Mel Robbins: The Morning Habit That Rewires Your Brain SB1889

Before Mel Robbins became one of the most recognized names in personal development, she was $800,000 in debt, unemployed, and numbing the panic with bourbon most nights by six o'clock. She knew exactly what she needed to do to climb out. Knowing wasn't the problem. Taking the first step was. That gap, between knowing and doing, is exactly what this conversation is about, and it's why Mel's simplest tool, a five-second countdown and a high five in the mirror, has been validated by neuroscience, adopted by veterans' organizations treating PTSD, and linked to real behavior change in ways that go well beyond feel-good advice. This episode originally aired in 2021 and earned its spot in our Greatest Hits lineup because the core idea hasn't aged a day. What You'll Walk Away With The five-second rule Mel used to physically interrupt anxiety and get out of bed during her lowest financial pointWhy knowing what to do with your money is almost never the real obstacle, and what actually isThe surprising research linking high-fives among NBA teams to which teams went on to win championshipsWhy so many people feel resistance instead of relief the first time they try this exercise, and what that resistance is actually telling youThe neuroscience behind why a simple physical gesture can interrupt a negative thought spiral more effectively than positive self-talkWhy self-worth tied to a bank balance, a job title, or a number on a scale tends to collapse the moment things go wrongA genuinely surprising story about grief, intuition, and a decision that changed the direction of Mel's entire familyWhy This Matters Now You probably already know several things you should be doing with your money right now. That's rarely the hard part. The hard part is closing the gap between knowing and doing, especially in moments of stress, shame, or overwhelm, exactly the moments financial setbacks tend to create. Building a habit of small, immediate self-support, showing up for yourself before you've accomplished anything, turns out to be one of the most overlooked tools for actually following through on the financial changes you already know you need to make. From the Basement A headline segment on modern, lower-fee annuities gets a healthy dose of skepticism, and a TikTok "wealth hack" involving margin loans gets thoroughly, hilariously debunked, a good reminder that not everything that sounds clever on social media survives contact with how markets actually work. Resources Mentioned The High 5 Habit by Mel Robbins https://melrobbins.com/high-five-habit — Mel's book on the science-backed daily practiceStacking Benjamins Field Kit https://fieldkitfinance.com — the all-in-one financial organization tool referenced in the updated intro See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Maybe it's time we talked. Kiplinger calls it the trillion dollar talk, a conversation about inheritance, estate planning, wills, and the questions families should be asking before those decisions become urgent, because knowing what your family wants and having a plan for it can be one of the most important financial conversations you will ever have. Ready to start yours? Visit kiplinger.com to learn more about the trillion dollar talk and what this historic wealth transfer could mean for your family.

• 0:32Speaker 01

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Well, hey there, stacker. If you're new here, I'm Joe Saul Sehi. And before we get rolling today, I want to give you a little behind the scenes on this episode. One of the really cool things about Wednesdays here at Mom's Basement is we get to sit across the card table from some of the biggest names each week in business, personal finance, and thought leadership. Over the years, we've had people like Morgan Housel, Annie Duke, Scott Galloway, James Clear, Seth Godin, Mrs. Dow Jones, Haley Sacks, a whole bunch of other people who apparently didn't do enough research before they agreed to come down to a basement. But we've been very lucky and fortunate, and we're actually proud of the smart people. We've been able to help educate you about your money. We've actually

• 1:45Speaker 00

  been able to get to help educate you about your money, I should say. And today's guest definitely belongs on that list. This is Mel Robbins. And here's what I love about this conversation. We spend a lot of time around here talking about what you should do with your money, you know, save more, invest, get organized, have a plan. But knowing isn't usually the problem, is it? Like, you probably already know three or four things you should be doing with your money that you're not doing right now. Even as I bring it up, you know. The hard part is getting yourself to start. And that's actually exactly why I wanted you to hear this conversation with Mel. She talks about a point in her own life when she was 800,000, imagine this, $800,000 in debt, had lost her job, creditors are calling, and she knew what she needed to do. But knowing and actually taking that

• 2:28Speaker 00

  step are two completely different things. Okay, now for the behind the scenes part, we originally released this episode on September 27, 2021. We're pulling it out of the basement vault for Greatest Hits Week because listening to it again, nearly five years later, trying to figure out what goes on Greatest Hits Week, the central idea is the same today. And if you're new here, there's something else you should know before we hit play. We used to structure our Wednesdays a little differently. So if you've only been around for a year or two, back then, with the mentor was upstairs talking to mom, but OG and I would tackle a headline first. And in this case, we're talking annuities on today's show. So don't

• 3:12Speaker 00

  start yelling on your phone, where's Mel? She's upstairs with mom. She's gonna be down shortly. The old format also means that you have the ad breaks earlier than you're used to on the current show. The upside of that, though, once we get into the back half, you're through them all. Consider it eating your vegetables right before mom lets you have dessert. One more thing we didn't have in 2021, Field Kit Finance. It's funny, we spent years telling stackers that knowing isn't enough. You got to get organized, and you actually have to do something. And that fits in also with this episode, too. We've now built a place to help you get your financial life together. So taking that next step is easier. FieldKitFinance.com if you want to check it out. So longtime stackers, see what you remember here. New stackers, welcome to what Wednesdays used to sound like around

• 3:57Speaker 00

  here. And everybody else, let's head back to September 27, 2021. Here's OG, me, one headline, and then the one and only Mel Robbins.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Who's with me?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  All right, let's do this, people.

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Live from Joe's Mom's Basement, it's The Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  I'm Joe's Moms Neighbor Doug. And on today's show, we welcome lawyer, commentator, and author Mel Robbins. Think you can't get to where you're going? Mel's gonna help you high five your way to success. Plus, are annuities finally changing? Maybe. We'll explain innovation in the insurance industry during our headline segment. Later, we'll throw out the Haven Lifeline to a lucky listener, and I'll thrill you with my amazing trivia. And now, two guys who are ready to help you start an amazing week, it's Joe and O J J J J J G.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yes, we are. Hey, everybody. I am Joe Saul Sehi, Average Joe Money on Twitter. And across the card table from me, it is the man, the myth, the legend, the OG. I almost went into like a big.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  Why are you yelling?

• 5:39Speaker 00

  I'm not even trying to compete with Doug. How are you, man?

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Don't. Good. I'm enjoying the fall-like temperatures.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  It is so amazing. Here in Texas, we can actually sit outside in the middle of the day. What's that all about?

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Definitely not used to. Although I don't mind the warm weather either. So this is kind of fun.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Not me.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  It's all good.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  You and Cheryl on that train, not me. You know me, January, I'll be very happy. Fire in the fireplace there for like three days. That's a great thing to do. We got a great show today, by the way. We've got Mel Robbins here, the Mel Robbins. If you aren't familiar with Mel and her specific brand of motivational talk, you know how some of the motivational speakers out there, OG, kind of sappy, kind of syrupy, kind of just, it kind of just washes off, you know, just, yeah, it's like sugar. That's not Mel Robbins. That is not Mel Robbins at all. You're about to see, she's upstairs talking to mom right now. But first.

• 6:35Speaker 04

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• 7:39Speaker 00

  Well, you may know the chaos is the name of the game here in Mom's Basement, what with guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is, prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends. Well, that's where Factor comes in. Factor is made with high-quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients. You always know you're eating something that's good for you, even when you don't have time. It's ready in two minutes, whether it's lunch

• 8:19Speaker 00

  between meetings or dinner after holiday shopping. Factor requires zero prep, cleanup, or effort from you or mom, so you can focus on everything else in your day. Factor even has heart smart options like the Green Goddess Baramundi with tomato, rice, peas, kale, and green beans, or the enchilada-style chicken and sweet potatoes. Those are so good. They're crafted with lean proteins, fiber-packed fruit and veggies, and healthy fats. Try those out. Your heart and your taste buds will thank you. For Cheryl and I, Factor has been a great way for us to stay busy and focus on family life and beating mom

• 9:03Speaker 00

  at card games. I use Factor, and you should too. So let's eat real, stackers. Head to factormeals.com/sb50off. Use code SB50OFF. And you know what? You're going to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until December 31, 2026. That is code SB50OFF at factormeals.com, SB50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  All right, we've got an incredible headline. Can't wait to dive into this topic, one that I know you're all looking forward to annuities. So let's get this party started.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Our headline today is a weight paper written by Pacific Life. So consider the source, right? It is an annuity insurer, but I found it interesting that someone from Pacific Life would do this. This is K. Oriam Williams, JD, LLM, and CFP are his designations. And it says, annuity innovation in the RIA world. And I know, oh gee, that historically, there've been some issues with RIAs, even if they liked an annuity in a situation recommending the annuity because of all the problems with annuities.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, most people just kind of shy away from them because of all, all the baggage.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  But I also know that if the advisor was going to charge a fee, there was also some issue around taxation, right?

