance. That's all true.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Having another $500,000 or knowing exactly what your current money can support?

• 43:51Speaker 04

  Ooh, Joe.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  How about that one?

• 43:54Speaker 04

  Ouch. That's a hard one. 500, an extra half a million dollars or already knowing what your money supports. How much do you have? Can I, can I get more on what? Okay. I'm just going to say it is for the most part, knowing what your money supports is better than the extra 500K.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Last question, Wes. Let's reiterate something. How important was the phrase superactivity to this research?

• 44:26Speaker 04

  I think it's a really cool word and it's more memorable than what I came up with a long time ago. So I'd say it's a, it's a top five thing in the book, Joe. And I'm thankful that we, wherever that was, and you, you said, hey, what are those things? So superactivity? I'm like, hey, man, that's a good one.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  We were, we were, we were. And I couldn't remember court pursuits. I was like, you know, and we were standing around a group of us. I'm like, you know, um, yeah, couldn't think of, of, of court pursuits. Last question. One of our stackers might be able to retire tomorrow, but they'd love to get a few years of their life back. You talked about 6% more life and what that could mean, right? What's the first move you'd like them to make this week?

• 45:15Speaker 04

  Well, it's more than, if, if a stacker already has a large list of court pursuits, and I'm going to assume that they do, because these are what your listeners are well-balanced and they're more, they think more than just about the money. My thought would be being able to have plenty of cushion in retirement. I think if there's one thing you can do today that really moves the meter, it doesn't take a year to figure out your court pursuits or 10 more years to save more, or more years to pay off the mortgage. These are all long-term marathon

• 45:54Speaker 04

  type events. The sprint event in this is about drawing out your happy retiree life map, which you can do in an hour. And it's so much fun to do it. I have an example of it in the book from a listener who sent in a life map, and I redrew it. So it's in black and white. And doing the, a written timeline plan, that exercise, which is a sprint, it's short, it doesn't take, it takes literally an hour. That moves the meter so much to give you clarity and reduce the fear of running out, which puts you in a very different category than most Americans. And that is something you can do today.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  You know how much I love the timeline? I'm a huge fan of the timeline. The new book is called The Retire Sooner Method, The Five Secrets Behind America's Happiest and Unhappiest Retirees. Let's talk about the project for just a moment. How was writing this book versus writing the first two? Was it more challenging? Was it different? Do you feel like you got more clarity? Is it more of a streamlined? Tell me about the difference between this and the last two projects.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  This took the longest of all because I scrapped the first book. What I thought I wanted to do, and I started this like four years ago, is update, you can retire sooner. And I spent almost a year doing that. It was a lazy exercise because I didn't want to do a whole new book, which really is a project because you got to do a bunch of research first. And then you hope the research says something. So it's a risky proposition with your time and money to do a bunch of research and then see if the statistical significance says anything.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Can you imagine that at the front of Barnes and Noble, a book by Wes Moss called, meh, no change?

• 47:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, no change. So I was resisting doing a whole new thing out of laziness, Joe. And I wasted so much time. And I remember the day I was sitting at my kitchen counter and I said, I'm just, I remember saying like, this book update isn't good enough. I'm going to scrap the entire thing. So I wasted a year and I'm going to go ahead and do a brand new research project. And I remember saying, I don't care if it contradicts my old numbers or it comes back meh, I don't care. I'm just going to do it. And that was the epiphany that happened probably a year and a half ago. And then I did it and I spent much more time doing

• 48:29Speaker 04

  this book than I ever have, but it's because I was able to crystallize it down into the most understandable version of what I've done in my entire life. And so I like where this book ended up more than any of the other ones. It just took more work. And Joe, and Joe, another thing.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  I remember thinking like, oh, well, AI will help me because now AI is what, AI was the opposite of helpful. It was horrible. And I had to just stop using it because it led me down the wrong paths. The verbiage was always terrible. So that was another false, that was like a false front for me. I was like, oh, now the, the world has AI. We have chat, GPT and Claude. That's also a total misnomer. That actually made it worse. And I had to totally scrap all of it in order to just go back to real human beings writing and analyzing.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  I found that with my writing too. I have to use at the most a chat GPT or a Claude as an editor, as an editing help. Whenever I was like, oh, I need something pithy here. Yeah, no, no, no, God, no. Man, thank you so much for mentoring our stackers today. I super appreciate it. And I love, Wes, as you know, I love how you put it in perspective. We're not solving for more money. We're solving for more happiness. And, you know, you see people solving for longevity, people solving for this pile of money, Scrooge McDuck money, but we solve for happiness. I think we finally get where we're going. So thank you very much.

