A Former OpenAI Researcher Says 70% Chance of Human Extinction -- Here's What to Do With That SB1872

A former OpenAI researcher went on Diary of a CEO and said there's a 70% chance AI ends badly for humanity, told his wife they shouldn't have more children because they'd never enter the workforce, and gave up $2 million by refusing to sign a non-disparagement clause to say it publicly. Joe asks Paula Pant, OG, and Jesse Cramer to react -- not as AI experts, but as people who've watched the internet, robots, computers, and cars all supposedly end the economy, and as people who actually know what to do with your money when the world feels uncertain. What You'll Walk Away With Paula's case for being a negative 10 on the worry scale: why 60% of jobs that exist today didn't exist in 1940, and why AI is more likely to create new categories of work than eliminate work entirelyJesse's case for a four: why knowledge is being commoditized the same way gasoline was -- and what that means if your competitive advantage has always been what you knowOG's framework for separating the parts of your job AI will gladly take from the parts it never will -- and why that distinction is more useful than panicking about either halfThe Jevons Paradox: why making something cheaper almost always creates more demand for it, not less -- and why that applies to patents, legal filings, and every other knowledge-work category people think AI will eliminateSafe, evolving, or replaced: the roundtable verdict on CPAs, software engineers, and customer service reps -- and the Capital One research that reveals why some people actually prefer talking to a machineWhy learning the AI tools right now -- even if you're 58 and four years from retirement -- is the modern equivalent of learning email in 1993JL Collins' line that applies to careers just as much as portfolios: flexibility is the only true securityShould you buy an AI sector fund? OG, Paula, and Jesse each answer -- and the answer that surprised everyone is probably not the one you'd expectWhy OG's Triple Bypass bike race analogy is the best career advice in the episode: if you're always ready, you never have to get readyThe window tax trivia that AI got spectacularly wrong -- proving, on an episode about AI taking all our jobs, that it can't even count windows yet Why This Matters Now The fear is real. The timeline is uncertain. And the people most likely to be okay are the ones who are building flexibility into their finances and their careers right now -- not because AI is definitely coming, but because it's always smart to be ready for the thing that might come. From the Basement Paula Pant, OG, and Jesse Cramer react to a former OpenAI researcher's apocalyptic Diary of a CEO interview -- and spend most of the episode arguing about whether to panic, which jobs survive, whether to buy the AI sector fund, and what OG's fighting robot would do to Jesse's house. Doug arrives with window tax trivia that AI generated incorrectly -- which Joe caught just before air -- and handing one of our contributors a huge win. Financial Action Month is coming next week: five episodes, a bingo sheet, and more to come. Resources Mentioned Diary of a CEO -- Steven Bartlett interview with Daniel Kokotajlo, former OpenAI researcherTony Robbins interview with Ray Kurzweil -- referenced for additional AI perspective; linked at stackingbenjamins.comAfford Anything episode 693 -- Paula Pant interview with Dr. Ben Zweig on AI and the workforce; affordanything.com/episode693Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors (PFLTI) -- Jesse Cramer; upcoming AMA episode 19 and episode 150 personal AMAAnthropic Skill Jar -- free AI training; referenced by Paula for learning Claude featuresDelivering Happiness by Tony Hsieh -- referenced for the Zappos customer service modelOG financial planning calendar -- stackingbenjamins.com/og https://stackingbenjamins.com/ogStacking Benjamins Newsletter (The 201) -- stackingbenjamins.com/201 https://stackingbenjamins.com/201Stacking Benjamins Community -- stackingbenjamins.com/basement https://stackingbenjamins.com/basement See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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  Stay stacking, my friends.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and recently, the popular podcast Diary of a CEO featured a former employee of ChatGPT creator OpenAI, and the guest implied we'd all be out of the job very, very soon. Today, we're doing something new, our reaction.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Actions to another podcast discussion. Do we think AI is coming for our jobs? Now that an expert in the field says it's inevitable, what should you do to prepare? How can you structure your investments to minimize any damage? We'll cover all of that on today's show. And if the thought of your income going away wasn't heavy enough, of course, we'll also feature something far more serious, our year-long trivia challenge. Jesse crept up on OG last week and Paula's been on a tear lately. Will the race keep tightening or will OG continue his quest to break the record? And now a guy who must be nearing the record for hosting the most roundtable

• 2:53Speaker 03

  episodes of a money podcast, it's Joe Saul Sehi.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Hey there, stackers and happy Friday to you. Welcome back to the Stack Your Management Show. I am Joe Saul Sehi. And we, we have done a lot of these roundtable episodes, but today I think is the best one because, well, let's get Doug back on screen here. Doug, how are you, man?

• 3:16Speaker 03

  I'm great, Joe. You know, I've recently lowered my expectations for myself, so now I'm thriving.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  You might have to lower the more because you remember when the internet was going to eliminate our jobs.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  I remember that very clearly.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  Because of the internet or would robots, we're going to get rid of manufacturing. Remember that?

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  It's all gone.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Well, all those standards were lowered for all those people and yet they kept their job.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Here we are.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Computers were going to eliminate offices. Remember that one?

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Remember when cars were going to eliminate the horse and buggy? Oh, wait.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Oops.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  AI, AI might be different, might be different. Is it different? We don't know, but somebody, luckily we got a team of roundtable participants who are not AI, at least as far as you know, they're not AI. First one, clearly not AI, sitting across the card table from me, Mr. OG's here. How are you, man?

• 4:14Speaker 04

  Excited to be here. Thanks for having me. First time caller, long time listener.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Definitely not AI. Definitely not AI.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  If there's a way to do it, though, I'm game.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  He's like, I'll be the, I'll be the test rabbit. And high over Manhattan, she's not AI from a Ford Anything. Paula Pant is here. You're not AI, are you?

• 4:33Speaker 05

  Unless I'm extremely advanced AI. I mean, I'm, I'm just coming in through a screen. You don't know, maybe someone like really vibe coded the heck out of me.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  Paula does look like one of the characters out of Ex Machina, that movie.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Oh, she, that was some real AI. Paula has no idea what you're talking about, Doug.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  When you said, you know, that one movie Paula could have shook her head, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that movie. Yes.

• 4:59Speaker 05

  Wasn't there some movie with Scarlett Johansson? I heard about it only because, ah, yes, yes. I haven't watched that one either.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  That's the, that's the one I have heard of.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  You could say that about everything. I haven't watched that one either. I haven't watched that one. Well, luckily you're here on this podcast, so we got you on this one. And from the wilds of upstate New York, where AI makes beautiful trees, beautiful lakes, Jesse Cramer's here. How are you, man?

• 5:25Speaker 06

  Beautiful drop ceilings as well.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:27Speaker 06

  This isn't a real, this is not a real drop ceiling. This is a AI manufactured background.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. All the Zoom chats, the one that wants you to be really professional. They're like, you gotta get the one where it looks like a drop ceiling with a door in the background. Like, that's, that's what everybody goes for.

• 5:42Speaker 06

  You know, they all have cool titles to all the backgrounds have these intricate titles. And this one is just called corporate B level hellscape. And so that's what, that's where I am right now.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  It's your toggling through all of your different, different backgrounds. Oh, hellscape? I'm going with that one.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  Oh, sign me up.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Well, man, speaking of hellscape, Stephen Bartlett on the popular show Diary of a CEO, recently interviewed a gentleman who is a former OpenAI researcher, Daniel Kokateo.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Let's say doom and gloom gets a new definition, guys. It's a brand new, you thought the bar was low for doom and gloom. It is now lower, like it is scary. I'm going to play you a clip. It's going to be a couple of minutes long clip. So we can kind of get the gist of what they talked about. It's the intro to this particular episode. I'm going to play that right after we have our beginning break so that everybody can hear what the stakes are. According to Daniel, Daniel Cattio, easy for me to say, Co-Catio. And then I want to dive into this. Is AI coming for your job? But first, we have a couple of sponsors who help us keep on keeping on.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  We're going to hear from them and we will be right back with our reactions to this latest Diary of a CEO kind of episode that everybody's talking about. Because if you weren't afraid before the break, you're going to be afraid about three minutes after we take this break. If you haven't heard it, we'll be right back. When my dad died, my mom had money available right away, even though many of her assets were tied up in things like my dad's 401k. But that was because of life insurance. And Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy. It's 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes and get same day coverage. There's no medical exam, just answer a few simple health questions. You get up to $3 million in coverage.