• 10:40Speaker 04

  I haven't heard the issue about taxation, but.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  They couldn't take money out of an annuity to pay an RIA fee because of the fact that it would be.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can see that being, being an issue. I thought that that's been solved by now, but again, just one of the other layers of complexity, right?

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, this piece says, so why is a retirement strategy with such utility been ignored by fiduciary financial professionals? Some professionals were discouraged by the design and complexity previously associated with annuities. The only word I take some umbrage with is the word previously associated. Don't we, don't we kind of still look at annuity design and complexity for the most part and think, yeah, no, thanks.

• 11:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's still going on, of course.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Incompatibility was another reason previously annuities could not be integrated within the fiduciary business model. The inability to fairly compensate oneself without a potential conflict of interest was historically a deal breaker for fiduciary financial professionals. Traditional annuities, and here's where traditional variable annuities really get under a lot of people's skin, charged administrative fees, mortality and expense fees, fund fees, surrender fees, and fees for optional benefits like guaranteed income or death benefits. Cost average three to 4% before returns present a roadblock that fiduciary financial professionals just couldn't get past.

• 12:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. And then you compounded by saying a lot of those are in qualified plans and the issues that lie, lie with why have a qualified account inside of a qualified account and all that sort of nonsense? So yeah, if you've got a hurdle rate of three or two or 4% a year before you even make a dollar, it's pretty tough.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  That's a monster number to overcome. So it says, enter today's modern annuity. New fee based annuities can save clients up to 80% in product costs when compared to traditional commission based annuities.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Stripping away some fees. Does that excite you?

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Sure. 80% off of 4% is still a percent left, but we're moving in the right direction.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's one of a few features. One thing I like about this piece is it actually talks about why people would use an annuity. And I want to walk through this because I feel like annuities is a product and rightfully so with all those fees get a really, really bad name. And I think that it's been justified that people say, don't use an annuity. And this piece says, though, like, what's the positive of annuity? Well, number one, provide guaranteed income strategies.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Well, and that's what they were started with, right? If you go back to the beginning of it before all the extra stuff that you're talking about before the product fees and before the expense ratios for the subaccounts and before the guaranteed benefits and all that other sort of stuff were added as, you know, bells and whistles. What an annuity is, is just a backwards life insurance policy. You put the money in and now they guarantee that you're going to take out a certain amount every single year, every single month for the rest of your life, no matter how long you live. And so it's a really great longevity tool, absent inflation. The downside, even with that, is that as you start factoring in the inflation that can happen over one's lifetime, you know, you, you can still run sideways on the, on the long-term outcomes.

• 13:59Speaker 04

  But if you go back to a traditional annuity, the way it was built and, and say, well, I've got this known expense and I can pay for it with this known stream of income, sometimes that is very helpful.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  I think for somebody who's really, really conservative, that would be just, just a, I was gonna say a lifesaver, not really a lifesaver, but I think a lot of what we want to do during our retirement years is not worry. And I think if I know I got this guaranteed income stream is at least a part of this, like, don't, I don't have to worry about that. And I can put that on the back shelf.

• 14:31Speaker 04

  You kind of create your own pension. I'm just super concerned about longevity and using it from, with respect to inflation and the impacts there. But I think if you also think of it as a tool that you don't have to use right away, you know, and say, well, I don't have to turn it on when I'm 65, I can turn it on when I'm 82. And now that income number is going to be much higher because your likelihood of living, you know, 30 years is pretty low at 80. So you get, you get that return of capital much quicker and you're at the time and place when inflation would take over, right? You're 20 years into retirement. That's kind of when you're going to start feeling the effects of it.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Second reason it says people may use annuities, de-risk portfolios by incorporating advisory indexed annuities as a bond or fixed income complement. So instead of using a bond or a fixed income piece, put an annuity in there instead.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Well, right now, fixed annuities or, or index annuities, which are different things, have a much higher rate of return from an interest standpoint than your traditional stable value fund, you know, your cash or, well, I mean, the 10-year treasury is at one and something percent right now. So if you can go get two or three in a product that's guaranteed to produce that, you know, that's a fixed income type thing.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Which is interesting because I've always heard when we talk about indexed annuities, the letters we always get from people are around, hey, this advisor says that I can participate in the S and P 500, but not take any of the risk. This isn't saying to use it that way. This is saying, hey, use and use an S and P 500 indexed annuity, but use it as a bond instead.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  Well, and that's just how the, the mechanism of it actually works. If you.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  It makes a bunch more sense to me though, this way than it does the other way.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, it doesn't make any sense the other way.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  The math works out to make it turn into a fixed income type product.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  It says, lower taxable income for high earning clients. This is written for advisors, by relocating tax inefficient mutual funds into mirrored tax deferred subaccounts.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Barf.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, thank you. Defer and potentially reduce high taxes within irrevocable trusts. Wouldn't you go right to a life insurance policy?

• 16:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know that, I don't know that I've ever heard of anybody using an annuity in a, your vocal trust, but.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Well, you know, stretch provisions have been taken away. We're getting a little nerdy now, guys. This is definitely inside baseball for, for financial planners, but allow beneficiaries to control their inheritances through non-qualified stretch provision. I never thought about the fact that if you have an annuity, you could do what you used to be able to do with the stretch IRA rules. Just do it on your own.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I still think the vast majority of annuity money is qualified. So you're talking about some small percentage of some small percentage at this point.

• 17:12Speaker 00

  Do you think annuities are turning the corner? That with these lower fee annuities out there, stripping away all these SBS and now we're getting the fees on some of these under 1%? That maybe we see a cost value benefit that makes sense for some people or no?

• 17:27Speaker 04

  Well, we're moving in that direction, but still from a sales standpoint, they're not going to happen until the market has a substantially long and deep market correction. Nobody cares about safety and security when your NASDAQ stock fund is going up 17%. You know, it's like, I don't need safety and security. I need twice as much of that. So they'll have their resurgence again. Sadly, I think that, you know, it'll be focused on the wrong people at the wrong time and with the wrong product. We've been on record to say that it's not annuities that are bad. It's the application of them that are bad. So if you have a defined need that has a specific time period and a certain dollar amount associated with it, it can be a tool that, you know, that you

• 18:09Speaker 04

  can use, but you got to be careful of those, all those other bells and whistles, which is why it makes it so much more complex, which is why people just say, I'm just going to put it.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Stay away. Yep. Stay away. Yeah. Well deserved reputation for not, for way too complex, way too many fees. Hey, it's time for our Tik Tok Minute OG. This is the segment of the show where we either A, share a Tik Tok video that's inspirational and maybe motivational, or we share one that is maybe not great information. Which one do you think we have today for everybody?

• 18:44Speaker 04

  Definitely inspirational.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Well, let's see. The cool thing about this, it starts off well with our friend Rachel Richards, who we just saw again at FinCon in Austin. Rachel has a monster Tik Tok following and 35,000 people saw this one. You'll see it in our show guide as well, but you're actually going to hear it right now. Rachel, take it away.