• 49:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, man. You're the man. And I love your show and I appreciate you, your support over the years and thanks for having me.

• 50:04Speaker 05

  Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and today is quite the anniversary. It's the date that the first ATM opened at a chemical bank branch in Rockville Center, New York way back in 1969. Yes, the old ATM, a place where you pull up, stick in a plastic card, the kids marvel when real money pops out, or a fun little note that tells mom and dad, or Uncle Doug, "Try again later after payday." Here's the question, when the kids are lucky enough to see money pop out of an ATM, which denomination of bill is it more likely to be than any other? I'll be back right after I go help Joe's mom celebrate the anniversary of the ATM by practicing taking money out of her account for our Sizzler Happy Hour.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Well, you may know that chaos is the name of the game here in Mom's Basement, what with guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends. Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor is made with high-quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients. You always know you're eating something that's good for you, even when you don't have time. It's ready in two minutes, whether it's lunch

• 51:29Speaker 02

  between meetings or dinner after holiday shopping. Factor requires zero prep cleanup or effort from you or mom, so you can focus on everything else in your day. Factor even has heart-smart options like the Green Goddess Bar Mundi with tomato, rice, peas, kale, and green beans, or the enchilada-style chicken and sweet potatoes. Those are so good. They're crafted with lean proteins, fiber-packed fruit and veggies, and healthy fats. Try those out. Your heart and your taste buds will thank you. For Cheryl and I, Factor has been a great way for us to stay busy and focus on family life and beating

• 52:12Speaker 02

  mom at card games. I use Factor, and you should too. So let's eat real, stackers. Head to factormeals.com/sb50off. Use code SB50OFF. And you know what? You're going to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until December 31st, 2026. That is code SB50OFF at factormeals.com, SB50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  There is a financial conversation that's coming to millions of American families, and there's a pretty good chance nobody wants to be the person who starts it. Inheritance. And here's why that matters. An estimated $124 trillion to heirs in charity is expected to be transferred by Americans over the next 20 years. It's an extraordinary amount of money, but Kiplinger's research found that 51% of adults and their parents, get this, never talk about money. And there's a pretty big disconnect. 47% of parents expect to leave a meaningful inheritance, while only 24% of adult children expect to actually receive one. Nearly 30% of parents don't even have a will in place. Maybe it's time

• 53:29Speaker 02

  we talked. Kiplinger calls it "the trillion-dollar talk," a conversation about inheritance, estate planning, wills, and the questions families should be asking before those decisions become urgent. Because knowing what your family wants and having a plan for it can be one of the most important financial conversations you will ever have. Ready to start yours? Visit kiplinger.com to learn more about the trillion-dollar talk and what this historic wealth transfer could mean for your family.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  It's incredible, at a small company like Stacking Benjamins, how one, one hire makes all the difference in the world. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on, you need the right hire. This is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed Sponsored Jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent, when workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire. This is a job for sponsored jobs. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen at other sites. Get matched with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Reach candidates

• 54:43Speaker 02

  that meet your specific criteria like skills, certifications, or locations. Sponsored Jobs boost your job post on search results, so you can reach the people that can help your business thrive. Plus, with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, you only pay for results. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute, I've been talking to you, listen to this. Companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. And sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, that's a job for Indeed Sponsored