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• 10:13Speaker 00

  Okay, let's begin with a clip. This is the beginning of an episode of Diary of a CEO that says, he risked everything to warn you. No one is ready for what's coming and the AI companies already know it. Let's hear the intro to this episode.

• 10:29Speaker 07

  The scary open secret in the AI industry right now is that it's possible that we'll end up essentially creating a new species that ends up ruling the world with a 70% chance that this goes horribly wrong like human action. That's one possibility. There's many more. It's quite chilling what you're saying. Yeah, it's, uh, it gets me down sometimes.

• 10:47Speaker 07

  I basically told my wife, like, let's not have any more kids. It's too uncertain. I don't think they'll ever join the workforce.

• 10:53Speaker 07

  Everybody should be afraid that their jobs are going to be lost. And I know this because I went to OpenAI in 2022. What I did there was forecasting as to what the next couple of years might look like. And unfortunately, most of the world is kind of asleep at the wheel and doesn't really realize what's going on with AI. So I resigned. I read it somewhere that you lost $2 million for not signing an anti-disparagement clause, meaning you couldn't criticize the company. Yes, for reasons I'm happy to get into. But the main thing I've learned is don't want to go talk to people at Anthropic and OpenAI about forecasting. They're like, it's not going to take that long. You need to shorten them again. Get them back to 2027 or 2028. Because these powerful CEOs, Dario or Sam or Elon are racing each other to be in control of the most powerful AIs and are literally afraid that if the other guy gets there first, he might become dictator. I mean, Anthropic is on track to be the entire economy by 2030. But none of these people should be trusted with that much power.

• 11:38Speaker 07

  So this is the most important thing happening in our lifetimes, probably in all of history, in fact. And it's very important that it go well. So I think that there's a lot we can do to like steer things in a better direction. There's loads of benefits that we could get from AI if we do it right. And if we do solve the problems, then things could be absolutely amazing for everyone.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  He then during this episode goes into exactly how he thinks things could be amazing. But he also puts the chances that we are going to be amazing is very, very low because he thinks that we're all going to continue to fight with each other and then the robots ultimately win. So how's that for doom and gloom, Paula Pant?

• 12:08Speaker 05

  I mean, it is doomy and gloomy.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Pretty. The forecast for the next 30 years is slightly overcast with chances of storms. I want to start off this way. First of all, in terms of the three of you now, obviously, just to set the stage here, if you're new to stacking Benjamins, none of us are AI experts, but we are money experts and we are people who have seen industries come and go. We all have lots of, we've seen lots of changes in the workforce. We've seen lots of changes with different innovations that were going to wipe everything out. But this guy, Daniel, he wrote a piece in 2021 that is scarily correct in 2025. I won't go into it too much because you can find it elsewhere.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  But in 2021, he predicted where we're going to be today. And now everyone's telling him, we need to speed up the pace because his predictions are way too slow that we're going to get to the fact that none of us have a job way, way earlier than was already predicted. But let's put it this way, on a scale of one to 10, 10 is that you're packing your bags right now and you're just going to go off and move into the woods because you're not going to need a job in the next however so long, your jobs, it's coming for you. One, you're not worried at all. Where would you put yourself? Paula, let's start with you, since I called on you earlier. 10, super worried, one, not worried at all?

• 13:27Speaker 05

  I would be negative 10.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Negative 10.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  Meaning.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Don't give me meaning yet. Don't give me meaning. I get it. But past one.

• 13:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm below one.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh gee, how about you?

• 13:41Speaker 04

  I didn't know that we could create our own scales.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  I have to give some context. I think there's parts of my jobs because I have multiple jobs. I think there's parts of parts of my jobs that will be gladly replaced by AI. And there's other parts that will never. So I'll give myself, based on the weighting of all that, a two. How's that?

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Okay, that was more than I wanted because I was going to get context later. But Jesse, one to 10?

• 14:11Speaker 06

  Four or five.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Okay, let me start with Paula. Paula, why aren't you buying the hype?

• 14:18Speaker 05

  I am a believer that AI is going to create new categories of work that do not exist today. And if you look at the data, if you look at the number of jobs, I actually just pulled this up right before we started recording, an MIT economist named David Autor found that 60% of the jobs that people do today did not exist in 1940. So if you think about that technological acceleration between 1940 and now, if you go even back further and like, imagine you were talking to somebody from the 1900s and you say, hey, in 2026, 2% of people are going to work on farms. You know, they'd be like, oh, does that mean you're all starving? Like, no, we actually have too much to eat in most parts of the world.

• 15:02Speaker 05

  We have all of these new categories of work that like, didn't exist then, and this is only going to accelerate that.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Jesse, you're on the other end of the scale. We got to call you the worrier, even though you're only a four. What are you seeing that these two aren't seeing? Paula's negative 10 and you're plus four, 14, delta between the two of you. What are you seeing that Paula's not seeing?

• 15:23Speaker 06

  Our delta is bigger than the scale itself. I don't, what I'm seeing, it's not maybe that I'm seeing something that the others aren't seeing. It's just that I recognize, you know, as a worker in this economy, I think I know what some of my strengths are, and I try to play to my strengths. And at least I'm in a position where I look at some of my strengths, I compare those strengths to AI itself. And I come to the conclusion that I have competition and that I feel replaceable in a way that I didn't necessarily feel replaceable five years ago. Knowledge is being commoditized, much in the same way that gasoline is commoditized. I mean, there was a time where Each of us had had knowledge in our own arenas and our own specialties that you could

• 16:08Speaker 06

  say that the average person simply did not have access to. Like Paula, you have knowledge about real estate market and what it means to run a rental real estate business that 99.9% of the population simply does not know. They could know it, but they would have to work really, really hard for it. And, and you can make the argument now that the average person with an internet connection can spend a couple of days on Claude. And it's not that the person themselves are going to know more than you would, Paula. Like, that's not true. But you could make the argument that the AI model itself knows as much about real estate, if not more than you. The AI model knows as much, if not more about financial planning than, than OG or I. And I still think there's a human element that's going to be really, really hard to

• 16:52Speaker 06

  replace, but the, the knowledge itself has become commoditized in a way that I don't feel like it was just a few years ago.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Oh gee, I remember 10 years ago, the game was at some point in the near future, truck drivers are going to be replaced, right? Cause we're going to have these trucks that drive themselves. In this latest Diary of a CEO piece, he's talking about knowledge work is completely going to be under fire, like knowledge workers. So the game is kind of flipped. We're not worried about the truck driver, worried about the lawyer being replaced, or worried about the person who's coding, or we're worried about maybe the financial planner. We'll talk about that or the CPA. Tell me more about your context, because you said in some areas it'll be great and other areas it won't. But what if the knowledge part is taken off the table for you? What does that mean for your career?