• 19:07Speaker 06

  Things that wealthy people know that the average person doesn't, part one.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  I'm not paying any taxes on this because I'm going to get a margin loan. And when you get loans on your stocks, you don't owe any taxes, baby.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  That's all you do. You get about, you get $200,000 worth of stocks and you just take a loan on it. There you go. And the brokerage company must let you have that forever.

• 19:31Speaker 04

  They actually do. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, they just charge you a crap load of interest. Margin loans right now, depending on where you're at, but margin loans can be eight or 9% depending on the amount and PS, they will take your stock if the stock market goes down. And what's really interesting that people don't really appreciate or think about is you have to stay invested that entire time. So let's say that you have $200,000, the brokerage company will let you have another 200,000, right? They'll say, hey, you've got 200,000 of Apple stock? No problem. Here's a check for 200 grand. You do whatever you want with it. So he's kind of sort of right. You could take a loan on your money. Totally fine. P.S. That the meters run in a thousand bucks a month of interest. And where do you think they take that from?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  They take that from your cash account, which makes you go further into margin because you're already 200,000 in the hole. And now let's say that you go, oh, I don't want to own Apple anymore. I'm going to own Amazon instead. And you sell your Apple stock. Well, that zeros out your margin loan and your account balance at the same time. Now you have no money and no stock.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Hey, but you didn't pay any tax.

• 20:38Speaker 04

  You didn't.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  You didn't pay any tax. That's, that's the good news.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Important part.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Oh, beware TikTok videos. Thank you for Rachel for sharing that with us and kind of meta. I was pointing to Rachel, who's pointing out another person. Good stuff there. We'll link to all of that on our show notes page. And of course, on our guide with some more links and fun stuff in our guide to the show, stackingbenjamins.com/stacker is the name of our guide. All right. I think it's time for us to move over, my friend. I got Doug coming down. Here he comes. All right, have a seat here, Doug. Take it.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and welcome to the best part of this podcast. My trivia. Settle in, massage your temples for a moment and prepare to have your brain blown. Ready? Here we go. What is the definition of compound interest? Can you define it? We'll see as soon as I check out Joe's mom's definition.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Well, you may know that chaos is the name of the game here in mom's basement. What with guests coming in and out, Cooper, the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge bookends. Well, that's where factor comes in. Factor is made with high quality ingredients that you recognize and trust with over 175 banned ingredients. You always know you're eating something that's good for you, even when you don't have time. It's ready in two minutes, whether it's lunch between meetings or dinner after holiday shopping.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  Factor requires zero prep, cleanup or effort from you or mom. So you can focus on everything else in your day. Factor even has heart smart options like the green goddess barramundi with tomato rice, peas, kale and green beans, or the enchilada style chicken and sweet potatoes. Those are so good. They're crafted with lean proteins, fiber packed fruit and veggies and healthy fats. Try those out. Your heart and your taste buds will thank you. For Cheryl and I, factor has been a great way for us to stay busy and focus on family life and beating mom at card games. I use factor and you should too.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  So let's eat real stackers. Head to factormeals.com/sb50off. Use code sb50off. And you know what? You're going to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until December 31st, 2026. That is code sb50off at factormeals.com, sb50off at factormeals.com. See website for more details.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  There is a financial conversation that's coming to millions of American families and there's a pretty good chance nobody wants to be the person who starts it. Inheritance. And here's why that matters. An estimated $124 trillion to heirs and charity is expected to be transferred by Americans over the next 20 years. It's an extraordinary amount of money, but Kiplinger's research found that 51% of adults and their parents, get this, never talk about money. And there's a pretty big disconnect. 47% of parents expect to leave a meaningful inheritance while only 24% of adult children expect to actually receive one. Nearly 30% of parents don't even have a will in place.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  Maybe it's time we talked. Kiplinger calls it the trillion dollar talk, a conversation about inheritance, estate planning, wills, and the questions families should be asking before those decisions become urgent, because knowing what your family wants and having a plan for it can be one of the most important financial conversations you will ever have. Ready to start yours? Visit kiplinger.com to learn more about the trillion dollar talk and what this historic wealth transfer could mean for your family.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  It's incredible at a small company like stacking Benjamins, how one, one hire makes all the difference in the world. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on, you need the right hire. This is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. When workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Hiring indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen at other sites. Get matched with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need.

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• 26:26Speaker 00

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• 27:06Speaker 03

  Hey there, stackers. I'm noted intellect, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And do you have your definition of compound interest ready? Think you got this one? I hope it's better than Joe's mom's definition, which is that compound interest is the money you would have made on the fifth race, which was the profit from the winnings on the third and fourth race. If that freaking nomad's belly flop hadn't died on the last furlong back in the second race. Well, I'm not sure she's completely wrong. Harvard Business School online says that compound interest, and I quote, refers to interest on interest. Rather, when you're investing or saving, compound interest is earned on the amount you deposited, plus any interest you've accumulated over time.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  While it can grow your savings, it can also increase your debt. Compound interest is charged on the initial amount you were loaned as well as the expenses added to your outstanding balance over time. So if Joe's mom borrowed money for that bet, which I think is what's making her a little bit itchy and scratchy today, she'll owe Louis the loan shark nearly double in about 10 days. See how it works now? Let's compound your interest in this podcast because the one and only Mel Robbins is here. Let's say hello.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  And here she comes down the stairs to mom's basement. It's Mel Robbins. How are you?

• 28:33Speaker 06

  I'm good. What an interesting place to do this.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not as creepy as you thought though, right?

• 28:39Speaker 06

  Uh, I'll reserve judgment on that one.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  She's like, I'll tell you 20 minutes, Joe. I want to start off, uh, man, just there's so many places Mel that we can start here, but let's start with you. $800,000 in debt and having some, and I'm going to say this in air quotes. I know it's an audio podcast, but air quotes fun with bourbon, uh, which didn't sound like you were having much fun. Tell me that story.

• 29:05Speaker 06

  I thought that this was a show about money and happiness. We're going to go here? No, I'm just kidding. You know, I will tell you that story and I'll also tell you that what's interesting about my career is that my brand of personal development and improving your life involves completely screwing up your life first, and then having to figure out how to build a ladder to climb out of the hole that either has happened to you or you've dug for yourself. And so this particular moment in our life is going to take us all the way back to the year 2008. Anybody else have a terrible year in 2008? The housing recession here in the United States?

• 29:46Speaker 00

  I was, I was just thinking, I think half the world had a horrible 2008.

• 29:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, you know, this is not a remarkable story, but it's a relatable one. So my husband goes into the restaurant business after getting laid off from a corporate job because it had always been a dream. And the first location that he and his best friend opened up a little pizza joint outside of Boston, Massachusetts is a total home run. And so we are complete morons and we cash out our entire life savings, kids, college funds, 401ks. We get a home equity line because that's free money. We then max out the credit cards and we shove it all into expanding this restaurant business.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 30:25Speaker 06

  Because what could possibly go wrong? And 2008 hits. And one of the things that we've since learned is that one out of every four locations in a restaurant business will fail when you're first expanding. And it happened to be the second one. And that second one happened to be three times more expensive than we thought, happened to be a dog of a location. And so next thing you know, 2008 hits, we're upside down. The liens hit the house, we're 800 grand in debt. I lose my job. The phone is ringing off the hook by creditors. And so I finally unplugged the phone. At the age of 41, I never anywhere in my life planner on my vision board placed an

• 31:06Speaker 06

  image of a unemployed woman who was drunk by six o'clock at night on Manhattan's, who was about to lose everything. But that's exactly what happened. And so when the you know, what hit the fan in my life, I rose to the occasion, like a lot of high functioning adults do, by drinking myself. Into the ground to try to numb the pain and screaming at my husband every time I saw him. And ironically, those two things didn't really help.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, sounds healthy, Mel. What's wrong with that?

• 31:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, a little numbing out and anger release. Well, you know, and the other thing that happened is I would constantly give myself these pep talks at night, like, okay, that's it. Tomorrow morning, it's the new you. And the thing about life is that we know what we need to do. We do. Like, that's the easy part. I knew I needed to get a job. I knew this wasn't Chris's fault. I knew we were doing the best we could. I knew that I had to get the kids on the bus. I knew I had to stop isolating myself. I knew I had to ask my parents for help. But I couldn't make myself do those things. And so one night, as crazy as it sounds, I was sitting there basically saying to myself, that's it, Mel. Tomorrow morning, when that alarm goes off, you can't lay there like a pot roast marinating in fear. You have got to get out of bed.