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Jobs. And guess what? Our stackers are going to get a $75 sponsored job credit. That's you to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support Stacking Benjamins by saying you heard about Indeed in Mom's Basement. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Hey there, stackers. I'm former ATM fan and guy who just got played, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. All right, after the world's quickest trip to the ATM, man, do I have a story to tell. Joe's mom and I were going to take money from her account for Sizzler Happy Hour, right? Right? But she says the ATM needs to warm up first. So while you're listening to our second sponsor spot, she tells me, "Put my card in first so that we can get it all ready to go." I'm not wanting to disappoint. I go ahead, dip my card in, and she's like, "Oh, well, while we're here, let's just push a few buttons and make sure they work." I'm like, "All right, sure. That sounds fun." I love pushing a few buttons, right? But before you know it, there's $100 sticking out of the machine. My card's back

• 56:47Speaker 05

  in my hand. Joe's mom says, "Cool. Looks like it works." And she just takes off. That's right. It was a wham-bam, thank you ATM incident, all orchestrated by that evil genius. And now I'm paying for the Sizzler tonight. If only she used those powers for good. Here's today's question, though. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, was it the $100 bill like I received that was spit out more often, or another? The answer is, it's a $20 bill. And now here come two guys who love to reimburse a guy when he's been taken advantage of. Seriously. Oh, gee. Can I get a hundo, maybe? Or something? No? Well,

• 57:32Speaker 05

  whatever. Back to Joe and OG.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Sorry about that, Doug. But you should have known ahead of time. I mean, it's funny. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 100 times?

• 57:44Speaker 05

  She's so believable, though. She's that sweet old lady voice.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Might be a whole different issue. Huge thanks to Wes Moss for stopping by. What a phenomenal project that he's working on with retirement. Let's talk about retirement in our headline.

• 58:03Speaker 06

  Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamins headlines.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  This comes to us from the Wall Street Journal, written by our good friend Veronica Dagger and Sharada Dinesh. Retirees love dividends, but the stock market surge is making them think again. And it's funny, OG, talking to people like Veronica about this. Often, we talk about retirement. Of course, Wes just got done telling us it's not all about the money, but let's talk about the money in retirement while we're on this topic. I meet retirees all the time that go, "You know what? I don't want to sell anything off. I love this idea of a dividend. Like, heck, I can just sit on the pile of money, and I could just get dividends, and I don't have to sell anything off." And I feel like that's kind of our brain playing tricks on us, isn't it? I mean, is a dividend-taking

• 58:51Speaker 02

  strategy really the thing that, as a financial planner, you focus on most with clients?

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Focus on most? Absolutely not. No. I mean, you just have to think kind of the origin story here first of what are we talking about when we're talking about dividends? Well, a company makes profit, or that's the goal, anyway. And so if they earn a profit, they have to do something with that profit for the people that own the company. So it's real simple. If Stacking Benjamins made a profit...

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Theoretically.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  Theoretically, if that were to ever happen, you know, the owners would say, well, what are we going to do with it? We could buy more tech stuff. We could do some marketing. You know, we could invest in new people. If we kind of did all those things, there's still money left over. We got to do something with it. So you can just say, well, just keep it in the bank for later. And if that's enough, then you say, well, maybe I'll just give some out to the people that own the company. So, you know, a dividend is just another way of distributing company profit after the board has decided all the strategic objectives have been accomplished. And sometimes a strategic objective is to pay a dividend because that bolsters your company's view, you know, or whatever status in the eyes of investors.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Well, and especially, can I stop there for a second?

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's your show.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  It's your show too, which is why I asked, especially if you're a company like a railroad or a container ship company where the chance of you growing is zero. How the hell are you going to attract investors? You're not going to go, oh, you know what? We're going to increase this railroad from, you know, the tracks that we have now to a bunch of new track. That ain't happening. You're not doing that. So instead, the way you attract them is by going, hey, I know we're not going to grow the company. Instead, we will pay you this hopefully fat dividend check because we did really well.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. So basically dividends are nothing more than just a return of profit after all the other reasons for using that profit have been, you know, kind of checked off. And so you look at some companies, famously, Apple never paid a dividend for a really long time. They, they do now a little bit, but Steve Jobs was like, we'll never pay a dividend. And the reason for that was, hey, if we make a profit, we think it's better for our shareholders, for our investors. If we take that profit and reinvest it into the company, building more stuff and more tech tools and creating new things that will then drive bigger and bigger numbers in the future versus saying this would be better for us to distribute this profit. There's, look, there's no right or wrong way to do any of this stuff. Apple