• 17:40Speaker 04

  Well, I think what, what Jesse is talking about, I would use different words. I would say that it's not the knowledge that is going to be commoditized, it's information that's commoditized. Anybody can look up the tax bracket or a Roth conversion idea, or how much to earn before you have Medicare surcharges. The difference is then how to apply that. At least where we are right now, and I suspect in the future it'll change, but at least where we are right now, there is still a very real sense of, you know, the AI tools like being supportive, you know, in terms of whatever you feel like you want to do.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  That doesn't mean they're not going to change. In fact, they probably will. But I'm not concerned about it because I think in every time throughout all of history, anytime that there's a new technology, it's, and I think this is maybe what Paul was getting at. It's like it just raised everybody's standards, you know? It made us work on the next higher best thing. And so, yeah, I, I, I do think that there's not going to be a lot of people who come out of college, just taking financial planning as an example, and do the traditional, and I say air quotes, traditional, because it's maybe Joe, how you got started, how I got started. But I don't think that's how it's going to happen in the future, where you start by doing grunt work, you know?

• 19:04Speaker 04

  You start by data entry, and that's how you learn how to do planning. Because why would you do that? In fact, as a business owner, why would I pay anybody to do data entry? When I can have the same efficacy in terms of, you know, how good the data entry is going to be and take one one hundredth of the time to do it. Like literally, it's upload a document, it's done. That doesn't mean there's not going to be financial planners. It just means that they do the next higher thinking along the way. So I'm not concerned about it in the sense of like replacing jobs. I think it's going to replace data entry and that sort of thing. And it's just going to force people to move, you know? Maybe this is what Paul was talking about.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  You're just going to move to the next higher, better use of your time.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  But that's not the part that scares me. The part that scares me is that, you know, because OG is talking about it as, as doing some of the data work, but that there's a difference between wisdom and data, and the human brings the wisdom. But increasingly, people are talking about how they use AI as a sparring partner, because it's so wise, because it's giving me the best course of action to take. So if AI gets to the point that it's picking out the best option for all of us anyway, it's no longer best use it data entry. Somebody's like, why wouldn't I have that be the lawyer? Because the chance of me winning versus the chance of a human winning, and a robot, AI is probably going to do the job more efficiently, come up with the right strategy to win the case,

• 20:34Speaker 00

  find the loophole that the human won't find as quickly, and can present it to the judge more eloquently than a person can without ever messing it up.

• 20:43Speaker 05

  Well, in the case of a lawyer, for example, number one, in that example, the AI is an augmenter. So you can use an AI to augment that research, to look for your blind spots, spot the unknown unknowns, use it as a sparring partner, go through iterations of what you think the opposing counsel might say. In a courtroom specifically, number one, I imagine that most judges, at least in our lifetime, are going to require that a human lawyer actually represent their clients. They are probably not going to accept, or that a client represents themselves, I guess, but they are not going to accept like a submission from AI. So there will have to be an individual there. But number two, there's also, let's

• 21:24Speaker 05

  get out of the courtroom and go to more broad uses of the legal system, Jevon's Paradox, which states that the cheaper something gets, the more we use it. So as the cost of filing patents, filing trademarks, as the cost of that goes down, more patents filed, more trademarks filed, more, like just more and more and more innovation takes place. Now the barriers to entry are a lot lower than they were. The internet was the first great barrier to entry lowerer, because you no longer had to have a brick and mortar business. And AI is now like amplifying that to the next level, where it's making the barriers to entry so low that a person with an internet connection can file a patent, even if they

• 22:08Speaker 05

  have no money and no connections, and they can be super scrappy at the age of 17.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  What about the people, though, in the middle, then? If you've got the person who files the patent, and you don't have so many people in that patent industry anymore, those people will lose their jobs?

• 22:23Speaker 05

  No, no, they don't lose their jobs, but they, their jobs might look different than, you know, maybe they're working on challenges, like, you know, maybe rather than like the rote patent filing, they're working on challenges to a patent, they're working on more, like representing more complex disputes around that.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  But isn't that, but isn't that like saying that when electricity came, that the people who were doing gas lamps, that those people weren't going to lose their jobs, they were just going to then work on gas for other causes, gas for other things versus the gas lamp? I mean, there were plenty of people who got displaced.

• 23:00Speaker 05

  Sure, but in aggregate, the invention of electricity has grown more jobs than it has cut.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  I agree with that, but I think there still is job displacement.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Where somebody has to take on a new, a new, completely new field possibly because your field now is no longer doing what it used to do.

• 23:18Speaker 05

  Yes, but you can always go into a field that's adjacent. So journalism is a great example. As legacy media, jobs in legacy media have shrunk, more journalists, trained journalists can go into journalism adjacent fields like podcasting, or like being a Substack newsletter writer, all of the content creation opportunities. Is it legacy journalism in the way that it used to look? Newspaper journalism? No, but is it journalism adjacent? Yes. And the same thing can happen in every industry. There are going to be adjacent verticals that you can pivot into. And the people who will succeed the most are the ones who are most eager to pivot, the ones who are most adaptable.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  I want to get into that in a minute. What I'd like to talk about is just a few different roles. And you guys give me whether you think this is over the next five years, safe evolving, or by five years from now, if we're replaced. You ready, Jesse? CPA, CPA safe? You think it's going to evolve? You think they're going to be replaced by AI?

• 24:15Speaker 06

  Evolve. Yeah, evolve. I do think about all the human relationships in place and all the trust that's in place. And I think about the ways, I mean, CPAs in particular, how ingrained they are in terms of like, it's not just mine, your tax return, it's business returns, and it's, it's nonprofit returns, and it's all the planning work and consulting work that CPAs do. I mean, they're still going to exist. But is that, I think, I think, was it you, Paulo, who used the word augment? Like, is their role going to be augmented by AI and data processing and data entry? And just think of like, think of all the spreadsheet work that a CPA does, and think about how good these AI models are at spreadsheet manipulation and doing all that stuff. Like, it's definitely going to evolve. That's my thought.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Oh geez, let's go to one we've seen a little bit already, software engineers.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know anything about software engineering, let alone like the broad title of that. I would say that I do know there are some like coding people that are having some issues presently, you know, in terms of having Claude do it for you. The thing that we have yet to see, and maybe this is just kind of the hype, and then we come back down to a reality, there's really not been any sort of evidence of productivity increase yet. There's a lot of money being spent. There's a lot of stuff being built. There's a lot of uproar over, you know, which small town's going to have the data center and which big town got to

• 25:39Speaker 04

  avoid it and all the issues with powering all that stuff and cooling it. But then I think about some of the ancillary benefits of that. And we've been trying to get more power on the grid, so to speak, in Texas for a generation because nobody wants to use anything other than

• 25:59Speaker 04

  gas and coal and oil. And it's like, well, maybe this is the impetus for other sources of energy, whether it's nuclear or solar, better efficiency there, or whatever it is, because it's like, the companies who want it are going to create the exponential demand that will then power, pardon the expression, the innovation and, you know, and maybe get that across the board and that benefits her across the, across the finish line. And then that benefits everybody because all of a sudden now there's robust power and it's cheap because the data centers use so much of it that they had to build so much of it that, you know, whatever. So I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that all this spending

• 26:42Speaker 04

  on AI tokens and all this sort of stuff is actually translated into increased productivity yet. I suppose eventually it will, but.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  Well, and what I think is fascinating about what you're talking about, I read a piece last week, OG, about how Silicon Valley, the hot thing right now, is solving all these problems around data centers, around, let's try to not use so much water. Let's try to have a self-contained area. Let's try to make them quieter. Let's do all these, all these things. So when there's a profit motive attached, all of a sudden the engineers go, oh, yeah, we can solve this problem.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  I mean, you know, not to dive too deep into it, but yeah, anytime that there's, anytime there's an opportunity to make money, people are going to try to be capitalistic in that regard. And the subset of this conversation, I suppose, is how does this affect your investing? You don't have to go after trying to buy the latest and greatest AI tool because every company is focused on the singular motive of profitability in whatever form and fashion that takes, in whatever business they happen to be in. So you don't actually have to like, try to figure out, well, which company's going to profit from this? Well, every company is trying to profit from everything all of the time. So it's just, it's a super easy way to invest because.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  If Coke can figure out how to make faster Coca Colas with less energy usage and make more money to share for shareholders because they just got rid of a floor of engineers because they can frigging AI the crap out of it. That's good for you because you own Coke stock and they're trying to make money. I think there's a lot of evolution coming. You know, Paula talked about farmers and internet was supposed to take away all of our jobs. It just created all new jobs. I don't think that the jobs that are here today are the ones that are around in 30 years from now. I think it's a different thing. We still need people to fix my AC unit when it takes a crap in the hot summer. Someday, maybe there's robots that can climb on your roof and hang shingles.