• 32:21Speaker 06

  And all of a sudden, a rocket ship launches across the television screen, and I have this crazy idea that maybe if I moved fast enough, maybe I wouldn't be in that bed when the anxiety hit. And the next morning, when the alarm went off, that's the first time I use this thing I call the five second rule, which is basically the moment you have an impulse to do something, you have to move within five seconds, or else your brain will kill it with anxiety, or doubt, or overthinking, or procrastination. Those are all habits in your mind. And so the alarm goes off, I feel myself resisting. I don't want to. It's cold. I don't care. How's this gonna help? And I just started counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one. And all of a sudden, I stood up.

• 33:05Speaker 06

  And the truth is, as I sit here and tell you this story, that was 13 years ago on a Tuesday morning in February in 2008. If I hadn't counted backwards that morning, my life would have spiraled in a different direction. And I believe that we are all one decision away from a different life. I really believe that. I have gone on to use five, four, three, two, one. You know, I used it at that moment in life to keep getting out of bed, to put down the bourbon, to stop screaming at Chris, to five, four, three, two, one, pick up the phone and start networking for a job. Five, four, three, two, one, ask for help. And one decision at a time, one push at a time, using this tool. I would interrupt the fear and the anxiety and the overthinking, something that psychologists call a bias towards thinking.

• 33:51Speaker 06

  And I started to five, four, three, two, one, push myself to be the kind of person that had a bias toward action. Because you can't think your way to something new. You gotta act your way there. And so it was a little brain hack that I then shared on a stage in 2011. That little talk went viral, and the rest is history. It's gone on to change millions of people's lives. It's been validated by incredible science. And I think one of the things that I'm the most proud of is we have veterans organizations using this five, four, three, two, one to interrupt patterns associated with trauma and help vets reprogram the triggers associated with PTSD. We have pediatricians using it to help kids with OCD and anxiety.

• 34:32Speaker 06

  And we know of more than 111 people who have stopped themselves from attempting suicide by counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, and asking for help.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  It's interesting that it seems like such a little, I hate the word hack, but it seems like this, but it does, it seems like this one little thing that changes everything. And that's the same thing here that you have with the high five. By the way, I went back when we knew you were coming on, and we did some research on the high five. Do you know how long the high five's been around?

• 35:03Speaker 06

  No.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  19, apparently. This is the first recorded high five is 1977. And it was, it was the, yeah, doesn't this seem like it should have been around like, you know, like Ben Franklin's high five and, you know, all the other fathers of the country and, and everybody when, you know, we're winning the revolution or what? Nope, none of that. 1977, a baseball game between the Los Angeles Dodgers and the Houston Astros. Dodgers outfielder Dusty Baker, now a very successful baseball manager as well, high-fived his teammate Glenn Burke, became a thing, and now it's led to this, this superbook, so.

• 35:41Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  But what's interesting-

• 35:43Speaker 06

  That's so cool. Thank you for sharing that with me. I had no idea.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I didn't, what, I just wondered, I'm like, how long has this been around? Because you talk so much about the science of the high five, because like a lot of people, when I start reading, okay, it's as easy, whatever, a high five. And then you go through the science of it. Holy crap, Mel. You talk about how with NBA teams, there's a correlation between high fives and winning?

• 36:06Speaker 06

  Yes, this is bananas. So they did this study about high fives in the NBA. And you can, you can figure out who is going to be in the championship rounds at the end of the season by examining one set of behavior in the preseason. It's the teams that have the most number of back pats, fist bumps, and high fives that go on to win. And also, it's the teams with the least number of pats on the back and high fives and fist bumps in the preseason that tend to be in the bottom. And the answer, the question is why? Well, the reason why is because a high five is more than a gesture. It communicates trust and partnership. Like, when you think about a high five

• 36:51Speaker 06

  and somebody raises their hand, you never raise your hand to high five somebody and be like, you suck. That's not what the gesture means. The gesture communicates, I got you, I trust you, we're in this together. You can do this. If a teammate blows a free throw and you high five him after it, it's like, shake it off, you got this. It's all about encouragement, support, momentum, celebration, which by the way, also validated by research, is the single most motivating force on the planet, particularly when you're facing a challenge.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Which is, it's so amazing to me, though, how you, how you, you stumbled on this. Luckily, Mel, it didn't take $800,000 of debt and a bunch of Manhattans to, to get this one.

• 37:36Speaker 06

  No, it only took a pandemic. Now, this is not a pandemic book, by the way. But the story, the origin story is about three weeks into the pandemic, when at this moment in my life, in kind of April of 2020, I have had my daytime talk show canceled, so I've been fired from my dream job. I have had a book contract canceled, not the high five book. I wasn't even working on it then. I was trying to write another book. My publisher cancels that contract because I was a year late in distributing the manuscript. And by the way, they then wanted money back that I had already spent. The PPP loans were not a thing yet, and so I'm now thinking, how the hell am I gonna make payroll? On top of that, every single speech that I had booked for a year, boom, boom, boom, gone.

• 38:20Speaker 06

  So now I'm triggered. 13 years ago, I was in financial freefall. Are you kidding me? I'm 51. I've worked this hard. I'm gonna have to reinvent myself again. How am I gonna take care of payroll? Plus, my kids are now home, college has imploded, it's a tsunami of emotions. And one morning, I wake up, and everybody can relate to this feeling. You wake up and you stare at the ceiling and you feel completely beaten down by life. You feel overwhelmed. And I use the five second rule, five, four, three, two, one. I drag myself out of bed. I drag myself into the bathroom. I'm standing there brushing my teeth in my underwear. As I'm brushing my teeth, I catch my reflection in the mirror.

• 39:02Speaker 06

  And I think, oh my God, you look like hell. And I started picking apart the woman I saw in the mirror. The dark circles under her eyes, the saggy neck, one boobs hanging lower than the other, the gray hairs coming in. The woman looked exhausted and beaten down. I actually felt sad for the person I saw in the mirror. And here's the funny thing, Joe. If you had walked into the bathroom that morning, I would have been able to spin on a dime. I would have been able to be like, Joe, I know, it sucks. It's not fair. You're right, Joe. But you know what? If anybody can handle this, it's you. I would have been able to lift you up. I would have been able to motivate you.

• 39:43Speaker 06

  But standing there alone, overwhelmed by life, I couldn't think of a darn thing to say. And you know, I don't think I would have believed it because I didn't feel empowered or encouraged.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I can't tell you, Mel, how many times I've been that person. Like, as I was reading this, I had been that person in so many days. And I'm sure most of us listening have been that person.

• 40:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a very common experience. And in fact, you know, people in habit research and, you know, personal development talk a lot about morning routines, but they skip the part that everybody has a habit nobody talks about. And that is standing before the mirror and either ignoring yourself or picking yourself apart. I don't know what came over me, but for whatever reason, as cheesy as it sounds, standing there without a bra on, I hadn't even had a cup of coffee yet, I raised my hand and I gave the woman I saw a high five. And look, Joe, lightning didn't strike. It's not like I won the, like, it's not like my life changed right then. I, I, you know, I literally- Yeah, no, it's not like, oh, that's not what happened.

• 40:52Speaker 06

  I literally felt this tiny, like, little kind of shift. My shoulders dropped, my chin lifted up. I laughed because it was so pathetic. But something shifted. I kind of felt this thing like, okay, now, stop licking your wounds, get out there. It was the second morning, though, Joe, that really something shifted. Again, I wake up, same overwhelm, same everything. I, five, four, three, two, one, get out of bed. I make the bed so I don't crawl back into it. I drag myself toward the bathroom, and then this is when it hit me. I felt something I have never felt in my entire life, and it's this.