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  obviously didn't pay a dividend and their stock price went up a whole bunch. That was the trade that Steve Jobs and Tim Cook and everybody else was kind of betting on. We think that we can take this money, turn it into more money by launching new products and so on and so forth. If dividend and capital appreciation, you know, is basically all the same thing in terms of what the company is, a reflection of how the company is doing from a profit standpoint, then it's kind of the same thing. Statistically, you'll have a little lower return, little lower capital appreciation return when you get a high dividend, which I guess kind of tracks. If you think about it, there's less money to be deployed

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  into R and D and so on and so forth. And statistically, if it's a high growth company that's not paying a high dividend, then maybe you get higher capital appreciation. But for our purposes, we would say that the stock market averages 10%. And that's going to include companies that pay dividends and companies that don't pay dividends or pay high dividends or pay lower dividends, right? It's just kind of a combination of all that stuff. It's all the same, all the same return of profit to shareholders, whether it comes to you via cash or otherwise. What's sexy about dividends is that it feels like a paycheck.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  It feels so like a paycheck.

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  You know, so you go, well, I've got a million bucks and they're going to send me $20,000 or $30,000 a year and I don't have to spend my million dollars. But remember that your 10% number, when you're calculating that, when you say, well, the S and P is average 10%, that includes the reinvestment of the dividends. If you're spending your dividends and you're planning on 10%, you're probably off by a little bit there.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Which is why I think during retirement retirees, and rightfully so, should have a lower return expectation because A, if you're going to lower some volatility with a piece of your portfolio because you're taking it soon. And then second, if you're spending that dividend check, then you're not going to be able to lock that in as much.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would say, you know, if I was evaluating a, you know, retirement income portfolio, I'm building the asset allocation first, and then I'm going to be smart about where the asset location is. So I want my high growth stuff in my tax free bucket. I'm going to make sure, you know, I don't have a lot of fixed income in my, in my brokerage account because it's going to pay some weird, have some weird tax issues potentially. Dividends are taxed at a preferential rate. So if I had positions that were going to issue a dividend, I would probably favor that to be in the brokerage account because of the preferential tax streams, a little bit lower tax rate on a certain amount of dividends. So I would be smart about that. And then as I'm building the cash flow, I would say, oh, well, if this

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  thing's going to deposit 11 grand in my account every year. Okay. Yeah, I can count that as income, but I'm not going to build a portfolio specifically to generate income, if that makes sense.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  The bad news on dividend paying stocks that I think some retirees don't understand is that just because a company has paid dividends quarterly forever, doesn't mean that they have to continue paying it. In fact, in Veronica's piece here, she even talks about how a lot of companies have been lowering the dividend and about how as the stock market surges, then the dividend becomes a lower piece of the puzzle. It becomes a little bit harder to find the big dividend that you thought that you had because the company isn't paying, oh, we want to pay a 7% dividend. They're paying it based on a set dollar value, not based on the stock price.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  Based on the number of shares. And so if you have a thousand shares of stock, they don't say, we're going to give you a 7% dividend. They say, we're going to pay 50 cents per share.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  And then if the stock price goes up by 3X, they're still paying 50 cents a share. Well, the percentage, you know, your income is going to stay relatively consistent, basically is what she's saying, you know, or it should stay consistent regardless of what the stock price does. And frankly, I can play a little devil's advocate. That's what maybe one of the things that's nice about the dividend piece, right? It's like, if the stock market goes down a little bit or up a little bit or whatever, I'm still getting 50 cents a share.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  50 cents is 50 cents. Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  But in the current environment, those yields, Veronica writes, no longer outpace safe alternatives, which usually is the case. As you mentioned, if you own the company, the dividend is usually higher because of the fact that you've got some volatility built in because of the stock. In this current environment, a lot of the time, the yield doesn't often outpace. But I think there's a behavioral point. I love your behavioral point of it feels like a paycheck. That's definitely a behavioral aspect of just, you know, wrapping our head around, why do we like dividends so much? I think there's that second piece that Doug alluded to in the open and that we talked about early on in this segment, which is, I've got this pile of money. I don't just sell anything, oh gee, because when I start selling anything, you know, you've worked with a lot of clients. I worked