• 28:42Speaker 04

  But until that day comes with high degree of reliability, you still need people to do that and build fences and dig holes and

• 28:51Speaker 00

  You did see robots in Asia now running a half marathon for the first time without tripping.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  I saw a robot that literally tripped on the starting line.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  I saw that.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  I didn't see one run the run the marathon and to what end? Like, that's the other like, wow, your robot. I am looking forward to the day where I can send my robot to go fight Jesse's robot, though, because I'll be like, yo, listen, this Jesse Cramer dude, he says a bitch, isn't it about you? I'm just saying, whatever you want to do with that and like, set him to like, aggressive rage machine, like, you know, and then it just like shows up on Jesse's door one day. It's like, yo, you and me's got a problem. Jesse's like, I ain't got a problem. My robots been talking a lot of trash. So y'all can get after it. And there's like a big robot fight, you know, like rock them sock them robots, but real.

• 29:39Speaker 06

  Be careful what you wish for.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Wow, Doug. Oh, geez, got a vivid imagination.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Put a lot of thought into that.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  I have, actually.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  That's scary.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Be kind of fun.

• 29:49Speaker 06

  I like how when when OG thinks about fighting, he kind of reverts back. I mean, you said y'all more time in that two minutes than in the rest of your podcast appearances combined. Like you got full Tex in there, y'all.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  It was bad. And the rock them sock them motions. Paula, here's a here is here's one that'll make people groan. You ready? Because we're already two thirds of the way there. Customer service reps, the few that are left, are they replaced?

• 30:16Speaker 05

  I think that field will evolve. So you think about the Zappos model. What Zappos did with customer service reps was they they created a new category where people would call into Zappos and get connection, like real human connection. Like Zappos, Tony Hsieh wrote about this in his book, Delivering Happiness, which I strongly recommend.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  Great book.

• 30:38Speaker 05

  Great book. Zappos would celebrate the customer service rep who would spend eight hours on the phone with somebody for no other reason than it was clear that that person was lonely and just wanted someone to talk to. And so they would just chit chat. And like any other company would have called that quote unquote wasteful. But Zappos actively celebrated it. And that became part of what made Zappos so unique and made it stand out. It was a differentiating factor in a crowded field. Anyone can sell shoes on the internet, but not everyone can make you feel like, if you're lonely, just give us a call.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  That's so interesting. Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so I think that that type of evolution in customer service, okay, in a world where the boilerplate template is automation and AI, how do we as a company differentiate ourselves so that when you buy hand sanitizer or when you buy cottage cheese, you think of us first?

• 31:34Speaker 00

  We talked about this on a recording that our stackers are going to hear next week, that, so you're saying, Paula, we win by going back to 1973, when you would call, when you would call a place, and there were no robots, by going back there, we're good. But very seriously, Capital One's model, which is really interesting to me, is that if someone has one of their higher end credit cards, and they have a very high credit score, they send those people to people. If someone has a lower credit score and has had difficulties with credit cards, and maybe as one of their beginner credit cards, they do not send them to real people. Now, it isn't cost cutting why they do that. It's because somebody with a lower credit score has said, I might be a little ashamed of the question I'm going

• 32:19Speaker 00

  to ask. I don't want to be in front of a real person. I'd much rather talk to the machine. It's easier for me to do business with Capital One and take care of my credit issues if I talk to a machine. People with higher credit scores want to talk to a person. They don't want to talk to a machine because their their socially acceptable question is going to be much better. So it's pretty wild, Paula, to see kind of what you're talking about on the Zappos end with Capital One.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  Wow, that's a great example of like, deep customer research, leading to differentiation. You know, and I think that's a big portion of how brands are going to compete. AI enables it such that there's now just a richer tapestry of ways that any company can differentiate their brand. And so I think we'll, we'll start to see a lot of creativity flourish in every domain of running a business.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  The reason I talked about running, speaking of running, a half marathon, it had nothing to do, OG, with running a half marathon. It was that the dexterity that it takes to work on a roof, you were talking about shingling a roof, is quickly, those concerns are quickly changing. I saw the same one where the, the robot biffed right at the beginning of the half marathon, but one actually finished the half marathon last year. And think about all the changes in roads and the changes in, you know, what's going on, Doug?

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Well, you guys are talking about, I'm thinking about OG's and Jesse's smackdown that's inevitable. And I actually just saw a video of two robots in a ring, fighting. And they were doing these unbelievable, like, spin moves. And one's head, just like OG's talking about rock'em sock'em robot, one of the heads actually fell off and was dangling by the wires. It continued fighting as though that never happened. It was terrifying. And also pretty badass.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  That's what I'm talking about. It was like, like the head swinging and it's still, it's like one handed, he was like putting it back on.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Exactly what happened. It was crazy.

• 34:18Speaker 05

  Am I the only person on this roundtable who's not watching robot videos?

• 34:22Speaker 00

  I think that's two of us. Cause this is all new to me. I'm watching Capital One customer service videos, which is not much, not much better. All right. Coming up in the second half, we talked about some of what the threats are and hopefully allayed some fears. Although, if you go back and listen to this wonderful, but very scary interview, he still thinks there's a 70% chance we go extinct. And he goes into why robots are going to take over the world. Let's say that it happens slightly. You do take a pay cut, 30%. Pay cut. How do you get

• 34:54Speaker 05

  Be slightly extinct?

• 34:55Speaker 00

  We go slightly extinct. Let's say that you go partly extinct. Don't know how that happens. But let's say you take a pay cut because your job is ubiquitous and you're competing with robots. Or let's say that they don't need you like they used to need you because some of the thought that went into your job has been marginalized. I don't know. Are these things to think about, you know, in a SWAT analysis, right? What is T for? T is for threat. And if you do a SWAT analysis, should we pay attention to the threats? And then on a financial side, let's finally get to the part that we are very good at. Not predicting technology changes, but about money. We're going to talk about all the things that maybe you can do to protect yourself, whether this happens or some other thing comes along.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  If AI continues and everything goes great, well, I think you guys will all have some moves that can help us anyway. All right. At that waypoint of every Friday stacky Benjamin show, we have this fantastic year long. Talk about robots fighting. No robots here. We are fisticuffs, hand to hand combat when it comes to trivia. And man, do we have quite a barn burner going on, Doug. It didn't look like this. It looked like it was over about six weeks ago. And OG was just staring at this record of 18 wins in a year and counting down the moments till he passes it. But that's no longer the case. Don't get me wrong. He could, he can still get the record, but it's tightened.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, he was like the Tiger Woods of our trivia competition. Everybody just assumed he was going to blow past Jack Nicklaus and win every major for every year for the next 40 years. And he came to a screeching halt and it appears OG may have as well. Because while OG is sitting at a very respectable nine wins so far already this year. Jesse's sitting right behind him, or excuse me, Jesse's robot is sitting right behind him at eight. And Paula's knocking on the ring saying, I want in too. She's got five wins. So it is a tight race right now.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yep. But Paula gets to six. We are, we're looking at, we could have a change before the end of summer, which would be amazing.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  Sorry. What are the current scores? I've been absent a little bit.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  No, I didn't. I seriously, I wasn't paying attention.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Like in the last two minutes.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Jesse has eight.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Eight.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  And Paula has five.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  985. Yeah. All right. Those are the stakes, OG. Let's talk about what we're doing with those stakes. We're going to have a question. Doug?