• 41:35Speaker 06

  You know, when you go to meet a friend that you really like for a cup of coffee or something, and you're about to walk into that cafe, what do you feel?

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Feel uplifted, I'm excited, I'm ready to go.

• 41:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, I actually felt that-

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Some anticipation-

• 41:51Speaker 06

  About seeing myself. Yes. You know, in 53 years of being on this planet, I have never felt that. I've felt excited to see an outfit. I've felt excited to see what a hairstyle might look like. I have never felt excited to see the human being, Mel Robbins. And so I walked into the bathroom, kind of with the sense that something profound was happening. And it was this weird moment because I think for the first time, I realized that every morning in the bathroom, there's me standing- Standing there and there's a human being in the mirror that needs me. And it's so easy in life to let your thoughts drift to everything you need to do for everybody else.

• 42:34Speaker 06

  But this moment every morning is this extraordinary moment for you. Recent research from Harvard shows that simply taking less than a minute to reflect and set an intention about how you're going to show up today as a leader. It changes your focus, it changes your productivity, it changes how you show up, which changes how you impact people. And I want you to take this moment for you. I want you to look at the human being, forget the body. Look at the human being in the mirror because that's the one person that you're going to spend your whole life with. And you've been ignoring and criticizing them. And I want you to simply ask yourself, how can I show up for that person? And then when you raise your hand to high five yourself, a couple of things are going to happen.

• 43:18Speaker 06

  You need to do this five days in a row because first things first, it's going to feel weird. And you've had Charles Dweig on the show, so you know everything about habits and you know that your brain resists any habit loop that's new and you got to break a habit loop and replace it. It's going to feel weird because just like it feels weird to write with your left hand if you're a righty. It's new, your brain's just going to be like, oh, this is weird. I've never done this. Then one of two things are going to happen. And this is based on loads of research that we've done in the last year now that it's kind of going viral. And we've talked to the world's leading experts on behavior change and neuroscience about this. People either do it and immediately have a burst of laughter or tears

• 43:57Speaker 06

  because they can't believe how long it's been since they've actually seen and celebrated themselves. Or they feel tremendous resistance and you're more likely to feel resistance and the reason why is so sad. So the reason why most people feel a resistance to doing this, you're going to scoff, you're going to roll your eyes, you're going to think this is stupid. Is because every morning when you stand before yourself, you drag your entire past with you. Every regret, everything that you've done that you forgive me or Joe for, but you can't forgive yourself. You stand in judgment and say, this is evidence that I don't deserve a high five.

• 44:36Speaker 06

  My husband, when the restaurant business failed, it literally took almost six years for him to look in the mirror, Joe.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  I was just saying.

• 44:45Speaker 06

  And see somebody worth celebrating.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not saying I'm a failure every morning, I think would be very difficult after that.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  Yes. And he did for a long time. And by the way, if it's something that you didn't screw up, but you've experienced trauma or abuse or heartbreak or whatever. A lot of people drag that in and see somebody that's damaged or that's, that's abused or that's unlovable or that's unworthy because of what's been done to you. And I'm sitting here telling you that if you can drag yourself out of bed, despite everything that's happened in your life that's been done to you, that you've done, that you can't forgive yourself for, and you can stand in front of that mirror and you're still breathing and you're still trying hard to show up a little bit better. You deserve a high five and you need it. And here's the cool part.

• 45:33Speaker 06

  The coolest part is that your mind, body and nervous system are actually wired to have this work for you. And I want to explain this because this is the coolest part. You can stand in front of the mirror and see a failure. But when you go to raise your hand and high five yourself and you feel that resistance, all of a sudden the resistance will go quiet. Because your brain will not allow you to think anything but positive thoughts when you actually high five. See, when you have either received a high five, Joe, or you've given one, what does it communicate?

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Happiness, success, achievement.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  I'm good. I'm good with you.

• 46:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. And it also, like, if you think about spectators in a marathon. They don't stand with their arms crossed at mile eight and go, yeah, you're not at the finish line. Screw you. Your last mile was really low. I'm not high fiving you.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  I love, by the way, Mel, this story that you told about the New York marathon, about how it's the fans and everybody I know, I'm getting ready to run a half marathon this weekend. Everybody I know that's done these long runs, it's those high fives and those fans all the way through that propel you to actually finish.

• 46:44Speaker 06

  You know what? You talk about how to live a rich life. You talk about earn, save, invest. You have to invest in yourself every morning. You don't have to earn encouragement and support. You just have to show up and give it to yourself because your life is long. It's a marathon and it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to run it if step by step, every single day. You show up in the mirror and you high five the person that you see. And what happens if you show up like my husband would for years and say, that restaurant business failed, so I'm a failure. When you start to high five yourself, a couple of things happen. The high five recognizes it's been hard. I see you. You're struggling at this mile of the race. I get it.

• 47:29Speaker 06

  But it also says, keep going. You deserve the support. You're trying to do harder. And it's a way for you to start to rebuild a sense of self, a sense of worth. And you know, for folks that listen to you, this is really important because another reason why people resist it is because we believe that our worth is anchored in the amount of money we have in the bank or the car that we drive or the number on the scale or the neighborhood we live in or our skin color or the texture of our hair or whatever, something outside of us. If somebody else likes us, then I can like myself. If this person loves me, then I can love myself. It's the reverse.

• 48:10Speaker 06

  Your relationship with yourself is everything. You need to learn how to stand in this moment, even though the number on the scale isn't what you want it to be. Even though you're not quite where you want to be yet when it comes to financial freedom. Even though you're still screwing up, you need to stand there despite all that because this mile is really hard and you need to raise your hand. And you need to celebrate yourself so that you can continue moving forward.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  It's interesting as you're talking, Mel, I've followed you for quite a while and I know that.

• 48:44Speaker 06

  And you still invited me on the show.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  Despite all that, you're still here. You're not, you're not like Miss Positive Self Talk, right? This isn't a mantra. This is science. And I know that the same science, you wrote about how the same science really helped your son with his learning.

• 49:05Speaker 06

  Oh yeah. So our son, Oak, I write a bunch of stories about what a lousy parent I was and how I plummeted their, their self-esteem in most, in many ways. And the therapy bills that that's going to cause, hopefully so you don't do that to your kids. No, but one of the interesting things is we figured out in the fourth grade that Oakley had a pretty severe dyslexia. And he happened to hide it from everybody because he was super verbal. A lot of dyslexic kids.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  I wonder where the verbal comes from. I'm sorry.

• 49:34Speaker 06

  I don't know. Well, it turns out I'm dyslexic too.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Oh, are you really?

• 49:38Speaker 06

  Oh yeah. As we were going through the testing, I turned to his pediatrician who I've known for 16 years and I'm like, you know, do you think I'm dyslexic and ADHD? And the doc looked at me and he's like, Mel, are you out of your, you are the most ADHD dyslexic person I've ever met. And I'm like, why didn't you tell me? He's like, I'm not your doctor. So anyway, we get him into this incredible school here in the Boston area that specializes in language-based learning styles and disabilities. And so they have a partnership with MIT. And one day I got to see them do this neurobic. It's called neurobic interventions. And that's not a word I made up. It's, it's, neurobics is a whole field of study about accelerating learning.

• 50:19Speaker 06

  And the fastest way to get your brain to form a new neural pathway is to marry aerobic or physical activity with a new thought that creates a new connection and builds a new neural pathway. And so the high five is the same thing. What they were doing with my son is they had a big board on the wall and lights would light up. And then there was a line down the middle and whenever the board lit up on the left-hand side, he had to touch it with his right hand. And same thing, touch the right side with his left hand.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  So I had to go across his, across his body unnaturally every time?

• 50:56Speaker 06

  Correct. Because with dyslexia, it's the neural pathways connecting across the brain that need to be stimulated to grow. And so that neurobic activity of the raised hand gesture, combined with a thought, okay, over there was what was forging it. You're doing the same thing. When you raise your hand to yourself, your brain recognizes the gesture from a lifetime of doing it. And it applies the positive programming that's already in your brain to the gesture itself. Like it's absolutely bananas. I want to read you something because as I was writing this book, I got a text from one of our daughters who's a 21-year-old college student. She's at the Music Conservatory at University of Southern California.