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  with a few clients back in the day. That scares everybody. Like the second that you start eating into that capital number, people go, oh my goodness. Oh.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially if the market's going, going flat or going down the other way, which is why I think it's important to bucket out where your cash flow or where your cash needs are going to be. You know, if you're 60 years old, you're going to retire in five years. I don't think you change your investment allocation. You don't become instantly conservative and well, I'm 60, so I should have 60% of my money in bonds or some nonsense like that. You know, you're still invested long-term in equities. However, you do have to recognize the fact that at 65, you're going to need money and you know, you need $80,000 to live that year. Well, where's it coming from? I'm going to get $32,000 from social security. My spouse is going to get $17,000 from social security. Okay. Well, you're 30 grand short.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  Where's it coming from? Today at 60 is the time to think about that for 65. So you can say, okay, well, I need 30 grand when I'm 65. I'm going to need $31,000 when I'm 66. I need $32,500 when I'm 67, you know, because of inflation, ballparking it. So, okay, so I need a hundred grand. If I set that aside today, say, okay, that's my three-year number. Now I can invest the other 90% of my portfolio long-term and then just refill that bucket as I'm, you know, five, eight years out. So I always have eight-year plus money and I always have one to eight-year money, basically. Sitting and thinking about that five, seven years out from retirement is really quite key.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  It's interesting. How many times, stackers, we go back to the same, the same rubric, the same way of thinking about these things. Heck, before our greatest hits week break, we talked to attorney Tim Semro really about the same thing. It isn't about whether a trust or a will is better. You don't begin there. You begin with what am I trying to accomplish? And I think in retirement, it isn't that dividends are better, like I hear some people say, or that treasuries are better, whatever. It is begin with what I'm trying to accomplish. And I think you're much more likely to reach a place that you're comfortable with. We will link to Veronica's piece in our show notes, stackybenjamins.com. I've always liked Veronica's work. Glad to see she's making a lot of sense again. You may

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  love dividends, but dividends might not be loving you. And maybe you need to re-question whether that's where you want to head anyway.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  It brings us to the back porch. Short back porch today. I've been giving webinars for the field kit, the all in one. Keep track of all your financial life while you're out on your next adventure. So whether it's your budget, your net worth tracking, your credit, all the above. And I've gotten a lot of questions about what the field kit does. So we have a series of webinars. If you get the 201, our newsletter, and you just sign up at stack your benjamins.com/201, you'll get a full list of all of the webinar dates. We're recording this a little ahead of time. So I don't have those while we're recording, but definitely come to them. I know that when the earlier first version of this, the

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  vault was out, that does about 65% of what the field kit does. We gave some great webinars, and I know a lot of our vault users were very appreciative and could see exactly how to use it. Even people that are already signed up for it knew how to use it. So whether you've already signed up for the field kit and you're using it, or you are somebody who's wondering, is this really how to manage your money? We think so. Just go to stack your benjamins.com/201 and you'll get the 201. Now, I know some people, just for whatever reason, you don't want the 201 newsletter, don't know why you would do that. But if you don't, just email me [email protected] or DM me in the Facebook basement or on

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  social media, and I'll be sure to get that to you. All right. That's our back porch for today. Big thanks to all of you for sharing today's episode. If you know somebody who's staring at retirement, whether they're 40 or they're 70, and they're wondering, how do I create a successful retirement? As Wes says, it starts early. Send them this episode. I think you can do world of good for somebody that should be a stacker, or maybe isn't yet. One thing we do at the end of every episode, though, is we ask Doug, what should be on our to do list after today's show?