• 37:19Speaker 03

  Here's our question this week. Joe, hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Today marks the anniversary of England finally getting rid of one of the weirdest taxes in history. For more than 150 years, they taxed people based on how many windows their house had. Since glass was really expensive, the more windows you had, the Richard, they, they richer, they Richard?

• 37:43Speaker 00

  I think it's they be Richard. What does Richard have to do with it?

• 37:48Speaker 03

  The richer, King Richard figured you were. People hated this tax so much, they'd actually brick over perfectly good windows just to avoid paying it. Others painted fake windows onto the sides of their building so that they could actually look richer. Can you imagine? You call up your contractor, "Yeah, I want to cover up this beautiful bay window with your finest red blocky things." And the contractor's like, "Sir, that's going to make your house like dark and damp and you'll probably get exposed to the vapors." And you're like, "Sure, but it's going to save me 12 quid in taxes next year. Get on with it." Under England's old tax code, our basement would have been considered a studio

• 38:29Speaker 03

  apartment with optional daylight. We're still not even sure if the dryer vent counts as a window or just our primary source of oxygen. Honestly, I don't know why people wanted all those windows anyways. They're just more stuff to wash. Plus, every time somebody says, "Look at this beautiful natural light," what I hear is, "Awesome. Now people will know I only dust when the US wins the World Cup." So here's today's trivia question. On average, how many windows are installed in a newly built, single-family home in the United States? I'll be back right after I ask Joe's mom if we can crack the door at the top of the stairs for more than 20 minutes a day.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Wow. I didn't even know there was going to be a question, Doug. I thought we were just getting this soliloquy about window, window maintenance. Good stuff. OG, average American home built today. How many windows?

• 39:24Speaker 04

  It's gonna take me a while to think about. I just gotta think of how many windows are in my house, so.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  And then subtract.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  Obviously.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Oh, Jesus, 87.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  I just noticed that I failed to mention when this tax was abolished. I said it was abolished on this day in history, but I did not say this day in 1851, the tax started in 1696 and was abolished in 1851.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  But it is important to your answer about how many windows a new modern construction house today. You gotta know when it was abolished to get that right.

• 40:00Speaker 06

  Did the tax have a name, Doug? Was it the, did it have a specific name?

• 40:06Speaker 03

  It may have. I, my research did not surface that answer.

• 40:11Speaker 06

  Got it. It's good research.

• 40:13Speaker 05

  It seems like the obvious workaround would be to just have a home with one very large window.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  And that's it.

• 40:18Speaker 05

  Right? If, if, if, I mean, in, in that tax structure.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  1696, they weren't making one really large window.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  I do know that for our.

• 40:28Speaker 05

  They could have innovated that.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  See, they, they don't know all the great things. This guy didn't even talk about that in Diary of a CEO. Didn't talk about that at all. This is why, by the way, in a lot of the old towns, I found out that in Europe, why the buildings have such little frontage, but they're really long and narrow. So, cause you could build it as deep as you wanted, not pay more tax. It was all the frontage.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Frontage. OG, you got an answer for us yet?

• 40:55Speaker 04

  I just listened to you guys chat.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  We don't know.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  So, um, this is the average, just to clarify the question then, this is the average number of windows installed in the average new build in America.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Yes. What year is this data based?

• 41:14Speaker 03

  It's current.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  Current. Okay.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Yesterday.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  And would you consider a door a window or, or is the glass on the door considered a window?

• 41:25Speaker 03

  I'm sir, sorry, sir. You've exceeded your allotted question.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  What about like the dormer things? Those would be considered windows, even though they are not.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  With your answer.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  Usable.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  I'm gonna take the number in my house and divide it by two and add a few. And I'm gonna say that the number is.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Lucky number 21. 21. Jesse, what are you gonna do with that?

• 41:55Speaker 06

  I'm going definitely higher than that. I'm counting a lot of small things as windows, though, because as far as I know, they'd be windows. So I'm gonna say 44.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Forty-four windows. Paula Pant, how many windows are there in a Manhattan apartment?

• 42:19Speaker 03

  Negative three.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  Oh, no. All right. So I'm trying to think of the size of a new construction, the size of new construction typically, I'm gonna guess maybe 2,500 square feet. Hold on, is this, this is for all single-family homes? Detached, single-family?

• 42:43Speaker 00

  Detached, single-family.

• 42:44Speaker 05

  Okay. If you have a series of three windows, but and that they're all next to each other, okay, never mind, I've answered my own question. It would be because of, okay, never mind. I'm going to go, let's see.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Talk about one of those French paint things that were fake, where the plastic came out, you washed the whole thing, then you put it back in.

• 43:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  That's one window, yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 05

  OG, what was your answer? You said 21? I'm gonna go 22.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  22. Goes for the middle. All right, we got OG at 21, we got Paula 22, Jesse 44. Is Paula gonna tighten the race? Is Jesse gonna tie for first? Is OG gonna get back on the march toward the overall win and, and the record? We're gonna find out. We'll be right back. Well, you may know that chaos is the name of the game here in mom's basement, what with guests coming in and out, Cooper the cat getting in the way, Doug being, well, being Doug. The holidays make it even worse because it's all about food and big meals. And the problem is prepping for those takes forever. But what about those between meals, right? The meals between those huge, huge, huge bookends? Well, that's where fact.

• 43:58Speaker 00

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• 44:43Speaker 00

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• 45:28Speaker 00

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• 46:13Speaker 00

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• 46:45Speaker 00

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• 48:44Speaker 00

  OG kicked us off with 21. Everybody else went higher. How you feeling?

• 48:49Speaker 04

  I feel pretty good. I think everyone overestimates the number of windows that are in, at the average house. You guys almost like live in like really fancy houses.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Jesse, your house is very fancy, but that's just because you live there. How are you feeling about the answer of 44?

• 49:06Speaker 06

  OG lives in a dungeon. He lives in a robot dungeon. Let's be honest. He lives in a robot dungeon. It's dark. He needs to focus on his, you know, electronics, his soldering. He's got a welding mask on. A welding mask counts as a window, OG. I don't know if you knew that. I like my chances. Don't know for sure, but I like my range. Cause what? So anything above 32, 33?

• 49:32Speaker 00

  22 to 44. So splits that 33 up.

• 49:36Speaker 06

  I like, you know, I've got a shot.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Which means Paula, you got 22 to 32 and a half. You're looking good.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I have a narrow band, but I think I have a reasonable band, you know? So that, yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  A narrow band, but the best band.

• 49:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Absolutely. We're going to find out if it's the best band. Doug, who's taking home the win?

• 50:02Speaker 03

  Well, hey there stackers. I'm certified home inspector and guy who spent most of his childhood staring through a glass blocked basement window, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. You remember those things eight feet off the floor, eight inches tall and apparently designed to make moving people look like you were tripping balls? Maybe those old English homeowners were on to something though. Turns out Joe's mom isn't cheap. She's just a master level tax strategist. Brick up enough windows and eventually you stop worrying about taxes, fresh air and the future. Before the break, I asked you how many windows are installed on average on a newly built single family home in the United States? Well?

• 50:44Speaker 03

  The correct answer was 32 fewer than what Jesse guessed, 10 fewer than what Paula guessed, and just nine fewer than what OG guessed, because the correct answer is 12 windows making OG a winner. See ya.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  It's just been a long time since OG's been in the winner's circle.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  It has been.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Been a long, long time.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  I think there's some irony here on this, given our discussion today, and I need to chat about this a minute. I chose to use AI to help me derive this question. It gave me the wrong answer.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  It did, because I said, "That sounds like a lot of windows," so I went and looked it up.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Joe caught it.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  It was 12.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  It originally told me that the average house has 34 windows, so I went with that.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Come on.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  And by the...