• 51:39Speaker 06

  And I think that this really encapsulates the profound power of what we're talking about. So she writes to me, Mom, are you getting excited about your book? By the way, I've been high fiving myself in the mirror. And I said, oh my gosh, how's it working? And she said, well, I don't know what to say when I do it. Because sometimes I still look in the mirror and I think you're not as pretty as the rest of the girls. And then I say, well, you don't have to say anything. You just have to high five yourself because the high five communicates it for you. And then she said this, but what if I didn't accomplish anything today? Like I didn't work out or I didn't write a new song like I said I would. Do I still high five myself after my shower?

• 52:23Speaker 06

  I said, yes, you have to keep showing up every day, trying to do a little better because that alone will make you worthy of feeling supported and celebrated. You see, we have the secret to life and happiness and motivation backwards. You think you need to accomplish something to be worthy of a high five. And then she writes, wait a minute, are you saying the fact that I exist deserves a high five? And I said, yes. And when you high five yourself for just standing there in front of the mirror, you are demonstrating that you see yourself and all of your potential. You support yourself and you believe in you and that no matter what happens today or didn't happen today, you still have your own back. And I asked her, I said, so what do you think about what I just wrote?

• 53:06Speaker 06

  And she said, well, I love it because it makes me feel great. And then I asked her this, I said, could you explain why it makes you feel great? Because maybe it'll help me explain it to everybody else. And she wrote this, Joe. Well, what the high five shows you is that you don't actually know how much you're always doing. And I think that once you start high fiving yourself every single morning, it almost allows you to be more present to everything you are doing. And it helps you recognize all those small victories. And when you can compile all those small victories, you can recognize all of your accomplishments, both big and small. And eventually you'll come to believe that you not only are worth it, but you can do anything.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  The book is The High Five Habit. I wish it were inspirational, Mel. I wish it was.

• 53:54Speaker 06

  You're awesome.

• 53:55Speaker 00

  I've got goosebumps. I'm sitting here. Holy cow. Hey, next time you're on, you were nice enough to give us some other questions and I'm out of time, but I really want to ask you, I so want to ask you about your dead father-in-law convincing you to move. I got, at some point, Mel, we got to hear that story.

• 54:12Speaker 06

  Oh, it's incredible. It's in the last chapter of the book. It's incredible. Basically, do you want me to give you the short version?

• 54:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, give us, give us the, I kind of don't, I kind of want the full thing, but yes, short version for today.

• 54:28Speaker 06

  So our dyslexic son, I made the mistake of saying, because school has been such a chafe, you can choose to go to high school anywhere. I never expected him to say, I want to go to Southern Vermont where my grandparents live. And I'm like, okay, anywhere but there. You realize we live in Boston and I have a talk show in New York and this was before the pandemic, of course, Joe. And we fought and we fought and we fought and we fought. And finally, Chris and our son were like, okay, fine, I won't do it. And so about a month goes by, he starts looking at schools in Boston and we're still filming the talk show. It was in January of 2020. And they book a psychic medium on the show. And the long and the short of it is, her readings were

• 55:09Speaker 06

  jaw dropping. And at the end of the show, she looks at me, and by the way, I had not told a soul about the fact that he wanted to go to high school at this public school in Vermont. I had not told a soul that we were fighting about it. She looks at me and says, you know, are you open to being read? And I said, yes, I am. And she said, well, there's somebody behind you in a military uniform. And I said, it must be my grandfather, Frank Schneberger. He was in the Navy. And she said, no, no, no, this is not a naval officer. This is a decorated Air Force pilot. And I'm like, I have no idea who that is. And she said, well, I think he's related to he's, he's insistent on talking to you. I'm like, I'm telling you, I have no idea. I'm not related to a naval pilot, pilot, or I mean, an Air Force pilot. And she said, does the letter

• 55:50Speaker 06

  K mean anything to you? And I'm like, nope. And she goes, uh, I think he's saying Ken? And I said, well, Ken is what we call my daughter. Her name is Kendall. She was named after my husband's dad who died. His name is Kenneth. And she said, could it be Kenneth? And I said, no, he was not in the Air Force. And she said, he's getting agitated. Can you verify that? And I said, I don't need to. He was an advertising executive in New York City. I knew the man for decades. Like, he's not an Air Force pilot. Meanwhile, they're getting my husband on the phone in the control room. And inside that little microphone they stick in the ear, I

• 56:32Speaker 06

  hear the control room say, Mel, we have Chris on the phone. Turns out, your father-in-law was in the Air Force reserves in college. It had always been his dream to be an Air Force pilot. And during the exam for the pilot's test, they found out he was colorblind and he couldn't be one. This is a fact you cannot Google, and it is something I never knew. So now my arms are like my hairs on, like my dead father-in-law is in the studio. I believe in this stuff.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Mine are listening to it, by the way.

• 57:06Speaker 06

  I'm sure. And so he then says, she says, I don't know what this means, but he's come here because, you know, he's got a lot of grandkids, I guess. I'm like, yep. And he's like, and I guess your son is the youngest? And I'm like, yeah. And then she goes, and he's been watching him. He's really special kid. And I'm like, he is. And he said, he's come here. And she goes, I don't know what this means, but there's something about a school. I don't know if there's like a nickname, or something about his friends at a school that you don't, whatever it is about the school, you don't like it.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  This is so creepy.

• 57:38Speaker 06

  He has come here to tell you that you have to trust your son on this one. And I walked off that set and I called my husband and I said, okay, we'll move to Vermont.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  Wow. By the way, I spent less-

• 57:52Speaker 06

  I'm not arguing with the dad, Joe.

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's beyond our pay grade. You're like, yeah, okay, cool. I'll tell you what, we, we lived last summer in Stowe, Vermont for a month and it was amazing. I could, Vermont's so beautiful. Mel, thanks so much for spending time with us in your busy, busy day.

• 58:10Speaker 06

  I loved this. I really loved this. I think you're great. You, this was so much fun. It was so cool. I also really got a lot out of it because of what you brought to it. So thank you.

• 58:22Speaker 00

  Well, thanks. High five for you for being you.

• 58:24Speaker 06

  High five, babe.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Thanks a ton.

• 58:27Speaker 06

  You're welcome.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm David Stein. When I'm not talking to other people about money on Money for the Rest of Us, I'm stacking Benjamins.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  Absolutely love talking to Mel Robbins. Just so inspirational. How about that, OG? Change your state.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  Do it. Yep.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Change your state. Give yourself a high five.

• 58:46Speaker 04

  It's impossible to be angry when you're smiling at yourself in the mirror. I heard this quote the other day. Have you ever noticed how all the stupid people show up when you're tired?

• 58:58Speaker 00

  I heard this, I heard this presented a different way, but yes.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  It's exactly true, right?

• 59:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  And so like, if you picture what a tired and like exhausted and downtrodden person looks like, just those words, you can feel like the slumping, tired downtrodden, you know, like you just feel that crunching of your body versus like standing up straight and your shoulders back and marching, you know, to a tune like a college, you know, marching band or something, you know, like, how could you be angry and do that? How can you be in a different state of despair when, when you're running full sprint? Like you just, if you do something like that, it immediately puts you in a different position to be able to make that's, people talk about taking walks during the middle of the day. Go take a walk in the middle, just walk around the block. Totally change your demeanor.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Changes everything. Yeah. And I'm also with Mel that this, if you make this a habit, that one little high five, not going to change everything instantly, like maybe you run around the block will, but it's easy. You're in there brushing your teeth already. Just one little-

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  Good enough, I'm smart enough. Doggone it, people like it.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  They do. Hey, let's take out the magnifying glass enough somebody do better with their money. Today, we are going to help Roy. Say hi, Roy.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Hello again, Joe, OG and Doug. It is the one and only listener calling again from across the pond, Roy. I'm still not British, but I do fancy a cup of tea from time to time. A little birdie in the stacker said, you're running out of questions to answer. And I'm big into the whole, ask not what stacking Benjamins can do for you, but what can you do for stacking Benjamins philosophy? Which is why I'm calling again. I know you dislike target date funds as much as seeing people put ketchup on steak. Can you share how you personally allocate your investments percentage-wise and the funds you use? I know whatever you say is for entertainment purposes only, and I don't really plan to learn anything anyway, but figured it was a good question. Thanks for everything that you do and say hi to Doug and mom for me.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  I'm still a size medium and want the holes cut out in the abs to show off my upgraded four and a half pack abs. Cheers.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  Upgraded four and a half.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  Four and a half pack.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  This is pretty good. Thanks, Roy, for the question. And congratulations on the ab work. Nice, nice guys taking care of a core day. Making sure core day works.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  Every day's core day. I like arm day better, but yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Hey, let's talk about allocating your portfolio.