• 1:10:39Speaker 05

  Well, Joe first takes some advice from Wes Moss. Retirement, focus on community, super activities, and not just the money. By combining your love of building financial strategies with focusing on more life, you're much more likely to have a successful, happy next chapter. Second, dividends are great, but focus on more money, not just on a strategy that sounds great. There are many ways to receive income. Begin with your goals and maybe dividends will be the answer and not the other way around. But the big lesson, can someone tell Joe's mom that everyone calls Wednesday hump day? Can you also tell

• 1:11:19Speaker 05

  her that I may be old enough to wash my own mouth out with soap? Thanks to Wes Moss for joining us today. You'll find his new study on a successful retirement, the retire sooner method, wherever books are sold. We'll include links in our show notes. And also, we've been featuring it in the 201 newsletter. If you get the newsletter, just click that link. We'll also include links in our show notes at stackingbenjamins.com. This show is the property of SB Podcast LLC copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Saul Sehi. You'll find out about our awesome team at stackingbenjamins.com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come

• 1:12:04Speaker 05

  say hello. And oh, yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  It's incredible at a small company like stacking Benjamins, how one, one hire makes all the difference in the world. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on, you need the right hire. This is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. When workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Hiring indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen at other sites. Get matched

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Reach candidates that meet your specific criteria like skills, certifications, or locations. Sponsored jobs boost your job post on search results. So you can reach the people that can help your business thrive. Plus with Indeed sponsored jobs, you only pay for results. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, listen to this. Companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. And sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes, less stress, less time, more results.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, that's a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And guess what? Our stackers are going to get a $75 sponsored job credit. That's you to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support stacking Benjamins by saying you heard about Indeed in mom's basement. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Welcome to the after show. I've had people ask us, like, what kind of things do we talk

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  about while we're getting ready to record? This is a little snippet of the complex and mentally stimulating conversations we have backstage before we're recording a show.

• 1:15:33Speaker 03

  This is all gonna get on the, on the clip at the end of the year.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  Lesson, don't start Land War Asia, Doug.

• 1:15:43Speaker 03

  I just watched that with my daughter. I mean, we got about 80% of the way through it. She had to go to bed, but she was like, this is a pretty good movie. And I'm like, yes, it's like one of the all time greatest movies in history.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we took a road trip out west when our kids were like eight. Cheryl read the book because you know who it was? It was Mark Chucci. Do you remember Mark Chucci? Josh, Mark Chucci told me to read the book because I was like, God, I love that. He goes, he goes, get the Princess Bride book because you know, the whole thing, I'm going to go Montoya, you killed my father, prepared to die. There's a whole chapter about his dad and how his dad got killed by that dude.

• 1:16:23Speaker 03

  The Stick Finger Man.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they just had to kill it for time.

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  I think it's crazy when you watch that movie to go back and see who all those actresses and actors are.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  You know, and like what they also did, like Anigo Montoya was the CIA director of Homeland.

• 1:16:41Speaker 05

  Mandy Patinkin.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Andy Patinkin.

• 1:16:43Speaker 05

  One of the biggest stage actors on Broadway. He's massive.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, huge, huge. You know, like Robin Wright pen or Robin Wright, I guess, as she was, you know, at that time.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, the stuff she did afterwards. Billy Crystal.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, Billy Crystal.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Andre the Giant.

• 1:16:58Speaker 05

  Probably the person who did the least was, well, if you don't count Andre the Giant, because he didn't live much longer after that, was who was the guy who was the main character? I don't even know his name right now.

• 1:17:11Speaker 03

  Carl Hughes or something? Was that not?

• 1:17:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, Carrie Elwes.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  I saw him recently on a show and I'm like, oh my goodness. And he was a great, he was a villain on a show.

• 1:17:22Speaker 05

  He's around, but he didn't get nearly as big as you would have expected.

• 1:17:29Speaker 03

  He did not get as famous as.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Princess Bride.

• 1:17:32Speaker 05

  Who was the, the priest was from Monty Python.

• 1:17:36Speaker 03

  That was what my brother's speech was at our wedding.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Wolf.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  He goes, my wedge, my wedge is what brings us together today.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  Did he really do it?

• 1:17:50Speaker 03

  Yes. He goes, woof, true of.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  That's so good. All right, Steve, see if you can couple that together and do a short after show.

• 1:18:03Speaker 05

  Just make a show, Steve. See ya.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, Steve, we're done. Make that work.