• 51:37Speaker 00

  That sounds like a great answer.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  I know. And by the way, Paula, what it did get correct was that the average square footage of a single-family detached home in the US is 2,405 square feet. So you were pretty close with your average square footage. But Joe thought 34 sounds like way too many. You're probably wrong. So right before we aired, I went and validated it. And while there isn't any hard data, the National Association of Home Builders, NAHB, says between 8 and 15 windows for a 2,500-square-foot house. So we kind of went right in the middle for the purposes of our show, and we used 12 as the number. Nonetheless, all of that gets you to OG wins today, but it's here we are talking about,

• 52:23Speaker 03

  "Will AI take all of our jobs?" Not yet, because it couldn't figure this one out.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Didn't do it today. Yeah, Jesse looks like he wants to file protest.

• 52:33Speaker 06

  I just, you know, eight windows in a new house seems... Or I guess the answer we went with was 12?

• 52:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:41Speaker 06

  Right?

• 52:42Speaker 03

  The range from the NAHB was between 8 and 15, and we sort of picked the middle.

• 52:46Speaker 06

  You could pick the middle. It seems very low to me. It seems very low, but what do I know?

• 52:52Speaker 03

  Windows are expensive.

• 52:53Speaker 06

  People who live in glass houses.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  Well, here's what you do, Jesse. If you're, if you're angry that OG won, take your robot, send it over to his house.

• 53:04Speaker 06

  My robot said 34, so did Doug's.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Yes. Let's, let's get back to our AI robot discussion and Jesse, we'll stick with you. Sun Tzu, the best battle is the one that's never fought, right? You prepare ahead of time, you don't gotta worry about the battle. Daniel's timeline is that, hey, by 2027, all this stuff he thought was 2032 is gonna happen. Everything's moving faster than expected. Even if that doesn't happen, should you still prepare just in case?

• 53:35Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, well, it depends on, I guess, what we mean by prepare. But I think preparing for change is, in general, just a good practice in your life. But, but what does that really mean here? I mean, or what am I trying to do? It's like, I'm trying to learn these tools and I'm trying to implement them into my day to day work to make myself more efficient and just to try to understand that if it becomes ubiquitous, how I can be kind of ahead of the curve. I think that kind of preparation is useful. That said, I was thinking in the preparation for this interview, I mean, one hard part of being a modern human, a member of society, is like finding this balance between you don't want to necessarily feel like you're burying your head in the sand and like ignoring these kind of predictions.

• 54:17Speaker 06

  But at the same time, if you take every prediction like this to heart, I think it's just a recipe for an immense amount of stress and anxiety and existential dread. So I don't really know how to find the balance there, but I'm trying to, I'm doing my best where I don't want to just deny the, the existence of AI. But at the same time, if I truly took to heart that I was gonna lose my job in the next couple of years, and, and what's the one thing he said in the intro? Like, I was taking notes. He talked about like his kids, they chose not to have children because...

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Don't even enter the workforce, because, because they would never have a job. They would never be able to do anything in the workforce. They wouldn't have any.

• 54:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Apparently, he associates work with meaning.

• 55:00Speaker 06

  There's a little bit of, um, I mean, there's a lot of existential dread, I feel like in the way he's speaking and I don't know, it sounds kind of, it's a bit of a bummer to take that to heart. So finding the balance. Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  That is a question. I mean, you could, you could just sit around and be bummed all day, or you could do something about it. I like where Jesse's going, OG, learn the tools, you know, don't just sit around and worry about AI, like begin using AI and see how the tools work. How else do you get prepared if with the threat that your job might change or your job might be gone?

• 55:30Speaker 04

  I mean, isn't this true that your job might change or be gone regardless of what circumstances you find yourself in? So.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  So do it anyway.

• 55:37Speaker 04

  I don't know if you guys know this or not, but a couple of weeks ago I did this bike race in Colorado.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Doug, let the record show, it only took him 43 minutes.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Remarkable.

• 55:49Speaker 06

  I got this cool medal and everything.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  Could have outsourced it to your robot. We can't believe you finished.

• 55:56Speaker 04

  It's slightly under 15 hours, too.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  We didn't think we'd need a medal for you.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  Sir, the, the finish line closed. We just, we met you out on the course and we just wanted to go home.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Remember Joe, we talked about the Barclay marathons, that race where

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  They always let one person in that they are sure is not going to be able to finish. And everybody's wondering, are they the one?

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Right. You think OG was the one?

• 56:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. If you don't know if you're, who the sucker is at the poker table.

• 56:26Speaker 04

  But one of the guys that I was there with, I was talking to Lisa about, you know, training and, you know, that sort of thing. And she says, oh, has he been, has he been training too? And I said, no, this is what he does for his life. He runs ultra marathons and does century bike rides and like, that's his normal weekly activity. So he's not training for it. He just lives it. And I think that's probably a good way to think about all this stuff, too. It's like, if you're always planning for.

• 57:03Speaker 04

  Your future and thinking about the things that can go right and occasionally thinking about the things that might not go so right, then nothing comes as a surprise to you. It's when it's when you don't do any of those things that you have no flexibility and you have no sort of additional way to to cope, you know, with whatever happens because there's probably a greater likelihood that you lose your job because you're sick or hurt in an accident, you know, and there's some chance that you get hit by a bus and you don't wake up. Like, those are also real probabilities. We spend almost no time thinking about that. And instead, we think about like, which, you know, Tesla robot is going to be the strongest

• 57:47Speaker 04

  and fastest to get to Jesse's 44 window house and just start throwing rocks around like crazy. Bet you wish they were bricked up now, Jesse.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Lower Texas and not worried about the snow getting in. Paula, he mentioned the F word, flexibility. It seems to me like prepare for flexibility at the very least.

• 58:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, JL Collins has a great quote, flexibility is the only true security. He says that in the context of your spending in retirement, but that broader principle can be applied anywhere, including, of course, how you manage your career.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Well, it could be even around your money. I mean, flexibility with your money, lower your fixed expenses in case your income changes.

• 58:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yes, flexibility is the only true security. In the context of AI, alongside flexibility, you have the opportunity for immense creativity. So like what I would encourage anyone to do is so Anthropic has this thing called Skilljar, and it's just free training on how to use all of their super cool features. So it's totally free. All it requires is your time. Play around with that and then go to chat GPT and like learn how to build GPTs. And if you just do those two things, you are already, unless you're in like a technical field, for the average person who's in a non-technical field, if you just do those two things, you will already be way ahead of a lot of your peers.

• 59:17Speaker 05

  And that gives you like an edge because so much of what people need in the coming years is to have an edge over their competition in the job market.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  Somebody was telling me just a couple of weeks ago, something that I saw when I took, a couple of years ago, I took masterclass, had a, just a like basics of AI. There was a guy from Google and a woman who is a social media woman, teaching people how to use AI. But the Google guy talked about the jagged edge, about what things it's good at and what things AI is not good at. And learning that, the gentleman I was talking to last week was talking about the more he knew about that jagged edge, what was good at, what it wasn't good at, and could kind of follow that, the, the less threatening it seemed and much more power he felt over it, which I think is, Jesse, what you were talking about, using the tools. But let's talk about using the tools, Jesse, because let's say I'm 58 years old, I want to retire when I'm 62.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  There's all this doom and gloom about my career, but four years, man, do I need to learn this if I've only got four years to go? Or do you think they'll still help me during retirement too?