• 1:01:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't think there would be any value in like talking about specific funds. A lot of the stuff that we have for clients is institutional and not really available retail anyway. But from an allocation standpoint, I'm really kind of sharing it, so to speak. I don't think that any fixed income belongs in a portfolio that's a long-term investment portfolio. So you would be not surprised to find $0 allocated to any fixed income in my world, other than cash reserve. So I've got that.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  But then realize, if you follow that, your standard deviation is going to go up, right? You will have a bump in your ride. So you should expect that.

• 1:02:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's going to be a lot more ups and downs. There's going to be a lot more variability in the day to day and week to week. All of the money that's not in cash is invested pretty simply, you know, have roughly 70% in US, roughly 30% outside of the US, maybe 65, 35. And then within there, I'll also break it down between big companies and small companies. And also do that on the international side. And then in the international side, we'll also add emerging markets. That's kind of the equity portfolio. We have rental real estate. So that's kind of a component to the kind of net worth as well. And the biggest thing, the biggest part of my overall net worth, so to speak, is the value of my business.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  Crypto. Oh, no.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, crypto, crypto. Well, I mean, we have some of that, too. I bought $500 worth of Shaboo Boo or Shababow or whatever the latest one was.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  Shabow.

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  Chicka Chicka Bow Wow.

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  Chicka Bow.

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know. All I know is that I have 58 million of them.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:02:57Speaker 04

  And I just need those bastards to go up to a dollar a share. And then when you call my phone number, all you hear is, do, do, do, we're sorry, the number you've called is listed and there is no longer in service.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  He is gone.

• 1:03:13Speaker 04

  Please check the number. Try again later.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Some people like to play the ponies like, like mom. OG likes to play, play the cryptos. So there it is. What's the greater say in the cryptos, losing 500 bucks sometime over the next decade, or finding out that the one you could have bought for 500 worth 58 million?

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  I think there's some, I think there's some value, Roy, in talking about not our portfolio, but how you should think about your portfolio. An analogy that I like is like a ship. I think the hull of your portfolio to OG's point should be large company stocks, because large company stocks are going to go where the, the economy goes, right? Over long periods of time, if the economy is going to continue, large company stocks are going to be the basis of that. So your biggest allocation into large company stocks. Next biggest allocation for me then is international. Those will be also large company stocks. But now we're looking at, at companies around the world. I go a little smaller there because of the fact that normally, if you look at companies, a lot of US companies kind of lead

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  the way. However, if you look at from 2000 to 2010, the last decade, you needed that international or your portfolio is going nowhere. This last decade, it was exactly the opposite, right? International not going hardly anywhere and large companies doing better.

• 1:04:34Speaker 04

  I think that's the hardest part about investing is recognizing that what's happened over the last 10 years or 12 years is not likely to be what happens over the next 10 or 12, because we have that significant recency bias. And I'm seeing it quite a lot right now in the tech space and in basically NASDAQ funds, right? Like if I can dump money into NASDAQ and NASDAQ is basically all of your big tech companies in the United States and globally. And so I'm going to put a whole bunch of money in tech and it's also, by the way, gone up a bajillion percent in the last eight years. So why should I do anything different? And, and I, and I say, what happened from 1999 through 2015? Just look at the

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  chart. I remember in March of 2000, the NASDAQ hitting 5,000. And then it went down and didn't hit 5,000 again until this past decade. Like it was down for 15 years.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  And I saw this mistake recently with a really smart person online, not, not an investment pro, but somebody who does a lot of research. And they said, Hey, I'm looking at the S and P 500. You know how much of the S and P 500 right now is just Amazon and Apple?

• 1:05:46Speaker 04

  Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Facebook and Google.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  50%.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  But just take Amazon and Apple, those two, they're still the monster part of those companies. So he said, forget buying the S and P 500. Those two stocks, if you own them the last 10 years have just rocked your portfolio. I'm not buying.

• 1:06:01Speaker 04

  The other 490.

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  I'm not buying, I'm buying just Amazon and Apple. And I thought that's, that's your recency bias right there. What did well the last 10 years is not what's, what's going to do.

• 1:06:14Speaker 04

  And then look at, look at during COVID, last year, September through May, what did well from September through May, small company value stocks, large value stocks. In fact, the small value section of your portfolio did so much better from September to May that it erased the 10 year gain that tech had, had you had it for the whole 10 year period. And, and you think about, you had to hold small value for nine and a half years, getting your face kicked in. So I don't think that the right thing is to say, you know, here's how much money you should have in large cap, or here's how much money you should have in small companies or whatever. You have to do whatever you need to do to reach

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  your goal, but recognize that you have to do it forever this way. There is no changing. And the minute that you do is the time when all of a sudden, you know, life's going to happen or the, the market's going to go the other way on you or whatever. So it matters not what your allocation is. It matters whether or not you can actually keep the allocation.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 04

  TM.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  The third, the third, the third allocation, if you want another one is what I think of is the Spinnaker Sale, which is a sale that they put up when the wind's really blowing. And this will be your smaller allocations to things like inside of that international position, having a sliver be a Spinnaker, which will be the emerging markets that, that OG is talking about, or on the US side, or heck, anywhere, the, the small cap stuff that, that you're talking about.

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. You could add commodities in there as a great example. There's all sorts of different places you can put your money.

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  But realize what a Spinnaker Sale does if that wind's not blowing in that specific spot. It just, it's a dead weight in your portfolio. And, and those things are either going to be great, or they're going to be nothing, which is why I always go, that's my third biggest allocation. So I kind of think haul the ship, large companies, US based, that the sale is the large cap international, and then the Spinnaker is going to be your emerging market, small cap, et cetera.

• 1:08:24Speaker 04

  I didn't know that you were a sailor.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  There it is. I'm not just play one on the radio. There we go. No, that's a whole different thing. Thanks for that question, Roy. And you know what? While Roy is not completely right, we actually do have some questions. We have burned through a lot of them. And guess what? That means we have this rare opportunity for people like Roy and you to get your questions answered on the Magnify Money line. Head to stackingbenjamins.com forward slash voicemail and you could have your question answered fairly, fairly quickly now compared to most times. I thought that was a good one as well. So we're going to send Roy some, send Roy some swag. All right. That's going to do it for today. There's a lot of people to thank, but mostly big thanks to you for taking the time to hang

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  out with OG and I. We know your time is incredibly valuable and we love the fact that you decide to spend it with us. So thank you very much for that. If you know somebody who should be a stacker, should hear some of the messages from today, maybe somebody needs that high five right now, forward them this episode. Tell them that they should give it a listen and maybe you can help somebody else get better with their money. But if you need to be better with your money, OG and his team are taking clients. If you need to think bigger, head to stackingbenjamins.com forward slash OG, and that's the link to interface with his team to see how they can help you make better decisions the rest of this year and next year. All right. Think that's going to do it for today. Doug, you got it from here, man. What should we have learned today?