• 1:00:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, hmm, there's a good question. I, I kind of changed my answer as I thought about it for 10 seconds, because at first I was going to say, no, you don't really need to learn it. Like, you're close enough to retirement that it probably doesn't matter. But then I thought about, let's think about today's 80-year-old or 85-year-old, who, the World Wide Web was 1993, right? So today's 80-year-old would have been in their late, what, late 40s in 1993? Am I thinking about that? Is that math right? Someone check that math? I think that's right. Sounds good. Would that person have benefited from learning the internet even though they were later in their career? Like, I think the answer is yes. Or like, learning how to use a personal computer, even though they were later in the career, as personal computing became kind of ubiquitous in the 90s and 2000s, like, I think the answer is yes.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Jesse, I know, I mean, I know at least- In a single case scenario, my mother in law told me before she died, she felt more and more isolated during her later years because she never learned how to use email and she didn't text. And we would get together at Thanksgiving and we'd talk about the hilarious videos we were sharing with each other online about the email stuff that we were chatting about in an email thread or the letters people wrote to us and she didn't get. And she said she felt increasingly isolated. She should have learned it.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  Jesse, I mean, I can speak from direct. I'm glad you used that example and even called out those years because I can speak from direct experience that I was early in my career in leading IT departments in 94, 95, just as the internet was really coming on. It was incredibly challenging. Everybody was terrified because exactly for the all of the same reasons, the same bullet points of risks that people are talking about now with AI, we were talking about in the IT field as the internet was coming on. And we talk about should a 40 year old ish person have retrained? The answer was 100% yes. And we knew it then. But one thing that has happened,

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  at least over the course of those last 35 plus years, is that there are always some legacy systems or legacy technologies that people don't want to give up, either because it's where their comfort zone is, or because the cost and pain of moving off of those things is really high. And so you need some people to sit, stay back and keep making buggy whips and wagon wheels. Are you going to be the lucky person that gets all of a sudden then your salary skyrockets? Because you're one of the last few people who still know that old programming language, or know that old way to maintain that system. I mean, there are still subway systems in the US that run off of three and a half inch floppy disks.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  And so there are still people needed that know that old technology, but banking on you being the person that gets relied upon is very, very risky. So I would absolutely even late career, look into re-skilling yourself.

• 1:03:18Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, I just think about, and I'll pass the baton after this. It's Thanksgiving 2050. Today's 58 year old is then going to be 82 and their grandkids are telling stories about sending their fighting robots over to each other's house. And you're sitting there.

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  But I don't have a robot.

• 1:03:36Speaker 06

  Your mouth is full of stuffing.

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  I want a robot.

• 1:03:38Speaker 06

  You're trying to think, you're thinking about pumpkin pie. Right. You don't have a fighting robot. You wouldn't even know where to start with a fighting robot. Meanwhile, OG's fighting robot is literally beating you at the Thanksgiving table. Is that the world we want?

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:53Speaker 06

  I rest my case.

• 1:03:54Speaker 03

  Sounds incredible.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  I could see there's some stacker out there who just got motivated, Jesse, by the fact that they could keep up with OG's robot. Like, I don't care about the rest of this. I'm going to keep up with OG's robot. OG, we've said-

• 1:04:05Speaker 04

  Did you guys ever play like Egg Olympics? Do you know what that is?

• 1:04:08Speaker 06

  Egg? Like EGG?

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  The one where you're trying to drop eggs from further and further away?

• 1:04:13Speaker 04

  No. No. There's probably a different name for it, but it's like, you know, let's say you're going to make some scrambled eggs for breakfast. So instead of cracking the eggs on the counter, you crack them against one another. And one is always stronger than the other. And so the winner keeps going. And so you always keep this winner going.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  Like at some point in time, you're like, well, this thing's been in my fridge for like, you know, like three weeks and hasn't lost yet.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Cause this is the jam.

• 1:04:41Speaker 04

  This is the master. Yeah. So that would be like my robot. Like I would just like, we could fight and it'd be like a bracket and then be like the biggest robot keeps going. So.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Again, the amount of thought he's given to this Doug is creepy. We talk about multiple income streams, OG, we've talked about on the show before, having money come from different ways.

• 1:05:01Speaker 04

  Robots.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Just, well, here's the point with AI, is it better time than ever to have multiple income streams coming in?

• 1:05:09Speaker 04

  I mean, again, this goes back to my conversation a few minutes ago about like, you don't have to get ready if you're always ready. Yes, you should have multiple streams of income. Why, why do you need to wait until, you know, until your job's about to be eliminated before you go, oh, I should probably frigging think about this. Like, oh crap, retirement's around the corner, I should probably start saving money. Yes, you should be doing that right now. You should be exploring other things that you can be doing. It doesn't mean you have to spend 100 hours a week working, but this should just be part of your life. You should be thinking about this stuff a lot. Preparation favors the prepared, you know, you could have all these like different analogies.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  I guarantee Paula spends a lot of time just like hanging around on Zillow, right? You're just always looking because you just, you know, you've got a sense of like what the market is in the area that you like to shop in. And every so often something pops up and you go, whoa, that's a good deal. And then you look in and you know, you have some interest around it, you decide what you want to do with it and you move on. So, yes, you should be doing that stuff all the time.

• 1:06:18Speaker 03

  You know, it occurs to me, OG and Paula, that people listening probably hate these kinds of answers. You should always be flexible or you know, if you're always ready, then, then you'll be ready.

• 1:06:28Speaker 04

  People hate Doug, it's like when people don't button their shirts all the way up and they're not tan. And I got the chest hair hanging out, just doesn't, I was thinking just out loud, like things that people don't like, but go on, you tell us what else people don't like.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  Didn't say hairs with an S, he said hair.

• 1:06:45Speaker 03

  So I think people get frustrated when they hear answers like this because we're not able to give specifics about well, if okay, if this current job or career that you have now isn't going to withstand the changes into AI, well, what should you do? We don't know, but we didn't know when we chose our current careers, right? And none of us sitting here thought we would be here today 35 years ago when we were just starting out in the workforce. When I started, I thought I was going to be a tech writer, got me into the IT world, quickly into project management, quickly, then I just sort of worked through IT leadership. I had no idea I was going to do that, that that was going to happen. So you don't have to know, you don't have to pick the one thing that is going to be your ticket out of here

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  and be able to avoid the, you know, the changes that AI brings, but you got to do something. You need to sort of pick a different path and be flexible, as, as Paula said earlier.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  I love the idea of just staying on top of it. Yeah. What's hot in your career? Where's your career evolving? I remember many times in my career that sometimes people made themselves a dinosaur because they, they wouldn't change. Like, oh, I don't need that new thing. And guess what? Then later on, the clients didn't need you. Paula, last thing, we had a whole episode on AI, Diary of a CEO, whole episode. Well, he's had a few episodes on AI, right? Yeah. You've done AI on episodes. Jesse, I'm sure you've done AI episodes. More, more, more. This is what we're talking about. Is it time to add the AI whatever fund to your portfolio?

• 1:08:20Speaker 05

  You mean add a?

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know how there's sector funds?

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  Right. Sector fund for AI. My first inclination is I would want to know what's inside of that fund because are we talking about?

• 1:08:36Speaker 05

  You know, when they eventually IPO, uh, big public facing companies like Anthropic or OpenAI, or are we talking about the cluster of infrastructure, the data centers, the suppliers who, who make the parts that go into that?

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Lumen with the fiber optics between.

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  Yeah. Or just, or the concrete companies, the cement companies, the flooring company. Like, you know what I mean? Like, are we talking about the materials and parts for all of the infrastructure behind it? Are we talking about the semiconductors? Obviously, people often think about the very forward looking things, but then there's, number one, there's all of the backend infrastructure. And then, number two, every industry is augmented by AI. And, and OG is correct in that it has not yet shown profitability, but we are in such early days where-

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Or, and even more importantly, what he said was productivity gains.

• 1:09:33Speaker 05

  Right. Yes. Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 05

  Exactly. But we're also still in the early days where everyone is like token maxing and everyone's just sort of like, we're basically all preschoolers who have been handed some silly putty and trying to figure out what we can build with the silly putty. That's the stage of AI that, that we are all in, in our industries right now. And so, cool, when you're on the playground and you're figuring things out, yeah, you might not be productive because you're still in the playground phase. But as AI evolves and as our skills with AI evolved, as we become better at prompting, as we become better at building out agentic AI models, you know, as we become like more

• 1:10:17Speaker 05

  efficient users and directors and orchestrators.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  I'm hearing no.

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

  Well, I think my position is that every industry is an AI industry.

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  Which means that no-

• 1:10:28Speaker 05

  Or soon it will be.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Don't buy the sector. Yeah.

• 1:10:31Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't know. Um, it's not a no, it's not a yes. It's a, I'm not even sure what is included in the term sector.

• 1:10:41Speaker 00

  Okay. Jesse, buy the sector?

• 1:10:43Speaker 06

  Already own it. Efficient markets indexing. I mean, my, you could ask me any question about any sector and at any price, and my answer would always echo this idea of the price reflects the value that the market sees in the future earnings of that sector already. And even if AI, you know, I look at the, what is it? The hyperscalers and the people who are building the pickaxes, as it were, for AI. And, you know, a lot of these companies, there's one here in upstate New York. Actually, there's two with upstate New York connections, one being Corning, another being Micron, that if you look up at Corning Inc. or you look at Micron and you look at their charts over the last two or three years, these stocks have gone bananas. So to some extent,

• 1:11:24Speaker 06

  it's like, do I invest in the sector? The idea is that other investors have already seen the future potential earnings from this sector. And I don't know if there's more juice left to squeeze there or not. I simply don't know. I'm not an expert in that kind of field, but I do own everything.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  Talk about pivoting, by the way. You know, we talked about staying up on things and pivoting and going where, look at Corning. We talked a few, a couple of weeks ago, Doug, about Nintendo. Nintendo used to be like a playing card company.

• 1:11:53Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  But just these companies that change to go where the ball is. I mean, how much Corning Cookware do I own? Right? And how it's an AI company. You're like, wow. Oh gee, buy the sector?

• 1:12:06Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:12:08Speaker 04

  I already said this before, but like, there's no reason to, you know, try to decipher which one of the, you know, 10,000 different companies are going to be the ones that are successful. It's for all the reasons that Paul was talking about, it's still in its infancy. Everybody's still throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. It's just easier to own every company in the world and just see what happens.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  I think it's a great place to leave it. Thank you, guys, for a great discussion. We'll link to, if you want more doom and gloom, I'll link to the Stephen Bartlett episode.

• 1:12:41Speaker 04

  I would say there's another great AI quick podcast about 15 or 45 minutes. Tony Robbins just interviewed Ray Kurzweil a couple of weeks ago. It was on his feed and he has some equally intriguing thoughts about the future of AI.

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Interesting. We'll also link to that. Let's find out what all of you are doing this fine weekend. Oh gee, you out on the bicycle in the Texas humidity?

• 1:13:03Speaker 04

  Nope, I am going to Michigan, so I will see you all later.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  Fantastic. You want to get closer to the fires?

• 1:13:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was pretty smoky in Colorado when I was there, too, but nothing like what they're getting up north, unfortunately.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. Paula, you've covered AI. You have an episode of yours that we should listen to for more AI discussion?

• 1:13:24Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Let's see, there have been a few here. Go to Jesse and then come back to me while I look up.

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  I will. Jesse, you want a moment to pull up yours, too?

• 1:13:34Speaker 06

  No, no, I'm good. I'm good. And Doug, really good question. Micron, you said, is in Boise, Idaho. They are building one of the largest chip manufacturing facilities in the USA outside of Syracuse. So that's, that's the upstate New York connection. But as for stuff coming up on the podcast, let me pull up, okay, this past Wednesday, we published what your brokerage statement doesn't tell you. And then on August 5th, we are publishing AMA number 19 and we're getting ready for episode 150 soon, which will be a bit of a personal AMA. So we've got some fun ones in the hopper.

• 1:14:08Speaker 00

  But specifically, I know that you were pulling all that stuff up, so you might not have heard my question. AI specific episodes that you've done?

• 1:14:17Speaker 06

  None.

• 1:14:18Speaker 00

  None?

• 1:14:19Speaker 06

  None. I don't think I have one. I'm looking, I'm looking here.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  All right. Well, we'll go to Paula and we'll come back and you can say yes or no.

• 1:14:26Speaker 06

  Then come back to me.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Paula, give us some AI.

• 1:14:29Speaker 05

  All right. So episode 693, you can go to affordanything.com/episode693 to access it. It is an interview with Dr. Ben Zweig. He is the chief economist at Revelio Labs, and he studies the workforce, actually. His thesis is that the real question is not whether AI will replace your job, but rather which tasks within your job will be automated and what new opportunities that that creates. He discusses jobs not as indivisible units that either exist or don't exist, but rather bundles of tasks that are constantly evolving. He talks about how ATMs, actually the development of the ATM,

• 1:15:09Speaker 05

  caused more bank teller jobs to grow because branches became cheaper to operate, and it freed up tellers to do higher value relationship work. So yeah, we cover a lot of that. So that's episode 693.

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  693.

• 1:15:23Speaker 05

  affordanything.com/episode693.

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  We'll put that in the show notes as well, stackers. Jesse, did you find one?

• 1:15:32Speaker 06

  I don't have any.

• 1:15:33Speaker 00

  It's all AI all the time.

• 1:15:34Speaker 06

  I don't have any dedicated to AI.

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  It's all he talks about is AI. Personal finance for long-term investors. Thank you, by the way, everybody, for the great notes on yesterday's special episode about pricing insurance. Next week, by the way, our last week in July, we are prepping for, everybody's heard of Financial Literacy Month. We're going to have Financial Action Month. So we're doing five episodes next week to get you ready for that. We've got a bingo sheet. It's going to be a lot of fun. The fun starts on Wednesday, though, but five days of stacking Benjamins. Pinch yourself. That's coming up next week. What's coming up right now is Doug is going to tell us, what are the three things we should learn from today's episode?

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  Well, Joe first takes some advice from OG and history. Anytime us humans have come up with a significant advancement, it's really just raise the standards for what value add means. We'll adapt and find a better use for our time. Second, don't forget what Paula said when she quoted J.L. Collins. Flexibility is the only true security. Rather than digging your heels in on your current skill set, simply be ready and willing to learn.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  That's why I stretch out every day, Doug, is to stay flexible. But anyway.

• 1:16:42Speaker 03

  Didn't like that image. But the big lesson? History shows people will do almost anything to get out of paying taxes, which must explain why Joe's mom keeps trying to brick over the door to the basement.

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  Thanks to Jesse Cramer for joining us today. Be sure to check out his burgeoning podcast, It's Filthy: Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors. We'll also include links in our show notes at stackingbenjamins.com. Thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast, "Afford Anything," wherever you listen to the finest podcasts. And finally, thanks to OG for joining us. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.com OG for his calendar.

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  This show is the property of SP Podcast LLC, copyright 2026, and is created by Joe Saul Sehhi. You'll find out about our awesome team at stackingbenjamins.com, along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and we'll see you next time, back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  Maybe it's time we talked. Kiplinger calls it "The Trillion Dollar Talk," a conversation about inheritance, estate planning, wills, and the questions families should be asking before those decisions become urgent. Because knowing what your family wants and having a plan for it can be one of the most important financial conversations you will ever have. Ready to start yours? Visit kiplinger.com to learn more about The Trillion Dollar Talk and what this historic wealth transfer could mean for your family.