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  So what should we have learned today? First, take some advice from Mel Robbins. By reminding yourself that you can be successful and sticking to your game plan, you'll gain the confidence to conquer whatever mountain you're facing. Second, from our headlines, annuities? While the product type isn't bad, there are plenty of bad actors still out there hocking expensive products. Buyer beware. But we're excited about the future. Fingers crossed. But the big lesson? Ask Joe's mom financial terms at your own risk. Income statement? Oh, she said, yeah, I have income. That's my statement. EBITDA? No, thanks. I already ate. And the worst one, when I asked her about liabilities, let's just say she

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  wasn't very kind, old Doug. Time to wash more windows. Big thanks to Mel Robbins for joining us. You'll find Mel's book, The High Five Habit, wherever books are sold. This show is the property of SB Podcasts LLC, copyright 2021, and is created by Joe Saul Sehi. Our producer is Karen Repine. The show is written by Taylor Stephens with help from Joe and Doc G from the Earn and Invest Podcast. After you listen, check out our show notes page written by our website manager and blog editor, Brooke

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  Miller. Brooke and Joe also collaborate on a guide to the show and with lots of extras we couldn't include on today's podcast. Heck, they'll also throw in some life money lessons from Joe and it's all free. It's called The Stacker and you'll find it at stackingbenjamins.com forward slash stacker. Once we get all of this goodness bottled up, it goes over to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart, who helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now. Want to talk about the show later? Mom's friend Gertrude is the room mother in our Facebook group, The Basement. She also is our social media coordinator.

• 1:12:01Speaker 03

  So say hello when you see us posting online. Here's a weird fact. She and Tina Eichenberg are never in the same room at the same time. For a URL that'll take you right to our Facebook group, by the way, type stackingbenjamins.com forward slash basement. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And remember stackers, whatever you do, give 100% unless of course you're giving blood.

• 1:12:35Speaker 00

  It's incredible at a small company like stacking Benjamins, how one, one hire makes all the difference in the world. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on, you need the right hire. This is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. When workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Hiring indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen at other sites. Get matched with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Reach candidates

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  that meet your specific criteria like skills, certifications, or locations. Sponsored jobs boost your job post on search results. So you can reach the people that can help your business thrive. Plus with Indeed sponsored jobs, you only pay for results. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, listen to this. Companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. And sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, that's a job for Indeed sponsored

• 1:14:02Speaker 00

  jobs. And guess what? Our stackers are going to get a $75 sponsored job credit. That's you to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support stacking Benjamins by saying you heard about Indeed in mom's basement. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:15:18Speaker 00

  Think we've got to pull the cover back.

• 1:15:21Speaker 04

  Your hotel room sucks compared to mine.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  We are recording this in Austin because we're here for FinCon. We actually just recorded Wednesday's episode and then ran up here with a cold sandwich that OG was nice enough to get me.

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  Well, you paid for half.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Oh, good. Okay. But you got it. So thank you.

• 1:15:40Speaker 04

  Coming out of your profit.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  You still, you said profit. It's profit. You say that euphemistically.

• 1:15:45Speaker 04

  We're profitable.

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  Quote profit.

• 1:15:47Speaker 04

  I mean, one year and five.

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:50Speaker 04

  Maybe next year.

• 1:15:51Speaker 00

  Hopefully. But yes, OG got the upgrade and we were at your.

• 1:15:56Speaker 04

  OG's do.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  We were at your place yesterday. I walk into OG's hotel room. It has a foyer.

• 1:16:04Speaker 04

  You can't go right to the bedroom when you get into a hotel room. Where do you take your shoes off?

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  That's where, that's where you keep the, the, there's, there's coffee there.

• 1:16:14Speaker 04

  Every hotel room has coffee these days.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's right in that foyer. And then you step into this room that has these big windows, these way up high and has a nice sofa and a desk and a big, big screen TV. And that's not the bedroom. Then you go into the next room.

• 1:16:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Speaker 00

  And there's the bedroom.

• 1:16:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. And down the hall is the bathroom and.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  And my bathroom in a normal sized hotel bathroom has what you would expect. The toilet, a shower and a sink. OG has a bathtub. I think it's like a whirlpool bathtub too, isn't it? Does it have jets?

• 1:16:51Speaker 04

  I'll have to check.

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  And then you get to take like a rose petal bath.

• 1:16:56Speaker 04

  By myself. It'd be so awesome.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  And then, then you've, and you've got the, your bathroom, I think is the size of my hotel room.

• 1:17:04Speaker 04

  It's close. Yeah. I mean, you gotta have the double vanity, you know, just in case.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  Oh, you get double vanity. You have the double vanity.

• 1:17:10Speaker 04

  Duh. And two showers. Big, long hallway to the bathroom.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  What the hell's this? He's like, yeah, you want to go to the executive lounge for hors d'oeuvres?

• 1:17:21Speaker 04

  Come and eat, come and eat some mozzarella sticks courtesy of JW himself. He made them in the kitchen.

• 1:17:27Speaker 00

  Once we realized that JW Marriott was making mozzarella sticks, we knew that we could seriously make money on this arbitrage.

• 1:17:35Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  I can eat more mozzarella sticks than they can make.

• 1:17:38Speaker 04

  I don't know. It's like a sign of success though, or not. Like, look at me. I've got this big hotel room. I also stay 72 nights away from home.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  My family never sees me.

• 1:17:47Speaker 04

  One, one quarter of the year I spend in hotel rooms.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:17:51Speaker 04

  Look at how amazing my life is.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  I don't get all jealous about the business people that travel all the time with their upgrades anymore. Like I used to be, oh man, I wish I was that person.

• 1:17:59Speaker 04

  Well, to be honest, I haven't traveled much at all in the last year, but much like every airline company Marriott has done the same thing, which they've just like extended, you know, all of your credits and stuff. So I have all this pile, like, you know, the credit card free nights, the free upgrade, like all those things have just piled up over the last two and a half years of not very much travel. So, you know, might as well use them.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  Tonight I'm hosting the Plutus Awards.

• 1:18:28Speaker 04

  Do I have to come?

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  Thank God.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:18:31Speaker 04

  The. We might win something though.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  We are up for most entertaining podcast. It just most entertaining. They've changed the awards now so that it could be blog, social media, whatever, but we're up for most entertaining.

• 1:18:43Speaker 04

  Cause I thought we couldn't win anymore.

• 1:18:44Speaker 00

  We, we can't win best podcast. We are ineligible because we've won it.

• 1:18:48Speaker 04

  If we do win, can I have the trophy?

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  You're only supposed to win it once. We won it twice.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Obviously. Anyway, you didn't answer my question.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Can you have the trophy?

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 04

  You have the other ones.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, I owe you a trophy, by the way. I do have a trophy of yours at my house. It's been at my house for like four years. It was for best multi-host podcast. They had it for one year and we won it.

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  And did you get two trophies?

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  I did. I got two trophies.

• 1:19:15Speaker 04

  You're such a.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  It's been sitting in my house for like four years.

• 1:19:20Speaker 04

  This whole time I never have any recognition whatsoever. All I want is a, all I want is a participation trophy. And you've been holding it back for damn near half a decade.

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  It looks like a, you've seen them. They look like a participation trophy.

• 1:19:32Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, but I mostly want the money.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  It looks like the prize. It looks like we finished third place in U8 soccer.

• 1:19:40Speaker 04

  Totally out of three teams.

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  It totally does. And I love the Plutus Awards and I think it's fun and it is an honor, but the actual trophy is, is a little small.

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  Really about the, it's really about the money.

• 1:19:51Speaker 00

  Small. All the additional money. Yeah, it's good. So I've got a hazmat suit over there. I can talk about this freely here because they're over by the time people hear this. I've got, I'm coming out in a hazmat suit, asking if it's safe for us to come out. And then later on I have to change into this hundred dollar bill outfit. And I'm, the, the game is, is that I'm complaining with my co-host Natalie Torres Hadad about having to wear all these costumes. So what I'm doing is I'm channeling my inner OG and I'm just going to bitch about everything the entire.

• 1:20:26Speaker 04

  I don't complain about anything ever.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  You're complaining about me complaining.

• 1:20:31Speaker 04

  Well, true. I'm ready to go home now.

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  Let's do it.